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cover of episode Ep 1092 | The Robertsons Wouldn’t Be Here Without Summer Camp & Does Jesus Excuse Adultery?

Ep 1092 | The Robertsons Wouldn’t Be Here Without Summer Camp & Does Jesus Excuse Adultery?

2025/5/15
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Unashamed with the Robertson Family

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Jase: 我收到了一个听众关于出埃及记24:9-10的提问,关于以色列人在山上看见上帝。这与‘人不能见上帝而活’的经文相矛盾,引发了关于圣经中不同内容的疑问。 我与朋友就约翰福音第8章中通奸妇女的故事进行了讨论,这个故事在一些圣经版本中缺失。我个人认为,这段经文可能被遗漏是因为它令人尴尬和不舒服,特别是对于法利赛人来说。耶稣宽恕了这个女人,这可能被误解为在为通奸开脱。 这段经文可能通过口头传统流传下来,后来被插入到约翰福音中,因为它与人们想要用石头砸死耶稣的主题相呼应。 我引用以弗所书5:18来回应关于酒的讨论,指出过量饮酒会影响判断。之后,我们讨论了加拉太书3:22,指出全世界都是罪的囚徒。 最后,我们讨论了以西结书18章,关于上帝对以色列不忠的审判,以及悔改和新生的可能性。 Al: 我分享了我的个人经历,讲述了我的母亲如何带我参加夏令营,这改变了我的人生轨迹,让我认识了基督。 我与Jase讨论了约翰福音第8章的争议,并赞同他的观点,认为这段经文可能被遗漏是因为它令人尴尬和不舒服。 我还分享了关于在乌克兰进行的传教工作,以及如何通过夏令营向孩子们传福音。 Zach: 我分享了关于约翰福音第8章的争议,以及这段经文在不同圣经版本中的差异。 我讨论了这段经文是否在原始文本中,以及为什么它可能被遗漏。 我还讨论了马可福音16:9-20的类似争议,以及如何看待圣经的无误性。 我与Jase和Al讨论了以西结书18章,以及如何理解上帝对以色列不忠的审判,以及悔改和新生的可能性。

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I am unashamed. What about you? So welcome back to Unashamed. We were talking in between podcasts about when you get a text or an email from somebody. Jace, I got one yesterday from a listener.

He and I have conversated, I guess. Is that a word, conversated? I think so. I have a dictionary here, but I'm pretty sure that's it. I don't want you to hurt your back picking that thing up. So he said he was reading the book of Exodus, chapter 24, verses 9 and 10, where the Israelites were at the mountain. It says in verse 10, they saw God.

And I'm not sure if that's the scene where they're at the scary mountain or not. But he said it troubled him because, you know, it says you can't see God and live. And so, you know, you get a lot of questions and I haven't. I mean, I will answer him at some point. But you get these questions many times. Sometimes they're.

Sometimes they're just curious about different things in the Bible. Do you all ever get those? Oh, yeah. I got into one this week, a controversy. So there's lots of controversies out there that you can get into. Well, here's what I had one today. I mean, because I think, you know, these phones have turned into just a plague, you know. I got a little zombie apocalypse thing.

take that I do in my speeches sometimes because it turns people into zombies. They can't even drive down the road. They're on a cell phone. I've noticed they are doing ads now saying don't text and drive. And you know why they're doing ads? Because people are doing it. They're having wrecks. Yeah. You can't, I mean, we're all driving. And the ads are on people's phones. That's ridiculous. Which, by the way, I mean, last night,

There's one good thing about the phone. I was taking my nap, I say last night. I was taking an afternoon nap. It was about 5 o'clock, I guess. Well, my daughter's in town, and she was taking a nap. And all of a sudden, it goes, and I was like, it woke me up. It was like an alarm clock that was annoying, but it was a tornado warning.

And so my daughter came down and they said, you have five minutes. It'll be there, which I thought was pretty incredible now that they're giving you the time. And so we went down to, uh, you're in Louisiana for this tornado. You're not in Nashville. But you've got PTSD. Cause I mean, you, I mean, it tore up your entire body.

