Time After Time | "Kyle" (S1E3)
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On today's episode of That Was Us, we'll be discussing Season 1, Episode 3, Kyle. Rebecca pays a surprise visit, Kevin makes plans to move, and Toby prepares a special day for Kate. Are you looking to take control of your skincare routine and discover a product that redefines anti-aging technology?

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Visit Lima.life, L for live, Y for younger, M for masterful, A for approved, and learn more about the Lima Laser. That's L-Y-M-A dot life. Welcome, Emma. Hello, we're back. How's everybody doing? Well, so good to see you. This is so much fun. It's ridiculous. It is. It's too much fun. It's an excuse just to kick it and watch a really cool show. Yeah.

I've been spreading them out. I can't watch them back to back. So I've been trying to get myself trying to do like one a night. Okay. Yeah. How do you do it? Same. I mean, I think for those out there that can binge more than one at a time, my hat's off to you, but I just don't have the emotional capacity. It also already feels like a fever dream to me that we made the show. And so in order to come back and talk about the show, I need like to break up.

The episodes? Yes. Totally. Into episodic chunks? Understood. Because it all runs together in my brain. It does to me too. It feels like six movies to a certain extent, right? Yeah. In terms of the seasons. So it's good to sort of go back and get granular and just sort of do one edit. It's hard. It all melds together. We start 103 on the bus. That's right. Right? And we see William riding the bus and sort of the story of William and Randall's mother. Sort of told...

up-style in vignettes without, you know, any dialogue or what have you. Because he's on the bus, he sees her on the bus, they're all looking well. Then you see them sort of together on the bus and they're like happy and he's writing in his notebook and he's come up with beautiful poetry, et cetera. And then at one point in time, you see they kind of fall on hard times. - You don't know what it is. - You don't know what it is, but they don't look as well with each other.

And you see him writing and you can barely see what he's writing. Barely legible. Barely legible. And then the next thing you see, he's on the bus by himself with a baby in his arms. And I'm telling you, in terms of storytelling, like Up, that two minutes of Up, that hits different. It's true. But if you can show it, you don't have to say it. And it was so succinct and so beautiful. And you're like,

Oh, okay. Yeah. It gives us a launching point. It makes you want to say like, okay, I want to know more about that story. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. I feel like this episode just in general is kind of a meditation on grief, right? Yeah.

From my character's perspective, you know, we're jumping back in time, which again, I think is a huge clue to the audience that we're not telling this story in, you know, the fashion that you're sort of expecting. We jump back in time to Jack and Rebecca just about to leave the hospital. They have fostered, adopted Randall. He's part of the family. And, um...

You can see that Rebecca is despondent, obviously. She just lost a child. She's overwhelmed. All of the hormones of giving birth and going through what she just went through are coursing through her. And Jack is, you know, in typical Jack fashion, just sort of like... Moving forward. Exactly. Moving forward, making the most of things. He's excited. He's ready to go get the car, get the babies home. Everything is looking great. Yeah.

And I think Rebecca is just swimming in a sea of just utter, like underwater. Postpartum shock. Correct. And so I feel like we're starting to, we're invited in a little bit on the beginnings of her journey of the grieving process of like just the juxtaposition of becoming a new parent, having lost a child,

You know, bringing another child into the family, still going home with three babies. Like it's, it's, I, I, I. It's unfathomable. It's unfathomable. It was so hard as an actor to put myself in those shoes of just like, where do you begin? Where, like, what emotion do you find first? It's so, nothing is tangible. You just, you can't hold on to anything. You're in quicksand. Yeah.

So I think from that perspective and then obviously your character learning over the course of the episode what's really ailing William and that it's. Yes. Things are not looking good. I mean, there's so many different like forms of grief that I think these characters are are in the midst of, you know, dealing with. You're being asked to put the bonding with.

Randall sort of above the grief that you have for Kyle. If we just go the three triplets, Kevin, Kate and Kyle and Randall is named Kyle at that time. But I'm just going to refer to Kyle as the child that did not make it the son that did not make it for the sake of conversation. Yes, yes. Conversation. And it's like, you know what? This decision was made as a family, whatever your husband being the driving force of that. And you're like, OK, let's do it.

But it's like, I haven't really had time to process, to fully grieve this one thing before you're asking me to do this next thing. And the transparency of Rebecca and being like, I'm not connecting.

with this kid. He's not taking, I can't feed him or anything. And then Jack very wittingly like, look, it takes him to look, look at how fast I connected to you, but very sweet. But, but at the same time, I don't necessarily need sweet right now. I need time to actually move through this thing. And I need an answer. Like I need to know what to do. I can't imagine now, of course, like pulling back the lens of like what it means to be a parent and how, how,

overwhelming that initial time is and not knowing what you're doing, not having any of the answers, having to deal with the complications of all of that on top of it is just... It is unfathomable. Truly. We've all brought home one baby. Yeah. One healthy baby at a time. Yeah. And experienced trauma and rupture between our... I can't speak for anybody else, but the marriage is now a new thing. And the...

How I relate to my son and how my son relates to Rachel. How you work together. All of it. I can't imagine having to do that times three while also having lost a child. Yeah. Sidebar, I have a friend who he and his wife were having difficulties getting pregnant or whatever. And so they had a little bit of help.

