Leveling Up w/ Morgan DeBaun
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What's good? It's Colleen Witt and Eating While Broke is back for season three. Brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network and iHeart Radio. We're serving up some real stories and life lessons from people like Van Lathan, DC Youngfly, Bone Thugs-N-Harmony, and many more.

They're sharing the dishes that got them through their struggles and the wisdom they gained along the way. We're cooking up something special. So tune in every Thursday. Listen to Eating While Broke on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Yo, it's Big Bank. Check out my podcast, Prospective with Bank, on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Each and every Monday, Prospective with Bank podcasts will feature individuals, all walks of life, who come together to share their unique perspective and engage in enlightened conversation. This podcast will explore all types of conversations from everyday people, your favorite celebrities. Every Monday, listen to Prospective with Bank on Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple

Wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by AT&T. Connecting changes everything. God can't bless who you pretend to be or who you compare yourself to. He can only bless you and the lane that was created for you. I feel that for somebody. You don't need no edge entity. You need boundaries. What? I don't need your likes. I don't need your validation. All I need is a God fighting for me that says all things are the same.

Chad, listen, I can remember the first time it became evident that I was going to be sharing my story with other people besides myself. At the time, I would not have called it a ministry. I would have said that I am just out here sharing my story.

Then there was this moment where I was no longer sharing my story and I was ministering to people. Literally that word minister means to serve them. I was serving people who had similar backgrounds, similar hopes, similar fears as my own.

And I made this vow to myself. I made this promise. And that promise was I want to be the kind of woman, the kind of minister, the type of pastor that would have captured my attention when I was in the most lost state of my childhood.

And while I have fulfilled that in many ways, I think little Sarah would be like, who is that? I also realized that as I look at the next generation, that they need more, they need something different. And I don't necessarily know that I can be all of what they need.

but I'm hoping that my life can be a template, something that they can look at and say, if she did it this way, then maybe I could edit, modify, twist and change and do it my way.

I am talking to my fellow auntie in training. Can we talk about these auntie statuses that you all giving us? Like, are we aunties in training or do we have the crown? Like we are auntie certified. I have questions. I'm talking to my fellow auntie on the way, Morgan Devon, who's actually about to become a mother for the first time. And we're talking about not just what we want to see happen in the next generation, how we want to serve them and how our lives can hopefully change.

Help blaze the trail for them as they are up and coming, but also what are the implications of being a woman of power in this generation? What does it mean to be charting your own way and defining your own identity in a world that has often tried to subject you to the roles that you should play?

What I found so interesting about this podcast is though Morgan is undeniably successful, prominent and intelligent, she has also allowed us to see outside of her alpha female world, her alpha female resume, who she is at her core as a woman on a journey learning, discovering and feeling her way through.

If you don't know who Morgan Debonney is, I have just put you on game in a way that you're just going to thank me for later. But for those of you who don't know, I'll just let you know that since she became the founder and CEO of Blavity, one of Forbes 40 under 40, one of America's up and coming best founders, she has found herself

strategically consulting huge corporations, American Airlines, PepsiCo. She started so many branch, 2190, Travel Noir. She's quite literally a girl boss, but a girl and a powerful one at that. That reminds us all that you don't have to pick between being leather or lace. You don't have to pick between soft or hard. You can be this beautiful combination of them all.

And maybe, just maybe, that's what true feminism is. I can't wait to share this episode with you. Let's get into it. Okay, Morgan, I have to know, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Like, how did the little girl you were turn into the woman you are now? How did this all start? You know, I got to start by saying where I'm from. I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. I grew up in the suburbs of St. Louis. And, you know, I lived in a cul-de-sac.

Um, and my parents were high school sweethearts and my grandparents all lived within like a five mile radius of each other. So I grew up around a lot of family and, um, pretty standard like family situation. You know, my parents, my dad worked, my mom stayed at home, um, and took care of me and my brother. And my parents always tried to make sure that I had

every opportunity afforded to me. They worked really hard. My dad worked multiple jobs so that my mom could stay home. And even to just how they indoctrinated me into being my own independent woman. Even as early as when I was in probably like elementary school and I would start going to the doctor, my mom would make sure that I spoke up for myself. So if the doctor was asking me a question like, how are you? How are you feeling? Usually they look at the

And my mom would look right back at me and say, all right, go ahead. How are you feeling? What's going on? And speak up for yourself. For when we're ordering at restaurants and the waiter is asking, hey, what does she want to eat? They wouldn't answer for me. So I think that that really taught me to, from an early on,

Speak up for myself, understand what I want, how I feel, be able to articulate that, even if it feels weird or even if other people aren't looking to me to have a response. And clearly that's worked out for me today as an entrepreneur and as a leader. There's definitely some downsides. I had to learn when to pull back. In high school, I got some feedback from my teachers that I should let other people answer the questions first because I was always the first person to raise my hands. Yeah.

And that was when I was like, why should I fall back? Because other people are taking, like, don't know the answer, you know? So I had to like kind of work through some of my aggressive leaderships, like tendencies. Yeah.

Okay, first of all, I want you to know that your childhood doesn't sound very standard to me at all. Like it sounds very American dreamish, but I don't know anyone who's like, you know, cul-de-sac, both parents in the home, grandparents, five, like this is giving American dream.

Yeah, I guess standard in that it was standard for the upper middle class suburbia of Chesterfield, Missouri, you know, which is a suburb of St. Louis. Certainly when you look at the statistics of America, it's not the standard you're right.

Even as idyllic as that upbringing is, your parents had enough wisdom, enough foresight to also equip you with this sense of independence. But I'm even going to say innovation, right? Because I think when you hear this, you know, I think American dream of a childhood, one would think that a daughter raised in that environment would then go on, find her own cul-de-sac,

be five minutes within her parents and stay at home while the man works. And Morgan, you're very much so not giving. It's just not giving that. It's giving like girl boss. It's giving world changer. It's giving

At what point did you ever feel, I guess, pressure maybe to recreate your childhood or to fall into what would have been, I guess, a stereotype of what womanhood should look like given that background being so idyllic?

Yeah, it's interesting. I definitely did resist quite a bit this idea of like, I guess I had resentment to my mom a little bit of like, why didn't you do something? Like, once my brother and I were kind of good, you know, we can drive ourselves to school. Yeah, near 1516. I definitely had a lot of conflict with my mom because I just was kind of like,

go do something like we're good. Like you did your job. It was a sacrifice. My mom has a master's in teaching and both sides of my grandmother's had master's degrees in either teaching or nursing. So I've come from a family of working moms and I didn't understand fully why she just like didn't work.

You know? Yeah. Not because of the money, but because I'm just like, what else are you going to do for the rest of your life? And I think that I've maybe overcompensated for that resentment early in my 20s by, you

only working, you know, and it wasn't until I hit my 30s that I truly understood the actual sacrifice that she was making so that I could have what looks like an idyllic life. And my dad, you know, was the provider and worked crazy hours so that she didn't have to work. And I look back and say, all my clothes are from Goodwill. All of my costumes were homemade, right? And

When you're a kid, you don't see that stuff. Right. Right. But now I'm like, oh, man, this is how lucky was I, you know, to be balanced. And I think now that I'll be having my own family soon, pregnant with my first child.

I did move back to be five minutes from my parents. Oh, yeah. I left L.A. and moved to Nashville, which is where they now live, because I wanted to be around my family as I transitioned into them aging and also me just trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life outside of work. And I don't think that I would have had the courage to leave L.A.

That's really, I love that.

especially for a lot of women who maybe feel unfulfilled sometimes or wonder if they are adding as much value to the world as women who are blazing trails like you are, infiltrating systems that have historically been limited to men or white men. And what does this making these sandwiches and making these costumes, do they really matter? And yet when you were at a pivotal shift in your life, you pulled from that because it

I mean, she must have taught you that it's possible to have joy and contentment doing these things as much as you have in doing those things too. So maybe when we're in those different stages of our lives, it's not about how can I add the most noise with my impact, but how can I find the most joy and contentment to display for the people who are watching me in this season? You know who I think is doing a good job at that? Miley Teal.

Like, I don't know if you follow her on Instagram, but I've seen her, you know, she I saw her girl boss era and then transitioning into motherhood and like giving herself permission to really just live fully in whatever the moment is requiring and bringing joy and satisfaction to that, which is I mean, you have plants. You're a plant mom.

Yeah, I'm a plant mom. Yeah, absolutely. I think my leak actually was one of the women personally who encouraged me to really reconsider how I was approaching my dating life early on when I was kind of entering that season of wanting to find my partner, wanting to be in partnership with another person.

She gave me a lot of books that I should read. She helped me rethink the definition of dating as an alpha woman. And I'm super grateful for the advice that she's given to me and the entire black female community. I mean, to your point, she has totally dedicated her life to helping black women reach our full capacity. So very grateful for her. Okay. So let's rewind a little bit. So they tell you, stop raising your hand and give somebody else a chance to be smart. Right.

You gave us a little bit of a chance, but not much, because after that, you take off into tech. Was tech your first step? Okay, let me tell you something. For those of you who do not know, I am talking to an innovator, a general, a world changer in the world of tech. Her name is respected literally all over the world. Morgan, can you help me understand, like, how would you define tech?

The lane that you occupy in tech, I'm really curious about it because as opposed to blending in with someone else's system, someone else's already in motion, you created your own lane. What made you do that? Yeah. When I was in college, I looked at a bunch of different careers and wanted to make the most impact the fastest.

and be with innovators, with the people who were creating the rules. And so I moved to the Bay Area, which at the time was the hub of Silicon Valley, and started working at a big tech company. And what I realized when I was there was,

These people are not smarter than us. These white and Asian men that are building the tools that we use for this podcast, the phones and apps that we use every single day, there is nothing special about them compared to us. The difference is proximity to opportunity and network and then having the audacity to believe that you can be the one to build a billion-dollar empire. Wow.

And I think that once I realized that there was nothing special about them, that gave me the audacity to dream that up for myself and our community. And that's the beginning of how Blavity was built over nine years ago. Today, we've expanded. We're a corporation that creates products and solutions for Black audiences and Black consumers, everything from helping companies hire Black

Black workforces through Afrotech and our product Talent Infusion, which is a B2B subscription product, all the way to, of course, our media brands and our media portfolio with 2190 and Travel Noir and Home and Texture. And it's just one giant ecosystem, but the Black community is at its core. And when you go to Silicon Valley, you will not ever find the Black community at the core of

Yeah. What kind of opposition were you up against to create something where the black community is at the core in an industry that doesn't necessarily even have any black faces in the perimeters to say, no, this is going to be the core. What was that opposition like?

Yeah, it's much different than it was today. Today, it's a lot different than it was back in my day. So in my day, you could walk around San Francisco and see like three black people who maybe one worked at Twitter, one worked at Salesforce and like one worked at LinkedIn. So I was definitely fighting an uphill battle in terms of helping people understand the business opportunity that

Everybody tends to agree that black folks influence culture. Right, right. You know, they get it, right? When you talk about who are the top athletes, who are the top musicians, what's the top people influencing fashion. It's all going to be black. Yet,

It's still a leap mentally for a lot of white folks to then say, therefore, black consumers and black people have an outsized impact on our spending habits globally. Yeah. So that was what I was fighting up against was the...

for people to acknowledge that, yes, these people have power, but so much power that there's actually a business opportunity here to cultivating, embracing, empowering, and literally handing platforms over to Black consumers to drive their own destiny and to elevate us. So it was challenging at times, but the people who got it, got it.

And ultimately, I was able to raise, you know, under 13 million dollars and build this company that's now over 200 people. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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Okay, so before the George Floyd incident and George Floyd murder in 2020, you know, many corporations were hesitant to engage fully with any type of empowerment that would, you know, positively affect corporations.

of color. Obviously, we've seen a shift and, you know, some people have not stepped up to the plate as much as they said they would. Some have obviously really made it a part of their core values. Before then, though, which is when you were working where it wasn't necessarily open doors for someone who was so obviously going to be doing something for black communities. Even when you see what Arian is up against with the affirmative active action case like chaos, chaos,

I'm trying to figure out like, how do you, well, I guess you've had it since you were a little girl, but you get to answer your own questions on a podcast. But like, how do you get the courage to say, I am going to do this for black people, for the black community without, without,

I don't know, without investing into this paradigm of like code switching and respectability and, you know, you got to get in the room first. And then when you're in the room, maybe you can bring another seat to the table. But you I feel like you just busted the doors open. And and what is that?

Yeah. You know, I think that it was in the beginning I was trying to play by their rules. So I wore the startup uniform, you know, I had the black t-shirt with the Blavity logo. I had the San Francisco boots and the jeans. I played the white boy stance. I used their vocabulary when I was pitching. I joined the accelerators that the white boys were joining. Um, I saw press in the places where white people were going to be reading the press. I absolutely played their game. Um,

That didn't work, though. So I think that's what a lot of us have found out is like, even if you try to play their game, you're still up against a lot of different other things. Ultimately, what I had to shift to, which I think is the case for many black folks, is I actually had to figure out who was going to fund me, not because they believed in a huge value of the business, but because they believed in the change and the impact that

company could make along the way. So that social impact investors and similar to fearless on an area. And it's so good that you brought them up because this attack on companies and funds that are trying to

level the playing field and provide equity and have big corporate donations and corporate investments for people who are at the corporate level trying to invest in these funds. This is a big problem because we just got here. Yeah. I mean, like barely, like they could undo it very easily because we're not established enough in it.

Exactly. And more importantly, these types of things scare big corporations. So for every other Aryan out here who's trying to raise their fund, it's not at her level yet.

all these companies might be saying, you know what, let's just not invest in the black girl fund. Let's not invest in the black boy fund, or let's try to make sure that the funds that we're investing in are not dedicated to underserved audiences. Of course they can invest in black people, but they should not have allocated funds just for the underserved and underestimated. That's a problem.

Okay, so I want to find a way to ask this question in a way that makes sense. But, you know, a lot of these systems were set up to make sure that they benefited one particular group of people.

They just weren't vocal about it. Like no one said that this is the, you know, PWI fund for, you know what I mean? Like nobody said that. Do you think, maybe I shouldn't record this and it be anywhere. Like, do you think maybe we still keep it going, but like we don't get to be as vocal about it? Do we play their game and still just serve our people the way that they did?

I think there's a lot of people that actually do that. I think the older generation did that. They were really quiet about it. So I'm going to be loud for them real quick. So like there's rules for minority owned businesses that you can get access to certain government contracts and also certain corporations, Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, American Airlines, they have to have a certain number of their supplier funds go to diverse businesses. This is where...

diversity certifications come in like the nmsndc our generation is not trying to be diversity certified but our parents generation were all over those government contracts i mean they were getting auto dealerships they were getting manufacturing businesses quietly they weren't running around on tiktok and instagram talking about i just got this huge contract i'm

$200 million contract or $50 million contract from the government. Our demographic, our peers were like, look at me. With the money up to the ear, like who's talking now? Money talking. I'm in Martha's Vineyard. And I do think that you get the reaction that you're looking for, which is a lot of attention. Yeah. Oh, goodness. Okay. I'm going to leave that alone. Yeah.

I think that people need to know it because it's not new. You know, there have been systems, to your point, that have been set up to level the playing field. And I do think that black folks have been taking advantage of those systems in the last 100 years. What is new is our power for information and distribution and us having our control of our narrative. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so, you know, today's innovators are tomorrow's leaders. As an innovator in your field, when you look at the next generation, right? And I know that that's a little strange if you feel like I do. Like I, what next generation? Like I'm still...

Forget them kids. OK, but I guess it's a reality where we are anti approaching, if not anti certified. When you look at this next generation, what makes you hopeful and what makes you cautious? Oh, this next generation is incredible. We've we've dealt them a pretty challenging hand. You know, they they're going to have to deal with climate change in a way that we're only dealing with.

In our 30s, 40s, as we age, they're going to be dealing with that when they are in high school and college. They are dealing and holding accountable companies that have terrible labor practices.

You know, you see that with Shein or Cheyenne. I don't know how to pronounce it. I know, Shein. It was Shein for me for the longest. Somebody told me I was saying it wrong. I mean, I was ordering from them until I saw all the TikToks and all of the conversations around their practices. And I said, I just didn't know. But of course I should have known because this pricing doesn't make sense. So...

I think that they are more educated, more informed, and more unapologetic about social issues. And whereas maybe it took us a little bit longer to find our voice, they're starting, like, way younger.

It's true. My daughter is 13. She's in the ninth grade. They're reading To Kill a Mockingbird in her class. And the teacher said Negro. And she hit the roof. And I was like, Kenzie, just so you know, like...

Like, you know, I can go up there, but I'm telling you just the N-word that we really like to cut up about has a hard ER on it. You know, this one, you know, though it makes you uncomfortable, it was a little bit more acceptable decades ago. So I don't know if I'm going to be because she's ready for me to like call the NAACP. Yes. What are we doing? And she's like, I don't care. It makes me uncomfortable.

And as one of the only black girls in the classroom, he should have enough common. I'm like, and I'm with you, Harriet. It's just the thing is.

The thing is that like you're asking him for empathy, you know, and then it is about empathy, not morality. And I just want us to be like really clear on that. And she was like, I'm talking to the principal. I was like, yes, ma'am, they are. She like she stick to her. She stuck to her guns. And I think more power to her. Yeah. And I think that the children and the young adults that are coming up, things that we said were, you know, Negro is the word that.

We might say randomly playing one of our friends. Right. They're not doing that. No. She's like, now he's saying the N word. And I don't know if I like that better or worse. Like, what can he say? Just tell me. She wanted the disclaimer. She does. She does. She does. She's like, I'm about to say there's some words in this book that we do no longer should say. She wants the whole thing.

I'm not mad at her. I agree. That is the best in class, right? Yeah. We and our parents, my mom would have looked at me like I was crazy if I had her go into that white suburban public school in Missouri. There's no way.

But I think it speaks to your point, though, that they are really, you know, they're really convinced about where those lines are and they don't mind speaking up about them. When you're raising your daughter, how much of what you experience will you model for her and where are you going to push the envelope a little bit? So I'm having a son. Oh, your son. Territory. OK. Oh, goodness. OK. That's like a totally different story.

Yeah. OK. I wanted a boy. So I'm grateful that God gave me what I requested from him. But I am already hyper conscious of the fact that I live in a red state in Tennessee. Yeah. And as a wealthy family relative to Tennessee, I am worried about his experiences and exposure within Tennessee.

the state that I chose to live in to the point where I'm like, I don't know that we'll actually wind up sending him to big boy school here. No, I don't know. I just don't trust it. Um, people are really biased and I just think that he might not have the full opportunities to leapfrog myself and his father, you know, like he's going to grow up

Not with his mom making his Halloween costumes. Yeah. Yeah. She knows how to buy them though. She will get them sponsored. More importantly, not even bought. Say cheese. Yes. Gifted. But like, so I just don't know how to handle that because this is our first generation in our family where our opportunities and our privilege are limited.

already exceeding kind of where my own parents are. I'm curious, actually, from your perspective, I feel like your family is incredible, multiple generations. How have you navigated your children being humble and knowing what hard work is? And, you know, it's not just normal for mom and dad to go to Italy every summer. Right, right. But maybe it is. Right, but maybe it is. Um,

I try to remind them often when they say things that I think would be, when they complain about what would be someone else's blessing, I try to be intentional about letting them know, not in a like there's kids starving somewhere mentality. I just want you to know that like what you just said is a privilege.

to be able to say that when they came to clean today, they didn't get underneath my bed. You know what I mean? Like they could have not cleaned it at all. Like you should have been cleaning it yourself. Like just reminding them of how different their life is compared to most people. I think we've done a really good job of not just having them socialize with people who have similar experiences, but people with diverse experiences.

Whereas I think part of upward mobility would suggest that we make sure that they're in specific debutante programs and they're at this technology club. And though I think those are great, I think there's something to be said about them being at the Boys and Girls Club, at the YMCA, balancing this reality. And when they're young, they...

They can make friends with anyone. They learn that very easily. Like I got friends here, I got friends there. And it teaches them to be respectful of different people's lives and environments. But then when they get older, they're able to pull, they're able to see the disparity for themselves and to really live in the consciousness of how much of a blessing it is. So my son was about...

And I put him in like he was in theater camp and then we would take nice vacations. But he was probably 16 or 17 when he was like, "Mom, our life really is different. And I don't really know which group I am most like." And I told him, "You're like both of them and like neither of them and you need that."

And so I think exposure is everything. And I think especially when you've come from, you know, like I was born on food stamps. My parents definitely pulled up by the bootstraps. But I think we have this inclination then to like we are going to Italy every summer and you are going to learn three languages and you are, you know what I mean? We want to.

equip them with as many tools as possible so that they can exceed or at least be equal to many of the people that they are going to be in relationship with, especially in their schools and stuff. But I think also making sure that we give them the broad worldview of

not like even in a charity way, but just in a real human nature sense of like what it means to find joy and happiness and all of these different types of life. I think it's really important. The younger you can do it, the better before they have their own bias or before someone projects it onto them. Yeah, I think that's good advice. I mean, I'm thinking about do we want to live abroad in another country?

because I think American culture just lends itself to just more, more, more, you know, bigger, bigger, bigger, very show-offy. I've been spending a lot of time in Costa Rica. My partner and my dad are in Nigeria right now for a few weeks. So I'm like, I don't know. It's one of those things that I'll have to learn as I go. I'm sure I'll make mistakes. Yeah.

It was my first time going to Italy when I went for my birthday this summer. And this is going to sound maybe ignorant, but like, because I, I mean, like I've been to Mexico, I've been to the Caribbean, you know, but I've never, I've been to London, but because they're still speaking English, like it doesn't really feel like you are somewhere else. When I went to Italy, like to see people who look like,

regular white people I went to school with speaking Russian, speaking Ukraine. I was like, oh my gosh, I forgot. Like, it's not just us over here. America really is such an island. Such an island. And like, it's not necessarily better over here. No. I mean, Italian way of life is so chill. Like,

Coffee and go for walks walk everywhere and organic like I went to Italy this summer this past summer and I

I'm pregnant and I feel like I lost weight. Wow. Because the food, like it's different. And I ate pasta every single day and I was not bloated. I didn't come home feeling sick and I did not gain any weight. That's right. And you probably walked so many more steps than you would, you know, being at home. So, yeah, it's just I think that worldly point of view is something that I'm looking forward to.

into my son's life more so than it was, you know, in my life at a younger age. Okay. I want to ask you a relationship question and I'm going to use my 13 year old daughter as an example again, because sis is like, I call her a bootleg feminist because she's like playing football with the

boys, but like, she also does not want that check split. She's like, when I go on a date, like mom, I just want you to know, like, I'm not that much of an independent woman. I still want him to pick up the check. When you think about the future of females, the future of women and what's possible now because of women like you and because of voices that have really made it

obvious that the voice of a woman changes things, but also the reality that many of the women who blaze those trails are entering their soft girl era and they want to balance. They want to be able to be vulnerable. What do you think about the next generation of women's responsibility

responsibility or the woods that they're going to have to navigate as it relates to identity and not being boxed into either version of what it means to be a woman? Good question. I think I've struggled with this on my own, just trying to figure out what I wanted to do and how much of societal norms I was going to adopt. So I'm struggling with it right now because I'm not married.

And I'm pregnant. Yeah. So, but I'm also very successful. So it's a really interesting thing. I had a lot of peace about it. There was a choice, actually. We chose to do this now versus later. And I didn't second guess it until I started interacting with like family members. Like even my own brother was like, so when is he going to like propose? And I was like, oh, are you concerned for me? Like, are you worried? Right.

you know, at first I was annoyed. It's about big brother. But then I like had a compassionate mindset and said, Oh, I think he's concerned. And he was, you know, he's like, he's lucky to marry you. But like, is he? I was like, yeah, we're good. Like everything's fine. You know? And so I think that, um,

My hope is that the next generation of women never have to doubt themselves and the choices that they're making and that the choices they're making freely. I have had to work back through like grounding myself and be like, no, I'm good. Like I'm not going to project the pressure from people in my family or people on the internet into my own relationship, which I'm very happy about and happy about what we're doing.

But it hasn't been easy. So my hope is that for the younger generation, they don't have to worry about that, that they can really feel free to do what they feel is best. And I think feminism is about whatever you want to do, you can do. So if you want to play with the boys, you

And have him pay for dinner. That's fine. More power to you. You know, and even when I think about our generation and some of our peers, there's a lot of incredible women that I know want to have children and are getting, you know, 35 plus because they spend a lot of time building these powerful empires and growing their careers, but they can't find the right match for themselves. And they're currently struggling with, do I have a child on my own?

Do I lower my standards? And I think a lot of the, if society didn't view women who choose to have a baby on their own a certain way, I think a lot more women in our peer groups would have already been had babies and had children and built their own family dynamics. Yeah.

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Again, zapdop.com slash womanevolve. Again, zapdop.com slash womanevolve. Tell them we sent you. What do you think it is about marriage versus starting a family? Is it the... Well, someone told me there's pee in the dating pool. So...

I can confirm that it's true. I did hear that. I can say it's been about 10 years since I was in there, but I did see some yellow floating around, but I wasn't sure. But it sounds like we have confirmed there is a little urination in this ankle. But what do you think it says about marriage that, you know, we're willing to start families without it?

You got me on a Christian podcast talking about marriage. It's 50-50. Some of them like dipping their toe in the water trying to figure out if they trust it or not. Other people are like kojic and they just gonna throw some oil on their phone and mess it up. Everything's gonna be fine. Let me add my disclaimers.

I went to an all-girls Catholic school. I'm Episcopalian, and I have been listening to you since I lived in L.A. and went to one church. Okay, there it is. All right, foundation, foundation. Okay, so I think that marriage is...

construct that was taken advantage of by men and institutions to control women. And I think that we are breaking out of the control from those institutions and the patriarchy in terms of the expectations of a married woman versus a woman in relationship who's not married. Yeah.

That's my perspective. You kept it short. You kept it sweet. It was good. But for real, right? Like I'll give you an example. People are talking about girl dinners on TikToks. That was like a big trend this summer. And of course, all of the TikTok philosophy kind of feminist women are like, see, if we didn't have this mental labor thing,

Right.

I agree with that. I can see what you are saying. Let me get my, let me start dancing, right? Let me, no, I agree.

I think even for communities of faith, they have made a woman's value come down to basically, is she married? Like, I cannot say that within churches, even as young girls, you know, outside of like finding your purpose and maximizing your gifts and your talents and using it as a reflection of God's image on the earth. It's like phenomenal.

find your husband, don't have sex before marriage. And it makes everything about a woman's body, her sexuality, and ultimately it's responsibility to her husband. And so I understand what you are saying.

I guess. And then that's just Christian within this Christian ecosphere, right? That doesn't include just this Disney ecosphere of finding Prince charming. And so there is a lot of pressure on womanhood to find marriage in a way that should complete her picture. But there, there are elements of control and I do, I see it as I can see it. I'm using words like Morgan. I can see it as a construct for some women,

Act like y'all don't hear some when y'all write this letter. Not for everyone. Act like y'all don't see this ring when you hear some. Okay. And I do think that there is a desire to really experience liberation and

And I think if you can be liberated and experience love, which I have, then I think that that is more appealing than the idea of the responsibilities that come with it. I think that's beautifully said. And I aspire to be married. I wanted to be a wife. You know, that was a choice that I also made even after talking to my league and doing some of my own healing and readings and prayers. It's like, OK, yeah, I do. I do want to be a wife and making an intentional decision to pursue that marriage.

And I see my parents now as they're aging and I see my partner's parents now who have also been in relationship and married since they were, you know, in their early twenties. And I'm like, yeah, this is the right move. You know, it's more than just this phase of creating life and this initial foundation. It's like, you know, they're sixties going in seventies and it's just a different, um,

type of love and dynamic that I aspire to. I mean, I won't be working forever. Yeah. You know? Um, so that was really what said, took me over the edge to say, yeah, you know, I think, I think I want to be a wife. I think I'd, yeah, let's do it. How long have your parents been married?

I'm 33, so 36 years. Yeah. My parents have been married 41 years and seeing them survive is

The ups, the downs, the chaos, the joy has been, I see that as a privilege because I don't have a lot of friends whose parents are still together or were ever together. And so I see it as a privilege to walk into a house and to have both of my parents there. Like, I don't take that for granted. And my dad says that when we got married, we thought that we were building a life together. And now that we're in our 60s, we know that we're dying together.

What are you saying? What are you talking about? But that's so sweet. In that, you know, like, what is that? Not like PT, I want us to live, but look at us. We dying together. Look at us. You step right up here. He's probably like, okay, you're taking a little fall. But I think there's, but, you know,

They had all the right things. You know what I mean? It wasn't, they didn't go into it with BS. They didn't, you know what I mean? They didn't go through, I'm divorced, right? So I don't think that you just stay together so that you can one day say we're dying together because you might be dying together staying with that person. So I do think that when done well, when done from a place of openness, empathy, and wholeness,

that beauty is a unique partnership between two individuals who get to experience God's love through the person they're building a life with. I agree 100%. And I think the legal marriage or the spiritual marriage, however the future generations want to decide what it looks like, for us, it's the traditional marriage definition. But I think in the future, it might look different. That's okay. Yeah.

Yeah, that makes me hopeful. I tell you one thing that I do. So you're going to have a task, right? Because my task as I am raising my daughters is like whenever they're like one day when I get married, one day when I have a baby, I want to play with baby dolls and I'm like buying them briefcases because I'm like, sis, I just want you to know, like I'm constantly trying to like get my, you know, some law books and like let's branch this out a little bit. But like your role as a mom and raising a son that is like,

not complicit with patriarchy. Have you thought at all about... I've thought about it a lot. Okay, what are you thinking? I am thinking about a few things. One, what is his relationship with his mother going to be? Who will I be as his mother? What should be a woman who is...

not dazzled or dazzled by anything superficial, you know, someone that holds him accountable to his values and there are shared values as a family unit. He will have the privilege of having a mother who, um,

is relatively powerful, you know, and I think that he will, I will have to lead by example on how to use your power and your privilege and your platform for good. And that means bringing everybody along with you, not just the ones, the people that are convenient. You know, I have been hurt by the boys club many times and I do not want my son to

To do that. At the same time, I have to go through my own therapy. I was actually thinking about I need a new type of therapist because I'm sure there's things that I don't like about men or I don't like about how I grew up as relates to how boys treated me or how men treated me differently that I want to make sure that I'm not implicitly

Putting on him. Right. Yeah. So I just, you know, first things first is getting birth. Yeah. Let's just start there. We will do the brainwashing once he gets here. But I'm open for I'm open to feedback and advice. Like, I mean, books, places, things. I mean, we're thinking about his name and even just like he should have a gender neutral name or like, should we?

Treat him in the same way that I would have the same intentionality of raising a daughter. Yeah. And I think the answer is yes. I agree. I totally agree. I will say, honestly, parenting is.

the most exhausting thing you've ever done. And I don't even mean the newborn stage of it. Like, I hated it. When my kids were young, my mom would be like, this is the easy part. This is the easy part. And now that they are, you know, teenagers, adults, like my son is 20, PT and I are blending a family. The oldest is 27. I recognize that trying to help

clear the lens of their perspective about themselves, about the world, and to hope that you're doing it right without

you know, projecting your stuff like it's all a crapshoot. And I've just learned to apologize with my seven year old. I've done a lot of work of trying to give her the vocabulary, emotional vocabulary that I didn't have then to not devalue her stress and her experiences. And yet I still have days where I'm tired. I still have days where I get annoyed and then I have to go and apologize, which my parents would have never done. Like I'll

apologize do you have a roof over your head what am I apologizing for I don't think I had an apology until I was about 27 yeah no it's a thing like now my dad says he's soft parenting which I'm like that's not what it's called so you're not doing a good job at that I'm there for him making up his own terminology but be patient with yourself and just remember you can edit you can edit

You can edit. There is nothing that you have to be married to and there's nothing that you can't go and rewrite, especially when they're young kids because...

I would say even adult children, when you think about people who have had difficult relationships with their parents and they're like, if that person just got it, it would heal everything. There's no damage that has been done that cannot be edited with empathy, compassion, and a real desire to listen to the other person's experience. I receive that. And pray. Thank you. This was great. This went by so fast. Yeah, so fun.

One thing that I have taken away from this conversation that I hope you take away as well is that our actions of today definitely hold the power to shape the legacy we aim to leave. Morgan, you are the ultimate. I called you a girl boss. You are a boss, babe. And I cannot thank you enough for the knowledge you poured into myself, into the women connected to this podcast.

Thank you for telling your truth, no matter how normal or abnormal it may be. We feel a little less alone because you opened up. Hear me when I say we honor the work that you are doing.

If you're listening to this podcast, I want you to know that we honor the work that you're doing too. Though we may not know all of the nuances connected with you being who you are, I want you to know that you matter, not just to us, but to the generation that is coming up after you as well. Continue to blaze that trail, trust your core, lean into God's truth and trust that you're the hope we've been looking for. I'll talk to you next week.

What's good? It's Colleen Witt and Eating While Broke is back for season three. Brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network and iHeartRadio. We're serving up some real stories and life lessons from people like Van Lathan, DC Youngfly, Bone Thugs-N-Harmony, and many more.

They're sharing the dishes that got them through their struggles and the wisdom they gained along the way. We're cooking up something special, so tune in every Thursday. Listen to Eating While Broke on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Yo, it's Big Bank. Check out my podcast, Prospective with Bank, on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Each and every Monday, Prospective with Bank podcasts will feature individuals, all walks of life, who come together to share their unique perspective and engage in enlightened conversation. This podcast will explore all type of conversations from everyday people, your favorite celebrities. Every Monday, listen to Prospective with Bank on Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple

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Hi, I'm Katie Lowes. And I'm Guillermo Diaz. And we're the hosts of Unpacking the Toolbox, the Scandal Rewatch podcast where we're talking about all the best moments of the show. Mesmerizing. But also, we get to hang out with all of our old Scandal friends like Bellamy Young, Scott Foley, Tony Goldwyn, Debbie Allen, Kerry Washington. Well, suit up, gladiators. Grab your big old glass of wine and prepare yourselves for an even more behind-the-scenes Scandal.

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