Yeah, it did. Well, the tornado that Jace is mentioning actually touched down pretty near mom and dad's place on the river. Isn't that funny? So they had it. It was in the general area, but I'm 10 miles from their place. And so we had a nice little memory getting in my closet in the basement and got sleeping bags out and hung out for about 15 minutes. We actually heard the wind.

Like at about 524, you could hear. But we survived, so that was good and had no damage. But my parents' place, which they're not there, got hammered. Trees snapped off. So that was one positive about the phone. But another thing is when I get something controversial to get back to your tech, it's so weird that you just randomly bring that up and we all have an immediate story. I actually had this.

This morning happened to me. So some of my friends, they don't realize when I say I don't do social media, well, they'll send me

Zach, you may have to help me with the terminology. Like a link? Like a meme? No, like a link. This one was to Facebook. Well, the problem is... Like a video. They're sending you a video from Facebook, but you can only watch it on Facebook. So I click on it, but I can't go because then it says... Because you don't have it on your phone. You don't have the app on your phone. No, and I don't even... It says, what's your password? I have no idea. Yeah.

So all I could go by was the picture. So instead of explaining to them that you're sending me stuff, they do it all the time with Instagram. Well, I'm like, I have an Instagram, and my lovely wife takes care of that for me. But I have no idea how to get there. But anyway, but based on the picture, I figured out what the story was. So I just gave a thumbs up.

Because the pitcher, and it was a bottle of wine. And Al, you probably remember this. Our brother made some deal during a little duck show where they actually sold, or maybe it was the network. I don't know the details. But they sold wine because they put literally Duck Dynasty on everything.

including wine and they sold it. So it was a pitcher of wine. Well, and it was from a post from a family that we met on when we did our treasure hunting show, but it was years before he, so I guess I figured it all out. It was like, he was scrolling through Facebook, which is dangerous. And he found this like, huh, they, you know, this, the mom of the family had, was going to try this wine. So they didn't know us at the time. So he thought this was interesting. Yeah.

So I put a thumbs up and thought the conversation was over because I didn't know where this was going. Like, were you out there selling wine? I had absolutely nothing to do with that. Just saying. But Jesus did change the water into wine. I thought we were going down that route. You know what I mean? Because we've been there. We were there in John 2, right? Yeah, John 2, you know. So I gave a thumbs up thinking that was over. And then he made this comment, wouldn't let it die. So...

So then I thought maybe spiritual warfare is breaking out. Of course, he's a good buddy of mine. But he said, that may be why. No, he said, that may have had something to do with them having 13 kids, which was funny because they had 13 kids. And I was like, okay, that's funny. So I put ha ha. But then I thought, okay, here's let me let me what popped into my head was Ephesians 5.

And we haven't started the podcast, but I'm just simply saying this is how you turn into something that's kind of like you don't really know what to say. Because I don't if he was fixed to ask me, like, what was the deal with selling wine? You know, I'm like, I had nothing to do with it. But I went biblical. I said Ephesians 518 comes to mind. And let me read that.

which says, I think I read this a few podcasts ago. It says, do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery, which is pretty much just unbridled. Partying. Yeah, whatever. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. So I put Ephesians 5.18 comes to mind. What goes in the human body affects your decision-making process.

Too much wine or the spirit without limits. And I got that from John 3, that little nugget. Remember when John... Too much wine. Too much wine. A little wine, Paul says, is good for your stomach. Well, that's why I put too, T-O-O, much wine or spirit without limits. But watch how the conversation shifted. Then he said, our jails and prisons are good examples of this scripture, sadly. Yeah.

So he went to incarceration. Well, look where I went. I went true. That makes me think of Galatians 3.22, which popped in my head, which I think I quoted here. But the scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that, I capitalized,

The promise by faith, and then I capitalized, in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. See what I did there? Yeah. Which is going to go in with what we're going to talk about today. Because he drew a circle around the prisons, but I drew a circle around...

Around the whole world. The whole world is a slave. Well, no, it says there's a prisoner of sin. So then he responds, we're in the world, but not of the world. So I thought we're in the world, but not of the world, which is a version of a verse. Yeah. But then I put amen. And I would add for those in Jesus that he's newly created, amen.

He created us to be for the world. So I guess if we put that together, let's go with this. We're in the world, but not of the world, but in Christ, we're remade for the world.

To make him know. And then I put, we might have come up with something here. That's pretty good. And then he says, part of my daily prayer is I hope others will see Christ in what I do and say. I thought, now we have a good ending point. Yeah. And then I put, me too. I'm pretty sure that's what we were created for. And the Holy Spirit gives us the power.

And he said, I truly believe that. But I just thought I'd share that it all started with a bottle of wine. Ended in a Bible study. And it ended in a Bible study. But I think this is something that you have to intentionally do.

Because I hadn't seen this guy in a month, and that was our conversation. But I thought that was a good conversation to start today with. That is good. And we're entering into, I would say, a controversy in John 8.

on multiple levels. That's why I brought it up, because I knew where we were headed. You're crafty. He's crafty here. And this controversy in John 8 actually was brought up in our local congregation this past week. So this is actually interesting because I've actually studied up on some of this. So yesterday I go to the store in my pajamas. I come home and Missy's like,

Why would you go to the store in your pajamas? And I said, I wanted to be comfortable. I was wearing Cozy Earth, which you gave me for Christmas. That's right. Don't give a gift and start crying about it. I'm almost tempted to put up a picture of me and Al in our pajamas when we both walked in the same room with the same clothes.

Cozy earth pajama set on. Because I want to put the caption, who wore it better? Al, who would you say wore it better? Well, of course, it's me. But it was really interesting because you rarely see two adult men walk into a room wearing the exact same outfit.

It was awkward, but I will say this. I didn't even feel weird about it. And the reason why is because cozy earth gives you the coziest feel of anything I've ever worn. And I have to be honest, I cannot wait to get home in the afternoon, early evening, not have anything going on that night and to get into my cozy earth pajamas. I would forego my ban on matching pajamas ever.

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Let me reset it. So where we are in the text in John 7, the last podcast, we took a little detour, one of Jason's rabbit holes, but a very lucrative rabbit hole into the book of Ezekiel, because we've been talking so much about the temple and the water flow, and because Jesus had brought up this living water, living flesh, you know, and his blood, all this stuff we've been talking about in these sort of pictures.

And we went back and tied in some more Old Testament to that. And so you're understanding why they're having an issue and a problem.

with accepting him because of who he is as the Messiah, because they're trying to square that up with what they just see as a guy who comes from Nazareth. You know, they just they can't make it happen in their mind. So we get through that chapter seven, verse 52, and they're still sort of arguing about that. You know, who is this guy? Is he the real guy? And so Nicodemus speaks up for me, talked about that. And then there's this section.

In most of our Bibles, and depending on what Bible you use, it may not be in your Bible, which is the controversial part. This may be interesting. So everybody's like, so in mine, when I get to, it doesn't even have 753. Oh, yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. So at 752, at the end, I have a line going across, like a literal line. And then it has in a parentheses, seven.

It says, "...the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7.53," which is, "...then each went to his own home."

through 811, which is the story of this woman caught in adultery. Exactly. And it has another line at the end of that. In other words... Oh, another line. Yeah, I see that. So it's like a subset in your text. Some Bibles have it as a footnote, and maybe it's at the end of the book of John, but

And some Bibles have it in Luke, oddly enough, after I think it's Luke 23. I have it written down somewhere. Luke 21, 38 for most of them, which it does kind of fit Luke's telling of the story because he highlighted a lot of women. Well, they do that because it seems not to be written from these scholarly perspectives in the same way.

As the rest of the book of John? Well, it also was included in some of the earliest manuscripts that we have. You see the same thing in the book of Mark, what's called the long ending of Mark. You see there's a text at the end of Mark that... And this is not...

This was the debate that we had. It was a healthy debate, healthy discussion inside the church was that someone was questioning whether someone believed in biblical inerrancy, the authority of Scripture, right? Because they did not think that this particular text and in addition to this, the Long Indian Mark was in the original text. But this is not outside of conservative belief.

Orthodox Christian teaching. Most conservative scholars would say that, well, it was not in the earliest text. And so that's why if you look in your Bibles, when you get to the story about the woman caught in the act of adultery, you'll have that footnote or that caption that will say these were not included in the earliest manuscripts that were later editions. Yeah.

Well, just to add it to what Zach is saying, we're talking about earliest, we're talking like, you know, first through fourth century A.D. But you do pick it up. It's you start seeing it from like the fourth, the sixth century on. So it has been around a long, long time.

And it has been a part, but it was not part of the original canon. That's what we're talking about here. And so, because we have to be fair with it because there's something unique about the story and how it fits into our Bible. Yeah. This just hit me that a few weeks ago, a new brother, I baptized him in the river, uh,

I think Kirk Cameron actually brought him. And so I apologize. I haven't got back to you because it just hit me that he sent me a question on an email and I was going to answer it later. And I haven't thought about it again until this moment.

But he actually asked me about another place in the Bible where this occurs, which is Mark 16, 9 through 20. Is that the one you just said? Yeah, that's what Zach was talking about. Yeah, it's called the long ending. Yeah, I got asked about that. But now Mark 16 doesn't get as much controversy because it basically says... Same way Matthew is. Yeah, Matthew 28 ends pretty similar. And so...

There's that. But what I was going to say is, I mean, my take on this is I think we can all agree based on the scholars, it probably wasn't in the original manuscript. And so then you start speculating on why. My opinion, I could be wrong, is that the two main stars of this would be Jesus. We're fine with that. And everything Jesus does in this, I would argue, strong argument.

that strongly that it's in character with who he is. Which is a big point because if the text...

That we're going to read were out of line with the rest of Scripture. We should probably not accept it, but it's not. It does not have any bearing on the rest. It doesn't change the way that we see it. So I think it's definitely okay to teach this. True. But my second point is the other main character is a woman caught in adultery. And my opinion is that's probably why it got left out.

I mean, it's just because it's awkward and uncomfortable, especially for the Pharisee believers among us. Yeah.

It's like, well, is he saying a – I mean, because he forgives her in the end. If you haven't read this story, I don't want to, you know, spoil her. Are you saying like you think maybe like the story continued through some type of oral tradition and it was part of the ministry? Yeah, I personally think – yeah, based on everything I read, I think this happened. I don't think it happened within this timeline probably. Yeah.

But they inserted it, and this is my opinion, I believe they inserted it because it starts off with chapter 8 with them wanting to stone this woman, and the chapter 8 ends with the people who weren't recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. They're wanting to stone him. Exactly. So I think that's why they inserted it here. But I will say this, if you take out 753...

through 811, it actually flows. You know, it's like if you just read 752, it said they replied, are you from Galilee too? Look into it and you'll find that a prophet

Does not come out of Galilee. Well, then just skip to 8, 12. When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, I am the light of the world. You know, there's no problem. You see what I mean? It seems to keep going. Well, James, I'll tell you this. There are two people, because we all research this. There's two people that agree with what you said. Well, three, if you include me, because I agree as well, but that agree with us. One is St. Augustine.

who was a church father from around the 4th and 5th century AD. He agrees with your assessment. He thinks that's why it was left out, because some people might think that Jesus is excusing adultery. And so that was part of the fear of putting it in the canon. He says that. And the other one in a more modern context is our old friend N.T. Wright.

Who says something similar. And also D.A. Carson, I believe, also holds this perspective. John Piper. I mean, it's pretty widely accepted among, I would say, very conservative New Testament scholars, pastors. You know, this is not a fringe issue.

belief at all. This is probably what most scholars... Now, I would say, on the flip side of that, most Christians probably would not... Most church members may not know that and may push back on it. Well, I'll say this. So, me reading this passage led me to Ezekiel 18, where

Which, oddly enough, led to a 10-minute overview on Ezekiel, the last podcast. So this is how this all happened. I was going to ask, how did you get... Because I didn't feel like we did a great job of the... What was the rabbit trail that got you there? I kept that a secret until now on purpose. Because I was actually reading whether John 8...

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Now, I'm not specifically sure how I got to Ezekiel 18, but I think it was because somewhere in reading these scholars that they were saying, well, Jesus, when he tells the woman, and we'll read the story, but I'm sure you're familiar with it. That one little line is why everybody who's against this being in the Bible, because he forgave an adulterous woman, who was caught in the act. When Jesus comes to her,

He says at the end when no one was there to condemn her because he said, you without sin be the one to throw the first stone, which is why I brought up the little circle analogy what I did because I heard a lesson from Jim McGuigan one time and I thought it was fascinating on John 8 because he said what happened was they put this woman, they sat her, you know, that's early on in the text. It says they sat her in front of everyone.

And they drew a circle around her and said, she was caught. And what Jesus did was then draw a circle around everybody. Cause he said, you without sin cast the first stone. So you see what he did there? Nobody knows what Jesus stooped down and, and drew on the ground. Yeah. And McGuigan's point, which was very clever is,

Said, well, I'll tell you what he drew based on the story. He drew a big circle. I like that. It was good. I mean, that's why I wanted to bring it up, you know? And I'm saying if you don't think it affected me...

I had that text exchanged this morning. I did the same thing because of John 8. It's like when he drew that circle around the prisons are full, you know, of people who made bad decisions because they drank too much wine. I took that circle and made it bigger. I was like, the whole world's a prisoner. Which was the problem with the Pharisees. They tried to keep that circle big.

where they were outside of it and Jesus, what he was doing, he was just including everybody in it. But when you mentioned Ezekiel, I thought about, because you have a woman here caught in the act of adultery, right? I thought about just the overtones for primarily those two sisters in that Ezekiel 23-ish area that were adulterous sisters.

And they represent Israel and, I guess, Judah. And the idea is that they were cheating on God, on their husband, with these foreign lovers. And so when you read that, you can tend to look at them and say, how horrible of you, right?

Particularly because you kind of see the whole progression from like, I think the vision gives the term like their virgin bosoms. It's kind of like a innocence and young all the way to their bodies were chopped into pieces and distributed to the four corners of the earth kind of scene. So you see that whole thing laid out. So it's easy for us with hindsight 2020 to read back into Israel's adulterous history with kind of a spirit of condemnation.

But to bring it full circle, you get to John 8, and you're like, whoa, wait a second. I'm adulterous. Like, I have a wicked heart. I've cheated on God. I am those sisters in Ezekiel chapter 23. Well, because God had chosen Israel basically in a covenant to be his wife to represent him. Exactly. And they were not faithful. So you're in the section of the...

God's judgment on Israel because of their unfaithfulness. And I do think that's another reason this story is in here because it is, we're dealing with all Jews at this point. I mean, they're going to bring up the law of Moses and there's two passages. I went and looked them up, Leviticus 20 and the other one was in Numbers. And where they get the idea that we should stone someone who is caught in the act of adultery. It actually doesn't,

It doesn't say that. It just says they should be put to death, and then it says there's another verse that says they should be stoned for some other act of adultery or whatever. But I do find it fascinating that there's never been a recorded stoning in the Old Testament, like where that actually, where they shared, we stoned them. I mean, I'm sure it happened, but my point is, for even bringing this up,

is that they weren't trying to fulfill the law. The verse actually says they were using this as a basis to accuse Jesus. So they were taking the law that was written for God's marriage to Israel and then trying to use this woman called Anak to put him in a situation where he had no way to win.

