Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
- Welcome back.
to a very, very special episode of That Was Us. - Yeah. - I'm Mandi Moore. - I'm Chris Sullivan. - I'm Sterling Brown. You can put the K in there if you want to. It's all good. - I'll do it. - Always, always gotta add the K. - Always gotta add the K. We have a, it's a special episode because today we have a special guest. We're not gonna be discussing any one particular episode of the show, but we are gonna be talking to the creator of the show, Mr. Dan Fogelman. - The man, the myth, the legend. - The legend.
Spoiler alert, we will discuss like all seasons to a certain extent. So if you haven't watched everything, you can come back to this episode when you have. Listen at your discretion, as they say. So without further ado, let's get into it with Dan. Let's get into it. Are you looking to take control of your skincare routine and discover a product that redefines anti-aging technology?
Well, I am very excited to introduce you to our new sponsor and a product that I absolutely love, the Lima Laser. This revolutionary anti-aging laser has become an essential part of my daily wellness routine. So if you're aiming to combat wrinkles, blemishes, redness, or scars, the Lima Laser could become an essential part of yours too.
I have been trying to combat some pregnancy melasma, and honestly, I feel like I've tried many lotions and potions, but it wasn't until...
Many, many, many people recommended the Lima Laser that I have seen any sort of improvement. And I know it takes time and I'm getting there. I think what I've heard about the laser is you just have to be consistent. So it's become a part of my daily routine. I put the boys down, I take a shower, I do my whole skincare routine, and then I hop into bed with my husband and we watch a show. And while I'm watching TV, I just use my Lima Laser and it's
Amazing. It's really easy to get in the habit of doing something when you're setting yourself up to have that kind of success. So I'm a big fan. Lima is the world's most powerful clinical-grade cosmetic laser device and the only laser device FDA cleared for at-home use. Imagine taking just 15 minutes a day to make your face look 10 years younger. Why not give it a try?
Lima isn't just an amazing anti-aging tool. It also helps address countless skin issues, including wrinkles, sagging, blemishes, pigmentation, redness, breakouts, and scars. It's cordless, makes your skin look great, and it's been named one of Time Magazine's Top 100 Inventions. So what are you waiting for?
Visit Lima.life, L for live, Y for younger, M for masterful, A for approved, and learn more about the Lima Laser. That's L-Y-M-A dot life. Are we ready to go? We're rolling. All right. Great. We're rolling. All right. So today, welcome back, everyone, to That Was Us.
We're here with the lovely Amanda Lee Moore, my man Christopher Sullivan. I'm Sterling Brown, and we have a special guest today. Very special. The creator and showrunner of This Is Us, Mr. Dan Fogelman.
- Stop, everyone's scared. - Welcome, sir, welcome. And listen, we decided we're gonna do just a special standalone episode. We're not gonna talk about any one particular episode of the show, but just talk to Dan about his creative process, how this came to him, how he came to this business and like what this sort of meant for him, this moment of creating this particular show. Dan, first of all, how you doing today?
you doing today? I'm good. I'm good. Sterling. First of all, thank you for having us to your home. I've never been invited. It's right. It's very right for you. It's cozy. You have baby pictures of Chris and I. It's very sweet of you. My grandmother's like, uh,
- White woman, your grandma. - Yeah, yeah, she liked white women. So I'm just sure about the thing that she was good. - I'm good, I've got a runny nose, but I am good otherwise. - Okay, we're glad to hear it. It's a little rainy out here in Southern California today, so I'm glad everybody made it here safe and sound.
- Indeed. - Does anybody wanna ask the first question? I feel like, I just start talking, but like- - I love when you start talking. You need to take the lead. - All right, I'll just say this. What was the inspiration for the show, Big Bo? How'd it come to you? - I mean, it was originally, I mean, I've talked about it a little bit. It was originally a movie. - Right. - I was starting to write it as a film because I think,
i was in the i was in a bit of a transition point in my career in my life i was trying to figure out what i was going to do next i think a little bit and um my my mom had passed away a couple years earlier and i i was debating having kids all my friends were having kids i'm 48 now so back then i was like 38. yeah and uh were you 38 or were you 36 i think i was 37. okay you're 37. when i started writing it i started writing it i was like 36. yeah and um
- Yeah, and I started writing a movie about, I started thinking about how my friends were all in such different places in their lives at the roundabout age I was, which at the time was 36, 37. Some of my friends were married with like grown children, like 10, 12, 13 year old kids. But then I had myself, I was like,
on the cusp of getting engaged to Kate, I had lost my mom. Other friends had lost all their parents. Other friends had had cancer. I had a friend who passed away or was sick with cancer. So I was like, oh, wow, it's interesting that we could all be hypothetically the same age or literally born on the same day and be leading such different lives. And I think that was kind of the starting point. And then I thought to myself, oh, that's kind of a cool twist. What if
you thought that was the story you were telling, but it was actually the story of a couple of, um, multiple birth type children. At the time when I was writing the movie, there were about seven or eight. It was like octuplets or sextuplets or whatever that's called. So it was like kind of a love actually story finding all these different people, um,
born on different days. - It sounds like the Wachowski sisters, that sci-fi thing they had on Netflix where they all sort of shared the same brain. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was it. I had an English woman in the show. I thought one person moved to England and got an accent that would be hiding it. - Sure. - One character's black, one character's two otherwise white, so you would never see that they're all potentially related and grew up in the same home. And then like I got like 60, 70 pages in and it just, it was not working. I was like, this doesn't work. It feels like it exists.
just to get to a surprise, and that's the end. And I just kind of put it in a drawer, which I had not done before. So that was the start. Yeah. And then, yeah, and then I was doing other stuff. I had had a bad run of television experiences where shows I made were not quite cutting through. They were getting canceled. But you were getting, like, first seasons usually, weren't you? Yeah. I had a couple of two-season shows. I was at a different studio. They were just kind of like, I got screwed a couple of times. Yeah.
I had some big projects that weren't going. It was just like, it wasn't quite, I was kind of going, should I go back primarily to film? I wasn't quite sure. And then I- Tell them about the films that you've made, big guy. Yeah.
Flex on them for a second. Yeah, get the resume going. Yeah, I mean, we can flex on them. Crazy Stupid Love. That's kind of it. Little Danny Collins. Yeah. What's the Santa Claus joint? Fred Claus. Fred Claus. That's what I lead with. The Santa Claus joint. That's the one that goes on the tombstone. This is the second pairing of you and Miss Amanda Lee because we did a little tangled together. I wrote tangled, yeah. You wrote Cars. You wrote Cars. Life Itself.
- Life itself, my big colossal failure. - Listen, hold on. - Love that movie. - Let me take a little, that movie, Dan. I know this is gonna make- - Look him in the eye. - Don't make me cry. It changed my life. Rachel and I saw a screening of it at Paramount and we both walked out of that theater different people. And it was, I love that movie. - I remember something that was really good. - I love that movie. - It's so uncomfortable, I love it. - I love that movie.
