Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
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Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. In today's episode, we're doing something a little different. This will be our first ever live episode of Up and Vanished. Over this past weekend, myself and about 40 to 50 listeners met up in Atlanta to have a group discussion about the case.
If you're wondering why you didn't know about this, it's because we only announced it on our Twitter and Instagram. We had limited seating. We were only able to select the first 50 people who signed up. The good news is this group discussion went really well. We had a lot of fun and we definitely plan on doing it again later this season. Next time we'll be making a formal announcement on the podcast for anyone to join. Our group discussion began with the topic of Heath Dykes and his 20 plus phone calls to tear his phone on the weekend of her disappearance.
Everyone seemed to think that that was pretty suspicious behavior. Let's pick up from there in the group discussion. Does anyone think differently about those phone calls he made? That they're innocent? That they could just be... Everyone's like, no. The business card and the door, that's...
Like, if he was a friend of the family, even new to her, he wouldn't have just left a card in the door. Right. That doesn't make sense. Yeah. You would have said something or... So how do you explain the phone calls? You know, if he was guilty of something, why would he call that many times? I think he had to set up an alibi saying he was calling her, saying, oh yeah, he was calling her on the way. He was trying to look innocent by, why would I ever call that many times if I did it sort of thing. I just think he just did them just to cover his tracks because he was already there, had been there.
I don't know, 2005, I mean... I mean, was the first iPhone out? I don't think it was yet. No.
No. Probably a flip phone. You'd probably have to just turn it off. If he was a detective, he would know to turn it off. To turn off his phone. Sure, yeah. I mean, I think anyone with law enforcement knowledge would know how to cover their tracks, which makes him... I just think there was an argument between him and her about, I don't know, maybe about Marcus. Maybe she was going to tell us why. About an affair or something. Okay. I think for...
someone to leave his car, you just called her 29 times. Why would you even leave a business card when you have 29 calls? The thing that got me the most is like,
If you're in a call that many times and you're clearly concerned and you go over there to check on her for her family, but when you get there, nothing really happens. If I was going to check on somebody or that was my job to go do that, I would totally... Exhaust all measures. Her car was there, right? Her car was there. And he's knocking on the door and peeking in the windows. If that was your friend and you were concerned and you were calling...
We would break a window in because we think that maybe she slipped and fell or hit her head or something was going on. I don't think he would leave. Back to the phone calls thing. Were all the phone calls prior to, I mean, is there any way to trace if they were prior to him arriving and then after they just stopped? Because it's suspicious that, okay, I got here. I'm no longer concerned. I'm going to stop calling. I'm going to stop trying to get in touch with anybody. As far as the time of the calls, all that I know is what Maurice told me and what the GBI has said about it is that they happened already.
all day Sunday. But because of the closed records law, I don't have access to the actual cell phone records. You know, I get emails all the time like, why don't you check the cell phone pings? I'm like, well, that would be nice. It's like, I would have already done that. But, you know, that's what stinks about this whole case is that the GBI has all this information and, you know, maybe they...
Don't know who did it either. Maybe they have all the information and it honestly doesn't add up to anything. It's always a possibility. I mean, who in your life have you had in the past that you would call that many times a day? It has to be somebody that you were intimate with. I mean, we were talking about the way I'm in the car. I was pregnant and he couldn't get in touch with me. He went insane. But I mean, that was the only time ever anybody's ever called them.
But if you had killed somebody, why would you call their phone 29 times? I think he just went insane. I think he went into her house. I think he tried to talk her into staying with them or not telling his wife. I don't know what. I think he killed her in the house and took her. I think I agree with this gentleman. I think that she was pregnant and I think she told him.
And I think they had an argument and she threatened to tell the wife. Because I was thinking, what would drive you to be that impassioned to kill somebody? I will say, earlier on in the podcast, I remember thinking, how would I feel if someone showed up to my house and I would feel okay about it? And I remember thinking only if someone had called me first. So later in the podcast when you revealed that he was the last one to call her right before she left, to me that means like...
"Hey, I'm on my way to your house. Meet me there." "Okay, I'm leaving the barbecue." And it's not weird when he's there. You know, anybody else that would have showed up without calling to me would be suspicious. Well, I was gonna say, I don't doubt that he was having an affair with her. But affairs happen, unfortunately, a lot. People don't kill people because of affairs. He's an investigator.
If he's an investigator and he gets a call from the mom and says, "Go to the scene and you are actually the killer. You got handed the biggest gift of your life. You can show up at the scene, call the police and say, 'I can't get in, it was called by her parents,
How many people think there's a cover-up here?
So what kind of cover we talking about here like I'm making a murderer type cover-up or like is it one or two officers or is it So you're on the market side
So I go back and forth with Marcus, I'm sure pretty much all of us do, with any suspect. One day it's, yes, it's definitely them. The other day it's, I'm not so sure. For me, there are just a couple things that stick out. One, that he did not submit to a GBI polygraph, and it was only private.
And it's like, if you're innocent, why would you... GBI is available whenever they can be. And so it makes me think you have something to hide. He's very skilled in certain areas. And, you know, he's military trained, so he has all these special tactics and strategies. And I
I feel like because he knew people in law enforcement there, he could get a buddy or two to help him cover up. Now, how he did it, when, why, I have no idea. And that's why I'm here. Okay. So you want me to tell you? Yes, tell me.
- I think it's Marcus Harper. I think she left the barbecue and I think she went to that tavern. And I think he drove her car home. And I think it was an accident. I think they got into an argument and he pushed her or something and he killed her. If someone, if she was really into this guy and somebody called her and told her where he was, and you know, maybe he was out in the parking lot when she got there so nobody saw them leave together or whatever. - I worked in a cellar when she went missing.
I lived in Tifton and worked in Osceola. And, I mean, it was just kind of, I mean, you would hear this, you would hear that. But, I mean, I always heard, like, they found a blue glove. I never even knew about the business card until... So you thought it was blue the whole time? Yeah. I mean, I heard that it was blue the whole time. That's a good point, actually, to transition to the glove. So, what's up with the glove? Raise your hand if you think the glove...
Okay, it's about half. That's it? So if it doesn't belong to the killer, then who does it belong to? Does anyone have any full-blown theories on the glove and wants to explain why it would match nobody and why it would be in Tara's yard?
So it starts with Marcus and I think that the fact that during his three-week leave and I never understood where he was on leave from but regardless it all happened during his three-week leave. I think the entire thing was planned out. I don't think anybody flew off the handle and this is the circumstances. I think it was a little bit of an OJ thing.
that he, in his mind, possessed her, owned her, and when she went off and started sleeping with other men, it infuriated him, but he kept a calm demeanor, very similar to O.J., but he had planned and he had decided he was going to kill her. And when he was on leave, he had already, wherever he was before, you could go to Grady and go anywhere you want, get a blue glove that somebody else has had their hand in,
You keep it, you put it in a Ziploc, you drop it there, and you leave it, and every time they do it, they want to do a DNA match. It never matches you, it never matches anybody, because you have effectively left a red herring for the police. And if you're a detective, which works for Heath or for Marcus, you already know that the worst thing to do is find a body at a dump site where there's...
Every kind of debris around and you have no idea what's evidence and what is just happens to be laying around right? So if you could create that that suspicion and say this is this is a part of the crime scene this was left by the
by the criminal, then you have already said, oh, it couldn't be me because mine doesn't match the DNA inside the... So you think that was all planned just to throw the place out? I think every bit of it was planned. I don't think it's up to the GBI. Does Snapdragon Road fit into your Marcus Harper theory? And how does it... I think that he killed her. I think he took her there. I think he had already previously, wherever he...
buried her i think he'd already ahead of time dug the hole had everything ready he held her that had her there dead at snapdragon and then finished the rest of it later okay so you think he burned the house maybe because they were getting close to searching it and he wanted us to get rid of any dna evidence and i think his only if you want to say accomplice and or cover up would be the his alibi does anyone think that someone could have dropped the glove
I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around that. If you're going to go kill somebody with gloves on... But if you're Marcus or Heath, why would you have to wear a glove? Your fingerprints or DNA is going to be in the house. And if it's in the heat of the moment, you don't have gloves in the heat of the moment. Well, that's one thing about the glove is it could have been used by the killer during...
Seems like such a bonehead mistake. Like...
But clearly it didn't, I mean, that person's not caught because of that if it was an accident. So it's like, you know, as perfect as everything else seems, why such a big screw up there? But a strand of DNA, you have the 23 pairs, the 46 chromosomes. Right. You know everything about that person that they've been able to decipher of millions and millions of genes. Mm-hmm.
But all you can do is say it's a white person with this color hair, with this blood type. So I am a crafter, so I don't know if anybody else here crafts or anything, but I have gloves at my house, blue and white, it's no big deal. Anything that is sticky, I put gloves on so that I don't have it all over the place, like epoxy or like rhinestones or anything that you may do to get ready for a pageant.
So to me, having a glove around your house is no big deal just because if she was helping the girls get ready for a pageant and she's getting a dress ready or a sash ready or a crown, you may not want to hold on to it. Do you think it could have been Tara's glove? It could have been her glove. It could have fallen out of a bag. It could have fallen out of her car. It could have been another girl.
Well, both the police and Tara's sister said that she had no gloves in her house. I mean, I guess someone could have thrown them away. I have a theory that's like, it's kind of out there. I don't actually believe it, but... But it's an interesting theory.
But it's a really good theory. Yeah. I posted on my Facebook that I was coming to this and like, did anyone listen to the podcast and have any thoughts or whatever? And this girl messaged me and she said in October of 2005, she was in a pageant where I'm from, which is about three hours from Osceola. And, um,
The pageant organization was getting, not emails, letters in the mail that were, like, calling out specific girls. And she was just basically saying how pageants are targets for, like, creeps, basically. She's saying, like, maybe there was some other third person that saw her. Yeah, and so then, so a guy, a creep could have been at the pageant, like, and saw her, you know. It's not the craziest theory I've heard. I mean, we don't know who did it. Yeah.
I mean, the GBI doesn't know either. And if they do, they don't know for sure enough to arrest anybody. Save on Cox Internet when you add Cox Mobile and get fiber-powered internet at home and unbeatable 5G reliability on the go. So whether you're playing a game at home... Yes, cool! ...or attending one live...
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Like, from the beginning of this podcast, like, I've been wondering if there was some cover-up by either the GBI or the police. Have you worried for your own safety from, like, digging up all these details? Like, you're being careful, right? Honestly, at first, I was, like, not worried about it. But as time's gone on and, like, I get unknown calls to my phone at weird times and I don't always answer all of them.
And I'm like, I really am putting myself out there. To answer your question, I'm really not worried about it. I mean, it can be unnerving at times, but it's exactly what I signed up for. And I always keep saying, I'm not going to be scared until I'm in somebody's basement and I don't know where the door is. I haven't been in any weird situations like that. I'm not too worried about it, but it's always on my mind. So it's not like I just ignore it. It's there. About the young man committed suicide, I mean, what are your feelings? It's weird. Um...
But I think that after I heard this guy's brother tell me that he was looking at his phone, showing him something that wasn't there, that was kind of proof to me that he had a psychological issue. Now you always wonder, well, where did it all come from? Why the Tara obsession? Sure. They just make up crazy stories sometimes. And it's not like he didn't know about this story. And it could have came from bits of truth of things that happened, but it's,
none of the terror elements and everything, kidnappers or anything is really part of it. With everything that we know, how much of it do you believe is actually tied to the case and how much of it is coincidence? Do you think it's all going to tie together? That's the tough part about it is that you have all these little things that happened and you're like, how do all these things fit together to make this one theory? This is why this case is the biggest case file is that there just so happens to be a bunch of people who look guilty who aren't.
There are weird things that happen that can't be explained. They don't all fit together. You know what I'm saying? We don't know for sure if Snapdragon is associated. It could have been somebody else or something else, or it complicates it a little bit. The glove, this and that. So I don't think it all fits together. I think there's no way for it to fit all together. And if it did, then it would be easier to solve. But I think that that's why it's hard to solve because there's so many nuances with this thing. Yeah.
You know, you got to find the ones that are the truest and what you know to be true and what is still yet to be proven. And that's what we're trying to do. In the next part of the group discussion, we brought out a big screen TV and we had a Skype call with Maurice Godwin.
Hi, I was just wondering about just accounting for Sean Fletcher's whereabouts and with or without Marcus Harper, not thinking that I did it, but possibly being an accomplice if Marcus Harper did it. And, you know, were there any type of security cameras around in the city that would confirm his whereabouts? Because I think he had called in a certain call where he was checking doors and windows and just making sure places were secure and
And I just, that kind of stood out to me a little bit, you know, if he was, had the potential to be a, you know, an accomplice. Well, he was actually doing, you know, just a routine store beat. He was on the store beat, a walking beat when he got that call. When the dispatcher called Fletcher to tell him that Marcus wanted him to pick him up at the station.
So one interesting thing about that phone call is being a former police officer myself and Harper was had been a former police officer, too, is he called the dispatcher. He didn't call Fletcher straight straight on his cell phone. So he knew for he did that on purpose.
