The Night We Lost Jack Pearson | "Super Bowl Sunday" (S2E14) with special guest Dan Fogelman
01:34:33 Share

On today's episode of That Was Us, we will be discussing Season 2, Episode 14, Super Bowl Sunday. On the 20th anniversary of Jack's death, Randall hosts a Super Bowl party. Kevin, Kate, and Rebecca share their memories of this day and how they've been coping since.

- Hello friends. - What's going on? How's everybody doing today? - Well, how are you? - I'm doing- - We have a special guest. - We have a special guest, everybody. You guys know Mandy, Chris, myself, Sterling, but do you know the man who created the show? Mr. Dan Flewitt, everyone. - Everybody stop. - He's back. - I can't believe you guys have a live audience now. This is amazing.

- We've grown up so much since you were last on. - So full disclosure, we were gonna try to do this episode a few times before. We thought about doing it with just ourselves. And then we said, man, we had to hold onto this secret for such a long time and tease it out. Do you know how Jack passed away? Yes, we know how Jack passed away. People had all these sorts of theories about it. It didn't feel right.

to not do it without the man who built up to this moment. So Fogelman, thanks for joining us once again. We appreciate having you here. You okay? You look good. - Thanks. - He's got his Paradise hat on. - I just realized. I'm coming from work, so I didn't even know. - Cross promotion. It's all Paradise hats. Can we get Paradise hats? - I can get you a Paradise hat. - Great. - Yeah. No worries. No worries. So we're talking about "214." It's the fire. We talked a little bit about it with John and Glenn, who also directed the episode. But talk to us in terms of like,

- You're known now at this point in time of sort of like building suspense, the turns, the twist, et cetera, and sort of keeping people on the edge of their seat. What was it like holding onto the secret? Like this is one of the first red scripts that we had in terms of like- - Yeah, I was just about to say that. - People not like copying or whatnot. Like all of what went into keeping the secret as long as it is.

as you did. Yeah, I mean, it was a lot. It was a lot on our writers, I think, and the people that were constantly in charge of distributing scripts. We were so anxious back then. In retrospect, it was probably a little silly. Like, I don't know what we were worried was going to happen that...

one of the few people who had access to it was gonna put it on the internet. Like I wasn't even, I guess that's what we were worried about. I'm less worried about it now because it's like everything's out there all the time. And so I don't really, I just remember boards were constantly going down. Our writer's assistants were constantly taking pictures of things. We started realizing that,

every time we left our office, we were leaving the cards out everywhere that said what happened in the show. And there were tour groups coming through and that started freaking everybody out. Yes, Isaac and Elizabeth told us that. They're bringing tours through the writer's room. And they're like peeking the windows, like encouraging people to go like peer in the writer's room. Were they peering or were they bringing them inside? I don't think people were coming inside. I don't think they could go inside the office. But you know, those places are like

the temperature control in those places is terrible in those offices. So we're always having the windows open or closed depending on how hot or freezing it was. Because it was from 1892. Yeah. And so we were sitting and taking such great care to protect the secrets and then realized like there were tour groups just driving by with the windows open that could look right in the window and see everything. You have to be like a hawk in order to read everything. It was more, we just really built it out. We knew from the very beginning in those first couple of weeks that it was going to be a house fire. Yeah.

That he wasn't going to die in the house fire, that he was going to die from the after effects of it, that those after effects were going to have been caused by going back in for the family dog. Sure. So we knew all that. And then it was just really a matter of like parsing it out and making sure everything we told up until that point had been delivered at the right time and the right way. And just, it's kind of easy when you know the end. Like it's not as hard as it seems. Getting to the end, logistically speaking, was house fire...

When it came up in the room, it was like, too easy. Like, we need to push this back one more step. You know what I mean? Like, man dies in house fire. No, no, no, that can't be it. Like, how do you push it down the road that... Yeah, I mean, the ironic part was... Delicately. The ironic part was, I think, when I came into the writer's room, I believe...

I had a couple of scripts. We definitely had the pilot done. And I might have written the second script already. I can't remember. And I kind of, whenever I'm starting a writer's room, I send out a document to the writers that says...

Here's what the show is. Here's what I don't know yet. Here's kind of my plan. And I'm pretty sure House Fire was just ingrained from the beginning. Yeah, okay. And all the detail of it, the going back in for the dog and the after effects of it. But I think just it was a decision I made early in that early document that just held. I think I thought for a show that was going to be about a family –

that this hinge point being the burning down of their house would be like an interesting way to do it. Sure. I don't think it was something we backed into. I think we had that and then we backed into the steps of how to get there. The ironic part was that when we made the show, it never occurred to me how big a deal the mystery of Jack's death was going to be. Right. I thought it was going to be a small component. Right. And when I'd wrote it out, I'd be like, oh, we'll eventually get to the part where you reveal how it happened and that there was a fire. Yeah.

It wasn't until the first episode started screening and people were like, where's the dad? And the second episode, what happened to the dad? And it took on a life of its own. It was always part of the fabric, but I didn't realize what a big deal it was going to become. And in some ways, I think that became our superpower early on, which was we had this propulsive mystery underneath what was otherwise a very intimate, small family drama. We had this big question and mystery that I actually hadn't planned on being asked.

that crazy. - Well, you said this the other day, Mandy, like you were like, once you got to 214, you were like, kind of thank God, now we can focus on just the lives of the people, right? - Yeah, there was like relief. Like we were just holding onto this secret. And I think as an actor too, like getting through 214 and 215, like the aftermath of like the funeral and everything, it was like,

And now this woman can just like put the pieces of her life back together and start putting one foot in front of the other and moving on. There was like so much anxiety of like, how do we do this? How do we do this? Well, like,

there's so much anticipation i felt like there were so many eyeballs on like how is this gonna go yeah that like once that was out of the picture it was until they until they sow the seed for the next mystery yeah right yeah but it was scary at that time because it had taken on a life of its own mila had become this character that people were just like obsessed with like america tv dad jack his name is jack sorry and uh if you yeah i don't know if you remember yeah yeah sorry and uh

So it becomes such a big part of our conversation that it was like, it was exciting to discard it and be able to like focus on what comes next. But it was also really, really scary. Was it the most nerve? You, you, Dan gets nervous. Like, like just as part of his nature, like he loves going on X.

looking at seeing like what people are saying like in real time or what have you like it's freaked out was this the most nerve wracking for you no no not at all it was nerve wracking on a global global sense of like oh shit we don't have that

thing to do anymore. Yeah. That magic trick to play where it's like, okay, in this episode, we're going to introduce the redheaded girl. And now we know we're getting closer to the death. And Chrissy can't talk cryptically to Sully, Kate can't talk cryptically to Toby anymore about what happened to her father without saying it. So we lost that magic trick on episode 14. Gotcha. And, um, I think a lot of shows might've tried to pull it out longer. Yeah. And I was, I was of the mind of like, this is where it should happen. Okay. Um,

Yeah, there was a moment they even wanted to change –

our scheduling in the second season of the show. If you guys remember that, when they wanted to put us, change our night. Change our time slot. And I threw a conniption. But the main way we won was by me saying like, no, I have a very specific plan of like, when we're going to do Jack's death, it has to be on the Super Bowl. This would ruin the plan creatively. And I was able to like win the day on keeping us on Tuesday nights because of that argument. When did you know that this was going to be the show that this episode was going to

precede the Super Bowl? I started asking for it right away. Oh, wow. When we were like, I don't remember, I mean, I knew going into season two we would. I love this.

But I just started asking for it right away. Because you knew the Super Bowl was going to be on NBC that year. I knew the Super Bowl was going to be on NBC. I knew we were laying in that the family was a family of football fans. We had established the terrible towel and the pilot and all of that. And it was just, you know, it was network TV. And there was a lot. I just wanted that slot for something big and particularly for that episode. And you got it. Before we delve a little bit further into this episode, this is an interesting thing because up to this point,

Name them off. There's Grandfather, there's Galavant, there's The Neighbors. What else did you have on the air that had run at least one season? Not much. I mean, I had done two shows that I loved and had been rewarded or not rewarded in various ways, but I had done only two shows that had made two seasons. One was like a sitcom called The Neighbors and one was this musical called Galavant. They both did two seasons. I just named them. And then got cancer. I just said that. I'm sick of it.

- But I certainly hadn't, I certainly hadn't never had, I mean, I'd done big films before, but I had never done a TV show that had like jumped into the zeitgeist. I had never had that before. - Did it feel, and did it feel good from jump? Like when did it feel like, okay, they're listening to me in a way that maybe they hadn't listened to me before? - It was the whole time really. I mean, it was-

John and Glenn kind of said as much too. Yeah. We knew the pilot was special. We thought we had something. And then it was just, you know, every indicator before we even aired was just, this thing was just like, kind of like under, I'm not a very spiritual guy. I'm certainly not a very religious guy, but it was like, it was almost like this thing existed and was just kind of waiting for us to all come along and do it. Because the stars aligned over and over and over again in so many ways on it that it was pretty nuts. But yeah, I,

It was right away. I mean, it was right away. The Super Bowl episode that we're talking about was definitely probably the pinnacle of that experience. I mean, when we all went to the Super Bowl that year in real time and you guys did, was Fallon after the Super Bowl. We did Fallon afterwards, yeah. And I remember being on the plane. I just remember being out to dinner and I remember...

when one of you guys maybe milo had come to dinner with me and my brother-in-law who had brought out with me okay and it was like pandemonium it was pandemonium like remember biden was there he was nice president at the time it was crazy and then we went and hustled over and you guys did the tonight show and it was like the super bowl

I brought my brother-in-law who was very excited. He was a New England Patriots fan. And he's like kind of like just a great guy from Rhode Island, from Boston. And he like left the...

I think the green room of Fallon, 'cause he just almost couldn't take it. It was like getting too overwhelmed. Like the size of the whole thing was so big that he's like, I think I'm gonna call it. Like it just felt nuts. It all felt nuts. And then I remember flying home on the plane and getting internet service and the studio network were all calling that gazillions of people had tuned into the Super Bowl. It was just, that was like, that was kind of for me, like the height of like the pandemonium right around that period.

Did you approach this episode differently knowing that there were going to be more eyeballs on it? And perhaps eyeballs that like they weren't like, I know the show was successful, but like, you know, you get new people tuning in that maybe have no idea who the Pearsons are. So like, does that make you sort of think differently about how to approach this? Maybe a little. I mean, I remember trying to, in the most gentle way possible, kind of...

give a little exposition to situations at the beginning of the first scenes for each of the characters. Yeah. Just so that people, if they didn't know, like who's this guy? Sure. If they were coming in, the opening is like this action movie for eight minutes. So it kind of draws you in. Yeah. You don't know the situation. Yeah. So that was intentional. And then I think, yeah, we knew we were saving the big twist at the end with like future Tess and future Randall. We wanted that to be something we had. I always wanted to like bring back that pilot song at the end of the episode.

Like, is that this... That's this episode, right? The Labi Siffre. The... Watch me. It was a cover of it. I think, yes. Yes. And like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one. Yeah. I wanted to give everyone like a moment to eat in the pilot, like all the actors. Like, I remember that was a big focus for me. Like being like, huh, I want everybody to have...

-a moment. - Yeah. At least every couple to have a moment. -Like, you know what I mean? - Yeah. Like, it was like-- And so I remember that being something that was really on my mind. I was like, "Oh, people might be checking it out for the first time." I want everybody's dynamic to be great and clear and to kind of get a moment of, like, the seven of you guys. The editing and the structure of the show is such a-- it's such a big part of the show, right? It's part of the musicality of the show. It's part of the reveal. It's part of the excitement. It's part of the mystery, all these things. And that, as I said,

I know that you have a big editorial team, but we have spoken in here quite a bit about the musical magic of your... Yeah, your fingerprints on every episode. Dan Folkman's editing on this show. And like you're talking about in this specific episode, how you started, the delicate nature with which you introduce characters so that people who are watching the Super Bowl can also watch the show. How did you learn how to do that?

How did you how did you develop that ability? I made a lot of stuff early in my career like those are the early shows I made I got that opportunity to be in the edit bay and kind of learned how it worked a little It was a play I feel overwhelmed directing because I don't always have the lingo and I don't know camera lenses And I don't know I still get confused about a long lens. You know what I mean? And I never felt intimidated in edit bay somehow and

because I just was like putting a puzzle together. It's something I really, I think I like. Yeah, so you've been involved in the editing of your projects from the beginning. From the beginning. Not my films, although I've directed now two films, but earlier in my career, I got to make a bunch of TV shows that didn't really cut through, but I was making 22 episodes and you just start learning. And a lot of people, when they get their one chance to make a TV show, don't have that experience, you know, so then they aren't ready for it maybe when it comes. So it took,

I started making stuff when I was 25, 26. Even the animated films, I was heavily involved in sitting with the directors and the edit bays. And so I think you start learning. Sure. And it really isn't... Editorial requires kind of like knowing what you like and what you don't, pacing. Yeah. If you have editors you trust, which I do, you don't need to know the lingo.

Right. Or be able to, that's always the thing that holds me back is not having a formal film or television education, but it never held me back there. Like I was just watching the opening of this episode that we're talking about. And I was like watching the scene where Milo and Mandy are in the hospital room after the fire. Yeah. I can't remember what happens in every episode, but I can remember every edit almost. Oh, wow.

It's a weird thing. And I don't watch the show often. Decisions and choices that were made. Decisions. And I was like going, oh, what's there? I was watching something and something bumped me. And I go, oh, I know what it is. It was the littlest thing, but they're sitting in the hospital and it's the last time they'll ever talk. And it was such an important scene. Yeah.

And I remember like Mandy compliments Milo like three times in it, how superhuman he is. And there's a rhythm where she's like, where you go, you're the best. And he says, I try. And the scripted line response was, no, you don't. Like meaning try, no, you don't even try. And that's what makes you. But it was like the third time you had complimented him in the scene. And I remember-

thinking it's getting too much. It's getting like, we're saying out loud that Jack's a superhero like four times in a four minute span, right before he's going to die. And so I just left it at, I try and just took a look from you where you shook your head with a cute smile. And it was like, it's like 80 billion of those little decisions of what makes a TV show. But I noticed it when I was rewatching going, something's a little odd about that rhythm. I'm like, oh, I'm missing a scripted line that I'm still somehow like vestigially remembering. Yeah.

Yeah. But so it's like, but then you make 20 of those decisions. You go, when is it too much? Like Sterling's very light in this episode. And like, when does it get too silly? You know what I mean? Like, when do you want to like, it's, and that's what editorial is for me. Yeah. You also have such a love for music. Yeah.

and your fingerprints are all over the music of this show. The editing feels musical. Like the rhythms, the harmonies. I mean, it feels, it's in everything. Yeah. Well, we have great editors who now know what I like, and we're simpatico in terms of like that rhythm and,

And it's all of it. It's the show feels that way because Yasu shot it that way. John and Glenn directed it that way. The performances feel like that. The dialogue feels rhythmic. It's not just me. It's like a lot of people like making the same thing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. All right. So we open. Everybody's asleep. My man opens the door and the fire is a roar. Now let's also say, because we've been away for a minute, but there's been a wonderful setup in terms of

The week before, two weeks before the beeping of the fire alarm and like the battery has not been replaced. And then Milo cleaning up after what was they're trying to have the Super Bowl party, but everybody wound up bailing on him. And as he's cleaning up, the last thing we see is the pressure cooker sort of shorting and begins to sort of. That's when that song was playing. Yeah. Yeah.

- That song. - Excellent montage. - We talked about it in that episode. What is the, there's a house. - Build a home, to build a home. - To build a home, yeah. - By the orchestra, Manchester. - No, the cinematic orchestra. - The cinematic orchestra. - Which that song is on an album that's all instrumental music. - And that's the only vocal track. - With vocal. - That was Vera, our writer.

At the very beginning of the show, I said, have you heard this song? And as soon as I heard it, I go, that's going to be what's playing as the house burns down. And then after I fell in love with it and after I edited it, someone said, you know, they use that very famously in Grey's Anatomy. I was like, shit, I'm too attached. We're just going with it. Did they? Bear listens to it every night in a sleepy time playlist. He has to hear it. Has to hear it.

So. We see that it shorts out. He turns it off, but it's like, the light still stays on. The non-descript. It begins to flame at the end of the episode. So now the audience knows they're slightly ahead of the Pearsons at this point. Pearsons are asleep at the top of the episode. My man opens the door and it's full on. And he goes right into, I got to get everybody to blank out of here, right? His kids are in two separate rooms. He goes and gets Randall first.

brings him back to the bedroom, goes to get Kate. By the time he tries to get out to get Kate, it's like blazing. And I was just watching this. He takes the mattress, he pulls off the sheets and everything. This is so Jack. Has the thing and he like blocks the fire with the mattress.

And shout out to Hannah because Hannah was like, "I'm about to die." The panic in her voice and her performance was like, "Oh no, this is real." I was freaked out. And just being the man that he is, Shields, you can see makeup had his hands slightly charred as he's going through and he makes it through.

Then he starts lowering everybody out the window, et cetera. This is a moment for us that we're gonna talk about because as the sole African-American representative amongst this group, this is an important thing. We're lowering everybody out.

Like we're safe, guys. We made it. Then we hear, now, Kate was like, oh my God, what's the dog's name? Louie. Louie! She starts, Louie! And he's like, and he's like, oh. Now guys, I mean, I'm gonna be real with y'all and I need to know. You got two kids in the house, you know, your son is gone and whatnot. Yeah. You going back for the dog?

I wouldn't go back for my son. Thank you for listening to us today. This has been Dan Fogelman. I don't know. It depends. It depends on the situation. It depends on the situation. Manny, are you going back for the dog? I mean, my gut says yes. My gut says yes. Your gut says yes. Yeah. Yeah.

In all honesty, I probably would just because I don't, the 60 years I'd have remaining living with my wife when I let that dog burn would just not be worth it. Sterling? No. No, no, no. Sterling's not the one. Listen, guys, and I don't, I want to tell this to our listeners. I don't think that makes me bad.

I'll get another dog. Now, and I don't want that to sound- Yeah. Or not, or not. You don't want another dog. I don't, for real. Honestly, like to risk- Yeah. Look, not only- I know, I know. And to Jack's credit,

Slash not crazy. He didn't just get the dog. My man gets albums. He gets all this stuff. And I'm like, Jack, bro, I love you. You my dad on TV. But like, I need you to live. Like there's other choices that could have been made for other people. Yeah.

In my mind's eye, I also always justified it. It's never said in the show. Yeah. It was like, if you were inside Jack's brain that night, it was the dog's barking. I'm looking at my little girl. She's begging me basically silently to get the dog. I can't let her down. But then as his brain starts thinking, can I make it downstairs? He goes, if I get down there, I can get the tapes. And like, I...

In my mind's eye, it was like that. It got him thinking I could get down there and get the stuff. Like he's a vet. He's seen some shit as we'll learn. And he's like, I can get down there and get the tapes out of the house. And that was like, that was how I always justified it in my mind. The shot of, so the family's down there. Screaming. Mandy Moore tried to run into the house.

But then Randall's like, "Come on, mama, just stay right here." And it's a nice little beat of just watching the house burn. And for a moment we're like, this is how he goes. - Also, I should say that lest anybody give us too much credit for having every single detail of the show mapped out, we did hit a point where we got up to the fire and one of my writers came to me and was like, "Dan, how did the whole family have childhood pictures all over the place?"

Like, and we had a lot. And I was like, we've been set dressing. I was like, and then we kind of started justifying the cabin. And then we were like, but there's pictures that predate our timeline when they bought the cabin. And I was like, well,

Well, Jack got it all out during the fire. When he got the dog, he got the pictures out. It was actually somebody on one of the Paramount tours that noticed that. They looked at the cards. I hear missing something on the timeline there. Okay. So my man, he finally comes out. The hero shot. The hero shot. Out of the smoke. Slow motion. Slow motion. It's a beautiful moment. He's got the dog under one arm. He's got the bag under the other. Everybody hugs it out.

All right. That's commercial break. Yeah. First commercial break. More. That was us after the short break. Listen, we're all parents here. As we know, bath time can be either a dream or a

a quote-unquote total disaster. But with dabble and dollop, it's always something kids actually look forward to. That's because it was created by a fellow parent, a mom of three, who also happens to be a natural ingredient expert. So you know it's made with families in mind. It's clean, vegan, tear-free, and

perfect for sensitive skin. Kids get to mix and match their own scents. Little strawberry, little coconut, boom, strawberry colada bath. It turns bath time into play time, and trust me, that's a win for everyone. The whole set comes with like seven or eight different flavors, and this little cup and this little spoon for being a little bit of a mad scientist, mixing all your flavors together. And you mentioned strawberry colada. That's not just for kids, Sterling. I'm here to tell you. Okay. It works for you too? That soap works on adults too. I heard that, bro.

Plus, it's not just us loving it. Dabble and Dollop has won the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, Parents Magazine's Best Of, and Baby List's Top Picks. As soon as I got my case, I immediately sent two cases out to two other families. I love that. That I knew would love it. Yes. And now, listen guys, it's even easier to grab because Dabble and Dollop is available at Target. Woo!

You can find their bath bomb variety packs and six of their bubble baths in-store and online at Target.com. So, if you love a good deal, head to dabbleanddollop.com and use code THATWASUS15 for 15% off your first purchase. Treat your family because they deserve it. Try Dabble and Dollop and see just how much better bath time can be.

Alright, we've all been there, gang. Standing in the pet food aisle, staring at a wall of bags, wondering what's actually in all that kibble. Spoiler alert. It's usually a bunch of processed stuff and fillers. That's why we've got to talk about Spot and Tango. And more specifically, their game-changing un-kibble.

Unkibble is not your average dog food. It is made with human-grade ingredients. We're talking real USDA meat, fruits, veggies, no artificial junk, no preservatives, just actual food for dogs. It's gently cooked and freeze-dried using their fresh-dry process so all the nutrients get locked in. And the best part?

It's shelf-stable, so you don't need to clear out your fridge. That is a very interesting point that you make, Mandy, because the shelf-stable nature of this Unkibble has been kind of a game-changer in our household. Over the pandemic, we switched to all different kinds of food, and we even had to buy a special freezer in our garage to house food.

the large amounts of food that I was constantly defrosting and moving from the freezer in the garage up to the kitchen. Now, I've got a couple of sweet bags of Unkibble just sitting there in a drawer waiting to be freshly scooped right into their bowls. And I'll tell you what, my dogs, Harry and Sally, that's right, you heard me right, they love it.

I love that. And you know, it's not just about what's in the food. It's about how personalized the whole process is. So when you sign up, Spot and Tango creates a custom meal plan based on your dog's age and breed and weight and activity level. So your pup gets precisely what they need. Nothing more, nothing less. And the easy scoop they include makes portioning really,

Super simple. Honestly, the Unkibble difference, it happened almost immediately. Switching dog foods, for those of you who don't know, is very difficult, but not with Unkibble. The dogs were already on it after like a few days and their digestion is better. Their energy is better. There's less itching going on with, I'm looking at you, Sally. Yeah.

everything has just kind of like instantly turned around it's really great spot and tango is offering an exclusive deal for our listeners for a limited time go to spot and tango dot com slash twu and use code twu to get 50 off your first order that's spot and tango dot com slash twu code twu to get 50 off your first order spot and tango dot com slash twu code twu

So there we go. We're sitting in the ambulance. The EMT's telling me, you know, you took in too much smoke. I'm amazed to see that you're doing as well as you are. Go ahead. Can we give some BTS here? So remember how we were trying to hold on to so many secrets and occasionally because we shot practically like around Los Angeles, there might be some like weird photographer, paparazzi or whatever that would like, and most of the time it's not a big deal because you're like,

we're shooting in the location, like, you know, or we're outside, like, with the kids, like... Yeah. Not exposing any big pot points. Correct. There's nothing that, like, they would get a picture of that would reveal anything. But on this particular moment, because there was so much sensitivity around protecting the secret of Jack's passing, they had a stunt actor...

Do you remember this? Faintly. Yes. What? There was like. For Milo. Yes. There was like a photo double, but not a real photo double, but someone dressed up to sort of throw off in case there was anybody around. Oh, yes. Absolutely. Now I hear it. Yes. In the ambulance. So when I was doing that scene in the ambulance, if anybody got any footage, we shot with Milo, obviously, but then I'm trying to remember the logistics. We need to figure out who this person was and we need them on the podcast. Yes.

This is our next guest. You're absolutely right. Because that was what I was most freaked out about was seeing the parts that would say he survives the fire. Yes. So there was somebody there for certain shots. I don't remember what the logistics were exactly, but I do remember sitting with this man in the ambulance, like doing a scene with him that wasn't Milo. Yeah.

in case somebody, when they move the camera or something, in case somebody was able to get a shot of that. Because we couldn't completely lock down. Right, I think we shot it. Did we shoot that ambulance inside the ambulance in two different locations now? Like maybe it was something like the stuff we could shoot from the inside. I feel like you're right. Yes, yes, yes. I think you're right. So anything that like...

someone could potentially peer in and see Milo sitting there, was this other stranger sitting with me. This is one of the things we talk about, about our show being difficult for a lot of people, right? But...

Dan Fogelman and the writers will take care of an audience in a way that is incredibly respectful. - Yeah. - Right? Even the foresight, the amount of planning. We know the story, we know where it's going, we're not stumbling around in the dark. We have all these steps, we have all these steps, we have all these steps. To the point even of like, okay, yeah, at the end of the last episode, we see the fire start. We're not gonna wait.

until halfway through to get back to it. First thing, smoke, fire. Like, here's your answer. This is gonna be hard, but we're gonna take care of you and we'll walk you through it. Then there is a bit of a head fake that must have had, I remember Rachel even being like, she was starting to let go. She was starting to release, like, he dies in the fire. And then he doesn't die in the fire. And she's like. I like the band.

And then you've got like 10 minutes of everybody in the other future storyline saying my father died on Super Bowl Sunday 20 years ago. So you know you're so close. You're like, what happened? I just, I remembered that little detail and I was like, gosh, that was so strange because it wasn't often that we had to employ those kind of tactics.

I have a memory. I have one picture of it somewhere, but I have a memory of that. We shot out at this ranch and they literally, it was, our show was not like a high budget in terms of production value show. On occasion, we would do something big at the Hollywood Bowl or go to Vietnam. But for the most part, it was beautifully shot scenes inside rooms. But they built the structure of the house out on this ranch and out in- Like Link?

- Yeah, I forget the name of the ranch, but they built, basically built the house to burn it down. - This is also, you said, because there's a couple of different houses that the Pearsons went and we realized that you had to change structurally. - Yeah, one that didn't have a balcony. - It was a balcony. There was things and it was like, so they built it and then basically burned it fake. And then I just remember, I remember stepping through it with Milo

And then, oh, this is going to be awesome because the guys and Myla are taking it so seriously that it's going to be very real. I remember being really struck by Hannah, this little girl who we'd plucked out of nowhere with barely an audition process, who is now like an 18 year old who could emote like that. And I didn't know that she had that in her. And that made it so visceral and real. And then I just remember Mandy, it was freezing. I remember we had a little heated tent and Mandy was just sitting and reading a Joan Didion.

as her family home burned. She was just reading Joan Didion by herself. And I took a picture of it. I was like, Mandy is just like, she's alternately like screaming, weeping, her house is burning down. And then she's just reading Joan Didion off on the side in a heated tent. And I remember it was like four in the morning. Wait, can I tell you my favorite part of this whole episode? Because it had been so much pent up emotion, so much buildup. And I remember the scene of going to Miguel's house and telling him that Jack had died.

And the kid, you know, having to go and like tell the kids and stuff. And, you know, Dan, you would come occasionally. Obviously for this episode, I feel like you were around a lot because it was just so important. But I remember you coming up to me afterwards because you were like, we should do something for me. You were telling Jake, your assistant, like we should do something for Mandy. Like this has been a lot. Like this has been really trying. And his suggestion was to get me a clown. Yeah, we were, we were...

Jake was with me for all of this. I was so sad for so long. I came over to set. Maybe I just told the, I'd been watching Mandy like a week. Cry for two weeks. For two or three weeks because of just all the scenes. And I went to say goodbye. It was like two in the morning and she was sitting in a little guest room of the house waiting for her next scene. And she was still just like heaving from the sobs as they were moving the cameras. And I went, Mandy, I'll see you tomorrow. She's like, okay.

Thank you for everything. And I'm walking down the street and Jake's walking out. And I'm like, we got to send flowers or do something for Mandy. The poor girl has just been crying for three weeks. And we just walked in silence down this suburban street. And Jake goes, what if we sent her a clown? And I was like, what? And he goes, like a clown to her trailer. And I was like, Jake, I'll see you tomorrow. We're not sending Mandy Moore a clown. I really wish you had done that. I would have done that. Sully would have dressed up for you. You would have dressed me up.

I deliver some balloons. Pennywise comes to me. And we just, every day I'd be like, thanks for all your hard work. Every day I would look at the call sheet, like, what's today's shooting? And they're like, oh, Mandy eats the candy bar and sees Jack dead. I'm like, okay. And then I'd be like, what's the next day? She's like, she tells her children they've lost their father. I was like, what's the next day? Like, she tells Miguel that his best friend is dead. And it was like, every day was like this relentless siege of emotion on her. Oh, God. She tells Miguel to suck it up. Suck it up. That button, you suck it up. Okay. Well, let's stay with the five, like,

The day of the fire, because it is sort of like the crux of the episode. They decide that he needs to go to the hospital. They decide to drop the kids off at Miguel and they go there. And the doctor, played by Bill Irwin, who is, shout out to Bill Irwin, who's absolutely wonderful. He's a clown. Yeah. We could have said him. We could have said Bill Irwin. That would have been really appropriate, full circle. That would have been a very full circle moment.

He's sort of remarking at how, like, you know, you did take in a lot of smoke, but you seem to be doing fine, et cetera. Yeah, they're really going for his hand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Right, there's like third degree or whatever. You got to make sure that that's okay. Conversation between husband and wife and what Dan was saying earlier, like, you're kind of awesome. You come, you know, super and everything. He's like, ah, you know, I try, da-da-da-da-da.

And hungry, people are hungry. I'm gonna go to the vending machine. He's like, no chocolate and nothing great. Cool. And then he says, babe or Beck or what have you. And he goes, you stand in front of TV. And she's like, oh, ho, ho.

So she goes to the candy bar. You're on the phone with Miguel? - I'm on the phone with Miguel, and then I'm on the phone with like a hotel, I believe, like trying to remember. - Is that what's happening, setting up where you guys are gonna stay for the night? - Yeah. - And this is John and Glenn were talking about this shot. And I don't know if everybody clocks in. - I didn't know how they did this. - I didn't know how they did it either, but it was a blue screen behind her.

And so as she's on the phone in real time, in slow motion, everybody is running into Jack's room or running around trying to figure out what's going on. So it's just real. I don't know if I even paid attention to it the first time. But as I was watching, I was like, oh, that's, it causes this. It's dysregulating. Yeah. Yeah. She's in real time and everything else is going to slow down.

So then Bill Irwin comes out. I want to spend a good portion of time, because you try not to take your flowers, but you need to receive these flowers. You need to just take this shit. Okay. And don't, like, unfold your... Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Because if you don't, we will get a clown to bring you flowers to your house. Unfold your arms and receive this, because...

- I'm so uncomfortable. - So Bill's, Dr. Irwin, I don't know if the doc's name is like, listen, something happened. You know, he took in a lot of smoke and he's not gonna make it. Like he, what have you. - He didn't make it. - And she's like, what are you talking about? Like, I was just talking to him. Like you can see in her head. Like he just told me to move in front of the TV 'cause he was watching Subo because Elway finally got his thing. Like what? And she gives him a look. She takes a bite of this.

This candy bar. Yeah. And it's like in complete and total disbelief. And she gives him a look like, bro, you need to back up so I can go talk to my husband. Like, Jack, you're never going to believe what this guy is talking about. Well, yeah, I just remember thinking like,

This is so awful. Like you're talking to the wrong person. Like you don't remember who I am. We were just having a conversation like, this is so wrong that you're doing this. We were just here for a burn and you're giving the wrong person this news. And like, it just, I was, you know, I just remember cycling through like,

This is inappropriate. This is unprofessional. And just off, you know what I mean? There's just so much swirling around the...

coming down from the adrenaline of what we just lived through, like, that it felt so impossible that this man would be delivering this news to someone in that fashion so casually. I think that was Mandy's take, too. I think just all that was on the script was kind of like, he tells her this news and she kind of has a, like, what the fuck are you talking about reaction? And goes into the room to prove that that's not the case. And what Mandy added was her, was like the take, if I remember correctly, which is like,

there's something really wrong about this person. So it like getting this so wrong that they're telling the wrong person. And she kind of says at one point, I think like, can somebody tell this person to get away from me? And you call him this person? And it was like, and that was not, I don't think that was scripted. I think that was all Mandy just on the way to the door, filling that space of like, oh, that's her take on what this is. It's a doctor giving somebody the wrong information. It makes the switch so cool. So between, because you wrote it

And clearly you wrote it because you literally have her reference the moment before is like, "I was eating the candy." It is the acting highlight of "This Is Us." As far as I am concerned. We were in agreement. To be able to play those things simultaneously, right? And like the bite of the bar was just like, "I'm eating my candy bar, bro." Like, I don't know what you're talking about. To see you walk into the room,

And then we as an audience get a chance to see his reflection in that glass pane as you just sort of like...

it hits, you know what I'm saying? It's like an elephant sometimes when it turns, it's like he tried to tell you and then you have to see that shit. And you're like, it's like when I watch just real quick at the end of Captain Phillips, when Tom Hanks is having his thingamajigga, there's moments that you look at as an actor and you go like, oh, that's an interesting take. That's an, I would've done a different. Then you see certain takes and I was like, I don't know how he did that. - I don't, yeah, it's like a magic trick. - That's one of the moments. - It's like a magic trick. - Guys, you're too kind, too kind.

That's the last time we'll mention it. Thank you. That's the last time we're going to mention it. I've been sitting on it since this episode because I had to let people know. They think you just like a pop singer or something like that. They think you just do covers, umbrella. This boot's been put in work, Jack. I went there for the filming of that. And I mean, I completely agree. And I went there for the filming of it. I remember it was only they only did we only did two takes, I believe.

um of that big the big walk not the conversation with bill but the big walk-in and the reaction to milo i think it was two takes yeah and i was like oh that's that's the best thing in the show and that's going to be like an iconic moment of television like i was like that's really crazy and it's just all just it's a single shot on mandy i mean it's just like literally just a heart up against the door frame and i was like oh that's unbelievable i remember realizing in a real time and i remember i'd driven down to that hospital and i was like it was so intense and i saw like

the second take. I said, bye guys, I'm going back to the writer's room. Like, I was like, oh, I don't, there's nothing else to do here today. Like, yeah, it was nuts. I think it was this, this is the moment where I realized like, yeah, this is a family drama and there's these great romances in the show, but this was the moment where I was like, this is a show about this woman's life. Yeah. Yeah. Like,

and the things that she has been through to try and keep this family together. And it's just, everything became clear in that moment. - I agree. - I think also one of the like, the theoretical things about this being the Super Bowl and on the Super Bowl, and then I really wanted the Super Bowl was like,

in a family drama that doesn't have a lot of like it's not like a whodunit right yeah i was like the death of the patriarch in that moment for mandy that's our super bowl right it doesn't get any bigger than that right it's like um we kind of have a line in the new project we're doing but john riqua always says it was his like life at full volume was an expression he always used that i liked and i've used i've stolen from him i was like that's it that's one of the that's

this family for, you know, that's the moment that will forever be the most, the biggest moment in their life. - Well, yeah, it's like before and after. - Yeah. - Is that just like indelible moment, experience? - And she's there alone. She holds it alone. Like nobody else was there. Nobody else saw it happen. Nobody, you know what I mean? It's such a- - She didn't see it happen. - Right. - I mean, that's the whole crux. - Yeah, I mean, for me, I was like, so like, you know, you use your experience and I was, my mom passed away when I was,

like 30 and uh but she had a surgery that wasn't supposed to be life-threatening and it went backwards sideways and uh she she was in the ice i was it was in the icu for a couple days but never woke up from the surgery

And I kind of stayed vigil at the hospital for like three or four days, like playing martyr, refusing to leave, sleeping there, eating there. And it was a surgery I'd arranged. It was a whole horror show. But it was like two o'clock in the morning and I had the experience of like just being woken up by the doctor.

like shaking my shoulder as I slept on like a couch in the ICU telling me she was gone. And it was singularly lonely and bizarre. And it was, you know, in my life thus far, it's been my moment, you know, along with birth of kids and weddings and stuff. But it was like, I remember being struck by, that's where some of the stuff was born out of. Like I wasn't eating a chocolate bar, but I remember that day I had given myself a break and went down to a local bar

like sports bar, walked out of the hospital, went to a sports bar and had like a burger at a bar and watched the NCAA tournament was on TV. And I gave myself an hour because there was just nothing. And I just like, that haunted me for a great long time that I'd left that day, even though there was nothing doing, I wasn't saying, you know what I mean? And so it was born out of that, fun stuff.

- You know what, what if we- - Make a joke quick. - No, no, no. - I'm trying, I'm trying, Dan. - That's the rinse, but like we don't need the rinse right now because I mean, what we do, Dan, and what you do so beautifully is you try to take your pain

And you show that it is a shared experience. That this thing that happened to you in a very personal and specific way is not foreign to other people's very specific pain as well. And when they get a chance to see that other people have gone through it too, they feel less lonely. You know what I mean? I think so, but I'm not doing it with that intent. I mean, honestly and truly is like,

you just write, if you're willing to dig in and write your stuff, then you hope that other people, it's not like I'm gonna do this so that other people can relate to it. Sure. Of course everybody's had those moments in their lives, right? Yeah. So that's a byproduct of the show being done well by all the actors and all the other writers and whatnot is like hope everybody's writing about their human share, their own human experience. And hopefully a part of it connects with people. This show did. Yeah. That was like the real gift of this show. The reaction to the show will forever be different than any other show we,

ever do because everybody related to moments in their own lives and their family. Right, right, right. Go ahead. No, please. No, no. Listen, I talk too much on the show. You keep us on track because your mind can hold this information better than ours can. Yes. Sully and I are thinking about lunch. Yeah.

Chopped salad. With the avocado. Definitely with the avocado. After you leave the hospital, do you go to see the kids? To see Miguel and tell them, yes. And to tell them. And you tell Miguel first. Yes. Well, besides the clown story, now I can't. No, it was... It's just like this... There was so much pressure for this whole episode because it's like there's just so much to carry and so much to carry. And I wasn't a mom yet, so I didn't know what that meant, but I could imagine and...

telling his best friend and it's just all so unthinkable but she has to rise to the occasion in that moment and like try try to keep her wits about her and recognize that like

she has to be strong for them. And I love that she goes to tell Miguel and he starts to break down and she's like, no, no, no, no, no. You cannot do that. We both can't do that right now because I have to go and ruin my children's life right now and I don't need to be taking care of you on top of it. Such a...

such a tricky moment for John too. Yeah. Like people still haven't quite gotten to know who Miguel is but they know where this is going. Yeah. And so this moment where you're like, hey, no, no, no. Yeah. It's such a tricky moment emotionally for him. Yeah. And you. That's one of my other, that's one of my probably 10 favorite scenes in the series because that scene with Huertas and Mandy because it's

It's very clear if you step back from the series and watch it, that's the moment that Rebecca becomes like the lead of the family and the lead of the show. And that scene, up until now, she's been the dutiful, sometimes unhappy younger wife, a kind of unhappy-ish matriarch in older age of the family. He's kind of lonely and sad. And in the second marriage, it's quieter. But you haven't seen, this is the start of the chapter where she like,

she takes over a family without the kind of de facto guy who's always assumed the leadership position of the family and becomes the hero of the story. And it very clearly happens in that scene. Like, that's a different character from then on out. And there's something so comforting about the structure of this show too, 'cause you can show these moments, right? These shifts in the story when it becomes--

when it becomes Rebecca's story. And you're like, oh, this is about her life, the things that have happened literally before and after the passing of her husband. And there's something comforting in the structure of it too, even being a part of the performance of it, where...

in the storyline of Kate and Toby in this episode, it's a tape on a thing on a day for Toby. Because doesn't have a lot of context, still figuring out the story, but it also didn't happen to him. There's a little bit of a removal there. And it's just interesting for me watching it now to remember that even the biggest

things, the biggest tragedies, the biggest traumas, the biggest-- eventually just become part of my story. - Yeah. - Mm-hmm. - Right? - Yeah. And they don't mean the same thing to other people. And they don't have the same effect on other people, even if they've also experienced them. And it's just-- it's oddly comforting to be reminded of that. You know what I mean? To watch in one episode of television,

this insane tragedy, but to also watch people be okay in the future and to know that they're okay. And to know that they have children and families and whatever those things are. It's one of my favorite things about the structure of the way you put this show together. That's part of the time jump, right? You get to see the other side that you can't picture on the day. It's like after you experience great loss, you're hard pressed to even imagine you'll ever be

happy again let alone be able to talk about a person who's gone in a way without it making you burst into tears but but that is the human condition you will even if you can't see it and this show because you get able to jump right 20 years it gives you that the ability to make them work hand in hand it was like the great magic trick of the time jump yeah so cool i don't have to talk

Sterling. Sterling, we can't do the rest of this podcast like this. So this is the thing. This is just so you know what's going on here. People tell me I talk too much on this podcast. And they'd love to hear more things from Mandy and Chris because they have very insightful and wonderful things to say, especially on an episode. Who tells you that? We don't think this is multiple people. It's definitely Ryan. It's Ryan.

Why are you out there talking in front of the show? Listen, because we know she doesn't listen to this. I think... Okay.

I do want to say this. Okay, so I'll say this. And then, cause I'll cue you up. Cause you guys, Mandy, cause you ask Allison to leave, you go in and you tell the kids. And I think that shot montage wise, right? But the thing that's really powerful and sort of that I relate to in a really interesting way, and it wasn't on the day because this happened on the day, but it was the shot of you in the car in front of the house

just giving yourself permission to lose it by yourself. Yeah. Because you couldn't give yourself that permission in front of everybody else, right? Especially Miguel. When my mom was on the phone trying to call the paramedics for my dad when I was 10 years old, right? It was one of the first times that I had seen her cry.

Like my mom was not a big crier, you know what I'm saying? And getting him ready. And then, you know, he ultimately didn't come back into the house. But for me, like I, it was this, as a kid who was younger than the Pearsons, like at age 10, not 30, not 17, but 10, it was this surreal sort of thing of like, oh, mom's crying.

We can't have everybody crying in the house altogether. And I was always taught as a Christian, well, he's in a better place. So I'll just go ahead and skip the whole grieving part and just be like, well, he's in a better place, right? I even remember going to the funeral and one of the reasons why I want to be cremated, when people say he looks so good, I always say,

No, he's dead. He's not there. His nose has been plucked all the way out. I can see straight up his nose. His skin is not the color that it normally was. You ever touch the body, like at the funeral? It's ice cold.

And I was like, oh, he looks so good. No, he's gone. The shell is there. You know what I'm saying? But he's gone. So I'm relating to this moment because at age 15, 16, of him being gone and going from Kelby to Sterling was coincided of this moment of just bawling. And I was like, oh, he's not coming back six years later, bro.

Yeah. I get that. He's not coming back. And the thing that allowed Kim to stay present was being Sterling. Like, it was like, Kelby is gone. Or Kelby served me for 16 years. I need to hear this name one more time. And I was just by myself. And I was just like, ah.

But that's what it reminded me of because it's like, it takes a second, whether you're doing it for other people or not, but like just even for yourself, like grief is a necessary thing. Yeah. Right? If you push it off, eventually you're going to have to go through it. But like to what you're just saying, Chris, there's something on the other side of it.

And while it's hard to even fathom, there's something quite beautiful, maybe not as beautiful, maybe a different kind of beauty, but something beautiful on the other side of it if you give yourself permission to keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

- Thanks for sharing that. - No worries. It was more about setting you up for like crying in the car. - No, no, no. That was something that we shot, I think for the first episode, right? It was like 201. That was the last shot of that episode. I believe it was just the same shot. - I think it's just how do we get back to that? - Wait, you shot that during the pilot or during the first episode? - No, no, during 201. It was shown during 201.

Oh, that's right. You sort of saw the flash at the end. You're like, wait, what? But this is how did we get to that point? Exactly. Marrying that all together. Yeah. Yeah. I'm now having flashbacks of you on those two weeks, like walking around base camp. Just like a zombie. Looking like war torn. Oh, my favorite thing was we were shooting all night at the, God, just revealing all this like BTS stuff.

But I guess that's what people want to hear about, right? Come on. We were shooting all night, doing all the fire stuff. And so you'd get home at 5, 6 a.m. or whatever. We were living in a rental house at that point. And I came home and I took a shower. I was getting ready to go to bed. And there was a party still happening next door.

And I was so, I think just completely like, like just over, like over emotional about everything. Like I was such a raw little vulnerable exposed nerve that I woke my husband up and I was like, there's a party going on next door. I was like, Oh,

"Oh, no fucking way." And he's like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no." And like, when I get there, I get there. - Yeah, it's our favorite. - I'm in my glasses, my pajamas, and I go over and I like pound on the door and I'm just like vibrating with anger at this. It's like the sun hasn't come up, but it's about to come up. And I'm like, "What the fuck is somebody doing? Like still playing like crazy house music."

And this like scared, looks like young 20s guy like opens the door. And I was like, do you know what? Fucking.

fucking time it is like I just laid into this kid and he was like shaking look at me and I was like some people have to work some people are going to sleep like this is inappropriate like I'm calling the police next time my house just burned down totally my husband just died he had no idea I'd never met this person this wasn't my home I didn't know who he was but I just remember like walking back into the house and my husband looking at me like who what because he could hear me like who was that yeah

But that just spoke to, I feel like, what I was living in at that moment of filming this episode. I was just so overextended. So when I think back to making this episode of television, I think of all those little moments of just like... And that guy shut the door and turned to the part. He's like, guys, you're not going to believe who was just here. You are not going to believe what just happened. He had no idea who I was. Here's my BTS question, because I feel like...

There has to be a natural amount of intrigue because I feel a need to ask the question because I'm intrigued in terms of the strange sort of parallel of life imitating art that you've recently just gone through. Yeah. Rebecca has a line when she's sitting in the EMT whatnot talking to Jack and she says, guys, it's just a house. Yeah.

And Randall says, but it was a really good house. And knowing what we know in terms of you and Milo both. I know. My. Having just lost your homes or whatnot. Like.

What sort of reverberations do you have of after having gone through that in life and having done it on the show? Are the emotions similar, completely different? Like, I know it's night and day in terms of the actual experience, but I'm curious. It's strange. I mean, I think about Milo a lot and I just cannot believe...

just the parallel nature of this. It's without getting into a hole, rabbit hole. When this all went down, we had two neighbors call us and tell us that our house was gone.

our immediate next door neighbor and neighbors behind us, both of whom lost their houses. And so we had to digest that. And I remember looking at Taylor and echoing that same sentiment. I'm like, it's just a house. It's just stuff. It's okay. We're safe. Like our family's here. Our pets are here. Like we're okay. And I truly felt that way. And I still feel that way. Even though the structure of our house is intact,

everything inside of it is a total loss, which again, I feel that way. I'm like, okay, it is just stuff. And I feel selfish saying that because, because I,

it still exists in a weird way. And I have passed no judgment on people like that. Obviously, like I don't feel that same attachment to things that I know people do to their stuff. I'm like, we just moved in a year ago. Like it's just a couch. But I totally understand that everybody has different attachments to their own personal things. But it was strange like thinking back now that like that is totally how I felt in the moment. Like,

It is what it is. It's just stuff, but yeah, it's all very strange. I just had to ask. Yeah, yeah. Lord have mercy. It's crazy. I digress. We'll be right back with more That Was Us.

I'm about to go on a trip with the family gang. We're going down under. It's going to be the first time that we as a family- You talking about Australia? I'm talking about Australia. We as a family are going down under for the first time. I'm very, very excited about it. I'm already planning everything, trying to figure out what we're going to do, if we're going to go see some crocodiles and kangaroos and all that kind of stuff. And we're also trying to figure out where to stay.

Hey, I have an idea. What do you got? You should get an Airbnb. You think so? Hotels can be fine. Yeah. But nothing beats having a full place to yourself, especially when traveling with a family. I like that. Like yours or a group. Now there's no fighting over who gets the last hotel key card or squeezing into one room with all your bags everywhere. God, no.

And don't get me started on those tiny hotel mini fridges. Don't start. Not enough room. Don't start. I love knowing that I'm going to have a place that actually feels like home, especially if I need to pack specific things for my little ones. Not to get too heavy, but we were displaced from the fires and we relied on Airbnb. We moved from Airbnb to Airbnb all over this city of Los Angeles over the last couple of weeks. And I'm so grateful because you can get specific. You can get granular about exactly what you need.

I love that. Like with little ones, if they have a crib or a pack and play or toys. Yeah. Making sure there's not a staircase. I love Airbnb. It makes you feel like you're staying at home. Yes. You have the creature comforts at home that you just, you can't get when you're staying in a hotel. Also, just thank you Airbnb for taking care of my girl, Mandy Moore. Thank you Airbnb. And as wonderful as it is to feel at home in someone else's home.

Airbnb works both ways. If you've got a trip coming up, why not host your home on Airbnb while you're gone? It's a simple way to let someone else enjoy your space while you're off enjoying theirs. Plus, you get to earn some extra cash in the process. - So if you've got an upcoming trip or you just want to make the most of your space you're not using, consider hosting on Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host.

How do we finish in that, the day of the fire? What's the last thing? I know we wind up telling Kev, young Kev, does Kate wind up going to see him on that day? She knocks on the window of the car. She's like, I have to be the one to, he has to hear it from me. Yeah. Yeah.

And he goes through that, but like, what's the cap on the day? I think it's montage. But it was just, it was a montage checking in on everybody in present day being all right, basically. And as you're also like, it was just all to music and montage. So then we can address each individual thing. Toby and Kate...

Kate on the day of the Super Bowl, every time she takes out this tape that was recorded. God, the reverberations of things that you have throughout episodes is really quite lovely because there's sort of these tent poles. Like I remember, it's like I remember when Jack said, I'm gonna record this and this girl, you're gonna love it and everything like that. And then she got really mad and said, Dad, what are you doing? And then at the end of that episode, she's like, please don't stop seeing me the way that you see me. Right.

You know what I'm saying? I remember that as I'm watching her watch that. She's like, "This is what I do." And Toby's trying to be like, "Do you want to do anything fun, uplifting?" She's like, "No, just let me do my thing." And he's like, "Well, why is it... How come I never heard the song?" "Oh, it's because it's the day my dad died and it was pretty tough." She's like, "I'ma shut up. Leave it alone." That's how she spends the day. We see Rebecca and Kev at your house. And he's talking about you asking what he normally does.

He says, "I find a model. I try to get blackout drunk and make love to him, and that's how I spend the day." It sounds kind of, you know, not the great- - That's what Kevin says, not Rebecca. - That's not what Rebecca does. That's what Kevin does. Rebecca says, "You know what? I make your dad's favorite lasagna. I, you know, prep it from top to bottom or whatever. I sit there, I watch the Super Bowl, and I eat it." - And I wait for a sign. - And I wait for a sign, yeah. - I wait for him to give me a little sign at some point throughout the day. - Yes. - I tell Miguel to leave.

- Miguel normally just gives her... - Get out of the house. - His space. - It gives her her space, right? - Yeah. - Do you wanna know one of the Miguel things that we always talked about in the room? We were like, Mandy never takes off that necklace. The moon necklace, you know? - Yeah. - And like, what about,

When they're knocking voodoo. Is that thing just hitting him in the head? And that was always our, whenever you felt really bad for Miguel, you just thought about that. Like that moon necklace just pinging him in the head. It's sharp too. I love that you have a beggar like on top. Yeah. That

That was always like when we were like, I'd be like, hey, let's give Miguel a good scene, like make everybody really love him. It's not really natural for the scene. I'm like, but think about the necklace. We got to give it to him. We have to give it to him. It's only cowboy. It used to be all missionary with Jack. Sterling, we know how the necklace got there.

We know what position they would have to be in. Sterling K. Brown. This is a G-rated podcast. I just said cowboy admission. That's not that bad. Okay. Ryan's going to be like, I told you you were talking too much. Too much talking. Wait, and then Randall. Can we get to Randall with his hot dad apron? They contrast it because they say, no, not everybody is like... Because Kev's like, everybody's so...

depressingly sad. Not everybody. And it's funny because you're saying this and I remember reading the episode and I was like, okay, so it's Randall gets to be sort of like relief in this particular episode because things are so heavy. So I'm like, if I'm too big, then they'll just tell me to dial it down. You know what I'm saying? I was like, I'm going to go for whatever I think is going to be fun. And I tickle myself. Like, honestly, I like watching Randall. And I'm like, he is so...

ridiculous. And like you see Sue watching me and be like, bro, what are you doing? Like this is for 20 little girls who could care less about the Super Bowl. It's like, this was my dad's favorite day. Right? My sister wants to wallow. My brother wants to like, you know, forget. I want to celebrate. Like this is a day of celebration for me and my pops. I'm gonna go at it. Right? Um,

And Faith has a lizard, the little lizard, right? - Mr. McGiggles. - Thank you, Mr. McGiggles, right? And Mr. McGiggles gets lost. Oh wait, wait, let's, but that's just touching in with those two. How does Kate and Toby's progress throughout their time? - The VCR eats the tape that we were talking about earlier. - Correct, yeah.

Toby, they take the whole machine into a repair shop to get the tape extracted and repaired. And yeah, that is the storyline for their day, which is Toby getting really his first kind of inside look into the story and why. But also getting to be a hero for his wife. Absolutely. Or soon to be wife. That was the thing about this episode too, which was like, it was unusual structurally because

you know, you're on network TV, you have 42 minutes of time and I begged them and I think they gave us an extra two minutes or so. Okay. But with all that story happening in the past of like the eight minute opening and then like these big long scenes of Mandy seeing the body, there was a lot of past. So I only had room for like three beats of,

in each of like Justin's story, Randall's story, Sully's story. Like there wasn't a lot, as much real estate as we normally have. - 46 minutes. - Yeah. I remember that was a big thing, like begging for extra minutes of time because we just couldn't, I couldn't do everything I wanted to do in one episode. - Yeah. So Rebecca makes her lasagna. - Yep. - Right? She rides the Superbowl. What is the sign that she receives? - Kevin. - It's Kevin.

Because he comes, well, Kev also goes to the tree. To dad's tree. It's almost like Kev reminds me a lot of Sterling. Let us be clear, each tree is probably a different tree that we use throughout the course. Because one of them was actually in Memphis, Tennessee. You know what I'm saying? Listen, Jack loved all kinds of trees. But him having this moment of being like...

Just sort of, I miss you and connection rather than sort of being distant and separating himself from it, but just sort of like feeling the loss and allowing that. That's kind of like what it felt like after six years for me. It was a really lovely moment. Does he, and does he call you on the phone? What happens in that conversation? He, well, he tells me that like, that I was really strong for all of them. Basically just like,

giving me props, I guess, that, and I say that I had to wrap myself around you guys to protect you. I tried, but your dad didn't have to try. I think about thinking about the candy bar and just talking about how, you know, explaining like, I can't, I wasn't there in that moment because I was eating a stupid candy bar. And then just allowing him like, the fact that I

I think because he'd been living with Miguel and Rebecca, like this year, the sign was you. This year, like the time that we've spent, the connection that we're forging, like that's all your dad. Yeah. Well, he also says, she says that every year he sends an unexpected laugh her way and she knows it's from him.

And then Justin calls and tells her the story how he finally spoke to his dad at the tree. And then he's like, Mom, can I tell you something else? And you say, yeah, what? And he says, I'm not sure I was at the right tree. And she laughs. And that's like, I always loved when we did phone calls on the show because it is how we communicate so often with our immediate family as we get older. We're not always all living in the same place. Kevin and Rebecca are just always on such,

different wavelengths in adulthood up until this point. I loved that scene. I loved watching Justin do that. I remember at that tree because it's like so not in Justin as an actor's comfort zone or Kevin as a character's zone to be like talking to the spirit of your dead father at a tree like earnestly and Justin plays it so well because he's uneasy with it. Kevin's uneasy with it and it's like

I watched it this morning, that scene, and he trails off on scripted dialogue. The line was like, "I've become a man that you wouldn't have been very proud of." And Justin just goes like, "I haven't become the man that..." And he just leaves it there 'cause he's struggling to say it. And it's very effective. And then that phone call is so quiet and so intimate. Between them, I love those scenes in it. And I loved Sully's final scene in the episode with Chrissy.

where she's saying how lost she was and she never thought that happiness would be something on the table for her. And that like what she's found in it with him and the way Sully sits and listens to her in that scene. And that it's just, it undercuts it just enough, but there's like such a sweetness to it. And so it's so simple. I really love those scenes. You didn't change my life. You saved my life. And he would have loved you like in reference to her dad. I loved that too. Yeah.

She says this big guy, I was watching it this morning, and this big guy came into my life at a support group and Sully's going like, and it just does enough to make it so this isn't getting too earnest. It's like, it's really, it's very charming. - My job. - But then Chrissy at the end goes, she just goes, "I'm always crying." And it's like such a sweet way of undercutting the scene. I was watching it this morning and I don't think that was scripted. - That's awesome. And then, so with Randall and Beth and,

I'm taking it structurally off and it's fucking up Sterling. No, no, no, no, no. That's perfect. But what you're saying is also such an interesting moment in the show too because for us as actors, like that moment you talk about with Chrissy, I'm always crying. I don't think that was scripted. I think that was Chrissy talking about Chrissy and Kate. And this is kind of the point in the show where we all just like...

fully-- There's no question about who we are. There's no question about where we've been. All these questions have been answered and everyone can fully, like, inhabit these characters in a way that it just-- The line is now blurred between

Sterling and Randall and Chris and Dope. You feel how comfortable I was in watching and skimming the middle and then watching the ends. You feel how comfortable all you guys are. And it's like, it's so natural that it's almost turned into something else. Like, it's like the way Justin's not completing sentences or the way you and Chris, you're looking at the way Sterling and Susan are being funny with one another. And then, you know, Randall's going to

crack at some point like it all is just very like not it's so natural that it's like it was like i think that was when we were really hitting our stride in that level we talked about that with john and glenn too like and the the support that you gave us and the creative support that they gave us as directors like it just felt it just we had ownership over the lives of these characters in a way that that felt really special yeah sterling what's up

Do you want to talk about finish with Randall and Beth's story as well? Sure. No, no. And then we could jump to the future. Yeah. Let's do that. Mr. McGiggles gets out of his cage. Is that the name of the lizard? Yes. I just love it. Okay. All right. So Mr. McGiggles is just straight. He's escaped. He's escaped. He gets out of his cage. Mr. McGiggles is out. And everybody's looking for him. Yeah.

Beth winds up stepping on him. - That's right. - Okay. - At the birthday party. - Yeah, and you hear the squish. And she said, like, she comes back into the room. She goes, "I found-" - Second best acting moment in the series. - It's pretty damn good. - Yeah. - She says, "I found Mr. McGee. He's in the kitchen." I said, "Oh, thank God." He's like, "Mm-mm." - And her head goes up, her eyebrows go up, and her voice, "Mm." - She said, "He ain't giggling no more." - That's right.

He ain't giggling no more. So this is an interesting thing too because we decide to have this little eulogy that Randall's going to have for him. And this is where the edit is really powerful. Yeah. And even in the conversation and the parallels, I got to say, this is really strange for Sterling at this point in time in life where dad had a heart attack and on that day, and my mom has ALS. Mm-hmm.

and has been living with it. And the whole thing is about how like I've experienced death and sometimes it happens suddenly and sometimes it happens over a course of time or whatnot, you know? And you can say it's going darker than what it needs to be for these 20 young girls. So Beth steps in, but like it's a moment of like him just sort of, you know, feeling it, just feeling it, right? And this whole time Tess is going through, I guess I go back one sec because

just surrounded by women all the time. And Randall's like, we need a boy in here. Like we're trying to open up to be foster parents again. And there's a quick cut to this little boy, Jordan, right? Who's just adorable. And he's talking to his social worker and we're like, oh, Randall's about to get this little boy in the house. It's going to be great. Right? So then we go, Tess is sort of like peering in on things and,

watching what's going on, listening to her mom on the phone, et cetera. And at one point in time, she like goes upstairs and it's just sort of out of sorts. And dad goes to follow her and is like, "What's going on with you?"

And she's talking about how, you know, it seems like you're really excited to be fostering and whatnot. And it seems as if like, we're not enough. Like you're always, you're trying to buy buildings. You're trying to foster other kids. Like I thought that we were gonna be enough. And I tell this to my son, like all the time, and you know the words better than I do, but I was like, it wasn't until you came that I essentially had the privilege of calling myself a dad.

Right? And it's way more poetic than this. And I hate that I'm not remembering like these lines because

There's something really beautiful that I say to her and I wouldn't be who I am without you. So please know that you are more than enough, right? So we throw to the future now. And what we think is this little boy who's about to start coming to life. We don't realize it's the future, by the way. We just think it's another story. We just think it's another story. We think that this little boy is about to possibly come into the Pearson's life.

And it turns out we see old Randall for the first time. A little backstory, BTS behind this. I hate the makeup for original old Randall. Hot take. Hot take. I have like a full--

fucking facial thing with jowls. It's got like a big wart on my neck and like my wife is like, did he just let himself go? Like what happened to Randall? I was like the dude who runs marathons and all that shit. Child, please. I would look at John and Glenn and I would just be like,

Look, they have shots of like old Jack and stuff looking like a silver fox up in this piece later on the show. Old Randall just like... Look, I know black men don't live that long. But I was like, God bless America, y'all. And this is why. We had to...

Because I was very worried about the, like I needed the audience to follow the time jump. Recognize him, but we pushed it. And then I remember not being pleased with it, but knowing it was getting the job done for what I needed to get done. And then we started pulling back. Then we started to pull back as time went on, right? He lost a little weight. Because in this monologue, you talk about the future when you're talking to young Tess about one day I'll pick you up.

when we'll go to lunch that's right right yes he does pick her up from work and so and like casting that was crazy yeah insane because iantha who plays older tess who was the social worker that we didn't realize was actually my daughter right

looks so much like heirs. - Yeah, yeah. - Who plays Tess. That it's like when people watch it and then they go back and they're like, you put her right in front of our face. - Yeah. - And we had no, which is, see now this is something you enjoy to do. - I do. That was a particularly, when we found her, I was like, oh, this is gonna really, really work. - Yes. - That was cool.

Yeah, it was fantastic. And so this is the first time that we jumped. This is like Lost Season 4 when they have the flash forward. We introduce like a whole new time period. And then throughout the next period of time, we will jump to this period of time and everybody's now guessing who's made it.

Who hasn't? And who are they going to see? Yes. Do you say we have to go see her? We have to go see her. She says, I'm not ready. Yeah. Right? Is that 214? That's 214. That was the big thing. That was the Super Bowl. Yeah. So, and that's pretty much. You should watch the show, Sully. It's great. No, but it happens again in 218, right? We did a lot of those flash forwards. Is it 218 or 214? It happened. No, no. It's 214.

- It's in 214 as well. - Definitely happens in 218. - It does happen in 218. - And so it must have been in both episodes. - Maybe, okay. - Yeah, it is. It absolutely is. - It absolutely is. - I watched the show, Dan.

so the point is the point is i watched the show i didn't mean to insult you so you take you take the swings right you pay off the question that people have been asking for the past two seasons and then expertly introduce something else for them to think about is are we at a place i'm curious because i've even had this conversation with dana walden where just the story itself is not enough to get

people in like you have to have like the extra hook you know i don't know i mean i think that you def the extra hook doesn't hurt if it's natural to your show propulsion sure and like in this in this era where um there is a lot of things competing for attention like can beautiful only hold people anymore yeah you'd like to think it could but but you do need i mean

if you look at succession as an example of a show that's kind of cut through like that was a family thing but then they had like they had this looming question of who's going to win who's going to succeed the father they had a murder in the first season like you know what i mean like yeah and you do it's hard you know you look at the shows that are successful right now you know severance white lotus

you know our new show yeah there's a there is a there's a there's a propulsion there's a propulsion and often a mystery to them that is making it audiences demand to go click on them and it's like yeah and we had that in a very surprising genre yeah and we kept we tried to keep it going throughout because it was something people liked about the show without it ever overwhelming which is what secrets is jack holding what is the secret of the future storyline how do all these pieces intersect yeah and i think we did it really successfully

um it's kind of giving people the you know the the treat to go with the medicine the medicine and so i think that was something that was organically built into the show yeah do you need it nowadays i i don't know but it sure doesn't hurt if you have it if you're trying to make noise it doesn't hurt yeah dan doesn't know because he always has it just an eight we've been kicking in with my man dan fogman we're gonna keep him with us for a bit while we get into our favorite section of the show our fan segment we'll have more that was us right after this

And welcome back to our favorite moment of the podcast, the fan segment. Okay, it's time for some fan questions, which, as you know, is one of our favorite parts of the show. We've got to keep it up the whole time now. And it's even better because we have Dan with us today. We do. So here are some questions that we've gotten, especially for you, Mr. Fogelman. Who wants to take the first one? Question one. I'm kidding. Dan asked me to do a voice, so I did a voice. All right, question one. Did the show unfold as the seasons went along

Or did he know how it would go from the beginning? It definitely unfolded as it went along. We liked to present that we had the whole thing figured out from the beginning, but the truth was it unfolded every season and we would find little things and then go back, like I was speaking about earlier, realizing we had pictures of the kids as young kids all over the show and then realizing, oh, it'll be good if Jack grabs some pictures from the house during the fire. That is a small example of how it would evolve throughout. But you did have things like

I wanna point out the foresight of catching footage of the kids when they were younger that you knew you wanted to use in season six. - In the finale, the series finale, yeah. - So there are things that they would shoot. We would shoot, I remember one, was it in season two? Would it be like six something, dah, dah, dah, and you guys would go off and shoot these things

then save the stuff for four and a half five years to use it later yeah but in reality if i'm if i'm being honest one of my great regrets if i could do it all over again yeah is i would have done that all at the beginning of season one with those kids sure and with mandy and milo and i would have like spent six months shooting tons of stuff yeah and then that could and that could boyhood style and that could have been the sixth season of the show kind of like in some ways of the backstories

I didn't have the foresight then. I did it after the second or third season when we were like having great success. So it's like, it's always a hybrid of like, it wasn't all just like kind of like preformed. You also, the,

The hugest pivot that the show made to accommodate real time was the pandemic and George Floyd. And like you really being intentional and saying like, I think our show has the ability to address these things and doing it while still keeping the track moving with the rest of the narrative of the show. I still have the hate mail to prove it. Yeah. I'm sure. Tons. Some of my favorites. In fact, we have one right here. Go ahead. Dear Dan.

Do you know if Dan had written an alternative way that the story could go on? As in Jack not dying so soon in the show, and if he did have him in the show longer, maybe he would have died from something else and not the after effects from the house fire. We didn't have another plan. There was, at the end of the show, there was like a little bit of conversation of, you know, nobody really wanted it to end. I knew it needed to end. And there was a little bit of conversation about talking about the family when we get to the very, very end of the series. Yeah.

of doing something with the family whose lives intersected with Jack at the hospital that night. Oh, yes, yes, yes. And maybe making a completely different family born out of the night of tragedy that we would then go off and follow. So it would be more of a spinoff than a continuation. And at the end of the day, it's just, I was like, I don't want to do this without Jack.

the guys, I kind of need to step back from family dramas. And we just couldn't quite figure out that we had the appetite for it. - Okay. - I agree with that. - That was the only place that it ever came up. - You'd pitch that as like that family that intersected with them and like the people that moved into the house, like as a house thing. - We always talked about a couple of different pivots that like "This Is Us" could potentially be a genre

about a family with each family has their own story to tell and the lives that intersected and the mysteries of that family but i i just couldn't see a way we had hit our limit of runway with um we'd gone so deep in the future i just didn't know how to continue the story all right here's one

Could someone please ask Dan Fogelman what on earth he was trying to do to us single women? Because guys, as a long-term fan of the show, I am telling you that Jack Pearson, I mean all the men on the show, of course, but Jack is something else.

is one hell of a target for men to live up to. What's a woman meant to do out here in the real world? The idealization of Jack. What were you trying to do? Like ruin him for everybody? Yeah. I mean, the ironic part is my father, who's like a big, kind of like growing up was like a big Jewish James Gandolfini type, was like, I'm Jack, right? Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. Like, I can't believe I'm Jack. But that also has to do with Milo sort of stepping in. Because you would have pictured him slightly different physically, right? Initially? Yeah, I pictured him a little bit more kind of normal. Meaning like a normal... I pictured him kind of like me. I always thought the example I give was that... Seth Rogen turned the park down.

I pictured that the opening shot when you see his ass would be funny. Got it. And not women going like, I got to watch this trailer again and again and again. I thought it would be like, you know, when your wife sees like you regular guy's ass and she loves you and she loves you and she laughs. But like, it's not like she's like so hot that she needs you that moment. Yeah.

No, no, I know that feeling. But the ironic part about Jack in those opening seasons is like, he's a very flawed dude. Like, I mean, this is a guy who's made decisions old school style for his family and his wife. He's like very explosive at her at times. He is an alcoholic. And like, and I always struck me that like,

so many women would come after Rebecca and be like, be happy, he's hot and he's kind and he cares. With all the women, they'd come after Chrissy about Toby. They'd come after Sterling Times about Beth. You know what I mean? It was interesting to me always that... This was like the lens of people viewing the show that always fascinated me. They viewed the Pearsons as this perfect family. Yeah. And it's the most imperfect on paper. If you wrote it all down, like complicated...

imperfect gathering of people but the way it was filtered through people's mind as this ideal family right is also true yes your family is also ideal right they every family with all of their flaws is ideal if you choose if you view it through this lens i think part of it too is there's

there's so few, I mean, people had a reaction to Milo in that role. So that's part of it that you cannot just like, he was just so good in it that like you can't discard it. I also think the way he was written, bro, is it's his imperfection that actually makes him like want to get, people want to get inside more. His mystery, right, draws women. And his butt, and his butt. And his butt. And all the men in the show, all four of them,

or five of them were kind of, I think there was something, there's a lot of anti-hero men on TV and there's a lot of like sitcom dads, right? But like the fundamentally decent man who's deeply flawed but is trying to be good. Yeah.

was like a sweet spot we hit on the show with all five of our dudes, which are like, these are good people. You would frame them all as good people who are really fucked up and flawed in a multitude of ways, big and small, but they're all desperate to be good.

And I think you can, the television landscape is littered with those type of guys, whether it's like Kyle Chandler in Friday Night Live, you know what I mean? Or like that, and they're few and far between because so often it's, you know, the anti-hero. But it's even why people like James Gandolfini in The Sopranos, I mean, he was a violent mobster, but like at his heart, he just wanted to be the dad who like tended to the ducks in his backyard. So even that, it's like people just need a kernel of somebody trying to be decent to really fall in love. And then it's just the right actor in the right part. Yeah.

My wife, Stacy, and Dan went to camp together back in the day at BRDC, Blue Real Day Camp. Blue Real Day Camp. That's funny. In the carnival episode where I believe Jack and Rebecca had their first kiss were the clown garbage cans and Easter egg for the If You Know, You Know fans. No. I wish I could say they were to make everything... So wait, tell us about this camp. What do you know if you know? What kind of camp did you go to with clown garbage cans? The clown garbage cans.

there were people who dressed up like clowns at the morning assembly. I'm trying to remember that part. A lot of clowns today. It wasn't like I went to a clown camp. There was 100% more clown conversation than I thought there would be. That's really funny that the Blue Ridge A-Town shut up. I guess we could take this last question because it is pretty funny. If Sylvester Stallone exists in the This Is Us universe, who plays Rocky's son,

in the movie Rocky Balboa from 2006. And if it's still Milo, does that mean that Jack just looks a lot like Milo? There's a lot of like Matrix style, like repercussions to Sylvester Stallone being in the episode. We talked about it a lot and just went with it. Yeah.

Yeah, just one with it. But I got to go to Sly, when we did that episode, I got to go to Sly's house to woo him. And, you know, we got an entry point through Milo and we got, we basically, I think he agreed to do it because he loved Milo even though he wasn't going to really have scenes with him in it. And his whole family and like kind of support staff at his house as I was walking in was a really big deal because they were all watching This Is Us at the time. And I think they, it was unclear how familiar he was with the show, but I think he wanted to do it to like make his family

happy. And it was like a very cool meeting of like driving up to Sylvester Stallone's house. It was like sitting in the house, like talking to him about doing This Is Us was like really cool. That was a really cool moment. Yeah. We'll sign off. Thank you guys so much for these questions. This was great. This is our time with Dan Fogelman. Is there anything...

I mean, you're onto a new show right now. We get a chance to do this thing together. In the midst of doing the new, what, if anything, do you miss of the old? I miss the show and I miss doing that show. I mean, it was so soulfully deep and important to me that there's a difference between taking a scene in another project and say, "Here's something intimate from my life or my life experience."

and I want that to frame a scene in the show. It's like something I always try and do. When you're actually able to say, here's something intimate from my life, and then I'm going to actually execute that directly into a show without like, not just the themes of it or the exploration, but like, I'm going to like take this episode we just did and like every single character is exploring like immediate grief in a very different way, right? And that was like all the things I've gone through at multiple like losses in my life. And I was like, oh, I'm going to be able to do it directly.

Like in a hospital scene with a family. And so I miss that. Is it cathartic? It did it at the time. I think in retrospect, I rarely look back at the show. This morning I was rushing here and I wanted to like reorient myself to the episode. So I kind of watched the first 20 minutes and the last 10. I rarely watch the show, but it is like, you know, I don't know how much longer like I do this or how many more shows and films I'll make, but this will always be like,

Like it's a, it was a, you know, up until I was 45 years old, this is a, it's like a, it's like a screenshot of my life experience in one TV show and all the people's experience who made it. But like, it's the closest, it's the closest I won't Trump, you know what I mean? Doing that show because it was like, it was my, it was just writing about my life. Sign us off.

Guys, thank you so much. Thanks for listening. Damn, thank you. Thank you for coming in. We appreciate you. Thank you, fans. If you guys like it, tell a friend. Like, subscribe. Stay tuned for more. We enjoy doing it. I hope you guys enjoy listening and or watching. We love you. We'll see you next week. Bye. Later. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da-da-da-dum.

That was us.