Brother Bonding Gone Wrong | "Brothers" (S2E5) with special guest Caitlin Thompson
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On today's episode of That Was Us, we will be discussing Season 2, Episode 5, Brothers. Kate drops a bombshell on Toby, Kevin and Randall attend a charity fundraiser for Sophie's hospital, and Jack takes the boys on a camping trip, leaving Rebecca to deal with some unexpected news.

The holidays are just around the corner, and one of my favorite things is giving something truly meaningful to the people that I love most. Whether it's a custom photo book filled with family memories, personalized gifts for friends, or a holiday card that really stands out, Shutterfly has everything you need to make this season extra special.

This year, I'm especially excited about turning some of our new family photos featuring our sweet little girl Lou into keepsakes. I'm thinking about a framed canvas or maybe some sort of engraved ornament to capture these precious moments.

I know my family very well, and they will treasure these gifts forever, especially our parents. I can already picture the look on their faces when they see her cute little smile on a cozy fleece blanket or on a ceramic mug. And when I think of gifts this year, I always remind my friends, who are usually panic buying at the last minute, to be careful.

It's the meaningful moments that matter most. Shutterfly makes it so easy to turn your favorite memories into thoughtful, personalized gifts that are worth more than anything you can buy off the shelf.

With the Shutterfly app or website, you can quickly upload photos from your camera roll and design unique gifts from custom photo books to stocking stuffers like personalized ornaments or travel mugs, puzzles, magnets. Shutterfly has something for everyone. And if you're short on time, their 24-hour free designer service can create a beautiful photo book for you. Trust me, I have done this many times. It is the best gift.

There are so many amazing ways to find the perfect gift for your loved ones. I've already taken so many photos of Lou and her brothers that I could easily fill a whole calendar for the whole family. For Grandpa and Grandma, I'm thinking about a framed picture

print or maybe a fleece blanket with our favorite photo. It's just so easy to make an order thanks to Shutterfly. Explore gifts like blankets, mugs, photo books, and calendars at Shutterfly.com. All easy to customize in minutes with your favorite photos. Enjoy 40% off your Shutterfly order with code THATWASUS and make something meaningful this year. Get free shipping on all qualified orders. How's it going, everybody? Hello, hello. Hello, we're back.

We're back. Okay, so we've been off for a while. Yeah, there was a short maternity leave. A short maternity leave. So this is our first episode with Mandy Moore as the mother of three. Mandy Moore, how are you? I'm great, guys. I'm so happy to see your faces. I missed you. You look very bright-eyed and bushy-tailed to have a baby at the crib. Oh, you're so kind. Are you fooling us? Is this another example of the outstanding acting that is Mandy Moore? No.

I mean, I'm pretty tired, but I'm just, you've got to fake it until you make it. I heard that. We just have to keep throwing back to you so it keeps you engaged because if we get too engaged, you and I, we look over and she's like, forehead on the microphone. This is quite comfortable. Yeah, the couch. Too comfortable. I don't want to get

that comfortable. Yeah, we need to drop the temperature in here a little bit. But I got, yeah, I got the big three at home. I got my own little big three. Yeah. How have they taken to the baby? They're great. Her two older brothers? Yes. Yeah. They love her so much. They want to pet her a lot. Yeah. That's what they say. Can I pet baby sister? I'm like, she's not the dog, but yes, you can pet her. It's like, mind the soft spot, big dog. You can't go too far. Yeah. Yeah.

They still have that fuzz. Yeah. I'm so happy to be back with you guys and happy to have the excuse to jump back into watching the show. Yes. Wow. And we jump back in with a real dynamite episode. Both feet in. So this is entitled Brothers, right? And we're back with John and Glenn, directors of The Pilots, The Super Bowl, some really seminal episodes of the show. Yeah. And we're having a good time. And we're starting off in the past with...

with Jack is gonna take the boys on a camping trip. - Yes. - Yes. - Right? They've been sort of like at each other's throats a little bit and not even sort of at each other's throats. I would say that like Kev's feelings towards Randall are just like, I've kind of had enough. - They're really settling into their distaste for each other.

And less Randall for Kevin, obviously. It's really just like, it's deeply steeped in Kevin, though. He's so annoyed. You see a bit of Randall trying to figure out how to be with his brother. Yeah. But he is Randall, and he is a lot. I think it's important to say that Randall's not...

or anything like that. Like, Randall is a big personality and he kind of needs a lot of things. And sometimes Kev's like, "You're doing the most. And I need you to bring it down just a bit." Right?

So the girls are gonna have a day out with themselves. Yeah, like go get, do their nails, watch a movie. Have a great time. And you get a phone call from the, I don't, what is, what is- Nursing care facility. Care facility for Stanley Pearson. And it sounds like he's about to pass away. Yeah. And he's calling to find his son.

And you're like, "Oh, he's gone." So you send a message out to the woods saying that like, "Listen, I just heard your dad is not doing well. You may want to come see him, et cetera, but he's out there with his boys impervious." Do you guys remember growing up at a time now without cell phones where we were all like not reachable? Yeah, I do. Immediately and like having to leave messages on answering machines. Yeah, you called a ranger station and left a message on a reel-to-reel tape. That's true.

I called multiple times to a landline in the middle of the woods. I do sort of secretly long for that time. Yeah. Where you weren't immediately reachable all the time. But in this particular case, it would have been nice. Sure. Yeah. And something else that I clocked, the Wagoneer coming in. Like the Wagoneer has, has it made an appearance before? It has with the older kids, with the teens and stuff. But I feel like this is,

the first maybe introduction with like the younger kids or where it just, I clocked it in a way and I was like, oh wow. Yeah. Like where this is, it becomes such a family member now. For sure. Like it was in the Thanksgiving episode. It was. Yes, yes, yes. But it's like, oh, this is, this is the family car. There's like a comfort to seeing that car and what it sort of signifies for the family as well as like,

again, clocking the house with the Pearsons and the sort of shift, the change of houses that we had. It might have not been the first appearance necessarily, but it was something that I was like, oh yeah, this house is, yeah, it was just a real marker in time for me. So we go to the campground with the boys before obviously Jack has been

made aware of his father because eventually a ranger does find them and tells them, your wife is looking for you and puts them on in contact via the, like...

What is it? Like his little like ranger thing is. Yeah, she's on the phone and someone's holding a radio up to the phone. Correct. And he's talking into the radio. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the boys are just not having it. Kevin collapses the tent on Randall. He won't let go of his Game Boy. I mean, it's just. I mean, I think like Jack says something about like, why is this funny to you? Or like, is that funny to you? And he goes, if I said yes, would you be mad? Yeah.

He said, "You be good to your brother." Like he sort of says this message over and over again. Like you should be good to your brother. It would be so easy for you to just be nice to him, right? And at one point, and 'cause this will tie into Kev's story, they're in the tent and he's like, "Why aren't you doing it?" And he's like, "I don't know."

He's like, "You gotta have a reason. There's no reason for you to be mean to me." I was like, "I don't know." And he said, "You made me go into the tent, and so I went into the tent. You didn't say I have to talk about it. So can I just stay here in the tent?" And Jack was like, "Fine." But it was just sort of setting up this sort of idea that Kev doesn't process things. - Doesn't know what he's feeling, doesn't know how to feel. - Right. - Doesn't know why. - Doesn't know how to express it. - Yeah. - Yes. - Which is why a lot of us get into acting.

And Kev in particular, you know what I'm saying? He's an actor. No joke. I was telling Rachel the other day, I'm like, I think originally I got into acting because I didn't know what any emotions looked like. And I was like, I'm gonna go try these on and see how they feel. Wow. Yeah. Like a 14, 15-year-old trying on all these basic emotions.

- Yeah. - Wow. - That's amazing. - I love that. - That's amazing. So then there's this moment that happens because he told him to be off his Game Boy, but of course he just goes back to the Game Boy. And then later on, well, I should say first, I think you do reach Jack, right? - Yeah. - Yeah, you- - We do via the walkie talkie, the radio from the ranger, yeah. - And Milo Ventimiglia, I think just with like, his listening was really,

You got this sense of like so much was going on inside of him

And he didn't say very much. Yeah. Right? And you're like, Jack, I think he's going to go and everything. Do you want to come? Or do you want me to say anything to him? You've called him after you've already gone to the facility. Yes. And this is a big reveal. Yes. For Jack's dad. Yes. That Jack has a wife and a family. Right. So it was also a big reveal for Jack that you have now met.

His father. Right. Yeah. There's even more. I should do both of those things parallel. You're absolutely right. Because you go to say hi to Stanley or whatever, like I'm Jack's wife or whatnot. And he clocks Kate and says, is that my granddaughter? Yeah. Right? And you're like, oh, I didn't know she was in here or what have you. Because he's clearly not doing well. And then so you fast forward to that moment of like, do you want me to tell him anything? And he's just like...

-You see the wheels turning. - The wheels are turning hard. Like, he was doing some active thinking. This is, again, to your point of this analog world of landlines, no internet, no Facebook, where,

where a man can grow old and end up on his deathbed having no reference as to what his son has been up to for the last... Yeah, what his life looks like. ...eight to ten years. Right. Like, no way to check in, no way to, like, you know, face...

Social media and things. There's no communication, of course. And you could do that. You could literally. And ostensibly, he could have passed away without ever being in touch with his son ever again and knowing that he had a family. It just so happened that I guess maybe he was an emergency contact or something that he was able to be reached to some degree. Which is what Jack says. That man has been dead to me for a long time. Yeah.

It's fascinating because it's like, I feel like Rebecca has a working knowledge of their relationship being complicated and Stanley being emotionally abusive and physically abusive to Jack's mom and that sort of framework. But again, Jack being a man of a different generation, I feel like there's so much that's kept sort of secret close to the vest. Yeah.

it's just even alluded to in him saying so little in response to, do you want me to tell him anything? And him just saying, no, like he's been dead a long time. Like there's not a lot of elaborating. So I, I just was curious as, as Rebecca, like in that scene, I'm like, how much does she really know about them and about their relationship and what happened? And cause to me it was just, I sort of had to operate under the guise of like Jack that

that was sort of a no-fly zone. Like, I don't talk about my dad. I know he, like, lives in town, but I have nothing to do with him. He's, like, we don't really go there. So here's my question to you as an actor that I was curious about. What do you think it was in Rebecca that made her show up in his stead? Like, what was the sense of responsibility, curiosity, da-da-da-da-da, that went into it? All of that. I think responsibility, curiosity, being...

you know, sort of the stand in for Jack, like someone should like, if someone is passing away, like I, I think she just was sort of like, this is the obligation. This is what you do. And Jack's not here. And I would, I don't want to make the wrong choice. And so it seems like, it seems like the easiest decision to go there to sort of suss out the situation, see what's what, you know, um, and, and report back to him or try to get in touch with him to let him know what was going on. It, it,

I think it felt worse to sort of just let the situation wither without taking action. Yeah, yeah. Hot take, who in your life has been dead to you for a long time? Hot take. Hot take, anyone? Any takers? Any takers want to put that on a podcast? No? Stay away from that one.

No? Sorry, internet, I tried. That's the only note I had on this episode. Wait. Moving forward, you dummies. There is, we see this moment of Kev in the tent and he finds Randall's journal because Randall's always writing stuff down, et cetera. And in Randall's journal, he says like,

I can't remember the specifics, but like, try not to ask Kevin too many questions, right? -Heartbreaking. -Heartbreaking. It makes me emotional to think about it. Like, Randall just wanted to connect. He was trying his level best to be everything his brother needed and not be too much. It's like he had this-- He has knowledge of his being the most. Exactly. He had an awareness of it. And it just, like, still to be nine or ten or however old he was and--

And to write that down. This type of heartbreak is already happening in Forbear. And I came home last night late. And this morning I was looking around and I saw this little scrap of paper. And it's the first handwritten note. Oh.

that he has written himself. And it's a happy birthday message to a friend in his class with a bunch of candles. And I could barely make out happy birthday. It's a four-year-old. But it's a thing. I was like, oh, this is a thing. It was left here for a reason. And this little girl didn't want it.

Didn't want it. And she has formed a little girl squad, which is natural. It's a natural developmental thing of like, you know, whatever it is. And poor Bear, all he wants is to be a part of the girl squad. And Rachel was relating to me like he was really, really sad about it. I can't. And I'm just like...

How long does, this is gonna go on for a long time. Yeah. This heartbreak, 'cause Bear's probably already over it. And now I'm talking about it on the podcast. We take it on. You're absorbing it. Sure, sure, sure. I'm about to cry. There are moments for me of being the most sometimes. My son, my oldest son told Ryan and I on our podcast that like, you know, it's hard being around people who always wanna be the center of attention. I just, I listened to that. I just listened to that episode.

Andrew said that? Yeah. They interviewed the boys on the podcast. The podcast is called We Don't Always Agree. It is fantastic. And it is the real deal. Oh, I can't wait to hear this. I'm listening to it. I'm like, hey. And at one point, even Rye says to you, Sterling, you can be a lot. Yeah.

- That's the pot calling the kettle right there. - And sometimes I just need some spit. And so, yeah, that's an interesting parallel. - And so there's these moments with Andrew, like we're teenage boys, 13, and you're always trying to find these moments to connect and how's life, what's going on? Da, da, da, da. Cool, you know, whatever. I found the hot take for you guys, for all parents, when your kids become physically active after exertion, something opens up. - Oh, yeah.

- Oh yeah. - And they'll just like, you just get close and be like, "So what was that? Oh wow, tell me." And they'll just let it go. - Go, go, go. - And so you have to learn a little bit of patience of like, before they'll be sort of tight-lipped and then let's run 'em around real quick. And then all of a sudden they'll talk. - Oh, I love that. - It's nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

thinking about this episode and brothers and you have two boys. Yes. I have two boys but they're much younger and so we haven't haven't quite seen this sort of behavior yet. But do you do they have that sort of like camaraderie and like do you notice the sort of I guess like can you relate to like what Kevin and Randall or even though they're

five years apart. It's similar, but different because the power dynamic of Kevin and Randall being sort of the same age and sort of who is next in line is always sort of the dynamic in that relationship as well. They're always jostling for that. Andrew knows who's next in line and so does Amari and they have respect for that hierarchy and whatnot. It's just there are times in which they...

love each other in a way that is recognizable to society at large as loving. And then there's ways in which they love each other that are not as recognizable. Sure. You recognize it. I recognize it. Absolutely. And part of it is just

Big brothers do stuff to little brothers. It's part of it. Yeah. And Kevin is the big brother, more or less. He is the big brother in this particular relationship. Absolutely. And I think that that power dynamic was established long ago and it's the way that it is for the entirety of their lives. So, okay. So the interesting thing about this episode is it's one of the... We do it a few times time-wise, but we have another step back in time

yeah to young jack that's right right um because we we sort of see the boys in the end nestled in their their dad's arms and they're howling at the moon and they're having a good time and you see they've they're reaching some sort of connectivity activity so flashback to young jack and i i want to know this young boy's name because he's the cutest

So-and-so and the whole the kid playing young Jack over doors. He's adorable Yeah, as soon as I see that kid on the face. I was like I buy that Just you just can be yeah, so he's in the car with his dad and they're about to go fishing Looking forward to this fishing trip is dad ask. Are you thirsty? He goes no He's like just kind of wanna you know, let's go fish do it. It's like well I am so he pulled in and

And there's a sort of recognition on young Jack. He's like, hmm, I don't know if we're going to leave this spot because he pulls into a bar, whatnot, grabs himself a beer. And then we push forward in the episode and you just hear him saying to himself, please come back.

Please, is it please come back, please come out? You know, just like, come on out. And you just see dad, Stanley sitting there at the bar, having his beers impervious to the fact that he's got his kid in the car with him. Right? And I say kid, because up until that point, and this was one, this was a moment for me where I was like- - A big reveal.

oh i forgot yeah right yeah where we find out that jack's little brother is in the back of the car having taken a nap yeah and he wakes up and he wakes up he goes it's okay nikki i got you you know what i'm saying i'm not going anywhere i'm not going anywhere and you're like oh i thought it was about kev and and randall right but then we go back to

the storyline and we see Jack taking a box out of the closet, what have you. And he's looking through photographs and he sees a picture from Vietnam and you see him, young Jack, you know, with his hat on or whatnot. And you see somebody with glasses on sitting down next to him. - Same style of glasses as the kid in the car. - Same style of glasses as the kid in the car. And on his name tag, we see the word Pearson. And you're like,

this dude has a brother that you took 23 episodes to tell us about? - Yeah. - I was like, when Fogerman like sort of pitches us to the beginning of the season or whatnot, and then you remember today it was like, and so Jack has a brother. I was like, how you gonna pull this off, dog? He got a brother that we ain't never seen. And then he does it and you're like, you son of a gun. - Did it again. - Yeah. - He did it again. A character who is with us for the rest of the show. - That's right.

-Aim Griffin Dunn. -Michael Angarano. -Michael Angarano, yeah. -And of course, neither one of them have been cast yet. -No. -So the man in the photo... -Yeah, his head is down. -...is neither of them. Yeah, and doesn't really look like anybody, but he's got his head down enough with his glasses. But it also sort of introduces this thing about Jack and about... -Secrets. -Secrets. And about what being a brother

means or should or should, should, you know, so that his investment in his two boys obviously has some sort of parallel to him and his own life. Absolutely. Because like you said, we're 23 episodes into the show. Yeah.

"Brother has never been uttered. We've never met him before." Clearly, they're not in each other's lives or not in any meaningful way. So what does that look like? Where is he? Yeah, lots of questions arise. Lots of questions. It's just, it's another, it's an amazing thing that this show does about every decision that we make, every stance that we take.

is a culmination of everything that has happened to us up to this moment. And the way that Dan kind of retroactively reveals

why, you know, Jack has a certain stance on something or why Jack is doing something this way instead of that way. Or how Jack came to drink too much. You know what I mean? Whatever the quote-unquote trauma is. - You're absolutely right. - It's just beautiful to watch unfold. We'll be right back with more That Was Us.

The holidays are just around the corner, and one of my favorite things is giving something truly meaningful to the people that I love most. Whether it's a custom photo book filled with family memories, personalized gifts for friends, or a holiday card that really stands out, Shutterfly has everything you need to make this season extra special.

This year, I'm especially excited about turning some of our new family photos featuring our sweet little girl Lou into keepsakes. I'm thinking about a framed canvas or maybe some sort of engraved ornament to capture these precious moments.

I know my family very well, and they will treasure these gifts forever, especially our parents. I can already picture the look on their faces when they see her cute little smile on a cozy fleece blanket or on a ceramic mug. And when I think of gifts this year, I always remind my friends, who are usually panic buying at the last minute, to buy me a gift.

It's the meaningful moments that matter most. Shutterfly makes it so easy to turn your favorite memories into thoughtful, personalized gifts that are worth more than anything you can buy off the shelf.

With the Shutterfly app or website, you can quickly upload photos from your camera roll and design unique gifts from custom photo books to stocking stuffers like personalized ornaments or travel mugs, puzzles, magnets. Shutterfly has something for everyone. And if you're short on time, their 24-hour free designer service can create a beautiful photo book for you. Trust me, I have done this many times. It is the best gift.

There are so many amazing ways to find the perfect gift for your loved ones. I've already taken so many photos of Lou and her brothers that I could easily fill a whole calendar for the whole family. For Grandpa and Grandma, I'm thinking about a framed picture

print or maybe a fleece blanket with our favorite photo it's just so easy to make an order thanks to shutterfly explore gifts like blankets mugs photo books and calendars at shutterfly.com all easy to customize in minutes with your favorite photos enjoy 40 off your shutterfly order with code that was us and make something meaningful this year get free shipping on all qualified orders

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I completely agree. Like if there are times in which I need to train for a film, there's these boot camps that kick my butt up and down. If I just want to relax a little bit, there's a wonderful meditation, yoga, whatever you need, Peloton has it. I love that even if you have 10, 15, 20 minutes or something, you can get an incredible workout in. You can get on the bike, on the tread, you could do a floor workout. Like it sort of covers the gambit and Peloton

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Peloton offers the flexibility to fit into any schedule, any season. Now imagine Randall squeezing in a quick yoga session to manage stress. It's all there on Peloton, ready to adapt to whatever phase you're navigating. The Pearson schedule was always packed?

with the big threes activities. So whether you're reminiscing about the pre-kids sports meditation era or you're in a full parent on the go mode, Peloton has the classes and support to keep you moving forward. Take some time for yourself. Again, whether it's 10, 20, 45 minutes and explore everything you've ever wanted to try. It's all at your fingertips.

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There, there's two little things that I just want to mention. Um, I, cause I, I feel like it's something that people took from this particular scene. It's something that's mentioned later on in, in the, the course of the show, but just when Rebecca is talking about parenthood to Kate and, and tells her that it's, it's like being a mom, being a parent is like a front row seat to the best show on earth. Yeah. Being a parent and like, still like very newly, like postpartum, I was just like, Oh my

Oh my God, that's so true. But it's something that's echoed later on in the show. And I just, you know, it kind of reminds me a little bit of the like, there's no lemon sour enough that you can't make something resembling lemonade. And Rebecca telling Jack that she's a miracle after meeting Stanley. Like you are a miracle that like you came from this man. You came, this life that was given to you that somehow you were this husband and father now is just like beyond miraculous. I loved that sort of like,

that Rebecca was able to clock that and take that away from this experience and to be able to, you know, tell your person that is a really beautiful thing. It's pretty remarkable. I mean, I think, you know, we are who we are in large part because

either because of or in sort of reaction to who our parents are. There's things that you want to emulate and you're like, there's things that you want to get as far away from as possible. And as parents, I'm sure we're all like, I hope they like most of me. You know what I'm saying? They may not like all of me or what have you, but hopefully when they can look back, this is like, oh, you know, I wanted to be closer to than further away from. You know what I'm saying? And Jack did not.

have that experience with his dad. - But he wanted to be that for his kids so desperately and he was, I think they both were, absolutely. - Yeah. Okay, so let's go to present day. - Yes. - With the same brothers. - We can go to the same brothers because we're at Randall's house. We come up on Kev who is in the bathroom looking through the medicine cabinet. - Searching for pills. - Looking for pills. - Yeah, this is the first episode where Kevin starts to look a little gray.

starts to look a little dark under the eyes a little shiny you know what i'm saying and uh he comes out of the bathroom and

And him and Randall have a delightful little conversation. I love Justin Hartley. I love everything about this dude. He has re-injured his knee. He's re-injured his knee. Which at this point, we have or have not... No, we have not yet seen the origination of the knee injury. Yes, we don't know about the football accident yet. But we know that on the Ron Howard film, he has now blown up his knee. He's blown up his knee.

reinvestigated painkillers. - Exactly. - Yes. Anything to get through to finish the movie and keep moving forward in life. - I gotta say, this storyline, and we'll do it like, just, this is like my quick PSA. - Yeah. - All three of us here have been privileged enough to be nominated for an Emmy, right? And then Ron and Milo and Chrissy,

Gerald McCraney. Gerald McCraney, right? So we got a lot of recognition and whatnot. Two people who I feel like could have and did not, right? Yeah. Susan Kolechi-Watson, Justin Hartley. Yes. Absolutely. What Justin Hartley does in this arc leading up to his episode is extraordinary. Yeah.

Period. Period. Period. Yes. I mean, we were talking earlier today about future episodes, a couple moving forward in the season, his particular episode, episode one, number one or whatever. But yes, you're right. This arc that Justin is taking us on as Kevin Pearson right now is just, it's flat out extraordinary. It's extraordinary. Okay, so wait, we got to condense because I feel like we've waxed poetically for a while now.

So they're going to go, Kev's going to go to this gala for Sophie, where he's going to be auctioned off as a fundraiser for the hospital, et cetera. And Randall is telling him, hey, be careful around Deja. You know, she's adjusting to a new environment. She's having a tough time, whatnot. Don't talk about her hair. Just sort of like keep things cool.

So he's like, yeah, cool. Kev goes downstairs. He plays teasingly with Deja. What's that? Takes a piece of bacon off her plate. She adores him. Yeah. Like he instantly is able to connect with her in a way that Randall's like. The too muchness of Randall. And the charm of Kevin. Right. At odds with each other completely. So he's talking about how he's got to go to the thing tonight. She's like, can I go?

And Randall's like, "Yeah, yeah, of course you can. Like, I'll take you." And he's like, "Do you think she should be going to this thing right now? Sort of fancy things?" Like, look, she's expressing interest. We got to jump on it while we can. Like, Randall's just completely and totally excited about this whole thing. He does this thing. Him and Beth have this great conversation. He's like, "Just be cool." He's like, "Yo, that's Randall 'Cool' Pearson. That's my middle name." She's like, "Oh Lord, you're gonna mess this all up." She's like, "Cool means normal." He's like, "No, it doesn't. Cool means cool." And so they go out.

You see him just talking to Deja, constantly just trying to find any thread of something to connect to. And she's like, "Bro, it's not about you right now. I'm trying to go see the Manny." - She loves the Manny. - We make it to the gala and you see Kev is still not his best self.

right now, but he's still very charming to Deja. She has a little bit of a look when he says, introduces her to his girlfriend and she's like, "Oh, she got a girlfriend. All right, all right. Let me readjust my expectations right now."

They go to the auction part and Sophie's very excitedly introducing Kev, who is nowhere to be found. Nowhere to be found. Throughout the episode, he's been on the phone, trying to connect with his doctor. I know I'm past my prescription allotment or whatnot, but if you could really help me out, that would be great. Trying to connect with past doctors to see if he can get something. You start to feel the real desperation. There's serious desperation that is setting in. And while that's happening,

Deja is sort of being exposed to new things and just sort of like having shrimp for the first time. By the way, in Lyric for the first time, like when she was eating the shrimp, she's like, oh, these shrimp is good. Really? She would be like, anytime we'd have breakfast or something and she's like, we got strawberries. Oh, these strawberries good. Yeah.

So she was eating the shrimp like it was like the jam, right? Which was perfect for the character. Then she tries to put the tail into her mouth and Randall's like, whoa, careful. You could choke on that, right? And she sort of flinches for the second time that we've seen since she's been in the house, right? And she gets up, goes to the bathroom. So again, we're sort of juxtaposing the moment

More than too muchness of Randall with like present day Randall trying to figure out how to proceed in this particular moment. Kev is unsuccessful in getting pills or whatnot, but they're both standing outside of the women's bathroom just looking at the door. Waiting for Deja to reemerge. Two weird dudes that should not be standing outside of the women's restroom. And he's like, I'm gonna go in there. He's like, I know.

And he says something about, Kev says to Randall, "You care too much. You always have. That's been your thing. And I don't care enough." And he's like, "I don't know if that's true." He's like, "Yeah, dude. Just something about me is just not working the way that it's supposed to." He's like, "Well, I'm gonna go in there." He's like, "There may be women pooping in there." I said, "I know."

So to Randall's credit, he walks there and he just stands outside of the stall that he knows she's in. She's like, "You're just gonna stand there the whole time?" He doesn't really say anything. He just listens, which I thought was a really cool move for the writers to have shown the learning

of somebody like, yes, I walked in, but I'm not gonna try to like force you into anything. I'm just going to be here. And she tells this story about these fashion magazines that this woman had because she was butt ugly. And this young lady is very funny when she's saying it, but like the magazines were a thing because her foster father could roll them up and they didn't leave a lot of marks. And that's why you can't grab me like that. And he just listens.

and then she gets out and they walk out of the bathroom, right? Yeah. He walks back into the ballroom and gets dressed down by Sophie. By Sophie. So you embarrassed me, right? And he talks about how I shouldn't have come. Like, I'm sorry, I wanted to be here for you, but I'm really just tired. And a couple of things that I noticed in this one, this is when...

His ease of lying is really sort of like, "Oh, he just lied just to keep the peace." - So seamlessly. - You know what I mean? And I was like, "Oh, that's not... That should cost you something to just not tell the truth to the person that you got back into your life." - And even when faced with the opportunity to correct things, opts out. - Yeah, and take accountability. He was like, "No, I'm just gonna take the easy way out." - So then let's get into a little bit of joy.

Because we need a little Katobi in our lives. And your arc starts off with her saying, "I have something to tell you," what have you. And you're wondering what it is that she's got to say or that. And she's, "I'm pregnant."

And Chris, your expression of joy of being a dad or whatnot is a true delight. You want to speak on it just a little bit? I need to back up just a little bit because there's an earlier moment of joy, a realization of a lifelong dream of getting to clear all of the things off my desk. Oh, please!

Oh, it's brilliant. It is. She said, you know, Kate shows up and says, Toby, I need to talk to you in your office. And he thinks they're about to have sex. So he walks in and just sweeps everything off the desk. It's like the actor's dream come true. And it was like, fine!

I have told Rachel, I have told Rachel for my 50th birthday, what I want, what I actually want is for her to set up a dinner for me and like a friend at like a nice restaurant. And I want to stage an altercation where I go, I'm out of here. And I just tip the, just wipe everything off the table. I thought you were going to say where you want to have sex with her in her bed.

That's better. No, Mandy, you're right. That's better. Clear the table so you can do what you want to do. Have sex with her in a restaurant. That's better. Why didn't I think of that? Oh, jeez.

- That is better. That is better. No, I just, if you ever get it, just set up, find, get some plastic stuff, put it on your kitchen table and then just sweep it off. - Sweep it off. - Wipe it off. - It's a hot take. - I got that sense as an actor. I was like, he's been waiting for this for some time. - When I saw that in the script, I was like four years of acting college.

I finally get to do it. All for this. All for today. Okay. So you cleared a table. Yes. But also, can we talk about the fact that we saw where Toby works? Yeah. He's at IT Solutions. I was like, oh, this is generic enough, but gives us some specificity. He works in IT, and apparently he's the boss. He was the boss. He's true and innocent. Yeah. They're like, we're going to have to justify these apartments they live in pretty quick here.

Because Kate's not working. How high up in the IT world is this guy? Okay, he has his own office. He can clear the desk. And he feels comfortable clearing a desk. That's the amount of money. He's making six figures. You said you wanted to talk. That's the way they do it. And all of the movies.

Adult entertainment fine cinema that I watch. Yeah, it's not that. I am, and she reveals that she is pregnant. Toby gets very, very excited, but is quickly, is quickly tamped down by her saying, okay,

Keep it to yourself. Yeah. He's like, uh, cricket? So this is interesting. And Mandy, you've just recently gone through having your third baby or whatnot. And we know that complications can arise, especially within the first trimester. So a lot of folks are told, until you make it to 13, you sort of just kind of keep it to yourself. That's right. You know what I'm saying? And hearing her express...

I remember 'cause we were 34 with the first one and 39 and like that term geriatric. Like, are we that old? I didn't know. And that's what it's called. Geriatric pregnancy. She's 37 years old, whatnot. She knows that she's a plus size woman and that any number of things could transpire. I don't need you getting too excited because if you get too excited, then you'll be too disappointed.

kind of keep it at a minimum until the child is here. - Yes. - You have experienced any of that at all? But probably different. - We didn't experience any of that. I will say Rachel and I did have a bit of a conflict over the pregnancy reveal. - Okay. - To me. - What happened? - Wait, tell. Do tell. - So it's now kind of a joke, so I can talk about it. - Okay, oh God, oh God. - But I found out,

that Rachel was pregnant with Bear the first time around via text message when she sent me a photo of the pregnancy test. And I was sitting on an airplane on the way to a convention or something, currently being talked at by an elderly man with white wine breath. Okay. Who was just like, so what do you do? And you're like looking at your phone. And it's like, ding! And I'm like, oh.

What do you mean a convention? What kind of convention are you going to? Just what just Pinot Grigio like wafting. I'm like, this is so exciting and the worst. I just wanted to be like, would you shut up? I just found out I'm going to be a dad.

I gotta dance up and down the aisle or to Hootie and the Blowfish or something. - Sure, sure. - Yeah, I had to get home and be like, "Yeah, I'm so excited. By the way, not the way to tell me." - Save it for in person. - At least. - I will say that there's something very interesting about your experience, Toby's I would say, and me, and I don't know if this is true,

because we as dudes, as soon as I found out, I was like overjoyed. - Yes. - Not thinking about that 13 weeks and the complications to go into, et cetera. - Sure, sure, sure. - And so like when Ryan's like, "Listen, I need you to keep it to yourself." And I'm like,

For real? Like, I want to tell the world. The world on a megaphone. The world. That was me too. Yeah, dudes have to like sort of bring it down. But then your bride-to-be in the show does something incredibly generous, right? You guys go, is it a coffee shop? She takes me to a coffee shop and says, okay, okay, fine. You can tell one person in here. Yeah, a stranger.

- A stranger because the stakes are so low, right? You're not telling your family or friends or other people that could potentially be disappointed. Exactly. It's a great plan actually. - And Toby walks up to the barista and not only says, "That's my guy," but asks him, "So can you put this song on please?" Because it's Toby's happy song. It also turns out to be kind of one of Sully's happy songs.

- You feel that in the performance. - The "Hoodie and the Blowfish" record was kind of a big deal for 12 year old, 13 year old Chris. I loved "Hoodie and the Blowfish." - I love you some Darius, absolutely. - Oh man, I got to meet Darius Rucker at like an award show. - Did you? - And it was another big deal for me. It was a big deal. - So, okay, this is my question acting wise was,

How much was improvised? How much fun room did you have to play? So this episode was directed by John and Glenn. There you go. Who were two of our veteran, maybe more mischievous directors. I would agree. Very mischievous. Yes. And these are the two directors that when we started season two told me, I don't know if they told anybody else, but they were like, just so you know, you guys are about to have a long run.

You know these characters. You do what you want to do. Great. Directors are going to come, but go ahead and stretch your legs. Yeah. And that's the wrong thing to tell Chris Sullivan. Because...

You're like, watch this. Because watch me stretch. And so I'm like, well, here's what's going to happen in this coffee shop then, John and Glenn. I'm going to push it too far and you tell me when to stop. Okay. The slow-mo of you on the pole. It was... The flash dance. Yeah. The flash dance.

Yeah, that was it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was, was that you in the moment? Yeah, yeah. This was like, all right, let's do it. Let's turn this music on. And I was like, oh, look at this. What about this bucket of water? Anybody? It's like, we'll do it last. We'll do it last. So you at least had to wait, of course. And sound came and took my mic and took all the electrical things off of me. And then I dumped the water over my head. And that was, that was a wrap for the day. It was absolutely amazing.

It was joyful. It was joyful. And I've had moments like that. I've definitely been up on a tabletop in a college cafeteria dancing and singing. I love it. Oh, wait, okay. I just realized because what led to her

was what led to her sharing this information, Kate sharing this information, was the OA meeting? - Yeah. - That's this episode, right? - Yes. - Thank you guys. Okay. - 'Cause that brings us to our special guest. - That does bring us to our special guest. So in the OA meeting, we hear from Madison. - Yes. - Okay, I'm laughing for two reasons. First of all, Caitlin is so damn funny. - She is. - In her delivery of what's going on in her life.

And Chrissy/Kate is so disgusted by everything coming out of her mouth. Whenever Kate is listening to Kaitlyn, no, to Madison. Yes.

is when you really see Chrissy's Florida come out. Yeah. She has Florida face. She has Florida face. And it's when she really gets, really gets sass. She really does. Yeah. I love it. She's like, oh, wait a minute, Madison. Are you like a handsome guy like took you somewhere and you had to smoke a cigarette and all this stuff? Her head kind of gets going. Woo!

Her arm gets up. Yeah. There's like a look in her eye. Yes. So they take that out into the parking lot where it continues. I want to remember. I think I have so many parts. They kind of say their piece to each other. They say their piece. The ironic part is that we understand Kate's perspective, but we also are beginning to really understand Kate's

like Madison's perspective of body dysmorphia, the things that she's actually going through are real problems that people deal with when they're dealing with food consumption and things like this. It's just opposite ends of that spectrum. Very much so. Whether it's overeating or anorexia, bulimia, whatever the-- Yeah, depriving yourself. Whatever the dysfunction is in the relationship with food. But they take it, they kind of resolve it in the meeting, and then take it out into the parking lot. Yeah.

Which is a real Florida move. Yeah. It does. No offense, Florida, but it feels like a lot of parking lots. Listen, I'm from Florida, and I agree. Too many arguments happening in parking lots. Yeah, for real. They wind up having the slightest of fender benders. They sort of back into each other as they're coming out. Madison's like, what's wrong with you? You crazy you not see me? And Chrissy's in tears. Yes.

And she's like, why are you crying? Are you okay? She's like, I'm just, I'm pregnant. Yeah. Right? Sure. And they actually wind up hugging it out and having like this moment. Madison's reaction is so sweet. She's just immediately like-

Like, so happy for her. So excited. And, like, all is forgotten about whatever they were sort of having an argument about. And there's also this thing in the writers room when I would go in every once in a while and they're like, you guys have no friends. They're like, we need to find some friends for the Pearsons. And I love this unlikely friendship because, you know, we see later on in this season, like, Madison's actually, like, is someone that comes to the hospital. Like, she's there for Kate. Like, I think this sort of, like, is...

slowly planting the seeds of them being more sort of intertwined in each other's lives. Absolutely. Yeah. So, okay. On that note, I think we've covered everything in the episode. Yeah. Let's talk to Kate. We're going to bring Kate up, take a break, hear these consumer, whatever, the commercials, ads, whatever they're called. Word from our sponsors. A word from our sponsors. And then we'll be back with More That Was Us. More That Was Us after this short break.

Gang, let's talk about your travel plans for the next couple of months. What are you going to be doing? Anything? Back and forth to Toronto, man. I'm the king of Toronto. He's shooting in Toronto. More importantly, I'm the king of Toronto Airbnbs. Ooh. I really want to go somewhere in the mountains. I want to show the kids snow. Somewhere that I can drive. Absolutely. Because we have three children now and the idea of getting on an airplane seems a little daunting. So a road trip. I'm going to send you a link because we have a great Airbnb cabin in Lake Arrowhead. Are you serious? Please. I'm serious. I really would love that. I will send you the link. Please. I'm thinking about NOLA. Ooh.

Ooh. A little New Orleans trip. Why not? Yes. Let's do something fancy. I love it there. You've earned it. Yeah. This has been a really big year for travel for me personally. I've had projects everywhere. I get to, of course, record wonderful spots with my Pearson family here in person and come home, but I'm excited to be in a place where I can get comfortable, of

Of course, when I'm not at my actual home, I rely on Airbnb to capture that, how would you say, feels like home feeling. And the privacy when staying at an Airbnb is unparalleled. I love traveling and going places, but it can be tough to...

make holiday memories in a home that doesn't really let you relax and get comfortable. And that's why we look forward to our Airbnb trips as a family, because we can pick a place that's right for us. Exactamundo. Your home can also be the perfect place for someone else to open presents or ring in the new year, especially if no one is using it. Utilizing your space to start hosting through Airbnb could be the perfect way to make extra income this season and help out with the other holiday-related expenses you have.

Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the That Was Us podcast, Caitlin Thompson. Yay, Kate! What's going on, sister? Who you may know as Madeline.

- Madison. - That is Madison. Kate's dear friend, fiance to my brother Kevin and just all around good person. How you doing? - Baby mama to you, forgot that. - Baby mama, excuse me. Baby mama of twins. - Yes. - Let me not gloss over that. - That is an important plot line. - Big plot point. - Kate, how are you doing today?

I'm good. I just watched the episode this morning, so I feel like I'm in my feels. It's crushing your head. You watched 205, so it's like it's in your bones right now. It is. I was like, wow, so much.

happened in that episode a lot of stuff okay so wait so we want we're going to start off with you were in the pilot obviously and we know the story of how you came to become involved with the show to a certain extent but maybe you can fill in our viewers and listeners on how you first became associated with this is us

You know, I did the age-old Hollywood thing and I slept with the producer. Yeah, smart. Hey, it works out sometimes. Dan Fogelman's wife, ladies and gentlemen. I did the same thing. Not with the same producer, but the same, yeah. Let me hear that story. Maybe it's more interesting. You know Ken Olin. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- He's a tender and kind lover. Let me ask you, so like Dan wrote this thing a while ago, having it like as a movie. And I know you're a writer too, I'm curious. Do you guys bounce things off of each other? Do you let each other read what you guys are working on? Or do you try to kind of keep that siphoned off and separate? Like how do you guys do it creatively as a couple?

No, for sure. I think just the nature of him being down the hallway. And as a writer, you're so isolated. So I think it's always nice to just have that outside perspective. So I remember reading this. It was before we were engaged. We were about to get married. And it was called 36, I believe. Yeah, it was called 36. Yeah.

I feel like it started as a movie or something. I don't remember. I just remember being blown away, obviously. And I was like, how did you pull this off? You read it and you're like, I didn't think you were this talented. How did you get this? I remember other ones like Crazy Stupid Lover. I remember reading and I read the first 13 pages. But I feel like this one I kind of read it in its entirety. But yeah, I mean, it felt special.

from the beginning. It was kind of like, there was no doubt that this was something different and special. And I just wanted more and more and more. I was like, wait, this is it. You know, it's like normally you're doing features with him and, um,

So, yeah, it was. So we definitely bounce ideas off each other and talk things through. And I think through the whole process of him doing the show, you know, it's funny because there's a couple episodes I haven't seen, but I've seen bits and pieces of it. So I feel like I've seen them. But he always loves to show me things out of order. Just look at this scene. We did this cut the other day. No, I watch it like as an audience member in its entirety. So sometimes it doesn't.

it doesn't work to its advantage for me, but Dan does get excited. Cause he would do that throughout the course of the show too. He's like, Oh,

"Oh, I gotta show you this scene with Susan and Sterling." - He would just invite people into his office or whatever. - And he'd come to set and whip out his phone or something. - Yeah, he gets so excited and I love his giddiness. But the train episode, which I know I'm jumping ahead, but I haven't even seen that one because I've seen pieces of it and I know it would destroy me. And I was like, "I can't bring myself to actually sit down and watch it 'cause I've seen the gut-wrenching moments already." - Oh, man. - So yeah, he gets excited and it's infectious. - Do you have more insight? You certainly have more insight than I do about

Madison's storyline and when it was, I don't know when it was established that maybe she was gonna become romantically involved with Kevin. Like how far out did Dan know that that's the way it was going? - You know, I think it evolved. I mean, certainly from the pilot when I just had that little bit. I didn't know, I don't think he knew it was gonna become that thing. I think it was around the time that Kate, Chrissy's character was,

going to be pregnant and getting married. And I think the writer's room was like, she needs a friend. Like none of these Pearsons have a friend. She needs a friend to help her go through this big milestone in her life. And I think that's when the writers started being like, well, the natural person in her life. And the most interesting probably because they were enemies. Yeah.

Yeah. Sure. It would be Madison. Which is what happens in this episode. We see the transition from foes to a blossoming friendship that starts to happen. Yeah, like misunderstood for sure. Yeah. I think. Yeah.

Yeah, she turned on a dime at Madison. She was like, oh, baby. I have to say, too, and it's comical in the way that it's presented and whatnot, but Madison's presence in the group, whether you call it OA or what have you, it sort of highlights to me diet culture in terms of how, especially in a city like Los Angeles, we equate diet.

health with thinness. Yes. Right? You know, and that automatically we assume if a body type is not thin, then it's not healthy. But we also assume that a thin body type is healthy. Right? And so like your presence in the room is one that you're like, no, dude, I'm here. This is part of the conversation. Because I need help. Yeah. You know? So I just want to know if you want to turn it on. No, definitely from the outside I get

the judgment, but I think that's what the show did so well is it brings in all these different perspectives and it, you know, flips the coin. It's like, it's not always what it appears. And I think as the character of Madison grew, I mean, I always took her seriously and I was watching the show and I think it was like kind of the first time I could watch it and kind of take myself out of it. Like, I think it's been long enough now that I can kind of be like, okay, I'm not feeling the same feel. Like, you know, it's like you're just removed from it. Sure.

And I was always just so, I mean, she was a big character in this room of very grounded actors. I mean, you guys all had your comedic moments and stuff, but I was always a little self-conscious because she just felt like

A little larger than life. Yeah, we were all grounded in dramatic moments with lighthearted moments scattered about. And she is, for lack of a better trope, is presented as the joke in this. And so it's kind of a reverse. She has to now establish herself as a serious...

you know, subject matter or a serious character or someone who's grounded in more than just a gag. I'm curious how, like, tell us about your interactions, like working with Chrissy, working with Justin, because I feel like the two of them were sort of like your, your touchstones on the show throughout the course of the series. Yeah. I mean, they're both amazing and, and,

so welcoming so talented and Just fun. I think like the lightheartedness that they would bring to set like Chris You know, I'd always be laughing and you know telling jokes and Justin, you know He's amazing where he can be like in one conversation and then they call action and he just flips in and starts Monologue we just like okay. I can't do that. I mean like I need to go over here Music on like you do your thing but you know, they were just

you know, so fun to play off of and so there for you and so present. I just feel so lucky that that was, you know, my experiences with them. It really worked out great for all of us, didn't it? We really lucked out. Yeah, we really did luck out. It turned into something. It turned into something. I still love that your own husband wrote your storyline with like this handsome, like one of the most like handsome, winning, talented people. Some insider stuff like...

Dan, as he was writing it, would joke to all of us. He was like, I can't believe I'm doing this. I cannot believe I'm doing this. I am writing my wife into a romantic relationship with Justin Hartley. Why am I doing this? I mean, during later in the season, like during COVID times, he'd be watching at the monitor at home and it was always on. Like it would be like that was kind of just always on in our house. Like we'd always be hearing you guys doing your lines, rehearsing like any room in the TV because he would just come and check in.

And like, sometimes he'd be watching a take and he's like, did you have to touch him there? And I'd be like, are you kidding me? I was like, way to make me feel insecure. I didn't script that many kisses. I didn't, it certainly is not scripted as a long kiss. It's scripted as a short kiss. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's joking, but I, you know, him and Ken, I was like, you guys, please. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, Ken was very helpful too in appeasing everyone's anxiety around the-- Right? He just knew the buttons to press. Yeah. I remember talking to you just like in base camp or whatnot, and you would talk about feeling a little nervous, what have you, which was always sort of surprising to me because you had such wonderful comedic timing. And then when it came time to show like the more sincere, serious parts of Madison as well, they seemed seamless.

So seamless. And beautiful. Like, I'm thinking specifically of the wedding that almost was and the conversation between the two of you before, like, you know what? You can't just be with me because I look good on paper. You think that you're supposed to love me. You want your family to be together. Like, do you actually love me? Like, you brought...

the pain in that stuff. And I say this as a fellow thespian, because you're a writer, you're a creator, but like, as an actor, you were so damn good. And I'm wondering, did you ever feel more settled while you were doing it? Or did you always kind of feel like, oh, I hope that was okay? Like, did you find a spot where you were like, not finding a bit of a groove? Yeah, I mean, that scene especially,

I did have this weird, it kind of freaked me out, like this calmness that came over me. I did feel really locked in in that moment. But I think I did so much prep work because I was so anxious. It felt like this is my Super Bowl. I need to land this moment for Madison. And so I did so much prep work and I had all these, you know, preparations queued up and triggers. And it was interesting. I remember I was struggling with

She was sacrificing so much in that moment. You're really kissing goodbye the idea of this perfect family that you could have. And whether it wouldn't be perfect or not, because maybe love wasn't there, it's a lot to throw away. There was a lot at stake there. And I remember I liked to sometimes work with an object. And I had these earrings that Hala had given me.

And I just created this backstory for them. I was like, what if these are the earrings my mother gave me when she was leaving and said they were from an old boyfriend and that was her belief as she was leaving that there is true love. And so I just became really attached to the idea of these earrings. And I think that kind of just broke something open for me because I'm holding them throughout the scene. Yeah. And it just kind of became a lifeline to like,

This is hard for her to do, but she believes that there's something more for her on the other side of it. And you have to just push through and do what's in your heart.

to get to that other moment. - I love that. - That's kind of dope. Shit worked. - Yeah, that's a great exercise. - I hope you kept those earrings. - It's not always great, but in that moment, I did feel like I had tapped into something that just felt really true for me. - I feel like the writers also have this uncanny ability, like as the show goes on, as they get to know us as actors and humans, like they wrote

for us in a way. And so maybe there was also that part of it too. You know, it's like as the series progressed, it was sort of like the lines started to blur a little bit. I mean, you felt it maybe more like earlier than some of us. It's just like, oh, wow. Like it's so effortless. Like so much of the work is done for you because of what's on the page that, yeah, just these little tweaks and these little tips and tricks that you can like

bring to the office for lack of a better word like is what helps kind of like push it over the edge they're so great at finding those small moments that are so human and yeah and small sometimes that you can pass them by but i think in the big picture of the show this show is all about those those moments yep and i think that's a great takeaway for for life but um

But yeah, that was a big scene. I remember taking, I was like, I had a margarita after that. I was like, I need to go home. - Yes, girl! - You earned it! - Yeah, Justin showed me a picture of him drinking a beer and I sent him one. I was like, I'm right there with ya. - Tell me in the timeline of things in terms of you becoming a mom and Madison becoming a mom, which one happened first? - I was, I wanna say six months pregnant.

When Dan, I remember sitting in bed and he was like tiptoeing in. He's like, so, so he's like, the writers are pitching this idea. You know, he's like, I just want to know what you think. And this is before COVID. Yes. Before COVID. Okay. Before I really shit really hit the fan. I, I, it was kind of like a conversation and I was scared. I mean, honestly, it was, it,

I didn't even, this show was already so established and it was, you know, I didn't want to be the one to come in and like mess it up in some way, you know? It was a big deal, but I, yeah, I was six months pregnant when I filmed the scene with Justin where I say I'm having a baby and like, you don't need to be a part of it, but I'm having the baby.

And then of course, then I had my son and then I was wearing a belly. So I felt like I was pregnant for two years. Wow. But yeah, it was... You're like, Dan, you actually could have planned this better. You were in control of this. It was, yeah. I just remember strapping on that and I was like, I feel like I... I already did this. I remember seeing like a comment pop up online when I was pregnant, but I was pregnant on the show.

And someone was like, wow, this actress is really going for it. Like, she looks swollen and everything. This actress is really going. She must have had a salty lunch. People are the worst.

Like when she really admits, she blowed it up. This is a good segue. How many times do you look at comments and like how many times do you get like a positive sort of feedback from it versus not positive? Too many. It's like so 50-50 that I've just learned to like not. It's one of those things too because it can be overwhelmingly positive.

But the one thing that is not so positive- - Sticks in your crawl. - Is seared in your mind. - Yeah, negativity bias, man. - Yeah. - It'll kill you. - I remember back in the day before there was social media and people just got a chance to look at the comments on IMDB. And I'd be like, "Wow, don't do that." - You don't need to comment. - Yeah, we're good. We're good.

That's what I'm saying. I was like, she's so committed. That's good practice, though, to just don't read it. If you don't read it, it doesn't exist. It can't hurt you. But she also lives, she is Dan Fogelman's wife. And Dan Fogelman, in the middle of episodes, is like, oh, we're losing him. Reading the comments. He's looking at Twitter.

- I'm looking at Twitter like a lot. - Get off Twitter. - I think I lost him. - Yeah, he's like a play by play in the moment. It's like literally like there's like this in his heart is going like a needle. - Completely, completely. So you probably do better than him, which is good. - I've learned, I mean, I heard someone say like, if you believe the good, you have to believe the bad. And I was like, fair enough. - Yeah, it's true. - I'm not strong enough to believe any of it. I'm just gonna.

Okay, so my next question, I'm going to give it to my partners over here. You're incredibly good at a couple of things that I know of. I'm sure there's more, but you're an incredibly accomplished writer. You're a brilliant actor and whatnot. Which one do you receive more fulfillment from? And artistically, what path are you treading down most these days? They're both very fulfilling. I think I've always just loved

being creative and storytelling. And so I think any facet of this industry I find fulfilling. I mean, there's nothing better to me than being on set for 12 hours, but at the same time, there's nothing better than like sitting at my computer for eight hours and, you know, writing and having a great scene. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, right now I think doors are opening with writing, so I'm kind of going that direction. But if the right part comes along, of course, I would still love to act. I mean, it's been

a huge part of my life for so long. It's been something I've worked for for so long. But I feel like my acting helps my writing and my writing helps my acting. So I don't feel like I have to choose necessarily. No way. It's just kind of a fun journey to go on. And on that note, is there anything that people can see you in? Anything you want to shout out? Or can people follow you on social media? Or like, you know what I mean? Tune in to this Zoom.

I have a bunch of writing things in the works, but as I'm learning, it takes about, it takes some time to put together. So I have a couple of things that we're developing. Yeah. So exciting. Well, if it helps your writing, you know, hold us in your mind, you know, hold. If you need to hear a voice. If you need to hear a voice. Listen. If the character needs to sound a certain way. Some of us are unemployed. I am, you know.

Yeah, if you need someone to read something for you. Yeah, you just let us know. I want to get the dream team back together. Yeah, please. Anytime. There you go. Some like fan fiction alternate...

I mean, I love you guys. You guys know that I would kill to work with any of you at any time in any capacity. - Likewise. - It goes both ways. - Likewise. - Pitch this, pitch, we came up with this idea yesterday. Pitch this to Dan while you guys are bouncing ideas around, is that the whole first season of Sterling's new show, Paradise, is just one of Randall's anxiety dreams, and he wakes up and it's a prequel to the next season of This Is Us. You wouldn't believe it. - Oh my God.

We do the Dallas. We do the Dallas. We can make it work. It's all good. Kate, thank you so much for making time to hang with us. Hopefully you'll come back later as we get into more Madison-specific storylines or what have you. But it's great to see you as always. And tell your husband we said hey. Good to see you guys. See you soon. Good to see you too. Yeah, thanks, Kate. Thank you, Kate. See you guys. All right.

We are back with our favorite segment of the show. You talking about that emotional support hotline, baby? No, I am. We love a good call. Yes.

I believe we have Heather who left us a voicemail. Okay, cool. If we could call her. Well, let's listen to the voicemail first. Yeah, of course. Of course. I'm just dialing up the number to make sure I got it in there so I don't accidentally call her voicemail again. That's good. That's good. Once bitten, twice shy. Good for you, buddy. Roll that voicemail. Hi, this is Heather, and I'm so in love with your podcast and your show. My callback is 19-

Short little synopsis is my husband was alive during the first season of This Is Us. And we love watching it together. Just loved crying together and just family with three kids. Tragically, he died five years ago today, actually.

And so the remaining seasons, I'm pretty sure seasons two through six, I watched on my own and just felt so much just sadness.

I just felt validated and seen in the character of Rebecca. And I'm rewatching it right now as I get ready, as I prepared for this anniversary. And it helped me so much with grief and parenting and life. And I just love you all for that. So I'd love to share that with you on your podcast. And again, it's Heather. Oh, my good gracious. Let's call. Good morning. Good morning.

- Hi Heather. - Good morning. - Heather. - Hello. - How are you? - It's Mandy, Kristen, Sterling. - Hi Heather. - You knew it was us. Oh my goodness. - Yes, yes. - Heather, we just listened to your voicemail and I think the three of us collectively are slightly gobsmacked, but first of all, our most sincere condolences on your loss. - Thank you. - And we are honored,

if in some small way we were able to help you through that process of grieving. Sometimes we forget what we do and that it's just a little TV show, but you can help us understand, reflect back to us, like what was it about watching the show, especially your connection with Rebecca that made you feel validated in what you were going through? Oh my goodness. Well, I'll try to

I feel a little overwhelmed right now. It takes me back to all of those feelings that I think I mentioned in the voicemail. Again, I called in, I think, two months ago. It was just before the anniversary of Todd's accident.

And we were fans of the show together before his accident. So I remember just watching this family. We have three kids, like just seeing all the things that, you know, the family dynamics, the warmth, the fun dad that Jack was, which is so much like Todd was that after he passed or Todd passed, I just thought, oh my gosh, Rebecca is like...

she's going to help me through this. I mean, your whole show, but I, I felt seen and I just felt, um, like all of the crazy emotions I was having, the shock I was in, um, it felt safe to watch her specifically for me. And so Mandy, thank you so much. I just, I cheer up thinking about it. Yeah. We're, we're all in tears over here too. What, what,

strength you have to sort of persevere and keep putting one foot in front of the other. And as Sterling said, the fact that if we were in any way able to help walk you through an unimaginable time in your life, we are so honored to have been there for you. Yeah, I don't even know what to say. Heather, how old are your youngins?

Well, now they are, my youngest is 21. My oldest is 26. So at the time, my youngest was 16, which is very similar to the Pearson kids. So, you know, just, yeah, I've tried to be there for them. But honestly, like I was in survival mode just the first year was a shock.

And, you know, it's Grace, my youngest, I've gotten her turned on to the show and, you know, she can appreciate it now, too. Just I think it helped her to see teenagers grappling with this sudden just just instability in the life and just an earthquake of of the loss of, you know, what they had. So it's it's helped my kiddos, too. Wow. Wow.

Chris, say something. We're all just absorbing and digesting your story and your vulnerability and just the fact that you were able to call us on the anniversary. It's just unbelievable. Well, again, I'm so grateful that the show exists. It feels like a connection because Todd and I did watch it together. I started re-watching the series the month of the

the anniversary

of his passing and I'm now on season five. So it just, yeah, I just relate so much and I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that do. So, but the specific, the specificity of having a loss that was sudden and unexpected too was a big part of that. Just validation. And like, I, I just, yeah, felt very seen and very comforted and like safe and watching the

the Pearson family. Let me ask you something, Heather, because we're going to let you go in a second, but is there anything on public record that you would like the world to know about Todd? Yeah. Oh, wow. Thank you for asking that. Yes. Um,

He was just, I mean, and I still believe he is just always looking for the good in people. If you needed someone to root for you, he was that guy. And I know that he wants me and all of our kids and family and really everyone. I mean, just everyone was a friend waiting to be discovered for him. And so I try to be like that. I mean, I, you know, can't be...

nearly what he was, but I think he would just encourage us all to like, look for that good and, and just assume the best in people and, and be there for them. So that's what I would share. Yeah. That is beautiful. What a legacy. What a legacy. Yeah. Yeah.

Heather, thank you for sharing. You've messed up my non-existent makeup. We all have tears. Thank you for that. We love you and we're here for you. So wishing you and your three young ones all the best and I

I feel the encouragement from Todd to seek out the best in people. Yeah. What a great reminder for all of us, for us, for the listeners. Thank you so much, Heather. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for calling in. We're so glad that we could be there with you and, and, you know, your journey of rewatching the show with us. It really, really means so much. Thank you.

Oh, you all mean so much to me. I love you too. And I just thank you for sharing your talents with the world. So thank you. Have a wonderful rest of the day. Have a great day. Thanks. Take care. You too. Take care. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye. That was the emotional support hotline.

Again, we delude ourselves into thinking that we're doing something for people. I guess we do, but it's all circular. What you give, you get back, right? Truly, truly. Guys, thank you. Thank you to Heather again. Thanks to all of you for listening. If you want to call into the emotional support hotline, we would love to hear from you. Our number is 412-501-3028. You could send us an email at thatwassuspod at gmail.com. Let us know.

that you're liking the show or what you liked about the series when it was on, um, questions, comments, concerns, all of it. We just, we would love to hear from you as we wipe away the tears from that last call. Yes. All right. That's that. Thanks, friends. Thanks guys. We'll see you next time. See you next time. Bye.

All right, welcome back to the retread. It is brought to you by Peloton. Find your push, find your power with Peloton. On this episode of the podcast, we discovered that I desperately enjoy dancing around in public. Very much so. And pouring buckets of water on myself. A bucket of water was a delight for all of us. We also learned about Kevin and Randall's sibling relationship. Randall always proving to be a bit too much.

Kev pushing back, but now in their adult years, it seems as if they're finding more of a synchronicity with one another. We also learned that maybe your own children love you too much sometimes. And we learned that Mandy has many people in her life who have been dead to her for a long time, but she's unwilling to mention. This has been The Retread, brought to you by Peloton.

That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. That was us.