Or for whatever reason that he knew there would be a counting of a log of that phone call to the dispatcher. As far as what Fletcher was doing before Marcus Cullum, I don't know. I think it's pretty well detailed on the dispatch logs.
But Fletcher was interviewed and he passed a polygraph. In my opinion, it's really not when Marcus was with Fletcher because the people who listen to this podcast and everything and know about this case see that as an alibi, right? Well, if he used Fletcher as an alibi –
then why wouldn't you want that time with Fletcher to be accounted for, right? So the point is, so it's not when he was with Fletcher. It's when he wasn't with Fletcher. I just also thought it was strange that it would not be in the police force's best, oh, how am I trying to say this, in their best regard to let someone who'd been at a bar potentially drinking go out
You know, with them on run. They all knew him. And, you know, it's a seller. I mean, it's just not a seller. A lot of small towns do that. So I don't see any problem with with that unless there was a car wreck with the liability insurance and stuff like that. But, you know, I didn't see I don't see any problem with him letting him in because they all knew him, known him for years.
And he's a former cop. But the point is, it's not really when Harper was with Fletcher. It's really when he wasn't with him.
Elliott Robinson, Decatur. Given the amount of law enforcement involved in this, I guess, case, what has to be the level of probable cause in order to compel them to have DNA submitted and to be tested? Because we know, like you mentioned before, it's a small town. GBI, I guess, has an office that's in that area in Perry. I mean, does it have to be
a reasonable doubt where they pretty much know we've got a body and we're just kind of tying it up because like you said, it would kind of help to eliminate a lot of people from the case. I would imagine Marcus has DNA since he used to be a former officer. The gentleman from
From Perry as well. You can just kind of get rid of them. So what's the, what's kind of like the... All these people were swabs, swabbed and there were no match. But now were they swabbed? I know you've mentioned in one of the cases there are different databases. They are, there's the state of Georgia database. The thing about the state of Georgia, unlike my state of North Carolina, which changed in 2011,
And also Texas changed to no 11. And this is something that you could try to petition. The legislature in Georgia has tried to change this, but it was fought back. In the state of Georgia, in a lot of states, to be swabbed, you have to be convicted of a crime, felony. In my state here in North Carolina and Texas, in 8 to 10, 19 other states, you only have to be arrested for a crime to be swabbed.
And in Texas, when they passed that, that you only have to be arrested, they identified 100 rapists. One guy who was a family man with children, married, good job, he got separated and got behind on child support. They swabbed him because he was arrested for back child support. He was identified as a prolific serial killer. So the point is being is that...
If you believe that the DNA on the glove, the white male DNA on the glove is linked somehow to the killer, then that person has never been convicted in the state of Georgia. And also it's been entered into the federal DNA database CODIS. The DNA from the glove is just sitting out there, you know, in CODIS in the state and
And it's just waiting for somebody somewhere in the United States to enter it to get a hit. And so no officers have been swabbed or have all the officers? Oh, Fletcher, Dykes, Harper, all those people have been swabbed. Now, if you talk about some other officers, I don't know of any. I would say that Lankford was swabbed, Michael Lankford, but anyone else?
I'm not quite sure why they would be swabbed. You'd have to give me what would put them or bring them to light to make them be swabbed. I mean, you just can't randomly swab officers. You see what I mean? The only thing that has not been done, and it's not a standard in law enforcement, it would have to be done by somebody on the outside if you could get hold of the DNA profile.
is the ancestry, the genealogy, to see if there's some type of genealogy, somebody in the database that might have a family member linked to the glove somehow. That's not been done, but familiar DNA has been done. The thing about that is, familiar DNA, the person would have to have a relative that you get a partial, because a familiar DNA is only a partial hit, right?
That person would have to have been convicted of a crime in Georgia, and then you would have to walk it back from that person to keep walking it back, back, back to see if you can link somebody to Tara. That's how that works.
John Steven from Valdosta, Georgia. So my question that I sent an email about is I normally don't listen to crime podcasts. But after I got hooked on Up and Vanished, I went back and I listened to Serial season one. And I was super disappointed that they never actually solved the case by the end of the first season. And I mean, yeah, I learned a lot, but nothing was ever really resolved.
And I'm wondering, Art, and this is for you and for Payne, are you worried that the case will not be solved by the end of season one? And if it's not solved, do you think that damages the power or the credibility of the podcast? Well, first of all, I've been on the case since the end of February of 06. So I'm not worried about any of that. The only good thing about it is, is these podcasts can be replayed by anyone, right?
And so you never know who's going to do something a year from now to go on there and, you know, in the confines of their own home that knows something and listens to this podcast. And it starts making them think differently.
I say, OK, to myself, I want to go ahead and come forward. And it might be a year or two after this thing is the podcast is over with on the terror case. So as long as the podcast cast stays available for the general public to hear.
There's always a possibility that somebody will listen to it and it starts them worrying. Well, Payne, for you, I know when this started, you said, I want to solve this case. I want to find out what happened to Tara Grinstead. So I want to direct the same question to you. My friend texted me the other day. He's like, you have the Sarah Koenig problem. Like, how are you going to end this? In a non-joking way, I want to solve it. I'm still actively investigating this.
and there is a lot of information that I have not put in the podcast yet, not just to hold it back from you guys, but because it would jeopardize what I'm doing right now. I can't promise that I'm going to go find the killer, but I promise that I will do my best to tell you what I think happened. I think awareness of the case...
through the podcast, or it has more to do about anything than trying to solve it with the podcast. Like you said, I know it's kind of like a vague question. Could I just get a quick synopsis from you about the neighbor, Joe Portier? How do you feel? I mean, how do you feel about the situation with him? I feel like he played a big important part of that, of what happened to her that night. I think he's definitely...
He's shown some very suspicious behavior. There's no doubt about it. He refused to speak to me. The only thing that he did, I mean, washing the car on Wednesday was a big mistake after Tara's dad told him not to. Also, you have to understand, really, he's the one that brought attention to
to the fact that there was something wrong at the house that Monday morning. Now, that may have been prompted by Ms. Fay's call Sunday, late Sunday night, probably after midnight, she called. But, you know, he didn't do anything that night. You know, he's never been considered at the level of Dixon Harper. Right.
And Vickers, he's never been at that level. And maybe he should be.
Hey, Maurice. My name is Stephanie Osteen. I'm from Sunbury, Georgia. I have just a few questions. The first one is, this has always bothered me, and I'm sure the answer is out there, but since you've been on the case since 06, when her mother called Heath and asked Heath to go do the safety check, and he went and did the safety check, what was the follow-up to mom from that? I mean...
Did he tell her, you know, the car is still in the driveway, the dog's still in the backyard that she normally brought in? What was the follow-up for that with the mom? Or did he just go back to bed and say, oh, she's not there? Well, we don't have the phone records, so we don't know actually if he made the phone call back.
He didn't do a safety check. He didn't do a wellness check at all for like a 10, 11 year veteran at that time as a detective. It was the worst wellness check that I've ever seen in the history of policing, especially with somebody you were supposed to love and were having an affair with and a longtime family friend. You know, he makes all these phone calls.
who supposedly expressed some type of concern or worrying about her, where she was at all day Sunday. That's based on Rothwell's statement. But then when he gets to the house, he does nothing but leave a business card. I interviewed Ms. Fay at the terror center. The only thing that you, and I've made mistakes in this case, there's no doubt about it.
But you have to understand, in 2017, I've got the hindsight of 11 years. And what I knew in 06, because it was really fluid back then going on, I did not ask a lot of the proper questions that I should have to Miss Faye that I would now. And I'm not quite sure if I had...
ask the proper questions if I would have been allowed to continue talking to her. I'm just saying that. Do you know why Ms. Faye didn't go herself? You know, hour and 20-minute drive, late at night, elderly. But all these phone calls, all these phone calls that were made supposedly over the concern of her on, you know, all day Sunday and all that,
I've seen no evidence that the Gaddis' were called by Heath. I've seen no evidence that her friend Maria was called by Heath. And these are people that you would think, now, Miss Faye did call Joe. And the reason why she couldn't get him earlier in the day Sunday is he was out at his little two-acre farm outside of Asila, and they got back, I think, probably 9, 30, 10 o'clock, and then she got hold of him after then. Yeah.
But all these people making phone calls, it seems to me that they were not calling the correct people. I mean, me being a mother, even elderly, can't drive, whatever. If I called somebody in Perry and they're coming through my town, you're going to pick me up and we're going to go find my child. I mean, that's just me being a mother. I agree. But if you're going to use Heath because he's in law enforcement, right?
then at least pick me up and carry me or at least touch base with me and let me know what went on at the house. Because even if he did get back in touch with her, the only thing he could tell her is her car was home, no lights, except for little Halloween things outside. And I left her business card. That's all he could say, right? I totally agree. It's very suspicious, yes. I've just always wondered if you think...
that Tara could have driven to the bar where Marcus Harper was. This is one of my first things that I tried to look into when I got there because I'm the one that pushed. G.B. High had not interviewed Megan Evans, and she was at the White Horse. And she's actually Marcus's cousin. She called Tara.
I talked to Megan one time, but it was only about five minutes. This was in 06, about April of 06. Her mama found out about it, and she wouldn't talk to me anymore. Megan phoned Tara. Megan went on to a pageant discussion group in 06, and she posted something.
that she was one of the last three people to talk to Tara, but then it was deleted about a week later. So Megan spoke to Tara that night. Do I think that there's a good possibility that she told Tara that Marks was at the Whitehorse Saloon? Absolutely. Do I think with the limited emails that you have, that you've seen, which they came from me, that you've seen, you know the emotional state?
Do I think that Tara would drive to the White Horse? Absolutely. But, you know, Megan's, I tried to touch her, but she blocked me on Facebook. She won't have anything to do with it. She's married now with kids, but
So there's nothing I can do anymore on that. But there's a very good possibility that phone call may have drawn her to the White Horse alone, yes. Hey, Maurice, John, just a quick question. If you were to determine that the glove is just a plant and it was to deliberately lead investigators on a DNA hunt that isn't going to yield anything, would you agree that that
was a well-planned or at least a planned event? And if that's the case, who would you say that would lead you to decide? I could be totally wrong about this, but I believe since 07 that the person who did this has law enforcement knowledge.
I mean, there's no doubt about it. I mean, the only thing about the glove being planted, you would have to know that the DNA on the glove that you put there, they had never been swabbed before. That's the only key thing you would have to know. Now, it could come from an elderly person or someone like that, but you would have to know that...
The person has never been arrested for. And also, it's my understanding, Rothwell's argument against me and the planted glove theory is that the glove is linked back to terror somehow.
So the only thing that you could say about that is it's forensically – and there's a partial print on it, but partial prints can't be entered into the federal database APHIS. And I think – and this happens in a lot of other cases – that DNA, waiting for a DNA match makes investigators lazy.
They stopped doing shoe leather work and stopped asking questions. They just sat around waiting for a DNA match. And that's unfortunate in a lot of cases, and also this case. Do we know outside of the counties where have been searched for
Areas, wildlife management areas? I don't think any had been searched at all. And the only reason I question the wildlife management area is because I was telling a friend about this and her husband was listening and he used to work with Marcus. And so they would travel back and forth a lot together and he said that Marcus made him passing a reference when they were coming back home and
passing through Baxley and the Altamaha River and all that runs near past the wildlife management area. I was like, you know, you could bury somebody over there and they'd never find them. Just one of those off-chances, random things. I was like, well, has anybody ever said anything to anybody? He's like, no, I just know it to myself. That's very interesting. But that would take a massive undertaking. Two or three years, you might find me out there. I'm sorry.
Cool. We're going to conclude this part of it, but thank you, sir. Unless you have anything else you want to add to the audience here today. It's been very interesting. Um,
And this has been very frustrating for me. And I've been ridiculed in the past and still getting it on the discussion boards. But in 2005 and 2006, I mean, back then it was the court TV discussion boards. And, I mean, the nationalists got so bad back then that court TV had to shut it down for two or three days until people could behave themselves. But I appreciate...
being able to talk to you about this case. Do you have a question? No, I'm good. Tell them the truth now. Just be honest with me. I'm just kidding. Who called you multiple times? You were always in the gym. And you were... This old guy that kept bothering me. You were in other meetings. You got pissed at me one time, actually. More than once.
I did push you, didn't I? You did. Well, it was a while where I was busy doing stuff, and you're like, are you quitting the case? And I'm like, no, I haven't even made a podcast yet. Thank you for pushing me to do it, though. But yeah, I did what I said, right? That's right. Okay, I appreciate y'all. And like he said, there's a lot more information that's not been put out there. Another thing I'd like to say is that
The genealogy, almost everybody that's associated with this case, I've explored over ten and a half years. I mean, I know cousins of cousins of cousins. You know, everybody like that. And some shouldn't even be cousins. But I've looked at everybody's heritage into there. And it's just mind-boggling. Really, there's probably...
probably 75 to 100 people surrounding this case. Okay, well, you take care and I'll see y'all later.
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