Chris Campbell Remembering Senator Orrin Hatch
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Welcome to Breaking Battlegrounds. I'm your host, Chuck Horne and Sam Stone. And today we have two things, a very special guest, an old friend, Chris Campbell, who is the chief strategist at Kroll, which is based in New York. Prior to Kroll, Chris was unanimously confirmed by the U.S. Senate in 2017 as assistant secretary of treasury for financial institutions. But what Chris is really here for today is a beloved friend of both of ours, a

Senator Orrin Hatch passed away. The funeral is being held this Friday. And Chris served as legislative director for Senator Hatch, where he coordinated and managed the senator's legislative activities. He also served on the Senate Finance Committee, leading that as well for Senator Hatch. Chris, thanks for joining us today.

Chuck, it's great to be with you, and it's always great to be with you. Unfortunately, it's under these circumstances this time, but I do know that Oren, those of us who knew him well, called him Oren, you know, so held you in such deep and high esteem, and...

You were so you left such a lasting imprint and impact in his life helping him guide them through some very tough campaigns and some tough times politically and anyway, just Those of us in the hatch hatch world ecology. We call ourselves hatchlings so so You know remember the center so well and but certainly Remember the time working with you very very fondly. Well, thank you It's very kind of you

We want to have you on the show another time to talk about the economy inflation, but today we want to dedicate this to Senator Hatch and as someone who knew him so very well and worked intimately with him on a daily basis. We're hoping you could share with us some stories about Senator Hatch that they're not going to read about in the Washington Post or New York Times and let people get an understanding of Senator Hatch not only as a U.S. Senator and a leader, but as a man, as a mentor.

I think Senator Hatch, which people don't realize, is he really cared about the individual. If he was a preacher, he would be the one that ministers one-on-one. And I wanted you to just share some stories about him and what people should know about Senator Hatch as the human and the man.

Well, Chuck, you got it right on. It's a weird, like, it's kind of an emotional time. But it's, you know, like I tell you, it's, he was such a caring person that's unfortunate, very unfortunate. I think that he's the last of a dying breed of politicians where if he gave you his word, even if the, for those that are not active in politics,

or haven't actually kind of been in the battleground doing this um you know sometimes in politics you you you can make a deal today and that deal that you made today tomorrow may be devastating for you politically um and the ground may shift or that the consensus of where the american people or where your constituents may move um

Orin, if he gave you his word today, tomorrow, next week, the next year, the next year after that, that his word was his bond. So it didn't matter what happened and no matter what shifted, he just, his integrity was everything. I oftentimes said that, you know, there was a lot of people that we met with, you know, hundreds of thousands of people in time I met with and I was with him.

that some were good, some were bad, some were criminals, some were not. He met with everybody and leaders, but he just...

He gave everyone a second chance, everyone a third chance at a heart of gold. The only thing you couldn't do with Orrin Hatch is you just didn't lie to him. And he just had such impeccable integrity and such an enormously large heart and had such a strong grasp of his faith.

that he just, because of that and the quiet confidence he had, you just always knew everything was gonna work out. He had an uncanny way of being able to make the right decisions in the impossible circumstances very quickly.

And, gosh, he just, anyway, I'm so blessed to have had him as a mentor. And the countless people that I know today and the person I am today is largely due to he and his mentorship. We're with Chris Campbell, former Assistant Secretary of Treasury for Financial Institutions and a former Legislative Director for Senator Hatch. Chris, we

We talk a lot about him being a man of integrity and keeping his word. Can you give an example on a legislative battle where he gave his word and there was something you wish he'd go back on or something that is just a real life example? I think people feel, well, I don't think, people feel that politicians' words are as slimy as a vacuum salesman at the door, right? It just depends what will get the sale done. Can you give an example on a legislative battle where he gave his word and there was something you wish he'd go back on or something that is just a real life example?

Can you give an example of something he did, he gave his word on, where it had been to his benefit politically or personally just to go back on it?

Oh, I mean, I have countless of them, which I want to give you. Look, I think as a staffer, you know, whose job it is to make sure the senator gets his agenda through and is able to do so in a way that benefits his state, in this case, his constituents in Utah. His, I mean, a couple, you know, many people don't know that Orrin was the original author of the DREAM Act.

Many people forget that he worked with Ted Kennedy on the Child Health Insurance Program and was really the main thrust behind that important health care program. Folks may or may not remember his stance on stem cell research.

So those are three things that I can think of immediately at the top of my head that were, that ultimately became law. Gigantic legislative, you know, monumental legislative victories or things that became law that were, you know, that were almost impossible to think of when the idea first arose. And at times, all three of those issues became wildly unpopular in his home state.

BUT HE KEPT HIS WORD AND GAVE HIS WORD TO LEADERS, PRESIDENTS, AND HIS OTHER COLLEAGUES IN THE SENATE. AND CANDIDLY, ULTIMATELY IT CAME DOWN TO HIS WORD TO HIS CONSTITUENTS THAT HE WOULD BE SERVED AS A MAN OF INTEGRITY AND HONOR. BUT BECAUSE OF THAT, THOSE THREE THINGS, WE HAVE A SOCIAL SAFETY NET NOW FOR CHILDREN WHO MAY NOT HAVE PARENTS OR

that they can get healthcare now in a way that they would not have otherwise have been able to do just because they were born in ways that were non-influenced, as Chuck as you know that I was. The, or STEMSAR research, the enormity of the,

Medical research now has been conducted on that with using that technology has been really needle moving and really transformative in healthcare for so many and doing so much for so many. I can go on and on and on, but those are three things at the top of my head that we took the position, Center House took the position, the ground shifted at home in Utah.

And he had given his word and just didn't back down. And all three of them now, I think, are mostly heralded by, you know, even even conservatives, of which Senator Hatch certainly was one. Chris, this is Sam. Is is that is the ability to do that a dying skill?

thing in this country, because it seems like there are very, very few politicians who, even when they've built up credibility, have the ability to stand and hold a position against their base. And I think that's partially kind of, as you referred to, just moral courage and conviction. But at the same time, I think the 24-hour news cycle puts so much pressure on, were he and others lucky that they came in before that?

Was this country lucky for it? Oh, yeah. Without without a doubt, I can tell you that the country is better off for having had Senator Hatch be a senator for as long as he was. The we can debate for hours, I think, what has changed in American politics and what has created the new politician of today.

I'll just say it this way. There are very few members of Congress now that are currently serving, which many I know, they're all really good people and crazy people and what matters, they have amazing personalities. I love both of them. But that...

ability to be able to take incredibly difficult positions and have the conviction of knowing that it's the right thing to do. That's a dying art. And many, many, many politicians that I know now would only carefully use their platforms and their leverage and

and their positions to be able to do things that would enhance them themselves, their districts and their other states. But maybe it's in 24 news track, or maybe it's social media. It's just taking a really courageous stand is actually now not at all vaulted. It's no longer seen as courageous and certainly not something that people will

You certainly don't get any credit from the other side anymore. No. Well, I'll say this. I'll say this as a lifelong Republican and a fairly conservative guy. You get a little more credit as a Republican moving to a Democratic position than the other way around. Correct. I'd say that way, yeah.

Very, very correct. Chris, we have about a minute 30 left before we have to take our break here. Kill us briefly. What was that? What was a day in the life of Senator Hatch when he was in D.C.? What time does day start? How did it end?

Yeah, so this is something that really no one really knows. I'm really happy to talk about it. You know, he woke up at somewhere between 4 and 5 a.m. every morning. And we worked out and get in the office well before 7. And really, he began every day working.

reading the LDS scriptures and praying for his, you know, for us, the staff, and for the country, and for those who are serving in the military, and got ready for the day. I made sure that his schedule was prepared and that we, that staff had, you know, had him prepared to do what he was going to do that day. And

The day would end typically between nine and 10 every day where he would then go home and begin again. So he really genuinely the entire time I've known, I know him much for it was many, many years. He had about four hours sleep every night. It's amazing. And passed away at 88.

What was his workout? Was it a stationary bike? Was it dancing to the oldies of Jane Fonda? What was it? Quite a lot of things. He always did some... Chris, hang on. We're going to answer that when we come back. Breaking Battlegrounds, we'll be back in just a moment. Welcome back to Breaking Battlegrounds. I'm your host, Chuck Horne, with Sam Stone. Today, we are honored to have Chris Campbell, who is Chief Strategist at Kroll, based in New York.

former legislative director for Senator Orrin Hatch, served on the Finance Committee, and also was unanimously confirmed by the United States Senate in 2017 as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Financial Institutions. So let's go back. We were talking about his workouts. I asked if it was a stationary bike or if it was dancing with Jane Fonda to the oldies on a VHS. What was the workout daily? And what was his pick-me-up food, too? I mean, you know, I'm here with a Red Bull, which I don't think Senator Hatch was doing. So tell me a little bit more about that.

Yeah. So like, yeah, the funny thing is Senator Hatch had this uncanny way. He was very tall. When someone first met Senator Hatch, they were always the very first thing that I would say was there's always one of two things.

you're like, you're much funnier than we thought you were going to be. Cause he's just had this infectious laugh and this, this really funny sense of humor. It's kind of a dry and dry sense of humor. And then the other thing was like, gosh, I didn't know how tall you were, but he had this, like, he was almost like a green, a green bean. I mean, he just was very tall and very thin, but it would eat so much. I mean, he just, he like, he's, you know, Chuck, as you know, he, he,

famously loves Chuckarama and buffets and he would just eat and eat and eat and eat. Anyway, it was a thing to behold. He

They knew his name at Chuck-O-Rama, right? It's like a maitre d' at a famous restaurant. They knew him at Chuck-O-Rama. I've had Chuck-O-Rama people who worked there say, oh, I met Senator Hatch. Wait a minute, because this show is in Arizona and Florida. What the heck is Chuck-O-Rama? Oh, yeah, sorry. Chuck-O-Rama. I apologize for that. So Chuck-O-Rama is a really famous chain of restaurants in Utah that are buffets. All buffets. Okay. Yeah, it's just... And just...

He would, let's say, I don't think the center hatch could go only one time. I mean, he had to go back for seconds and oftentimes thirds. But yeah, it just was an uncanny way of doing that. Yeah, and look at his workout. He'd do a stationary bike. He would do a walk on the electrical machine or that kind of stuff, and then light weights. He was really famous at stretching. He loved these stretching exercises, kind of almost yoga exercises.

And, you know, I guess it was good enough to keep him zen. So he had this really an amazing way, you know, people I'm sure can think about, you know, the stress of what a U.S. senator's life is and the difficult decisions that he or she have to make every single day. But he has this really way of this quiet confidence that just never –

Never left you in doubt when he made his decision, but it was just lack of stress. And there was just kind of a grace to the way that he made his decisions. And yeah, just, you know, so he had this kind of Zen ability to be able to kind of make sure, you know, you always knew it was going to be okay.

Probably why he lasted 40 years there and not went to the funny farm, right? He's not had a mental breakdown with all these crazy people out there and all these narcissists. There are some unique individuals in serving in Congress. Being there that long and being that close to various presidents, being a go-to guy, in his final Senate term, what did you see that frustrated him about how politics has been evolving and changing?

- So Senator Hatch, for right or wrong, the measure of his service in the Senate and the measure of a man was his accomplishments. So how many constituents he was able to help, what very large pieces of legislation he could help create or shepherd through just the process. And he served as the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee where I was the staff director for a while.

And that's arguably the most powerful committee on Capitol Hill, both House and Senate is the biggest jurisdiction and controls the most amount of money. And even from that purge where we did a lot, I mean, I mean, he wrote the tax code in 2017. You know, we weren't able to do as much as he wanted to because politics of the day.

Great example, our nation's healthcare system is horribly broken and could really use some significant changes.

You know, the Finance Committee has the largest share of healthcare jurisdiction there is in any one committee. And he just wasn't able to get anything done there because the former president at the time, Obama, leaned in and said,

You know was insistent on on changing health care on a partisan basis and with only Democratic support and so therefore Post Obamacare there was just really nothing that could be done Nothing that really a needle moving that could be done on health care or health care reform post Obamacare Which I think really frustrated him and so there's yes, I

while we did a lot, right. And again, we wrote the tax code and Shepard did several tax trade agreements and, you know, and really did some needle moving things on welfare and others. You know, I just wasn't able to do everything he wanted to do because the politics of the day. Chris, I got a question I have to ask. Did he do his own Twitter account? Did he, I mean, either he had a genius staff around him or he was a Twitter God and,

So as I said before, Sutter hatch had this uncanny and this, this wit that's really amazing. It's really infectious. And he just hasn't had this. He's just really funny. Um,

and he would work closely with staff and they would kind of rapid fire of course because Twitter is you don't sit around thinking 12 hours before you send a tweet but yeah he'd work with a couple staff members and some really amazingly funny stuff and

And yeah, he would send them out. He's just really, he's just, those kind of things I will miss and it makes me smile when I think about him. Yeah, it's just, well, I think everyone will miss his Twitter feed. That's for sure. John McCain was famous for following sports at night. I mean, you know, Diamondbacks, Suns, whatever. He was a sports fanatic. At times I was with John McCain and drove him to this or that. He would start talking about hockey, right? Yeah.

The only person in Arizona, by the way, talking about hockey. Does Senator Hatch have a favorite sports team he followed? Did he check his box scores? Yeah, Chuck, as you know, he grew up as an amateur boxer. And so, you know, many people don't know one of his closest friends was Muhammad Ali and kind of an unlikely pairing.

But so he loved boxing, but really what he followed most and what were his real love was in basketball. Just as he, I think he fancied himself, had he not become a US Senator, I think he really would have wanted to be a professional basketball player. But yes, he just loved the Utah Jazz. I just absolutely adored them. Yeah, he,

He would be so happy when he knew when he was going to be able to go home and and and watch the watch the game or in person or meet the players. And so many of the iconic players. He was always dressed to the hilt at the games, the jazz games every time. I mean, suit and tie. I mean, to the max. Right. He always looked dapper, even at a jazz game. Everybody else is there with a hot dog stain on their T-shirt or whatever the case may be.

Yeah, he's he's the inside joke was that Senator Hatch may have actually slept in his suit. He was always in a suit. Always. He always looked amazing. Maybe maybe he was the original James Bond and we just didn't realize it. Pull him out of the press machine in the morning and send him to the office. Chris, we appreciate having you today.

you've been wonderful. How can people find you and follow you on your economic advice and videos and things of that nature? Yeah. LinkedIn and, um, uh, many other, many other, many other venues, uh, Facebook and, and, uh, my Instagram account. But, um, but, uh, yeah, Chuck, I so much appreciate you and your friendship and, and, uh, congratulations on all your success and look forward to keeping your good contact. See you, buddy. Talk to you soon. Brooke breaking battlegrounds. We'll be back.

Welcome back to Breaking Battlegrounds with your host, Chuck Warren. I'm Sam Stone.

Our second guest up today, David Keene, is a trusted advisor to presidents, longtime champion of personal liberty, one of conservatism's most respected voices, former editor of The Washington Times, author, columnist, and a fixture on national television. You may have seen him on Fox News and others. He's additionally served as chairman of the American Conservative Union. And I love this part of the byline, president of the National Rifle Association. David, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the program.

It's my pleasure. I'm glad to be with you. You have a couple of pieces out talking about some of the stuff the Biden administration is doing, and that's really what we wanted to talk to you about today. One of those is in The Washington Times. In fact, both are. But Biden's canceling college debt bribe targets young white elites. Tell us a little bit more about that.

That's exactly right. You know, the point that I was trying to make, and it's been clearer and clearer to anyone who's watched the policy side of this administration, is that there is a recognition that the new Democratic Party, the party of Democrats today, no longer either counts on or

appeals to the working class and middle class voters that used to be the underpinning and the foundation of the party back in the days of Kennedy and before. The fact of the matter is this policy recognizes that and comes on the heels of polls that were reported to the White House showing that younger voters

are beginning to abandon Joe Biden. His favorability rating among younger voters is dropping. And the organized activists within this group are saying the way to solve this, Mr. President, is to forgive college and university debt. Because if you do that, you'll get these people back. The fact of the matter is that while they couch

providing some relief to those who've gone into debt to go to college in terms that would make anyone who's not looked at the problem think that perhaps this is for poorer students, students from working-class families who go to college and have to borrow money to be in college and graduate and better themselves. Back to the matter is that a cancellation of college debt disproportionately goes to

to the sons and daughters of the wealthy, to graduate students, to doctors, to lawyers, to the most of it would go to people who are just out of college and making over $100,000 a year. And those are the people.

that are part of the base of the new Democratic Party. These policies are not designed to appeal to the middle class. They're not designed to assist people working their way up. They're designed to cater

to the desires and the whims of the upper class that so many people call the elite or the sons and daughters of the elite who would have a much better time buying an upgraded BMW with the money that they have left over if they didn't have to pay their college debts. Yeah, if you get rid of that college loan, the M3 is easily affordable. Absolutely.

That's right. Since the average college debt is around $22,000, if you bought yourself a Toyota Celica rather than a BMW, you could handle both the car and the college debt for the same price. But it's much better if you're one of these folks to have that BMW or even a Range Rover if it's a bigger college debt. Right.

David, this is Chuck Warren. What do you think we what do you think can be done about the ever increasing price of college tuition? I just my second daughter's graduating law school this week. It never got cheaper every year. It never stayed static. It just got more expensive. What do you think can be done?

Well, you know, very few colleges and universities over the course of the last few decades have had any incentive to either cut costs or hold the line. The increasing cost of a college education outstrips almost anything else in the American economy. And the reason for that goes back to the Great Society and the decision that was made to provide education

students, regardless of other factors, with the funds they need to go to college. These college loans and the rest of it are out of control because what do they do? They make it possible for colleges and universities to charge more and more and more, knowing that the students that they're attracting will be able to borrow that money and then hope for government forgiveness or just, as many of them do, just refuse to pay it back.

So this this creates an engine which does two things for the Biden administration at this point. One, it puts money into the pocket of younger voters who they want to go to the polls. And secondly, it subsidizes and provides machinery to keep the college and university escalating costs going up and up and up. David, we have just about 45 seconds before we go to break and then we're going to bring you back for our next segment.

Tell folks how they keep up with your work. What's the best way for people to follow you out there? Well, if they get the Washington Times, I write a weekly column in the Washington Times, and that's really the best way to follow what I'm up to. And the Washington Times, as we've had some of their writers on doing brilliant work right now, they are really doing excellent journalism. Highly encourage folks to follow that. Breaking Battlegrounds, back in just a moment.

Welcome back to Breaking Battlegrounds with your hosts Chuck Warren and Sam Stone. On the line with us, David Keene, one of the leaders of the conservative movement for a long time, writing today a weekly column for The Washington Times. And folks, if you're not staying up with The Washington Times and David Keene's work, you're missing out.

We were just talking about how canceling college debt is really a bribe for young white elites. But you have another piece in there that I think is actually really, really important right now. Thin-skinned Biden is the most dangerous man in the world. Well, in a very real sense, he is. I mean, he has launched what's essentially a frontal attack on free speech in this country. The

uh... the formation of a board of police speech uh... is uh... one part of it the homeland securities uh... announcement that uh... extremism which means people don't agree with the biden agenda by the most dangerous people in american history is another part of it uh... and uh... is his partnership with uh... corporate america which is finally breaking down because of uh... elon musk uh... has allowed his administration and allowed

the progressives behind him to do what the constitution does not allow uh... the government to do for example uh... if the government makes if the police make a private citizen basically an agent and allowed him to break into your house

that's prohibited by the Constitution because that private citizen is operating as an agent of the police. If he does it on his own, without police instruction, without police coordination, then it's a private act and is not protected by the Constitution. He might be prosecuted for burglary. But what the administration...

administration has done is something unprecedented. They know that they can't restrict speech because the First Amendment of the Constitution denies them the right to do that. And they've essentially made partnership with these high-tech companies and others so that they are, in essence, acting as agents of the administration to do something that the First Amendment prohibits the administration itself from doing. The Supreme Court hasn't dealt with this. It

It has to. But the fact is that this administration is undermining the very foundations of the American democracy by really putting the guarantees of the First Amendment and the rest of the Constitution at risk.

Well, David, what it seemed as well is they're like what conservatives complain about all the time when we do economic development grants, that we're picking winners and losers. And it seems they're doing the same thing on free speech, right? If my side wants to say it, it's okay.

If your side doesn't, it's obviously violent. It's extremist. A perfect example is... The humorous example of all this is before our eyes right now with the Elon Musk effort to buy Twitter. When Twitter was acting as this administration and the progressive left wanted it to do, which was to go after and try to silence Trump,

uh... dissonant voices particularly among conservatives that was five

But the fact that somebody who on at least free speech issues is a conservative and might at least allow those people a voice, that's terrible. And that's private enterprise out of control. So you've got a tax on, now you have a tax on billionaires trying to keep the platform open before you had praise from the administration for billionaires who wanted to close it down because that's what they wanted to do.

So, you know, politicians as a general, and this isn't just Democrats or just liberals, often find themselves in bed with whoever wants to advance their agenda. Good ones try to avoid that. But the fact of the matter is that what you have in Washington today is a government peopled by folks who not only want to achieve their agenda in terms of remaking the society, but want to feather the nests

of those who support them at the expense of the rest of us. Well, let's use an example right now. You have this group called Ruth Sent Us, who is going to do protests outside the homes of six Supreme Court justices. They have a website where they posted Google Maps graphic pinning that people can go to. It's had over 4,000 views. And they're also paying people

compensation to artists who show up with signage and posters and artists and things of that nature. Could you imagine if Republican president had allowed that without at least verbally condemning it to Ginsburg or others in the past? It's such a remarkable turn of events that the administration just seems to be okay with this, if not encouraging it. Well,

Well, the administration has not really even condemned the fact that we had an unprecedented leak from the United States Supreme Court of a decision that hadn't been finalized. The president's spokesperson has said, well, we don't want to really get involved in that. The president himself has addressed the issue, but has not addressed the fact that this was an outrageous act. And all of this is part of something that has begun recently.

with the election of this administration which is the demonization the newt attempt to neutralize the united states supreme court we can it and eventually packet so that it will act simply as a legislative uh... legislative endorser of whatever executive branch of the government wants and this is this is all part of an effort that was clear from the very beginning was stated uh... at the beginning of the administration

The progressives want to expand the court. The Biden administration knows they don't have the votes in the Senate to do that, but they're attempting in any way that they can, using their outside allies, to try to weaken the court so that they can accomplish that goal. There's a very simple reason for it, because if you look at the legislative agenda,

uh... that has uh... that has been part of this administration drive you find that many of the things that the president wants to do

are simply unconstitutional and won't pass court muster. So if you're going to do those things, you need to do something about the court so that the court will say whatever you want to do is just fine. And that's what this is a part of. I think this is a huge part of that. And I think it's part of a bigger, frankly, enormous problem for this country right now is the Democratic Party

and their leadership has given up the idea that there are laws, there are norms, there are limits to their power.

and they don't want any one to interfere with whether it's that's exactly right a minor but important example in the last segment we were talking about the student loan forgiveness effort that the administration's founded the chief legal counsel to the education department during the obama administration has written that the administration doesn't have the power to do that unilaterally this is a congressional kind of thing but the fact is that this administration

It spends most of its time trying to find ways to accomplish what it wants, regardless of the attitudes of the people on the one hand, the Congress on the other, or the courts. And that is, in essence, the rejection of the very idea of the rule of law. If we look at other countries, economic success and political freedom depend upon

any country's respect for the rule of law. And undermining that undermines everything that the country stands for and can accomplish in the future. And at the same time, they're accusing their opponents, conservatives and Republicans, of trying to destroy our democracy. I do not know any Republican within any sort of shooting distance of the mainstream who believes any such thing. We tend to believe very deeply in those institutions.

And are being demonized. Well, that's exactly right. I mean, it's the remarkable thing about the misuse of the language is that we have politicians today who want to accomplish a and while they're going about it, accuse their opponents of being the ones who want to do that.

And what this administration and what the progressive left is trying to do is, as Barack Obama put it, fundamentally change the way America is run, the American society, and our values. And they want to do it while accusing their opponents of being the ones who are behind it all. And if we had the independent and objective mainstream

mainstream media, as many have come to call it, that we've depended on as a republic and a democracy since the formation of the American republic, those things would be called to account and the public would know what was going on. Fortunately, there are today ways around some of these things, but the fact of the matter is that if you dominate the news

The people out there make decisions based on only what they're told and what they learn. And if you can control that, which is what this administration and the progressive left wants to do, you can then get the public to do whatever you want, even if it's nonsensical, and even if you're accusing your opponents of wanting to do what you're doing. It's really...

This is the dystopian nightmare that so many authors of the 20th century have written about. And yet now all of a sudden we find ourselves living it where you have just in the last couple of days, you've had the surgeon general and Bill Gates come out and basically say about COVID what people who were called COVID deniers and mass murderers have been saying for two years. Right. It is really.

It's hard for me to recognize the America that we live in right now, but the country that Democrats are trying to create is

is something straight out of horror fiction. Well, you notice that now as COVID recedes, there's talk about, wouldn't it be a good idea to have mandates for the flu? Right, yeah. And it's all about, you know, even though many of these people knew, for example, that the masks,

As one factor, but it is likely to prevent a virus from getting to you as a chain link fence is likely is capable of preventing a mosquito from biting you because it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

But they said, nonetheless, it was good because it got the people to listen and it got the people to obey and it got people to do what they needed to do at the behest of the government. You see that in China. You see that elsewhere. You know, it's a lot easier to govern a people who aren't free.

and who accept the bondage that they're in than it is to govern a free and often cantankerous public. David, is China the model that these folks are looking at and saying that's what they want? Because it seems like that's where they're heading, which is really sort of a techno-authoritarian state.

I think, I wouldn't say that they want to be China, but they want to use the technology, the same kind of technology, to, as they often put it, nudge people toward doing the right thing. In China, if you don't do the right thing, you lose your

Sometimes your job, sometimes you get fined, sometimes you can't go to a restaurant. I mean, they have total control over everything you do. And given that situation, most people, 99% of the people,

are going to just go along and get along with what the government wants until it reaches a point where they can't any longer, which is what's going on now in Shanghai. But they'd like this here. You remember that Barack Obama once wished that he had the kind of power that the Chinese communist rulers had because he wouldn't have to deal with things like Congress. I don't think they're that blatant about it, but they certainly think that they know

a lot better about what you ought to be doing than you do. And they find it frustrating that you won't always listen to and follow their advice. And anything that they can do to prod you, to nudge you, to convince you, to get you to do what they want you to do, rather than what your own conscience and your own reasoning tells you to do, is something that they like. And

And technology today provides a doorway to the brave new world that didn't exist when that book was written. David, I really see the barrier between what these folks are trying to do and what people did around the world during COVID and what China's doing. In the United States is the states. It's people like Ron DeSantis. It's Governor Abbott in Texas. It's all the other Republican governors who stood between them.

As a former chairman of the NRA, I got to ask, because this is one of Chuck's issues too, shouldn't the NRA get its butt out of the blue states and into whether Texas, Arizona? You better believe it. You know, I often blame this all on Ulysses S. Grant and Phil Sheridan, because they should have had the foresight when they incorporated in New York all

all those years ago to know that New York was not going to stay what it was in the 1870s. But they made the mistake, and for, oh, 20 years, the NRA leadership had been talking about, we ought to move out of that place.

And you know what inertia does to an organization. Everybody would sit around and say, yeah, we ought to do that. And then all of a sudden they're saying, we damn well should have done that. Absolutely. David, I want to thank you so much for joining us on the program today. We really, really appreciate having you folks. Follow David Keene at The Washington Times and tune in next week for a new episode of Breaking Battlegrounds.

For Sam Stone, Chuck Warren, see you next week. Welcome to a little bit of a Breaking Battlegrounds grief session. Anger session. Little bit of a rant coming up, folks. Because in the last 48 hours, I've got to tell you, I've spent two and a half years. Has it been that long now? A little over two. A little over two years now being told that I was killing people.

That I was a COVID denier. You're a mass murderer, Sam. A mass murderer. Yes. No, I mean, literally, I have been accused of being a mass murderer for not being a masked moron. I mean, this is what we've been talking about, folks. And in the last 48 hours, we have had Bill Gates. He of the all the COVID restrictions you can possibly throw at anybody's office.

Even remote? Your Microsoft office better be masked, Bill Gates. Look, he comes out and he says, oh, well, you know, we finally come to the conclusion that COVID is not as fatal as we thought. And, you know, maybe we should have been, you know, more aware. It really only affects people who are elderly and sick and, you know.

We didn't know that. Yes, we did, you lying turd. I mean, seriously, Jamie. I've got Jamie Kleschek on the mic. She has been dragged against her will to the mic on this. But I am so riled up. I am so fired up this morning about this thing. I cannot hold back. We're doing this little extra session because I am sick of these pompous jacks. I'm not going to say the rest of that word.

These people who have told us for years how they restricted our lives, they have accused people like me and many of you out there listening this of all sorts of terrible things, and all because we were paying attention to the dang data, and they kept denying it. The Pfizer data comes out. It doesn't show 95% efficacy from the trials. It shows 12%. 12%.

And 1,200 fatalities. That's insane. That's a higher rate of fatalities from the damn Pfizer vaccine than you had from the disease. This is unbelievable. And this has been jabbed into people three and four times. Not me. I went and got the J&J. They just restricted that one because too many people are dying from it.

This is absolutely insane, folks. And there needs to be a reckoning. I mean, that's what we're coming down to. You've got some people out there. I know Clay and Buck and some of the other radio hosts that I've listened to have talked about this, but I'm not hearing it enough from the politicians. There needs to be a reckoning.

We need to know what Anthony Fauci knew when. We need to know what Joe Biden knew when. We need to know what the Surgeon General knew when because the Surgeon General is out today saying, oh, well, we probably should have been more honest with people and had more open discussions. Well, wait a minute. So you're telling me you knew you were lying and now we're supposed to trust you as public health officials for the rest of our lives and we're supposed to take your advice? Go to you know where and do it soon because this is just ridiculous. These people need to be held to account.

And if they knew this data about the Pfizer vaccine and frankly, a bunch of Pfizer executives, they've been let off the hook by the government, which made them unsuitable immune from any sort of prosecution over this. Well, they knew what they were doing. So I don't know. I don't I don't believe when you knew you were killing people that you should be let off the hook. This is outrageous. And it needs to be. Jamie, does is it?

Is it too much to ask at this point that we hold public hearings? I think that would be perfectly reasonable. Yeah. And those hearings have consequences for people who deliberately said and did things they knew were lies, destroyed lives and businesses and everything else and killed people straight up. They killed people and accused others of what they were doing. Yeah. Is any of that unreasonable to say we need to put these people on trial in public and

know what they knew when they knew it, and then they need to be held to account. And I mean real account. Yeah, I absolutely think that people deserve to have those hearings and to get all this out in the open and say, you can't do this to us again. I don't think any of these guys did this maliciously in all honesty. I don't think they set out to hurt anyone necessarily.

But it's the cover up that kills you. They knew what they were doing eventually and they didn't say, whoa, hold on, we got to stop and figure this out before we keep going. That's the problem. And if they had said, whoa, hold on, let's stop, that's an entirely different story. I'm willing to let them go for that, but they didn't and they just kept going. I'm willing to let them go up to a point because, for instance, when you're telling people to wear cloth and paper masks and that's going to keep you safe when you knew that was not true. See, honestly, that...

The mask Nazis drive me insane. They really do. But it doesn't...

really bother me as much to have somebody like Fauci come out and say wear these things if it makes you feel better it's a bit of a band-aid and especially in the beginning I think people needed that to like a security blanket to feel safe even though it didn't mean anything I gotta tell you I disagree because for instance you have people like my parents who are very elderly my father has been dealing with cancer uh he's in his mid-90s my mother is in her 80s um

You know, they went out in public wearing these masks, assuming they were expecting protection. Yeah. And they were vulnerable. They were in the group that actually was vulnerable to COVID or is still vulnerable to COVID. Obviously, much more vulnerable in earlier variants that were far more deadly than the current flu bug that's going around. But so they did that. Now, luckily, that didn't kill them. But you know what, folks, there are going to be people out there that did. That's true. Yeah.

And so they were giving advice that directly killed people. Well, folks, we're going to wrap this up. I'm Matt. I'm Madden, and I want to see public justice. Breaking Battlegrounds, back next week.

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