Too Alone to Feel | "The Fifth Wheel" (S2E11)
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On today's episode of That Was Us, we'll be discussing Season 2, Episode 11, The Fifth Wheel. The Pearsons gather under unexpected circumstances. Jack surprises the family with a trip to the Poconos.

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So, Mandy. Hello. How we doing? We're great. Let's do it again. You look great. Sully looks great. Everybody looks so good. Thanks. I'm happy to be amongst you people. Always. I must be doing something right. Amen. We're talking about the fifth wheel. We just finished our big three trilogy.

We ended off with Kevin getting in a DUI, not an accident, but pulled over by the police. - And handcuffed. - Handcuffed with my daughter. - His niece. - Tess, his niece, in the backseat of the car, right? - Yeah. - So we come to this episode and what's the first thing that we see?

They're in the past, in the background, in the past, I should say. Playing a little Monopoly. I like that though, calling, since we work in the industry, calling our past the background. It is part of our background. I'll stick with the past storyline. The background actors in my story. Totally. I am main character energy. That's right. That's right. Number one on my call sheet. I cross out all the numbers and re-figure them on my sheet. Randall's getting glasses.

He's concerned about his little Urkel jokes that could be coming. Rebecca and Kate, you can see there's this small thing of just trying to get her to eat as healthily as possible. - Yeah. - Right? You know, "Hey baby, let me give you an apple instead of whatever it was that you were about to ask for."

Dad comes in, he's got great news. He's like, "A friend of mine's got this cabin up in the Poconos." He's like, "He's gonna give it to us for time being. We'll pick up Kevin after we're there because he's at football camp and we're gonna go have a great time." And we realized that they were talking about the Pearsons. - The famous cabin. Did you guys have a parent, one or the other, who would do stuff like this without talking to the other parent? Not that it was not bad stuff, but it was like, "Oh, so that's just what's happening?"

I did not, did you? My dad would bring home strays. Really? He would bring home dogs and cats. Are you serious? Without asking your mom. And just be like, hey, this cat. I have an aunt like that. Yeah, my dad's a sweetie for the animals. So my aunt would do that with animals. Yeah. Just a quick sidebar. She would do that with animals and she'd do it with people too. She was a foster mother, right? Yeah.

But she was also at that time in her life, and she's spoken about this, was dealing with substance abuse issues. So every once in a while, like she'd have a foster child, but she also was dealing with her addiction. She's like, hey, Arlene, would you watch the baby for me for a little bit? I got to go take care of some business and was gone for a week. Yikes. And my mother called the social worker and said, this baby is with me.

And that baby is my little brother, Robert. Stop. And then the birth mother got pregnant again and the social worker contacted my mom and said, would you like to take these two children? Because the birth mother had twins.

And one of those twins is my little sister. The other one had SIDS, passed away. But I'm saying this to say that the reason why I have a little brother and a little sister is because I have an aunt who's similar to your father, but the next level. Very next level. I don't even know if levels can be talked about in this situation. The next level. This is my aunt, and I love her. Amazing. She's been clean for decades now, right? And she's doing exceptionally well. But that's how I wound up with a little brother and a little sister. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

How has that story waited until the 36th episode? This is the first time I've thought to bring it up. What you said to think about your dad? I love getting to know you. I'll just say that. I love getting to know you guys too. Yeah, the onion. There you go. Just peeling away the layers. Layer after layer. Okay, so where were we? First trip to the cabin. Jump up to Katobi. And it is the first time that you...

This is the introduction of Kotobi. Look at him. Aw. It's so dumb. Oh, your glasses are all fogged up. Guys on YouTube, Sully is purposely fogging up his glasses by sticking his glasses into the cup of the coffee like this and then cover it up. One of my favorite storylines...

The point is, guys, check us out on YouTube. That's the point. Check us out on YouTube. But it is the first time that we hear the term Katobi. Because I think it had been termed online first. Yes. And then I think the writers were like, that's not bad. Did they take it from? They must have. I think so.

I wonder how often that happens in TV history where the audience gets to, I mean, that's a big, that's a big effect. It is a big effect. It is. And I love your enthusiasm. Is that what we are now? Is that what we're doing? Because if that's what we're doing. I love a good couple name. I love a good one, right? Packing snacks for the plane, getting everything ready. Can we do our couple name? What's your couple name then? So it would be- Mailer. Mailer. Maybe, I don't know. Mailer. Tandy. Tandy. Tandy. Jessica Tandy. Tandy. And it would be-

It doesn't work. Sterling? I kind of like Staffay. That's good. Staffay. Staffay is really good. What's yours? I mean, what? Rachel. I mean, Crachel? Crachel. Crachel. Rully. Crachel's good. Crachel. Crachel sounds like a snack. Crachel sounds like a really good donut. Or a type of cereal. You get this, Crachel? Or like a really healthy cereal on the other. Like, ugh. Crachel. Crachel.

Why do you keep buying this? Got some almond milk for your crachel.

I gotta keep going. - Go, you keep going and I'll keep going. - Okay. So she's saying how she hasn't talked to Kevin in over a month. - 'Cause he's been in rehab. - And you're saying that's how rehab goes, et cetera, et cetera. And so we realize now that he has been for a month in rehab, right? Packing snacks to go visit him on the plane. We're all gonna go see him, see how he's doing because I think he's supposed to be getting out, right? As they're leaving,

Toby is taking out the trash. She's asking to take out the trash. It smells like booty hole. He picks up the trash, the trash bag rips and turns out- - Did she say booty hole? - No, she didn't say booty hole. I was like, that's what I remember in my head. - His interpretation. - Got it. - That was my interpretation. - I don't think you say that on NBC. - Anyway, it was- - The bag rips open and there's a ton of junk.

Yeah, there's like a KFC bucket and a couple of other things. And you see Tobe sort of like, "Hmm, do I confront or do I sort of leave it alone for the time being?" He decides to- Now's not the time. Now's not the time. He leaves it alone, right? Randall and Beth check on Tess because since she's been in the backseat of a car with someone who is under the influence, they just want to make sure

that she's in a good place. They don't know why she tried to leave in the first place. Obviously dealing with not having Deja in the house and feeling sad about it. But she says, I'm fine. I'm sorry. I know it wasn't the smartest thing to do. You don't have to worry about me anymore. Okay.

Family sees each other for the first time at the rehab center. I get a chance to hug my sister. Kate's wondering, hey, guys, you don't know how he's going to look. It may be terrible. And he's never looked better. Never looked better. Mr. Hollywood just strolls out. Infuriating. Crushing rehab. Living the life. Charming people. Kate Burton, who...

the amazing actress that she is joins us as Barbara the therapist and she says immediately that like you know it might be easier if we do this just with the immediate family so just your mom and your brother and sister and before anybody can really get a word in edgewise Beth is like yo I never wanted to be here in the

first she's like go let's get out of here as fast as we possibly can this was an instant regret of mine as this scene was unfolding i wish i wish i had played toby more disappointed that he didn't get to be part of the healing sure because she was so excited to not be and right actually so was miguel yeah yeah no could have been point count point and i really missed an opportunity there and i apologize to the viewers

- I think they forgive you. 'Cause she was like, she was hysterical. What are we on Lost? 'Cause they referred to- - The others. - The others. - The others. - Yeah. - And you coined yourselves- - The new big three. - The new big three. Which I think was pretty cool. - Yeah, people loved that. So you're welcome for that. - You hit that one out of the park.

So let's go back to the cabin. And it seems like every reference that Kate is sort of going through with regards to why she likes the cabin has to do with food. We make s'mores over here and dad goes to this ice cream place and dah, dah, dah. And so Rebecca's sort of clocking it, trying to find like, what's the right way to go about this thing. They had a little pow-pow Jack and Rebecca. I was like, I'll try to get her to exercise more and do some things, et cetera.

next thing you see we're trying to like make her play football we're outside the ball it's it's kevin and uh jack and randall and mom are reading yeah they're playing football yeah randall and rebecca sitting next to each other just just having the best time reading in a good old book right and you see kate like hey man why are we going right back to your brother and mckinsey's like why am i doing

And it's like, I don't even like this game. - Yeah, I don't like football. - It's so awkward. - Right? And so then he, this is, okay. So I want to pause for a second on this particular storyline, because this is an interesting thing that I heard in the writer's room a couple of times in terms of how do you best love your plus size family member?

And what I mean by that is, do you feel like you have to bring it up? Do you have to talk about it? Like, do you encourage it? Or do you say like, no, she already knows, they already know what they're going through, et cetera, is the most loving thing to be silent. And I ask that sometimes because I would go home into the world and they would be like, my question, people would ask me, is she well, right? Is she healthy?

Meaning Chrissy. And I was like, she's as healthy as I know she can be. Right? And that's the answer that I gave to all those things. But I'm curious in terms of like this storyline in particular, as you see these two parents wrestle with how best do they help their daughter, right, to be the healthiest version of herself. Do you guys have any input experience with this conversation at all? I have no experience with it. Do you guys? No. I mean, I'm still...

working on it for myself. I do know that Rach and I, there's a new experience being new parents of finding what works and continuing to do

What works even after it stopped working? Hmm. Okay. Does that make sense to either of you like like you get into a really me? Okay good So this is what you like to eat. Uh-huh good and then also with the kids and you're like wait I fed this child noodles with butter on it For 12 days in a row. I hear you we got it. It's not working You know, what do you mean? You don't like noodles with butter, right? Like my brain

gets into like a bit of a survival mode and forgets to like adjust, forgets to adapt. To be malleable, yeah. And so we've recently had to like, because it's a fun thing, Bear comes home from school, he and Aoife get a little popsicle and they sit on the front steps and eat their popsicles together. And it's the cutest thing ever. It's adorable. And we love it. And it turns them into nightmare demons. Okay. Because of the sugar? Yes. Sugar, sugar, sugar. They go crazy.

And it's like, and every time we do it. Like, why did we do this? Every time they're doing the craziness, I'm like, you know what? Maybe we're just going to have to stop having popsicles after school. And Rachel's like, you know, you say that every day. And we finally had to like make the shift of like,

Okay, clearly this is too much for your brain at this stage of the day or development or whatever it is. And so, you know, obviously they are not autonomous. They don't decide what they eat. They get given things. So I don't know beyond that, like how, I don't know how that goes once kids start growing.

Once you get older. Going out into the world. Because Lord knows I was going out into the world as a young kid. Yeah. I told you, I think we've already talked about it on this podcast, about my soda addiction. No. So before anything else, sugar was my thing. And I would pursue it like a junkie. Yeah. In secret. Sugar's addictive. I would gamble for quarters at school.

Just little like games with quarters where it's like I flip my quarter and you flip your quarter. And if you match mine, you take mine. And if you don't match mine, I take yours. Okay. Just take a pocket of quarters of that soda machine. And by the time I got to college, I was drinking 100 ounces of soda a day. Oh, sorry. 100? 100. 32 ounce cup at the cafeteria. Yeah. Three times. At least three of those a day. God. Now, mind you, I was...

six four tennis player 190 pounds i was burning yeah calories sure like yeah like it was i needed that much sugar just to stay awake right for the amount of calories i was burning but i i don't know i don't know how you i don't know how you like in these storylines with her it's like i know what are you gonna do that's my what are you gonna do i understand both perspectives both parents absolutely yeah and rebecca

only comes at it from love. It's a place of love. And that's the important thing to put in it. Not a place of judgment and sort of body shaming or anything like that. It's like, I want my child to be the healthiest version of herself. And I want to sort of break that apart from diet culture, which has a preeminent emphasis on thinness as the sort of

- Standard. - Result of healthiness. And it's not always like, I think Madison being a part of the show and what we deal with later sort of exemplifies that perfectly. But just like, I want you to be healthy. And I know that like eating certain things all the time is not gonna lead to the healthiest outcome. - Sure, sure. - Right? Okay. - And this like obsession with food. She seems to be obsessed. Like you said, all of her memories of the cabin and why she likes it is the popcorn and the s'mores. And it's like, ugh, we need to maybe,

separate that from the experience. But this is also what we get into in this episode. I don't know if we want to jump that far into the family therapy session about what gets discussed, but it's like there's a difference between, you know, like the nutritionist that we see has this one bite rule. Hey, you have one bite of whatever you want. Yeah.

You have a craving, taste it. Great, leave it alone. And that's fine for some people. But some people can't pick up. Once you pop. Yeah, once you pop, you can't stop. That goes for sugar, that goes for alcohol. It's like saying to an alcoholic, just have a sip.

Right. And then leave it alone. Right. You know, and anybody who drinks a lot would say, what do you mean you have a beer and you go to bed? Right. That doesn't make any sense. Yeah. They come in packs of six. For a reason. Come on now. You know what I mean? I do. And so this is then the discussion about especially and why childhood obesity is such a delicate topic because we attach the things that we consume.

whether it's food or whatever it is to change our physical being. And it gets attached to our emotional state, or it can get imprinted, it can get encoded. And we start to go to those things to-- They start out as survival mechanisms, then they turn into coping mechanisms, and then before you've realized it, it's just a part of your personality, and you can't untangle them. - Yeah. - Yeah.

We'll be right back with more That Was Us. I remember one year we all went down south. I think we were in Atlanta and we found this beautiful home and big family. We had about 16 of us all in this house and it had four stories and we were able to split it amongst ourselves and the family got a chance to be together. Little cousins playing with each other all under the same roof, ping pong table, foosball table, pool table. It was absolutely perfect.

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Let me do this little part because I think it's going to lead naturally into this therapy session, right? Because she's like, why are we doing this? And she's like, you've been eating a lot of sweets since you've been here. And we just feel like, you know, you should try to move your body a little bit more. And I guess Mackenzie's face just falls. Like you see it instantaneously. Like I thought you were on my side. And you're like everybody else. That we go to do this thing, right? And then she just says, I won't eat more sweets. I just don't want to play.

And she leaves, right? And not to assume what someone else is going through, but to be attached to a storyline that is based on your appearance. Yeah. It's like, regardless of whether or not this is an imaginary character, you're still a person who's like having to be put in this position. -Yeah. -And that's rough. -Amen. -That's rough. Amen. Amen.

The next thing that happens in that scene is Kev is left on the football field by himself as Jack runs after Kate and as Rebecca and Randall are just sitting there reading their book, he just takes the football and chucks it out. - And throws it at him. - Right? And Rebecca sort of lays in like, bro, what's your problem? Like quit being, and I gotta give like the,

These younger versions of Kevin's both Parker and Logan like when it's time for them to be douchey. Yeah I like in that moment, I mean granted my little guys are still pretty little but yeah I have an almost four-year-old in a two-year-old and sometimes yeah Gus just goes and like pushes his brother down or clocks him in the head with a toy and I'm like, I

"Dude, why did you do that?" And at four, he doesn't know why he did it still. - At 13, he may not either because he still does crazy stuff. - 'Cause as I'm watching Rebecca say that, I was like, "Ooh, I saw Mandy there." I saw Mandy. She didn't know this is how she was gonna feel four years from now. - Okay, then we fast, we go to the present and we go to this therapy session, right?

And Mandy and I were recollecting, like, this was one of the longest scenes that we remember shooting. Yeah, it was like eight pages. I mean, a lot of people. A lot of people, like eight pages, whatnot. Or maybe longer. It may have been longer. And they'd run it as a one-er, and we would just do...

-Three or four. -This is Chris Koch, right? -Directing? -Yes. Yes. Love Koch. And then we go into coverage, right? And I can remember watching this scene. It starts off in a very polite way. Go for it. In my estimation of the format, he does his best to go around the room and he kind of gives a half-hearted...

Yeah. That is meant to be part of his amends process. Sure. It was like placating everybody. Yeah. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And it was real like, yeah, sorry about that. Again, I'm sorry. And also, I'm sorry. And then he turns to his therapist like, that felt good. That felt good. And he's like, what?

We haven't scratched the surface. Not even close. It's funny, too, because Beth and Randall have a conversation earlier where he admits to how upset he is with the situation, especially with his daughter in the backseat of the car and whatnot. And Beth is, too. But he tells Beth, like, look, when I was at my lowest point, this dude showed up.

And it's our turn to show up for him." And she's like, "All right." And I say, "If ever it gets to a place where like, I don't know what I have to say and say, I'll just take a deep breath and I'll say, 'We're here for you, Kev.'" Right? And so you see Randall- - Immediately goes there. - "We're here for you, Kev." - Immediately. - Yeah. - Doesn't have to wait too long. - You don't have to wait long at all. - Kicked off. - It's such a wonderful contrast between Chrissy and myself and Kate and Randall.

But like, she's just like, oh, Kev, like, I'm so sorry that like, I didn't see it coming. And I just wanted to be here for you, et cetera, et cetera. And Randall, the whole, like the whole time is like, yeah.

I don't have anything to be sorry about. Yeah, Kate is on the verge of tears. She's on the verge of tears and Randall's like, "I just, can I leave? 'Cause I don't want to be here to begin with." Right? So then once he really starts to deal with things and he starts to talk about his childhood and how he always kind of felt like a fifth wheel. He said, "Kate, you had dad, Randall, you had mom." And I always sort of felt left to my own devices, right?

And then we chime in a little bit. He says something about, like, I'm an addict, right? Dad was an addict, and it's something that we don't really talk about that much. And Kate, I know how hard you struggle with food, and I know you be working real, real hard, but I think that you're an addict too, right? We are a family of addicts. Yeah, we are a family of addicts. And Kate has this moment of like, why are you doing this?

And he starts, Kevin starts responding. He's like, no, no, not you. This woman over here. Yeah, of course. Don't blame the brother. Why are you picking scabs and trying to make things worse than what they are? And it's an interesting sort of moment because it reminds me, I have this conversation with you all the time. Introspection is,

is not comfortable and it's not like second nature for most of us. You know what I'm saying? I feel like because we do this profession, we tend to do it a little bit more than the average Joe, but still it's not comfortable. 'Cause I've had people tell me straight up, "Why would I want to bring up the past?"

leave that shit where it is and keep it moving. You know what I'm saying? - That's my background. - You know, that's most people. You know what I'm saying? Because it takes work to have to pick it up, look at it, examine it to make it truly dissipate. - It's the great American tragedy. I mean, it's every play about the American family that's ever been written. It's like, and today's the day.

that the family deals with 30 years of things they haven't talked about. Yeah. The trauma. I thought you meant just like America itself in terms of admitting its own past and sort of coming to terms with it. Oh, oh, oh. Oh, Zach. 100%. Just that. 100%. Yeah. That does not necessarily free that from informing the way that we live our lives. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So...

They delve into it, and then he starts talking about mom. And what does he say about you that Randall's just like, pause, bro? You know, she's sort of like, Rebecca chimes in and is like, you know, the therapist asks her why did she ever really have this conversation with her children about his addiction. And she's like, why would I...

- Spoil. - Yeah. - Like why would I talk about the one thing that made my husband not perfect? - Yeah, right. - Why would I spoil their memories? They had 17 years with him.

He's never gonna be at Kate's wedding. He's not gonna ever meet Randall's children. And then she goes in on Rebecca for using two examples that don't involve Kevin. - Right. - Yeah. - My favorite part about the end of that thing, Mandy, is you say, "And you really do my husband a disservice by calling him an addict because he was so much more than that." Favorite part is. - Thank you. - Thank you.

- I watched that too and I was like, I think I just added that. - I think you did, but I was like-- - Because it was sort of like, and that's all I have to say about that. - And I've concluded my statement. - It was like you were at a Senate hearing. - Yes, thank you. - Brilliant. - Well, it's like, I think she was so put on the defense. - Sure, sure. - I just remember filming that scene and feeling that, but coming in so uncomfortable, it's so loaded, you could have cut the tension with a knife. - Yeah, yeah.

I think the way we approached filming that scene too was we did the whole thing in one long take from whatever angle, whatever coverage they were getting. And it was like we didn't want to do it too much. We didn't want to rehearse it too much or talk about it too much. So it felt like this precious thing in the sense that it was alive and we were letting it kind of live and bubble up at certain points. And yeah, I remember feeling this just...

innate heaviness of what we were there for, not knowing ultimately like where it was going to go, but just how sad it was. I don't think it was lost on Rebecca. Like,

Yes, Jack had a drinking problem, and I'm not sure she ever wanted to admit that there might be a correlation between what Kevin was going through. But man, when Randall lays into him, like, you're not an addict. If you're addicted to anything, it's attention. I was like, woof. I was like, what's going on, man? No more Ron Howard, no more Sly Stallone, and now Q...

Q addiction, right? You know, it was, it was, it was uncomfortable to watch.

Yeah. And it's interesting because they have these moments. And the big Kevin Randall thing happens late season five, four, something like that. The front yard. Yeah, the front yard. Well, I had people just jumping forward to that. They were like, you remember like the Jack and Rebecca scene in season one? Yeah, the fight. I had people tell me, I was like, that was worse. They were like, because they were like,

- That was thought about? - Yeah, it was premeditated. - That was like, nobody was drunk. Nobody was like, you know, wasn't late at night. It was broad. - Yeah. - Someone had to drive somewhere. - So anyway, that happens in that therapy session and it's just explodes all over the place. - And then Rebecca explodes. You know, she's sort of like pushed to the brink.

And it's like, you know. Well, he pushes you. He says, just admit it, Mom. You like Randall the best. Yeah. Right? Because you should like, what are you talking about? I love all my children the same. Oh, you can't be honest? You can't just say it or whatnot? And then you said, it's not that I like him or whatever. He was just...

Yeah. Right? Yeah. He didn't abandon me immediately after his father died, right? And the air in the room, the wind is just like... Even Randall, even Brian was like, damn. Yeah. Like, it was...

"Okay, we're gonna sit in that for a little bit." - Yeah, that's 20 years that have just been festering inside. - Yeah. - Truths, right? Truths that need to be-- - Aired. - Exorcised. - Yeah. - Especially when they're that deep for that long. - Yeah. - And that's the power, and honestly, as messy and maybe inappropriate, maybe inaccurate,

The benefit of therapy and this situation that they're in is you need context to talk about this stuff? Here's your context. Yeah. Therapy. Yeah. You know what I mean? Absolutely. The idea of like, when was I going to talk to my kids about him being an alcoholic? Right. At what point? When do you do that? Sure. Like what do you...

which is such an interesting correlation. - They lost their father. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And what, two weeks after he dies? No, by the way, let's not forget, he had a drinking problem. You know what I mean? - Totally. - Like there's never, there's quote unquote, "Never a good time." - Yeah, never can be. - And that's, it's an interesting correlation with our show.

that gives people who watch it, as we have talked about with our friends, the context to talk about these things. - Yeah. - Just by watching the show. - Absolutely. - Because there will come a day where I'll have to talk to Baran Ifa about my difficulty with drinking. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? Just so you know, this has been in my past, or this has been, I've had problems with this, so maybe you should

kind of look out for that. But who knows when or how. - But you're saying like, but if they watch episode number one of, you know, "This Is Us." - Yeah, that's right. - You're like, you know what? It's interesting because dad- - That's interesting. Dad also went through a similar situation. - You know what I'm saying? - In 2016. - Let's go to a slightly lighter field. Let's go to the new big three.

And how was it for you guys, for you and Sue and John, just sort of like getting the chance to kick it? It was a glorious day. Of course it was. It felt glorious. It was a glorious day. The three of us, you know. Obviously, the three of us didn't hold similar resentments that the characters might hold. But it was a fun day to be like, scenes for us? Scenes for the three of us?

And we had a good time in that bar. Yeah, you did. For that day, that afternoon. It looked awesome. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. But it's funny, too, because you and Beth, or Toby and Beth, I should say, are sort of talking about this, the no-Pearson-fly zone, right? And how, like, the Pearsons can talk to each other about what have you. And I don't know if you guys have, you have siblings. I can say whatever I want to about my brother and sister.

If somebody else has something to say about my brother and sister, I'd be like, uh. And it took, in the beginning of my marriage, it was a thing where like my wife would say something. I'd be like,

What? Oh, you real familiar. But I was like, oh, I share a bed with you. Yeah. It should be us, right? We're on the same team. It took a minute. There is the thing of like, you start to get familiar and maybe Rachel says something and I start to like come in. I'm like, oh, it's just you venting? Okay, you just vent. You just go. You go ahead.

This is on you. - But that's what I think what they're talking about a little bit to the no fly zone, because you know, you can't really mess with Kevin if Kate has anything to do with it, whatnot. And then the real no fly zone is, man, look at that water. - Sorry, it's a big one. - YouTube, y'all just gotta see. - Get on YouTube. - Listen. - It's a breastfeeding mom. - I have a child to feed. - It's a breastfeeding mom. You better get your water, girl. - Look at this, putting my scrawny little thermos. - To shame.

There is this no-fly zone. And you say, especially if you bring up Jack, don't ever talk about Jack. That's just the cardinal rule number one. What did I write here? What did you write? That Jack is the saint we'll never know or live up to. Right. That's how he's described. That's the pedestal that he is. But then I love, they're all revealing their truths, right? And Miguel comes out with, I married my best friend's wife. And it was like,

Record scratch? Sue had like, she was in, I think it was in the middle of throwing a dart and her head just went, and then, Sully, I can't remember what you did. But you're like, are we going there? It's being talked about. We're doing it. I feel like it was like collectively America was like, oh, finally. Thank you. They got a chance to be the audience. Yes. You know what I'm saying? Those two for that moment with Miguel. Yes. And he's like, you know, because they were talking about being an outsider and they're

- Not in the inner circle. - Yeah. - Yes. - Right? Like that's just reserved for the inner circle. - And he's like, I'm the ultimate outsider. - Right. I've been outside of this thing the whole time. And that's okay. You know what I mean? Like the level of peace that Miguel has with who he is and how he feels. - He's the Jedi. - Is really amazing. - Yeah, and the fact that he's like, they lived through something we will never understand. - Bam. - It's the four of them. - Bam. - And we will always be on the outside because of that. - Yeah.

Because he also says it at one point in the way that, like, I think maybe you saw it too. You see a little bit of John Horst. He goes, now you're entering my no flex zone. And it was like just that kind of like that...

slightly overly dramatic character that he likes to play. Because he's talking about my best friend. You know what I mean? It's so good. It makes me miss John. I love that guy. It's really good. But I did love that moment for the audience and you guys' reactions to him dropping that bomb. It was like everything went quiet for a second. Because my best friend from St. Louis is like, Carol,

I don't think I can like Miguel. I was like, I'm telling you, man, he's a really good dude. He got with his best friend's wife, man. Like, how are you going to do that? And I was like, yeah, but there's a whole, he's like, no, man. I think by the end, he came around, but it took a minute. Because America at that time that they said that, like everybody, you got that sense that they were like, can we talk about this? Yeah. So no one's talking about this.

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So then we go, we catch back up with the big three again. Therapy session is over. Kev is sitting out on a bench overlooking the lake just trying to, you know, collect his thoughts. His sister comes and sits next to him and there's an apology, you know, that nobody wants to hurt anybody. And those two...

There's never real, like, super friction between Kev and Kate. No. Honestly, there's not. The friction comes with your boy. Yep. The bros. With the bros. And I wind up sitting down and joining them, too. And I was telling them, I was like, you know what would have been really cool? Is if somebody had just sort of videotaped our entire childhood.

And then that way, if one of us had a dispute about what actually went down or not, we could just go back to the videotape and we could see it for ourselves. Objectively. Objectively. Because right now, we only have our perspective of how the childhood went down. Because in a therapy session said, I was there for your childhood, bro. It didn't seem that bad to me. And he says, but because of that, because I see your childhood differently, doesn't

discount the way that you experienced it. And he winds up telling him like, "Look, man, I wanted to be here for you today because you were there for me at my lowest point. And today I did a bad job. I was a bad brother and I'm sorry." And I really appreciated him saying it. - Same. I wrote that down. I was like, it seems insurmountable sometimes.

that is how you apologize. Like, that is how you take accountability. I was like, "Ugh, I love that that is being modeled to all of us." 'Cause it was a revelation. I'm sure I felt that way when I saw it initially, but whatever's going on in my life right now or wherever, I was just like, "Wow, that is how you do that." - You know what it is? I feel like, I think we're all capable of it. I feel like ego sort of like gets in the way. And again, I've had this thought in my head and I said this on the podcast.

they should apologize first. - Yeah. - Right. - Yeah. - Right. It's ego and resentment. - Yeah. - Yeah. And it gets in the way of amending anything. Yes. And the only thing that we can control, like we were talking about, is our perspective. - Right. - You keep your side of the street clean. - Amen. - And you don't worry about the other side of the street. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it fascinating? I mean, we all have siblings, and it's just like-- it made me think about that. Like, we share this, like,

really like indelible thing, this experience that no one else understands but those who lived it. And that's the really remarkable thing about having a sibling. And to have had wildly different experiences. And maybe it's not something that is even

you know, remarked on until you get older. That's right. Perspective. Like you can't really understand what it is that you've gone through until you've got like 60,000 square foot view. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our therapist told us several times, she's like, every child enters a completely different family.

You know what I mean? God, that's true. Like your first child enters with just these two parents. And then two, three, however many. It's a complete, as similar as it appears, it is a completely unique and different situation. Wow. Which is why this situation is so...

specifically interesting, right? Because you have a set of twins and this third baby who all arrive at the same time. So you would just assume that their perspectives, that they're all witnessing the same things. They're all benefiting from the same things. They're all being injured in the same way. And it's just not the case. Couldn't be more different. I want to stick with the present for a second because that storyline with

Kate and with Katobe, you wound up admitting to the new big three that you saw that your wife had been, you know, eating junk food and sort of hiding it from you because you're just talking about being on the outside and what you can't, have you got, what is it that you say? Like, have you guys ever had something where, you know, you're supposed to know about or not supposed to know about it, but you wind up saying something about it?

Anyway, when we leave the therapy thing, it's an interesting thing because you're about to broach the subject with her. And she asks if she can say something first. And she says, since I lost the baby, I've been eating junk food because it makes me feel good. But keeping things from you makes me feel really bad. And I don't want to keep anything from you anymore. And it's sort of that connective thing to dad taking you for ice cream. You guys...

After preschool, I can remember this, like at age four, I would go to Dunkin' Donuts with my dad. He'd get a dozen donuts. Sterling Brown ate a dozen donuts.

And that fills me with joy. So then you get older and you start eating a dozen donuts, thinking that you're going to get that same sort of feeling. You're like, oh man, I shouldn't, but I'm still doing it. And then at a certain point, you're like, you have to make a decision. Like, oh, this doesn't feel good anymore. So maybe I should make a different choice. You know what I'm saying? It's so interesting. It's what we were talking about at the beginning of this episode. The joy is...

The time with your father. Yeah. Yes. Not what you guys. But it gets hardwired. Yeah, man. To the thing. The association. That you're associating. Right. Because I had the same every day, every day on the way to school. Yeah. Stop at the coffee shop, two donuts and chocolate milk. Okay. You know. Yeah. While my dad had a coffee and I played some video games. And it was like, and, and, and, and yeah, the, I, I mistook.

you know, sometimes you mistake the serotonin for the sugar rush. Yeah, yeah. The ritual. The ritual, yeah. Well said, well said. I love that this episode ends too with, you know, 'cause it sort of-- - Yes. - Piggybacks on--

Young Kevin feeling like an outsider, right? He has always felt like the fifth wheel. It's something he admits in therapy. He says in therapy, okay, mom, name something that's just us. Not the whole family, not the three of us plus you, but like just you and me. And she's flustered being put on the spot. It's like racking her brain trying to figure out a memory. Yeah. And she can't. Right. So the episode ends with her going to Kevin's room.

And she's waiting in there for him. And, you know, she admits, she's like, I never had to worry. We never had to worry about you. When we drop you off at kindergarten. Yeah. Like your sister was clinging to me, was crying. Like Randall, I forget what Randall was doing, but. Something similar. Yeah, sure. And you just sort of like purposefully, like just strided into school, didn't look back. And.

Your father and I were like, look at our brave boy, like, just doesn't need us, basically. And that just kind of typified exactly who he was throughout his whole life. Like, we never had to worry about you. You seemingly had it all together. Yeah. And so I apologize if, you know, I didn't sort of see what lied underneath. Maybe we should have. Yeah. So in the past, there's this thing where Randall loses his glasses.

and he had just got them. - Rebecca blames. - Rebecca's like, "Kevin, did you take Randall's glasses? 'Cause if you did, that's really dumb. He needs his glasses, you know that." He's like, "I didn't take them." You're like, "Okay." You say, "Okay," but you still kind of feel like maybe he wound up taking them. - Yeah. - Later on that night,

I don't know if there's a storm going on outside. Yeah, there's a storm going on outside. And Kate and Randall are both not in the room. Kate and Randall are out of the room. He wakes up alone. He wakes up and he sees Randall's glasses like underneath the bed. He goes to grab the glasses. His brother and sister aren't there. Goes into the parents' room and sees that his brother and sister are in the bed with his parents. And he's like...

Figures. I guess this is just my life. So my man grabs a blanket, he makes a pallet for himself on the floor, puts the pillow down, et cetera. And as that's happening in the present, he's saying like, "Listen, man, I know we had to have something together. I may not be able to think of it right now, but I'd like to think that we did." And he's like, "Yeah, maybe, maybe we did. I'd like to think so too." And you see Rebecca wake up.

And sees her baby boy on the floor. And she's like, well, I ain't going to let him lay on the floor by himself. And she goes and lays next to him. And then we go lay next to him, put my arm around him, and they just go to sleep. And that's when Brown cries. That's when I cry too. Because she goes, I know we had moments. I feel it in my bones. And...

And Justin's like, I think we did. I hope we did. Yeah. And that's how he ends it. Like, I think we did. Maybe we did. I hope we did. And I'm just like, as a parent, I'm crushed. Like, oh God, I don't want that to ever happen. Sure. Sure.

Oh, man. But then just like seeing her like lay on the floor, I'm like, why can't you remember that? Why can't you tell them that? Remember during the storm at the cabin? Because you can't pull. Like, that's what makes it even better. Of course. Of course. Yes. Because it's like, you don't remember every single moment. No. These tiny little moments. I mean, it's like this conversation we had earlier today and

in an episode with Isaac and Elizabeth, it's like those little tiny fragments of our lives that like are written into the show that we don't remember necessarily. But it's like when you start to like dig in, you find those little, those little tiny hidden gems of what make up a life, what comprise a life. And the process that he's going through, the thing that gets in the way of us appreciating those things or appreciating

The thing that gets in the way of me appreciating those things and remembering those things is identifying too closely with my resentment and my anger for the things I didn't get, for the way I wasn't treated. And the more I lean towards a clear mind, a clear heart, a focus on gratitude and things like that,

all of these things flood back. It's like, "Oh, right. Oh, right." All of this story I've been telling myself about it, "I've been wronged," or "I've been mistreated," is not all that true. Right. The perspective that I thought was mine has actually been distorted by lack of gratitude. Wow. And you can see Kevin setting out on that path. Yeah. And that was when he said,

I hope we did. He knows that you're...

that you did. He just can't remember it. - Yeah. - I was about to say, like in this moment, I was just, I was sitting here and I was like, "What about when she took you to get that dang baseball card, boy?" Like, don't you remember? - Yeah. You'll see in future episodes. - It's like plaque on the brain. He just can't get past all the hurt. - Yeah. - The resentment. - Yeah. - The ego. - It was a beautiful episode. - It really was. - It really was. - I remember shooting it. I remember shooting that therapy scene, how heavy,

it was, but like how also the show always gave us like, we all got to like get such good stuff. Like I, maybe like let me speak for myself, but like I was always just so, it was the perfect time.

What was I'm trying to say guys? It was the name of the show I feel was reflective in how everyone got to be reflected in the show. Yeah. Like you could have taken all the numbers on the call sheet and added them together and divided them by seven. And that's what it felt like. Like it felt like we were doing this together.

thing together and everybody had the highest level of support because we just wanted to make the best show possible. Right? - Yeah. - And like, when I'm watching like the new big three, I'm like, they killing it. And we're in this therapy thing, it's like, we all get to kill it. Like everybody gets to eat. - It was always a good day at work. - Always a good day at work, man.

Which makes it seem not real. Yeah, like, did that really happen? That couldn't have happened. And a very silly side note, this was the earliest call time for me. Where was it? In Prosthetic Makeup, 2.30. All right, all right. Yeah. A new record. Because it was like this time of year. It was like wintertime, so we had shorter days. Yes. Did you have to go up there to get your makeup done? Yeah, I had to go to Malibu where we shot this.

I remember my- Did they put you up at Casamigos the night before? No, no, no. So my in-law at the time lived in Malibu. Yes. My husband's from there. And so we stayed at their house. Oh, okay. And then I drove to work because I was like, this is going to be an hour and a half to get to work otherwise. Oh, gosh. Yeah, 2.30 in the morning to put the prosthetics on.

So John must have had a similar, well, no, no, no. Cause it was just me in that therapy seat. It was just you in the therapy seat. I remember you telling me this call time. And I remember saying to Sterling Brown, said Sterling Brown, you will never complain about a call time. Oh gosh, no. I wasn't complaining either. I just remember thinking. I was like, I have no right. I was like, this is early. Is this how it's always going to be? Cause we were still like early-ish days where I was like, wow. 2.30 is...

Yikes. We're going to go to the fan segment. We're going to the fan segment. That was a great talk. Everybody will be right back with more That Was Us. That Was Us.

Gang. Yes, that's me. We're back. Can I just say we love our fans. We do. We love hearing from you and we love our fans. Yes. We love hearing from them. And all the voicemails and messages that we've received, including more burning fan questions. Our first Q&A with the fans went so well that we found some more. Round two. And.

And we're here to answer them all. Let's do it. Let's do this thing. I'll do the first one. Okay. So this is from Jill. Oh, it's for me. Jill, my question is for Mr. Brown. Randall's glasses were such an interesting part of his character. Did they help you get into character when you put them on? That's interesting. Jill, I, from...

14, was I in high school? Yeah, 14 to 30, I wore glasses. - Really? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not terrible eyesight, but having a tough time with the chalkboard and all that type of stuff. Then at age 30, I found LASIK. And if you're a candidate for LASIK or whatnot,

It's a game changer. Wow. It's a game changer because now at age 48, I still don't need glasses. I kind of need them every once in a while at night with the glare coming off of like stuff. But it was for the past 18 years. First, you have 16 years of like doing this all the time. Yeah. And like if you go play pool or whatnot, you have to do this, play basketball and put stuff in your eyes. And then all of a sudden they're gone. So it's...

Putting the glasses on actually did help me get back in the character. Because you just kind of felt a little bit nerdier. Like Clark Kent. Like Clark Kent. I love that. There you go. What's next? Mary asks, for Mandy, I'm curious if becoming a mom has had you reflect on your character playing an amazing mom figure. If you were to play Rebecca now after being a mom in real life, is there anything you would have done differently? Interesting. Anything I would have done differently? It's so hard to...

To qualify what exactly that would be, I feel like I have more tools in the toolbox now. Sure. Like I have more real life experience and baggage that I would be able to bring to the character. Yeah. More understanding of her. So I'm sure that would shape and change things to a certain degree, but I don't know exactly how. Okay. Yeah.

There was one scene where our new baby had a dirty diaper and it was stinky and they made me carry the baby out in front of me. Like, oh, God, oh, my God. That was a real TV move. It was a real like, oh, look at this dad who can't handle a stinky diaper. That's not how it goes. But at the time, I was like, yeah, I guess this is what happens. And then you just realize how

disturbingly comfortable you become with poop. - Yeah. - Anecdote, the first time I got deuced on by my child, we were in the back seat of my wife's car. She had gone to go grocery shopping. I was like, he was asleep. He woke up, right? And it started streaming out.

in the diaper and whatnot. Oh yeah, blowout. And then you just kind of have this and I was like, I had no, we had used up all the stuff so I just had to hold him and then I was like, okay, it has begun. Fatherhood is real. This is real. Nothing else you can do. Who cares about poop? Exactly. Who cares about poop? There's our first merch. T-shirt. Who cares about poop? Who cares? That was poop. Go.

Just a brown shirt. Just like a dookie brown shirt. Camilla asks, best song, music? Personally, I love To Build a Home and can't listen to it without at least a tear. We were just talking about this. Interesting. We were just talking about this song. I think...

It's featured in several episodes. It is. But there's a big episode coming up. Yeah, episode 213. -213, it features it. -Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were just talking about-- Yeah, it's right before the Super Bowl. -Oh, right before the Super Bowl. -Yeah, it's like, "Oh, wow, things are starting to catch on fire." Yeah, sometimes that song pops into my head and even singing it to myself makes me emotional. Makes me tear up, yeah. I have to agree with you on that one. Here's a question from Myra.

Given that the show follows various timelines and generations, how did filming work? Did you film the bulk of scenes with certain characters for a period of time and then later with others?

Myra, that's interesting because when you watch a show, I think everybody is sort of deluded in the idea that you shoot sequentially and that it sort of happens. No, you shoot out a location. Yeah. Right? You try to knock out a location so you can knock out every scene that takes place in Jack and Rebecca's house or every scene that happens in Randall and Beth's house. And then you try to move on to the next location. So whether it's in the past or the present, it's usually the location that mandates the shooting schedule.

That's true. So from This Is Us Brazil, they want to know, do you think your character would have a different story if COVID were not in the world? I don't understand the question. They're saying, do you think like the storylines would have been different if we didn't have to address COVID in the show?

And I think that the overall arc of the story was already sort of cemented. And we tried to figure out as gracefully as possible-- - How to incorporate. - How to incorporate COVID into today. But the storylines were going to be what they were. - As far as I can remember from conversations at the time, 'cause I know some people didn't wanna see it. Some people didn't wanna see COVID on their TV 'cause they were living it in their lives. But the show was such a clear reflection of the audience

that it would have been more disruptive to just ignore it. Right. I agree. And people, there were a lot of people who did want to see that reflected back to them. Yeah. Yeah. People just sort of living their lives in the midst of living through a pandemic as we all were tasked with doing. I agree. This is a good one. You see this one by John? No. I know that many of you- Ah, John. I know that many of you directed episodes. How

How do you manage acting and directing at the same time? And how do you direct yourself? That's for you two, right there. I didn't have to direct myself. Oh, you didn't? No. Oh, you weren't in the episode? No, no. It was all Toby and Kate. That's right. You directed yourself? Yes. Okay. Talk to us. Did I? You may not have. I do remember. Well, I do remember. Okay. Sounds good. Where are you going with this, Chris? He was like, this is dark. Called myself into my trailer.

Fired you. And I was like, what are you? I took a long look in the mirror. Yeah. And I said, what are you doing? You do not embarrass us. Now I am going to go outside and then I'm going to come back in. And when I do, I want you to have these lines memorized. Travis Bickle Sullivan is over here trying to direct himself. I'm going to say.

Luckily, I don't think I had, I think I had one scene in my episode. So it wasn't a big, they kind of made sure that we didn't have to. Yeah. And he do like real heavy lifting. You weren't directing like a Rebecca episode. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Well, let's do, let's do one more. There's do somebody, this looks interesting. Quentin's question. Cause he has like. Tarantino. He has exclamation points.

Who wants to read it? Read it. Here's my question. Considering that Chris turned in a hilarious and unrecognizable performance as Taserface in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 and Sterling gave his powerful and emotional one as Prince N'Jobu in Black Panther, when will the lovely Amanda Lee Moore grace the Marvel Cinematic Universe with her presence? Yes!

- Hey! - Would Mandy be interested in a role in that universe? Sure. - Yes, and this is where we start our campaign. - Let's begin now. - Right here on this podcast. - Are you an Avenger woman? Are you an X-Men woman? Like what is your jam? - Nothing. - Are you a Fantastic Four? Engage. - Listen, we are not nerdy enough

I wish I was. I wish I knew more of the Marvel Universe. You know who you are. And then I would name that character and we'd start that campaign. But I bet our listeners know exactly who you should be. I know who she should be. If they get a chance to redo it or whatnot. I think Mandy could kill some Jean Grey. Absolutely. You know who Jean Grey is? No.

She's an X-Man. She's an X-Man. An X-Man. An X-Woman. Yeah. Aren't they doing another one? No, they're doing Fantastic Four. I'm sure they are. I'm sure they are. They're always doing something. They'll redo all of them eventually. And when they are, let them know. Mandy Moore. The hashtag is Marvel Mandy. Hashtag Marvel Mandy. So get on the interwebs, the WWWs. Go to Instagram.com. Yes. And get on there and start. Thank you for campaigning for me. I got you back.

Because it's about time. Look at this dress, too. Come on, man. It's hot. It's hot. Yeah. Listen, we're going to do one more question. This is a question from Annie. How on God's green earth did Randall and Beth not have a spare room in that giant house? My husband and I used to joke about it all the time while we were watching. And I chuckle every time I see William in Annie's room. I hope the three of you can unlock the great mystery. Now, listen. Sterling.

Apparently, you don't understand the layout of brownstones. Well, it wasn't a brownstone in the beginning. We moved to Philadelphia at the end of season two, beginning of season three. That's when you got the brownstone. But we had a big old house in New Jersey. That's right. I was picturing brownstone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is a very good question because we had to put Kevin in the basement. William was sleeping in one of the girls' rooms. I feel like that house...

Feels like a five to six bedroom joint. At least a four bedroom. And you're absolutely right. And it's only a three. Yeah. Yeah. You know what, listeners? You got us. You caught us. Fine. You happy? You got us.

We'll tell Dan Fogelman. Let's go back and redo the show. Everyone gets their own room. Let's sign off. Guys, thank you so much for watching this episode. Please don't forget to subscribe, rate, tell a friend. We are here for you, and we're enjoying being with each other, but we really do enjoy being with you and hearing from you. So if you have any questions, comments, thoughts, things that you want to share, you can hit us up on email at thatwassuspod at gmail.com or...

- Call us at 412-501-3028. That's our emotional support hotline. We love hearing from you guys. I love you. - This is the best time ever. We love you too. We'll see you on the next "That Was Us." - This is one of our favorite segments of the show. - Yeah, it is. - "The Retread," brought to you by Peloton. Find your push, find your power with Peloton. - What we talking about on this episode? - Oh my gosh, this was the therapy episode. - Poop ain't no thing.

- Who made nothing. - This is just a real quick one that we talked about. - This is real true. - Yeah. - You're not a real parent until you get deuced on, as far as I'm concerned. - That's right. - I also brought up the fact that this was the earliest call time. Not a big deal, but for me, when I watch this episode, I'm-- - You do keep saying it. - I wanna be pat on the back for this. - This was already AM. - I did it. - And not only was it super early, you killed it in this episode. - She murdered it in this episode. - Well, we brought up the fact that like, there was, every day we went to work,

was just like a celebration. It was a gift. Like we were all given the opportunity to rise to the occasion. We got to like

do these incredible scenes with each other. It just like, it was never ever lost on me. There was never like an autopilot moment. - Right. - The entire time we were doing the show. - It's the same way I feel about doing every episode of this podcast. - There you go. - Aw, friend. - It was the coining of Kotobi. - That's right. - Coining of Kotobi. - In this episode. And it was also just sort of like seeing the new big three. It was nice seeing the three of you guys together. - Yes. - The others. - The others. - The others. - What is this, Lost? - Yeah. - No, man. - Find your push. - Find your power. - With Peloton.

That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. That was us.