God’s Word Is a Lantern w/ Jennifer Lucy Tyler
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If your thoughts are fuel and your car is your faith and you are behind the driver's seat and you're saying to yourself, I really feel like I should leave this relationship. I just don't have what it takes. You believe you should stay, kind of. Do you believe that he's worth it? True freedom in Christ is just going forth without allowing the outside voices to deter you anyway. For me, I just want to be free and

and living out that calling and just serving Him. That's it.

We are finally back with the woman evolved podcast. I am your girl Sarah jakes roberts coming to you fresh face You can't see me though. Could you listen on the podcast? But listen, I am checking in with you I told you it'd been a minute. It would be a minute since we got to catch up So I had to do a few pre recordings, but I am actually recording this like it's recent their current events There are things happening in the world and so um

I want to first start off by acknowledging that if you're not watching the news, if you're not in the know, then you may be missing out on what is the most

chaotic times in our modern day history. And with the raids that are taking place, I lived in Los Angeles for almost 10 years. So I'm saying LA, but I know that they're happening everywhere. Protests and also the war between Israel and Iran, the

And not to mention the ongoing war in Palestine impacting those who are in Gaza and the West Bank and something popped off in Nigeria. There's just so much going on in the world. And in times like this, it can be challenging to figure out what is my response. Sometimes the overwhelming nature of hearing so many difficult things can leave us feeling

stagnant, numb, stuck, and unsure of what really matters and what doesn't anymore. And so I want to remind you in the midst of ingesting all of the news to take a minute and process it, to grieve it, to allow yourself to feel fear, worry, doubt, anger, frustration, and

to recognize that there is a real evil in this world. And I think sometimes we are always asking God, like, how could you let this happen? How could you let that happen? And I think that we are so busy questioning God that we don't attack the enemy. We're so busy questioning God that we don't wage war against the principalities and powers that drive evil forces. And part of that is through our spiritual warfare, right?

for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but they are mighty through God for the pulling down of strongholds. And when we talk about those strongholds, I know for me and my own growth and development, I've thought about these strongholds as my own fortified arguments. If you look at that word, that's what it means. A stronghold is an argument in the mind, but those strongholds

that existed within my own mind that limited my self-concepts, my self-awareness that didn't, that kept me from aligning with who God says that I am. But I think that as we zoom out of the picture, as we see a generation becoming more reconciled in their being, that we have an opportunity to pull down the strongholds in other people's minds, that God would give us wisdom and strategy not to attack others,

iron for iron, right? Not to attack from a carnal standpoint, but how can we begin to change the mentalities and mindsets of the people who are producing these evil outcomes? And so everyone's playing their own part

and pulling down strongholds. For some of us, it's in our cities and communities. They are in our families and we're pulling down strongholds. And that way, many of us are positioned strategically within governments and militaries and institutions and industries and corporate spaces where we have an opportunity to change the mentalities of what happens that produces evil, that forces us to turn a blind eye to what's happening in the world.

And so my prayer is that you feel the feels, that you navigate your emotions and responses to what's taking place in the world. And then that you remember that we have a responsibility to stay on the front line in whatever our situation.

And whatever our positioning is. And so those of you who are educators forming the minds of our future leaders, for those of you who are at home, for those of you who are students pursuing academia and medical fields, all of us.

have a role to play in changing what's happening in the world. And no one's role is too small to excuse us from taking place in what's happening. We have an opportunity to change the tide. And so I've been thinking about ways that I can be more intentional about using my voice, my influence that God has given me as a gift to reflect God's glory and goodness in the earth. And I

Boy, man, we had an incredible opportunity. As you all know, if you've been listening to the podcast, we had an opportunity to go to Ghana. And Ghana was impactful in ways that I didn't even imagine it would be. We were blessed to take our youngest children with us, Ella and Mackenzie. And the moment Ella got off the plane, we weren't there for very long. She's like, there are black people everywhere. And I was like,

Yes, mama. Welcome to the continent. Welcome to the country of Ghana in which this is going to be one of those spaces where you may not feel like another. You may actually feel quite at home. And

What I love so much about our trip is though we had an opportunity to engage in the development of the region by learning about what development looks like. We were able to attend some conferences to understand what does growth, what does the leadership see as possible for the country. But we also got to go to some orphanages and we got to see some of the villages. But then most impactful was going to the slave dungeons

And if you ever hear about these, you may hear people call them slave castles, but our tour guide was very intentional about calling them slave dungeons because there was nothing fairytale-esque about what was taking place in these castles. And so touring that was incredibly emotional, being able to take our daughters with us

I just, man, when we were walking through the dungeons, we saw where they held the women. We saw where they would be chained, where the king would come out or the general colonel would come out and choose which one of the slaves he wanted to abuse. You could still smell the aroma of fear and fear.

human feces and blood and pain in the dungeons 400 years later, over 400 years later, you can still smell it. And then as we were walking to what they call the door of no return, which is where the individuals who were enslaved would take this journey to this door where they would climb a ladder onto the slave ships and

And when we got to that door, you go through this dark tunnel. And as we were going through this dark tunnel, my nine-year-old grabbed my hand. She said, mommy, I'm scared. And we're there with flashlights and cars. Like we're definitely walking out of here. And I can only imagine how painful it was for those who had no idea what was on the other side of walking through this door who had left their families behind. And it was just, I can...

I can feel a way even talking about it. And so we toured it. He gave us some explanation about what that process was like for them. And then, you know, he kind of turned to take us to the next portion and we were like, Hey, we need a minute. And all I could think about in my head is how, you know,

more than likely people were thinking to themselves, man, I hope I can come back. I hope I can come back. I don't want to go. I wish I could stay. I want to come back. And then maybe they got to wherever their destination was and they thought to themselves, you know, one day I'm going to get back. One day I'm going to get back. And maybe as that

thought slipped through their hands. They had children and they thought, well, maybe one day my kids will get back. Maybe one day my kids will get back. And here we are generations upon generations upon generations later, and a piece of them has returned home. There's literally no reason why my black self should be anywhere in America. So I know that my ancestors came from this door in some way. And here we are today.

you know, back hundreds of years later. It's so emotional. I believe that every person, not just every person of color, I think every person should experience, you know, this opportunity to go and walk this path and this journey.

And I think it's reconciling. I always used to, I grew up in predominantly white schools. And whenever they were talking about slavery, I'd feel like a sense of shame and embarrassment because I was one of the only black people in the classroom. And there was something about seeing those dungeons and seeing what

Our ancestors went through that made me recognize that, like, I don't have anything to be embarrassed about. I don't have anything to be ashamed of. If anything, you know, this is something that other people should have to reconcile and see and witness so that we do not bear the chance of repeating it. And so...

And if you're ever granted the opportunity, I think it's worth you definitely having a chance to experience that. It was so funny, my nine-year-old, you know, she was there and she's listening, but she's not as vocal as my 15-year-old is. And so when the night was finished, we go back to our hotel where there's a swimming pool and she's swimming and eating french fries. And she cuddles up in my nap after she's had a bath and she goes, Mommy, I'm going to go to the hotel.

white people did us dirty. And I was like, Ella, I see how you got there, but I just want you to know that it wasn't all white people and that there were white people who were part of making a difference as well because I want to balance that out a little bit. But I think that this is why so many people are afraid of us revisiting

these truths about our history is that they're afraid that the truth will follow them into the present. And yet we need the truth to follow us into the present so that we're constantly looking at the capacity of human depravity and our commitment to not repeating it is strengthened because we keep it so close to us. There's a scripture. Hold on, let me look it up. Um,

Oh, okay. Yes. Okay. Psalms 51 and 3. A period is where I acknowledge my transgressions and my sin is ever before me. And I don't know. I'm thinking about that in the context of David who wrote this in Psalm 51 and 3. And there's something about your sin being in front of you that you don't become so...

by who you aren't anymore, that you forget who you once were and the grace of God, the power of God to change and transform you. So that's that on that. I told you I would fill you in on the trip. And let me see beyond that. Oh, I'm going on vacation. Praise the Lord. Oh my goodness. In about two weeks,

We will be installed as the senior pastors of the Potter's House Dallas, and we're taking a minute to get away, to shore up our marriage, to pray, to rest, to receive vision before stepping into this call. So you all pray for me. Follow me as I follow Christ.

Pray for me as we say yes to this assignment and yes to what God has for us and our family in this season. So I'm actually recording this before I get on the plane. So y'all pray for me. And OK, so you have mind in my business. Let me get ready to mind yours. Hi, Pastor Sarah. My name is Kay and I'm going through a.

And I'm young. I keep telling myself, you know, this is your first time living. Give yourself grace. But I am like physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually breaking myself apart. Like literally sitting in the car crying. And, you know, you hear the, you have to leave. You just have to leave. You have to leave. And it's like...

I tried. I always come back. I just like my power is gone. And I know he lives in me. I'm the image of him. And I just like I don't feel it when it comes to this man. And I know it sounds crazy, but I feel so tired. Like I can't leave. I always want to be in communication with him. Like he's hurt me.

a few times and I just have not found the power to walk away from the situation. And I try to create these boundaries that he does not respect. And it's just like, when will you love yourself a little bit more than you have been? And it hurts. It hurts every day to think that I know better. I didn't do better, like Eve, like you say, but it's just like...

It's breaking me apart. My heart feels so heavy in moments and I really want to leave, but I just feel like I'm going through like a spiritual warfare. So I just ask that you mind my business and kind of just give me some advice on what to do, what to read, what to remember, what God said about me. Because it's hard. Like I said, I'm young. This is new.

It's toxic. I don't want to be in this no more. And yes, I just appreciate you. I love you so much. Thank you for everything. You know, you pulled me out of so many dark tunnels in my life. I definitely appreciate you and look forward to hearing it. Thank you. I want to thank you for trusting me with this question about leaving a toxic relationship.

I am asked this question a lot and, you know, I have a few thoughts about it. I remember being out with someone once and I think I've told this story before and she was in a similar situation and my husband was talking to her and he was like, you know, trying to tell her, you know, about her worth and her value and, you know, what God says and what's on the other side of it and all of these things. And, you know, I was like,

And I was just sitting there because I'll mind your business. Okay. I was just in her mind and my business. And then he turned to me and he's kind of like, what do you think? And I go, oh, I think she should stay until leaving is the only option. Like it was the most to the point.

advice ever because I know what it's like to be in a situation where you know in your mind you should leave a situation because it's not good for you. But just because you know something in your mind, it doesn't mean that it's easy for you to put into action. There has to be a real...

covenant to your future, to your health, to your growth, to whatever's on the other side of the breakup to get you out of your comfort and for you to be willing to risk the vulnerability, the heartbreak, the pain, the disappointment, the discouragement that comes with leaving a toxic relationship.

People don't stay in a toxic relationship because they think it's healthy. There's a lot of potential. There's a lot of time investment. You're trying to prove people wrong. There's some pride connected to it, some ego. There's a lot of reasons why people stay. And so I would say one,

as it relates to practical tools for helping you to get to a space where you're really ready to walk out of this relationship. One, I just want you to know that the power of the Holy Spirit is real. What you cannot do in your own strength, you can say, God, please,

give me your Holy Spirit. Let the Holy Spirit meet me to guide me, lead me, comfort me, and give me the power, the ability to leave this relationship. Power, that word power that we see translated in the New Testament literally is translated into ability. When the woman with the issue of blood touched the hem of Jesus' garment, he said, I felt

power pull out of me. That word power was ability. You took my ability away from me. And because you took God's ability, what you couldn't do in your own ability, you can do in God's ability. The power of the Holy Spirit wants to give you the ability to do the things that you cannot do in your own strength. So one, start praying for power to leave. The other thing I will say is this, that you have to recognize this is an analogy that

that I hope makes sense. It makes sense in my head. It may not make sense when I say it to you, but here it is. Are you ready? Here we go. Here we go. Your thoughts are fuel. If you think about yourself as a car, your thoughts are fuel, okay? And your faith is the vehicle. So your thoughts are fuel for your beliefs, okay?

But your direction of your beliefs all comes down to who's in the driver's seat, what's driving you, what's moving you. And if you are in the driver's seat of what you believe, I need you to ask yourself as it relates to you in this toxic relationship, what is it that you believe?

What is it that you believe that keeps driving you in the direction of this toxic relationship? What thoughts are connected to you believing that you can't leave, that you need to stay? I wish I could say this better because it really made sense in my head. But if your thoughts are fuel and your car is your faith and you are behind the driver's seat and you're saying to yourself, I really feel like I should leave this relationship. I just don't have what it takes.

I would attack not your beliefs, but rather your thoughts. So you believe you should stay kind of, but you also believe something else. Do you believe that he's worth it? Do you believe that there's a chance that he could change? Do you believe that in some way you don't deserve better?

What thoughts are connected to you staying? Because our belief is neutral and people are always like, I'm a believer. I'm a believer. Yeah, you may believe in Jesus, but all of us are believers in some way, whether we're believing in our doubt, we're believing in our shame, we're believing in our fear. Choosing to believe in Jesus is a choice, but having belief is not a choice. You believe in something, whether you have identified that belief or not. And so my question is to you,

What do you believe? What belief is fueling you staying in this relationship with this person? And if I go back and I think about, I really didn't think that I deserved better. And I thought that he would change.

And I believe that I could be good enough, that I could create a life that was sweet enough to make that person change and be different. And I really believe that, that one day he would see me, one day it would be worth it. And until I stopped believing

believing that I didn't have what it took to leave. So I stayed until my belief changed. And I believe that you're going to stay until your belief changes. You can say, I know I deserve better. I know I believe what God says about me, but like until you for real, for real believe it, you know, you're going to stay. I remember walking out of the CPS office, Child Protective Services, after I had split my wig and was about to split somebody else's and they called the police on me.

And there was one thing that changed my life and that thought, right? Because our thoughts fuel what we believe. My thought was, I can do better than this. I think I can do better than this. And when I started believing that I could do better than this, I had what I needed to start moving my destiny into a different direction. I really hope that that car analogy made sense because I think it could be really dope if you can start dissecting the thoughts that are fueling the belief

that has allowed you to move your life in this direction. But just in case it doesn't, what I know for sure is the power of the Holy Spirit can meet you and can help you to confront some of the strongholds, which literally was just talking about some of the strongholds that have kept you in this fortified argument. So those are my words to you. And let me tell you something, babe, don't feel no shame.

Every girl I know, and I know a lot of them, have found themselves in situations where they knew better but didn't do better. So no condemnation, just conviction. And when the conviction of the Holy Spirit falls on your heart, falls on your life, and you begin to make better decisions, I just don't want you to have any shame for how long you stayed or what you did to get him to stay or what you did in an effort to try and be open and free. And look, I'm easy. Look,

Being with me is easy. I don't demand anything from you. It's so easy. And some of us have put ourselves on clearance trying to make sure that people feel so much ease in being with us that we lowered the bar. We put ourselves on clearance so that it could be easy for someone else while it was devastating for us. But guess what? It may be hard to be with you and it needs to be hard to be with you because it has been hard to be you. And you don't want to just put yourself on clearance for somebody who don't get it. Okay, the girls who get it, get it. The girls who don't, don't. And the fellas who get it, get it. And the fellas who don't.

don't. Okay. Period. Pray, pray to make it through the day and to get out of this relationship. And my heart is with you and I love you. And I believe that I believe that you deserve better. I believe that you're at a space in your life where you can't afford to waste any more of your goodness with someone who doesn't know how to treasure it. I believe that

that God's going to cause even this time spent in this relationship to work together for your good. I believe that there's wholeness on the other side of this. I believe that there's restoration that awaits you. I believe what God says about you, that you are fearfully and wonderfully made. I believe

that none of these weapons, not even the weapons you have formed against you are going to prosper. I believe that when you finally put down the pen and paper, if you're trying to write your own story, that God will illuminate a path for you that is so undeniably holy that you strive to match its holiness. I believe that you're going to look back on this and say, I was tripping and that's all right because now God's ordering my steps and I won't fall.

That's what I believe for you. Listen, I don't know if you have ever heard one of those talks that just hits different. Not just, oh, that was good, but that's exactly what I didn't know I needed. That's what this episode is giving. I sat down with my girl, Jennifer Lucy Tyler, and I use my girl kind of loosely because I pretty much just stalk her on social media as I do with most people and most things, but I feel so connected to her journey. We talked about all of the things that

new mom life, losing yourself and finding your footing again, walking in purpose while holding a baby on your hip and how studying the word of God can change how you see everything, even yourself. After we had this conversation, I was like, let me rearrange the schedule so we can get her at We25 because I want to do a Bible study at We25 that helps the girls understand how to study the Bible in their own way, in their own time so that they can build their relationship with God

It was honest. It was healing. It was funny. It was faith-filled and it was real. So grab your tea, take your bra off if you need to, get comfortable and get ready to feel seen, hugged and encouraged. Let's get into this combo sis. You're going to love it. New hair, who dis? That's like, are you feeling yourself? How are you enjoying your first sewing in a long time? I am enjoying it because who has time to do hair?

running around chasing a 20-month-old child. I wanted to try something different. You know, you just get tired of the same old, same old. So my husband loved it. He was like, oh, okay. This reminds me of early 2000s Jennifer. So...

You are allowing us to see glimpses of your love story has been so beautiful. Thank you so much for the way that you have shared, you know, your ups and your your triumphs and your lessons and victory. I you know, that 20 month old baby girl, she seems like she's good stuff. Like, can we talk about motherhood for a minute? Yes, let's talk about it. It is absolutely crazy, life changing, like crazy.

from the moment you finally have this like baby. And I'm like, I remember looking at her in a hospital and I told my husband, I said, I could go to jail. Yeah, no, easy, like easy. I see it now. So I just thought it was so crazy because you just realize like you don't know that your heart can expand to that level. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it looks like you're doing a phenomenal job and that you're cherishing every second of it, which I love. And you're also like still in purpose, which I think is hard for a lot of new mothers to figure out. How do I be present for the baby and be the type of mother I want to be without feeling like I'm losing myself? And I don't know that we talk about this enough in motherhood because a lot of times people feel like,

They want a baby, they get the baby and the baby is a blessing and you love the baby, but the baby also radically changes your life and maybe some of your definitions. Did you go through a period where you're like, okay, I'm going to have to figure out how to be just as much her mother as I am Jennifer as well? Absolutely. I needed to pull on my community and have some honest conversations because I felt like I was losing myself in motherhood and

And here I am, I had this prayer of almost 12 years of trusting and believing God for this child and she's here. And it's like you get the answer prayer and you just want to just lose yourself in it. But realizing, like you said, I still am Jennifer. I still have a calling and a purpose that I'm supposed to fulfill here.

And I had to call on my community and just, and my community being like my family, my close friends, my circle, letting them know, hey, I need moments. I need time where can you come in and step in? Can you help me? Because, you know, I was a stay-at-home mom for a season and I needed that community to come alongside me to give me the time and space to just go out and be Jennifer. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that asking for help is so important. Dr. Anita Phillips always talks about how women are always taking care of other people. And we kind of have this stereotype amongst ourselves is that we're always taking care of people, but then we're also never being taken care of. So it's like if we're always taking care of other people, how come it's never our turn to be taken care of?

But I think a lot of us miss opportunities to be taken care of because we don't ask for it. And I think that for me, I know culturally even there's this expectation of like, don't need anything, don't disrupt environments, don't be a bother to other people. And it conditions us to deny our needs, our feelings, our wants.

And in the process of that, we don't even know how to give it language or to even ask for giving it language is one thing. But then going that extra step of asking for help can be really difficult. But it sounds like you were able to do that. And I pray other women are able to do that as well. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't easy initially, but you have to just lay aside any pride and say, you know what? I can't do this alone. And you start.

calling on those people that you know who deeply love you and that were praying with you for this miracle.

Okay, so I should have grabbed my Bible. I left it back in my room, but you're a Bible teacher. And anytime I have a Bible teacher on the podcast, I feel like we have an opportunity to go on a journey. Maybe you can start with telling me a little bit about your evolution from, you know, being Jennifer, but this extension of Jennifer as a Bible teacher, how did that come to be?

And it's so interesting because I didn't set, no one sets out to say, I want to teach the Bible. It really started with me having opportunities to share my story on how the Lord transformed my life and how he saved me. And from that,

out of that, just growing a love for scripture. And as I began to really understand how to study the Bible, I just really wanted to invite other women in on that.

And so it happened really organic. I started having events where I would bring women in to learn how to sit down and to walk through a passage using inductive Bible study techniques and things of that nature. And the reason why I think I grew so passionate about it was because it...

I really learned how to view God and his character through understanding scripture and not just simply reading at face value. And so, you know, reading it and having devotion is important and it's good, but I just had this desire to go deeper and

You know, I was actually thinking about this. Someone asked me, because I'm always talking about any bond expression in the Bible, and then a publisher actually propositioned me about creating a study Bible. And I do feel like that is the disconnect between a generation of people who I think have fallen away from church, fallen away from faith. I

I think it's because the scriptures have not been contextualized in such a way that they understand that we're showing you the character of God. Like this isn't just you are finishing this statement that we've heard said all the time in a service, right? This isn't just something that we're saying like God is good all the time, all the time God is good. But when you really understand the context of scripture...

It really does help you to understand more deeply when you're having those devotions, what the power behind those words. Like, I wish I could say that better, but I just feel like whenever I was reading the Bible growing up, I didn't realize that I'm really picking up in the middle of a story. And anytime you turn on a movie in the middle of the story, you're going to be lost, confused. Maybe you'll be interested. Maybe you won't be interested. But contextualizing it really goes a long way.

Absolutely. That's what changes the game when you understand that this is an actual story of scripture where we get to learn about who God is and his plan for humanity, his plan for us.

His plan through creation. And that right there, when I'm looking at scripture, it makes me not just read it as words on a page. I'm able to really see His love for me and just all the redemption, like all of it, because it's just so much in it once you really are able to see and understand the context. And so my passion was to just read

make it easy for people like, all right, let's take these big theological terms. Let's break it down in layman's terms and hood everyday knowledge, because, you know, I'm from the hood. I'm a DC girl and I just get women together and we just talk straight. And that's how I learned the Bible. And that's how I like to teach the Bible.

Okay, so someone's listening and they're like, okay, I've kind of been wanting to read the Bible, but like you all said, I get a little bored. I get a little lost. Like what book, what chapter do you think is the best starting place for someone? And what do they need to know about that book in order to really maximize its power? Gosh, it's so much. Let me see. Okay.

I always would say to start with the gospels. I would start with Jesus and learning about Jesus and who he is because Jesus is the son of God and is God and

Reading about him and starting that way is a really great starting point. Understanding the purpose of our salvation and why we needed Jesus to come in on the scene. And I would just start them there because the whole Bible is about Jesus in some way, even the Old Testament, right? It points to his coming. And so...

I would just start with the gospels. That's so good. I'm wondering how has your study of the Bible transformed your definition of what it means to be free? Oh, that's good. How has my study of the Bible transformed? Well,

it has helped me to grow more in love with the one who gives me the freedom. Jesus is the one who has set us free. Scripture says, the truth, let me quote the right verse, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. And so you cannot know the truth without studying the scripture. And

In that we find freedom from understanding scripture and our freedom doesn't give us a license to just do whatever we want to do. But what it does do, it empowers us to walk out our calling. It empowers us to serve Jesus. It empowers us to glorify him in everything that we do.

I feel like the scripture that people like to quote and abuse all of the time is a perfect example of what you just said. And that's, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Like, we love to use it as a flex, but in context. All things.

If we look at it in context, he's not suggesting that you can just do whatever you want to do through Christ Jesus. What he's saying is no matter where I am in life, I can do it because I am free enough through Jesus to survive whatever comes my way, which really changes the way that we use that scripture if we put it in context properly. Absolutely. Absolutely. And if we even look even deeper now,

Paul, in that particular verse, he is talking about the ability to be content. Because when he writes it, he's in prison. And he is writing to the Philippians and then he's...

writing about the situation and he said, I can do all things. It's like, I can imagine him just sitting, encouraging himself as he is writing this letter to the Philippian church. And he's encouraging them as well. Like I can be content. I can be a bound. I can be a based. Like this is the situation that he's in even when he says that. I love that so much because I just feel like

When we understand even the prison epistles, like that he was writing certain things from prison, it changes the way that we look at it. I mean, I feel like Paul...

One, the way he was getting people together in his letters is just like, if I could ever get this Ebonics version of the Bible going, I think people would really enjoy that. He was like, do you know what I have gone through? Do you know who I used to be? If I can be saved and converted, the Jews and the Gentiles can figure out how to work this thing out. Why would we do this by works when it was nothing? Like the way he just be, literally, I feel like he'd be talking crazy to people and I'm here for it. I'm here for it as well. And I

And Paul is one of my favorite people in scripture. I relate to him so much because I relate to the person that was so far from God. And then God just radically transforms their life and uses them.

Totally. Okay. So I am wondering, as you have begun this journey of becoming a Bible teacher, having these events, helping people to really connect the dots, to understand the power of God's word, how it applies to their life. I see a lot of your commentary on social media sometimes about just encouraging people to get into churches where the Bible is being taught.

helping them to understand the difference between what may just be motivation or milk versus really getting into the meat of the word. And so I think as we look at the current landscape of ministry, of what's popular, what's effective, what's harmful, what do you think is the greatest opportunity we have right now? Wow.

The greatest opportunity that we have right now is that people are, especially this generation, are incredibly hungry for truth.

And because they are so hungry, they want the meat. And that's what I appreciate. We have an opportunity to equip a generation in discipleship, equip a generation to know how to study the word, but then apply it and walk it out like we can.

a generation that doesn't just want to sit in the pews. We have a generation that wants to go out into the world and to make impact. You know, this is the generation of impactful people, whether they're doing it on TikTok and social media. But I feel like we have, I don't know your age, Sarah, but I know that I'm like what you call a geriatric millennial. Yeah.

So I feel like when I think of opportunity, I think of this is my opportunity to step up even more as a Titus 2 woman. To be able to pour into the younger generation, to really equip them to go out and to make that impact for Jesus.

I'm 36. I'll be 37 in July. Okay. But I think because of me being a mother at such an early age and just because of all of the things I've gone through that I earned my auntie status a little bit early. Because it'd be girls 30 years old calling me auntie. I'm like, sis, maybe big sister. Maybe big sis. Yeah. I'm 43. I'll announce it. And fine. I have enjoyed...

Getting older, like I know 36 is not like older, but I have enjoyed settling into my womanhood. Yes. And settling into my identity. I think that I spent a lot of time on the run when I was younger, like running from this idea of who I didn't want to be, running towards who I thought I should be. And I feel like I have finally found the grace to be still within myself and to let everything move forward.

From from me and not towards or me moving towards something, if that makes sense. It makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. I'm loving my. Well, you can't see it now with the tracks, but I have silver hair that's coming through. And I was like, I don't want to diet right now. Yeah, I want to own this thing a bit. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, I've been minding the questions that I've wanted to ask you. But okay, so I'm wondering, you've done missionary work across five different countries. And I am wondering how seeing the global church has shaped your understanding. Yeah. Let's talk about that. Has changed your perspective on, you know, westernize. I won't even call it a Western.

I won't even call it Westernized. I'm going to call it Americanized because even in Western countries like the UK, Rome, their definition of church is different than what we have going on in America. How has seeing the global church changed? And I'm going to challenge because I think a lot of times when we have these conversations, it's easy to point out all of the things that are wrong with the American church in comparison to the global church. But I'm curious, what do you think? Not only where do we have opportunity to grow because I'm a part of this and I want to see it grow, but what do you think we're doing right now?

Hmm. Are we doing anything right? Wait a minute. I don't want to say that we...

I want to just point out our wrongs because I think we are. I think one of the things that we are doing right as an American church, we know how to use what we have like access to in order to reach the masses. In our church context, there's so much creativity that I see here. And I think that

That's a good thing. God has given us the ability to create so that we can become all things to all men so that we may reach one, right? I think we are doing a great job at that. I think...

From my travels, what I see that we can grow in is the absolute hunger for Jesus without all of the bells and whistles, right? Because you know how it is. We come to church, we wanna get our coffee in the lobby. We want the lights a certain way, the worship. If something is off, it's like, oh no, this is off. The spirit of God is not here and all of that. And it's just like,

In other countries, church is just church. And they may not have, as a matter of fact, they don't have all of those bells and whistles in certain countries. And especially in regions where there's great poverty, they're just coming to hear and receive and to grow because they want to know Jesus. So we can grow into that.

Do you think it's fair to say, this is an analogy that came to mind as you were speaking, in the American church, do you think that church has become the main course instead of the dessert? But in other countries, it's like the dessert. They're not waiting to get to church to be sustained and to be fulfilled. And then they leave, whether they may or may not like it, they send it back. Whereas dessert is just the cherry on top because they are having to

actively engage with their faith every single day for a means of survival, hope, inspiration in countries that are experiencing difficulty? Absolutely. I think suffering in general changes our hunger. And

I feel like when we are in those positions and those wilderness moments, our desperation for God increases.

You know what I think in my church journey experience, and I say that intentionally church because I think my church journey versus my faith journey are two completely different things. But one of the things that struck me as an adult is that I felt like a lot of our messages, and you can teach me in this moment, I welcome your teaching. But I felt like a lot of what I received was maybe about who God was, maybe about the power of what God can do.

Maybe what we can do for God, but I don't know that there was as much emphasis on the inner transformative power of the Holy Spirit to change us at our core, to change the way that, oh, this is just

the way that I am, or I'll always be this, I'll always be that way. I feel like there hasn't been as much platform for the power of the Holy Spirit to really renew our minds, to change our heart postures, to give us the ability to forgive, to give us the power that we need in order to do what God has called us to do, whether that's breaking an addiction, walking away from a relationship, or pursuing purpose, that the power,

everything that God's going to call us to do, that we're not going to do it in our own strength. We're going to do it through the power of the Holy Spirit. And I'm not sure that I felt like there was enough focus on that. And then as a result, I think there's no hunger for it because I think that if we could get the world to see that

the thing that you're struggling with, the thing that you think will always be your reality, not even outer circumstances. I'm talking about mentalities. I'm talking about ways of being that have plagued your family, that the power of God can show up and you can begin to set a new course and set a new trend for your family. I don't know that we have spent as much time talking about that. And I think that I have felt a burden over the last few years to really become even more intimately acquainted with

the power of the Holy Spirit and my own walk, my own journey, but then to also encourage and create a hunger for people to experience that as well. Oh, absolutely. I...

I believe that the Holy Spirit is who changes us, who gives us the ability to walk out all that we are called to do, be, and have in Christ. And so I think a focus on the Holy Spirit and what you said, you're right on it, with it. I mean, just knowing that the Holy Spirit is

the third person of the Trinity is with us and walking with us. He's with us in our hard times. He's with us in the mental anguish, all of that. But he's not just with us. He's there to help us walk through it. He's with us to help us just heal, right? You know, we can't heal without the power of the Holy Spirit. And I feel like

So many of us think that the power of the Holy Spirit has to be this moment.

Right. I was just going to say, I'm going to let you, when I was growing up, being filled with the Holy Ghost was, can you shout and can you speak in time? And if you can do those things, you didn't have the Holy Ghost. Right. And that's not it. Right. The Holy Spirit partners with all believers. Right. And so it's not, you know, of course we had these special moments where the Spirit of God and His presence shows up. Right. But that's,

The Holy Spirit is with us in those quiet moments where we are not feeling goosebumps, right? And so we have to trust that the Holy Spirit is with us and call on Him and ask Him for help. He is the comforter, right? He is the one to lead us and guide us into all truth. So when I'm feeling confused and when I'm feeling, you know, anxious,

anguished and disappointed, like I can lean on the Holy Spirit and simply ask Him to lead me and guide me. And so I think we have to recognize that the Holy Spirit is a person that walks with us. And if we can just really ingrain that into the minds of believers to know that they walk with the Holy Spirit every day, that they're not doing this journey alone, then some freedom can come.

I was just going to ask you, what does it look like for you as a woman in leadership serving other people, maybe sometimes carrying other people through that service? What does it look like you protecting your own freedom, protecting your own walk? There's sometimes therapists get it. It's escaped me. Oh,

it's got something to do with like sympathy fatigue or empathy fatigue. Empathy fatigue. Yes. Empathy fatigue. I feel like in ministry, there's a lot of opportunity to have empathy fatigue, to have the moments where someone else is going through it. And it's kind of, you kind of like, God, why would you,

Why would that happen to them? You know what I mean? Where you're asking some of those questions yourself. How do you protect your heart posture, keeping it pure, keeping your eyes focused on who you know Jesus to be while also trying to keep your eyes and heart close to the people who he's called you to serve?

Yeah. Prayer, man. Like, because you're right. It's so funny. One of my really close girlfriends yesterday sent me some meme or something on Instagram about me being like this super empathic individual. And she's like, that's so not me. Right. But I, when she sent it to me, I read it and I was like, wow, I tend to struggle with taking on the burdens of other people. And that's,

the only way that I'm able to protect myself is to take that burden and lay it at his feet, you know, and it's laying it at his feet is just simply praying for the person and trusting that God has them because he can care for them more than I can. Right. My, uh,

Anguish about it and my compassion like the holy spirit may give me some wisdom in order to assist and to help in a specific way but ultimately knowing that like he Christ is the helper. He's the savior and so, um, I think that's something that a lot of leaders may wrestle with because

we wrestle with this savior complex as well. You know, we want to see every, everybody better, everything better. And we sometimes want to be the one to save. And we have to realize that no, Christ is the one who saves, but it's your job to,

to pray. It's your job to assist in some way if you're able to, right? Within the way and the means that the Holy Spirit may be leading you.

That's been one of my greatest fears. I mean, you have you have known or followed my journey long enough to know that like this isn't necessary. Well, I don't know. It maybe it's obvious to other people, but just this wasn't necessarily where things were headed. This is what wasn't what I was aspiring to become. And so I think one of my greatest fears and like.

allowing the Lord to order my steps is like, I don't ever want to need to be the hero. I don't want to need. And it's hard when you go into rooms and people are so excited to see you in the room.

to make sure that you know they're really only there to see the God in you. Even if they don't know that, it's my job to know that this is on Him. This is on the Holy Spirit showing up on you. The Holy Spirit don't show up, this don't mean nothing. These people are not here for you. They're here to see what you know about God.

So you need to keep knowing things about God. They're here to understand what the Holy Spirit is speaking to you. So you need to live in such a way that the Holy Spirit can flow through you. But I don't, and I feel like, I be, sometimes I'm like, God, couldn't you have gotten someone who,

didn't experience rejection from people, because sometimes I feel like my biggest thing is because I received so much rejection from people at an early age, it can be intoxicating to suddenly be loved, suddenly be accepted. But it also feels unsafe too, right? Because I know what can happen. And so I live in this tension of trying to

honor and value other people's experience with me and how it's maybe served them in different seasons of their life, while also making sure that I know that it's just God who did it and living in that space. And the more that the Lord allows my influence to increase or my name to be impactful in what he's doing in the lives of others, that is like...

the way that I'm saying like balled up in a corner is like, God, please don't let me see it. Please don't let me believe it. Please let me hang on to you in the midst of it all. Cause it is scary to continue to experience, uh,

Whatever you want to call it, people call it elevation. It feels like being on a tightrope. It's scary to be in that space. And I want to trust God in every step of the way. Yeah, I know. I can't imagine. And I know that it is difficult. I think one of the things that we as leaders also...

can do is to also remind people that, look, this is the Holy Spirit working through me and, you know, I can't do this without him. Right. And to remind them of our humanity as well. Right. Because, yeah, sometimes we just got to remind people. Yeah.

Yeah. I always say this little prayer before I preach. I'm like, no nerves, no anxiety, just your spirit flowing through me. And I've been saying that since I first started preaching. And someone told me like, you should stop saying that God's not giving you the spirit. And I was like, no, because I want people to know for real. Yes.

If you don't show up, we just going to be out here looking at each other. I'm going to be looking at them. They're going to be looking at me. And we're not going to have nothing to say to each other because I cannot. And most importantly, don't want to do it without the Lord. Wow. And Sarah, do you remember I was at your very first speaking engagement? Was that in Chicago? Yes. You did a keynote. And? Yeah.

I, I, oh, I can't, I'm sweating thinking about speaking right now. It's just not my thing. It's just not my thing. It's just not, it's just not where I thrive. I will write you them words all day long, but that speaking is something. I forgot that. That's right. That was in Chicago. That's where we met. That was 2013. Yes. Wow. And the Holy Spirit has been working ever since then.

Amen. Okay, listen, I want to ask you, we have a few mutuals on social media. And then because you have allowed us some access to your friendship group, I know that you are connected with people who may not share.

share the same passion that you have for Bible teaching. And I am wondering, because I get this question so much, especially from younger women who are trying to navigate their faith in spaces where they may be the only one or they're friends with people who don't believe the same things they believe. How do you

navigate your faith existing in spaces where, you know, people are on different, they have different religious backgrounds or just different stages of where they are in their journey. How do you do that? Like, yeah, how do you navigate that? Yeah, it's just a mutual understanding and a respect of knowing that God has me on a path and has them on a path and on a journey and

And understanding our journeys and understanding our purpose and where we are and loving people through, how can I say it?

Because I believe that God is constantly working in the lives of people, no matter where they are. Right. And our growth happens during different seasons and different times. And so just loving people through that and not dimming my light when I'm around them. Right. But also making sure that I'm around people that respect me.

who I am and what I'm doing as I equally respect who they are and what they're doing and what God may be doing in them. So that's how I'm able to navigate it. I think my friends, we just truly respect each other. That's the core of it. We respect and we value each other as human beings.

before anything else. And so that's how I'm able to just have a good time and able to enjoy the person without sitting up and always like, okay, well now it's time for, you know, exegesis. Turn your Bible to. Right. Because there's so much more. Like, yes, I'm a Bible teacher, but I'm also just a person. I'm a friend. I love music. You know, I love a good time. You know, I love to share

shop and to travel and arts and music. And so to really just connect with individuals and allow myself to connect with my friends on all of our interests and

Yeah. I think that's over complicated. I was going to say, I was, I was just going to say this because one was crazy. If believers only hang out with believers, we'll never, we will never win the world. Right. We'll never win the world. And so being positioned in such a way that our faith is strong enough that it can be protected and not easily influenced by anything that comes along our way, but also being, uh,

open and available to where God may place us, whether it's in friendships or job opportunities, where we may be the only light they see. So we got to make sure we're doing what we can to keep the oil burning in our own light, to keep that fire going. But we also can't be afraid to go into spaces where our light is necessary. And that friend who may not be on the same faith journey that you're on right now may call you in the middle of the night and say, what's them little prayers y'all be doing? I need something. I'm down to nothing. And it has happened.

I bet. It has happened. And I've, I literally, I just went out with, you know, a good friend of mine from high school. He's been my friend and, you know, he's in an alternative relationship, right? And I love him. And he, we grew up together, but he,

If I never hang out with him, you know, I'm never able to show the light and the love of Jesus to him. And so there are opportunities when, and my mother has always told me this. She said, you go and you love and because when they need Jesus, they're going to call you. Right.

Right. And there have been those opportunities where I'm able to minister and to share the love of Christ because of my love for them just in having a dinner. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you named your daughter Justice. Why'd you name her that? Well, if I don't shout her out, she's going to fuss at me. Okay, let's do it. So my friend Ronnie. Oh, yes. Hey, girl.

Hey, Queen. Yes. Hey, sis. So she actually told me justice. I love that name. And I was like, I prayed about it. And I went to my husband and we started, you know, looking up the definitions and reading scripture about justice throughout scripture. And it just hit. It was like, this is it. And I started thinking about shenanigans.

the sweet justice of the Lord, like to be able to have a child at 41 years old. Like it was just, to me, that was justice to be able to do that. Okay. And you were open about your infertility journey on social media and,

And I remember, I think you were going in and I don't know, because we don't really talk like that much. But for some reason, I must have just been at the right space at the right time in your DMs because you allowed me to know that that was happening. Yes, that I was getting a embryo transfer. And she was my final embryo. I went through the IVF treatment. And

And I only got two embryos out of that process. One I miscarried. And that miscarriage was so devastating to me. It put me into a depression. And it was really just a hard miscarriage. And it took me a year to get up the courage and heal my body and to heal my mind and all of that.

to say, all right, I'm going to transfer this last embryo. And that last embryo was Justice. I said, wow, she was frozen for a year. And came in hot, came in kicking. Came in hot and healthy and such a gift.

So I'm wondering on your journey, because of course, I think women are becoming more and more open about having struggles with infertility. I am wondering, do you keep hope alive? Do you let it go and then wait until like you just see what happens? Like what do we do in these moments where you've been trying, you've been trying and it doesn't seem like it's happening? How do you survive those moments? Yeah.

You know, I wrote a whole book about this. What's it called? What's it called? Where we get it from? It's called When Dreams Fall Apart, Deeper Faith Through Unanswered Prayer. You know, the thing is...

My encouragement for them is to trust God's character and to really go and to know that no matter what is happening, even in the midst of infertility,

uh, even in the midst of, uh, just waiting for whatever that is, that God is good and he has a plan. And although we, in that, in that moment, you don't know what the plan is to trust that his plan is good and it's for our good and ultimately for his glory. And, uh,

It doesn't always feel good because... And I want people to understand that as well. Like, there's space to lament infertility. We're in a fallen world where things don't always pan out the way that we desire. Things don't happen the way that I planned on my vision board. But...

God's plan is often even better than what

we have envisioned. And that doesn't come without a breaking at times. It doesn't come without lament and hurt, but he does have a plan and that plan is good. And so that is my encouragement for us to really just lean in and trust in the character of God. If we truly, truly get into understanding who he is, then that right there would build up our

your faith. Okay, so this is my closing question. As you consider the next five years of your life, and what you hope freedom will look like for you five, maybe 10 years, what do you hope freedom looks like for you then?

I really hope in five or 10 years that I am really just continuing to live out my calling for the good of others and for his glory. That is what freedom looks like to me without caring what others may think and feel. Like sometimes I feel like one of the struggles that I've had was,

I wonder what people are going to say and the blogs and all of that. But true freedom in Christ is just going forth without wondering, without allowing the outside voices to deter you in any way. And so for me, I just want to be free and living out that calling, loving my family and just...

Serve in him. That's it. It's simple. Yeah, that's I mean, that's that's the best five, 10 year plan that anybody can have. Yeah, it's not it's not about stats or numbers or destination. People ask me, like, what's next? I'm like, I don't even this is beyond what I could have planned for at all. So at this point, we're just seeing what what God does, where God takes us. Amen. I'm with you every day. We just trust in the Lord and whatever doors he opens, we'll just see when we get there.

Well, I have to tell you, I want you to come do a Bible study. I get too many people who ask me, how do you study the Bible? And I know that after this, there are going to be so many people who are reaching out to you. So we'll have to see if you will do a Bible study for us. I'd really enjoy that. I would love to do that. We would just walk through a book or a chapter of the Bible and a passage, anything. That'll be a lot of fun. I would love that.

I tried to tell you that was going to be so good. I pray that something said today settled into your soul and just reminded you that freedom is not a destination. It's literally a decision. It's one that we make every single day to keep trusting God, to

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of this entire podcast is the Holy Spirit. Until next time, I want you to keep evolving, keep studying and keep walking in the fullness of who God called you to be. I love you. And before we go, let's pray. Holy Spirit, we welcome you into our being, into our thoughts, into the condition of our heart.

We welcome your power, your comfort, your guidance to lead us into righteousness.

We thank you, Holy Spirit, that you can meet us in whatever condition we are in and transform us into looking more and more like Jesus. God, I'm praying for every person right now who doesn't even know it, but they need a touch from the Holy Spirit. They need to learn how to walk with the Holy Spirit. Perhaps they've been walking with shame. They've been walking with fear. They've been walking with anxiety. But the Holy Spirit longs to walk with them.

God, I pray that you would help them to become hungry for the Holy Spirit to walk with them

to guide them and to lead them as they embark into this new season of their life. May they do so knowing that you will dispatch angels, that you will give them power, ability, capacity to walk out this next dimension of who they are. God, I thank you that even now that your Holy Spirit is resting on them, may they cling to it, create space for it to grow and blossom so that they may grow and blossom. In Jesus' name I pray, amen.

Amen. Evolve.