And they wound up having triplets. Uh-huh. Right? Wow. And then, so they went off of whatever they were utilizing to get those triplets. But the pump had been primed, so to speak. Got pregnant again with twins. Within a year, they had five children under the age of two. So we will be starting a GoFundMe page for this angelic couple. That is crazy.

Wild. They've all graduated college. Oh my gosh. Okay, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This happened a long time ago. But like, what a feat. Wow. Mom and dad must pat themselves on the back every day. They have to. Somebody better. They have to. I think about that so often, though, in this particular case. Like, we're all so lucky that we have children and families in the day and age where...

it is really encouraged. Like it takes a village. Everyone deserves to have support, like lean on who you need to lean on. And in this case, I thought about this throughout the entirety of the series. Like we're talking about a woman who took care, who raised three children with no help, no support, a husband who had a full-time job. Like the onus was on her to do everything. And it's just, I mean, my hat was always off to her. I'm like, I don't know. I mean, raising three kids,

Anyway, sounds challenging, but three kids all at once feels insurmountable. It does. In its own way. I'm going to interject. Hopefully this comes off as a bit of levity because I think we dodged one of the most incredible bullets in network television history by not naming three children. KKK? I'm just saying. I wasn't paying any attention at all.

And I'm supposed to be, I'm like highly attuned to this stuff. And then I was like, ooh, we got away with it. White family. If they're adopted, black son, the third K. You know what I'm saying? I was like, that Dr. K must have been really charming for nobody. There's a few people that were like, you's really gonna name your three children. KKK.

What if that had been William's response? I think the problem with the bonding is... KKK, do you hear it? Give him his own name. That doesn't start with a K. We dodged that bullet. We made it through. Let me speak a little bit about that grief too. Because it's interesting...

I'll go like macro with the show because sometimes people would get to a place where they'd be like, why are they always complaining about their dad? Like, you got to move on. You got to like, you can't let that be the thing. Right. And I feel like sometimes people will find frustration in that. I think sometimes, interestingly enough, the things that you are frustrated with are the things that you want to keep furthest away. Right. Because the way people process things,

varies from individual to individual, and it takes as long as it needs to take in order to move on in a way that doesn't feel flippant or dismissive that will resurface later on in life, but that feels fully processed and as at peace as one can be. - Sure. - Right? And so you have these three kids that find out they've lost their dad, what have you, but in terms of Randall, sorry, we're on 103 now. - Spoiler. - They know.

I throw this fit every time you guys talk. Guys! Some people might be watching it for the first time! In terms of Randall,

and sort of bringing William back into his life, right? The thing that always sort of like struck me about Randall is he articulates this frustration in the pilot of how angry he is, but yet he drove to see him. - Yeah. - You know what I'm saying? - Sure. - Like all he really wants is connection. And as we sort of like see Randall throughout time, like you see how important

being with family, having Thanksgivings or Christmases and those sorts of things. Like he likes to have life and family and love sort of like abounding in his presence, right? In the course of the season, we have William,

Brother later, et cetera, et cetera. So it's part of who he is. And it's interesting because he reminds me a lot of my brother, who's very much the same way. He puts so much pressure on himself to make sure that the family is taken care of. Right? The idea of after...

36 years of finding someone to bring back into your life just to lose them. Right? Like he's not even able to articulate. It's like, what's this going to happen to my children? Like that, like I'm bringing this man just for them to like not have a relationship. And his, his wife's like, what about you? Yeah.

bro like are you gonna be okay i mean he's gonna fight like tooth and nail as as his mom or as rebecca says later on to make sure that this outcome isn't the outcome that it's inevitably going to be um it and it takes for him to be able to be at peace at it he has to do everything otherwise he the thought that would linger in his head is like i could have done i could have done

done. You know what I'm saying? So as someone who lost their dad at an early age, right? And you had a dear friend who passed away at 21. Like you ask yourself these interesting questions in terms of like, if I had called more, could that have gone differently? Or, you know, if I had spent more time with my dad, if I asked him to come outside and blah, blah, blah. And for anybody who has asked those questions,

Like, I just want to give them permission and peace to be like, you did everything you were supposed to do. Certain things are beyond your control. And learning how to be okay with that is its own journey.

I was just about to say that. Like, I think the connection that people have with the show specifically around grief is that we are giving them permission. Like they're able to see themselves in these characters and just the idea that they're able to see all these different examples of how people tackle it in different ways. Yeah.

I think allows them the perspective of like, oh, there is no right way and there is no right time, which I don't know, I feel like is a great connection point. It was a joke I used to make, but it's, I also mean it seriously. People used to say that the show is sad. And I used to say the show is not sad.

you're sad life is sad like life is sad and the reason you're having this response to it is because there's something in this that you relate to yeah like there's something in it there's something in you that you are either currently going through or something that you're avoiding going through yeah that this is picking at yeah it's touching a nerve yeah do you like that it's good yeah i get the picking that's a good picking action um kate singing oh

and punching the crap out of Toby when he walked over in the bathroom. That was... I will say this. My wife and I have this thing every once in a while where I will sort of like startle her throughout the house. She loves it. No, she doesn't. He loves it. We'll have her on. We'll have her on as guest. We'll have her on as guest. She was on the show? That's right. She was on the show. That's right. And she has come close to doing that to me on a couple of occasions. One of these days. She clocked you. Then the next... First of all,

Let's just talk about Metz's voice, who had not had a recording career at this time. But like, I think Dan heard her sing. It's like, what you do around a writer, be careful. Right. Because they're going to be like, so you can do that? Yeah. And then it becomes like a major storyline. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when we get, we can get to it, but I'll just say, when she sings Time After Time,

And the way in which he's sort of like enters into it and the way she grows in confidence as she sings it. First of all, the invitation to do it like Tobias was the king of the grand gesture before Jack. Oh, certainly. To the audience. To the audience. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like the things that you would do, it was gentle, but it was like, no, no.

I know it. I see it in you. But it is also borderline, like she says in the episode, crazy. That's a lot. It is a lot. The carpet, the car. It's interesting to watch him push the boundaries of what he's trying to chip away at. Yeah. What he's trying to chip away at. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With Kate. Because she points it out, too.

her resistance to it is not necessarily unfounded. When you see the potential in an individual, it's almost like you're like, the world should be privy, right? And I don't want to put a big pressure on you. We'll go to a retirement home where my aunt Dolly. Dolly. Aunt Dolly. Hello, Dolly. Hats off. I don't know who she was, but she gave a look. Yeah.

Watch out, gentlemen. She's a wildcat. And this lady goes. She gave a look that was so priceless in that episode. I was like, you better act. You better act. That was her audition right there. But I don't know, man. Like, I'm actually moved by Toby's, I think the word I'm looking for is generosity. Yeah. You're not overlooking someone who I think is typically overlooked. Mm-hmm.

Sure. I think that's what it is about. And I think I'm also like Sterling is coming at it from like a sort of fraternal place of like, my sister has been accustomed to being overlooked by a lot of people. And there's something that really opens up in my heart about somebody who sees her, not just for like her shape and size, but who sees her and is like,

You should share. Yeah. I did. You are special. Let's share it. Yeah. Your brother's cool and all, but you, outside of all of that, are something. Yes, because the next thing is she's feeding you food that you don't want to eat. And then Kevin comes in and is like, eat this cow. Completely doesn't see me. Does he? So, Kev doesn't. I'm like, first of all, first of all, six foot four, 400 pounds. I'm right here. That's...

That's how self-centered you have to be to not see that person. He does it so well. I didn't see it there. He does it so well. And then he takes a bite of whoever's food. It wasn't his food. Takes a bite of my pancake. He's like, you eating this? And you said, I'm trying to get some sex. Trying to get some sex, baby. There's that horny Toby again. Tobias be dropping bars. Just comes back to, listen, man, I'm just trying to get some sex. That's what you say because

Toby's filter is one of comedy, right? - He's a bit of an arm's length guy. - Yes. - Which I also can be guilty of. - Sure. - Where it's like the way that I connect with people

But at a distance is through comedy. Yes. But when you see later on, because as that storyline unfolds, and we'll go back and forth, but you recognize the relationship between Kate and Kevin is an interesting one because it starts off in the episode, these two can only sleep if they're in the thing with each other. Yeah, Milo says that. Right. And you're like, okay. So they are closely connected in that way from...

birth yes from the womb from the womb they shared the same hot tub for nine months that's right that's right dr k it's good writing it's good writing and so and now that that has and has played itself out over time in such a way that like he sees his sister and does not see the six four four hundred pound man literally right in front of him um and that

you as someone who wants to have a meaningful relationship. This was an interesting thing. I want to talk about this just briefly because it plays itself out over time. The way that the audience

related to Toby was somewhat complicated because sometimes they were wondering if they could trust that he was attracted to someone who looked like Kate. Yeah. Right? And people were very like, what's he trying to do? Like, I don't understand his angle. What's his ulterior motive, perhaps? What's his ulterior motive? You know what I'm saying? Rather like, can he actually be a genuine...

Which is part of the bias that we have against people who are overweight, that they are non-sexual, non-romantic individuals. And so that's why I just want to, when I see these moments that remind me, Sterling has love for Chris, Randall has love for Tobias, but the two intersect in a lovely way because...

It was kind, right? Was it forceful? Like sometimes like with your kids or whatever, you're like, I know this kid can do something. I'm not relating to that. You're treating her like a child. This is my imperfect analogy, if you will. It's like you want them to realize the fullness of their potential, but they have to be provided a forum and an opportunity in order to allow that to be.

And you've picked like one of the safest spaces that you could while still being public, but not so public that there are cameras around and everything else. Right. Because I know you can do it. Right. That's just cool.

No one's given you the opportunity otherwise. And it is interesting to sort of echo to, we don't know this about Jack yet and the grand gestures. Right. But it is interesting, like, oh, so she's choosing a man much like her father. Yeah. We talked about that and you'll maybe see it in the development of my book.

Seasons is as Toby loses weight and the beard comes in. I talked even to costumes about slowly mimicking Jack's clothes. Interesting. Like him slowly becoming more like her dad. So I don't know if it plays. I don't know. We'll have to see. I'm going to be watching this. Different perspective. More That Was Us after these words from our sponsors.

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Okay, this brings me to my next note. It just says simply, Rebecca and Randall. Because if Kevin has Kate, man, Randall got him some Rebecca like nobody. He's got some mom. They have each other. We have each other. It's like me and you must never part. Mandy, my question, because you were originally, let's get like a little backstory here.

The timeline, you know, you coming in, you're playing this woman in the past, whatever. Okay, I'm jumping forward eight years. That's fine. That's pretty much still me. Talk to me about how it was language to you

present day Rebecca and like how it all played itself out yeah that was that was um tricky because I got a call about three weeks before we started shooting the second episode this was like the summer of 2016 yeah that they wanted me to go through hair and makeup trials to sort of see if they could land on a look that felt believable for me to play the present day version of Rebecca yeah

And I was like, what? Was there a moment where they might cast someone else? Yes. Yes. Yeah. The idea was... I did not know that. If it wasn't believable, if anyone had objections from producers, studio, whomever... Wow. That they would cast...

a more age-appropriate actress to play that iteration of Rebecca. Wow, right. And so I kind of... I didn't feel one way or another. I was like, I mean, I would love the challenge, but also, like, I want to do what's best for the show. I don't want it to feel gimmicky or...

you know, like I'm in costume. I don't want to obviously like take people out of the show. Yeah. So I remember there were so many hair and makeup. How many did you do? I mean, I want to say like six. Yeah. Which is a lot when you're talking like, it's five hours to put it on. And I mean, they went, it was like Goldilocks and the three bears. Like initially it was like a full face mask. Yeah. Wow. And like a crazy,

crazy long wig and like full... Looked like Mrs. Doubtfire. Totally. It was Mrs. Doubtfire. Totally. It was that. And I was like, this can't be the direction. Of course, that was vetoed immediately. Yeah. And so it was like just trying to find the perfect like happy medium. Do you think that the hair and makeup department would share photos of those? I mean, I have some photos. You've got some? Uh-huh. Oh, you do? Okay, cool. Oh, yeah. Of different wigs. Sure. Great, great. Um...

A different prosthetic makeup house that the folks that actually make the prosthetics was brought in after that initial fitting because I think they were like, we really want to pare this down and make it as natural and believable as possible. Yeah.

But I do remember the very first thing that we filmed once, once it had all been approved by the powers that be was the scene with Ron Cephas Jones. Yeah. And I was petrified. I was like, really, this is the first thing that you're going to throw at me is like by side. Yeah. Jumping into like the depths with a master. Yeah.

I was doing all the hand movements. That's so great. I was throwing all the arms out. That's so great. I was so terrified because I felt like it really hinged on, like me playing this character at that age really hinged on this going okay and for people to be like, cool, we got it. And that is what ended up being the case, obviously, but it was not without like terrible trepidation. I tried to prepare as best as possible, but it was just like...

Terrifying. After watching the third episode again, I was wondering, I was like, I wonder if there's some evolution. Like, I wonder if, like when I see this, because you arrived, right? And then I wonder how the older Rebecca is going to evolve over the six seasons. And you show up in that scene. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. Like fully, fully real. Well, to our eyes, fully realized. Sure. Okay. Like there's a, I don't know. I can't put my finger on it, but there's a, there's a, uh, um,

a gentleness in your physicality that that was so a lot about the physicality that was so specific to an older woman yeah um it was just it was really great vocal differences like the placements yeah yeah just a little bit masterclass use acting use that let's say let's say right now you in this show you play 16

Yes. And I don't know how they pulled that off. That one shot with the pigtail. And 90 years old. You played. Nobody. Nobody in television has ever done that.

No, it's true. What I found really interesting, too, like you spoke to this in an earlier episode where you walked into the writer's room and the chronology of this family was sort of like taped up on the top of the ceiling that sort of went around the room in the writer's room. And it was for all of us to like center ourselves and the writers, obviously, to like just huge milestones for the family. And so.

I found that to be so helpful. And also we were invited into the writer's room whenever we wanted, but we would have these meetings at the beginning of the season where the writers would sort of like, and showrunners would lay out like, this is what's happening to your character. Do you want to know about other characters? And I was like, yes, I want to know everything because it all sort of feeds into the life of a mother. But this was such a good indication because, you know,

We found out, obviously, in my character's case, like, this is a woman who lost a child. That is something you never rid yourself of. That is something she carries with her till the day she died. And, you know, also, you come to realize in this episode that she knows Randall's birth father. There is a relationship there. There is history. There is...

A lot unspoken. There was this agreement between the two of them. Yeah. And so this is a woman who has also carried that shame and that guilt and that secret around for all these years. And it's just like...

keeping that in mind and keeping that in my body and also like having to sort of separate myself, Mandy, from the character because I just felt so much empathy for her, for William, for Randall, for like everybody involved and not letting that like permeate the character. I've always found that was the hardest, like not letting my feelings permeate how the character was feeling. But it does give you

Just a real deep dive into like what this woman was carrying around with her. And and I had to again separate the like disagreement I found with her. Like, I don't agree with the way that she she was doing her level best. Right. All of the all of us are at any given time. Right. Yeah.

She was doing what she thought was best for her family, what she thought she could handle. And as a human, I looked in on that story and was like, I just don't agree. That's so hard for me to reconcile that this woman knew who her child's birth father was and she didn't allow him into the picture and in his life. Like, what a disservice. What a...

just the sliding doors of that, of what could have been. I have massive amounts of empathy for her. Completely. Because at the time, too, it's still unclear. Like, she meets him. She understands that there's addiction involved. Correct. She's being protective. Right. And even William says it was the right thing.

We made the right deal. Sure. Yeah. But yeah, it's... But I'm sure that it lingered, the doubt, the shame, the guilt, all of it lingered in her forever. The thing that it was such a process for you to get to the point where you could have connection with him, right? That the idea that somebody could come along and sort of like deprive you of it is like, I'm still trying to work with...

We're still trying to figure something out in this boy. Yeah. So the idea that you could come along and sort of disrupt that is not something I need in the back of my head. Yeah. He's my son. Yeah. And I need to like make that as concretized as possible. Sure. You know what I mean? Yeah. Also for people rewatching, go back and watch just the moment.

Before you realize that you and William have history, go back and watch the moment where you tell her that you found your father. Yeah. You play, she played that moment flawlessly. There's this hidden moment.

like panic that comes over your face that you stuff immediately. Yeah. And what's he like? And like, but it's so subtle. And so. Cause it's a moment I'm sure she never thought she'd have to reconcile with her entire life. Like for all intents and purposes, this was a secret she was going to her grave with. Jack never knew. And so no one else was ever going to know. It was a secret between the two of them. And that was, you know, as far as it went. There's also, okay. So that's our first scene is,

mom and son together. In present day, my first time working together. In present day and whatnot. You were so in it.

Like at no point in time. Manny Moore is eight years younger than your boy. At no point in time, I was like, this isn't going to work. Like, I was just like, all right, we're safe. And it really sort of like did it to me because I go in and I introduce you guys to each other and you say, you know, sweetheart, can we have some time by ourselves? Like, you just dismissed me. Like, grown folks need to talk now. And I was like, okay. I'm going to get out. I'll be downstairs. Sorry. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah.

I do believe your performance was unsung. Oh. What's that? The annals of television history, people will go back and be like, what that woman did was something special. That means a lot from you guys, please. Yeah, it was incredible.

I remember during this time, it was the first little bout of really feeling the negativity towards Rebecca, which I understood. The first season had an interesting sort of thing to it. I think Jack was so heroic. Yeah. And some of the decisions that Rebecca made didn't really sit well with people. I think they thought that she put...

you know, her career aspirations and later, you know, episodes before her family. And in this case, I think people obviously, again, understandably didn't agree with the way that she handled having a relationship and knowing who Randall's birth father was. But this was such a different time. We didn't have the same sorts of resources and information that we all would have now. Let's say if we were fostering or adopting a child. And so it just, I feel like

I have a lot of empathy in that regard as well, that like she was really just trying her level best. It was a one-two punch with the Miguel reveal.

And the William and the William reveal. Yes. Yes. For Rebecca's character. It was like, wait, what? Yeah. You wound up with your husband's best friend and you knew who your son's daddy was. And kept it from him. Yeah. Yeah. She was, she did not curry favor with people at that point. So in these, in these first episodes, I know you, you talked about,

having to play a mother. Yeah. But also the logistics of literally handling children, babies. I had never changed a diaper before, guys. Milo had to literally show me how to change a diaper. How did Milo know? Because he has nieces and nephews. Yeah.

He had way more hands-on experience. And I was like, I don't know how to do this. I don't know. I mean, swaddling, I'm still terrible at, but like. So some of the panic was real. It was all real. It was very real. I'm like, I have someone else's children here that I have to safeguard and I don't know how to put a diaper on.

Someone else's children. That is amazing. People don't think about that. They're watching like, yeah, mom and dad are sitting right over there with bassinets full of babies. Yeah. Waiting for their turn. Because like we went through this period. This is just a sidebar of like having real babies on set for years and years and years. Then COVID came.

And then we had like dolls for some time. And then we got back to babies at the very end. Right. So it was a very interesting evolution. And I only had a couple of babies to work with. You had three, you know, because that's how many kids you have. I had two. And I'd had, and I'd had babies at that point in time too. And it was such a,

It's interesting. I'm jumping, but I, this is an important thing because I used to, I love, like people say the animals and babies. I remember when you gave me your baby, I was like, and I remember when we got to the storyline later on where Kate and Toby were thinking about having a baby and, oh, I had a baby. And I remember watching Chris hold baby. And I was like, Chris want a baby.

I've all, yeah, yeah. I love babies. Yeah, I remember I said, it's socially unacceptable for a man of my size and beard to be like, do you mind if I hold your baby? But it's one of those things where from man to man, I came up to you, I came up to you, I said, you want one of those? Oh yeah. He's like, I'm working. Yeah.

Children's response to me all depends on how they feel about giants. And beards. And beards. Their dad usually has to have a beard if we're going to get along. That feels familiar to them. So, okay.

In the previous episode, we have Beth talking about how her husband's superpower is his goodness. And then you have Rebecca telling William, like, you better be worth it. Because my son's going to do everything in his power. Put everything in front of him. To make sure that you're going to be okay. And the next thing you see is William walking down the street. And this was an interesting thing to rewatch because...

John and Glenn, our directors of these first two episodes, will give you a lot of different options and takes. And maybe they'll throw like, maybe you want to say this, maybe you want to say that. Or they'll just let it run for a second and give you an opportunity to do something. And it's funny because I'm trying to get him in this car, you know, and he's a little bit judgmental in terms of like what kind of medical treatment

professionals you've had at your disposal. And I'm like, I can do something here. Just give me a chance to see if it'll be more effective. And then there's the people in the neighborhood who are watching. And I said, hi, white people, this is Friendly Neighborhood Black Man. And that's not scripted. That's not scripted. But it was one of those moments when I saw that they let it in, I was like, oh, they're giving me a little bit of space. Mm-hmm.

To see, like, if I have something, I can go ahead and present it. Which was a cool feeling for me because every once in a while you'll have an idea and you're like, I want to try it. And sometimes it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. And you just kind of throw it out there to see what happens. But for me, too, it wasn't just a matter of trying to be funny, but it was also really...

hammering home this feeling of otherness that is something that you can carry around with you quite often when you are in predominant white spaces and you are one of the few raisins, if not the only raisin, in the sun. Right? And so having these sorts of conversations with your bio father in front of people is like, I don't like this. Get in the car, please. There's good white people watching this. Yeah.

Were those conversations, though, that you went into the writer's room and talked about outright? Yeah, absolutely. I think Dan is just sort of highly attuned to it, too. And I said this in a speech once. Like, it wasn't a character who was written Black by happenstance, but his race and ethnicity were a part of the story. So I think in my mind, anything that I did that served that,

And that wasn't superfluous. It was part of who he was. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah. There's an incredible amount of trust, too, that John and Glenn, not at this point in the series, but maybe because they did a couple at the end of season one. Yeah. And they said to me at one point, they were like, just so you know, you guys, you all have this. Like, you're going to, this is going to go a long time.

And there's going to be a lot of directors that come and go who, who will give you direction and you should take it if you think that it is right, but know that you know this person better than anybody because you're living inside them. Yeah. And they were the first people that, that said to me, so just do what you think is right.

Like, and I hadn't because of my lack of television experience at this time, I was like, read the words, do the thing, you know, don't, don't throw the pot show up. But they gave me just that little bit of freedom to inhabit the character fully and to really investigate, okay, well, what do I really want to bring?

of myself to this person. So we've had this conversation before. We both sort of agree on the 87% sort of thing, which is basically, we say the majority of what's on the page. And then a lot of it just kind of like, hey, showtime. For you, I'm curious, are you a dead letter? Do you try to just say what's there? Do you feel anything in the moment that like, just kind of like comes out?

Pretty much I stick to the page. Yeah. I mean, I think you both are just so naturally confident and funny. Thank you. That maybe you guys feel like you do have a little bit more like wiggle room and freedom. Yeah. I always felt like not confined to the page, but I was like, this is great. I'll stick to this. It's also the character too. Like our characters were a little more from the hip. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Then Rebecca.

When Jack is talking to Dr. K, he says, I think she might be a little broken. Yeah. My wife. I just got to give it up to Milo Ventimiglia. Like, um...

And the doctor's like, you know, normally the mother comes in with these things, like, what's going on? He's like, yeah, you know, thinks she might have needed a break, whatnot. And you see him just being overwhelmed, almost feeling like a single dad. He's not, but in this moment, he's feeling like a single dad because he's like, I don't know if I have a partner in this right now because I think she's a little broken. Yeah. He got me. I'm just saying, like, the dude got me. He searches for the word broken just a little bit because he can't come up with...

He doesn't know how to describe it. Yeah. Yeah. And later in the episode, and it's short-lived, but just like, this is the second time we've seen Jack likes to sit and sleep on floors. Yeah. Because in 102, he camped out outside of the bed like a little puppy dog. Like, I'll be right here. I was like, are we going to make it?

We're always sitting on the floor. I sleep on floors. I don't know what to tell you. Yeah. I mean, we kind of do. You turn on the light, you see him in the background. I think you're going to come back. And I was like, Jack, get off the floor. It would have been great if it became a running joke. We're also a new family with not a ton of furniture in that episode. Yeah. Yes. We'll be right back with more. That was us.

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That journey, like you said, I thought you were going to go to Mexico. And you say, like, I wouldn't have gone to Mexico without you. Yeah. Come on, man. It's like, look, she's like, look, I'm working through this stuff with the kids. Me and you are going to be okay. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But to be able to...

I think it gives a wonderful sense of permission. And you tell me, Mandy, if you went through anything like this or if you wish to share. I'll say that my wife had a bit of postpartum after having the babies, with each one, both to varying degrees. It's something people don't talk about.

It's something like you're supposed to just immediately be in love fully with no exception. That's the end of the story. And for a lot of people, that is exactly the case. And then for some people, it's a little bit different. I think being able to see Rebecca go through that. Sure.

gives permission to be like, I'm not a psychopath. I'm not broken or damaged. I'm not a bad mother. I'm a human being figuring this stuff out in real time. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it is a profound chemical shift in your body, like on a cellular level. It's like everyone should be given the permission to,

as a new parent to feel all of that and to not think that one person's journey is the staple, is the only way. And so you're right. I think,

as our show often did, it gave people this perspective and, and, you know, just the permission, the keyword, just like, this is, this is also a way for it to unfold and for it to look. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if these, I don't know if our show had anything to do with it, but these conversations seem to come. I remember reading a New York times article, um,

This actor who I, who I know from the theater community in New York had written about her miscarriages and it was just people. Yes. They didn't know how to talk about it. More specifically, you don't know when to talk about it because it's an, it's a tricky thing, right? Because when Rachel's pregnant,

At no point do we want to discuss the possibility of that happening. Yeah, of course. I mean, there's a great deal of patriarchy and sexism involved and lack of information on women's health and women's health research and things like that. But the...

Like you were talking about that chemical. Change, shift, everything. You're this unit and then you're broken apart. And now there's this piece of you living outside of you. But there's also this grown man who still wants to be your boyfriend. I was trying so hard to be like helpful. I was like when Bear was born, you know, I was like, I'm an employee.

I'm an employee in this house. Yeah. I do chores. I get things done. I chop wood. I carry water. Now, it took me a while to realize that there was some pouting involved. There was some hurt feelings. There was some like, what is going on here? Can I just get, can I say my- Oh, I appreciate this admission for both of you. May I please have just 10 seconds of eye contact? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll take anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is another side of this parenting thing that doesn't get talked about, the same bonding thing. Because I had a friend right when we started who had just had a baby and he was like, Chris, before we were pregnant, I wasn't sure I wanted to have a baby.

The day he was born, I wasn't sure I want to have a baby. He's nine months old now. Still not sure I want to have a baby. Cool. And that's not... Nobody wants to hear that. Sure. Nobody wants to hear that you're not... Like you're not having any relationship with this baby. Yeah. That is your son or your daughter or whoever it is. Yeah. And it's... Like you said, you're expected to be... Oh my God, is it the best thing that's ever happened to you in your life? Right. Actually...

Right now, it's one of the worst. Yeah. I know it will probably get better. Our marriage was going great. Even the pregnancy was great. And now this? Yeah. And you were pregnant during the pandemic? Yeah. My wife was pregnant during the pandemic. So there's all, obviously, there were added... Stressors? Stressors and restraints. Slightly? To global disease. Yeah.

on mating and captivity. But yeah, it's all of this grief conversation and the way that everyone processes it from Rebecca's perspective, from Jack's perspective, people trying to make things work, people trying to protect their son from outside, whatever. Like it's just, it's the when with these conversations. We don't know when is the right time. And the interesting part about this show is

was that it gave context. And if you never had a time to talk about it, the perfect time to talk about it was after an episode of television that you just saw. I had, you know, Aryan Moyad. Yeah. He used to watch the show with his daughters. And he was like, this is great because every episode...

gives us the context for a conversation I need to have with them anyways. That's pretty cool. And so we watch it together and then we talk about the episode and how they feel about it and how they feel about these topics. And it's like the perfect familial forum for discussion. More than anything that I think most of us have been a part of, you heard how it brought families together to be able to enter into a conversation about something that they didn't even realize that they needed to have.

There was a time where I was at one of these Comic-Con conventions, actually with Milo. We were both at this convention. And the show was in the first season. And this couple walked up to the table, to my table, to talk to me. Not about Guardians of the Galaxy, about This Is Us. And they each had a newborn strapped to their chest. The mom and the dad. And I said, oh my God, twins. And the mom said, actually, triplets.

Oof. And we had a moment and they didn't say anything else. I didn't say anything else. And I just said, I'm so sorry. And we started talking and what they said to me and Milo was next to me at table next to me. We didn't, there's nobody we know who we could talk to about this. Yeah. There's nobody we know who's been through this. And then this show comes on TV and walks on a weekly basis, walks us through the recovery process.

And that was when I was just like, this is more than just a dramatic. Yeah. You would think this scenario is so specific. So specific. Who could this show apply to? And yet you met them. Oh my God. And they were like, they were learning. Like we've talked about the solutions. How are we going to do this? And week by week they would tune in to figure out, okay. Yeah. Real world application. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

The codependency of Kevin and Kate, we sort of reach a boiling point because Toby and his grand gesture pays off. She feels like something that she hasn't been able to get in touch with for a while. Toby is inches from sex. About to knock these boots. Finally. And the phone rings.

And she has to answer it because she knows it's her brother, right? Yeah. Foiled again, if it wasn't for those pesky kids. But what I love about how this whole thing plays out is because you tell her, like, I'm not here to...

to play games. Like I may come off as in a very particular way, but like I'm here because- - I don't do this for just anyone. - For just anybody. Like I'm here 'cause I'm for real, for real. And you're like, I'm not gonna play second banana to your brother. And she go like, you have to, everybody does, right? And you're like, well, dadgum.

But then you talk about timing, like Kev winds up telling her, she comes over and she diffuses, what's Elaine, crazy Elaine or something like that. And she's like, yeah, well, you called me and Toby did this thing for me and it was great. But I had to come because you called and you're like, wait, you were in the midst of this. You answered the phone? Yeah, you answered the phone.

And she's like, yeah, of course I did. And he just said, you're fired. You're fired. You're done. She's like, what? She's like, yeah, you're fired. Like my assistant or whatever. What's that? Like, I got to go. You don't have to go. Like, it's just the timing of it. Justin's delivery of it. Like, sort of just like, ah, I'm pulling you down. You know? Like, you have something available to you. Because she says, I don't know who I am. Without you. If I'm not your sister. Yeah. And he goes, I do.

you're going to like her. Mm-hmm.

"Man, this thing don't show, dude." - 'Cause it's all in the delivery too, right? - Yes. - On face value, you're like, "Okay, that's a good line." But then the way Justin packages it. - There's something about the writing that is so sentimental that tiptoes on the edge of saccharine and never goes there. - Never. - Like it never teeters over. And performers like Justin who just hold it down, like hold it.

And just deliver it. It's fantastic. And he lands in New York. He's like, yeah, I decided. Oh, he called. And then, oh, good. You didn't answer the phone. Maybe you're having some sex. This was the greatest line delivery in the history of television. Sex. It should be. I should make that his ringtone.

For when he calls. He calls a lot. Just if anyone's wondering. Just her reference. Best friends. Calls me all the time. It was so sweet, too, because we have that moment of, like, twins feeling things. And, like, the plane touches down and he comes up and then she wakes up. And you say everything okay. He's like, yeah, he's fine. We're fine. And he just goes to sleep. I don't know. I'm just... I love that. I love it, too. I love that. And then you see...

Randall taking William to the hospital and hearing all the blood tests, doing everything that they can to find out if there's any sort of treatment that can be done or what have you. And at the end of the day, it's as William said, it's inoperable. The fate is going to be what the fate is. And Randall's talking to his wife and he's putting together a puzzle.

I was like, I don't know what I did all this for. Like, I bring this man in here to die so, like, what, his grandkids get to know him and then grieve him. And Randall gets a little verklempt there and takes off his glasses. And she has this way of just, like, putting her hands on your face and, like, rubbing the tear. And she's done it to me a few times throughout the course of the show. And each time it happens, I was like, I feel loved. That's how I just felt. Yeah.

I feel a lot. Coming through her hands. You know, she's just being taken care of. I feel like that's such an awesome thing that you said in the first episode. You see people taking care of each other. And this is just another example of that.

Is this the part of the podcast where we ask people to rate and review? And subscribe. And subscribe? Yeah. Subscribe, guys. Listen, if you guys want us to do all 100 and how many? Six. Six episodes. This was the number one show on television. We need to make this the number one podcast on television.

- Podcast Networks. - On Podcast Networks. So not only the people that you watch the show with, tell them about the podcast. Let's rewatch the show together. It does help if you write reviews.

To bump us up. Sure. Bump us up the charts and please rate with five stars only. Only five stars. If you're going to rate anything else, just don't pause. Don't forget I said anything. We also have our email, which is thatwasuspod at gmail.com where we want to hear your stories. We want to hear how you relate to the show. We want video. We want audio. We might even throw some of it up here on the screen. We're here to answer questions.

questions as well. Yeah. We have a phone number and emotional hotline if you want to share anything that the show brought up for you or anything that's going on in your life right now. We would love to help you process as the show helped so many of us. Sure. Please give us a call at 412-501-3022.

And if there are specific episodes that are coming down the line that you have questions about or stories about, please include that because we want to get as granular and specific as possible. We enjoy doing this. I love being with you guys. The pleasure is mine, ma'am. Sir. That was us. All right, gang. We're about to enter into our fan segment for episode three. And episode three dealt a lot about grief.

So, this time, what we want to do is really just breathe with you. Yeah. Actually, we can do a little breath work right now, as long as you're not driving and listening. Maybe if you're sitting and listening, you could close your eyes, and we could take a couple of deep breaths and discuss what grief means to us. So, if we take a deep breath in on a three count and hold it for three...

and out for three and you can repeat that as many times as you would like okay yeah that was really good actually i think i needed that yeah sure other folks needed that too there's a little reset make space for a moment of stillness in the day whether in your car or at home or anywhere else that moment was just for you in this episode today that we are discussing um

We saw the Pearsons navigate their feelings of sadness, grief, pain, sorrow. And for Rebecca and Jack, there's also a bit of light mixed in because, of course, they're welcoming in baby Randall while mourning the loss of Kyle. Similarly for Randall, he has his biological father back in his life, and that's the light.

But he is also in the process of dying. And so there is also darkness. And dealing with darkness amidst the light can be especially hard. Yeah, we grieve because we love. And when we lose someone we love, we have to learn how to live our lives amidst this newfound empty space.

And a sense of who we are is really bound up in that person. So to lose a child or a sibling, a parent or a spouse implies two people. So when that person leaves, we may feel that we've lost a part of ourselves in the process. And that makes sense because we were part of a we and now it's just an I. Yeah.

So, if you're in the midst of a grieving process and struggling, we encourage you to surround yourself with those you love and who love you and can be there for you and support you to seek the help you need. You do not have to do life alone. So, let's take another moment of stillness and breathe in and allow yourself to just be and breathe out. Okay.

Close your eyes. If they're not closed already, unless you're, of course, you're driving. Just keep your eyes on the road and, or pull over. Do what you have to do. You know what you have to do. Give yourself a hug. Seriously, connect. Connect that circuit. Wrap your arms around yourself if you have to. There you go. Yeah, we just had a big, beautiful group hug. Did you feel that? Yeah. That was a group hug. That was a nice hug. I felt it. Right on. Connecting.

All right, gang. Until next time. Until next time. Thank you. Thank you. That Was Us is filmed at The Crow and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions and Sarah Wareheim. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith.