Elissa Slotkin to Fellow-Democrats: “Speak in Plain English”
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This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. When Alyssa Slotkin narrowly won her Senate seat in Michigan last fall, she was one of four Democratic senators to claim victory in states that also voted for President Trump. And it made other Democrats sit up and take some notice. Since then, the party has turned to her as someone who can bridge the red-blue divide.

She delivered the Democratic Party's response to Trump's speech before Congress back in March. And so the party is putting Slotkin front and center. But she's also giving the Democrats a dose of tough love. She thinks that they need to start projecting what she calls alpha energy. She said identity politics needs to go the way of the dodo and that Democrats should drop the word oligarchy from their playbook. Senator Slotkin prides herself on bipartisanship,

She believes that finding a path forward for the Democrats absolutely demands old school collaboration in Congress. For me, as someone who's new to this body, 30 days in this body, I will always seek to work where I can with my colleagues, but not at the expense of the fundamental freedoms and our democracy. That may not be politically palatable back home, but I don't care. Because if we can't do it, what is the point?

What is the point of being senior elected leaders in this body if you don't stand up for the country that you love? There's no king in this country. There's an elected president. Please stand up on behalf of your country. I spoke to Alyssa Slotkin last week. Senator, you won the Michigan Senate seat in a state that voted for Donald Trump. And given your own track record, what do you think those voters saw in both you and the person they voted for for president?

Well, you know, I think the way that I've boiled it down is basically two things. Number one, I focused pretty religiously on economic issues. I mean, the vast majority of my TV ads and my mailers and my digital stuff was about pocketbook issues in one way or another. And I think

there was a question about Democrats in general and what their priorities were and if their priorities were actually like lowering costs. And then the second thing is a little bit more ephemeral. It's harder to grab. And that's just kind of an alpha energy thing, right? I mean, I think people are looking for leadership and to sort of lead through the dark tunnel into the light of a very complicated time in our country's history.

And so they want a little like, you know, a little alpha. And that's not a male-female thing. That's just a like leadership thing. And I obviously have major disagreements with the way Trump leads, but I don't think most people would deny he's got alpha energy.

And for me, especially going into communities, you know, in order to win and represent my state, I got to go into very conservative, very red areas, very Republican areas. My whole strategy is lose better in red areas, right? Go in and meet enough people and surprise enough people that you peel away some of those voters and you lose better, you know, with 41% of the vote instead of 35% of the vote in a certain county or an area, right?

And I think part of that is it's not about your policy papers that you write on your website. It's not about wonky stuff. It's just like, do they get the leadership vibe from you? And I think I had a few more ounces of that than maybe the average Democrat. And it helped me in some of those areas where Democrats kind of lost pretty big. Just to be clear, and not to make a stereotype of anybody's position here,

It's what you're saying that if you stray from issues like high prices, just economic issues, bread and butter issues, that if you start talking about democracy, if you start talking about oligarchy or all the other issues or even corruption when it comes to Donald Trump, that in a place like Michigan, you're going to fail.

Well, I think you have like we can walk and chew gum. Right. Like, I think there is no way I would ever say with what Donald Trump is doing to roll back our democracy that we shouldn't be watching those issues and activated on those issues. We should. I mean, you know, as someone who's been in national service my whole life, like that's what we're trying to do here is preserve our democracy. Right.

But I think if you're only doing that and not speaking to people who are really struggling to pay their bills, you're just having half a conversation. In Michigan in general, if you're not talking about the economy, you are literally having half a conversation. And I've had someone say to me, like, I can't pay for my kid to go to summer camp with democracy.

Right. So it's not that people don't care. They do. But if you're working two jobs and have crappy health insurance, like it's just not the thing that's keeping you up at night. And so I have made this very plain that Democrats can do more than one thing.

But in my part of the world, you got to speak from people's pocketbooks and their kids as a first place. Do you think that Kamala Harris failed to address economic issues? Well, look, I mean, she had what the fast like 100 days. I mean, something very, very short. But I think what ended up happening is people couldn't tell what our priorities were at the at the highest levels. You know, it was like it was.

There were so many priorities that there were no priorities. And, you know, again, I have no love for Donald Trump, but he just really made it an election about your pocketbook. And every yard sign, everything he did was just focused on that. And so people said, well, look, I don't really like everything he has to say, but I want more money in my pocket. I'm going to vote for the person who's going to put more money in my pocket. More than anything, more than immigration even.

For sure. Yeah. I mean, I, that to me, yes, of course, immigration is an issue that, that polarizes a lot of people, activates a lot of people. Um,

But even, you know, if you look back, the way that Trump and Vance were talking about immigration was also as an economic issue. Right. Vance made this false claim that immigration was why housing was so expensive. In Springfield, Ohio, and in communities all across this country, you've got schools that are overwhelmed. You've got hospitals that are overwhelmed. You have got housing that is totally unaffordable because we brought in millions of illegal immigrants to compete with Americans for scarce homes.

You couldn't get a house that you could afford because of immigration. It's a false story. But they were turning immigration into an economic issue because that was the lead foot, certainly at the end. Senator, a number of your colleagues have come on our show recently. Cory Booker, Chris Murphy, John Fetterman.

very different Democrats in temperament and sometimes ideology. And they've said, and they've spoken to the subject of what the Democrats have gotten wrong, both immediately and recently in the recent years. I'd like to hear from you what you think the Democrats should be doing right. You said they need, quote, as you said in more expurgated terms here, the goddamn alpha energy of Detroit Lions coach Dan Campbell. So explain to us

non-NFL fans what this means and what it means more generally. Sure. Well, I mean, you know, look, I think it's

to be honest, that kind of coach persona is exactly what I'm talking about, Dan or otherwise. You got to play defense with muscle. So right now, Lord knows, with Trump having the House, the Senate, and the White House, we should be playing a more muscular defense. We should be organized and standing up in a more deliberate and forceful way, more strategic way, right? We should be separating like...

I'm sorry, the issues of Greenland are not where we need to be losing our minds. We need to be focusing on the things, again, that are deeply affecting our economic security, our national security, and our democracy. So we should be playing much more robust defense, but then we should be playing offense. You got to offer something to beat the other guy.

Right. And for me, I think, you know, I've been toying with this idea of giving a talk sometime later this month that just called slaughtering sacred cows. Right. That we as Democrats need to also realize that while certainly people who voted for Donald Trump wanted change from their government, that actually a lot of people don't think the government is working for them.

a lot of them want government to change. It's just, we have a 20th century government and it's the 21st century. So what sacred cows would you slaughter? Yeah. So for example, to me, I think we need to be honest that while many regulations are done from goodness, right? We want to protect our environment. We want to protect public health. When you overlap

20 different regulations so that it becomes impossible to get a permit to build a manufacturing site for 15 years. Right. Like the, then we've lost the forest for the trees. Right. So I am a hundred percent willing to have a real conversation about peeling back regulation. I don't want to hurt the environment or all these other things that we care about, but like my farmers, uh,

They've been like responsible, good actors for 25 years, right? They get evaluated on how they climb ladders. I'm like, what do you do it ass backwards? Like how do you go up a ladder? Right.

What I'm seeing is we have overregulated to the point of not being able to get our dollars out. And look, I think about this for things that are very much like important democratic agenda items that we've gotten in our own way by making so many rules and regulations that you can't actually move quickly and show that democracy and government can work.

So regulation or over-regulation is one sacred cow that needs slaughtering, in your view. What other sacred cows should be brought to the butcher? So let's take one that's fundamental to who we are as Americans, immigration.

Right. Everyone knows our immigration policy is broken. Is there a single person in this country who thinks our immigration system is working? Right. It's not working for the immigrants. It's not working for employers. It's not working for, you know, the economy. We need more actually immigrants in order for our economy to be completely unleashed.

We need a legal vetted way to get people in. For years, people have been talking about comprehensive immigration reform, right? That we can't do a deal, Democrats and Republicans, unless we get everything. And in fairness, there was a bill that was sunk by the Republican Party. Totally.

I mean, 100 percent. Right. Everybody, everybody has blame to go around. Right. On this issue. My thing is like, you know what? It's so broken. I'll take incremental immigration reform. I will take I don't have to make it all work out in a perfect plan. I will just double the caps of every legal visa category today.

And I'll work with anybody who's willing to do that because we need more legal vetted immigrants coming here, working here, building their lives here. And to me, like that's that is controversial. I'm going to get some emails about that statement. OK, right. But I think we need to be willing to say that not everything can be perfect in this world. I'll take some change rather than no change and waiting for the perfect to be the enemy, the good.

I'm speaking with freshman Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour with more to come. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

On Radiolab, in the beginning, the universe was silent. This changes 270 million years ago, when an insect scrapes one ornamented wing over another. What happens when a voice emerges, and when another is lost? Maybe I never thought of my old voice as something I could lose, because I could never sing in the first place. Can something be gained? Surprise plastered their faces when they saw who held the mic. The first known earthly voice from Radiolab.

Listen wherever you get podcasts. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I've been speaking today with Senator Alyssa Slotkin, a Democrat of Michigan. Now, the word oligarchy describes the concentration of political power by the ultra wealthy. Many Democrats these days are using the term to critique how Donald Trump has transformed Washington, not to mention the influence of Elon Musk. But Alyssa Slotkin has taken issue with the term. We'll continue our conversation now.

Senator, your fellow Democrats, Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, are now on a national tour called the Fighting Oligarchy Tour. And it's drawing big crowds in the tens of thousands. And you have said at the same time that Democrats ought to stop using the word oligarchy. Why? What's your difference, either in style or opinion, with that? Yeah, it was literally just the word. My dad asked me what it meant. And then a bunch of other people asked me what it meant.

Ask me what it meant. That's it. It's just a word. Like, just say we have no king or whatever you want to say. But I think actually it says a lot more about the state of the Democratic Party that we are arguing about a word. But just to not to put too fine a point on it, but oligarchy means something other than not just having a king. It means not elevating power.

Elon Musk or other billionaires to a degree of such power that they're interacting with government in a way that leaves the rest of us

relatively impoverished by comparison. And I'm in full support. Like, good energy at the rallies. As I said, the base, like... So it's the word. It's literally a word. Right. I mean, I know, like, the media likes to, you know, get seams between Democrats. It's the word. And that...

people were asking me what it meant. And so can we just reframe the like, just say what you said. Bernie Sanders responded to your criticism recently on NBC saying that you think the American people are dumb. I think the American people are not quite as dumb as Ms. Larkin thinks they are. I think they understand very well when the top 1% owns more wealth than the bottom 90%.

When big money interests are able to control both political parties, they are living in an oligarchy. What's your response to him?

You know, I think that as someone who just won on the same ballot with Donald Trump, as someone who represents a very independently minded swing state, as someone whose dad asked her what the word mean, I don't think people are dumb. I just think the Democratic Party can speak in plain English and be more effective. Fair enough. Now, you were in Iraq.

for the CIA. And just days ago, the Trump administration decided on some big cuts at the agency, around 1,200 people. What do you think of that? I think in general, I agree with this premise that we need to change the government. And I worked in the government my entire life, right? I ran a big office at the Pentagon. If you had said to me, hey, we got to take an 8% cut,

I know exactly where I'd cut, right? This idea that there's no fat on the bone is not accurate. And I'm sorry, it's just not true. But what I cannot subscribe to is the completely reckless way they're going about this. I mean, absurd things like sticking, you know, everyone's job name into an AI, you know, powered device.

you know, algorithm and, you know, cutting out anyone who had the word diversity, including like energy diversity or something, you know what I mean? Stupid stuff like that. But then stuff that literally keeps people safe every day, right? People who are testing water, people who are looking at national threats. So we need responsible change, not reckless change. And what this guy's firing people on a Friday, including my own family members, and then rehiring them three weeks later because you made a mistake. Any CEO in America would be fired for that.

And they're just being sloppy about it. Tell me about your family members who was fired.

My stepbrother was fired. He just had started after 25 years working in his state. He had just taken a new job as a supervisor at a federal agency. And so because he was like last in and had not even been there for a year, they fired him. And then he started looking for another job. He was talking to people, you know, he'd been in that business many years. And then three weeks later, they gave him full back pay and brought him back.

And it was only out of his dedication to the people who were working for him that he walked back into that place. But like, come on, no company in America runs that way. That is just sloppy and completely a strategic. And that's what he's doing across the government, including on positions that protect people from harm. Do you view Donald Trump as a boon to or a threat to national security?

I mean, I think that many of his policies make us extremely vulnerable to threats coming from abroad and then internal threats. And I think, honestly... Explain that specifically, if you don't mind. Sure. I mean, I think...

He sort of made a hobby out of kicking our allies in the teeth and cozying up to our adversaries, right? I mean, I think... So he's gone hostile against people who we actually work with every single day in the intelligence community. We share threat information. We tell each other...

about a terrorist plot that's underway in each other's countries, like people we work with every single day. You're talking about the Europeans, the Canadians, Australians. I mean, but not just our English-speaking cousins, lots of other countries, right? I mean, if there is a, I've seen in my time, countries flagged for us that there's a terrorist threat that starts in the Middle East, but is going through servers in Europe,

that's targeting stuff in the United States. And because we're allies, they flag for our law enforcement and our intelligence community, this is going on. And we work with them to shut it down, right? Every single day, I can give you stories about how in a globalized world, we need friends to keep ourselves safe. So can you be specific about the way that's changed since January 20th? Well,

Well, first of all, I think that because he's cozying up to adversaries, because information has been leaked, right? Intelligence has been leaked because it's unclear what the Trump administration's kind of relationship is with the Russians, for instance. I think I know that there are countries who are hesitant to

to be as open-armed about their sharing as they were in previous years under Democrat and Republican administration. So there's definitely, I think, a concern. At what point do you think that at least some, at least some of the constituents that voted for both you and Donald Trump will say, you know what? I have lost faith in Donald Trump. I feel betrayed by Donald Trump. Donald Trump is

maybe didn't mean what he said when he said he was going to make life better for me. Instead, he's made life better for what Bernie Sanders would call millionaires and billionaires. I think there's some people who have already started in the privacy of their own homes to think about that. I think there are diehards who are going to be with him because they think that he's Wizard of Oz behind the curtain and there's some grand plan.

What was interesting to me was actually a couple of weeks ago, I was pumping gas at a gas station and the truck next to me had like a Trump sticker on it. And the guys pumping gas next to me were like, you know, throwing trash in the trash can and everything. And

And they said, oh, we recognize you and, you know, we know who you are and everything. And they were still definitely pro-Trump guys. And I, you know, it's Michigan. So we get along. It's still very cordial and respectful. And we kind of ended the conversation. I'm still pumping my gas. They came back around.

And one of them said, you know, I will say I voted for more money in my pocket, not this yo-yo shit on tariffs. Right. And and that to me, again, if there's an election tomorrow, does that guy continue to vote for Trump? Maybe. But they're they're voicing to a Democrat at a gas station. But wait a minute. Why is he still going to vote for Trump if it if it doesn't help him economically? What you're saying is the singular topic.

The singular issue for those voters, what makes those voters continue to support Donald Trump if they're feeling betrayed in the most important way? They would say it's too soon to tell, right? Like they would say, like, I still think that there's a grace period, right? And a lot of my guys who are union members will tell me, like, there's a grand plan.

And so you can't figure out a grand plan, Alyssa, in 100 days, they would say to me, right? So I think that we're in this wait and see kind of period. And he's going to have to own his policies. And by the way, Democrats are going to have to make him own his policies. This is what I'm talking about, about having a stronger defense, you know, as well as an offense. Like,

We need to show people what the Trump administration is doing and make it real to them. And we can't speak in percentages and we can't speak in talking points. One of the areas where you've been very critical of the Democratic Party in general is identity politics. You said that identity politics needs to go the way of the dodo. You said that on NBC. Tell me more about that. What do you mean precisely about that? Again, this is about priorities. If people hear us talking about politics,

identity issues 80% of our time and the economy 20% of the time.

That's just not where the public is in a state like mine. That's just not. It's not that people don't have sympathy, right? I grew up in a gay home. My mom came out in suburban Detroit in 1986. We hit it. I got all the way through high school without anyone knowing, right? It was a different time. So you're not going to find someone who feels more strongly about gay rights and about, you know, she died before gay marriage was legal. And I went through

you know, the pain of like having to the hospital, having to allow her partner to make decisions, even though they weren't legally married. Right. So that that's, it's not that those aren't important issues. It's just when you are trying to speak to people, you need to speak to the, their broadest sense of needs and,

And that they need to understand that your priorities are their priorities. And so that is what I mean is like when you lead with the identity politics, it's sort of like you're missing what 80% of at least my people are talking about. You said that Pete Hegseth, Secretary of Defense, should man up and resign. Pete Hegseth went before a Senate committee yesterday.

And some of the Republicans, Joni Ernst being one of them, knew pretty darn well about the level of, I don't know, foolishness, all the flaws that we know only too well, and yet voted for him. And this carried through with any number of other appointees. This is an administration dominated by people who are above all obedient. Obedient. That's the quality they seem to share most of all.

How do you talk to your Republican colleagues about that, especially since you're a great believer in bipartisanship? Yeah. Well, look, even I just finished a hearing for some—

uh, department of defense nominees. And I was in the elevator with a Republican colleague who had gone before me. And I said, you know, I disagree with pretty much everything you said in your question. Um, and you know, that what he's saying is BS, like, you know, right. And, and it's sort of a, eh, eh, eh, like a tap dance.

And then, frankly, for some of them, like, look, I want a seat at the table. It's literally what one of them told me. Why? Why is it so great to have a seat at a table that you don't believe in? You're really going to have to ask them. I think, look, I remember a moment early in my tenure as an elected representative, 2019, right? I had just gotten elected in 2018 representing a Trump voting district.

And the minute I get to Congress, everyone's talking about impeaching Trump, impeaching Trump. I knew that if I said, okay, yes, let's go and impeach Trump, I was going to be a one-term congresswoman, right? I understood that. And so there'd be a push, a push, and like a number of us would sort of push back in

In the fall of 2019, that's when we first got reporting that the president had told Zelensky, unless you give me dirt on Joe Biden, I'm going to stop your weapons, you know, and helping you and supporting you. And for me and a number of others, it just was beyond the pale. And I had to sort of say to myself over the course of a weekend, like, yeah, I'll probably lose my next election, but I have to be able to look myself in the mirror in my life.

And so, you know, we wrote an op-ed, a group of us, we're all service and veteran folks saying, you know what? We may lose our seats, but we got, this is just beyond the pill. And we did it. And I did these town halls. I had 500 people at a time heckling me and screaming at me and very, very unhappy. But it was the best lesson I could ever learn as a new elected official. Like risk your job in your first year, because number one,

You're liberated, right? You can do what you need to do, what you think is right. Number two, actually, I had people coming up to me, a lot of Trump voters who would say to me, excuse my French, and like in the airport, they'd be like, look, I don't really like you. I don't really like your party, but I saw you did that. You did those town halls and like that took balls. And like, it was like, you know, some respect for risking your job, which is just a thing that's not done a lot in politics. So you're going to have to talk to them

But I will just say, again, history is not going to judge those folks well who knew better but protected him. Senator Slotkin, I know you have a vote and I will leave you to it. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Appreciate being here. Melissa Slotkin was elected to the Senate from Michigan in 2024. And before that, she served in Congress from a district around Lansing.

I'm David Remnick. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. I want to send congratulations to all our staff members for three Pulitzer Prizes this year: Mossab Abutoa, Moises Simon, and the staff of In the Dark. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of TuneArts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer. With guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Decken. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

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