23 | Who is Bo Dukes?
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An urban Venus season one will come to an end with episode twenty four on monday, july thirty first. It's been truly amazing journey, to say the least. I've talked to countless people in connection that terrible in, says the case, and i've built close relationship with people that will last a lifetime.

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Forty and.

Under the rest we can to and dead call syria bottle .

down to the person of terrible in and charging brian do with .

the murder a tired Green state .

from tinder, foot, T, V and industries atlantic. This is up and vanished. The investigation of terrible in that i'm your host pain lenzing in today's episode, we're going to further analyze the twitter conversation between both dukes and a woman are calling Sally before we dive in.

If you haven't listened to last week case seven and episode, you need to we'll be reproducing several important statements that bodo ks. Made during this online communication. After receiving this transcript, I went through a line by line voto volts, a lot of detail.

But how much of what he said are we to believe as truth? And how does but duke statements here a line with all the other stories we ve heard from his girlfriend brook? Does that all match up? I spoke IT linked about this with a renounce psychologist from australia named dr. Or thomson. SHE gave me hear take on at all.

Part of my background is i've worked in the jail and I worked in a forensic unit in the psychiatric hospital in the state, and i've also worked in the regular jails here back in australia. And it's certainly not uncommon for women to find me in in prisoner with the criminal history. Incredibly interesting.

Well, women, I think, in general, see potentially men and they sort of think, well, if I really love you and I look after you, I can get you add of this whole I can help no men that broken wing. So it's not uncommon for women strike up um friendships with men who are in jail or have been in jellous, i'm sure you would know. And so I sort of detected some of that flavor there because it's certainly was very floy a lot of the time. And I also thought um although he eluted to medical training and talking about patients, I thought I don't really think she's a professional interviewer of any kind like he didn't drive me as a counselling type because SHE was very eager to talk about her self and I would have expected someone who had that sort of interviewing top background would have drawn in out more or try to but probably not injected new year is as much of themselves ruin that conversion.

Anyone who has something that loses, crucifying me, it's okay. Everyone wants to know why. Even me SHE deserves at least someone .

to watch.

Just glad I can be over for for everyone well.

when you say things like, well, of course everyone one wants to know what happens, even me it's it's kind of like that yeah well, this is really amazing, isn't that i'm so confused about this. I really wanted know the answer sort of IT so well, don't like everyone else, I don't know the answer. Gosh, what could I be? So he's kind of startling, implying he's on the outside looking in as well and it's confused as the rest of us.

That's interesting.

I keep asking why he's he's putting himself across as well. Of course, i'm one of the reasonable people in in all of this. I keep asking why or when he says i'm glad IT can be over for everyone no have have generous of him to say that um and then when he says i'm i'm so afraid of someone being arrested who is not responsible now these these are all very reasonable things to say that Normal, reasonable, caring concern citizens would say um and then he says things like now he deserves someone to watch while he was burning so it's it's all suddenly implying that, no, he's just a Normal person like the rest is not very concerned about all this .

is that somebody who is putting that out there to make their image look Better to the public knowing that they are not that good person or is that him convincing himself that he's a Better person?

Good question. I don't know enough about him to to be able to to answer that, but it's certainly a good distinction technique because now if you hear yourself saying these things often enough, you brain watch yourself into sort of believing IT like know lots of guys in jail really believe that they didn't.

Well, some guys in jail really believe that they didn't exactly do what they accused of doing is because theyve resorted so many times and they've talked about IT. No one of the problems with the legal system is if you're going to say play not guilty to something that you know you've done, you have to say over and over and over, I wasn't there. I don't know. It's c sett and after while you almost believe .

IT yeah if you get .

a speeding ticket or no fAiling to go, i'm stock at a stop sign and you replyed in your mind. After all, you can really very easily convince yourself that you, well, you didn't stop for a long time, but you did kind of pause. Now that's .

like stopping.

right? So I think that's that's part of of what probably almost anyone would do. But he is doing IT quite a lot now.

He's he is putting himself across his the concerned citizen. I think that puts him as a more reasonable person in his mind. His he is another one of the reasonable people observing this situation, not a player in the right, not not responsible.

And I thought the the final touch her, he just remembered yesterday he said the lords prayer O I thought that was masterful because of my impression. News is probably a religious town. No, that also makes import for the religious community.

Exactly the first thing I would say that boys, we know he tells fly now he's being convicted of fraud in the past. So that is about december ling online. So we already know he's a person who tells lies. So in that case, what I have learned in my work is if you're dealing with someone that you know repeatedly tells lies, you actually can't afford to believe anything that they say at all because you don't know in their line.

But what we generally do is we we think we're smart and we pick choose what we believe we go well, you know of this guy seems to tell us so that possibly isn't true but no wow, he said such such a OK go of me explore that and microsoft with someone like this is you actually cannot believe anything they say unless you independently verified. So everything that he said here um the reason I came up with things rather than comments on each individual things is because um we really can't believe any of the individual things he said. So not where we're limited in how much analysis we can do until we actually find that well, how can we prove some of these things and many of them, of course, we can. Yes, it's just he's says up. So the second one was he's played this up, this loyalty to run and his sense of his himself as a person who is loyal is just know, this is who I am and this is what he he promote.

I was protecting my friend and myself. Use my truck. You put her on my family's land. Well, he was my best friend. Yes, IT was wrong. And I knew that then we were friends, but I could have beat, as asked physically any day.

Now it's interesting that his loyalty to run apparently has come to a screening hold because, no, from what we think we know, he was the one who dog in. So he's loyalty. We last ted, a finite amount time though. No, he talked about protecting ing his friend, his best friend, supporting his friend. I knew he was wrong and I knew IT in.

But and and just by saying bot IT is kind of like when you put a but to excuse burning someone's body, that's a really big bus isn't it's kind of like, okay, so what could possibly follow that bus that we justify what you do and it's kind of like, well, you know um royal to his friend and then he try to bolter IT by saying and you know he could implicate me and that sounds really no just really lame what he said no IT will yes, but highly unlikely. But then he he's sort of implied that he was scared of ryan. But then at the end of the twitter conversation he was posted about how we know he wasn't scared, right? And he could request so what said any day so is playing that the loyalty card, but the loyalty doesn't doesn't seem to extend very fat, certain ly, not infinite.

And also, when we look at other kinds of loyalty, well, he was a very loyalty to the army. He defended them. And his loyalty to brook is is interesting because he harvest the relationships, spoke will surly while he is having floating conversations with the woman on twitter, and then he acknowledges he's been unfairly.

Then he sees bus again, but he was aware of IT. So so that kind of makes IT right because you know if he knew about us well, you know you know how these things are um so currently is loyalty only extends to male or friends, not to his partner, certainly not to his family. Now my uncle is this my uncle is dad, you know is controlling the family fortune.

A I don't care about them. They can get stuff. So he's very selective in his loyalty, so I don't have enough to say he's a psychopath. When I contacted you, that was sort of just my theory, because when I was hearing about what happened with power and you know what we stand to learn about what happened is the body um and you you were talking about ryan, I was saying to myself, so is the psychopath no, who is a psychopath in this and then of course all comes along and I thought, well, no, it's sounding like a bit of A A candidate there.

But the the way I talk to my clients, I don't generally talk about psychopath to them, that there are lots of women who are abusive relationship. I often talk about bullies or abuses, and I say to them that there are two important things to know about, bullies and abuses. And the first is, as far as the bull is concerned, people like furniture, and you simply move them around to suit your purpose.

And if you've got in a particular purpose for someone where you just put them and so you need them again and then you pull them out when you need them, use them, put them back again. So um for most of us that hard to come to turn to with because most of couldn't imagine trading people like that. The second thing I tell them is that in terms of communication, of course, is a huge amount of trust between two people talking to each other.

I, I tested the other person pretty much is telling me the truth as they know this. And I hope that they trust on telling them the truth, as I know IT, or to the best of my ability. But we are a bully or an abuser, a psychopath.

Words are kind of like a smoke spot laid out in front of sm. And they simply choose the words. To suit them for that particular purpose, to achieve effect that they want to achieve absolutely right now with that person.

And if circumstances change, literally in five minutes, that will say something completely different because they ve chosen differently from the small, big world. And if you try call the month, well, firstly, their attitudes, well, that was thin. This is now and secondly, well, I never said that and certainly you always confused and enforcement, they do as sort of a one a he's spin of you and they say, you concise me about that. What about that thing you did? So they are very good at completely changing.

The focus on example would be when both says that he was initially scared of ryan and afraid that ryan was going to pin IT on him, but then at the end of the conversation, he tells Sally that he would woop ryans ask, and he didn't. He was not scared of ryan at all. Two different points in time, two different parts of the conversation, both statements fitting the circumstances .

at the time, the intention, what he wanted to give. So one was ignored himself, not get around. And the other words, well, what could I do? Just following .

is action. Yep.

exactly. yep. And he would say, no.

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manipulations. Don't see what they do is lying for civil reasons. Firstly, because everyone does this.

And secondly, well, no, you're criticizing me. You just been picking picky. Come on.

yes.

So so this always a come back. And no matter what you do, you can never catch a manipulator out in the line because they are so good at quickly dissembling and coming up with another lie that the average person simply can't tip up.

yep.

And then as quickly as they can, they slipped around and they put the focus back on you. So you're then back tracking and defending yourself and you don't realize that, in fact, you know no longer talking about the issue that you are you talking about issue the counter issues that dave race, you I just today looked at the current photos of both.

So and you you look at the true of them and somewhere on the internet, they both side by side and it's kind of you look at eight of them and you think, okay, so if one is the later here, it's obviously not wrong and is IT right now. And if you if you look at wrong, you go. So this guy is intimidating.

This other guy, just a non verb signal set in you not missing with me. No, he's got that really hard, hard look about him that says, you know, i'm gona give you as good as I get. In fact, i'm going to pretty something where's ryans got a much softer look and most people don't take good sort of mug like shot. And so ryan doesn't look too .

bad in his right now.

This is a lot to be set for the non verb signals that someone sent. And of course, that doesn't necessarily say they're guilty or innocent, but IT certainly gives you a sense of how they project two people and know most people, when they having a mug shot taken, are not looking assertive. The body .

exactly. Hide confessed to many people. I don't think most of them believe me. And my ex used to use IT to black mail me.

Well, this is where I say that is, I think, saintly, but consistently introducing the idea that, you know, other people are just about is responsible because, too, you know, here are my confessing to people. I'm confessing along the place. I'm doing my best here to to get this out to to to do something about, know what what i've done.

And you know, no one acceptable. No one did anything about us. What's a guy to do.

right? He's clearly .

reducing his responsibility by sharing up with others. So he doesn't look nearly as bad because there are so many other bad people out there. Is gill course? No, he's kind of in what's .

wrong people right? Is that a common thing that people do when they try to justify what theyve done?

I think what he's doing is a bit more settled because generally, when we're trying to minimize our own wrong doings, we're tending to blame the other people that we interacted with around the world doing well. You said this today and that, I mean, you looked at, no, you looked at me sideways, so I hit you kindly.

So now this is, this is more special because he he is referring to people who weren't even there, you know, didn't take part in any of this. So this is far more of because really obvious if you say, well, you know, tera was rude to me and he saw at me and whatever well, no, that's the kind of of minimizing that we expect. But this is much more yep.

exactly.

It's mind boggling that no one said anything. So because people talk, I mean, I live in a smallish country town and all you have to do is going walk into a store and say hello to someone in the killing your way business with somebody else business, right? So and people know, as we know, love to share a secret.

So I simply can't believe that no one said anything unless there was something going on that he intimidated the people who knew into saying nothing. I can't just be they didn't be or they didn't want to know has to be more because you just don't want to have that secret yourself if you want to share IT with someone so they can go or come on that that wouldn't happen. Yeah, you're right.

Don't know. Don't go to the place. That would be ridiculous. I can't believe if he told lots of people that nobody told, unless there was an over a compelling reason, some kind of intimidation that made them not tell.

It's not something you think about a twenty one, okay? It's easy to be loyal when you don't understand how the world works.

He was portraying himself as was someone who was kind of you know passive and and short and not understanding how the world works. So on monday, I just didn't register. Well, that's really hard to believe when he's been told the night before, hey, is what I what this is what he's saying that this is what I did.

And then the next morning, someone's kind of confirming it's likely that that happened. IT didn't register. No, I didn't register if he said I was so frightened, was so shocked or whatever, but I did not just like he didn't put two and two together.

That's kind of what he's implying. Now he's just his ordinary guy, not that bride. No, just couple couldn't to please the information together.

yes. And then, of course, IT no, because his mind works kind of slow. IT took into wednesday before and know he kind of realized.

And then he was really late on wednesday. He couldn't really do anything more about IT. This was really right and he said, I didn't want to believe that.

Okay, well, that sounds really Normal. And then he's he's talking about burning the body is not something you think about IT twenty one. You don't understand the way the world works. Well, you know, he's a guy who obviously he is not got some kind of intellectual disability or something is a bit slow, but I mean, both would not want us to think of him as someone who is slow because he was about how he used to call out stupid people.

He had no tolerance for them and when he was talking on twitter he was not in the podcast part he was talking about how no um in native intellectual stimulation and you like not women not so he sought me doesn't think of itself as as a stupid person but that's kind of what he's implying with this all no time fly down for me no IT almost sounds is like well now the next form I running to run and I think of kind of checked in with him, which seems inconceivable for someone who's is a smart action oriented person so um more about he had no choice and he couldn't help himself on the message board so again, he's promoting this idea that now he's just his ordinary guy and know sometimes just things happened like he just had to get on the message board and defend himself but not I was so angry or I saw upset or I couldn't believe what people were saying it's kind like I couldn't help me no and he couldn't help himself with helping ran apparently because snow was scared ryan to have any choice and then not being added to help himself of course, happens when he's posting sleeping with lots of women, we couldn't control himself. But now he's trying really hard to stop his minimizing what he's giving away responsibility at the same time he's actually posting that he's such a great guy that he's got lots of women anyway. So then when he since after ta, I thought the roof would fall in anyway since been painting to and IT makes you take big risks.

And so that's now just excuse this, the fraud with the government. why? Because this is sensible, intending to and made him do IT wasn't him? Yeah, he he is happy to play the victim, but is pride weren't let him do IT for very long. He's really gotten be the hero and in control yeah, I won't let him keep playing the victim is very long IT.

that makes perfect sense, which is why he said that ryan threatened him but his pride said, well, not really. I could beat ryans as.

嗯嗯 so then he he blames his family for trying to protect the business， attacking him, not supporting him. Know what bad people they are because they should be loyal to him. He's not loyal to them, but that's okay, but they should still be loyal to him.

So again, is is that double standard? And I thought IT was lovely when he said, many of my actions have been for other people. Well, first, what does that really name? But he's kind of playing that sympathy card.

And then when when he said, I bet I sound like a service past that's a really clever sort of negotiation technique is you call out the elephant in room 嗯。 And now when you're saying IT to someone who is trying to know these other woman who's trying to Foster a relationship with him, it's designed to get her to say, no, not at all, I really understand, which is kind of the message the same 里面。 So I thought that was classic when when he was talking to him about apologizing and he said, who a family don't deserve my shame the way I interact that because, I mean, it's the kind of a difficult sentence. It's almost as though he's feeling like, well, if he apologized to them, he would be putting a burden or name of, they would start to worry about him feeling and and you know that would be added burden for .

them to me sounds like he's very sorry for himself .

oh yeah yeah in the way he's putting IT is of course they will be concerned about me.

right?

It's interesting there. And also that seems of shame I noticed that was a phrase book used over over and and bow also uses so IT sounds like a no a phrase that they used to each other or he has used to her .

repeated yep shame .

yeah so more of the victim um mentality when he said, won't know why lots of people saying it's you ryan got sympathy for his court appearance it's my family that political Annies on a Better story I have a past so it's completely dissolving that behind. It's his behavior that makes people think it's him it's kind of like, no, it's all these other things. I'm just the victim of circumstances exactly.

Oh, and then he's also not only is he wearing that being thread by ran currently, he's also afraid of being threatened by his expose and that's why he put he played along with what he wanted for business. Knows what that actually means other than perhaps that means they didn't get a dior's but IT we'd be really interesting to know whether he had a history of abuse towards women or partners because that was my theory about brook. Um no, when I was contacted you, based on not a great deal of information, I have to say I just I thought because a lot of the women that I dealt with who are in abusive relationships have told me that they have like to police, they have like to family.

They will lie to almost anyone under instructions from the abuse er right so IT wasn't inconceivable to me that brook, under instructions from both might come on new podcast, not going to come on new podcast and no specially sense of shame and really what he was saying was and both saying this as well, who announced this when they were twenty one didn't make mistake. Hey, no, i'd made a mistake like everyone else. I'm twenty one.

I was a kid. No, and we've all been twenty one. We will make mistakes kind of like this and be different.

Yeah didn't buy that. No.

it's really because he doesn't actually come out and say IT in a really late way IT just creates a since of no minimizing and investigating what he's done. However, when he was talking about actually burning the body, that's what I found really interesting that um he watched that body burn no, okay, we've got this scared kid doesn't understand how the world work, frightened of going to jail.

So I got the impression he came up with the idea of burning the body, which is a really dominant behavior. 嗯， no, it's not that tired IT. Let's Better know, because generally people wanted out of size.

Let's get her away but in fact, IT was almost the opposite. And he says, now again, can we believe him? Don't know.

But why would you like about this? Um that he actually watched that body boon. So then he makes a video out of IT that that was out of respect for her. He watched her burn, and then he says, even her silicon implants. And I just wanted to live through my ipad and just strangle the guy when he said that, because I thought you even burn this woman's body and even only years later, you're still wasting the night I mean, what an insulting, graduated, horrible thing to say it's kind of like, oh, and let me just introduced another little thing about that maybe nobody .

knew yeah .

and let me put you out there that is just so low.

It's disgusting.

Well, and the fact that he watched speaks to me about his psychology, because the average person, of course, that we could never burn anybody in the first place, but there is no way they could watch. So that says this, a turtle. Disconnect between Normal emotions, but he is watching a human body, someone he actually knows burning.

So for him to be able to do that, either he'd done a lot of working himself up to that in terms of doing goose, and things are really testing things or things that helped him realize, hey, I felt nothing when I did that. Let me see what else I can do that way. No, is the kind of sets the bar for g, nothing bores me.

If that didn't bother me. Nothing about me. Hey, that's amazing. So let me see what else I can do.

After going over the conversation in great detail, there were several statements both made that really caught my attention. At one point, Sally s. Bow, how often he talked to, ran over the years after what had happened.

Both said they lived together for a few months, and then essentially they cease all communication if both is telling the truth here, that he and ryan never discuss what happened beyond the first few months of two thousand and six. Bow also told Sally that ryan was quote into serial killer movies, and he even goes on the list example saying, quote, movies like zodiac in seven. The problem is the movie jodie ag didn't even hit theatres until two thousand seven, well over a year after boon ryan d stopped talking.

So is that just a bull face lie? Later in the conversation, Sally asked bow about the latex glove. Both said, quote, I don't know about the glove. Ryan said he didn't wear any. If ryan said didn't wear gloves, that means the boat ask them about wearing gloves, meaning both new to ask about IT.

The question is, when to the latest glove become public knowledge? Was this information public in the first couple of months after her disappearance? I call marie's goin to get .

some clarity on this.

Do you know when exactly the G. B. I released the information about the latest glove?

Yeah, and I should do they work that a deal that they would do IT on forty eight hours in the late.

So they didn't publicly announce IT until two thousand and eight.

That's forty eight hours and they have access to some of the pictures and some stuff on that. And that's when I was a miles.

How do both note to ask ran about the glove is the question if he didn't know about that.

I don't they have to get them questioned that mostly something wrong with a glove and run.

So what's the deal? Did you i'm .

saying you got you ve got a good one that yeah, oh yeah. IT seems like a plane. I don't. That sounds like a sounds like a plan, which is want to be hard to do. Rodwell says the glove linked back to tera run not that small, both can and not that A, I don't know a veni kisen paper or a sillar paper or IT was ever mentioned until after the forty eight hours in the aid that was all ate.

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Escape to a bygone age of mystery, danger and romance as you immerse yourself into the world of june journey, a hidden object mystery mobile game that puts your detective skills to the test plays june Parker, and investigate beautifully detailed scenes of the nineteen twenty years while uncovering the mystery of her sisters murder with hundreds of my teasing puzzles, the next clue is always within reach wouldn't you love to play a game on your phone where you can become a detective and find clues, figure out scandalous st.

Family secrets, with each scene leading to a new thrilling story line, solve mind teasing mysteries of the roaring twins. Each chapter uncovers a collection of dazzling hidden object spectacles for you to solve. This game is about a daring Young girl, june, traveling to her sisters s estate to uncover scandalous family secrets, mystery, danger and romance.

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A few weeks ago, a man reached out to me, claiming that he has some very important information about both dukes. I called him back and he told me a story.

Okay, now what i'm about to say is told the freak, actually, when the heart has split up in divorce, moved into my brother's house, which was my mothers home at the country, and that SHE has started to neural hinder date inside and put the profile out there. And SHE, this time in, was a couple days, and he would tell me what and I don't like to go for my dom in night, and how he would me in.

Actually, we used to swing were married, and we will experiment, do a lot of things, 一个 性质 的， head up to a pek entry in a pecan, order to life over and take pictures. He showed me a picture that he took him of her. And SHE said that was the creeps and saying .

she's .

a weird thing when you said whenever I was on, but actually ve told me that he said some things to her that really creeps her out and that's what he wanted to stay. He started creeping around and he has made the helped tera that disguise. He told her that he was going to kill me and he did away with IT.

He knew how. So like how book his girlfriend actually told me that he couldn't just leave or couldn't just something to brook had something on him, or brook had he knew things about about him or something. And I said, I broke dinner, did both.

You are still trying to cheat on you and trying to see my life and SHE like freight out. We had some words. He called me, i'm sit in the house. My brother works at night.

My friend is just the marines snapper in his room with his girlfriend and in his brother are in the little woman with his room and i'm in the room and actually takes in me at the same time like what 中文 one you say。 I said, you told me to take care. Other won't leave you alone.

Well, he said, given me your address. He said, i'll be over there. He take care of you.

SHE could .

hear Brooks screaming in the background that night. He was asking for my address and horse word, give me that other sotcher I address i'm going to take to gona stay in my law and go kill as that. I was, I was like in mother room and mother, mother song that we had inherited.

I looked up in the bay window, rather with the current, are there was somebody standing there. I saw the person standing. They are slamming the door shut and they shut.

They see me and I get out that finites do, or face the window. And he was gone. I can't problem with him, but I was in that time, fine. The same peak in orgy, they show no nose with the same thing in order that he took top and said, you could bring that no one and hear you miles around.

Thanks for listening guys. Today's episode was mixed masters by resonate recordings. If you want to improve the quality of your podcast or start a podcast of your own, go to a resonate recording stock com and get your first episode produce for free.

This episode was recorded at an industrial atlantic pon city market for two hundred and fifty dollars off your first months of office. Friends visit industries office dot com h vanished. There will be A Q N A episode this thursday. So if you have any questions for us, give us a call seven seven o five four five six four one one.

The two part season finale of u p 4 season one will come out on monday， july thirty first and don't forget to check out our up and Venus live tour with exclusive documentation, footage, ge and audio as well as a live q and a with me in the rest of the uber bench team. To learn more, just go to up and vanish dot com slashed live and use the promo code vanished, starting this windsor for presale tickets. And remember, ten percent of all proceeds will go to the terror rin set scholarship fund with more details coming in the finale episode. Thanks, guys. Not see you soon.

How do you feel when you switched to guy co and save on your car insurance? It's like going to work on one thursday morning and thinking to yourself just one more day until friday, but then somebody in the elevator says, happy, then you check your phone quickly and discover today's actually friday. So yes, happy friday.

Ran dom stranger in the elevator. Happy friday indeed. Yep, switching and saving with geico feels just like that. Get more with my co.

You here is no such thing as the perfect murder. No, that's not true, because I had a lot of perfect murder.

IT took a years before I was actually able to speak with this guy.

Nobody knew what happened here. Even the police. They didn't have no idea. Not the only one. I know exactly what happened.

The man who says he murdered dennie's philaster and I find out what really happened, that terrible night, the only two people that know what happened that night is fine, and he is what that has answers, believable or night. One of the top series on apple podcast denies didn't come home.

You can binge the entire season right now wherever you get your podcast.

This call is from an in ada in the jury. Stay prison. Hey, I have some pretty important questions for you.

I can't wait.