Well, yes, I read a lot of shit. And then what did I do? So it was in a drawer. I made a new deal at a television studio. And then I was like, I wonder if that could be a TV series, something different. I'd primarily been doing half hours. And I was like, I wonder if I could do something more in the line of like what I normally write with this. And maybe part of what was fucking me up. Can I curse on this? Yes. Sure. Go for it. But maybe part of what was messing me up was...
maybe part of what was messing me up was that I needed to get to an ending and that was just the ending like that's kind of a fart like they're all related that's the end of the movie and I kind of knew that and so I was like oh if it's a series it just kind of turns the whole thing on its head at the end and then you can make like
a gazillion of them and follow these people. So I cut back the number of characters and focused on a family of three, three children in the family. And then I wrote it and then it just kind of all took off from there. I don't know anything about developing a TV show or writing a TV show, but you set yourself up for a high level of difficulty as far as storytelling goes. Yep.
The number of twists and turns. We talked last week about the secrets that we had to hold so that the thing could unfold in front of people. Maybe you can talk a little bit about the writer's room because Sterling brought it up last night. The timelines that you guys would keep to keep all of this stuff storybound.
straight and to keep it moving in a direction that ended somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a tremendous amount of work. Spoilers possibly. So just, you know, we're talking about the whole show. I don't think that I was conscious of it when I wrote the pilot and like that became a bit of the narrative that like, holy shit, this guy has a whole grand plan of six seasons of a television show. I just, I think that kind of started coming after I realized it was going to be a thing.
once we started shooting it and making it, I was like, Oh, I better figure out what we're doing. So I had a lot of thoughts and like of the big picture shape of the show. It's going to end with the death of somebody
- I told them already. - All right. You just cut it out. But I kind of knew the big picture shape and the Jack stuff. But no, I mean, then it just takes on a life of its own and you start putting those time, I had all these incredible writers. The first couple of weeks of that writer's room was probably like the most exciting time in my career.
Really? Creatively. Yeah, it was like really like, it was just like a bunch of people. It was primarily young women in the room. Not young, like 10, but like 30-year-old women. Fifth graders. Yeah. What an opportunity. Fresh ideas. I really wanted new voices. Fresh ideas. Yeah, yeah.
It was just really exciting. Everybody was like telling their primal origin stories and we were working them into the show. And that's where the big picture of the show started really developing. And I go, oh, I like that. Oh, some person would tell a story of their life and everybody would start crying. Oh yeah, let's do that. And so we kind of picked and chosen. And then over the course of that year and the next year, really the timeline really developed. Were they all seasoned TV people?
Or I know Becca was a playwright. It was Jess and I, my producing partner. I was like, I really want to get great writers and people that aren't necessarily all just television writers. So yeah, we had, I mean, I hired KJ, one of our writers. She was an established television writer, like well-regarded. But I hired her off a play she had written. Yeah, same with Becca. Yeah.
It was just, it was a hodgepodge of people from all different kind of walks of lives and experiences. And that kept, you know, you'd lose writers as you go. People kind of leave and go off to do other things and you bring in news. But there was always kind of a wide like swath of people in that room. And it wasn't just like the obvious thing to say would be like, oh, it was, whether it was diverse or whatnot. It was just, it was also just people had a lot of different life experiences there. There weren't a lot of people who like,
had the same like, oh, yeah, that's exactly like my childhood. It was a lot of different childhoods. And I think that was really kind of foundational as well. I think as we've been discussing the show too and going back and rewatching it, we're just astounded by so many things. But
Something that's really struck me is just how fully realized the show is from the beginning. Did you know that, like, you didn't want to tell the story linearly, that you wanted to sort of play with time in that way and jump around? That I knew. Okay. It's a weird one, like, when people ask, because, like...
I don't think, there was such intensive planning. I mean, I think part of what you see when you watch the show as a whole, if you like the show, is like it was meticulous and all the people who were writing on it and then the people who were acting in it afterwards and all those parts, we took it so seriously. Like it was as if the world depended on us making sure that we got every connected piece of tissue to it when it was really, you know.
And we very rarely let something slide. You know what I mean? It was like, and so there was like a meticulous like nature of like, is this working? Does this work? Does this all connect? That it almost became like obsessive for a group of 10 people who were writing the television show. And I think you feel that. Yeah. We talked about that last week about how that attention to detail is
in my opinion, made the audience feel safe and considered. And that like, even though this is going to be hard, there's going to be a lot of hard things that we talk about that like the people creating the show are being that detailed and being that considered with these things. I think what happened
Honestly, in retrospect, I had a couple of big picture things I knew. I knew I wanted the show to be challenging, but accessible in the way it played with time. I had always said to them, in the second episode, we're going to jump all the way back with Mandy and Milo, and you're not going to be seeing the same people that you're going to see them in Crisis. You know what I mean? Eight years later. And those little babies that are being born are going to be now eight-year-old kids. And that's a big jump in network television. That was a big thing. So I knew that kind of stuff.
I think the show took such like, like that first year when the show took hold in like the zeitgeist. - Yeah. - It was all the people working on it. And I'm like the writers particularly, but also I think even the actors, it's why everybody like enjoyed it so much as opposed to sometimes when people miss the enjoyment, I think like. - Yeah.
Like nobody had experienced that level of insanity in this field. Like, man, do you've experienced it? And Sterling was just coming off winning an Emmy. But like it was like the popular thing in television when you're just the show that everybody's like watching. And I think suddenly like we were like, oh, shit, we better –
really figure this thing out. - When did that really hook for you? Because you're a delightfully neurotic human being and you sort of try to play it under, but like, when did it feel like, oh, oh snap. - This is different. - We're gonna be around for a while. - I knew that, I mean, I'd been a part of really big things, right? Like I'd done animated Pixar cars, right? And I'd done stuff like that had kind of broken through in different ways, whether it was Crazy Stupid Love or Tangled or,
And I'd also been around big movie stars like Streisand and Pacino and all these guys. So I kind of knew what it...
But I knew what the, I knew what the war, I knew what the, what big things felt like a little bit. But like when I was watching it film, I was like, holy shit, this is going to be something big. I just had a feeling. I never get that. From the pilot. From filming the pilot. Wow. Yeah. Like I was like, this is going to be very good. And I think it might. And then we started to get all those bellwether signs, like the, the trailer busting out like that. I remember very vividly like being, they'd made a trailer before we got announced at upfronts and, and,
I noticed I was screening it for people and I've told the story a lot, but people were, I was not, I never thought that the show would be crying and that would be a narrative about the show. - Neither did I. - I never thought that. I actually thought it was funnier than it was like bad. - Same. - Me too. - I agree. - You mentioned that a lot. - We talked about that last week. - You mentioned that a lot. - It's like- - Doesn't get credit for the levity that it brings. - Yeah. - But people, the viewers latch onto that because it makes them- - Yeah.
feel something. I think it's part of why they're able to like those who watch the show and enjoy that type of thing. They let go because like you're not just, you're pounding them, but there's also laughter and storylines within the heavier stuff and whatnot. So yeah,
But yeah, I was screening it for people because we had a year or so. We filmed it so early. We had quite some time before. Not a year, but not the normal amount of time from filming to pick up. Sure. And I would screen it for people and people were having really severe reactions in a positive way. I had a DVD of it and I would like...
