Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
On today's episode of That Was Us, we'll be discussing Season 1, Episode 4. Jack and Rebecca take Kevin, Kate, and Randall to the community swimming pool. Kevin auditions for his first Broadway play. Toby bumps into his ex-wife at a restaurant. And William is mistaken as a loiterer in Randall's neighborhood. Are you looking to take control of your skincare routine and discover a product that redefines anti-aging technology?
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Welcome back, friends. Welcome. Good to see you all. Good.
- Good to see you as well, I love this. - Another episode of That Was Us, man. We're delving into 104. - 104, the pool. - Working title, the pool. Lot of days at the pool. - I was about to say, rewatching this episode, I was like, wow, had I known then what I know now, just how much time we as a collective Pearson family were gonna spend at this pool,
Even in the final season, like there was so, we went back to this pool many a time. Yeah. It was in Long Beach. It was a trek. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We spent a lot of time there. We directed some of the last, the episodes that Justin and Milo and I directed together in the final season. We were back.
Yeah, yeah. A lot of deep connection with the Pearsons in this pool. It was like a seminal part of their childhood. In season one, like on this particular episode, were they long days? Were they short days? Were they hectic? Were they pretty... They were long days. There were hectic days. I mean, we're talking about working with these incredible children who are very new to being...
in front of the camera and obviously the whole- - They're also children. - They're children. - With a pool. - They're eight. - With a pool. - With a pool with lots of other children that are working. So it's like, it was, you know, had its own challenges working with that many extras. - Jeez. - You know, we started filming, I believe this was like in August, I wanna say, so it was still exceedingly hot outside. Everyone was happy to like have any chance to get into the pool when they could.
There was just, this was like the first location shooting for us that I remember was like, whoa, this is chaotic with three kids, all of these extras, two directors. Like it was, there was a lot going on. It felt chaotic re-watching it. As it should have. I mean, that's what they were endeavoring to do, right? The first thing that I remember the episode were with the Pearsons,
The air conditioning's not working. Folks are trying to figure out what's going on. And you see Kate come out in her Care Bear outfit.
- The key. - The key. So sweet. - So cute. - So free and just sort of like liberated, right? - Yeah. - Knowing like how things are, like what her life has in store for her as it goes through, like what was it like just rewatching that scene for you guys? - Yeah, I mean, it brought me back. I absolutely remember filming all of this. It to me was interesting to go back and say like, oh, this is the episode where you start to see
the dynamic between Rebecca and Kate sort of start to solidify and understand the repercussions that it has from childhood all the way into adulthood and why their relationship sort of like sits in the place that it does present day. So that was interesting. And you're right. It's like being a parent now, watching this show back has just entirely new meaning, but I don't have a daughter. My kids are still much younger than the kids are at this particular juncture. Sure.
But it just made me clutch my chest thinking that anybody, anywhere would want to insult or hurt your child purposefully. I completely understand Jack's
Jack's just immediacy of wanting to save his daughter, go talk to those other kids that were rude to her at the pool. That was my immediate reaction. I was having visceral, surprisingly visceral reactions to not just my own childhood, like things popping up,
The interesting cycle of bully and bullied in my life, where I would try to grip back the control or the power and become a bully. By turning it onto somebody else who takes it off of you. And just watching it from all angles. And my son is only three and has already been bullied at a park by older girls because he was wearing pink shoes. He loved pink.
And that was like where I talked to Rach. I was like, listen, Rach, I'm working on myself. I'm going to grow. But right now you have to handle this stuff because I will lay into those girls. I could feel it coming up like I want to step to them like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, miss. Do we have a problem?
Like, I don't know how to deal with this situation. I didn't know how to deal with it when I was a kid. Yeah. I definitely haven't figured out how to deal with it now. Sure. It's all happening in real time. Yeah. And so as I was watching the episode and I could, she comes out in her bathing suit and I'm like, oh, right, this episode. Yeah. Where she has to go through this with her peers was just, I was surprised at my reaction. And watch her reckoning that like, oh, wow, this is her first time.
realization that she is different and maybe not in a way that she wants to be and this is something that is going to haunt her for the rest of her life is gutting. - So here's an interesting side note. I'm gonna catch you guys off guard. I can remember a point in time in my life when I was young, maybe eight or nine or something, I had to do shirts and skins in basketball. And I did not wanna be skins 'cause I did not like the way that I looked.
I did not like the way that I looked. And it was one of those moments, like real moments where I was like, I'm going to make sure that never happens again. Really? Yeah.
For real, for real. Yeah. For real, for real. Like, you know, like, was baby fat? You know what I'm saying? Whatever the situation was, I was uncomfortable in my skin. And I was like, no, never again. As a metaphor, it is those moments where as kids we eat from the tree of knowledge. Yeah. And exit the garden. Right. Totally. The innocence. The innocence is gone. The self-awareness. The...
betrayal of a peer, the bullying, whatever it is, that chip away at that. And I guess I'm slowly realizing I'm not sure if it's my job as a parent, scaffolding around that for my kids as long as possible, to let them stay there as long as possible. And I don't know if that's helpful or if that's harmful or how to guide them through all that stuff. Because...
those wounds, they are what make us who we are. Yeah. In the long run. Completely. Yeah. And so helping my kids through those things is so important. And I'm still trying to figure out how to do that. Life be lifin'. And the instinct of as a parent is to sort of like shield your child from life. Yeah.
But you can't. You can't. Right. You know what I'm saying? So you hopefully, you try to give them a safe place to land where they can share what life has been like for them. And you can offer perspective or a different thought because they may just see that event in one particular way. So like staying with the pool for a minute, like I feel like it's kind of because it's sort of the theme that sort of wraps this episode around. It was really interesting for me to see
First of all, I started to really profoundly understand America's love affair with Jack Pearson. Because I'll be damned if this man is not right there. Yeah. Like Johnny on the motherfucking spot for his kids. Yeah. That whole thing with the shirt for his daughter. Yeah. Is remarkable. Yeah.
But even more so for me, watching it as a parent, I was like, when he owns his shit, when he takes accountability with Kevin. Yes. When young little Parker, who did an exceptional job. Exceptional. Comes up and says, like, I was totally forgotten. When Jack is like, you're right. Yeah. You were. We did. My bad. I'm not going to let that happen again. I was like, oh. Mm-hmm.
wow, that's how you do that as a parent. There's a lesson. There's a lesson. I'm like, I will do that one day when my child is old enough and I do something where he feels neglected or something. I've already had to do that. Wait, this line makes me so happy. You're so busy making sure Kate's not eating too much and Randall isn't too adopted and meanwhile, where's Kevin? Oh, guess what? He's dead. Probably.
Ladies and gentlemen, the birth of an actor. Yeah. I mean the character. That is the moment that Kevin Pearson is like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to get on stage. I'm going to get on camera. I'm going to make sure I'm never ignored. People are going to notice me. I will never be ignored for the rest of my life. Oh, what a delivery. But you're right. That accountability. Because it's interesting. To a certain extent, I think I grew up with parents...
I think my mom did apologize and I think my dad did too. But I think a lot of people of our generation may not have grown up with parents who admitted mistakes in the same way. But like that admittance gives permission for the kids to be like, all right, I'm not crazy. I'm not making this up. I'm not gaslighting myself. So you're right. It was a gorgeous moment. It was gorgeous. And obviously the story that he tells Kate about the shirt and making her feel safe and comfortable, like all of that was, you're right. It's so beautiful. And it's a moment where you're like, I understand America.
- "Murka's Love Affair" with Jack Pearson. - Now here too, an understanding of Randall and Rebecca, of a little R&R, because she couldn't find her son
She's wondering where this little dude is. And so it turns out he wants to go to this particular pool because it has a greater presence of black folks there. Right. And sort of starved for that sort of connective tissue to his culture in that way. So you go and you find him. And this was a really delightful moment for me because you have a conversation with my wife. Yes, your real wife. With my real wife, Ryan Michelle Bathay.
And she's like, you have to find him a real barber. Somebody knows how to cut his hair. He had to clear up them razor bumps. And you just see Rebecca like...
"I don't know if I like this broad telling me how to raise." She's like, "This is my child." And like, the fierceness with which it came out, it was like, I was like, "She a mama, right?" And you were not a mama at the time, but you're like, "You're not gonna come after me and my child because this is my boy." - There are a few moments of fierceness in these early episodes from you that I'm like, "Oh no, no, no. Oh no, no. I do not wanna be on the other end of that."
It is real good. It's so defensive, though. I watch it and I'm like, oh, Rebecca. Well, sure. You were allowed that space because you come back and you're like... You're right. Do you have the name of a ball? Yeah. Yeah. You also end up admitting. Yeah. I want my kids to be able to play with your kids. She recognizes the importance. And I...
This episode was revelatory in that way too. I'm like, wow, the conversation that this show is willing to have about race in 2016, well before the giant reckoning that we had as a country. I was like, this is like...
it was so ahead of its time in that sense. I feel like that it was, I was so struck by that. I was so like mystified that like, wow, I knew it at the time. And when I was watching it and doing it and all of that, but like understanding it in context now in 2024, I'm like, this was really like going out on a limb in a way that like no other network show was having these sorts of conversations. And I,
especially with obviously the entire storyline with Randall and William and the reckoning that you have to have with your own sense of, of, of who you are and the fact of not making apologies for being a black man raised by a white parents and living in a white family. Like it just, all of it. I was like, wow, how beautifully woven it was all together. And I think the simple fact is Jack and Rebecca are,
were aware of raising a black son, but they were also like, I think the sort of white
issue of like, we are colorblind. Like, this is our son. And like, maybe the idea of like, we don't have to reconcile with the fact completely that we are raising a black child because he is our son, he is our family. And I think Rebecca's immediate sort of defense of that to Yvette said that very, very plainly. But I love, I love that it comes back around and she's able to admit sort of like, no,
I think this is an important thing that we are missing as parents. Like, we need to know. Like, we know he has to wear sunscreen, obviously. Right. You know, like those. Right? That was a good conversation. Right? He does need sunscreen. By the way, I'm notoriously bad about putting on sunscreens. I need to do much better. This is true. This is true. You're right. I know. We need it. Thank you. I'm sorry. Sun protection.
But that was just, that was a huge takeaway for me that I guess like reflecting now, being a parent, living in 2024, I was like, wow, this show really had something to say. It was just like, it was so immediately challenging. Fourth episode, it was like, boom, we're going to talk about it. I've heard you mention that in interviews actually, that you were almost immediately aware of the importance of Randall's story based on
Yeah. Specifically. To have a primetime network television show where one of your characters is African-American, but knowing that the audience is going to be diverse and white at all, okay? Sure. But that these conversations were not ones that they were necessarily privy of.
until possibly they watch this show. Sure. Right? Like, it's interesting. I've had these moments of seeing families who have an adopted child, transracial adoptee or whatnot, and you'll see how the kid's hair is. And Ryan and I have actually been like...
I want to help them. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want to overstep my bounds or anything, but I was like, this kid needs some moisturizer in his hair. You know what I'm saying? Because you know that they don't know. Right. And they're not doing anything nefarious. It's just, you know what you know until you know more. Yeah. Right? Right. I think, and watching this episode in particular, just sort of like, it's the beginning of Randall grappling with his own identity is. Yes. Because...
And I think William is able to elucidate things in a really lovely way because
Some things are real for Randall and some things are just his projection of how he sees his own blackness. - Yes. - And not enoughness in that, right? That initial confrontation when the security guard goes and Williams is gonna go literally smell the roses. And people are like, you know, we saw him loitering or what have you. I can remember an instance in my youth, I was at a friend's neighborhood when he was affluent
And I was waiting for him to get home. I had driven, and I got there about 20 minutes before him. And the security guard rolled up next to my car and asked me to roll down the window and asked me why I was here. And I said, I'm waiting for my friend. And they said, who's your friend? I said, he's Mark. He's going to be here any moment. And they're like, okay, because it just seems like you're sitting here for an inordinate amount of time. I was like, I didn't know I was doing anything, but clearly I had caught people's attention. So it was a very...
Full circle sort of moment being like on the opposite side and then being on the side of trying to be the peacemaker is a weird sort of like interesting thing because Randall has to live here. These are his neighbors. I'm not trying to rock the boat. But because I'm not trying to rock the boat doesn't mean that I am not acutely aware of my blackness whatsoever.
- All the time. - Sure. - Right? In my family, outside of my family, like I know what it is. When it comes full circle around and there's the moment when he's watching Snow White, his daughter's playing Snow White. - Yeah. - Irony of ironies, she is black, she is playing Snow White, right? And you see that moment when he's just sort of like,
abundantly aware of the white gaze of everybody watching it. And he's wondering, like, I've had people say this, by the way, about American fiction, depending on the audience that they're in. It's like, why are you laughing at this, sir? You're laughing at this because you find it funny? And why do you find it funny? You know what I'm saying? Like, are you laughing with me? Are you laughing at me?
And I feel like that's part of the point of American fiction, too, is when I'm watching it and laughing, why am I laughing at this? Sure. And so when he has that conversation with William and he reveals his journal about meeting the black people and wondering if this black man could be his father or whatnot, and then sort of taking it back to how he parents William.
Like he talks about the love that he has for his parents, which I think is always like very, like there's never a moment of doubt. Hopefully not in the audience's mind, certainly not in mine, of his love for Jack and Rebecca. Yeah. Like zero, zip, you know, there's just certain things that they could not have given him by virtue of who they are. Sure. And so this is the seed that starts to like,
in terms of his not enoughness, his own perception of not enoughness, right? And it sort of drives him in a very intense way until he's able to have like some sort of peace of like, I am enough. I think that happens over the course of the show. He never wants to feel that way again. Yeah, never wants to feel...
Yeah. Well played. But it was such a gorgeous moment because Ron goes... He says, you're doing everything right, son. That broke me. Broke me. Sis, I was watching and I was like, all right, I already done this thing, but he got me too. And he calls you son. He called me son. If you were to...
typify exactly what you wanted to hear as a child coming from your biological father who abandoned you, who's just meeting you, who's now very involved in your life for a concentrated little period of time. His observation to be like, let me just give you this. You're doing everything right. It's like... And who knows if there's such thing? I always wonder, is there such thing as making up for lost time? But in that moment, I was like...
That's what Randall needed, and his dad was there to give it to him. Yeah. Maybe for the first time ever. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It was pretty gorgeous. More That Was Us after this short break. Summer is all about you and your active lifestyle. It's the perfect time to embrace outdoor runs, walks, hikes, strength classes, and any activity that gets you moving. With the longer days and warmer weather, finding the best time to fit in a workout becomes a part of your daily adventure.
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Were these storylines, were these active conversations that you were having with writers and things? Yes, yes. Because I would go into the writer's room and they would either tell me like things that they had planned or whatnot. And I would sort of echo and be like, oh, that's interesting because I've had this life experience. It's been, you know...
something that's close. And so like either my talking about it might've helped to elucidate it just a little bit more, but they were there already on that road. I think, you know, we had in season one, we had Oren, we had Keo Yegun and whatnot, who were both black writers who were sort of sharing their stories and sort of, there was an amalgam of things that sort of came together. And then just, I gotta give Fogelman credit here too, because he's such a brilliant writer and he's also,
has such a lack of ego that like if he needs help in sort of like understanding something to a fuller extent, like you sit there and you see him listen and absorb and be like, oh, that needs to be part. Like it's a wonderful thing. You guys went to the writer's room. Yes. You went. I just went a whole lot. You went a lot. You went a lot. And I think that was because you were talking about in an earlier episode, like not knowing a lot about TV and da-da-da-da-da.
I'd done a TV show called Army Wives, and it was another six-year run of a TV show. And I remember thinking like, oh, I should have gotten more input on this show because if they knew my voice better, they could have possibly written. So I got a second chance. That's amazing to be able to use that information. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would get in the writer's room and be like,
Can I get you guys anything? I didn't know what to do or what to say or how to participate, if I even could. Let's get to you and Kate. Yes, please. Toby and Kate and seeing the X. Yes.
And I want to kind of go through it chronologically because Kate's like, she sees you talking to this pretty woman. She's like, who's that? And you're like, you know, that's my ex-wife. And you could see her face like, huh? Yeah.
How did that? I didn't know that happened like that. And it's interesting because in real time, for both of you, this is, I think, an interesting thing. Because I remember talking to you about season one and people having a really interesting relationship with Rebecca early on vis-a-vis how they saw Jack. Yes. There was love for Jack. And there was like, oh, no. Yeah, arms crossed about Rebecca. And there was love.
"Oh, for Kate." And they're like, "This Toby." - Yeah. - Oh no. And I think it really sort of happens in like, he was married to this woman who had a different figure than Kate's. And they're like, "Can he really be attracted to that and that?" Right? - That was the conversation. - That was the conversation. But I also really loved in this particular episode, it was the first time
that I think we got a chance to see somebody be mad at somebody. And you were pissed, but it was earned. Warranted, yes. You know what I'm saying? Like, it was completely and totally earned, and it wasn't like, I'm getting out of... It was the kind of pissed that's like, I'm still here. I'm not going anywhere. But, like, you can't just do shit. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're bringing up a lot of stuff for me, and when you go through what that breakup...
And did you talk about it? I mean, when Toby was first introduced to me, I had the same questions. I was like, who is this guy? What am I doing with this guy? Yeah. And this is the first episode where you get a little glimpse at how we got here. Way to bring it around. Yeah.
That's a callback. I love it. Early on, season one, there were also a lot of questions about a man playing someone larger than he was. Right. Me wearing a quote unquote fat suit. Sure. And...
And people who wanted to talk about that or write about that were unaware of the fact that this show travels back and forth through time as much as it does, right? I mean, they knew, but they hadn't seen Toby do this. And so what you learn through this story
interaction very quickly is that this man used to be smaller than he is now. - Sure. - He went through something and gained almost 100 pounds. - Yeah. - Which is also where we're introduced to his anxiety and his-- - Depression. - Depression. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Which is when I did have something to talk to the writers about. - Sure, sure. That line about like, I was almost suicidal or maybe not, and then you're like, no, actually-- - Yeah.
That was real. Yeah, why am I softening this? Yeah. I loved that it was the first time we really saw Toby's vulnerability. Because as you said, it's like...
he was this larger than life. Like he was, he was real levity on the show and humor. And there was also the, the giant question mark of like, is, is there like real validity here? Like, does he really, is he here for the right reasons? But to just lay it all out the way you did for the first time, it was like, Oh no, this is someone of substance. This is someone to be taken seriously. Like this is no lightweight. He's lived a life and he has all this experience to back it up. And I was just, I mean, I,
also you're just an incredible actor and it was so fun to watch that, like just that turn for you. Again, like rewatching the show, it's like, oh wow, I didn't know he had those flavors and colors as a person. Like I, I, I, it made, it made you love the character even more. Yeah. Just learning more. He, there was something about allowing that type of interaction to
I remember thinking about this when I was rehearsing it. Like, this is not coming from someone inside the family. Right. Like, this family already four or five episodes in is holy. Like, these characters are set. Sure. Right? And there was something when I read that part was like, okay, this is the writers forming...
not only kind of letting Toby in a little more, giving him emotional access more than just romantic interest. Yeah. It's a similar tone thing that Rebecca does very early on with Jack about like, listen, the tone it down model. Right. I had recently gotten into couples therapy myself. Okay. And it was like such an interesting, again, a lesson. Yeah. In, okay, you're going to fight. How do you fight?
If you're going to have these conflicts, how do you do it well? Right. And how do you navigate it in a way that is not holding anything back, expressing the feelings that you need to express, but also...
Still taking care of the other person. Yeah. Seasons later, people start saying things that are harder to take back. Sure. But in these earlier fights, it's like, okay. And then at the end, this is how they settle. And this is how they land that plane. Yeah. And this is how Toby's sense of humor changes.
is helpful to land this, this fight into a place of, but we're, we're still here. Yeah. Like, you know, because we're fighting doesn't mean anybody's about to blow anything up. It just means that I got to get this out. And it was, it, it felt really good as an actor, honestly, to, to get that, to have that moment. Yeah. With her. It was gorgeous. Yeah. It was gorgeous. I agree with Mandy a hundred percent masterfully executed by you, sir. And, and, and also there's a deep empathy between,
For Kate, if I saw that woman and she was with my man. Oh, yeah. I'm like, what is, who is this chick? And why is she like so. She's perfect. Yeah. What happened? Yeah. Yeah.
It was really funny. Yeah. She was not only beautiful, an incredible actor. Yeah. Played by Natalia Sigliuti. There you go. Again, the way that Dan and the writers instantly can raise a thousand questions without asking anything. Yeah. Just showing you, literally, you don't even hear the conversation. You don't hear a single thing. You just see Toby and us talking. It's like a little hug, you know. Yeah, you see a hug. And you come back to the table. Yeah. Oh, that was my...
Who is that? Yeah. Can we move to Kevin Pearson for a second? Kevin in New York City. You guys, Kevin's audition for this play, it makes me pee on myself. It's epic. You know how hard it is for an actor that good to be that good?
Bad, for lack of a better word? I texted Justin last night. I said, I'm just re-watching the show, and I just wanted to remind you of how brilliant you are in case you forgot. That was it. Because...
And he just texted back, I know. Copy that. I haven't forgotten. He's sitting there. So Janet Montgomery is playing the actress who's like the lead Tony. Olivia, I believe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. British. Totally British. And he's listening to her do the thing. He's like, ah, it's really good. It's a good American accent. It's a good accent. It's like asking an incredible actor to sing off key.
Have you ever had to pretend like you can sing and it still sounds pretty good? It was so good and so awkward and he wanted it so bad. And he talks about, I know what you guys think about, I'm coming in from the West Coast, TV show and movie, I'm here for the right reasons.
Have you early on in your career, have you ever looked back on some of your auditions and be like, what was I doing? Early on in my theater auditions, I came in and sometimes when you audition for theater, there's like eight people sitting behind folding tables. And early on, I'd be like, how you doing? Chris Sullivan next to me and shaking hands with every single one. And one's like, none of them are even looking at you. I'm like, great, bro. That's here to see. Oh, wow.
- It's so awkward. - But his, ugh. - Yeah, that delivery, when he's like, "Uh, let me take that again." - Yeah, like the- - "Let me start over." - The way that it was- - That's one, that's one. - Yeah, back to- - 'Cause he treated it like a camera, like he was- - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can we take it again? Let's take it again. - So good. - God, yeah, Justin's so good. - Okay.
This is also where we meet, for the first time, briefly, Milana Weintraub. Yes. Who plays Sloane, I believe, is her. Yes, who owns AT&T. Yes, she is one of the CEOs. She's the CFO of AT&T. So, wait, okay. So, going back to him being an actor and sort of like, where does Kev fit in? And this is a really interesting thing, I think, for me personally. Well, not me personally, just in terms of like the larger...
conversation about this is gonna feel weird but bear with me sure do white men get to like have problems do you know what I'm saying sure like this when you're this talented this good looking this successful you're handsome you're wealthy you you know have all these things going for you and on the outside it seems like like all the privilege is geared towards you yeah
Do you still get a chance? I'm still a human being who's still living a life. And like, I still have wants and needs and desires. And there's holes that are missing in me that I need to get filled up. And I think it's a really interesting way of like not hitting anybody over the head with it or whatnot, because Kev's not the kind of person who would bring it up himself. Sure. He's not that dude. Like he's going to try to figure out.
how to make things move forward. He brought it up by becoming an actor. By becoming an actor. Yeah. I think it's a really interesting thing. Like, because it's easy. This sounds weird coming from me. I'm going to be honest. To go after white dudes. Go on. Yeah. Period. Point blank period, right? Yeah. But like...
What the show does, I think, is like stops addressing people as a monolith and starts to address them as individuals. Right. This person is looking for this. Right.
Right. Regardless of who you are, black, white, male, female, et cetera, like everybody has something that they're looking to sort of make them feel whole. And I think that the show does a really great job at that. And also, I keep saying this about Justin because...
I think he was one of the few, him and Sue, I think were two of the individuals who did not receive like individual recognition throughout the course of the run of the show, who are both exceptional from beginning to end. - Correct. - So that's, I just wanted to. - Yeah, I think that that is an incredibly astute observation. And I think that it is the characteristic of every character in this show
That that want is so well defined from the beginning. Like you were talking about with Dan about everything from the beginning. Yeah. So fully formed. Yeah. And that is because those wants are so fully formed. Yeah. And how those taking them down from a monolith to an individual. Right. How those wants make them the best version of themselves. Yeah. And the most broken version of themselves. The same want. Sure. Yeah.
can make them the most successful, the most in shape, the most anxiety ridden to the point of panic attack. - Yeah. - You know, that these things are where these characters, the fulcrum on which their life. - Hinged. - Yeah. - We'll be right back with more "That Was Us."
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In this episode, Kevin talks about how he used to do something with Trump for... He judged like a Miss USA pageant. He judged a Miss USA pageant for Trump. And then you have a... There's a Matt Lauer, Savannah Guthrie sort of reference to the thing. Yeah, yeah. It's like 2016. It's so wholesome. Yeah. Relic of the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kev is sort of feeling alone, like, because he has a terrible audition. He knows it. He even goes out with the girl afterwards and they grab a drink. And all of her kindness, I put that in quotation marks, she's like, you shouldn't do this. You should take a class. You should take a class or something like that. And then Justin says, he's like, you're saying this as a friend? She's so good. Yeah, she's great. She's great, right? Yes.
So he reaches out to his sister. She's obviously involved in her own relationship issues at the time. And so he's not able to make that connection. And at the end of the episode, after William and Randall have this wonderful heart-to-heart and sort of come together, Kevin shows up at the door, right? Completely unannounced. And you see this moment between Randall and Kevin like, hey!
Hey, what's up? He's like, yeah, you don't mind if I crash for a little while? And Beth's like, oh, yeah. The times when they have a two-shot with me and Sue are kind of like some of my favorite shots in the show. Because both of us together. When Sue does nothing. Yeah. You can't take your eyes off her. Because the small movements in her face.
Especially when she has something to say, but she's not going to say it. Oh my gosh. And you're like, this is my biological father. He's like, that's a larger conversation. He comes in and shakes his head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, those are the major things. What else do we want to talk about? Go. I mean, the shopping trip. The shopping trip is interesting because...
So he's still harboring in his soul that like, he feels like Williams judging him from the encounter that they had with the security guard and the neighbors early in the day.
But he's going to tell him what my experience of blackness means is that people will question whether or not I can afford things. Sure. Even though I can, they'll ask for my ID, even though they didn't ask for any of the other people's IDs. It means the security guard is watching me a little bit closer than he's watched anybody else in the store. And it's such an interesting thing because whether you're raised by black people, white people, et cetera, when you occupy spaces with people that do not look primarily like you, you draw attention.
And it's an interesting thing because I will say that Randall and I sort of share this particular thing in common. There is a need. I'll say there's a desire, but I'll say there's a need to put people at ease first so you can make sure they hear what you have to say. Interesting. Because there's this understanding that like,
Some people may just on my physiognomy consider me to be a threat. And I have to let them know that I am not a threat in order to sort of move forward with like ease and grace. Brown smiles, you know, and it's part of like who my nature, who I am by nature. But it's also...
I had to make sure that that was my nature to a certain extent in order to just... Navigate the world. Navigate the world. To not be mad all the time. To not be mad all the time. Like Randall says. Like he says, right? Yeah.
So it's really well written. It is. Yeah. So thoughtful. And it's knowing you and knowing Ron. Yeah. I mean, the life experiences seemed, especially rewatching it, and especially knowing Ron better now. Yeah. Like, it seems like his life...
was very similar to Williams in a lot of ways. So it was, that scene hit me a lot harder this time. - Yeah, same. - Than watching it eight years ago. - There's also just like the way Ron would just be present and would listen and he's like, you think I'm judging you.
He's like, I'm not judging you. I'm not in a place where I could even be there to judge you. And like, if you need me to say something to you, I can tell you. And he says, you know, you're doing everything right. Right. Like...
I don't know. I think what you're saying is true too, because he's not a judging person. I think if anything, with where he was with his own sort of health at that time was like, I'm not in a position to throw stones at anybody. So there was a lovely synchronicity between character and actor. And you saw it in his face. It's like, I want to say you're doing this and you're doing that. He's like, I'm not doing that. Mm-hmm.
I'm like, all right, well, in case you were. I'll do it for you. And there's something delicate about the way the writers end that scene, which is...
with a little, I think the flat front. - Yeah, yeah. - The khakis or whatever. - I think that's also Dan's superpower. Like anytime it starts to get too heavy, like he has a joke that sort of lifts you out and is like life is gonna continue, right? We're not gonna end down here. - Right. - Let's get it together. - Spoonful of sugar. - There's a moment when they're going to see Snow White and he starts to talk about the school that he's taking the kids to and all the stuff that they have to offer. He's like, they got a goat.
She got goats. You sold it well. It's good. Thank you. Thank you very much. And we ended the episode with, again, I think it's like an iconic shot. The overhead shot. The symbolism. Everybody together. Mom's reading Misery. She's almost done. But heads on lap.
And children laying down. And as you pointed out, there's this moment of Kevin feeling, you know, sort of isolated because Randall and Kate are already down and Jack grabs him and pulls him in. Brown got a little misty, man. Yeah. There's so much chaos at that pool. Yeah. And there's so much movement and motion and action and vulnerability. Like a pool...
When I'm around a pool with my kids, it's like... Terrifying. Terrifying. I don't know if you guys are getting to this point yet. There's this guy in LA. They call him like the swim guru. I'm trying to think of his name real quick. Oh, there's so many of them. Is he the one who chucks kids over his shoulder? Yes.
And I had my kid go there. Yeah. Because we have a pool. It's like, you want to make sure the kids are safe in the pool. Yeah. You know? And I thought it was a big thing. This guy's a bunch of crap. Within two days, my kid was like... Got it. Found the side. Yeah. But the contrast with that last shot of stillness. Yes. Yes. And Jack wanting to kind of acknowledge the might. Just let me... Would you just...
Like the last page of your book. Yeah. Just let me. Don't comment on the moment. Yeah. Don't. Let it be. Just let it be. And it's so cozy because I only recently had that moment for the first time in my life where, because these kids don't stop moving. They don't. And about maybe three or four days ago, they both just ended up on me.
on me laying I was laying on the floor and they both just stopped they stopped what they were doing and just were on me oh the best and I couldn't I couldn't believe it I could not believe and it was like right after I watched the episode too I'm like like Rach comes in and sits down next to I'm like laying on the floor tears are like falling she's like you okay I'm like
I'm so fine. It's kind of awesome. I'm so fine. It's like, you remember at the beginning of the episode, he's like, I'm going to get chairs for everybody. For everybody. Yeah. And he's like, you see a chair. Mine was hysterical. It was like, chair. And he just get up like a square. Jumped, hopped over the thing. Going all crazy. It was one chair. One chair. One chair at the end because that's really all they needed. It was all we needed. Yeah. I loved that too. It was pretty good. Oh, that was us. That was us. End of doggone episode. Well done, everyone. Please rate. God.
please rate, subscribe, tell your friends. Absolutely. Pass the word around. We're having a good time going through it. Honestly, like I hope people are listening, but I just am enjoying watching the show again and being able to have someone to talk to about it besides my husband. Totally. It's an expensive conversation. Yeah. But this is just for us. I think it's worth it. I do too. It's totally worth it. We don't,
to film it but we're doing it just for posterity we're recording it for audio and we're gonna yeah so in case anybody's interested you guys can join in on this conversation yeah please reach out to us yeah our phone number is 412 501 3028 yeah or send us a little video or a little audio message at our email that was us pod at gmail.com we want to hear from you yeah indeed we would love that hi gang
Thanks guys for joining us. We appreciate it. So much fun. See you next episode. That was us.
So we are back with one of our favorite segments of our episodes, the emotional support hotline presented by our friends at Talkspace. Check out your insurance coverage and you can start speaking to a therapist today at Talkspace.com slash TWU. Now again, let us be clear, crystal clear. We do not claim to be therapists, but we would love to talk to you. Shall we call somebody back? Let's do it.
Let's do it. And shout out, by the way, to Mint Mobile for the unlimited phone plan. Let's do it. Okay. Do you have one, Sully? Yes, I've got one here. Come on. We've got a message here from a gentle person named Aaron. A-A-Ron.
You guys, that voice really got me. My God. Hey, Big Three. My name is Aaron, and I'm calling just with gratitude for the work you've done, the work the writers have done on This Is Us. I am a Latino man who was adopted into a white family, and I never, growing up, it was not the easiest thing to be brown and in a very white neighborhood with a white family.
And I never saw TV shows, movies, stories about being a person of color growing up in a white family. Oh, my God, Sterling, your plot line. Every week I felt like my life was just being projected on the TV. I also suffer from crippling anxiety, crippling panic attacks. I'm a workaholic. So every week, Sterling, your plot line would have me.
just in, I'm crying right now, it would have me in pieces. I felt so seen. I could relate so deeply. So I just wanted to thank you so much. I'm also a recovering alcoholic, so Justin's plot line was just a
It's just the honesty in the writing and the portrayal of what it's like being an alcoholic, going through recovery. Yeah, I don't know. This entire show helped me so much. I felt so seen. My life felt so reflected on the screen. So I just wanted to thank you all so much for your work. I'm sure you're getting millions of these types of calls, which is amazing because that show has touched so many people. I'm just now grateful that I can
know that maybe the three of you get to hear my thanks and hear my gratitude.
Oh, yeah, hope you all have a beautiful day side note Mandy my god move over Meryl Streep girl you are I'm getting all flustered now Chris. I love you so much. You're hilarious. Just call you back here Now we're gonna use mint mobiles unlimited minutes, let's do it and talk to Aaron come on let's talk to him Hello
Erin, you are speaking with Chris Sullivan.
Mandy Moore. This is A.A. Ron. Oh, no, no. I'm Sterling. I'm Sterling. You're A.A. Ron. What's up, dude? Doing good. This is fantastic. How y'all doing? We're doing very well. Thank you for your lovely voicemail. We just heard your incredible message. Thank you for taking the time to leave it for us. Yeah. We're so touched. Emotional and rambly by the end. No, not at all. Bro, everything that you said hit straight to the heart.
Thank you for your kindness and sort of insightfulness in terms of how the show impacted you. It's something that never gets old for us. Like truly knowing that people have been touched and moved, feel seen and sort of just like...
Makes you want to be a better person like thank you for letting us know that that it it touched you. Yeah, that's it Yeah, man, it may yeah, just leaving that voicemail being able to give my gratitude to y'all for what this show and your performances gave me was Just was enough Let's go
Like you said, I've never felt more seen than I have while watching This Is Us. It mirrored my life in so many ways. It was just unbelievable. Wow. Can I ask, how did you actually find the show? Yeah. My friend Sam, shout out to my friend Sam, reached out because the two of us actually were big fans of the show Smallville. So we knew Justin from Smallville.
Smallville and he's like hey man, there's a new show about adoption and it features Justin you know the green arrow I'm like, all right. I think I've heard about it first kind of emotional like let's see Let's take a dive in and like I mentioned in my voicemail I am a Latino man who was born in Colombia and then adopted into a white family here in the States Yeah living in a very white neighborhood. I my whole life. I've suffered from
crippling anxiety, crippling panic attacks. I'm an alcoholic. I'm now currently in five years of sobriety. Congratulations, man. Thank you. You're welcome.
And I met my biological mother as an adult. And so within a couple of episodes of watching this, I was just like, okay. You're like, is someone spying on my life? So many moments where it just was like the show perfectly encapsulated exact moments from my life. It was, I just was.
hook, line, and sinker. And yeah, I've been a fan of the show since day one. Did the show help you, like enable you to have certain conversations, like things that you saw depicted on screen or what, you know, Randall was going through or what Kevin was going through? Did it help you
have conversations with family or friends or just to be able to say like, this is so wild. This feels like my life and being able to direct people to what was happening on the show. Yeah, I think it definitely gave me more. I mean, I've, I think since kind of, you know, going through recovery, I've become much more of an open person. When you go to AA meetings and you hear people share and you share, it just helps you become more open human being. And I'm also, I'm a musician myself.
And so I have written a song about meeting my biological mom. And it was one of those I wrote for me. We put it out. I put it out there, released it. But then we never, like I play with a band, we never played it live. And then this show, just seeing, feeling so seen, the adoption story, especially, especially the transracial component of the adoption story, made me like, okay, like, I kind of want to
if they can share this and I can feel seen, I want to pay that forward. So I started playing that song more and more at shows. And then same, I've had people come up to me being like, I've never heard songs about being a transracial adoptee. Like this, I had one person come up to me and say like, hearing this song made me like, I'm going to start the look for my family. And so like,
The show gave me the courage to do that, which has just been fantastic. I can also help in some way, help people feel more connected to their story. You said the song is out right now. What's the name of the song? Yeah, it's called Up, Up and Away. And what's the name of your band? We're called Lindstrom and The Limit. Okay.
I wrote it up up in a ways that you know back to the Smallville thing It's actually goes the only thing I'd seen really I connected to when it comes to adoption in television Was Smallville because if you look at the core of it Superman's and sure sure American immigrant story It's someone who comes from far away doesn't know where he comes from and then becomes this strong hero Because of the family that raised him. Yeah, I
So I could really, that's why I loved that show. And then This Is Us came and hit a little closer to home. Wow. I love that. Dude, this is, thank you for your message. Thank you for, and for playing it forward. Like, you know, so much of what our lives as artists is, is taking the pain, you know, taking the tough times and trying to take it
turn it into something beautiful so that there can be a shared experience. So much of it means if somebody else can see what we've done, somebody can hear what you've done, they know they're not in it by themselves. So thank you for being a consumer and for being a creator as well. Thank you so much. The
The elegance y'all told the story of being a transracial adoptee was just so spot-on perfect. I just, it, especially, I know y'all are still in season one, but later on, like, when Randall goes to the support group for adoptees, that whole scene just floored me. Especially, like, growing up, I'm dark brown skin. I'm clearly Latino, but...
i grew up in a white neighborhood i don't really speak spanish that well and so when i'm when i go to colombia i get you know everyone's like oh he's the he's the gringo he doesn't really know spanish he has that sense of oh i guess i don't quite belong here but then up here in the states just being in the states and being brown you get told quite frequently you don't belong here as well yeah and so just that like juxtaposition of where do i fit in
was represented so well in the show. And every time something would happen, it just was, yeah, it just made me feel seen in a really beautiful way. But I'll tell you where you fit in. You fit in right here with this group. Yeah.
Yeah. You fit in with us. We love you and we appreciate your vulnerability and sharing. You're a beautiful man, A.A. Ron. I can't see you, but I'm hugging you, you know, through the phone right now. You and all your beautiful brownness. So thank you, bruh, for sharing with us. We appreciate you. Yeah, thank you for your candor and your vulnerability and...
Thanks for following along with us and congrats on, you know, all the exciting stuff you have happening in your life and with your music and art. It's amazing. Oh, man. Thank you so much. Thank you for all of your – I mean, the storytelling is beautiful and all of your portrayals of the characters. Like, come on. Like I said in my voicemail, Mandy, good lord. Like, you're amazing.
your acting is just like unbelievable. You don't even think of like, it's just fantastic. Chris Sullivan, your, your suaveness. Yes. My man, it's the line. Uh, what it's, uh, if my boo comes with baggage, I'm paying the handling fee. Oh, yes, dude. That is just like, come on.
Completely improvised. That's a line you've used in person. Thanks so much. God bless you, brother. Thank you very much. Thanks for chatting with us today, Aaron. This made my day. Thank you all so much for everything you do. Wish you all the best, bro. Peace, man. Bye. Bye. You guys. What a guy. I'm telling you.
These things, this emotional support hotline, are they supporting us emotionally? I know. Are we supporting them? Or maybe that's just it. Maybe the circle. It's cyclical. Is just like that. You know what I'm saying? You feed them, they feed you. Yes, I agree. We'll catch you guys next time. Thank you very much. Bye-bye. That Was Us is filmed at The Crow and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions and Sarah Wareheim. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith.