Nicole Martin on How Rising National Tensions Affect Local Government
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Welcome to Broken Potholes with Sam Stone and Chuck Warren on 96 AM, The Patriot in Phoenix, Arizona. Today we are with the Director of Communications for Provo City, Nicole Martin. Not only is Nicole Martin the former Director of Communications or is currently the Director of Communications of Provo, but she was formerly that title in Sandy, Utah, which I believe is at the second or third largest city in Utah now.

Nicole? Provo is the third largest city, I believe. So Sandy was a second? No, Provo is actually bigger than Sandy. Oh, and then she was also a former city councilman for Harriman. So Nicole brings a unique perspective on municipal politics that we're interested to get into today. That's an awful lot of pain you've been suffering, Nicole. My apologies.

I know for obviously I haven't admitted that I have a problem yet clearly so 24/7 24/7 I live city government. So Nicole, sorry about that. Nicole can you hear me? I can. Hey Nicole. All right about that we lost a step in there. So Nicole tell us what has been your biggest surprise being a director of communications for Provo and Sandy City? What has caught you a surprise that most people would not realize about your job?

Well, I mean, obviously the core of my job is one of education. And so, you know, the flip side of that is realizing how vital the services we provide are to the citizens and how little informed they are about how those services are provided. So the lack of education on such a fundamental role surprises me. And then in the era of social media,

just frankly, the meanness of the citizenry, the ability of the online channel to bring out the vitriol is challenging, to say the least, and disheartening at best. Hey, Nicole, in that line, and I don't know what Provo's been doing, but here in Phoenix, where I work at the city of Phoenix also, we've had all of our meetings in the last, I mean, since COVID started the last year and change, they've been online.

And citizens are calling in. You don't see their face. I've got to tell you, the commentary, what you're just talking about has gotten much worse with that level of anonymity here. Are you seeing that same kind of thing in Provo?

I MEAN, A THOUSAND PERCENT. I MEAN, IT'S NOT THAT IT'S EVER BEEN A FUN PLACE TO BE AS A LOCAL GOVERNMENT BECAUSE YOU DO GET THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS. AND FRANKLY, I WELCOME THOSE IF IT'S IN THE SPIRIT OF CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM. BUT THROUGH 2020, I THINK

It took a turn that, you know, involved death threats and really mean, mean spirited language and an inability to turn the tide of the negativity. I mean, I've been in city government, as Chuck mentioned, for a long time and have seen everything and, you know, wildfires and all manner of crises. And there were times there.

during the Black Lives Matter and in the heat of the mask mandate, where I really was frozen as a PIO, as a public information officer, because I knew no matter what I put out there, I was creating a storm. And it was just a matter of what that storm was going to look like and how bad it was going to be. I mean, it really, all of the PIOs,

were poised for disaster because inevitably you would feel waves of it in your city. And that's a scary place to be when you're on the front lines of all of this vitriol and anger that is directed at all levels of government, some rightfully so, some not. But you are, in fact, the easiest channel for them to talk to. And they are not talking nicely. Not at all. Not at all. We've seen the same thing here in Phoenix. It has been unbelievable.

unbelievable to the point that we have on numerous occasions had our police department escorting officials in and out of the building working with all of us on our home security these kinds of things it is a really astounding phenomenon what's going on where these political disagreements have become literally a matter of life and death and and i've said for a year now i think sooner or later we're going to have a public official who gets killed over this stuff and that is

so far beyond wrong, I can't even begin. Nicole, this is Chuck. Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead, Nicole. Please go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, because emotion reigns and social media acts as such a wildfire, what I found interesting from my perspective is I have such a differing opinion on social media depending on which hat I'm wearing. If I'm wearing my PIO hat,

Typically, I am shouting the praises of social media for all of the good it can do. You know, I can tell about a crisis. I can push out timely information like I can't in any other way. When I put on my city council hat, it is trauma-inducing vitriol and a breeding ground for just wanton stupidity. They don't want the truth.

They want to bash somebody. And so it's hard to love it on one hand and know the power of it and also see a really bad side of it. And I worry, frankly, about future elected officials who, in their right mind, that is a good policymaker, would want to throw themselves into the mess that is or can be local politics. And if we only have the bad ones, then we only get bad policy.

Great point. Great point. Nicole, how does the cities you've dealt with, how, first of all, have you seen a increase of violent threats or death threats against city officials? And how does law enforcement for a city handle those? I mean, what do they determine is serious and not serious? I think it's something people need to hear because a lot of our listeners and those in the political world just don't understand how often people are just

Just saying things they would never say in a normal circumstance. They seem to lose their minds. How do you handle situations like that? Well, and again, 2020 was one of those years where we got lots of practice with having to protect

our elected officials. Our Mayor Kapusi was on a number of occasions had police escorts both visibly and non-visible. We had a number of protests where we had to make sure that we had obviously strategic police enforcement. We had death threats. I mean, I can't even count the amount of death threats certainly that came

the mayor's way, the city council as well, as they took a different stance on the mask mandate.

And again, they don't come from reason. They come from emotion. But that doesn't negate the need to provide additional police protection. And the downside of it is we're all wanting fiscal responsibility from our government. And yet the need for heightened security only increases the cost unnecessarily because

because we can't even remain civil. And so, you know, we have to bring on extra protection because we as a society can't control ourselves. And that then costs us more money. So it's just a vicious cycle, but notably worse in 2020. And I fear that the Pandora's box may have been opened and people's behaviors changed.

have been tolerated in ways that they shouldn't have been. And I don't know if we can pull it back into stability like it ought to be, frankly. That's a great point. I hope we can pull this back. I'm a pretty combative person, but I like to fight over policy. I don't like to be tossing threats around. I mean, and this is here in Phoenix, we have a Homeland Security Bureau. We're the fifth largest city in the country.

We have a large amount of police resources to begin with, but they have had to staff up that bureau. We've spent millions of dollars on overtime dealing with those same protests. All these things that are problems across the country are being exacerbated by this behavior. And it's... Yeah, and it's...

Go ahead. It's a sad statement. Sorry, I didn't mean to step on you, Sam. It's a sad statement on society and that we're seeing it at every city across the United States at one level or another, I think shows the need for us to make a difference. And I think, frankly, local government is the place that that can happen. So if we're to look for a positive side here, local government, for all of its challenges with

with being close to the people has the exact benefit of being close to the people so we can community build and i think that's the only way we start to make a difference is by community building and bringing back you know the the kindness and the the character elements of a city uh that that help us get along and and you know not focus on our differences but rather our goals

Yeah, I've talked about this on the show before, but I think most people don't realize when you look down at the local level, 90 or 95 percent plus of what a city government does, everybody agrees on. In other words, those are unanimous votes. They're on a consent agenda. And as such, we kind of just blow right past them every week. But and then we spend all our time on the things we disagree on. Right. Which which is good government. But I think it gives a misimpression that.

Because frankly, we do agree on 90% or 95% of what needs to happen at the local and municipal level, don't we? Oh, so you bring me into a topic that I love. And I just did a presentation for all of the PIOs

in Utah and it's about storytelling. And you bring up a really good point of the need for government at all levels to do a better job of telling the story of what they do. I mean, honestly, there is not a better return on investment for the amount you pay locally. If you were to look at the tiny amount that you pay for your local government

and compare it to the return on investment in terms of the services you get, you would never complain about the amount you pay, but

city government employees by and large, and I have known many of them, are the best and the brightest, and they just put their heads down and do their work. And they're not good at tooting their own horn. They're just good at providing the services. If we were to do a better job at sharing what we do on a regular basis, just as you point out, Sam, we build up community trust that would help us when we hit a crisis. If

If the only time we're ever talking is when we're yelling at each other across the table, that's not a relationship at all. And you have to treat that city-citizen, you know, that as a relationship. And then we can get through those tougher times at least less painfully than if we didn't have some sort of dialogue prior to that. Absolutely. Absolutely. We've got just about 45 seconds.

Go ahead, Chuck. We've got 30 seconds. Yeah, we're with Nicole Martin, Director of Communications, Provo City, Utah, former city councilwoman herself. When we come back after the segment, we're going to ask Nicole how on earth she got in this crazy business, what made her take the leap into city politics.

And tell her a little bit more about herself and some cast of characters she's met as she's been a PIO in cities and a city councilman. This is Broken Potholes with Sam Stone and Chuck Warren. And today's guest, Nicole Martin from Director of Communications for Opus City. We'll be back. In a world driven by the use of technology, it's important to secure your campaign website that includes your first and last name as soon as you decide to run for office.

Here at DotVote, our mission is for voters to remember your name while providing a website that is easy to remember, straightforward, and tells voters what to do. And that is to vote. Visit GoDaddy today and get a Your.Vote website. That's www.yourname.vote. The internet is in your favor, so use it. Welcome back to Broken Potholes with Chuck Warren and Sam Stone. On the line with us, Nicole Martin, PIO for Provo, Utah, former city councilwoman,

Also in Utah, which leads us to an important question, Nicole, how did you make such a terrible mistake is to get into this business? I know it's common. We've all made that mistake. But what led you here?

Well, okay, so you will find it ironic that my first day working for local government was, in fact, on April 1st. So the fact that it was April Fool's Day seems a perfect description for the last decade of my life in local government. But as crazy as it is, it is, in fact, addicting, which is why I'm still at it just a few years later. Nice.

I know exactly what you mean. I had no intention of walking into City Hall ever. I was the guy that said, I will get someone elected. I'll drop them off at the door and see them in four years. And then I got dragged into it, and I'm addicted just like you. Yeah, and that's what's happened. For me, it was communications. My background is public relations. 2009, April 1st, as I said, I...

I was drawn into local government actually wearing three hats, which is not uncommon at cities. I was the public information officer, the economic development director, and essentially the deputy mayor. It was their first PIO that they had ever had that they had brought on after being the subject of an investigative report for nepotism. Yeah.

And actually, there was questionable nepotism. They did, in fact, need a PIO, which is one of those things that is a huge lesson learned for any city. Communications is vital, and you have to have a good communications team and staff.

Prior to my being there, and like I said, with this particular investigation story, you know, they're trying to dodge and not answering what were legitimate concerns. And frankly, the right of the citizens to know about their hiring practices is

TURNED INTO A REALLY LONG STANDING CORE REPUTATION FOR THAT CITY. SO ACROSS THE BOARD, YOU'VE GOT TO COMMUNICATE WITH THOSE YOU REPRESENT. SO THAT'S WHAT DREW ME IN TO HERMAN CITY AS THEIR PIO. I WAS THERE FOR ABOUT THREE AND A HALF YEARS AND THEN JUMPED OVER TO A BIGGER CITY.

Sandy City, as Chuck said at the outset. And in that role, got to do a little more of the policy side as deputy mayor and again, communicating for a larger city. And interestingly enough, one on the east side versus the west side, which is different. And I've had conversations with Chuck and others about there is a different feeling, at least in Utah, geographically on how they communicate.

And then while I was at Sandy, I don't know what came over me, but I decided to run for local government. In truth, it was actually trying to honestly prevent

a candidate from getting in who I really felt would be poor for the future course of the city. And so it felt very altruistic throwing myself out there. At least that's what I like to tell myself. And, you know, having been in it, I like to say I served four years in the big house and let myself out for good behavior. And I would give it zero out of five stars, would not recommend. No, I'm just kidding. It was...

It was probably one of the most challenging and learning times I've ever had.

I mean, in terms of making policy in a dynamic, fast-growing community is a challenge because it is filled with NIMBYs who do not want their city to change. And so everything you do is wrong, and you only are making enemies. And so it's a challenge. But again, I must love it or I love the abuse. Something along there. Therapy is probably required. It's true.

It sounds like they've had you do pretty much everything except hang off the back of the garbage truck picking up the cans. Hey, and I would do that, right? I would do that. Why not? But that's the way of it, Sam. You work for city government. That's one of the things that I do love about it is I have worked for city government for over a decade, and I still find it fascinating. I still learn new things. I still enjoy the personal touch, however that is, working.

with the citizens and actually making an impact. And even the challenging ones give me a laugh. And I have plenty of funny stories, you know, that are very Parks and Rec. You know, I get good laughs because it's not that far off from the crazy circus that is local government. How close to life is Parks and Recreation? People have not seen the sitcom. How close to life is it?

It is so close. It is so close. It is sadly so close. You know, they say it is just really seeing the sausage made. And, you know, and if you can bear it, you can now go online and watch any one of your local governments, you know, go through what is just so often just inane red tape. But the beauty of it is in the midst of what feels like

dysfunction, somehow policy is made. So the checks and balances of government work, but it is comical at times and painful often. I think most people would be shocked to realize that the two TV shows that I've seen that come closest to what I've seen in government are Parks and Rec and Veep. It is definitely not the West Wing.

No, no, no, no, no. And the dialogue is not as elegant, right? Nor are people getting on talking about Japanese time zone differences and getting rid of the penny. It's a little more. Nicole, for our listeners, what percentage of the citizenry you work with in these cities are unaware of actually what's going on with their city government?

And I know that's your job. I know that's your job to educate them. And that's a hard job. I mean, it's a really hard live. What percentage do you think are even aware or pay any semblance of attention to what's going on in the city council meetings with the mayor and so forth?

Oh, it is such a small percentage. There's such a small percentage that pay attention. But again, I go back to social media and sort of the amplification of it. So let's say you have, you know,

you know, maybe 10 frequent flyers in your city council. And they're the ones that absolutely know everything. But let's say they have an agenda, which inevitably they do. They become the influential on the Facebook group where they are then able to essentially view their viewpoint, their

unabated. And again, they already have the credibility that the government never has because we start out with no credibility. You know, everything we do is for nefarious. So you, you have the ability of a very small number of your citizens to rile up a

a large number. And now, of course, they'll use things like then going to the media where you'll start having news stories come out. And the damage or the challenge comes in when you have weak political officials who respond only to public clamor. So good policy making goes out the window because you have 15 really influential who were able to make enough of a fuss to

to change the course of what would have been really good policy. That happens. I've seen that happen. And that's a huge problem. And I think that is one of those things that worries me a lot, particularly in developing communities where these decisions are 50-year decisions. Yeah, absolutely. Nicole, I want to continue this train of thought when we come back. Broken potholes coming back in just a moment.

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Welcome back to Broken Potholes with Sam Stone and Chuck Warren. On the line with us today, Nicole Martin, PIO for Provo, Utah, public information officer. For those of you who don't quite have government lingo planted in your brain yet. But, Nicole, when we left the last segment, you were talking about some of the challenges you have communicating with the public, how news is covered these days. And one of the things that's really changed here in Phoenix is

About 10 years ago, we actually had two full-time reporters from the flagship newspaper here, the Arizona Republic. We had another full-time reporter from a couple of different TV stations. You had a big newsroom at Phoenix City Hall. This time, we have maybe 20, 24 people who are full-time assigned to cover our state politics. Phoenix government's about a third the size of the state of Arizona. We have one part-time reporter.

who's assigned to cover Phoenix News. That makes it really tough, and it amplifies the power of those folks you were talking about, the railbirds who are always there, who are always commenting and have their own opinions. They become much more powerful because there is no real news network covering all this important stuff at your local government. No, and that's exactly right. That's why I think that

cities have to look at different ways to communicate because if the only time your citizenry is hearing about your city is due to a crisis painted in a bad whether you deserve it or not and there are times when we deserve it uh if that is the only time your citizens are hearing about your city then you uh are going to have problems and and really uh going to have trouble with the

policymaking. And so it gets back to our earlier point of storytelling and the fact that the news cycle is always 24-7. Our citizens want information. They're getting it from somewhere. The vast majority of your citizens are likely to want to hear the good news of your city if they know where to go to find it. And so that then

behooves a city to look at their city communications in a new way. And one such way that I'm trying to develop in Provo is to look at the city more like a news organization. So I'll call my departments in almost like an editorial meeting once a week, and we'll talk about what is happening in your department

We'll look at the ways in which we can tell that story. Is it best told with a video? Is it told with a fact sheet? Should we do a white paper? Is this part of a larger campaign like a recycling campaign? And I actually bought them all jackets that say storytellers. I want them to realize they are storytellers.

and I want them to think of it that way. And so we developed infographics and all of those things we now try and put on a hub, which is essentially a website.

And by turning that information, and this is all in theory, we're working on it, but the idea being we create a news source. I'm calling it kind of a dashboard, an information dashboard. And the idea is if I, as a busy person, as a busy mom picking up my kids playing soccer, had 20 minutes,

and wanted to devote 10 of that to what was going on in my city, then I as a public information officer ought to make that as convenient as possible if I want my citizens to pay attention. So it is my responsibility as a city to make it convenient for them to be involved. You know what, Nicole, that's a brilliant point, and actually it ties to something we've been doing here. Phoenix has been developing an app for people to access city services.

When they first came to us, it was very limited. I've been pushing them to make it so that anything you want to do at the City of Phoenix, this app could do. But actually, I think you're touching on something else that should be in those types that I'm going to go back and start pushing for is for there to be a Phoenix newsroom as a feature in that thing. Yeah, absolutely. Because I think most people, they get up, you have a handful of apps you go to for your daily news. That's one of the ways people communicate these days.

And so we need to become one of those because, again, there is no more impactful level of government than local. I mean, we come to their doorstep to pick up their trash. We make sure their water turns on. So if we can find a way of communicating with them, Sam, like you talk about, in a convenient, timely way, again, we can tell our stories on an ongoing basis about the good we're doing. And then when we have crisis, we build up the goodwill we need to get through it.

It's a fantastic point. Chuck? Nicole, as we have our closing minute here with you, why should people get involved with local government? Why should people make that a career? Why should people run for office?

I have seen too many people get involved in city government who should never be involved. It inflates their ego for some crazy reason. I'm always just inwardly laughing at the fact that we need to remind ourselves this is just a city. We need people who are not in it for themselves, but have the political courage,

to make the decisions that will matter in 10 years and 20 years. I ran for four years and made the decisions that made me very unpopular. And I feel very good about my service as a result. And thank you. It's not that I didn't listen to the citizens, but I also just made good decisions. Broken potholes coming right back.

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Welcome back to Broken Potholes with your hosts Sam Stone and Chuck Warren. Airing Saturday 3 p.m. on 960 The Patriot KKNT here in Phoenix. You can catch that online. You can also catch us on Spotify. You can catch us on Substack. You can catch us on Apple Podcasts. Wherever you love to listen, we're there. And Chuck, thanks for joining us.

Thank you for having Nicole on with us today, because that was a fascinating conversation with someone else who has another perspective on city government. It is a really different environment. Well, it's Nicole's. Nicole's a dear friend. And I actually talked her into running for city council. And we're still friends. And it's been tenuous at times because of that. She's a big fan.

Clearly a very forgiving human, Chuck. Yeah, she is a very forgiving. I mean, she went she is a person that went into it for the right reasons.

And the amount of vitriol she dealt with was remarkable. And there came a point, talking about social media, I would have to remind her on phone calls every so often, stop reading social media, stop reading the comments. And I do believe that experience has made her a remarkable PIO that she is. She's probably one of the better ones in the state.

She has worked in the biggest cities. She has a wonderful relationship with the mayor. She is engaging. But I think having that experience as an elected official probably gave her a real sense of empathy as well. And so, but, you know, I mean, there's just times. I mean, look, people are just horses, petunias. They just simply...

They're cruel. They're vicious. And it's like she made the comment. She has seen time and again a group of 15, 20 people decide a policy of a city of six digits. It's incredible. Yeah. Well, here we have a city of seven digits. I mean, you know, one point seven five million people in the city of Phoenix. And it's about those same. It's 20 people. They might even be the same 20 people.

Over and over and over. It's sort of like you were telling me last Sunday about the two guys from Scottsdale, the city of Phoenix over a golf course or parking lot expansion. And they don't they don't even live in Phoenix, but they're taking your time. No. And, you know, they're taking time. They're taking money. And frankly, they are completely crazy. You know what? Yeah. What we're talking about for those folks who don't know, Phoenix has a wonderful facility called Papago Park, which is not a mountain preserve. This is not a nature riparian area. Right.

We have a baseball spring training facility there. That's where we have the city zoo. We have all sorts of recreational opportunities there for people. It's a park. It's meant to be used for public enjoyment. We expanded the zoo parking lot. Why? Because parents were having to walk with their little children on the side of a busy road from a half mile away on weekends. And it was dangerous. So we're expanding that.

The spring training, they needed a little more room because baseball teams are doing a lot more at their spring training these days. So we gave them a little bit more room. You're talking about an acre. It's not a whole lot. And these guys are throwing a fit like this is the end of the world. It is ridiculous. And they're not even residents. No, that's the best part. They're not residents of the city of Phoenix. No. So no. Let's talk about our drought, Sam. We have a drought. They say it's historic levels. Yeah.

You know, we're obviously being out the West based on people like these two folks in Scottsdale who are unprepared and unwilling to build more reservoirs or things of that nature. So we can be prepared in times of drought. But let's let's talk about how it affects the West. We have a huge problem out here at West. And I don't think a lot of people really understand the connection between drought and water levels in a lot of our lakes and rivers and that kind of thing and power generation.

Because a lot of the West, there is a lot of hydroelectric power, whether you're talking about the Hoover Dam. There's a number of hydroelectric power plants in California. All throughout the West, this is a big part of our electrical generation, and it is a big part of our green electrical generation. And this drought and the amount of water that we are pulling from the ecosystem for our uses in all our cities and in our farms and everything else,

is putting enormous pressure, they're dropping to a level we may actually see rolling blackouts across the West. The epicenter, obviously, California, because we have failed to invest in the infrastructure to protect all these things, to build more dams and reservoirs, to frankly start looking at desalination and taking some of our internal water grid away from the natural ecosystem. We haven't done those things.

And we're about to start paying a really big price. Well, yes. And for the folks of Arizona, you have a governor's race coming up in 2022. One of the primary issues, and it's not a sexy issue, really, but.

I mean, you really, the next governor is going to, I know Ducey has tried and he deserves credit for it. I think this is something he's been aware of him. Former Senator Kyle has been a leader on this issue, but the next governor is really gonna have to take the bull by the horns and have some decisions made. And those decisions will not please everybody, including some environmental groups that are gonna realize we're gonna have to do some things differently. We're gonna have to look at desalination. I saw that the legislature approved

I don't think it's a bill, but they approve whatever they call it to start looking at piping water from the Mississippi. They're going to have to put every option on the table to make this work or we're in trouble in Arizona and out West. Yeah. It's obviously Arizona is the center of that problem. We are in a very precarious position and the entire West shares our predicament. Southwest shares our predicament to some extent.

It is something they're going to have to get serious about. You're right, Chuck, 100%. There has to be a plan. There must be a real long-term plan on how we get more water, how we create more water here in the West. And if we don't do that, it's not about our economic growth. It's not about our green lawns. Folks, it's about you could wake up one day and not have water to drink.

And if you think there was a run on the stores when people thought toilet paper was getting scarce, I mean, think, folks, what's going to happen if we get to the point where your taps don't work? Sam, how far away do you think that is unless we make some changes here? I mean, it's not tomorrow, obviously, but how far away are we? It's not tomorrow. And here in Phoenix, in Phoenix proper, we're very lucky. We have a fairly large underground reservoir that can take care of our needs for several decades at least. But if you're outside of that reservoir...

This danger is on us within a decade at most, too. I mean, which in government time is a snap of the fingers. Government takes 10 years to figure out how to chew gum. I mean, it is. So if we're not on this now, we have got a problem that will have major life-threatening impacts to people here in Arizona and across the West. Let's, Sam, let's talk briefly here, a topic I want to talk about a little bit that's

That it's been interesting to me to watch the spin by news media about it is the Fauci emails that BuzzFeed did the information request for. And it's interesting. You read some obviously right of center publications and they have a complete different take, which is not false. And then you have some of the CNN report on it.

which wasn't false, but they're just trying to show how steady he was in leadership and how he took the time to answer emails, which is not false. He did. They show that, but it really is not the number one topic based on the release of the emails. What are your thoughts on that? No, this is another case where the mainstream media is now, they've lionized this guy for a year and change. And those of us who were questioning and criticizing him were called anti-science and conspiracy theorists and all these kinds of things.

Chuck, I've been in politics long enough to know a political weasel when I see one pop its head above the ground. And I took one look at that guy and how much fun he was having in the spotlight. And I said, this is not someone I'm going to trust. And the data didn't back him up a lot of times throughout this thing. The press ignored that. Well, now we have his emails where we know he knew that a lot of what he was coming out and saying publicly was not based on science. It was based on politics.

When you're talking about China and the lab leak, I don't even think it's a theory anymore. That happened. That was a conspiracy theory that he went out of his way to debunk, except that he knew it was not false. In fact, it's very likely that he issued the orders to help fund the gain of function research that led to this virus. And he knew that, too.

Well, and he's also, I mean, the U.S. government, and it's not bad, they do this, but the U.S. government invests in what's called gain of function, which he's been responsible for the grants on that on some of these. And a gain of function for people who don't understand is just changing the sample of a virus. It could be like a cold.

And then you want to see if you can make it you make it more dangerous or more contagious so you can see what a more effective response is. I mean, he's been behind that. Well, yes, to an extent. Right. More effective response. But the other side of this is these are bio weapons. I mean, that's why you do this. This is a weapon of mass destruction. And the U.S. policy for decades has been that we do not use biological weapons. We do not use chemical weapons. We refer to all of those as WMDs and our response theoretically is.

to the use of a WMD on U.S. soil by another nation is to respond in kind and quite literally nuke them. Congress, a number of years ago, had been backing that gain-of-function research. They started to see the dangers. Fauci himself, in his emails and other things, has talked about the danger that when you did that, it was almost certain one of these viruses would escape. And when you're looking at this kind of thing, I mean, realistically...

This was an incredibly dangerous thing. Congress outlawed the practice a few years back and Fauci went around it by giving the money to a nonprofit that then gave it to the Wuhan laboratory that in all likelihood then accidentally released this disease. Well, it's been humorous and saddening to watch the press is now saying, well, maybe this was caused in a lab or leaked from a lab.

If Donald Trump had won reelection, they would not even be coming to this moment of enlightenment. But now that he's out, it's sort of like, oh, we can sort of talk about this now, which is another issue, again, at the groupthink of the press. There's something you said last week that stayed on my mind a lot, is that liberals in this country, sadly, are those who live the most in the bubble because they're just hearing people

parroting back what they want to hear. There is no reason for people never not to take this a serious look at, did this leak from a lab in Wuhan, China? There is no reason for it. I mean, we want to know what happened. They called that racist when, quite frankly, Chuck, the alternate theory that this came from a Chinese wet market, frankly, lends itself to racism a heck of a lot more than a government screw-up. Absolutely. Well, let's look at this. Let's say this is a murder case.

And you had the Phoenix Police Department. Would the Phoenix Police Department have ignored the possibility of something like this leak from a lab? I mean, if you're an honest detective and you're investigating a murder case, and that's what this is in many ways, you would never ignore that this may have been a possibility. At the end, it may still not be what happened, but honesty and intellectual curiosity would have said,

I'm going to investigate this to rule it out. And, you know, when you go to, for example, the Mayo for treatment of some disease, they don't know what it is. We had a friend recently go in. They just list all of the options on the board and they start eliminating them because they investigate and say, OK, it's not that it's not that the press and most of our medical community did not want to go through that process. And that really is a whole separate investigation. Why?

It's a huge issue. And personally, I think it was Trump. I mean, frankly, we all know they hated him. He rubbed he rubbed intellectuals in particular the exact wrong way, in large part because he pointed out their public policy failures of the last generation. I mean, and so the kickback to him, though, was to ignore Trump.

actual science investigation into what really happened in this and any number of other scenarios. We're still being told that you don't get, you know, you can't get immunity from having had COVID, for instance. That is a complete lie at this point. We have had 15, 16 months of this disease, and there are, out of millions upon millions of cases, a handful worldwide of confirmed reinfections.

That's it. So if you had it, you're immune. How long that lasts, we don't know yet, but it's fairly long lasting because it's been lasting. That was something Trump jumped on. The science community denied it, continues to deny it. I think we'll come to a point where that changes. But over and over, we see these examples of the political science taking over for actual science.

Which is a horrible thing for supposedly a group of people in our country who say just follow the science. And they don't want to follow the science. That's the lie that they're being told. And if you're going to make that statement, then you have to let the cards lay as they may and realize that sometimes what you want it to be

or your hypothesis is wrong if you're really following the science, if you're really following the facts. And our country has got to switch that. And frankly, our medical community has got to get their heads out of their butts on the wokeness of society and just say, I'm following facts. Amen, brother. Broken Potholes, back next week.

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