Once in a while, like my buddies, my buddies would be over like my house in the Hollywood Hills and my old bachelor pad that Kate was making me move out of. You're like breathing on it and wiping it on your shirt. They would come over and they would come over to watch football. And then I would like, I remember once vividly my buddy Josh and Alex who subsequently passed away, but they came over for watch football. I was like, hey, do you guys want to see that thing I was working on for NBC?
And it ended and my buddy Josh, we just finished watching like eight hours of football and drinking like unbelievable amounts of like whiskey and bourbon and stuff. And like, but Josh, like Alec, it was just like dead quiet. And then Josh got up and he excused himself and went outside and he was like, really? Like they were like emotional. And I was like, huh, this is odd. And I just got noticed of that.
I thought people were gonna be like, "Holy shit, that's a great twist," and feel something, but they need the emotion. And so then the trailer came out and people were having that reaction just to the materials and the actors without knowing anything about it. - That's what I mean. Like it was, what was it? 70 million?
- Yeah, it was nuts. I went to New York for the Upfronts and Jennifer Saki, who is the president, is now the president of Amazon, but was the president of NBC at the time. She called me and I was in a taxi in New York going to the Upfronts. And she said, "Have you heard what's happening with the trailer?" And I was like, "What?" And truth be told, I thought the trailer was like, I had nothing to do with the trailer. I'd been very involved in the naming of the show and how it would be marketing. I had strong opinions and I thought the trailer was good.
- Yeah, fine. - And I was like, she was like, do you see what's going on with the trailer? And I was like, no. And she's like, it's going berserk. And I was like, oh. And so we had all those signs and then you could just tell like the night we launched, I mean, I was telling Sterling didn't remember it, but like everything, like Sterling won the Emmy for Darden
on either Sunday or Monday night, the Emmys were, and we aired the following Tuesday. Like one or two days later. You were at that Mexican restaurant with us, like live tweeting the premiere a day or two days after you won the Emmy. Oh, damn.
- Yeah. - I believe. - No, come on, you had the Emmy there. - Yeah. - Yeah, you were passing it around. - You were like showing it to everybody. - If it wasn't one or two days later, it was the week after, but it was her. So there was just a lot of shit that was lining up and then it aired and the numbers were really big.
and then it just kept growing upon itself. And I remember going to Thanksgiving to go see my family and it was around the time the eighth episode was airing and Milo was doing the pushups with Lonnie on his back. And I remember on the plane, it was one of those visuals of every TV on the plane. Felt like it was on the show. And then I got there and people were in the hotel. It was right as like, it was getting towards like information about Jack. It was the most we were ever in the zeitgeist, right in that period. And like,
I remember it was on in the hotel I was checking into somehow.
faintly or maybe at one day the next week at the hotel because I was staying there for a week and like people at the desk were looking up at that and I was like, oh wow, we're really this is like quite a thing. Yeah. Yeah, it was like I was I just remember around that first eight episodes seven episodes of the show I was like it took a month or two and I was like wow man I can't even mention that I work on the show without people like going. Oh, yeah, like even if they weren't watching it It's just everybody knew about it
It was one of the few things where people, I don't know how this happened. Maybe you can speak to like that timing, that people were watching it in real time. It's like one of the last shows. Sure. Game of Thrones. Yep. Where people were like, oh, Sunday night. Oh, Tuesday night. Appointment television. It's going to happen. Like why, what is it about the time in which it came out into the world do you think that allowed it to sort of latch on the way that it did?
I really don't know. They used to ask me that all the time. And they would always refer it to Trump and the political environment of the world. I just like, I honestly, I think, I don't know. I always pointed at you guys in the cast. - I spoke to the divisiveness of the world and it is something that seemed to, we could all agree that we love our family. You know what I'm saying? And that was something that for like an hour, you're like, oh, it felt unifying in a very divisive world. - I think that's a good way. I always thought that was a way of saying it was like that,
you know people that you could be right in the face screaming at because they're so opposite who you are as a person like if you saw that person just like when their husband or when they were having a baby or when when they were at a parent's funeral like it's very we're all kind of in the same you wouldn't you wouldn't hate the person in that moment yeah and so maybe there's something unifying about these family shows that once in a while a show comes along at the right time and just catches people yeah um and maybe the time was right for it maybe i think
it was the cast was just so appealing. And I think like, I don't know, I think the mystery of the first season, I always felt like there was a there was a lot that always confused me because I always thought Parenthood was such a great show. Yeah. And Friday Night Lights, a lot of stuff Jason Kadams had done in this space.
And there was a lot of concern that the show would be small and we don't want it to feel like those shows, which hadn't like in their mind's eyes, it wasn't one particular person, but like had felt small for some reason that I didn't quite understand. But I did always think that like the mystery of the patriarch's death was,
would give people some red meat to go along with a family dramedy that like you're pulling people through something with the story as they're also really caring about the characters and the other arcs and the marriages and the adoption stories and the romances. But like, I think that did have a part of pulling us into the zeitgeist as well. 'Cause that's when it started. Like Chrissy pulled out that urn in like the fifth five. And that was like a moment where like,
And it was also like just the Miguel showing up at the end of two, which I knew after the pilot, we needed a big twist at the end of two and say, Oh, she married what happened to the dad. And then when she pulls out the urn and says he's dead and you know, Oh, I'm living in a timeframe with two timeframes with kids. At what point will he die? And that gave it, I think a propeller. Yeah. I mean, it makes it feel like the, the, the kind of in your face nature of, um,
mortality, right, pulls the audience towards something that they inherently, we all know it's coming. Right. But now it's in your face. Sure. And it also kind of, in a way, says to the audience, we will take care of you, but
-anything goes here. - Yeah. Like, five episodes in, we're gonna kill one of your favorite characters. Yeah. And you're not gonna know why for a very long time. And so it, like, propels people's interest in what's gonna happen, which is life, too, the anticipation of what's next. I think that's right. I mean, I think that helped. I think it was like a little magic trick we had inside of those first couple seasons of the show.
which was like, and why people, there was an urgency. Like shows have, Game of Thrones had urgency to see it in real time because someone was gonna die. Yeah. Right? At its best, when Sex and the City was one of those shows, primarily for like a different audience, it was like, who is she gonna wind up with? I'm still part of that audience. There's a question, right? There's a question. That's our next rewatch podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys are doing Sex and the City. That's gonna go nuts.
More That Was Us after these words from our sponsors. Summer is all about you and your active lifestyle. It's the perfect time to embrace outdoor runs, walks, hikes, strength classes, and any activity that gets you moving. With the longer days and warmer weather, finding the best time to fit in a workout becomes a part of your daily adventure.
This summer, thanks to our new sponsor Peloton, it's time to redefine what it means to be a runner. Listen, y'all, I'm watching these Olympics. I'm watching Simone Biles. I'm watching American dominance in the swimming pool. I am so excited. Looking forward to everything that's coming. USA men, stand up on the basketball court. Let's go.
I'm a Peloton aficionado. I got the treadmill. I got the bike. I do the strength classes. I do the stretching. I run. I do everything. The instructors are great. The enthusiasm that they bring to my workout is beyond anything that I could hope for. I'm a big, big fan. It will get you going. If you need a jumpstart, go to Peloton. I'm telling you. Peloton has a range of class types.
Looking for a 5 or 15 minute session? Peloton has you covered. And if you want to toss your headphones in and hit the trail, sessions range from their pop runs to their walk and talks, whatever your level.
Embrace it. Your journey starts when you say so, and you define what it means to be a runner. Want to make the most of these sunny summer days? Well, bring your workouts with a range of outdoor content on the Peloton app, like guided runs, sprints, walks, hikes, strength classes, and more. Peloton has everything you need for an on-the-go summer lifestyle. You choose how to move.
Push at your own pace with their expert-level instructors and find something fit for you. Call yourself a runner with Peloton at onepeloton.com slash running. That's onepeloton.com slash running.
All right. I have been so excited to partner with Quince here for the podcast. The weather is getting warmer, and so it's time to say goodbye to all my jackets and light sweaters, mostly light sweaters here in California, and say hello to shorts and tees, what we do best out here in Cali.
I wanted to update my wardrobe for the long haul. And what I do most seasons is I try to get the classics, you know, without spending a fortune. Luckily, we found Quince. Now you've got a lineup of timeless pieces that keep you looking amazing year after year. They've got so much great stuff. Premium European linen dresses, blouses and shorts from $30, washable silk tops.
timeless 14-karat gold jewelry, and so much more. The best part? All Quince items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. We love that.
Now I've got a lineup of timeless pieces, comfy t-shirts, nice comfy pants and shorts that keep me looking effortlessly chic year after year. I am one fashionable dad. The
And the best part about all Quint's items is that they are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They partner directly with top factories, and that's how they cut out the cost of the middleman, and they pass that savings on to us. I also found out that they do home goods. I'm talking rugs, linens, towels, carpentry.
curtains, silverware, flatware. And so Rachel and I have been building for like three or four years now a guest house. It is the never-ending project, but we're going to cap it off with Quince Home Goods. They are so lovely. We're going to use their rugs. We're going to use their towels, their linens. We're going to go full out Quince in the backyard.
Get warm weather ready with Quince. Go to quince.com slash TWU for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash TWU to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash TWU.
I am always trying to do right by my body. So when it comes to my hair and scalp health, finding a product that actually works and is made with clean ingredients always seems like a bit of a trade-off. But with Vegamour, I get products that are made with clean ingredients and give me visibly healthy hair. With Vegamour, I'm able to have visibly thicker, fuller, shinier, longer hair, all without the harsh ingredients.
And every cute pink bottle of Vegamour products are 100% cruelty-free and are never formulated with potentially harmful chemicals like parabens or hormones. I absolutely love their shampoo and conditioner, and I cannot wait to try their value kit, like the Grow Essentials kit, where you get to try even more than one amazing product at a great savings.
When you sign up for a monthly subscription, you save more, you never run low on products that you need to take care of your hair. The key is consistency in your routine for the most beautiful, healthy-looking hair. Fun fact: Vegamore sells one bottle of growth serum every 15 seconds on their website. That's how good this stuff is.
Give your hair the power of the little pink bottle with Vegamore. For a limited time, That Was Us listeners get 20% off their first order by going to vegamore.com slash TWU and use the code TWU at checkout.
That's V-E-G-A-M-O-U-R dot com slash T-W-U. Code T-W-U to save 20% on your first order. V-E-G-A-M-O-U-R dot com slash T-W-U. Code T-W-U. ♪
I want to talk a little bit about your writing process because I think you approach things a little bit different than a lot of writers I know. Like you seem to just put pen to paper and start writing. Like you don't outline things beforehand. You're like, it's easy if I just write it and show it to people, you know? Because that's what you did with the potty. It's like, I wrote this thing. I want you to take a look at it. Not like, oh, I have a sketch of an idea of a thing that I want to get. Talk to me about why. Is that just easier for you? Has that always been your process? Yeah. I mean, part of it's
I'm untrained and lazy a little sometimes. But it's true. So it's two parts. One is on a business level, years ago I stopped. I said I'm going to no longer pitch ideas or pitch a sketch of an idea because what happens is somebody will want to make it.
And then I will write it, but I have lost control of it already. If they have notes, if they want to make it with a certain actor or a certain director, I am not in control of it. It started at a younger point in my career when I didn't have as much of the control as I have now, where I'm less worried about that now. Because I know even if I was to tell someone an idea, they were saying, we're going to pay you to go write it. I'd feel confident I could control it a little. When I was younger, I just watched things go astray a bunch of times on me.
um not in a bad way i was i always was lucky enough to work with nice people but like i was not the person in control and sometimes they worked out like john and glenn directed our pilot yeah i wanted to direct crazy stupid love when i wrote crazy stupid lover i had that in my mind's eye but i had never directed these guys got it they were absolutely they made it what it is you know what it is and sometimes it works more often than that it didn't you know and so um
But so yeah, at a certain point earlier in my career with film and TV, I was like, I'm going to write stuff, give people the script and say, this is what I want. I want Mandy to be in it. And if you don't like that, that's fine, but I'll find somebody else who wants to do it that way or I won't do it. So that's like the business side of it. I just stopped doing that. Baller move. Okay. And I always recommend that to young writers, but it comes from a place of like,
a little bit of privilege and a little bit of like, you have to trust on betting yourself. 'Cause if you spend a year writing something that you don't get paid by, the end of the rainbow might be nobody wants it. - Sure. - And you've wasted a year. And sometimes it's better to get, you know, have a career and you have a family and get paid to write something, even if it's gonna go in the shitter and then you have to do the next thing. So it's a bouncing. But then as a writer, I never have,
really outlined for myself very much, which is not good. - It's worked out okay for you. - But I wind up doing it in television series, even at the best, like as an example, like when we get to like the Memphis episode of the first season of the show, like I wrote that episode, but that was outlined
I was so busy at the time. I was writing so much during that first season. I was given by the writer's room an outline of a story, like beat by beat. Now I kind of dodge and weave through that. In television series, you wind up outlining quite a lot. That's the whole thing, breaking the story, 'cause you're doing it with the room. But when I'm kind of writing television series at the start, you and I are doing a new one.
like the first couple, I just write them. And then I start figuring out as it gets deeper. So yeah, so I don't do a lot of outlining. Here's my next question because you'll come up with things and I think the writers when they'll call them like Dan storms or something like that where
Something doesn't seem to like make sense. - It's so dishing. - Wait, something- - It's a hashtag. - Something doesn't seem to make sense. So I'm gonna reference the painting. And I remember Dan was telling me, he was like, "So Kevin does this thing where he paints before he like does it." He's like, "It's hard to explain, but like it all makes sense and it'll be great." And I'll be like, "All right, bro, whatever you say." Like, I'm like, "Painting? Kevin paints?" Like, I remember the first time he said it to me, I was like, "Okay." And then you watch it and you're like, "Mother, how did like-"
It's so sort of like, it seems like it's gonna go left, but in your mind you have such
assuredness about like, no, I know I'm going to land. It's like, where does that come from? I don't know. The painting, that was a big breakthrough moment though for the show where I was like, we were in that, we were in that again, that, and that's that same episode where I believe Chrissy pulls out the earth. And so that was where like the show was hitting the zeitgeist. I was like, okay, like we need to, I was like, I want to tell, like, I want to say what the show's about. I think that was, there were a couple, I wrote,
any showrunner writes a majority of their show, right? There can be a gazillion. That first year I did a lot of writing, right? And then at a certain point though, after the first, I think, I don't remember if I wrote the first three or four, but then at a certain point you start turning over scripts to other writers. And that's where you really start having to figure out like, what is this thing? You know, I'm not writing everything word for word anymore. And I remember like we were struggling on that part of the script. And I was like, this is where
so i don't know i don't know where the conference comes from i i was like i had this idea of like i want kevin the character who's not the one with the verbal skills to speak to the big grand philosophy of the show to secretly have something inside of him and i want him to try and express it to a little kid and i started pitching it to the writers and it just kind of came out and they all like were looking at me blank
I was like, no, it's gonna work. Not all, but I was like, we'll do that. - And then you made them all watch you paint for like three hours. - Yeah, yeah. - Like this, like this. - I don't know why with this show particularly, and when I'm doing stuff that's good, hopefully on our new show that we're doing Sterling, but like I can kind of see it in my head. I can see the scene. - Yeah. - And then I just kind of have to fill in the words a little bit. And then sometimes I can't get that. And then that's when things are not working. I was like, oh, I want him to say,
this is us for the first time in a surprising way. Like not all together, but like he says, I think this right here is us. I don't know, I just saw it. I could just see it and then I wrote it. And sometimes I can't. It's a balancing act that the show...
Not only walks immediately, but continues through six seasons. And I've talked to a lot of people about this. Walking right up to the line of heartfelt sincerity without tipping over into...
saccharine or overly sweet. You give something like that and it's not, it is the writing, but it's also, like you said, who you give it to. You give it to Kevin and the way Justin delivers things, it's...
It's just incredible. Well, I think it's a, and it's a balancing act. And it's like in every moment, that's all I would monitor. And again, this show tipped from the very beginning, there's a segment of the popular television watching population that the show tipped too far into that sentimentality from the very beginning. It's just not for them. It's not where they live. And so it's like kind of like the people who more have our,
right? Which I find to be in the middle is like, where's it tipping past that? Sure. Like, would it have been too much? A challenge like, like being that sincere. Yeah. There's, there's a place for sentimentality. If you're, if you're actively engaged in relationship, if you're actively engaged with challenging yourself and the show, I think the show for a lot of people was like,
pushing them to to go there within themselves within their relationships within their own families and even even there we talked about it even certain people who who loved the show couldn't continue because it was tough
at things that were too, were too difficult. I mean, family is the thing. It's the, it's not the emotion. If the show had been about golfers but had the same degree of like, like emotionality and done it the same way, people wouldn't have had that pullback. It's family is tough. It's like people have lost older people our age. A lot of them have lost a parent or two
Younger people, it's a lot to think about all this big stuff. You know, people harbor ill towards their parents, harbor love towards their parents, vice versa. It's like a lot. It's confrontational. Yeah. To be presented with it and have it mirrored back to you. Yeah. A little too close. Yeah. Because it's interesting because the emotionality of the show, which has always mystified me, like the conversation around the crying. Yeah.
It's just so around us with... I mean, I have a four-year-old now. He's taking once in a while in his little Spider-Man backpack. He'll take a little car toy home from school. Okay. And Kate noticed it. And she sat him down and she said, my wife, and she said...
Dude, you can't that's not good and on Monday We're gonna have to you're gonna take the car back and you're gonna tell the teacher you're sorry and you know And and you'll tell and but that's kind of I know you don't mean to but that's kind of not good. That's stealing I Coins it happened to be a day. This would be so in this is us if we were starting. Yeah And so why are you laughing? I'm getting in trouble for now So the other day
It was a rare morning where we both were taking him to school. Normally it's one of us. We had to actually go volunteer for something at school. For whatever reason, we're both in the car. And as we're walking up, Ben's like very quiet and he's got his little backpack on. I'm like, "Hey, it's taking a while to get out of the car." Kate was getting out of the car. And she's like, "He's really amped about this apology. He's nervous." And it's like, "I don't know which teacher he's going to say it to. We don't know what's going to happen."
And we're walking into school and there's a teacher, this very sweet young woman, Katie, who has actually coincidentally has a kid in the class. She goes, "Good morning, Ben." And he just turns to Katie, we were not ready for it. He goes, "Now, now, now." He wants the toy, right? He wants his backpack and he wants the toy. He goes, "Give it to me now."
And so she, oh, okay. And he decided it was gonna be Katie, the first teacher he saw. And she gives him it. And in a very like loud adult voice, he said, "I stole this car from school on Friday. I wanna tell you that will never happen again. And I'm very sorry, teacher Katie. I'm very sorry. I promise it will never happen again."
Kate starts crying. The teacher starts crying. The teacher's crying because he was just like so kind of brave and just owning it. And no one had heard him use his voice. He's kind of a shy kid. And everyone, I wasn't crying, but like, like people were like crying. And I was like, everything's fucking emotional. This is us was more emotional than that. They're crying over him returning a stolen, like a queen toy. You know, like, I don't know. That was my, that's my take on. You know,
You know why I was laughing? I'm laughing because I think you and I was legitimately surprised when people keep coming up to us and saying, like, you guys make me cry all the time. And I'm like, I guess that's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm sorry. Thank you. You're welcome. Because it comes from Dan, who has such a defined sense of humor, right? And Dan doesn't lead with his emotionality.
Right? He sort of leads with his intelligence and his humor and whatnot. And so the fact that the show kind of became known for this thing that elicits from you. I'm curious for you because like, I've seen Dan cry twice.
Like, I think he cries the least out of everybody. - Oh, for sure. - Out of all of us. Like we will all be like, "Uh-huh." Everyone's like, when Dan had us up to the place when it was in our final season and he gave us a really sweet gift, I was like, "Oh, Cheeks is crying."
Do you remember this? - Yes. - The sweetest thing in the world. And so I'm curious. - Can you stop a podcast midway through? - You know what? I changed my mind. I don't wanna do this. - For you, like, is there,
- To write the show, did it ask you to tap into a vulnerability that you don't typically share? - But I think I do. I mean, I think your assessment is correct, but like, I think like, I do actually sometimes get my eyes tear up when I was writing this stuff.
Because that's probably my first time doing it. I remember feeling it a few times. I remember you saying that to us. You'd message us on the group text and be like, guys, this episode. Yeah, once in a while it would get me. And so, yeah, I mean, I think my dad's not a crier at all. I don't think I've ever seen him cry.
But after the pilot aired when we were in the Mexican restaurant doing the live tweeting for the premiere, I remember very vividly. I love that it's the Mexican restaurant. That's all he said. But it was, right? It was a Mexican restaurant. I think it was a sports bar. It was on Melrose, right? Yeah, it was on Melrose. They had a taco on the menu. No, no, no. It was a Mexican restaurant. I think it was a sports bar, guys. I don't know.
- It did have a sports bar feel, but- - 'Cause there were a ton of TVs everywhere. - There were a lot of TVs. - Yeah. - But it was called El Cholo or El- - Something, yeah. - I'm telling you. - I remember Sterling had his Emmy, right? And he was waving it around. - I'm telling you, it was a Mexican themed sport bar. - The wings are dangerous to move around. You gotta keep it contained. - Anyway, we'll cut this out.
My dad called after the pilot ended and he was hysterical. Whoa. He was really crying. And he was like, and my dad's normal routine in my career, it's a funny routine. My dad gets one paper to this day. He lives in Florida now. And he gets the New York Post. And anytime I would have a movie opening up or anything, he would call me like, well, you got another shitty review in the post. Yeah.
Thanks, Dad. Dad, I'm going to send you a different newspaper. It's not like you receive at the premiere of Cars. It was the biggest, I mean, technically the biggest premiere of all time. It was at a racetrack. It was the most people to ever attend the movie premiere. It was my first movie. And I flew my mom and dad out, and they were divorced. It was, I think, their first time seeing each other, plus their significant others. We were sitting with Paul Newman. They both fell asleep during the movie. Yeah.
So my point being... They're not the demo for cars. My point being...
They are not people who just like shower you with platitudes. And so my dad though, he called, he was crying. And I remember I could, I was like, hey, what's going on? And he's like, we have a bunch of people over to watch the new show. And he's like that. And he just, he kept going. He was like, he would say, through tears on the phone, he would be so embarrassed about this story. I can cut this part. But he would say, he was saying, you're a good person. You're a good person through his blubbering.
And I always felt that more than emotion or things, I felt like people felt decency coming from the television show and from the cast. And I genuinely feel like through the writing and then through the cast, it felt like good people were making something, I think. And because like...
because and to to a person like the cast is filled with good people and it's like and so I always felt that like the show never checked quite the cool box like not that but it did and that irritated people because it would win the awards and we were at all the shows to be in on a network TV show and we were all sitting at the Golden Globes and you guys were winning the SAG multiple times thing as a cast but like
It was an interesting thing that like we were able to thread that needle. And I think it speaks to the what people like want. You know, I don't know. I thought more than emotional, it was like,
people can recoil against decency. Most of your leading cool shows are anti-heroes, right? I always thought like in a weird way and I loved Succession, but I thought like Succession is the mirror to This Is Us. It is about three siblings, right? Vying for their, four siblings, but vying for their family.
- Shout out to Alan Ruck. - Right, their father's attention to be the primary person in a family. It's about parents and children. It's about generations, even though they're not going back and forth in time. I mean, there was a lot of connection, but the shows could not be obviously more different. And that's not to say bad people made the other one, but there was something in the water on this one. I don't know. - Well, again, it's confrontational. Decency is difficult. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Like to just write
your brother off or to just not make the phone call to your dad. - To not find your biological father. - To not find, is, is. - To not confront your mother about choices she made. Like, yeah, I mean, it's an endless list. - Yeah. - We'll be right back with more "That Was Us."
Every year, we all pledge to save more and spend less. But how are you supposed to save when you're paying inflated prices for everyday essentials like gas and groceries? You can't just cut those purchases out of your budget.
But now, thanks to a 2024 money-back hack, you can get cash back from them with Upside. Upside is an incredible app for anyone who buys gas, groceries, or dines out. With Upside, I get cash back on every purchase. It's my secret weapon for staying on track with my savings goals. This morning, I used Upside for the first time. I went and filled up my car, the Pearson Family Wagoneer, and I got 65 cents off per gallon.
It was incredible. I just found the nearest gas station, found the nearest rebate that they offered, paid for the gas the way I normally do. I let the app know that I bought there, claim my money, and my cash back goes right to my app. To get started, download the free Upside app. Use the promo code TWU and get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas. Next, claim an offer for whatever you're buying on Upside.
Then pay as usual with a credit or debit card, follow the steps in the app, and get paid.
And yeah, some credit cards or loyalty programs do this, but you get three times more cash back with Upside. Plus, even better, Upside will not sell your personal information to third parties. This is big. This is a huge deal because they know that your information is a vital part of the trusted relationship that you are going to have with Upside. Upside users are earning hundreds of dollars a year. That's probably why they have a 4.8 star rating on the App Store.
After years of fine print contracts and getting ripped off by overpriced wireless providers, if we've learned anything, it's that there's always a catch.
So when I heard that for a limited time all Mint Mobile wireless plans are $15 a month when you purchase a three-month plan, I thought, okay, what's the catch? But after talking to them, it all made sense. There isn't one. Mint Mobile's secret sauce is that they sell wireless service online. They don't have retail stores or salespeople. Instead, they deliver premium phone plans directly to you. They also bring you the emotional support hotline directly to you.
We have Mint Mobile. They give us unlimited minutes. Then we get to connect with our fans as much as we want to. Now, why is it important to save on a mobile plan? That's like asking, why is it important to save money, period? Because it doesn't grow on trees. The more money in your pocket, the more things you can do for your life, for your family, for yourself. Don't throw your money away. So you got an overpriced wireless plan?
Your monthly bills freaking you out? Got unexpected overages because you didn't read the fine print? Well, now you can say bye-bye. Mint Mobile to the rescue with premium wireless plans for $15 a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all of your existing contacts.
Ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile's limited time deal and get three months of premium wireless service for $15 a month. To get this new customer offer and your new three-month unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com slash TWU. That's mintmobile.com slash TWU. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com
♪♪♪
What was the most challenging episode or time in the show's history for you? That's a good question, Mandy. I haven't thought on that. I want you to hear your response first. I mean, we can think about obviously all six seasons. On a workload level, the first season and into the second was so hard because it was just all new, but it was also so exciting, but it was also so crazy. How often did you feel overwhelmed? I mean, I remember having conversations with you where you're like in it. Did you ever feel like I can't do this or did you feel like I just have to figure out how to do this?
keep no it just it took a toll like i mean it was just like uh it was just it was so much i i didn't i during that first season i also had a second tv show that was going and i was prepping a movie that i was going to direct during the hiatus like i was editing the memphis episode and everything else from new york where i was prep we were already done shooting i was prepping a movie so this is like like a lot for me personally show wise like the first season was like
everyone was like, are you enjoying it? It's so successful. And I was not enjoying any of it. I was just like keeping my head on straight and trying to survive. And it wasn't that I wasn't enjoying it, but it was just like, I mean, like, I mean, we had so many things, like you guys had them throughout, but I mean, I don't do press. I don't do like, I don't do like events where, I mean, like it was like nonstop. And I was like, you're not present for any of it. You're nauseous the whole time.
I remember standing with Mandy at the first one, which it was at that Barker Airline hangar thing. It was like the Critics' Choice Award. It was our first award show. And I remember Chris Casper's our publicity guy coming up to me and be like, "Hey, I just want to give you the layout of the stage. If you win, you'll be the one going up and speaking. I want to show you the path."
And I was like, what's going on? If we win, he's like, Dan, you might win. Do you have a, and I was like, no, I don't. I don't, I've never been to one. I mean, it was my first time in a tuxedo since my prom. You know what I mean? And like, and like, so. Same tuxedo. Same tuxedo.
He would come up to me and be like, Sterling, if we win, you get up and you say something because you can do this stuff. I'm like, you need to say something, man. So the first season was challenging in that regard. I think the third season was really challenging in terms of being like, that's our first season where we have to now keep this thing real.
with more storylines we're inventing now. - You jumped to Vietnam. - Jumped to Vietnam and marital crises with I Believe You Guys and You Guys. - We'd also gotten the three season pickup at season three. - After three. - After three, okay, gotcha. - But three was the first time, what I had in my head, in my soul was the first two seasons of the show and the last season of the show. I could have done this as a three season show, but I always knew six, that it was,
it would, it could bear to live longer. We appreciate that. It would mean, it would, as a piece of commerce, it needed to last longer. The audience appreciates it. We all thank you. But so that, that was the first year of going, okay, how do we invent? Sure. Where are we going to go? We're going to go to Mandy and Miley Younger and their courtship. We're going to go to Vietnam. We're going to go do stuff. We're going to start fucking up Toby and Kate and Randall and Beth and like do all that stuff because we have to, we're going to give Justin a new love insurance. And like, that was the first time we were off like
the core mission of the show and now like making really cool stories but that were going to last for multiple seasons until we could get to my ending. Was there one particular episode though that you just like found so hard for whatever reason maybe it was like it was so emotional it was just like a tough nut to crack like I remember the first season of the third first episode of the third season was hard it was when you and Milo go to a carnival and like oh yeah and I was just going and um
- Like our first date. - Our first date. It was just like a new timeline. I was like, is this big enough? We did the big Frank O'Harris thing with that premiere episode. - He's in our new show. The guy who plays Frank O'Harris is in our new show. - Holy shit, I knew I recognized him. - You didn't realize, girl, yeah. - That's Rafael, oh shit.
I gotta tell them. Anyway. It's like a fever dream, right? Yeah. So that was a challenging one. I just remember going like, is this, I mean, the first episodes, I mean, we had the pilot, the first episode of season two. The first episode of season one, the first episode of season two ended with like the reveal of you screaming in the car and showing the burned down house as you bang on the steering wheel. And the audience went batshit, right? Yes. And I was like, oh, season three, I don't.
quite have it. I don't quite have that thing because we don't, you can only, you know. And so I was like, so that was a challenge. The premiere of season five when we decided to attack. That's the one that I was going to talk about. Yeah, that was very, very stressful and hard like when we were going to attack. And I hear that more from the
from the other crowd there, like, I get a lot of that. Like, I liked your show, but then you guys went woke, they say, which is like code word for whatever it is, I don't know. But like, I'm like, really? Like, it was such an artful, I thought, touch. But like, anyway, like- - Agreed. - What, so I remember talking to you in the midst of the pandemic and Black Lives Matter,
The ultimate decision for you to incorporate it into the show was based on what? Like, 'cause some shows were trying to like make alternate realities and you decided like, "No, this is the world we live." We were the first show back on television, basically, based off the way we were gonna go. We were still the biggest show on commercial network television. So it felt like a really big choice. We were like writing the episodes.
literally writing the episodes when people were still like millions of people are dying and we were washing down vegetables outside of our house. Like Lysol, like that's when we had to make the decision. And it just like, I think I've been reading a lot now with kind of the immediacy of COVID in the distance, um,
with the immediacy of COVID now years behind us, like how much that period like really screwed up this world and this country psychologically in ways that we don't think about anymore, but that it did. So when we were making that, having those conversations and making those decisions, like it was just so raw. I couldn't fathom how we were gonna put that onto television two months later and not address it. And I also thought, and the deciding factor for me, because there was a lot of debate
in our writers room. And the deciding factor for me was that we could talk about George Floyd, but we could also own the pandemic in a way that other shows couldn't because it was very specifically a family pandemic, right? Like, um, the results of the pandemic and the results of the racial reckoning that the country was having at that moment in time were particularly unique for us in our show. Yes. We had, uh,
black kid growing up in a white family. So like, are you kidding? But we're not going to talk about the world events right now. Like in a show that has to go six seasons, like I could make Beth and Randall fight again or we could talk about something. The reality of the world that we're living in. Because we were going to get into talking about Randall reckoning with his racial background as it related to the family anyway. So like why not
make it thing. And then in terms of the, the masking or the pandemic, which we, we, we tried to treat artfully, but like, we're like, that was where I had a, I was having, you were having kids around the same time, Mandy and Sully. Like my dad didn't see our kid for a year. Cause it was just too fraught to travel and whatnot. Like, um,
I was having a baby during the midst of the pandemic. I was not at doctor appointments with my wife. I was like Sully was during that. I was in the car, in the parking lot, listening to the doctor through FaceTime, often losing reception. Kate had to get induced a couple of weeks earlier
early, there was nothing wrong, but some things were starting to go astray and everything wound up fine. And I remember hearing the doctor telling her that I was making out every other word in the parking lot and couldn't understand what was being said. So that was like our experience of having a baby. And I was like, how unique it is. Like if we were doing a cop show or not even a cop show, if we were doing a show about home renovations, maybe it wouldn't made as much sense to do it. But like, it felt like it was so, so that was a big challenging moment for us. - That was going on social,
which you have to like do at your own caution, right? There were so many people who were delightfully effusive for the way in which we tackled that 501 premiere. And as many people were like, if I wanted to watch the news, I would turn to the news. You know what I'm saying? But the thing is nobody was like indifferent, like, oh, that was okay. It was like,
very divisive. Yeah. Well, it was also a really powerful episode and a really kind of crisis point moment for the country. And so, yeah, I think that was definitely the only time we were very polarizing. Yeah. I think. Which I thought was cool. The other hard part was just the ending, I think. The last two episodes, the last two or three episodes, like just getting that. It wasn't hard. It was just like,
I was like, you get in your own world where you're like, "I'm doing the most important thing in the world. I'm ending. This is us." Right? And you're like, so you really want to get it right. You know what I mean? And so that was like that last season, I was losing a lot of my senior level writers who I relied on were starting to, as you do, they're starting to get pulled in a lot of different directions because they're preparing for their life beyond the show. Not that they weren't there.
And I found myself just like with a very kind of it felt like reverting back to the first season a little bit in that final season as a whole. Like, I'm kind of here. I want to do this right. I still have them up. My son asked me the other day whether I had 18 little, you know, the little sticky notes. What are they called? Stick them.
Post-its. Post-its. But you know how they're the small ones? I had 18 in three rows of six on my wall in my home office because that's where I was mainly doing work from because of COVID stuff still at that time. And each time I would complete an edit, I would cross it off.
And because I was like, I'm going to, I was just like treating it like the last lap of the last mile of a marathon. And I was like, I'm going to end the show right so that I can feel it was done right. And I feel proud of it. And I was like, but it's going to kill me. And I just was like, and I was just like so anxious about the 17th episode and are the reveals all going to work? Is the train all going to work? And then like the 18th episode in the home footage. And when I was done, that was a huge moment of relief. I'm sure.
That was probably, when you ask what the hardest one is, probably ending it was the hardest. Not because I was like emotional and crying, but more because I was like, I really felt like, I really, I was like, God, this has been, it's really been eight years of my life. And thousands of people work on the show. And then so many people watch it. I'm like, I have to try and get this right. You did some things. You did. Like the scenes that we had shot, I don't know if you, I had shot a scene with, yeah,
with William, Randall and William, that you put in that final episode? Or was it in '17? - Yeah. - And I was like, "I forgot I'd shot this thing." - Oh, sure. - And I feel like we all had like a couple of those, like, 'cause you'd been saying like, we would get on the call sheet, there'd be like season six, whatever. And you're like, "What are we shooting?" And then you shoot it, and then like, the fact that you had foresight to do that, man.
That's pretty impressive. It was the beginning of season three or four? It was three. Yeah. That we shot and banked a bunch of what was eventually shown in the final, final episode. Because you wanted the kids. The main reason was the kids. Sure. I didn't want the kids. You know, in retrospect, if you could have told me, like, do it all over again, I would have...
taken another beat at the very beginning of season one when everybody was so little and shot like unendings amount of footage. I would have taken like two, three weeks before we started production because then you would have had that magic trick to go to all the time or all the time in the final season. Because even we get older, you know what I mean? Like you can feel like everybody just like maturing and it was like cool to get it early. But yeah, we did that. That's how you keep Walt on the island, man.
That's how you keep people on the island. Shoot them early. Yeah. Good footage. Yeah. Just real quick, do you want to talk at all about the title? Because when we... Yes, that is a good point. When we first ran the pilot, we had like the untitled Dan Fogelman project and then the working title was sort of 36. How did you wind up...
Coming with this well the original title was 36 and I just actually somewhat some friend who's an author asked for a family member like a signed original pilot script and my sister just gave me the original pilot script I signed it and it says 36 on it. He was like what the I Had I had done you'll see in my office. It's a big joke but all my early spec script movies like crazy stupid love and
and a couple others i'd never named them because i just like i hate titles and uh so they're all called 36. so i was like at the last minute i was like so all over town when you're shooting you would see udf signs that mean untitled damn full yeah and i was like so tired of it i was like i'm just gonna throw a tie because because then you'll that once you do that you'll never land on a title
Because if you don't have a title to start, you'll never have a title. No one will ever agree on it. I put together, I'll send it to you guys if you want for the podcast. It was, I play it for people. I'll play it for you guys after we're done here because I save it also. I put together the most cocksure like
that was so brazen. And I was like, you've seen it? Like I was like, God, I was the cockiest. I should have been kicked out of a window. I put together a promo to try and sell them on This Is Us. And it's like throughout the years, NBC has brought you some of the finest television in the world.
And it's like, it would say, this is comedy. And it had clips from Seinfeld and all their shows. And then it was like, this is drama. And it was like, it was like the West Wing and all their best shows. And then I was like, coming this fall, a new show to add to the pantheon of classic. And it said like, this is love. This is laughter. It was all this stuff that came back. Yeah, it's really good. It's great. But I was like,
I was like, I was putting the show on a stage with all these other shows. And I was like, we hadn't even aired yet. I mean, when I was sending them this stuff. I mean, it was like. But that's genius marketing. When I made my first cut of the pilot, I put that big paragraph at the beginning that explains, uh,
how people are born in the same time. And that writing didn't have the words, this is us in it initially. So I rewrote it slightly so that that font could kind of shrink down into the, this is us. And I was like, then when it's attached to the pilot and the pilot is playing well, and they ask the audience questions after the show, it will work. The writing of the show,
Besides, the title is one thing, but people come up to me constantly. You will always reference us as actors, but they come to the actors and be like, dude, the writing on that show is insane. Exceptional. So take a bow. Thanks, man. You're welcome. No, seriously, if you could take a bow, that's how we end. It's part of the podcast. That was us. Before you guys go, what can you tell us about the new show that you're working on?
- Just plug your new show a little bit if you can. - Yeah, plug the new one. - We don't even know the name of it. - We don't know the name of it. Sterling's in it. It's good, it's very different. - It's a Secret Service agent on presidential detail. We can say, yeah, it loses the president. - A retired ex, like a retired ex-president. - Yeah, retired ex-president and whatnot. And so he's sort of trying to figure out how he died, why he died, what was the motivation behind it? It's a great, it's an ensemble
Wonderful actors. We can't say too much. Dan always has some sort of... It's kind of like a political thriller, murder mystery, but there's a lot of secrets behind the murder and what's gone on to get them there. And when it is findable, it will be found on... Hulu. Hulu.
Only eight episodes. I think this is like the eight episodes, three seasons. So like what he would have done to This Is Us is what he's doing with this. It's so much easier. So much easier. Not 18. My golf game's better. A lot of the same directors. A lot of the same crew. John and Glenn are directing our pilot. So we have- A lot of the crew too. Yeah.
- Cool. - Amazing. - The crew is really one of the best feelings for me being on set is sort of being surrounded by people that you've known for eight years. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know, Tim sound like Crick is there. It is, Shani's there, Koi is there. Like all of our crew from the show. - Everyone's back together. - It's it. - I love that. - We shoot on 31 and 32. - Amazing. - Which are the two of the sets that we shot. - It's pretty trippy. Susan came down the other day.
and was like watching Sterling doing it. And it was like all on the same stage. She's like, this is a trip. Like this is, this is...
- I bet. - It was really weird. - Well, Dan, thanks for coming to talk to us. - Yeah, thank you. - And hopefully, if maybe down the line there's-- - Anytime you need me, I'm here. - We would love to have you back to talk about the show. - I will come to Sterling's living room anytime you guys need me. - I love that it's mine. - It's yours. - It's nobody else's. - Please subscribe, call up your family and friends, have 'em check out this show and we can go through the show again together. Rate, review, subscribe. - That was us. - That was us.
Thank you, Dan Fogelman. Thank you, Dan Fogelman. This was so fun. This was a treat. That Was Us is filmed at The Crow and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions and Sarah Warehunt. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith.