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cover of episode Israel on the Brink: Understanding the Judicial Overhaul, and the Protests Against It

Israel on the Brink: Understanding the Judicial Overhaul, and the Protests Against It

2023/4/7
logo of podcast The New Yorker Radio Hour

The New Yorker Radio Hour

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A
Avishai Margalit
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David Remnick
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Ruth Margalit
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David Remnick:以色列正面临着成为类似匈牙利或波兰的专制国家的风险,其司法改革实际上是对民主的挑战。内塔尼亚胡政府的胜利使得他们过于自信地推行司法改革,而这项改革实际上是推翻现有权力制衡,削弱最高法院权力,使政府可以为所欲为。 Ruth Margalit:以色列的抗议活动持续时间长,参与者范围广,最初主要集中在特拉维夫,后来扩展到全国各地,包括一些犹太定居点。抗议活动领导者试图淡化巴勒斯坦旗帜,以争取更广泛的支持,因为当前最广泛的共识是捍卫民主。内塔尼亚胡转向民粹主义的趋势在他被起诉之前就已经开始,但起诉后,他为了自保而推行司法改革,导致了全国动荡。以色列的司法改革与匈牙利和波兰的类似举动有相似之处,这些国家都曾经历过政府冻结立法然后迅速通过的事件。内塔尼亚胡对内阁的控制力减弱,这表明他整体上失去了控制力。许多以色列人正在考虑离开以色列,前往其他国家,但最近的抗议活动也让一些人决定留下并为之奋斗。尽管以色列面临挑战,但作者本人仍选择留在以色列,并认为值得为其奋斗。 Avishai Margalit:以色列政治的新因素是宗教和民族主义的强力融合,这使得宗教对公共领域施加影响。现政府完全依赖宗教和极端宗教人士的选票,而过去反犹太复国主义的极端正统派现在却变成了民族主义者,甚至沙文主义者。以色列的社会分裂是阶级、种族和文化三重因素造成的,可以理解为全球化以色列和非全球化以色列之间的冲突。以色列社会冲突的激烈程度源于种族因素、阶级因素和阶级怨恨的重叠。内塔尼亚胡在被起诉前后行为截然不同,起诉后他采取了类似特朗普的方式,试图破坏以色列法律体系以自保。以色列在1967年前边界内的法律与被占领土的法律不同,这本身就是一个关于民主的辩论,而当前的民主斗争是关于绿线内的民主问题。以色列工党影响力下降的原因是其制度性力量的丧失和社会民主运动的普遍衰落。以色列的未来取决于民主能否成功抵御错误方向的转变,以及与巴勒斯坦能否找到可行的解决方案。

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The judicial reform proposed by Netanyahu's government aims to limit the power of the Supreme Court, making it subservient to the legislature. This move is seen as a threat to democracy and has sparked massive protests across Israel.

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Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s proposed law changing the judiciary is described as a reform. To opponents, it’s a move to gut the independence of the Supreme Court as a check on executive power—and a move from the playbook of autocrats like Hungary’s Viktor Orbán. The protests that followed are the largest in the country’s history, and are now stretching into their third month. Ruth Margalit, who is based in Tel Aviv, covered) the protests for The New Yorker, and she tells David Remnick that the strength and success of the protests so far has brought a sense of hope for many who were losing faith in the country’s political future. “I think there is a sign of optimism. There is this potential for a kind of political realignment,” she says. “I do have some friends who were thinking of leaving and suddenly are saying, ‘Well, let’s just see how this plays out.’ And they suddenly feel that they have a role.” Remnick also speaks with Margalit’s father, the political philosopher Avishai Margalit, about demographic and cultural factors driving Israeli politics. The nation has been moving to the right probably since the failure of the Oslo peace accords in the nineteen-nineties, but “the new element,” Avishai thinks, “is the strong fusion of religion and nationalism,” elements that were once kept separate in Israel. “The current government is utterly dependent on the votes of the religious and the ultra-religious,” he says. The big unknown, Ruth says, is whether the popular uprising will expand beyond the judicial reforms. “Let’s say the fight over democracy is won—what happens then?” she says. “Can we branch out this fight over democracy? Can it include the West Bank and bring an end to the occupation?”