Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
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You have to separate the speculation from something that actually has an origin, where somebody supposedly witnessed something or was told something by somebody who had some involvement in something. We heard a lot of stories at the beginning when Ryan Duke was arrested. And some of them I just dismissed out of hand because I'm like, well, there's no way that many people knew about it. But right now, I think at least 12 people knew about it. The GBI knows the story. I've been told that the GBI has interviewed at least one person involved in all this.
I'm sure he probably has interviewed all of them.
More than 40 GBI agents swarmed a pecan orchard in Ben Hill County this afternoon. Not one, but two former students from that school under arrest. With the intent to and did call serious bodily harm to the person of Tara Grinstead. Charging Ryan Alexander Duke with the murder of Tara Grinstead. From Tenderfoot TV in industrious Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished, the investigation of Tara Grinstead. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey.
I've become emotionally attached to this story, but every day, I put my blinders on to stay objective. The point of this podcast was to find out what happened to Tara Grinstead, and now that we've discovered that something evil and heinous has happened to Tara, by default, this podcast is now an advocate of justice for what happened to Tara. I, myself, want the person or persons responsible for killing Tara Grinstead and covering up her murder to pay for their actions. But this is not a witch hunt.
This is not about seeking vengeance. This is about justice and finding the truth. This is about holding people accountable. Every person accused of a crime in our country will get to have their day in a courtroom and their own chance to defend themselves. One of the most instrumental roles the media plays in America is transparency, checks and balances. For years, this has existed, and in many cases throughout history, it's served as a catalyst for change in our society.
Thank you.
and one that's divided by their own unique political views, each with their own agenda and strategy. And for the new generation, this is now an era of heightened awareness, a new instinct to now question what you're hearing and seeing all the time, constantly seeking journalism that is unbiased. And this change happening all around us has opened the door for people like me and you to challenge what we see and hear, to stand on your own two feet and have a voice of your own,
And right now, in the case of Tara Grinstead, that's exactly what Up and Vanished is. It's a new form of media. It's a new form of delivering information. And most importantly, it's its own voice. A voice that is not bound to unwritten rules or standards. A voice that isn't filtered or shaped by a bigger agenda. A voice that isn't scared to stand alone and question the authority and will stop at nothing in an attempt to find the truth. And that's because the podcast is only me. I don't have a dog in the hunt.
All I have are my own conventions as a person and my own moral compass, an unadulterated search for truth and for justice, fueled only by passion and sincerity. And the way I've reported the story of Tara Grinstead has been a constant evolution. When I've talked to people like Brooke, Bo Duke's girlfriend, these are one-on-one phone calls that often last for hours, the furthest thing from a traditional interview setting.
And most of the time, it's just a conversation between two people. And because of this, it's become much more personable than I could have ever imagined. I find myself talking to people like they're my friend or someone closer to me, not just the subject of an interview. One of my last phone calls with Brooke Sheridan after a heated bout of disagreements discussing Bo's actions, the conversation went like this. How do you see me, Tony? I see you as someone who was put in a very tough position.
and ultimately did the right thing and is very confused on how to feel and act at this point. I think that you're in a very tough position but I think overall you've handled it very well. That's what I think. And if you were me, how would you handle the backlash from all of this? I would tell my story and trust in the fact that you told the truth and that's all that matters.
How do you make the words hurt any less? You tune it out. Really, you tune it out. Move on. You have to pick up and move on.
An ironic turn in our conversation, to say the least. But at the end of the day, that's what it was. Just a real conversation between two people. The point I'm making is that in every single way, whether I even like it or not, my reporting on this case and my relationship to it is something completely different than what it was when I started this podcast. As I dig deeper for the truth, I've become entwined with different people and created countless relationships that now extend far beyond the case of Tara Grinstead.
And it's all a balancing act of staying true to myself, keeping my word to others, and always challenging what is out there and standing up for what I believe is right as a person. So as you listen to the rest of this podcast unfold, just remember, this is no longer just a story to me. This is not a random cold case that I Googled anymore. This is something much bigger and much more important to me. And you'll continue to see this as the last chapters of this story unfold.
Several parts of Bo's story, according to what Brooke told me, seemed strange. I asked Maurice Godwin to give me his own analysis of Brooke's phone calls with me, and here's what stood out to him.
First of all, she said that they were having a party at Bo's house. And Ryan was there. And the roommate was Steven, which is Ryan's brother, is what she said. And it was a football game or something. And she said that when the other people there passed out, and I assume from drinking, is when Ryan took the truck and went and killed Tara.
But when they all passed out, that's when Ryan had taken his truck and left. I do not believe this for one minute. He didn't pick the name out of a hat and just choose that person.
There had to be something drawing him. And it didn't just ride around the neighborhood and just happen upon Tara. There was something that drew him straight from Fitzgerald to 300 Park Street. He drove right straight to that address. There was something that drew him to that address. Her clothing was removed between that Sunday and
And that Wednesday, at some time during that time, her clothing was removed. For what purpose was her clothing removed? He said that she was laying face up, that she looked like bluish and she had bruises around her neck, that she did not have on any clothes. It could be for sexual purposes.
post-mortem sexual activity that I could only assume because, I mean, if you're going to destroy and burn a body...
and take it that far and bury it. You just wouldn't toss the clothing into a trash dump or somewhere like that because they could easily be traced or found by someone when you try all your best to try to destroy the body and hide it. But that's predicated on if what she said was true about Bo saying that the body was nude. Every time he asked Ryan about it or talked to him about it, it was a look of shame.
It was, he was shameful. It wasn't like, you know, oh I snapped or it was a look of shame. Bo knows the motive behind Tara's murder. However, to keep himself out of prison and to live in the community, he has to minimize his involvement, which really what has been going on with the narrative that Brooke has been selling over the past months. He knows why Tara was killed.
Even if Ryan told Bo details about the crime, we don't really know if they are true. We don't know if what Bo has told Brooke is true. But when they all passed out, that's when Ryan had taken his truck and left. How many people were there? Oh, let's see. Maybe about seven or eight.
I don't believe the story about the guys passing out and Ron stealing Bo's truck and traveling to Asila to kill Tara. And he used a credit card to get into her home. Was she asleep or something? Yes. Tara's dog was an inside dog when Tara was home. If Ron broke into her house with a credit card at night when she was sleeping, Dolly would have barked.
with someone standing on the front porch. I am not convinced that Ryan gained entry to Tara's house using a plastic card. The porch light was on, Halloween lights were on, and Ryan would have to stand on the porch and fiddle with this for a while. If he did this, he must have not been too drunk. Save on Cox Internet when you add Cox Mobile and get fiber-powered Internet at home and unbeatable 5G reliability on the go.
Okay, you can do this. I know, I know. Carvana makes it so convenient to sell your car. It's just hard to let go.
My car and I have been through so much together. But look, you already have a great offer from Carvana. That was fast. Well, I know my license plate and Vin by heart, and those questions were easy. You're almost there. Now to just accept the offer and schedule a pickup or drop-off. How'd you do it? How are you so strong in letting go of your car? Well, I already made up my mind, and Carvana's so easy. Yeah, true. And sold. Go to Carvana.com to sell your car the convenient way. How did Bo know every detail about the crime, except for how Ryan killed Tara, or why he killed her?
In all the hours that I talked to Brooke on the phone, she never once said that Ryan told Bo what happened. But Bo did, however, know countless details about the crime, where Tara's purse and keys were, that Ryan used his truck, and even how Ryan got into her house with a credit card. But according to Brooke, Bo never knew why Ryan did it, because supposedly, Ryan would never tell him.
It was a complete gray area, a huge hole in the story. Bo is admitted to doing a very awful and heinous thing, burning Tara's body. Please remember that Bo admitted this, so it's safe to assume that at least that part of the story is true. But to have so many holes in all the other important parts of the story leads me to believe he may be severely minimizing his role.
At the end of my last call with Brooke, she pointed out to me what she thought were discrepancies in the state's indictment against Ryan Duke. The indictment alleges that Ryan Duke killed Tara with his hand, singular, after he entered her home with the intent to commit a theft. In this last part of our conversation, she told me that the indictment was different from what Ryan told Bo. That's not what he told... That's not what he told Bo. What did he tell Bo?
What do you think you told about his pain? I don't know. I'm genuinely asking you. Do you remember when I told you how he acted every time he was asked about it? Guilt. Do you remember what I told you about what he said her body looked like? That's why he is trying to lessen his involvement. That's what it looks like to me. He's not saying the same thing. He is trying to lessen it. How do you know that?
Like, his account of what happened. Like, how do you know what he said? Because I know what he said. How? I'm asking you how. Who was the only other person that would know? Tell me again exactly what he said, how he killed her. What did I tell you when I told you about the marks on her body? He said something about her neck being bruised. Very bruised.
This was after we had talked for hours, and she had told me that Ryan never told Bo exactly what happened.
So I asked her again, well, what did Ryan tell Bo? How did Bo know that Ryan used a car to get into her house? How did he know that? Ryan told him. So in the process of Ryan telling him that he took his truck and went to Tara's house and used a car to get in her house, what do you say happened next? Can I call you right back? She didn't really have an answer. Again,
But I held on for a few more minutes. When Ryan said, hey, I took your truck to Tara's house and then I used the card to get into her door, what do you say happened next after that? I don't think it was a sequential story. I just think it was a detail that both had picked up on from what he said, the conversation they had that day. Those are pretty big details. Like, hey, I snuck into her house with this card. He didn't say why did you go there or what were you doing?
It's just so hard for me to comprehend. Just to graze over it. This is weird. Don't you agree? It is very weird. It is very weird. To be honest, a lot of what Brooke told me was weird. She seemed to tell me things a little bit differently each time she told me something. For example, when I asked her about her relationship with Bo, at first she told me this. Bo and I were broken up at the time when he told me everything.
Then the second time... Like I told you before, you know, when I found out we were still together, we broke up shortly thereafter.
And the third time... A couple weeks, well, I guess a couple weeks later, Bo and I broke up. After these phone calls, Brooke went to the CBS show 48 Hours. They aired a short interview clip with Brooke, and then the host of the morning show reacted. And is she still with him? That's what I want to know. Yeah, well, Bo did confess. He told his deep, dark secret, and that led to Ryan's arrest, and yes, they are still together. So which one was it?
I was trying not to overanalyze everything, but one more thing really stood out to me. She said when Ryan had taken her car, as in Tara. Remember how Tara's car had mud on the tires and the driver's seat was pushed back? Was this just a word slip?
were two conflicting stories. What she said was when they all passed out, that's when Ryan had taken her car and done whatever he did. It's either two things. She interjected her car to purposely mislead or she let slip out new information. If it is true about her car,
Then that puts a new twist on the original narrative that Ryan took Bo's truck without permission and traveled to Acilla and killed Tara. The big problem that she's creating for herself is that by
saying different things to different people at different times is it shows the jury that she's capable of talking out of both sides of her mouth. It really gives a good defense attorney a lot to deal with on cross-examination to show that she's not a credible witness, to show that the things that she says should not be believed by this jury. And at the end of the day, this trial is really about reasonable doubt. And if her multiple prior inconsistent statements
are sufficient to give rise to reasonable doubt, that's really all it takes for the defense to get a not guilty verdict.
Every time she makes a statement to anybody, whether it's to a television network news, to a friend, a family member, to anybody at all, really, if she says anything different on the witness stand, they can use those prior inconsistent statements against her to basically let the jury know that she is not to be believed. It's classic impeachment of a witness, and it's done consistently.
by a skillful cross-examiner when their intention is to raise reasonable doubt in defense of their client. Oftentimes witnesses talk to different people and they forget exactly what they said to one person and they say it to another person another way and even a slight difference can give rise to a big question about the witness's credibility.
She really is playing with fire by making multiple prior inconsistent statements because a defense attorney is really going to be able to dig into her on cross-examination. And if it rises to the level of reasonable doubt, then guess what? The defendant gets found not guilty.
Anytime a witness sets foot in a witness box, anytime a witness sits in a witness chair, their credibility immediately becomes an issue in the case. And if they've made prior inconsistent statements, then a skilled cross-examiner can bring that out and show a jury that, hey, this person doesn't remember what they've said from one time to the next. They're talking out of both sides of their mouth at the same time. You can't believe them. It's classic cross-examination, and I would expect nothing less if she's a witness in this case.
If Bo is omitting certain parts of this story, then besides Ryan Duke himself, who else could know what really happened that night? After several months of research, I think I may have found the answer to that question. It's a long story, and it all started back in August of 2016, right after I posted the very first episode. I was given a name by someone, a name I don't feel comfortable mentioning yet, but a name that eventually led me to a picture of eight boys in the back of a black pickup truck.
This unnamed person, who I will call Jim Deal, was in this picture too, amongst seven other boys. I sat and stared at this picture several times during the month of August, but as for its significance, I was absolutely clueless. But then a few months later, I learned from Maurice Godwin the infamous story of the suicide note, a story that to this day has always perplexed me.
To refresh your memory, back in Episode 7, Maurice told me the story of a kid who committed suicide in Knoxville, Tennessee. I'm going to tell you something now. In 2010, this individual, he drove to Knoxville, Tennessee, and he got into praying position, and he shot himself in the head and killed himself. He wrote a letter. He said that he could not live with himself anymore, that he knew what happened to Tara.
He was threatened and he saw something that he shouldn't have seen. There's something to this. You're not going to go meet your maker on a lie. In the letter, he listed 12 individuals' names. They were all 01 and 02 or 03 graduates of Irwin County.
Maurice eventually landed upon the full list of names on that suicide note.
And on that list was Jim Deal, the same name that had led me to this picture in the first place. So now I had two reasons to hold on to this picture. But only until after the arrest of Ryan and Bo did all the pieces begin to fall into place. Among those eight boys in the picture, right there in the middle was 21-year-old Bo Dukes with his arm around Jim Deal. Now this had my full attention.
Since stories of a party out on the Pecan Orchard began to surface, I shifted my attention back towards this picture. Was this the seven to eight guys that Brooke was talking about? How many people were there? Oh, let's see. Maybe about seven or eight. So I kept digging, and I kept finding more and more pictures, all from the same time period of late 2005, and all with the same exact guys in the pictures.
This was the clique that Bo Dukes hung out with on a regular basis, and oftentimes at parties out there on the orchard. So, what's the point? The point is that Brooke told me there were people out there on the orchard that night. The night Bo claims Ryan snuck off in his truck, broke into Tara's house, and murdered her. Completely undetected.
It wasn't just Ryan Duke's roommates that didn't notice him leave that night. It was also these seven to eight guys, too. Likely the same seven to eight guys in this picture I'm staring at right now.
And what about this party that was rumored to have happened the following weekend? One of Bo's army buddies told me that in the version of the story he was told, Bo was burning Tara's body out on the orchard at a party with people around. Again, likely the same people that are in this picture. The question is, did they know what was happening at the time? Or were Bo and Ryan destroying Tara's remains right there in plain sight and they were just none the wiser?
The bottom line is that either way, there is now more people to talk to. More people that may possess the information we need to fill up all the gaping holes in Bo Duke's story. My gut told me that more of the truth...
lies in the picture of those eight boys. The eight boys who were out on the orchard the night Tara was murdered. And the same eight people who were likely there when Bo and Ryan were still destroying her remains in the fire the following weekend. To disprove or validate any of this, I had to start with some of the basic elements of the story. Literally hours after Ryan Duke's arrest a few months ago, I got a call from someone. I played part of this call for you in episode 15. You might remember.
She sent me the name, you know, Ryan Duke. I said, yeah, that's him. Then she calls me and she says, is this the Pecan Orchard story? I said, yeah, it is. Yeah, how do you know? She said, oh, we heard about this 10 years ago. The GBI said that his name, Ryan Duke's name, had never appeared on their radar before, and that is not accurate. He has been questioned. The GBI had the exact scenario that played out two weeks after Tara disappeared.
In a way, this all ties together. If the story that local law enforcement received a tip back in 2005 to search a pecan orchard is true, then it lends some serious credence to the story of Bill and Ryan destroying Tara's remains the next weekend in a fire, with numerous people around.
I know Billy Hancock's wife very well, I may have told you this. I got to know Billy a little bit through her, but I asked Amy to ask Billy if one of his officers interviewed Poe or Ryan, and he said no. To his knowledge, they had never been questioned. And the GBI says they'd never been questioned. That leaves the sheriff's office. Irwin County deputies
I've heard that either Ryan, Bo, or both of them had mentioned to friends at a party out on the orchard one week later that they had killed Tara, and someone they told took it serious enough to inform local law enforcement. And Ryan Duke was then interviewed, and a search was conducted out on the orchard.
If law enforcement did in fact perform a search on the orchard, there would almost certainly have to be a record of it somewhere. Right? So I first started with the basics and went to the Osceola Star with Dusty Vassey to look through the old newspaper archives. Dusty mentioned to me that he recalled a search that was performed back in 2005 by local law enforcement that took place in an area near Fitzgerald called Queensland, and he believed that it might be related.
Right after Tara went missing, there were several articles about searches conducted by Irwin County Sheriff's Department. Deputies Alan Morgan and Nelson Polk were cited as the officers in charge. After a few more flips through the archive, I found what Dusty was talking about. That could have been the original search. Is that the area? I mean, it's a rough area. Is that in Bent Hill County? Yeah. But where in Bent Hill County?
Queensland was an unofficial district near Fitzgerald, but Dusty didn't know exactly where it was. So we decided to ride out to the pecan orchard ourselves and see if Google Maps could help us find Queensland. It's going to be about two miles up here from now. It's somewhere up here. It was almost midnight at the time. There was not a single street light on the road. To say that it was creepy is a complete understatement. Oh my God, this is creepy as hell. This is super creepy. I mean, it really is. Yeah.
I pulled out Google Maps and searched for Queensland, in reference to where we were according to the pin drop. We were basically right on top of it. It was nothing completely definitive, but it was plausible that the articles referencing a search in Queensland were in fact right here on the pecan orchard.
After Dusty and I got back to the Osceola Star, he began to open up to me a little about what he had learned about the local law enforcement search, something he hasn't been very comfortable talking about. One of my best friends, he follows the case, and I think he would consider himself a realist, and he tries to, like, stay very grounded with his ideas, you know? So he tries to Occam's razor to find the simplest explanation.
He said, why don't you write a blog post about all the craziest stories just to show how crazy the things are out there? And I said, Daniel, I don't know that the crazy stories aren't true. And I really feel that way. I mean, I hope they're not. I hope it's something simple.
But the simple stories that I've heard don't make sense. And you have to separate the speculation from something that actually has an origin for somebody supposedly witnessed something or was told something by somebody who had some involvement in something. We heard a lot of stories at the beginning. I said the beginning when Ryan Duke was arrested. And some of them I just dismissed out of hand because I'm like, well, there's no way that many people knew about it. But right now,
I think at least 12 people knew about it. Bo lists off several people who knew. Whatever it was, Bo and Ryan knew something about it. Bo says two people from Osceola knew. He said a cousin. He said his ex-wife, right? Yep. And his current girlfriend. That's seven people there. Four people I knew came forward with a tip to law enforcement in 2005. So that's another, that's 11. I've talked to two people who, two of those people, they do not want to go on the record.
And why is that? I would assume some, you know, fear. Fear of law enforcement, of, you know, possible retaliation. I don't know that there would be. And the other thing is, even though I think the people that came forward with the tip did the right thing, I think there would be people that might would blame them for not saying more. Even though I think they did the right, they did what you're supposed to do. The story is that a guy was told, I believe he overheard Ryan say something and he came forward to...
some friends and they came forward to local law enforcement and said, Hey, y'all need to check out this pecan orchard. And I do believe Ryan Duke's name was said specifically. I'm sure of that actually, but they went out and searched the pecan orchard and didn't find anything. Now the pecan orchard, the one in North of Fitzgerald, the one where they were, the GBI was searching two months ago. The GBI knows this story. I've been told that the GBI had,
has interviewed at least one person involved in all this. I'm sure he probably has interviewed all of them. Now, I don't think the GBI knew back in 2005. I've read a communication from 2006 where somebody talks about it. Said what happened. Mentions Ryan Duke's name. I cannot more firmly believe that it is true than I do. Let's put it that way.
To add even more confirmation to the mix, I received a call from someone inside law enforcement whose voice has been altered and also had knowledge of this. One thing that does slightly bother me is obviously Oshuk is in jail. He's got his nice little suit on. He's an attorney that he's going to turn himself in at this time on this day, pre-determined. Eleven years ago, give or take, there was some information basically on what they got now. Hey, she's buried out here in this pecan orchard.
And they did go out there and they did look, but they didn't see anything. And there's a reason why they didn't see anything, because what happened at the pecan orchard, there was nothing to see. 1,800 degrees, more than that, whatever, two and a half, three hours. And even after that process, there's still a lot of large bungalows. And you basically put that in a thermal grinder, put her in it, and they soaked her in oil to get her fired.
The evidence of this search was piling up, which only made my suspicions of the eight boys in that picture even stronger.
There's just way too many people to know so little. When I tried to reach out to these boys to hear their story, I was shut out. They would block me on Facebook and ignore my calls. But eventually, a more distant friend of these boys decided to open up with me and tell me what he knew.
He told me about a friend of his that had told him this same story of hearing about Tara's murder at a party out there on the orchard a week later. He actually saw this guy in Osceola at the gas station on the day of Ryan Duke's arrest, and he mentioned it to him again there.
And the day that they arrested Ryan, me and him was talking in the store there in Osceola. And he's like, he said, you know, I think it was Bo that said something about this is where Tara died or we burn her or something of that nature. And somebody told the cops that they just didn't pursue it. He was at the store buying beer. And I'm like, you going to go up there? Because I knew he was really good friends with all of them.
The name I censored is Jim Deal, the guy from the picture of the eight boys with his arm around Bo and the one whose name was on the suicide note. This no longer felt like a white rabbit. Thanks for listening, guys. Today's episode was made and recorded at Industrious Atlanta, Ponce City Market.
Check them out at industriousoffice.com/vanished for a $250 discount on Office Space. Today's episode was mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you want to improve the quality of your podcast or start a podcast of your own, go to resonaterecordings.com and get your first episode produced for free.
The concept of SWARN was really born out of the question and answer sessions that began around the time of the arrests. It was apparent that a lot of people really wanted to know more about the way the criminal justice system really works. And this was a great opportunity to develop that interest and to help people understand what I live and breathe on a daily basis.
I can't say enough how excited I am to bring this part of my life to the listening public. Sworn will debut with a two-part series premiere on June 14th. Here's a sneak peek. A professional killer will come in your house with a .22 or a .22 Magnum and shoot you in the f***ing head and leave. They're not going to cut your damn head off.
Just the details of it were, you know, odd enough that this couple living in this gated community, a wealthy couple with no apparent enemies or anything, that had been brutally murdered. And then once you looked more into it and found out more details, it just became more and more of a mystery.
This is the Derman residence on Carolyn Drive in the Great Waters section of Reynolds Plantation here in Putnam County out on Lake Oconee. We've used this with other law enforcement agencies only. This has never been shown to the public. Decapitation is a rare murder in America. When I walked back there and I saw that body there, and then I didn't see the head, I was scared that I was going to be sitting here three years later not knowing who did this.
The Georgia Supreme Court said many years ago that the office of sheriff carries with it the duty to preserve the peace, protect the lives, persons, property, health, and morals of the people. Now that kind of says it all. That's your duty. I'm not some hired city police officer that has the authority to do something. I'm not a state patrolman that has the authority to do something on public roadways.
I'm the sheriff with the duty to protect this community. Place your left hand on the bay of Bible and raise your right hand and repeat after me. I do solemnly swear. Please, a jury find the defendant not guilty. This weekend in Ferguson and around the country. It makes no sense. Judge, you are the last line of reason in this case. Every one of us took an oath of office.
And we're sworn to uphold the Constitution. Thanks for listening to the sneak peek of our new podcast called Sworn. Subscribe to Sworn now on Apple Podcasts to be the first to hear it on Wednesday, June 14th. Every sandwich has bread. Every burger has a bun. But these warm, golden, smooth steamed buns? These are special. Reserved for the very best. The Filet-O-Fish. And you. You can have them too.
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