The Pearson Family Wagoneer | "The Car" (S2E15) with Elizabeth Berger and Isaac Aptaker
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On today's episode of That Was Us, we'll be discussing season two, episode 15, The Car. On the day of Jack's funeral, we see the history of the Pearson family as seen through their family car, the Wagoneer. Plus, Rebecca finds solace with an old friend who reminds her how strong she is in the toughest of circumstances.

- Mandy Moore, Chris Sullivan. - We're back. - Sterling K. Brown. - It is so good to see you guys. - It's good. You guys are a sight for sore eyes, as they say. - So let's go with full disclosure here. We're going slightly out of order for our listeners, but they'll hear this after the fact, right? Because we're doing episode 215.

We're skipping over to 14 because we wanted to find some time for Dan Fogelman to come and join us because we think it's a very special episode, right? Correct. But life has been lifing for everyone. It's been a couple of months since last we've been together in the same space. Yeah, I think we were last together, was it December?

- Was it December or did we do it this year? - November. Wow. - November. - Is that true? - It was November? - End of November. - Holy cow. - Yo. - And this is Fe-- March. - March, March. - Golly. - March. - March. - March. - Jiminy Christmas. - I know. - Heaven to Murgatroyd. - Jiminy Christmas, golly goops. - Heaven to Murgatroyd. - So life's been lifin'. 'Cause I was hopin' we were gonna do 2/14 first, but life is happenin' the way that it is.

I wanna check in with everybody. Chris, you've been out shooting in Toronto, new show. How you feeling? How's it been going? Everything is good.

Whenever a project ends, I have a little bit of relief. And then there's about 48 hours before I text my entire team and go, so what... So am I ever going to work again? So what are we doing now? So what are we doing now? I don't know. The last few days, my brain has been all over the place and I'm feeling very ungrounded. Really? Yeah, yeah. I'm like flighty and like forgetting things and...

trying to like resettle in myself. I keep injuring myself, which is always a bad sign. Like tripping or like dropping things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like dislocating a knee and pulling it. Oh, wow. No, like injury. Are you okay? I'm all right. He's okay. Everything's fine. Okay, okay. But things, yeah, things feel...

unsettled so yeah well i'm i'm in the air i've been very excited to see you guys because this is actually very grounding for me and can i say on our break yes i have listened to episodes of this pod and it's like been a balm for me to hear your voices yeah to think about the show how much i love you guys like it's been i was like wow this is a

listening to like the Isaac and Elizabeth episode, I was like, this is good. I'm interested. I had the conversation, but it was still revelatory for me here. Like, oh, I don't remember any of this. Listen, just putting it out there. We know that you've gone through so much. Amanda Lee Moore, like so frigging much. And I just want to know you and your family. We're okay.

Yeah. I'm like, I'm not going to get emotional at this point. We're okay. Yes, we're okay. We're happy. We're healthy. We're safe. We're together. Yes. And it's, yeah, we're putting one foot in front of the other. I have, my in-laws are living with us, which sounds like it could be a tricky situation, but we have loved it. I've loved having like

That energy there, my father-in-law is unfortunately not in good health. So it's been lovely to have that time with him and for him to be around the kids and they lost their home. And so it's like to be able to heal together has been really special. And so, yeah, so we're all in like a cool little rental and it's an adventure. And my boys are in a new school because their school is gone. Like it's been a lot of change, but we're okay. We're okay. Is it one of those things for the fellas that,

because they're young, what's the resiliency like for youth versus adults? I think that's the key has been about like providing that safety and that structure. So what they come away from this experience with is resilience. It's like, wow, maybe my four-year-old will maybe remember this time, but hopefully it's just punctuated with like, oh, that time that we lived in a new house for a while with Papa and Gaga and blah,

But we were, we came out of it stronger and we were together. And my little guy is two and then Lou is five, five months old. So she, yeah. But, but they're like, they're leaning into this sense of like adventure. And it's been hard, I think way harder for us, especially like in the beginning to like,

have these very hard adult conversations in front of little ears, but it was just like the insurance adjuster and the thing and the, but these people are here and that, you know, like that, those conversations, it was hard to kind of like temper that with them. But, um, but now that that's sort of like less present, um, I think it's been a little easier. Okay. Yeah. We're good. Thank you. That's always one of the, one of the,

that's hard to fathom for me when stuff like this happens. You're dealing with the thing that happened and now you're dealing with paperwork. Yeah. And phone calls. Yeah. And like, even in this episode, you know, you lose, you lose, in this episode of This Is Us, you lose someone. Now you have to plan a funeral. Now you have to like,

deal with appointments and it just doesn't seem like which feels so bizarre the pause button should be hit for a second right yeah and the fact that it's not like that's not available is so jarring and isolating too like oh I would drive like

half a mile away from my house and the part of Altadena that burned and all of it did. And I'd be a half a mile down the road and it was like people were walking to CVS and like going about their lives. And I'm like, this is so disorienting. Like, do they know what's happened just up the street? Like, but that's what life is, you know? And yeah. Yeah.

It's strange. Strange times. I texted Dan. I was like, me and Milo? Like both? It's just the most bizarre thing in the world. I was like, do you have some weird? We'll talk about 214. We'll talk about it. For sure. Nuts. Yeah. I know. Anyway, 215. Let's talk about 215. So one of the things that I recognize from listening to the podcast and actually getting feedback, and I agree with it,

is that Sterling talks too much. No, I absolutely disagree. Sterling talks too damn much. That is incorrect. Who gave you that feedback? Who gave you that feedback? I got it. From who?

- A person. - One person. - Who listens astutely to your voice. - Okay, was it someone under your roof? - No, no. It wasn't anybody, but people were always saying, and I think this is an apropos time to do it. They're like, "Mandy Moore always has such salient things to say." - What? - Yeah. - "I wish we got a chance to hear more of her voice." - That is- - Mandy Moore. - That is-

This is your... No, no. Sterling, first of all, I absolutely disagree with that comment towards you. You are a natural leader. You help drive the conversation. You guide us through the conversation. Please don't stop talking. Yeah, please don't. What if we stop talking and you and I look at each other and we're like... We don't know what to do. Anyway. Episode 215. Yeah.

- Was a time. - Do you remember that? - Yeah. - Turns into like a Chris Farley interview. - Do you remember that? - Remember the time? - Yeah. I absolutely disagree. - Let's get that one person on the phone right now. Let's go to the phones. We have them on the... - Okay, but in all sincerity,

When we talked about this a little bit with Isaac and Elizabeth, I believe, who pop in, right? But this was a real turning point for Rebecca's character. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And there's a couple of things that like I'll highlight and then I'll pass over because there is, we start off with her in the car by herself and it's the first image after 2:14. - The fire, yeah. - After the fire, right? And just sort of like, okay.

How is this family going to move forward right now? Sure, sure, sure. A foursome that was a fivesome. And there's two things that I clock in my head pretty immediately. One was the bridge, right? And how she has to close her eyes when she crosses the bridge. And there was something else too that was...

Like her sort of admitting a certain sort of like frailty or weakness, et cetera. Obviously the conversation with Dr. Kane, we'll all get to it soon, right? Because it's a real turning point for the character. Absolutely. I just wanted to hear you talk about that. Yeah, I mean, I love the idea of telling the story of this family and as it relates to this car. It almost...

kind of is given personification. It is part of the family. It is such an unmistakable part of the story of the Pearsons. And so to kind of go back and forth and show them first acquiring the car and how the car is being used now. I loved those sort of vignettes. I will say...

Personally speaking, I remember shooting this episode because there was so much lead up to the Super Bowl episode. There was so much lead up, I think for all of us, of holding on to this secret of how Jack passes away. That like, just the level of relief of that being done, like was something I remember feeling watching it. But also...

There was a huge piece of, like, because I knew this was a turning point for the character, and, like, the completion of, like, seeing the funeral through and kind of, like,

helping her position herself correctly to take this family into this next chapter of their lives. I felt like this episode oddly had a lot of pressure as well. So it's not like I could fully exhale. And just a little behind the scenes thing. So they, you know, they location scout as we've known as directors and you know as an actor and stuff when a director and

And the powers that be, producers and writers and stuff like that, as they're writing these episodes and planning these episodes and looking towards shooting them, they go and scout different locations. Why?

on God's green earth, would they choose a location for this very special tree that like is Jack's tree, right? That Justin goes and speaks to in the previous episode. I went to the tree. You go to the tree. Milo takes me to this tree in this episode as Rebecca has like, she's having headaches and she goes and get an MRI and she's waiting for the results of this MRI and he's sort of like,

just haphazardly like pulls off the freeway to this like tree that he, he says he loves, which turns out that was just a bogus story. It was close to a payphone. And anyway, so this, the actual location for this tree is,

was in Balboa Park or Lake Balboa here in Los Angeles in the valley right over the flight path for Van Nuys Airport. So about every two and a half minutes, there's like a jet landing at this airport, which means...

For those who don't know that are listening, you have to stop for sound because they don't want you speaking with the jet in the background. So I'm trying to get through this incredibly emotional scene with my children and I'm telling them the story of what this tree means to us and that you can't blame yourself for the death of your father and you don't have to be the man of the house, all of this as it's like...

Like a jet is landing every couple minutes. Because there's a certain level of concentration and focus that you try to stay in so that you can honor the character and where they are in life. And the plane comes. It totally disrupts you. And you're trying to stay in that place. My brain immediately rockets me to six months in the future where I'm standing in an ADR booth

Yeah, correct. By myself in front of a microphone trying to match any kind of emotional intensity. So let's be clear. ADR stands for additional dialogue recording, what you would call dubbing, right? So sometimes you'll hear lines. And it's always funny as an actor when you're watching the show. Oh, you pick it up immediately. And you hear like the dub line. The line just comes out of like nowhere. And you're like, that clearly wasn't on the day. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Hopefully the audience doesn't pay attention now that I've said this, they're gonna be like, "That was ADR." - That was dumb. - For any audience member who does wanna pay attention too much, it usually happens

When you hear an actor talking and the camera is not on their face. It's on their back. Because that's the easiest way to get information that they should have gotten on the day that they forgot. It's quickly been rewritten. Yeah. But the idea is you try to get your voice like on production through, right? So that you don't have to

come back because it's not just matching the voice it's matching the emotional state of wherever that character was and doing it in a booth by yourself takes a little bit more manufacturing than when you're actually in the space so you're out in this field by this tree at night which already is like

I'm a like 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. sort of girl. Those are my best hours. Rockstar. When the sun goes down, it's already hard for me. My circadian rhythm is like. Totally, totally. So it's like night shoots are a little bit more of a challenge for me.

We're shooting with all the kids. It's a little chilly. You know, it's like all the things. And then this jet and Ken Olin is directing. We're already exhausted. And it takes a lot for me to lose my, like, cool vibe.

I remember I was like, this is not okay. I wasn't mad at anyone in particular. I was mad at the situation of like, you guys, we've gone 18 episodes in the first season. This is 15 episodes into this second season. It mattered so much to me. That's why I was frustrated that like, who chose this?

location. It's a good looking tree, girl. I was like, is the tree that special? Yeah. I think it was three different trees also. It was. That's what I was about to say. Like Randall goes to the tree in 1-16. Of course, three different locations. Different tree. Kevin's tree's different. Your tree's different. Was your tree in Memphis?

My tree was in Memphis. Yeah, correct. So they had to find a tree back in LA that sort of looked like the one you went to in Memphis. Exactly. But anyway, all of that to say, there was parts of it that had to be reshot because the sound, the sound was so bad. And re-watching it, I heard some of the planes, the jet anyway. Oh, you did? Oh, I did. I did. Because I think they wanted to keep

the wide shots. I hear you. And it was some of the stuff like that was a little closer in that they were, that they reshot and were able to use. I, of course, still was like, I noticed it immediately. I hear you. It was beautiful. But it was, yeah, it was just frustrating because I'm like, you guys, we've built up to this and I want to honor what the character is going through because I think it's that first glimmer of Rebecca's

Heeding what Dr. K said, which again, we will get to. Sure. And kind of like owning the fact that like Jack was a superhero. She's never going to be Jack, but she has to find that strength within herself to like show up, be there, be present for her family, to help them move forward. And it's not going to be easy, but like letting her kids know, like, you don't have to be this. You don't have to be that. Like I'm the mom. I'm here to take care of you. You have to trust me. And I just, I wanted to feel like,

I wanted to be so I'm sure you guys can speak to this as well like as actors

I go in sometimes, like, not so locked into, like, how I imagine things are going to be and if they don't go 100% that way, like, unfold the way that I've sort of imagined it in my brain. Like, I get all, like, tangled up in that. But I did have some idea of, like, okay, this is how I would love for it to go in a perfect world. And it once, it veered so off path from that that it was, like, it was just hard for me to, like,

feel like I was able to get it back and be present in the way that like I wanted for Rebecca. I hear you. Yeah. To remain flexible of mind can be difficult. Yeah. It can be difficult. That's part of that 85% that you and I have talked about where it's like, all right, I'm going to get this down and then I got to leave a lot of room for everybody else's input, everybody else's ideas, everybody else's, oh, we're not shooting at this location. It's now here. There's a jet flying over.

- And there's a jet flying over. Oh, this isn't, it's now inside and I'm by myself in front of a green screen. Okay, great. That type of flexibility can be hard for me. I get stuck. I can get stuck a lot. - Yeah. - We'll be right back with more "That Was Us."

All right. I've had it. Let's talk about travel. Everyone's got their own idea of the perfect getaway. Mine is to the mountains, I think. A lot of people like warm getaways. I like a cozy, I like a cozy, cold getaway where it's cold outside, but warm inside. Maybe with a little hot tub out on a deck somewhere. Oh, I love that. Or what about a wellness trip? Yes.

Picture this. You're staying at an Airbnb near a spa retreat, morning yoga on a private deck. Yes. Mmm, a fresh smoothie situation in the kitchen, total relaxation. Or maybe you're the type that would rather be in a cozy cabin like Chris. Like me. Yeah, sitting by a fire with your family, just soaking everything in. So last season, we're about to do it again. We're going to take the kids up to Big Bear. Get a little snow action. And get a little snow, put them on something that slides and push them down a mountain. Yeah.

I love that. And we found a nice cozy little spot, like I said, a little hot tub on the deck. We did the same thing last season at Lake Arrowhead. I love that. That feels like a great little family tradition to start. And here's the thing. While you're off making those kinds of memories, your home could be doing the same for someone else. So why not list your place on Airbnb while you're away? Maybe there's a family looking for a spot just like yours or someone just needing a place that feels right.

You call the shots. You decide when to host, how to set up your space, who stays. Airbnb makes it super simple. So while you're off enjoying your trip, your place is working for you. So what's the perfect getaway? The big game, a quiet retreat, a trip back to a place that means something special? Whatever it is, hosting on Airbnb could be the way to make it happen. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. ♪

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Let me ask you this, Mandy Moore, because this is also from the top of the episode. You guys go in, you need a new family car, right? You guys agree that we're not going to let them gouge us. We're going to get something sensible. It's going to be fine. You see the Wagoneer. The Wagoneer is shiny. It's beautiful. The kids love it. The kids love it or not. My man Mel immediately tries to give it to you. Like, dude, we're not in the market for the Wagoneer. Yeah. Right? And Mel's like, all right, well, we got some used stuff outside.

Everybody goes outside, you're looking at the car, the kids jump into the Wagoneer. Jack looks back, sees the kids in the Wagoneer, he's like, "Yo, Mel, can I talk to you in your office?" And Rebecca's like, "Wait a minute, aren't we not gonna-" - Get the used car? You didn't even go look at it. - Get the used car. And he's like, "We're gonna have a conversation." You're like, "But babe, dah, dah, dah." And so this is also part of the transition too, I think. And it's the 80s, it's the 80s right now.

But it's sort of the transition of this interesting thing. And I hearken back to a time when I used to go on road trips with my family and everybody would say, like my uncle would get out or my aunt and they'd be like, everybody stay in the car while they go to handle the transactions or like get in the hotel rooms and everything. And it's like, you,

are with the kids in terms of that. And I'm curious, because you're a modern woman, Mandy Moore. You're strong. I almost call you strong black woman, but you're a strong woman. I'll take it. I'm curious just in terms of playing Rebecca and finding the sort of like, well, I'm relegated to this, but Jack, oh goodness. Are you sure, Jack? Did you see that as part of the arc? Was it a...

frustrating thing or you're just like no this is how their relationship is gone it wasn't frustrating because i just hearken back to my own childhood and i was like this was the roles that my parents assumed it was like you know dad would have handled the car negotiation and mom would have like wrangled the kids right so i think it only takes again being a parent myself now yeah to look back through a different lens and go like oh that's interesting but i also feel like

In 1989, 1990, 92, whenever this was, that's how things traditionally unfolded, I would say, in a lot of households. Right. Most families, a lot of families. So it's only now that we look back, I think, and go like, oh, this is, why does Jack have to go in there with him? Did you guys have a car in your family that was like the Wagoneer? Yeah.

like do you remember a car that that spanned a a length of time not at all we had a we were a van family okay and we had a ford aerostar that i learned to drive on really yeah yeah like the seats would come in and out like that it was like it kind of became like our like spare car my my mom and dad they had we had another car as well yeah but that was the it was like a

a sort of cherry red Ford Aerostar, sort of glittery. Yeah, that was a car that we had for like too long, probably. - Okay, so we had a couple of family cars.

But it's family like outside of the extended family. My mom had a Toyota Corolla that was hers. Then she gave to my older sister. My older sister gave to our cousin, our first cousin. And then our first cousin gave it to her younger sister. The Corolla was in our family in total.

- 30 years. - Wow! - Because that's how the Japanese do it. - I was gonna say, that's quite an endorsement. - They don't F around. - Yeah, right? - So that's the corolle. But the car that we had in our house, so when I was born,

My dad had, well, I wasn't born, he was in 1979. He had a 1979 pink Eldorado Cadillac with pink leather interior. Vinyl top, eight track plan. Michael McDonald was his favorite. So I heard a lot of that. And that was the jam. But I only had that for a little while until we had

This is very African-American of me. We moved to a Fleetwood Cadillac. - Yes. - Okay. And the Fleetwood was in our, that's the car that I learned to drive on. So when dad passed away, mom has the car and we shared that car all the way through high school. And she had it through college, et cetera, probably had it for about 14, 16 years. - Wow. - Yeah. - That's cool. - Chris? - Yeah, yeah. Cars, my dad is a car person. - Yes. - He has a classic car. I have a classic car. My brother has a classic car.

Side note, real quick, I'm gonna let you finish your story because when I found out that you got nominated for your first Emmy Award, you were working with your dad on a car in the garage and I told you that you had gotten nominated. You're like, what? Yeah. You were the one that told him. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I was literally under the car. I was under the car. My phone started buzzing. And I was like, what is going on? And I checked and Sterling had texted. And right after that was Chrissy. And then the group text went off. And I was like, oh, something's happening today.

Because being nominated for it was so far out of my realm that I didn't even know today was the day that happened. Yes, sir. And so I had to do a bunch of press from the garage. And so I zoomed into a bunch of interviews from the garage covered in sweat.

Gargoyles. But yeah, growing up, we were also a van family and we filtered through a couple of like the MPV or the Previa. Oh, I remember the Previa. I can see it. It's like kind of a weird snout. Yeah, real ugly car. And then once, but once we got through like trashing a couple of vans, there was a moment where my parents, I think they had like this Jack and Rebecca moment where it's like, all right, it's time for an adult car. Yeah.

And what was it? It was a 1990, not far off from that Wagoneer, because the Wagoneer is also a 90, an 89, 90, Toyota Land Cruiser. So the same type of vehicle, but it was like the adult car. Yeah. And we had that car, yeah, for like 20, 25 years. Wow. When my parents sold it, it had 300,000 miles on it. Yes, sir.

Again, I have all, like as I was watching this episode, I have all these flashbacks of things that happened with that car, the places we went in that car, the people I kissed in that car. Yes, sir. You know, like the dances I went to in that car. I love that. The drive-in movies, the moving up the back gate, like all of these things. And I've always, I don't know, there's something, the idea of a family car has always...

just been in me because of my dad's affection for cars and his, you know, my, my, I still have my first car that I got that the Mustang I've told you guys this story, you know, that I, I had this car, I sold it in the year 2000. And then when we came back here to do this as us, I was like, I have like people now.

I'm going to hunt this car down. And my lawyer gave me the number of private investigator and the private investigator found the car and bought the car back, restored the car. It's in the garage that I'll keep. It's like a family heirloom now. So yeah, there's something about the family car that resonates. Yeah, for me specifically. This whole episode was, and of course I'd have

- The Wagoneer, which is now-- - And now the Wagoneer is in your home. - Our family car, our daily driver. - That's amazing. - Dropped Bear off this morning. - And you knew you were gonna get it like a, like you had your eyes on it. - Well, again, it was like a realization, like, oh, at the end of this, they're gonna sell those. - Yeah.

'Cause Rachel saw it. Yeah. And she doesn't have the same love for classics that I do, but when she saw it on the show, she was like, "That is a cool car." And I like stored that away and I was like, "Okay, all right." Okay.

Yeah, and then we sorted it out at the end of the show. That's awesome. Yeah. So wait, let's talk about a little bit of the show. You mean this is us? This is why I do this. You mean this is us? That's the one that I was talking about. Let's talk about it. There is, so there's flashes. Of them, yes, buying the car and then they jump into the kids going to their first concert, which introduces the concept of Rebecca not loving bridges. That's correct. You guys are going to go check out my main man, Weird Al Yankovic. That's right.

- Weirdo Yankovic was a big deal. - Still is, man. - He still is. - How dare you. - Thank you, I apologize. - How very dare you. - I apologize. And it's so funny too, because there's the bridge and you're like, oh, I can't look at the bridge. And he holds your hand and he's like, guys, maybe we just give mom a little bit of quiet. But Randall starts talking about, do you know what the fear of bridges is called? Like I love- - I love- - I memorized all the phobias.

I memorized all the phobias. I can't remember what it's called. Jafarophobia. Jafarophobia. I just thought of Aladdin. I was like, Jafarophobia, Jafarophobia. Yeah. Yeah. Sweet Randall. Sweet Randall. Whoever's naming phobias, by the way. What a cool job. Cool job. Also, they're screwing it up completely. Oh, yes. I remember that. We talked about this on that other podcast. Yes, we did. On Darcy Carden's podcast. Yeah.

Because none of them sound like the thing that you're afraid of. No. Agoraphobia is like fear of public spaces, whatever. Can I just like the Milo and the kids singing la la la la la lasagna was hilarious. I totally forgot about that until...

It was great. I was like, man, Weird Al and the lyrics. He really nails it. They went for it with gusto too. Yeah, they did. And it was so, just the interest, just seeing you like,

It was because I know you, right? And you're a wonderful actor. I was like, "Manny Moore's really acting like she's scared to go across the street." - I'm like, "A bridge? This is a thing? Okay." - It's not a thing. - I have some grace for people, but I'm like, "You're just in the car." - I just saw a story. I'm not sure where it is. It might be in Florida. There's a lot of long bridges in Florida. - Sure, sure. - Across the Keys. - Yeah, lots of water. - That there is a service that will, for people who are afraid to drive across bridges.

And what do they do? You park your car at one end and they come and meet you and drive you across the bridge and offer you support. Like this Jafarophobia is like paralyzing for some people. Oh.

And there was a whole story about this woman who couldn't do it. And so there's literally a service that you can call who will come. You can even make an appointment. Okay. And they will come and help you get across. I'm not making fun of it. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, no, no, I didn't think you were. No, no. But hot take, stop making fun of people. Hot take. My apologies. I wasn't making fun, but it was hard for me to reconcile. That's what I'm saying. Those kinds of bridges...

more understandable. Listen, if it's like Indiana Jones type shit, like this is a little... If they're sluts... Wouldn't...

- It's just slaps. - It swings. - Yeah. - I'd be a little more freaked out. - With a drawstring, yeah, yeah. - I was like, this is a little virgin Pasadena. - That shit would get me, bro. - That's scary. - I wanna talk about like, but just sort of flashing between the two timelines. I wanna take one timeline at a time. So maybe we do, we either do the funeral timeline or the one beyond that. - Well, we can finish doing, I guess, all the other timelines that are juxtaposed in there, right? - Yeah, yeah.

We saw them buying the Wagoneer. We saw them going to the concert. Then after that is what we mentioned earlier with the tree when Rebecca's awaiting results from an MRI because she's been having headaches and dizzy. And Jack sort of lovingly takes her from the doctor to wait to get a phone call from the doctor to this park at night and it's snowing. And he just...

gives one of his like Jack soliloquies that like makes everything all better. A Jack-a-quee? A Jack-a-quee? Yeah. Yeah, I like that. All right, great. He also has these one-on-ones with the kids, or at least he has a one-on-one with Kate and he has a one-on-two with Kevin and Randall, right? The Kevin and Randall one is he's teaching Randall how to drive a car. Yeah.

Randall's very cautious to begin with. Kev's in the backseat like, "Yo man, are we gonna get to wherever we need to go anytime soon?" He's like, "Hey, that's my first time behind the wheel. Just give me a second." And then they just start razzing each other. He's like, "You're still gonna be 40 living in their parents' house or whatever." And he's like, "At least I will have enjoyed the affections of a woman's body." Something like that, you know?

And they just started messing with each other. And then Randall almost gets into an accident and like could have been really, really costly. Both of them at the same time are like, "Oh, we shouldn't have done that." - Yeah, dad's bum. - And Jack is like, "Get out." And he's like, "You can walk home." Like it's five miles. He's like, "I don't care."

He's home, he's working on the car, whatnot. They walk back and they are truly apologetic. Like you have that look of like, you know, maybe I messed up. They're like, no, no, we messed up. We're sorry. It's never going to happen again.

Then Jack breaks into like, you know, me and my brother, when we were your age, we had each other's back, man. Like, I can't understand it. And then you see them both go like. - Whoa, dad never talks about this. - He never talks about Nikki. You know what I'm saying? It's like, what's there to talk about? You know, he went to the war, he died, that's that. But when we were your age, and I love how like, Mano's like, look,

Yeah, I don't, but I need to make this point. This is how important this point is. You know, because there's going to come a point he starts to talk to everybody. Eventually he says it to Rebecca earlier, right? Like, you know, you're going to be around longer than I'm going to be around, right?

And he tells you at the tree, like, I just don't want to be in the ground. Let me be out in nature. Like that would be something that would be nice for me. Right. He tells the fellas, I'm not going to be around all the time. And you're going to be able to look back on this time in your life. And it's just going to be the two of you and your sister that know what you guys went through together. Like you guys need to start to have each other's back because I can't do it forever. Right. He has the same conversation when he's talking to Kate, who's ditching school.

to go and meet Atlantis Morissette. - Atlantis Morissette. - Yes, yes. To see Atlantis Morissette. But he calls her Atlantis, which is really funny. - It's really cute. - He does some good dad stuff in that whole scene, right? Because even when Atlantis starts playing, like in my 49 year old ears, I was like, "He's not gonna like this music." - No. - He's like, "It's not for me." - Even as she played it, I was like, "I used to like this music, and now do I like this music?"

Yes. I was like, I used to love this actor. No, no, it's classic. Of course it is. Of course it is. Don't get me wrong. It is the shiitake mushroom. Don't get me wrong. Yes. Isn't it ironic? But it has, it is a very specific gun with a very specific aim. Sure. Of like emotional fraughtness that I'm like, I'm not that kind of fraught anymore. You're like, I'm not there anymore?

- Most music that hits the zeitgeist does so because it connects with youth and what youth are going through at that time. You know what I'm saying? So it's very specific. Springsteen's not connecting with the zeitgeist now, but he did when he was that. You know what I'm saying? - Sure. - And it's why we love the stuff that we listened to when we were 13 to 20. - Yes, dad. - Let me tell you something about Pink Pony Club, okay? Pink Pony Club,

I don't even have anything.

so she's going to go see lannis nobody never ever comes to their town so he's you know she's like you're gonna take me back to school he's like no i'm gonna take you to the record store so you can see this girl and she's like great great great great great and in the conversation he she plays a little atlantis he's like it's okay let me play some real music for you and and my african-americanist did not recognize spring's thing immediately but then they sort of referenced it and i was like okay i did springtime

And they're sort of vibing off of music together. And he says, this is something that you should really consider. You know what I'm saying? Like you have a gift and I can't remember how the whole thing goes, but he has something again about, I'm not going to be here all the time. Doesn't he? In that conversation. But just sort of supporting her and giving her the wind underneath her sails to say that that,

this is something okay for you to pursue. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Right? And sometimes it takes that encouragement for us who are in the arts or whatnot. We had this conversation. You said your family was with you from Jump Street. - They were. - You guys were supportive or whatnot. But if you haven't seen anybody else do it in your family, it can feel so far away and ethereal. Like how does this even happen? But somebody saying like, "Hey, you have a talent for it." Because she winds up telling him like, "I'm starting to write my own stuff a little bit." - Yeah. - You know?

And like, I don't know if it was a conversation that she would have with mom. - No, no, no, no. - She probably wouldn't. - There was too much animosity and weirdness about music and competitive. - But also like competition, like you do it and like, I don't wanna hear how you do it. And like, 'cause it's just sort of something I wanna keep to myself. But she shares it with dad and he's like, "Yeah, this is something that you should consider." Right? - It was interesting watching this episode now, you know, years later thinking, I wonder if Jack felt,

burdened is the right word but like for him to have these conversations granted they were at very different times but like so often to be like I'm not gonna be here forever like get your together essentially like that's what he was saying to all to everybody in the family like you and your brother and sister need to figure this out Kate like you gotta do this for you like I'm not

going to be the cheerleader here for you forever. And it just made me wonder, I was like, gosh, I wonder if Jack felt like this obligation, this responsibility. I mean, it obviously came so natural for him. But like to have that awareness of like making sure those that he loved recognized, I'm

this isn't forever. Like, you know, never know what life is going to bring. Like, to have that sort of foresight was interesting, but I was like, wow, I wonder if he felt that. Is that this episode too where he has that conversation with you? With Rebecca? Yeah, he does. It's the same one, right? Yes, yes, yes. About like, you're going to live forever. Yes, that's with the tree outside while she's waiting for the news from the MRI. Which is such an interesting way to frame it. It turns him into a little bit of a mystical character because it's like, it comes right after 214 and you're like,

Like, okay, he had a sense. - Yeah, even though granted there was, you know, this was well, obviously well, well, well, like I feel like a year or two or something before that, but yeah. - Right, right, right, right. - But it was just interesting. - It is. I have these conversations with my fellas who will bicker with each other from time to time or whatever for your difference, but they bicker. And I was like, fellas,

you guys are the greatest gift to each other that you will ever have in life, right? So like, if you can actually pay attention to that instead of missing it, like life's gonna keep going, right? You can do it together or you can do it sort of like messing with each other.

- And is that something that you keep telling them over and over again because you're trying to find that moment when it hits? - Yeah, I think it's like Chinese water torture. Like eventually it's gonna make its way into the thing. - It'll permeate, yeah. - Right? But you kind of have to repeat it. - How often do you torture them? - Not that often.

- Like, you know, it'll probably be something that happens on a quarterly basis. - Sure, okay. - Like where they'll have a blow up. - Yeah. - And like, "Hey man, this is your little brother." - Yeah. - Or, "Hey man, this is your big brother." Like, I don't know why you guys are going at each other like this, but you really are all that you have. Like once mom and I are gone,

- I even say that to our guys. - Do you? - Four year old and a two year old. When Gus just like pushes Ozzy over, I was like, first of all, Gus, Ozzy's gonna be bigger than you soon and he's going to beat the crap out of you. But I say that often, I'm like, you guys, that's your little brother, he loves you, he wants to be just like you. You guys are gonna be best friends one day, you're not even two years apart.

So I totally understand that, that idea of like... It's such an odd human... Because I'm in the same situation. Yeah. So I wonder what... It's such a strange way for human beings to naturally be. Yeah. To just resist...

resist the connection. But maybe, I don't know, maybe it's because they are so concerned with their connection to us that there's a vying for like- There's a competition thing? Maybe. Yeah, man, they were on Rachel this morning. As soon as somebody is like, hey mom, can you hold? No, you hold me. No, hold me. No, and it's like this

and they get violent with her and she can't like and he Bear is so strong that's a big bear that she like can't fight them off and like you see Rachel on the ground with like kids crawling over that's what was she was in bed she hadn't even gotten up yet and they and Bear was like I'm gonna go I'm gonna go cuddle mom and Aoife heard it and was like

She jumped out of her chair and just started running towards Rachel. - I'm gonna get there first. - And they both were on her, like head-butting each other. And she's like, "Guys, guys, knock it off." And I just, I stare at it and I'm like, what is, what is this? What is this? - You know how much Ryan Michelle would love to feel like that sort of attention?

- That ship has sailed. - All my kids don't like me. She's convinced of that, but like they love her. - Of course, mom is on a pedestal forever. - Forever and ever. - More That Was Us after these words from our sponsors.

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You have the whole thing about...

My husband being able to see the ruining. So let's go to that end. We'll go to the day of the funeral, of Jack's funeral. You mentioned that like the show opens with Rebecca waiting in the car for the kids. Like she already is sort of like, she's by herself. Yes. And you can tell that she's a little impatient. Like we're running late. Yes. The kids wander out and she, you know, they basically allude to the fact that like, they're like, mom, the service doesn't start for like an hour or two or something. She's like, I want to get there early. Yeah.

And so you're sort of left wondering, like, what is the deal? Like, what is there to get there early for? There's a few things that happen in the course of that day with the kids. Like, you see Randall sort of sit in the front seat of the car on the way to the funeral. And you see Kev clock it for like a half a second. Like, oh, you're sitting in the front seat now, right? And throughout the day, Randall's like, mom, we should probably get to the thing to go to the repass, whatever. And he's like, okay, yeah, sure, sure, sure.

And then he's there, he's greeting all the people saying like, oh, thank you so much for coming. Dad, really appreciate it. Even before Kev's having a tough time with his tie. He's like, I can help you with your tie if you want to. And he's like, no, I don't need to wear one. He's like, you're not going to wear a tie on dad's funeral, etc. And so there's this moment that Kev has absolutely

at the, after, what's it called? The reception. Reception, thank you. And he sees Jack's watch. On Randall's wrist. On Randall's wrist. Yeah. And my man is like, yo, who told you you could get the watch? He's like, I asked mom and she said it was okay. I like doing, I like doing now as well. His deep voice. I asked mom and she said it was okay. He's like, dude, you don't just get to become like the man of the house all of a sudden. Like, who do you think you are? And it's, it's,

an interesting thing to see because it's a lifelong thing that we know plays itself out into the future. - Yeah. - Right? On the other side is Kate saying like, "Why did dad die to mom?" - Right. - And you explain like the smoke inhalation and everything. And you're like, "So he died because he went back in for the dog." And you're like,

I don't know. Like you're not making it a black and white thing. Sure. Right? And she's like, no, it is a black and white thing because none of us were in the house as long as he was and we're all alive. And he went back in for this dog and now he's dead. Right? And you can see she's having... She makes the correlation. Like if he didn't go for the dog, I don't want this dog now. This dog just represents the reason my dad passed away. Exactly. Yeah, it's tough. And to sort of go back to what you were saying about...

and Randall, like it's just interesting because it just escalates again into

all of these things that have gone unsaid thus far when, you know, Kevin's like, I wouldn't have let him go back. And Randall's like, you weren't there. You weren't there, big dog. You're never there. So I guess we'll never know. Yeah, exactly. I know. I was like, these guys really know how to cut right to the quick. There's something that somebody said, and this is not a plug, but this is interesting because on Paradise, I have this big argument with the president about

And somebody on my social said, if there's one thing Dan Fogelman's going to do is have Sterling Brown argue with the white man. This was just the younger version of us, but it made me think of the argument that comes in season four? Or five. Was it five? I feel like it was COVID. Was it five? On the lawn? Yeah. I think that was five.

- With you and Justin, yeah. - Lord have mercy. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - We get there, we get there. That joint was . So it was just the echo of that. I saw like the foundation of it coming. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And hot take, this is where we learn that it's all Kate's fault. - Hot take, hot take. Kate, actually it was Louis' fault, right? Louis the dog? - Louis the dog. - Yeah. - Jack's affection for the dog. - That's right. - So before we get to that final scene, though, we get to the funeral and then like,

How do you call Dr. K's function within our show? What is he to us? He's the wise old owl that Kevin makes fun of for William to be, but he really is that dude. Every time I see his freaking face, I just get a little like, come on,

Come on, man, give me something. I know you about to give me something. - Yeah. - It's funny, Taylor said the same thing when we were watching the episode the other day. He's like, it's just like every time you see him, you're like, oh, thank God. Thank God he's back. - You know what it feels like? Oh good, an adult. Oh good, there's an adult here. - Yeah, he'll solve it. He'll know what to do. And he really meets Rebecca,

in a place that like it's so necessary, right? Like we've not seen Rebecca. I mean, we've seen like hints of her breaking and stuff, but she recognizes she obviously has to be. I mean, the night, the previous episode when she goes to tell the kids what happened and Mikkel greets her outside, he's like, no, no, no, no, no. You can't break apart because if you break apart, I'm going to break apart. So I feel like that ethos is what she's been carrying with her for the last 10 days, however long it's been since he passed away.

And seeing Dr. K, I think he was so unexpected that he would be there, that he would show up with his wife to pay his respects, that it's almost just like an invitation for her to take a deep breath and a relief to sort of confide in somebody like, he was the good part of this equation. I'm weak. I don't know how to do what he did. I don't know how to show up in the way that he did.

I don't know how to get forward. Like I'm not going to be able to. And for someone, yeah, that can see in you what you don't see in yourself is such a gift. And it's exactly what Rebecca needed. It's exactly like he serves this function for this family at every major sort of turn that they find themselves at, right? In the hospital with the babies. This is what he said to Jack.

Now that Jack has passed away, like, I feel like it's, you're right. He is the Greek horse. He's a witness. He's a witness. Yes. And he is the function that Jack is talking about with siblings. It's like, these are the people who are going to know everything. Right. Who are going to know exactly what you went through, know exactly what you've been through. And Dr. K has that quality for the family, for the entire family. And she mentions like, I have been following him around all day because I wasn't there when he died. Right.

And you're like, oh, that makes sense because it's like she wants to be there before the urn gets there. She wants to carry the urn with her. She feels this...

debt of responsibility. She owes Jack something she didn't give him in the end. And I can't, I was like, "Oh, Rebecca." It's like when you make that realization, it's like, I just, you want to hug her and be like, "What are you talking?" Like, I understand and I want to have compassion for that, but no, no, like this is what happens in life sometimes. This is how things unfold. It's so unfortunate. It's so devastating, but like,

you can't carry that around with you. You can't feel like you failed him because of that. And Dr. K says as much and also tells her like, I see the strength in you that you don't see in yourself. And also, just to let you know, your husband had fear too. He used to come in

visit me when like the when when your kids were babies because you thought he was fearless yes and he's like no yeah he would cut like he just would show up unannounced in my office all the time all the time i was i was a very busy man and here's this guy who is so afraid of so much yeah and i again i think that was a revelation for rebecca too like

Oh, he did? Like, he seemed to know everything. And it was so seamless for him, effortless. So two things are interesting to me because we'll get to Vegas is our next episode. And the sort of contrast between Jack and Randall I find very fascinating, where Randall almost over shares his fears with his wife.

if such a thing is possible. And maybe like in terms of like, she almost feels burdened sometimes by like his constant sort of thing. And Jack is the absolute opposite. And it's like how we become the parents or the people that we are. Sometimes it is in direct correlation to emulate or to sort of like go in the opposite direction. That was a thought that I had in that moment. Also just you,

sort of being able to lean, can we just sit here for a moment and just lay on somebody? Like, it's almost like you knew that

You can't put that on the kids necessarily right now, 'cause they have their own things that they're sort of grappling with. Like you have those moments as parents and I know you guys are young, but it's like, "Oh, I just want my kid to come and hug me." You think it's always supposed to go in that direction, sometimes you really do, but that's not the moment. - That's not the moment and understanding that. - And understanding it and having somebody to just do that.

to hold you. Yeah. Such a beautiful moment. Yeah. And the quiet and the stillness of the, you know, what she sort of left in the reception with kids and family and like the reality of what her life is right now. Yeah. So important, I think, for her to have that moment. Yeah. So let's go earlier because we're going to go to the scene at the tree in a second though. But in the car, a couple of things happen because Jack is saying like, we flashback

10 days, eight, nine days, whatever it is. He's like, I got a secret for you guys on Saturday. I'm going to do something fun. You're like, what is it? Jack's like, oh, don't worry about it. Because Jack don't be telling nobody nothing. I guess I was so less than a week later. I'll tell you when I'm ready to tell you. It's less than a week ago, but he'd already bought the tickets. And so there's two things that happened. He was drinking coffee in the thing. His coffee cup is still in the car right there. So the little echoes of like,

just a second ago. Yeah. My husband was drinking that. And early in the episode, you saw the Springs thing tickets, right? Yeah. So you go ahead, you take the kids to the infamous scene where the plane keeps going. Go for it. The infamous scene. And she brings them to the tree and basically explains the significance of this tree and that this is the...

Gosh, this is the turning point, right? Of like the time before dad and after dad and like they're in this together and she doesn't need them to be, neither of them need to figure out who to be the man of the house. Like they just need their kids. 17 year old boys, man. Yeah. Just be that. Just be that. Yeah. And, you know, and it wasn't your fault, Kate. Like she basically puts all of that to bed. Yeah. And like finds this...

air of strength in that moment to like, you know, say like, and you know what? Dad got us tickets and I think we should go. And this is like, we're, we are, this is us. We're this unit now and we're going to do this together. Come hell or high water. We're, we're going to get through this.

And yeah, I mean, I feel like that sort of is like sets this family off. - Say the part about going over the bridge. - What do you mean? - 'Cause at the end, you guys get in the car, you're going to the thing, you have to cross the same bridge that you were going to the Weird Al Yankovic concert. - Oh, that's true, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And you see Rebecca take a, see, I'll be watching you, Mandy Moore. You see Rebecca take this breath.

And just sort of be like, this is what we're doing. And you see that Wagoneer with its front headlight out, right? It may be a little bruised because we'll come to what we hear Jack ultimately say to Mel in that conversation that everybody else was outside of. He's like, look, Mel, I see my family in this car. Hold on, let me jump.

- Your dad had this way of ruining movies. That's at the tree. - Yeah. - He had this way of ruining movies. It's like, as soon as it came on, he knew who was gonna end up with who, he knew who killed whoever. It's like, he always knew. It's like, and you were talking about this mythic figure who just had this sort of like sight, right? And so like all those conversations about, "Kate, I think you should do music. Fellas, I think you guys should have each other's back." It's like, I see it. - Yeah. - Right? - Yeah. - And you say- - And he called it out. - You say that like, he always has a way of doing it. - Sure. - So then,

The car goes over, like it's a beautiful moment, but like him talking to Mel about what he needs for his family. And this is where Brown gets a little verklempt, honestly, because it's such a simple thing, but such a powerful thing. I need them to be okay. Yeah, I know. It gets me too. It's like, wow, because that's like, it doesn't feel like...

A tall order. You know, you're like, oh, that seems doable. And I think that's like the advice that Rebecca is heeding in that moment. Like we are going to be okay. That's right. I'm going to make sure of it. We are going to make sure of it as a cohesive unit together. Yeah. And they are. Right. We know that. They are.

You see, he's like, they're going to have some spills. They're going to have some dings. You know what I'm saying? Like it's going to go through some things, but I need them to be safe. I need them to be taken care of. I need my kids to be okay. I need my family to be okay. So Mel, I can't afford this car.

but you're gonna help me figure it out. - That was an interesting turn too. That was a moment of like, and I need you to help me. Which is a real vulnerable thing for Jack to ask this stranger. - To help him figure it out. - But Mel was like, Mel had a kind face.

I was like, Mel's going to come through. I wish I knew that actor's name. He's a comedian. He's hysterical. Yeah. I think we have Isaac and Elizabeth with us to sort of chat through this episode that they wrote. Beautiful. I loved... Anytime I saw their names on an episode, I was always like, oh, here we go. I mean, it's like, you know, along with Kay, along with KJ, there were some OGs of the show. And obviously...

Isaac and Elizabeth became our showrunners very early on in the first season, but it was like they knew the DNA of the show so thoroughly. Yes. They were our leaders. Yeah. So anytime I saw that they were, it was their episode, I was like, oh, this is going to be a good one. Well, let's have a little chat with them. Let's chat with them. We'll take a break. We'll be back right after this with more That Was Us. Mm.

All right, we are back. We recently spoke with Isaac and Elizabeth. Yes, we did. Our showrunners, but they've come back to join us to talk about 215. Yes. One of the many episodes that they wrote. Them very selves. With them very hands. Thank you guys for coming back. We appreciate you. Of course. We're thrilled. The episode is called...

The car. The car. Do you still own that car? You took that car, right? It's out in the parking lot right now. It's my daily driver. That's so cool. That's your regular car? I drive it every day. I take Barry to school in it. He had it all zipped up. That's amazing. We got it sorted. Mandy told me about the car before I bought it. She's like, just so you know, it's real hard to drive. And I was like, what does that mean? And I got in it and I'm bouncing all over the road left, right, left, right, left, right. And it turns out that whoever...

was never had it aligned oh really so it was literally pigeon-toed and so if you turned left the car was like and i got it aligned and it like that it's fine when we crashed that thing we yeah swerved it yeah yeah it's all over the place anyways it's doing great good i'm glad it says hello yes um

When, at what point in the writer's room process were you assigned this episode? How did it break around the car? What was the idea to kind of make that the, I don't know what you call it, the fulcrum that everything rotated on? We definitely called, one of the perks of like, obviously Dan got first dibs on episodes and then we got second dibs. So we called this one pretty early. I remember that. We were like, obviously he's writing Jack's death and then we want the aftermath. Wow.

The origin is that a beautiful writer who is no longer with us named Jazz Waters had this idea, which was to sort of tell an episode sort of based around the family car and tell the life of a family through their car. And she had this incredible idea and it was so relatable to all of us. I mean, I think everyone, so many of us had that memory of like your parents buy the new car and no matter what the car is like,

In my childhood, it was like an old Volvo, you know, but it just seems like the promise of all of these adventures and that kind of thing and that excitement.

was so visceral for so many of us. And we just thought it was such a beautiful, relatable idea that she had. And that was it. And we loved the idea that the previous episode is so emotionally explosive and sort of punches you in the face with how intense it is. And we felt like collectively our audience would need that exhale that you need when somebody dies.

And that was sort of the idea that like, let's all take, and it's still a really emotional episode, but let's all take that breath together and let's kind of mourn together and sort of make a plan to move forward together.

both for this family and sort of also for the series. Yeah, and also, I mean, it's an episode about Rebecca, like, literally and metaphorically getting into the driver's seat and taking on these kids by herself. And, like, so sort of seeing the... Making the car this very literal manifestation of that felt like it set up this lovely ending where Mandy is sort of taking on these three kids and she's determined to take them into the future without Jack. Yeah. It's a beautiful...

metaphor to focus on. I have a love of automobiles. Obviously, I have a love for this automobile. I still have the first car I ever bought. It's a Mustang that I sold. You bought it back, right? Yeah, I remember this story. I found it, tracked it, sold it, regretted it instantly, and 10 years later, found it. Okay. I remember the family car that my parents had that was like a literal...

Family member? Yeah. Yeah. And they drove it to 300,000 miles. Wow. And when they sold it, it was like, do we need the four grand that bad? Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. But also why hold on to it? The cars are just very interesting things because they're...

They are one of the inventions of the human race that is a human. Like it involves care. It involves, it takes fuel. It has a heart. It beats blood. It has blood running through its system. Like it's, and so. That was good. That was like full Don Draper car commercial, right? This, but this car, and I can only, this car in particular, the 1990 Grand Wagoneer,

holds a place in people's minds, even if they've never had one. - Yeah, there's a nostalgia quotient. - Yes. - And it sits in this sweet spot of like, it's not like a classic car. Like it's not unattainable and it's not irresponsible. Like it's not a hot rod, it's not a Model T.

but it's also not new. It has the newest thing on it, it has a digital clock. You know what I mean? And I get so many people having nothing to do with the show who need to talk to me about this car, who need to touch it, who need to photograph it.

who have questions about it, happened twice today already. Happens every time I go out. Every stoplight. And it connects people. It's a fascinating thing. Side note, do people ever recognize you in the car? Like, what? Once it's happened. And did they ask if it was the car? Yes. That's amazing. Once people recognized me and the car, we're like, is this the? But yeah, so it's a fascinating, and it's also such a subtle thing

connector in our show like there there it is in the background there it is in the driveway there like it's always there yeah yep as as we get into the teenage years there it is under a tarp yeah in the driveway yeah yeah like the eras that this that this vehicle has seen well let me ask this question because you guys were talking about the fulcrum and about sort of rebecca taking like being in the driver's seat sort of like steering things forward because that that is a

That's a huge sort of turn in our show, because I think it's almost like when you watch, are you guys familiar with "All My Sons?" - Yeah, great one. - I feel like it's always the mom's play, to be honest with you. People talk about Joe Keller and Chris Keller, but really it revolves around the mom.

And I think that's sort of the secret sauce of Mandy Moore in our show too. Like, you know, there's Jack and his passing away and there's the big three and the kids or whatever, but the person that is holding this thing all together, who's played herself from 16 to damn near 90 years old, is Mandy Moore as Rebecca. And I'm curious, like in terms of like what happens to 2015 on, like, 'cause I was asking you Mandy at one point in time,

Mandy caught a lot of vitriol. Rebecca caught a lot of vitriol for like, you better respect that good man. He's so good to you. And da da da da da. And even Chrissy was saying that like, you know, Toby's great. Or the Toby Kate thing was a little bit different sometimes because sometimes they were like, I don't trust this dude.

Like, you know what I mean? Those sorts of things. He's too horny. He's very horny. He's so horny in the beginning. He's very horny. He's so horny. I just wonder. That's a little less horny. First few episodes, shockingly horny. Whoa, totally shocked. Let's bring it down. But we did, we just went through the episode where he clears the desk because she came in and said she needed to talk and he's like, I thought, are we not? Are we not doing this thing? But in terms of like,

that how things change with regards to Rebecca being the fulcrum of the past or whatnot. Like, was there, I'm sure there was a conscientious thought about like, all right, we need to establish that like now it's her. And like whether or not she's comfortable with it or not comfortable with it at all times, I'm sure that's going to vary from time to time over time. But like, talk to us just a little bit about like, all right, there was Jack. This is now Rebecca's time.

Oh, yeah, 100%. I think that this episode is that turning point in the series. And I think it's really intentional that Rebecca talks in the episode about being unsure if she wanted kids. And Jack was the one who saw it and really – and she is so glad she had them. But now she's left with these three. And it's like it is awesome.

all on her from here on in. And there's that scene with Dr. K where he gives her what she needs to get in that driver's seat and face her fear of bridges, but really of course much more than bridges. And yeah, and just be there and raise her children. - Dr. K is an interesting segue into this. We've talked about it a lot about the population of our show

as far as the actors go. And it's completely populated with people from television history. Oh, yeah. Is that intentional? Television goats. Television goats that make it feel, but it's so seamlessly done. But it makes it feel like this is my,

"Oh, you're watching? This is my world. I know these people." - Yeah. - Yeah. - Maybe I can't place what- - From Brad Garrett and Katie Segal. - Yeah, which was so hard to get them because the show hadn't been on and no one knew. And we were like, "We really wanna set a precedent here that we can get great TV stars to do these parts." And somehow we got them. And then from there on it was like- - Was this a constant discussion about who, like, how can we take, you know, these TV goats, as you call them, and place them strategically through the show? Or how did that play out? - I mean, I think we,

always just aimed really high. And, you know, we would, because the show was doing well and people loved it, we got a lot of goodwill really quickly. And that's how we got people like Sylvester Stallone and Ron Howard and like these people that maybe other people wouldn't even take the shot, but we were like, hey, we're This Is Us, we're gonna try. And then- I love that.

we did it. And then like, what I love is like people like Dr. K, then these great actors would just give these powerhouse performances. And then when they would recur, like I, in rewatching the car, it's like Mr. Dr. K enters and it's like, act break. And it's like everyone, the language of our show is like, people are so excited about this that they now need to exhale and have a commercial break because like, because let me see a target commercial. Dr. K

is back. But it was real. People would really be excited when these people would come back because they would just come in and visit us and give these stunningly beautiful performances. I feel like Dan has something on Ron Howard, though.

- Ron Howard and Grazer. - He's in "Only Murders" too. I feel like Dan is like, no, no, you're gonna do it. - Ron was in the middle of directing his huge "Star Wars" movie in London and we needed him. And he was like, guys, I'm like, it's kind of like a job. We were like, all right, we'll fly someone to you. Can you give us your lunch break? And on his lunch break of directing "Star Wars," he shot a scene for us in London. Like that's how cool Ron Howard is. - Amazing. - That's how big the dirt is.

Let me ask you one question. And this is not 215 specific, but I just want to ask this one question. Because we were fortunate enough to be number one in the States, all six seasons that we were on the air, would you guys, how do you think you would have felt if that were not the case? Do you think you would have just taken it in stride and been like, all right, well, we're still making a show? Or did you feel like it stoked you? Like, all right, we're on top. Like, how do we stay?

Oh, it definitely stokes you, I think. Oh, definitely. I mean, the expectation was just like, we hope we make a good show and some people like it, you know? And then what happened, I think, for all of us, I would imagine, was pretty shocking. I don't think it's ever the expectation where you're just like, well, we're going to make this, we'll be number one. We'll make the number one show in six years. Six years, of course. Yeah.

But it was amazing. And then, of course, we wanted to constantly outdo ourselves and stay on top. And we really, it definitely lights a fire, I think. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming back and talking to us again. Of course. Thank you guys. Now you can say it. That was us.

Okay, all right. It is time for one of our favorite parts of the show, hearing from you. Yes. Why did I say it like that? Yes. Oh, yes. We love getting... Oh, my God. Yes. Yes.

We love getting your messages. This episode is such an emotional one. So it's very fitting that it resonated with so many people. We have this one very sweet email from Lindsay. And let's hear what she has to say about it.

Called it.

The look of determination and strength on Rebecca's face with the outstanding score playing is everything. Comparing this moment to the scene earlier in the episode where Rebecca is fearful of driving across the bridge and needs Jack to help her get through it, the message of how much Rebecca's life has changed is so beautifully communicated. Now, I struggle with many worries and anxiety in this life, but my worst fear is losing my rock, my husband. Mm-hmm.

All my other fears seem tiny when put up against that. And I think that is exactly what changes for Rebecca as she crosses this bridge. She is living her worst fear. She realizes that the worst thing that could ever happen to her is not something going wrong with the bridge, but losing Jack. The look in Rebecca's eyes says, if I can survive this, I can survive anything. So beautifully written and so beautifully played by who other than Mandy Moore. Thank you. That's right.

That's right. Are you glad you read this one, though? I am very uncomfortable. I'm officially renaming this episode The Bridge. Thank you for reading. I like it. Lindsay, thank you, Lindsay. It's a good name. Spot on. It's a good renaming. Yeah. The Bridge. It's one of the things that jumped out at me as I watched the episode, too. Well, I mean, you said as much when we first started recapping this episode. It's just like, this is the turning point for...

for this character and for this family. - I also felt like I talked too much, but I, and this one, I think I got it. I think I did. - You know, I mean. - Thank you. - I always think it's the exact right amount. And this episode. - I kind of felt like it wasn't enough. So maybe we can change that for the next episode, okay? - You're so silly. You guys are so silly. You silly billies. - Sterling.

-We love how much you talk. - Yeah. - -Sup it up. I love the sound of your voice. -I love the amount of your voice. - Thank you very much. I appreciate it. This is kind of the overarching lesson of this episode, right? We have these fears. We have these kind of root fears. And there is nothing more challenging than when we are faced with them. -Yes. -Yeah. And then we realize not only

"Can I survive this?" But everything is going to be okay. Okay. And it's really, it's a hard thing to get out in front of. Yes, it is. And to release those... That's the tragedy, right? It's hard to let go of those fears without them actually... Happening. Happening. Yeah, without them being realized. You have to face it. Yeah, you actually have to live through it to know.

that you are gonna be okay. You're not looking forward to that moment. Like it's something that you try to keep as far away as possible. But then when you're actually faced with it. I remember just on a quick note, when my father passed away and I remember seeing my mom cry talking to the paramedics, right? And like she was shook. Like she was understandably shook because her husband was sick. He goes to the hospital, he passes away in the hospital, right?

And I can almost, it's like sort of remembering like her going from that crying to being like, like she said to me, she literally said to me, "Well, it's you and me now, big guy." She said, "It's you and me now." And we're like, all right, we're gonna move forward, right? Like she didn't have a moment of like, I don't know if I can do it or not. She's like, this is our reality now. Our reality was this yesterday. Our reality is this now.

And now I choose to go forward. Yeah. Yeah. For every time in my life where I have been in a position where I thought, I will never get over this or I'm not going to make it, I now look back and I can't think of a better word right now, but I'm like, what a silly boy. What a silly boy.

an overdramatic-- Like, not that those feelings aren't real and not that they're not valid. And it's like, but I'm beginning to learn. Like, I'm beginning to learn by looking back at those times. Remember when you thought you'd never get over that person? Or you'd never be in love again? Or you'd never get another job?

Or, you know, whatever the fear was. The fear that you were just articulating after finishing your job saying to your reps, like, all right, guys, what are we doing next? Yeah, yeah. And it's still there, but it's not controlling. Sure. And it doesn't... And maybe that is part of the dysregulation that I'm feeling right now. But it's like, I don't allow it to be all-consuming. Sure. I don't allow it to steer the ship. That's the key.

fear in general, like that's never going to go away, right? Like it is a healthy thing to a certain extent. - Sure. - Yeah. - But when it's debilitating, when it prevents you from living life, from being present, like that's when it's, you know. - There's a simple four words that I reference from the good book from time to time and they are, "This too shall pass." - "This too shall pass." - Is that Harry Potter? What is it? - That is the good book.

That is book four, The Goblet of Fire.

That's your reference for the good book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dumbledore says to him. That's so sacrilege, people. No, it's from the Bible. It's the greatest selling book of all time. Just so you know. A lot of people read that book. J.K. is trying to give a run. The Bible a run for its money? She's trying to give a run. But that sort of mentality. Sure. You guys remember, and I'm curious because you guys, you got three, you got two. Mm-hmm.

That first one, you're like, okay, let me make sure this kid doesn't fall apart, whatnot. And then you get to the second and you're like, he's going to be fine. He's going to be fine. You know what I'm saying? Because you see how durable and strong they are, what have you. But until you go through it. Yes. You also realize how important those moments of pain are for them. Yeah. Yes. Like avoiding them does nobody any good. Yeah.

Or going around them does nobody any good. Yeah. That you have to experience it. Can't go above it, can't go below it. You gotta go through it. Gotta go through it. Gotta go through it. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. That was us.