Jonathan Johnson on Leadership in Business
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Good afternoon. Welcome to Broken Potholes. I'm your host, Chuck Warren, with our co-host and friend, Sam Stone, who's visiting elderly parents, as a good son will do, in New York this week. On the line with us today is Jonathan Johnson, CEO of Overstock.com, a rare tech company that's been in business for two decades and still is the same name and everything else. So welcome to the show, Jonathan. Jonathan?

Thanks, Chuck. Great to be with you. John, we like to first talk with our audience, just with our guests, so they get to know them more. Tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into Overstock, and how you became your CEO today, and what have you learned in that process? Well, Chuck, it's been a long...

road. If I start back in college, I majored in Japanese, which is not a useful major for just about anything other than it had low credits and got me through college quickly. I then went to law school, practiced law for a couple of big international firms for a number of years, and then went to work for a

software development company as its general counsel and later as its CEO. 19 years ago, I was having lunch with a friend of mine who was the chief operating officer at Overstock. And he told me the company had just gone public. And I asked him what his role was as the chief operating officer. And he mentioned, well, one of the things I do is manage outside counsel.

And I looked at him a little surprised and I said, you're a publicly traded company without an in-house general counsel. And he said, yes. And I said, you'll have my resume this afternoon. And a week later I had an interview and two weeks later I was the legal department of one and the general counsel at Overstock. Uh,

In almost 19 years I've been there, I've volunteered for just about every project I could, exciting ones and kind of grunt work ones. And one thing led to another. I was the president of the company for five years. I took a two-year hiatus and had a midlife crisis and ran for governor of the state of Utah. Thankfully, I lost that.

came back to Overstock and ran its fledgling venture business, investing in technology companies, blockchain technology companies. And then a couple of years ago when our founder left, the board tapped me and

to be Overstock. So it's not a career I planned, but it's been a great run and a lot of fun working with a lot of really great people. I think people, a lot of times, they see a company like Overstock that does $2 billion worth of sales a year, and they think it's just always been big. And I remember when you first started, there were sample products in the lobby. Yeah.

They were shipping out that day. There was no huge warehouse and it was literally a legal department of one. And, you know, you're all in tight quarters and we're the happy warriors.

Well, I'll tell you this. When my wife, Courtney, came to visit me my first week of work at Overstock and she saw all the products strewn around and samples, she said, Jonathan, did you come to work for a garage sale? And, you know, it kind of felt like that at the beginning. And, you know, over two decades, we've grown to be a $4 billion company and our business model has changed from being a liquidator to, you know,

Really being a company that's focused on delivering dream homes for all, selling furniture and home furnishings at real smart value to our customers. What skills did you think you acquired by running for governor that makes you a good CEO?

Well, you know, I've thought about that a lot because I think I'm a much better CEO having spent time on the campaign trail in venues large and small. I think becoming a more polished communicator, having a story to tell.

not being afraid of answering hard questions that you don't know what they'll be. Our employees ask hard questions of me. Our investors ask hard questions of me. And it's important for me to be able to answer those truthfully, even when I don't know the answer or when the answer is not necessarily something they want to hear. And to tell it in a way that

creates buy-in and makes sense to them. That's what a political campaign was all about. And that's what, it's part of what being a CEO is. What did COVID, how do you think American businesses have changed forever based on what's happened with COVID? What are the fundamental changes you see going forward for someone running a large company or a small company? Well, at Overstock, the COVID pandemic

was a big shift for us. First, everyone was at home. We sell home furnishings and home furniture. So our sales went up significantly. Second, brick and mortar stores were closed. Everything was online. So our sales went up significantly.

Third, all of our employees were home. And that meant we had to be particularly I as the CEO had to be overly communicative with our employees. During the first year of the pandemic, I wrote a week at least a weekly letter to our employees telling them what I was thinking about

What was on my mind, the changes we were implementing, you know, where I saw Overstock's future, when we might go back to the office, you know, what kind of things we would take into account before we did so. So I think one of the things that the pandemic did is it created the necessity for leaders to be better communicators.

The second thing I think that's really changed is employee expectations of where they work. When we pull, we're still all working from home 15 months into this. And when we pull our employees, more than half would like to work from home forever. And another 40% would like to come to the office maybe one to three days a week.

I think that may change over time. But today, there's a real expectation of remote work being a possibility, hybrid work, some work from home, some work in the office being a possibility. I think we need to adjust of how and where we see work getting done. Why do you think people like staying and working at home?

I think there's a lot of reasons. I mean, I can tell you why I like working at home and I miss the office and I miss it a lot, but I think I'm more productive at home. There's no commute.

I can take a 10-minute break, you know, go out in the living room and chat with my wife or my kids for a bit. There's, I think, as horrible as back-to-back-to-back Zoom meetings are, they're pretty efficient that you can go from one meeting to another. I'll tell you one thing I haven't missed is business travel. I used to be on the road every week or every other week,

crisscrossing the country. I'm meeting with those same people now, all from the comfort of my closet-sized home office. A lot of times wearing house slippers instead of getting dressed up in a starched shirt and tie. So there's a lot of things that are really convenient and easy about working from home. Do you think that will change? I mean,

I don't think travel will be the same again for a lot of industries. But do you see that sort of coming back, say, 2022, 2023, where people are saying, look, we need to see in person, not as much as we used to, but we need to see it once or twice a year?

I do. You know, just like I think our work environment is going to be a hybrid work from home, work from the office. I think our work travel is going to be a hybrid. There's going to be more Zoom meetings than there were pre-pandemic, that's for sure.

but there'll be more travel than there's been during pandemic and that's for sure i think there'll be some happy media you know used to be i might travel to new york or washington dc for you know two or three meetings cram them into a day and and do a quick round trip you know i'm going to think long and hard about whether those can be done

those need to be done face to face or whether they can be done screen to screen. Thanks, Sam. You had a question? Yeah, Jonathan, you know, you had a kind of an advantage overstock had something of an advantage being a tech company being an online retailer. What do you see for, you know, the big box stores that haven't made that shift or that are trying to make it right now? Are they going to be successful? Do they have advantages and having physical infrastructure in place?

Well, you know, I think every big box retailer needs to have an e-commerce part of their business. And I, you know, people have always said, well, there's certain things you can't buy online. No one will buy them online. Two decades ago, that was books. You know, people said, I could never sell books online. Well, along came Amazon and what happened? You know, if we buy physical books, we buy them online.

Then a decade ago, people said, I will never be able to sell clothes online. There's, you know, size, color, fit, everything's just a little different. My wife buys her swimsuits online now. I mean, I can't think of a more difficult clothing purchase than a women's swimsuit to buy online. And, you know, people have changed. And, you know, then folks have said, well, it's going to be hard to buy furniture online.

And, you know, that was the penetration from brick and mortar to e-commerce was slow. It was happening in about 1% to 3% a year. And pre-pandemic, it was 23% of home furnishings were purchased online. Now it's high 30s, edging toward 40%. I think that will continue to stick and grow. And so I think brick and mortars do need an online presence.

That said, there's something nice about having a place to showroom furniture, to having a place for ease of returns. You know, you buy a big area rug or a sofa, it's expensive to ship to you. And if you return it, it's expensive to ship back. The thought of being able to

return that to a local store or a local partner makes a lot of sense. So look, I think the gods of economics ultimately like omni-channel businesses that have brick and mortar and e-commerce. But I'll tell you this, I love an e-commerce business where we're not paying rent around the country for showrooms or stores, you know, in malls or strip malls.

We have one minute left here before the break, Jonathan. Can you briefly tell us, how is the hiring situation right now? Are you able to find qualified people or has this been a difficult time to do that? Well, it's hard. You know, we're headquartered in Utah. Utah has a 2.8% unemployment rate. Unemployment's low in the country. We have begun a pilot program to hire technologists to be permanently remote so that we can...

expand the number of states we recruit from. I think workers have the upper hand today, and that's good for them, but it makes hiring difficult. Great. Well, this is Broken Potholes. We're with Jonathan Johnson, CEO of Overstock.com. After this big break, we'll be right back and talk more about business and what's going to happen in America with the economy. We'll be right back.

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Welcome back to Broken Potholes with your hosts Chuck Warren and Sam Stone. On us with us today is Jonathan Johnson, CEO of Overstock.com. You can find them at Overstock.com. The name says it all. Jonathan, you took over from a very vivacious gambler. He's everything a founder really needs to be, right? He saw around the corners that others said,

You're just crazy. It's not there. And the one thing both you and I know about Patrick is he was always willing to roll the dice. And that's a very unique quality. And it's in limited supply in a lot of ways. How has that transition been for you? How does it treat how you manage and lead Overstock now?

That's a really insightful question, Chuck. You know, we had a very strong visionary leader who founded Overstock and was a great mentor to me. But like most founders, he was hands-on. You know, he was around when we were less than 50 employees and could make a lot of decisions. And when we were 2,000 employees, he could make a lot of decisions. And, you know, when I attended Overstock,

Overstock's executive meeting for the first time as the CEO. It had been a number of years since I've been there because I've been running our technology arm. And there were two things that struck me. One was how familiar the business was from when I'd been its president and been involved in it. And two was how many of the executives were looking to the end of the table where I was sitting for me to make decisions. And founders, I think, are...

prone to make more decisions than maybe non-founder leaders are. And what I did for those first several months was even when I knew the decision and knew what I wanted to do and what I thought was right, was to let the team discuss it and hash it out until they were comfortable with

making the decision. Our business was big enough that one person couldn't micromanage it from the CEO chair. We had capable people who knew how to do things. They just needed the freedom to make decisions. So that's been part of the change. The other part of the change is Overstock's become much more focused on

Under my leadership, we're focused on delivering dream homes for all. We're shutting down parts of the business that aren't that. I think employees and shareholders and customers all crave focused execution. And that's what we're trying to do right now.

Sam, do you have a question for Jonathan?

Well, Sam, that's a good clarifying question. I'm a big believer in intent-based leadership. And if people know the objective

and they're competent in their jobs, then any leader can cede control to them. But those are the two things that need to be clear. There needs to be a clarity of objective. And I spend a lot of time figuring out what our goals are and where we want to march to. And then why I need to have a competent team. And the more competent people are and the clearer our objectives are,

the less I have to do and the more fun our employees have making decisions themselves within the structure of our stated objective and goals. If those goals aren't clear, seeding control,

you're probably not going to get the results you want. So I spend my time setting goals and trying to communicate those and then letting people run. How many times, Jonathan, let's say, how many times have you gone and you had an idea, you've got to set a goal, and then after collaborating, doing a deep dive, you just abandon it. You say that's just, that's not the right time or, you know, the stats, the facts don't back up what I want to do. How often does that happen? Well,

Well, it happens all the time. And I think good leaders need to have the mantra of fail, failure, fast and view those kind of strategies

starts and stops as learning experiences. And I think one of the hardest things for leaders is having what they call a so-called great idea, implementing it, and then the data shows it's, you know, the customers don't like it or it's not working. Admitting that that was not so great an idea is

pivoting, learning from it, stopping it altogether. There's a lot of different choices to take, but being hardheaded and just plowing down the same road, even if it's rocky and not leading anywhere is a big mistake. And so that's another thing I'm very much focused on. In fact, we just had

We've started a process with our executives where I ask them all to think of what are some of the things that we're doing, the processes that we have, the things that we're selling that we should stop doing. We're calling it a destruction exercise. And I got a lot of great ideas and we're powering through discussing them collaboratively to decide what to stop doing rather than keep doing things that don't make sense.

Jonathan, how important is it, because based on what you're saying, I think there's something there that maybe many leaders in all levels of business and government don't understand. How important is it to allow the people underneath you to fail and learn from those failures and grow from them?

Oh, I think it's really important. And I think you have to put guardrails up so that, you know, that when people make mistakes, they're not tragic mistakes, but they're things that we can learn from. And I think, you know, having the term, using the term fail or failure in normal conversations makes it easier. We have a...

a process at Overstock where if someone's given an assignment and they come back and report on its status, they're allowed to start their report one of two ways.

Project complete. I've got done what you asked me to get done, or I have failed. And we do that, as harsh as it sounds, for two reasons. One, to get, I think, comfortable with that word. But two, to empower the person in charge to leap over hurdles, break through walls, because I don't know anyone who's comfortable reporting to a boss, starting to report saying, I have

I mean, people can barely spit it out of their mouth. And so they work really hard not to say that. And so, you know, we use that kind of process and that language to try and make one failure okay and two, make it so it happens less often.

We have one minute left to our next break, Jonathan. As we go into this next segment, I have two questions for you. Years ago, I read a book in college about the U.S. auto industry, and at the time, the U.S. auto industry was getting just demolished by the Japanese automakers. And one of the premises was, is we used to have people work the front lines and work their ways up. The one thing I've known about you over the 12 years at Overstock, you have served many roles in

When we come back, I want to talk about how those roles influenced you in your current position and what you'll learn from them. This is Broken Potholes with Jonathan Johnson at Overstock.com, CEO, and our friend Sam Stone, who's a New York visiting family. We'll be right back.

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all the while reminding them to vote. Visit GoDaddy today to kick off your 2022 campaign right. Welcome back to Broken Potholes. This is your host, Chuck Warren and Sam Stone with us today. We have the pleasure of having Jonathan Johnson, CEO of Overstock.com. You can buy your home furnishings for your new home or your old home there. And please visit Overstock.com. Jonathan, we were talking before the break about you've served many roles,

at overstock.com. How have those various roles helped you become a better leader, a better visionary for what the company needs to do to meet expectations and grow? Well, you know, I'll tell you one of the first assignments I volunteered for at Overstock. As I mentioned, I was the general counsel, the legal department of one, and a contract came across my desk

for a request for a proposal from Palm, the company that sold Palm Pilot personal digital assistance, you know, a thing of the past. It kind of tells you how long I've been with Overstock. And they were liquidating their returns on eBay and they weren't pleased with

you know, the money they were getting from that. And they were doing a request for proposal. And I was marking up the contract and I saw that there was a merchandising aspect. There was receiving and testing aspect in the warehouse. There was all these different aspects to what was going to be a bake-off competition with eBay. And I went to our CEO and I said,

I would like to be in charge of this project. I volunteered for it. And he said, what do you know about marketing? I said, not a lot. What do you know about receiving and warehousing and testing electronics? I said, not a lot, but I know people in the company who do those things. Let me be the adult supervision. He said, okay, well, let's give it a go. We started holding a daily meeting. We won the request for proposal. We had a bake-off against eBay and

we won and we started liquidating all those products back, you know, this was way back in 2003. And I became the fifth member of the executive team because I volunteered for something, you know, since then I've had a lot of different roles, but what I've found most important is to spend time walking the warehouse, actually pick packing and shipping product,

Getting on customer care calls, talking to our customers, nothing's more scary than talking to an angry customer. But nowhere do you learn more about your business and where it's not working than talking to customers, seeing product come in and ship out. I'm a big believer that leaders need to walk the floor,

do grunt work. As soon as I wind up sitting in the C-suite thinking great, you know, CEO-like thoughts, I wind up turning into Dilbert's pointy-haired boss who's got a bunch of crazy ideas that don't make any sense. So I think it's important to touch a lot of pieces of the business and get your hands dirty. Jonathan, not that you would know a number, but

Like other tech companies, is Overstock spawning a lot of folks who are working their way up there and then moving out on their own to create new businesses? Is that something you're seeing as part of your business and your industry? It has been part of our business, and I want it to always be part of our business. We do semi-annual employee reviews.

And I really view those not like a getting called to the principal's office and say, you know, Joe, you did this right and this wrong. And Mary, you know, you made these mistakes and here were the good things you did. I view those as career enhancement meetings. I asked my direct reports, you know, what are your goals? What are your goals at Overstock? And what are your goals beyond Overstock? And how can I help groom you to achieve those goals? Um,

I really think it's in every leader's best interest to try and groom his or her employees to be great employees at the company and beyond. And, you know, just like in

college basketball, there's this whole pedigree of coaches that have worked for Coach K or in the pros that have worked for Popovich with the Spurs. I think business leaders and leaders of any sort need to be trying to groom a pedigree of people that see them as their mentor when they go out and start something new. Chuck, you and I have talked about that a lot, but

you have a lot of companies in Arizona that have moved here, but not many that have actually been built and grown here the way overstock was grown in Utah. Yeah.

And what Jonathan's talking about really creates a synergy and energy in a city, in an economy, doesn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely it does. Jonathan, as we wrap up here, we've got less than 45 seconds here. What would you tell our audience who wants – someone who wants to be a CEO of a major billion-dollar company one day? What are the three things you think they should work on to get in that role?

Well, I think one, you got to volunteer for projects that are outside your comfort zone because it'll give you skills you don't have. Two, you got to always try and make your boss's life easier. And three, you got to be a continual learner. And I think that begins with reading the newspaper every day and being a big reader of books. Learn, learn, learn. Jonathan Johnson, CEO of Overstock Dom. Thanks a million for coming on. We appreciate it, my friend. Have a great day. Have a great day.

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my only sunshine you make me happy

Welcome back to Broken Potholes with Chuck Warren and Sam Stone. Today we have the irrepressible, irrepressible, yeah, that's it, irrepressible. That's it. Kylie, who's actually going to leave us this afternoon to go to a boxing match. Who knew she was so violent? But anyway, today she is going to... She just claimed to be slave labor, Chuck. Well, yeah, she claimed to be slave labor, but I've never seen a refund for Friday paychecks. And she's going to a boxing match today. But today she has the sunshine moment. And since the Olympics are around the corner and seem to be a complete cluster...

We've decided to go down memory lane about the Olympics. And Kylie, go ahead. Well, so as many people may not know, this will be the first Olympics since 1996 where Michael Phelps has not participated.

And he lives here now in Scottsdale, correct? Yes, lives in Scottsdale. I believe he's also, I'm not sure if he's paid, but may volunteer his time at ASU. I think he volunteers. Yes. But anyways, so he initially started when he was 15 years old and became the youngest male swimmer to make the Olympic team in 68 years.

And he ended up finishing the Olympics with 28 Olympic medals, 23 of those being gold. So since retiring from the Olympics and even during the Olympics, he's always struggled with his identity outside of being a swimmer. And so that really took an effect on his mental health. And he did say that during the pandemic lockdowns, it was kind of one of his lowest points ever.

So he decided to kind of take a step and start talking to someone. And it was he said that that simple he did a lot of other things, but that simple step really saved his life. And so he's become a spokesperson for the community and is really pushing people to just talk and to be open about it, because he said that everyone was calling him the strongest person that they knew. And he and his head was like, I'm the weakest.

And so a few things that he's doing is he's partnered with Talkspace, which is an affordable therapy app that's available 24-7 where people can just talk when they need someone. Because he says that it doesn't just come when an appointment – your mental health doesn't just stop when right. That's fantastic. And I think people don't realize a lot of times some of what appear to be the strongest people – and obviously he would be pretty much like you said at the top of that list.

Well, absolutely. You harbor the same doubts and the same concerns and the same mental challenges that everyone else does. Yeah. And I haven't had a chance to watch this, but he partnered during the pandemic with an HBO sports documentary called The Weight of the Gold. And it seeks to inspire discussion about mental health issues, encourages people to seek help and highlights the need for the readily available support. And many Olympians participate in this, including Michael Phelps, Lolo Jones, Chris

Bode Miller, Sean White. So many Olympians face this, which is something that people aren't aware of just because of... Many athletes, many people, period. Yeah. One in five people. So Michael Phelps just really wants people to know that if you need help to get help. He also has the Michael Phelps Foundation, which he's adjusted his mission, which it started out with when he realized that

People didn't always have access to aquatic centers to be able to train the way that he did when he was younger. So he's partnered with the Boys and Girls Club to make that available, swim lessons, aquatic activities, organized swim training, stuff like that. But he's also adjusted his mission to include health, wellness, and goal setting. And he does this all through the Boys and Girls Clubs and the Special Olympics International. But again, it just provides...

the resources that people need that they may not have. Well, kudos to Michael Phillips. He's, you know, this is just an issue people who battle mental health problems, they just don't want to admit, right? It's easy to say I broke my leg or I have cancer, but, you know, there's still just this, they feel there's a scorn. I think sometimes people

They probably exaggerate what they think people think about them if they're battling mental health, especially now. But I still there because no one wants to admit. I think maybe the thing with mental health and the hesitation to admit it is that, you know, it's a lifelong struggle. Right. So it's something you have to pay attention to and treat no differently than my daily workout or eating or things of that nature. And we need more people like him.

to speak out about it, to show that you can have a very successful life career-wise, that you can have relationships as he does and married and has, I think he has a couple kids, and that you can have a fulfilling life. But this is something that you need to give time and energy towards. If you look...

It's something as a conservative Republican I think the government needs to get more involved in. I know in Arizona where there's just not enough beds for people battling mental health issues and that's something Nancy Barrow has really focused on in the state senate.

It's a really important issue. We are way short of where we need to be. And I should pop the collar on the city of Phoenix here a little bit and point out we have great swim programs and great pools, and they are open. So, you know, if you're out there, you need to get your kids in one of those. Get out of the heat. Get out of the heat. Yeah, get them going. Get them going. And, you know, Chuck, you're so right about that because someone gets an injury.

And you're just seen as tough for dealing with it, right? But you have a mental injury. And even though that may not be the perception on the outside, people in that state view themselves as weak. They view it as a weakness. And especially if you're a successful person, that's a really hard thing to face. It really is. You know, I remember years ago, for those of those who are young, and so that would be Jamie and Kip in here today, right?

There was a movie back in the 80s called Crocodile Dundee, and there was a scene that I remember. He was at a—for those who don't know, he was from the Australian Outback, and they were doing a magazine profile on him. He's with the producer, and she took him to a hoity-toity Manhattan dinner party. And during the party, she whispered to him that this woman was seeing a shrink, and he goes, well, what's a shrink? She goes, well, it's a doctor where you talk about your problems. And his comment was, well, doesn't she have any friends?

And, you know, we need to be more open and allow those around us to talk. And a lot of times we just need to sit back and let them talk. We don't have to have answers, but sometimes they need someone just to talk to. I want to talk about a couple of news items today that I saw, Sam, and with Kip as well. So there's an article out today that just sort of infuriated me, but it's no surprising because people are just basically selfish now. So

before during COVID people went to rescues and rescued dogs well now they're finding out that dogs take time and now that you know a lot of the quarantines that were in play for COVID a lot of restrictions or people are going back to work and so now like well I don't have time for this dog so they're they're put they're returning them return to sender basically to these dog shelters and and

One, the fact that they just do that's disgusting. But two, I think that really symbolizes where we are as a society right now. You know, if the dog's inconvenience, I don't want to do it. If a friend's going through a problem, I don't want to bother with it. If a friend supports Biden or Trump, I don't want to – they don't want to be friends anymore. If anything's inconveniencing me now –

You know, I don't want to be part of my life. And so when we talk about this loneliness factor that's out there, you know, part of it is, is a lot of people have put themselves in that loneliness corner. They've not taken the time to develop a relationship, any relationship, whether it's a friendship, romantic relationship.

it takes commitment. It takes time. You're going to have ups and downs. And, you know, I told my daughters, my oldest is married, but, you know, I gave them a list of various things they need to have done before they told me they're getting engaged. I didn't want to hear about it. And one of it was you have to be in a major fight and work through it.

And if you can't do that while you're dating, I just really have no interest in meeting the supposed person you're going to marry because that is life. You're going to have differences because, um, one of the great things, um, in life is that we're all very unique. We have different ways of viewing things. Um,

And I think that's the other part about mental health crisis a lot of times is that – I'm trying to think who did the quote, but it's like when you meet someone, you have this bond. You're like, oh, me too. I think a lot of times people have mental health problems or anxiety. They think they're the only ones going through it, and I think they'd be really surprised how many people battle those same fears and anxieties. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and –

I think it speaks to something on the instant gratification society that we are developing. Right. You know, both with these mental health challenges and then with these shelter animals that are being returned, you know, you have people who are looking for quick fixes. Right. And there are no quick fixes in life. Right. That dog you made a commitment to or that cat, whatever it is,

You made a commitment to them and they're reciprocating it. And that is a lifetime commitment. It makes me sick hearing those stories. But I think it's a sickness that's infested our society and is infesting the world much, much more with tech, with the advance of technology.

Yeah, it really has become – it's really – and people would not view it this way because they like to say this is what happens in politics or business. We're in a dog-eat-dog world. The reality is most people live a dog-eat-dog life. I don't see them being very selfless. They are quick to discard what does not bring them instant gratification. And like I said, I think that's part of the loneliness aspect.

plague we have right now that people just quickly dismiss something because it takes a little work. And, you know, as much as you and I and Kip and Jamie get along well, we all are unique people with our own interests, our own fears, our own

quibs in life. And I don't know. The article to me is just representative of everything that's going wrong right now in the country, more than anything. Yeah, absolutely. Go there or go to any men's public restroom and just look at the mess they leave behind. And so we're asking people to take care of their health. We're asking people to look for their neighbor, but they can't simply walk

wipe up afterwards or wash their hands or trash is littered. I mean, am I right, Sam? I mean, it's gross. It's gross. I've had a saying for years that you can tell what kind of a person is by whether or not they return the grocery cart. Yes. Yeah. It takes 10 seconds more, maybe.

Maybe. Right. But you see them, they just hop on the grass or put in the. I mean, no, it's just so we keep saying, well, we need to all unite. Well, if you can't do those little things, you're not going to do the big things. You know, and I think that goes towards leadership. We were talking about Jonathan Johnson today. He went through and Jonathan has served in various roles. And, you know, he has shown that each role, each thing you volunteer for, you pick up a new skill set.

And now he's able to lead a company that does over $2 billion in sales a year, has a $4 billion evaluation. And it's not sexy per se as a Facebook or Twitter. It's in the news all the time, but they're providing almost 2,000 jobs and plus all the other jobs that the manufacturing of the home wears and furnishers and everything.

Delivery and everything else. Yeah. It's the little things that lead us to accomplish great things, and I'm really concerned about that with America right now, and that's why this dog shelter article just really struck me. It's a dog, and they just simply said—I had a friend I was telling this story to this morning, and she said—

One of her son's friend's mother was going back to work and was trying to get rid of the two guinea pigs they got during COVID because she didn't want to bother them. They're guinea pigs. You put a little food and water in, they're pretty self-sufficient during the day, right? Yeah. But she found that to be bothersome, so her two kids that are around 8, 9, 10 –

Mom doesn't want to bother feeding the guinea pigs or helping the boys feed the guinea pigs before she goes and changing the cage once a month. Give them some responsibility. Exactly. That's the other thing. But the problem is she doesn't want to bother training them to do it. That's part of the problem as well.

So, Sam, what do you think about Governor Ducey's new Supreme Court justice pick this week? She's female. She worked in his administration, which seems to be a way up in Arizona politics, which is fine. That happens all the time. That's not unique. What do we know about her? What's she going to do for the court? Yeah, I think she provides some good balance there, despite the criticisms of Doug Ducey and

you know, not picking the most conservative people necessarily for the Arizona Supreme court. I think he's done a really good job, really good job with his selections because he's,

Despite the ridiculous attacks of the Arizona Republic, this is actually a fairly well-balanced court. It has a range of opinion. It simply doesn't feature a leftist bent. And she is someone who is, you know, has real good experience in victim advocacy and things like that that is needed. There is a maybe the most important thing on any bench is

is having a range, like you just talked about with Jonathan, a range of experiences and people who can bring different legal views and different life experiences to those decisions. Yeah, exactly. And look, Doug Ducey has done a remarkable job with the court. And for the Arizona Republic, I think they're not happy until the state flag's red with a sickle on it. I mean, they are just simply...

Oh, they've gone completely loopy. I mean you had Elvia Diaz yesterday promoting critical race theory, which is absolutely racism. They have gone off the rails. Absolutely. Well, folks, we hope you enjoyed the show today with Jonathan Johnson, CEO of Overstock.com. Visit them. You can also find us at BrokenPotholes.vote and of course on Facebook and Twitter. And on behalf of KIPP.

Myself and Sam Stone, we appreciate your time. We hope you stay cool inside. Don't go outside a lot, unless you have a lot of water. This is Broken Potholes. Have a great Saturday afternoon and a great week coming up. Thanks a million.

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