Brandy Clark: Grammy-Nominated Album Is “Authentically Me”
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In 2020, The New Yorker published an article with the headline, No One is Writing Better Country Songs Than Brandi Clark Is. Those songs have been performed by the likes of Reba McEntire, Miranda Lambert, Kacey Musgraves, Leigh-Anne Rimes, all the biggest artists in country music. And Brandi Clark herself is one of the top songwriters in Nashville, often co-writing with Shane McAnally. But growing up in the state of Washington in a town of just a thousand people,

Brandy Clark's first musical partner was her mother.

You know, I never realized that everybody's mom couldn't play a bunch of instruments. You know, my mom, we always had a piano, and I remember some of my earliest memories of her, she played the harp and the hammered dulcimer. She could just pick up an instrument and learn it. So, you know, if there was a song on the radio that we loved, she could play it. She played by ear really well. And then later on, we were in a band together. And a lot of my first songs I wrote with my mom

I did have a knack for that. And the original songs that our band did, people gravitated towards. And so that was really what got me to move to Nashville.

After making it there as a writer, Clark's first album performing her own material was called 12 Stories, a record that staff writer Emily Nussbaum describes as a masterpiece. Emily is a fan of country music, and she sat down with Brandy Clark to talk about her newest album, which is called, logically enough, Brandy Clark. And it's been nominated for five Grammy Awards. Here's Emily.

So let's talk about your move to Nashville. You moved there when you were 22. Yes. You went to Belmont. What were you thinking about doing professionally at that point, being a songwriter, being in the music industry, being an artist, solo artist? Yes, I definitely wanted to be a solo artist at that point. And what happened to me was like, you know, you move a new place and you make friends. And I started to see that my friends that were getting traction as artists were

They cared way more about, which you wouldn't know this today because I just came from a TV appearance. They cared way more about hair and makeup than I did.

And that seemed to be more of what mattered, you know, was what you looked like. And I cared more about learning to write songs. I wasn't going to go, I wasn't going to skip a writing appointment to go get a spray tan. You know, and friends I had, no offense, we all choose what's important to us. They were into doing that and they were getting traction. They were getting record deals. They were being successful. And so I started to think, maybe I'm not an artist. Like,

Maybe that whole aesthetic thing is so much more important than I ever realized. But I love music so much, and I loved getting better as a songwriter. I loved people—this is going to sound crazy, but it's true—I loved people telling me my songs weren't good enough.

Because it made me want to get better and want to study great songs and learn how to get better. And that's what motivates me, is doing something musically that moves somebody. You know, that just—so that's where I was really motivated. Yeah.

How much did your sexuality play a role in any of your decisions at that time? I know you've talked about yourself as being a late bloomer, but... It definitely played into it, you know, because about the time I moved to Nashville, I did realize that I was gay and I got into my first relationship. And I knew that I didn't think those two things could coexist, which was being in a relationship that was authentic to me and being a country music artist. That played into it massively, I would say. Yeah.

Could you tell me about the environment? Did you get that as advice from people? Did people say, you can't come out and be an artist, you have to do other things? Or was it more in the atmosphere? It was more in the atmosphere because I was a long ways from coming out at that point too. And I also wasn't good enough...

at my craft where anybody would have cared enough to say, don't come out of the closet. You could ruin this. You know, like I wasn't, I wasn't there as an artist for sure. It took me living a little to have something to really say as an artist, but I definitely didn't think that those two things could, could be together. Could coexist. Yeah. How old were you when you met Shane McAnally? He's been a frequent collaborator with you. Shane, I was, um, I was in my thirties. Um,

Man, let me think of exactly how old I was. I'll tell you what, it was an amazing day, the day that I met Shane. And some of it had to do, you know, you mentioned my sexuality. Some of it was that, you know, I saw him and I was out of the closet by then. But I saw him. It's one thing to be an out of the closet lesbian. It's another thing to be an out of the closet gay man.

you know, living and working in country music. And I thought that was so brave. From the moment I met him, he was who he was. And I thought, you know what? I mean, I was living my life out loud. But when I met Shane, I thought, you know what? You're not living it out loud enough. Like, just be who you are. And I remember he said something to me one time. I said, because then I did get the opportunity to make a record and things started to happen. And I said...

Shane, do you think it's going to matter that I'm gay? And he said, nope, you're too good. It won't matter. And that really stuck with me.

That's beautiful. Yeah. Let's talk about your album, Brandy Clark. It's your fourth album. It's the first one that has your name on it in that way. And I know it was originally called Northwest. How did it change to be called Brandy Clark? So it was – I wanted to call it Northwest because Brandy Carlisle, when she approached me about making this record, she said, I see it as your return to the Northwest. Right.

And because we grew up close to each other, didn't know each other, but, you know, same side of the state. And I loved that. I'd never really dove into talking about the Northwest specifically. And so went up, went to the Northwest and wrote a song called Northwest and was like, this is the album title. But every when I would tell people that they would say, well, you know, that's Kim and Kanye's child. Right.

Right. And I had never... Never heard to me. Me neither. And so the first time someone said that, I just thought, oh, you know, they like bad TV, as do I. But when like four out of five people said it, I thought, okay, this is not really a good thing. And no offense to Northwest, the child, but as we started working on the record, it just was so me. It felt so me that I wanted to call it Brandy Clark. Right.

Working with Brandi Carlile did bring me home, not just to the Northwest, but home musically for me. And so it felt like, wow, of the four albums, this one is the most authentically me.

Well, let's play a song from the album, just this absolutely stunning song called Buried. Could you tell me a little bit about it and then we can have you play? Oh, thank you. So Buried, I wrote this with Jessie Jo Dillon. And I think that, you know, we all have somebody that we'll love till we're buried that we're usually not with. So her and I sat down one day and we started it from the top. I had the working title, If You Don't Love Me Anymore.

And all these things that, you know, you're going to do. And that song changed a lot in the studio because Brandy really challenged me to change the second verse. It used to say, I'll read Lonesome Dove, I'll start doing yoga. And she didn't like that yoga line. And I did. And I said, well, you know, why don't you like it? She said, well, because I just don't even believe you do yoga. And I said, well, I don't.

She said, well, then why would you put it in a song? You know, so there were some little things like that that changed. And she said to me, you know, I really I know you're calling this song if you don't love me anymore, but I think you should call it Buried.

It's the last word of the song. It's such a powerful title. It's really what it's about. And so that's how the title changed, some lyric changed. More things changed on that song lyrically than any song I've ever written in the studio. I have to say the Kiss Me on the Dance Floor line, to me, and I don't know whether this is an overread, but that actually does feel a little bit about being with somebody who's not out. I don't know whether— Yeah. For me, that is what that was about. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, wanting to be with somebody who's proud enough to be with you in the open. So let's have you sing the song, The Beautiful Buried. Okay. ♪ I'll fly myself to France ♪ ♪ First class New York to Paris ♪ ♪ Get drunk on wine with someone who ain't in bed ♪ ♪ To kiss me on the dance floor ♪

Yeah, that's what I'll be there for You don't want me You're beyond me You don't love me anymore I'll read lonesome dove Fall asleep to hallelujah I'll take some trippy drug Makes me forget I even knew I'll paint the heart a ceiling blue

Leave me, baby. I got things to do. You don't want me on me. If you don't love me anymore, I'll be an over you achiever. I'll make you a believer that I don't love you either. I'll meet somebody else, probably get mad.

I'll keep it to myself But I'll love you till I'm buried It's unbelievably beautiful. Literally, I have chills running up the back of my neck. And I also find that song so beautiful because it's like a...

a trick ending, but not in a gimmick way. It actually is very, very devastating. But tell me a little bit about the vocal for this, because it's a very quiet, quiet song on it. And the album itself is a quiet album in many ways, other than the first track. So this vocal, you know, I had...

I had been in Salt Lake City working on Shucked before it went to Broadway, and we were... Brandi and I were working at Shangri-La Studios in Malibu, California, and I got a phone call from our producer of our musical, and he asked me if I could step out and talk to him. And so I did, and he told me that we were losing a cast member to another show, and somebody that I felt like the show...

It was in the DNA, and I cried. And when I came back in, Brandy was like, hey, let's do Buried. And I said, oh, you know, I just got some news. It's not terrible, but it's kind of shaking me up. And she's like, no, no, you know, we won't keep your vocal. Like, let's just do it, which was really smart of her. So I was in this very vulnerable, sad place to sing it. And then she had the engineer turn my mic up so hot that I had to whisper sing it.

And that's where all that comes from. Songwriter and performer Brandi Clark talking with the New Yorker's Emily Nussbaum. More in a moment. I'll fly myself to France First class New York to Paris Get drunk on wine Someone who ain't embarrassed To kiss me on the dance floor

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So what choices did you make musically on this album about the sound of it, or did you make mutually with Brandy as a producer? We made choices together, for sure. And she was great for me to work with because I could talk to her like another recording artist. I could say, I want it to feel like this, and it wouldn't necessarily have to be musical language. You know, we wanted it to be live music.

and it is for the most part all live. You know, Brandy had said to me, because I feel like for a long time I've straddled country and Americana, and she said, you know, I think as a producer I can pull you over into more of an Americana vibe on a record, and so that was a conscious choice. So could you tell me what that means? Because I was surprised. This album is nominated, correct, as an Americana album, and...

Tell me from your perspective, what's the difference between country and Americana? Well, and it's just so I'm clear on it. It's nominated across both. Right. It's nominated as best Americana album, but Buried is nominated as best country song and best country vocal. Yes. Yes. Well, you know, I think with Americana, it's more, to me, it means more acoustic music.

instruments, less electric instruments, although there are some electric instruments. And it's kind of dirtier. I mean, there's nothing slick to me about Americana. It's, you know, it's in that can be hard for me because there were things that Brandy and the engineer had

fought me on to keep that were imperfect. Those are, that's tough things for me. Can you give me an example? Well, that, that Barry vocal. Right. You know, that was a really great example. And then when people, what helped me was when people would hear it, they'd be like, don't change a note. You know, I think Americana, the Americana space is less about

Well, it's definitely less about anything that might commercially work on radio, even though I do get Americana radio play. I mean, I kind of just think it's – Americana is good music. And that sounds really vague, but it's a pretty broad genre. You know, it's complicated because I did this whole article about Nashville. I would ask everyone to define the categories, and some people would define them in ways that had very little to do with the music.

They would just say Americana is more diverse. Americana is liberal country. Americana makes less money because it's not connected to country radio. I have heard Americana is country music for Democrats. Yeah. I have heard that, which I really liked that. Yeah.

I want to talk actually about another song on that album that I also love, Tell Her You Don't Love Her. And, you know, I know that that song changed a lot in production as well. Can you tell me a little bit about it? I think that to me, to have a song on a record that's not bashing another woman, that is like literally like, I love my friend and you don't. You need to tell her.

Stop kind of keeping her hanging. Tell her you don't love her Even if it's a lie Make it sound true Break that spell she's under Even if it feels mean Do what you gotta do Don't leave her down Don't break her fall Don't see her out Don't tell her you'll call

Tell her you don't love her if you ever loved her.

And that's, to me also, that came from a really real situation. That was really going on. Yeah, I think it's beautiful and it comes from this interesting emotional angle that's indirect and has this edge of anger in a way that's earned but not directed at a person hurting you. I mean, I've been in love with people that other people had to say to me, look, you're never going to get it together. So I just thought it was, I think it's an important song for that reason.

You know, I'm interested in that experience of being a songwriter. And I think a lot of people listening to this probably don't understand what it's like to be a music or a songwriter. Like, what is the daily experience of that job compared to the job that you're doing now? Well, for me, it never really stopped. You know, like I was always looking for song. I still am always looking for song ideas, but

you've got to go in every day at 10 a.m. with a list of ideas to fire off at somebody else and see what resonates. And it might not be your idea. It might be theirs. If you're writing with an artist,

you're writing for them. And so, you know, that was always a delicate balance of, you know, with my experience, and I even see it in myself as my own artist, artists usually like their ideas. You know, when I look at my albums, most of the titles were my idea because it's what I feel close to. So as a songwriter, you put on your hat to be in service to

to their idea. And sometimes you compromise on things that if they weren't in the room, you wouldn't. We are writing, we're trying to write the best song we can write for the world. If we're sitting there, if we were sitting there with an artist, we're still trying to do that, but we're trying to do it through their lens. And so I think songwriters who are really good at that are really good at staying out of the way.

And I mean that positively. Like, they're really good at pulling the best out of others and helping an artist get their vision out fully. You're behind a bunch of songs that other songwriters did that became classics, including Mama's Broken Heart, Better Dig Too, Follow Your Arrow. Uh-huh.

♪ Kiss lots of girls if that's something you're into ♪ ♪ When it's strange, it's a little too strange ♪ ♪ Love the toy or no ♪ ♪ Just follow your red or red bird ♪ ♪ Follow your arrow wherever it points ♪

Was it ever hard to have somebody else do the song instead of you doing the song? No, not with those three because those are great, three great examples. You know, Follow Your Arrow, Shane and I wrote that with Kacey Musgraves. That was always for Kacey. You know, so we wrote that with her and for her. Mama's Broken Heart. I mean, I love to play that every once in a while. It gets the crowd rowdy, but I never was connected to it.

I don't have any of those stories where it's like, oh, it pains me that this person recorded that song. I also believe songs end up where they're supposed to, especially if they're songs that are hit songs or get some sort of a critical look, you know, like because I have songs that have been recorded that weren't hits but that people know. And it's like, okay, that ended up where it was supposed to be.

Back when you made 12 Stories, what was the psychological adjustment like from being a songwriter for other people to being a front woman? Well, you know, it was a slow one. I feel and I feel like I've just with this record fully made it. You know, that was one of the things that Brandy said to me. She's like, you think of yourself too much as a craftsman.

You know, like even in interviews like this one, I've mentioned other co-writers. And she was like, you've got to stop doing that. She's like, you got to stop talking about me so much, which I'm not going to do. Sorry to tell you, Brandi Carlile. I will always, you know, bang her drum. But she's like, it's about you. You're the artist. And so I think that was a big shift. And this is the first album where I've had so many songs that are really about me.

You know, I no longer write songs thinking, now would Leanne Womack want to say this? You know, I used to always have that voice in my head. I use Leanne Womack because I always wanted her to cut my songs. But I don't feel that. I don't do that anymore. And so that adjustment took some time. Thank you so much for coming by. It was great, and thank you for playing for us. Oh, thank you.

Brandi Clark's new record, her fourth solo album, is called Brandi Clark. And you can read Emily Nospam at newyorker.com. That's our episode for today. We've got one more from Brandi Clark recorded in our studio at One World Trade Center. This one is called Pray to Jesus. Thanks for listening. We live in trailers and apartments too From California to Kalamazoo Grow up, get married

We hate sleeping alone, so we get married again. Don't want to be buried in debt or in sin, so we pray to Jesus and we play the lotto. Cause there ain't but two ways we can change tomorrow, and it ain't no genie, and

Ain't nobody so We prayed to Jesus and we played a lot of We love to complain about what we can't fix Mostly mothers-in-law traffic and politics We tell our kids how hard it was back when Same way our parents did to us back then

♪ Thought we'd be different but we're just like them ♪ ♪ So we pray to Jesus and we play the lotto ♪ ♪ Cause there ain't but two ways we can change tomorrow ♪ ♪ And it ain't no genie and it ain't no bottle ♪ ♪ So we pray to Jesus and we play the lotto ♪

We load our kids up in our new used car. And after church we hit the many. Behind the counter up there on the wall. It reads 200 million on the power. Six little numbers that could change it all. So we prayed Jesus and we played.

the lotto cause there ain't but two ways we can change tomorrow and it ain't no genie and it ain't nobody so we pray to Jesus and we play the lotto like a bumper sticker like a poor man's motto times are tough and I

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