Because if he says, don't do it, they're, yeah. I mean, they read it. They said they said this to test him. And here's the reason why, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Yeah, exactly. They were trying to accuse him because if he says, well, don't stone her, they're like, well, you don't believe in the Torah, the law. And that was from God. And if he says stone her, well, they're like, well, this guy's going around killing people. Yeah.

You see what I mean? What they were doing is, I got a perfect analogy. They were covering their bases. One time somebody told me in regard to a truck that my son had wrecked. They said, it's not total, but they'll probably total it. So they had this particular gentleman, whatever happens, he was going to win because he had it set up both ways. That's what the Pharisees, that's what they were doing right there. You know what we call that? What do we call that? A B.I.

What does that mean? Bad illustration. Not to be confused with B-O, which is body odor. You thought I was going to say something else. So I want to read this Ezekiel 18, if you'll indulge me. Remember, this was an introduction. I read this somewhere where it said, well, this had been introduced in Israel and

about being able, because when Jesus said, go leave your life of sin, he wasn't endorsing that. Of course, adultery is wrong. It was wrong for the nation of Israel to do that and to serve other gods and get into idols and have sex with whoever and whenever, which is why idolatry and sin are always linked in the Old Testament. And look, in the New Testament,

One of the verses in the New Testament books, I'll find it. You know, the last words, I think it's 1 John. Yeah. When we get to 1 John, you know what the last verse in 1 John is? I knew you wouldn't know. That's why I asked you. I mean, 1 John is just all about, you know, kind of the conversation I had on the text. It's like,

We're in the world, but we're not of the world. And the world has been crucified to me or we've overcome the world and all this in this world. We're like Jesus, all this kind of thought. And the last verse in 1 John is, dear children, keep yourself from idols. And it never leaves because they're linked. And it's a way for humans to justify their sinful behavior. I mean, it goes in cahoots. You change the heart.

where it's not focused on the one true God, and guess what comes out of it?

A lot of sin. Yeah. A lot of breaking of the rules. Well, and I thought, I thought just before you read that, the analogy from the, from the McGuigan sermon was so good because this idea that somehow Jesus was condoning adultery. I mean, he, he squelches that by his last line of saying, go now and leave your life of sin. He's not saying he's condoning. He just drew the circle out that anybody can fit in the circle and,

of being deserving of death because of sin. I mean, he highlights hypocrisy as much as adultery.

So one of our partners that really means a lot to us is pre-born. And obviously they talk a lot about moms and unplanned pregnancies. And Jason, it made me think about you preached recently at our church, and you kind of brought this into the narrative you were explaining, which I thought was pretty good. Yeah, I actually made a line that the Bible's about God getting his family back, but there was a profound statement that a lot of people came up and talked to me about that I said, which was of all the ways the...

Creator God could come to the planet. He chose to come through a mom. Yeah. And so when someone finds himself in that position, it's the future of their unborn child. It's an overwhelming situation. So pre-borns whole ministry is to love these women, empower them with the choice of life and,

And now this is our eternal moment to step alongside and help these folks get where they're trying to go. We heard about one girl, Stephanie, who was scared and afraid and felt she didn't deserve love and support. But after receiving so much love and support from a caring clinic,

She experienced her eternal moment when she met her child on ultrasound. She left the clinic feeling hopeful, and now she's blessed by her five-year-old son. So it's stories over and over like that that have helped us not only walk alongside Preborn, but also the pro-life movement. So we want to encourage you guys, when you support Preborn, you're supporting pro-life clinics nationwide with free ultrasounds to help empower a mother to choose life.

Your tax-deductible donation of $28 monthly is reaching eternity. To get involved, simply dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby. Or you can visit preborn.com slash unashamed. That's preborn.com slash unashamed.

Well, I mean, I think, and to go back to Ezekiel and, for that matter, the entire Old Testament, which is just stained with adultery over and over and over again. God continues not only to condemn the adultery of His people, He continues to punish them, but He also, what does He continue to do?

offer a way out, offer grace, a remnant. And so you see the biblical arc is not, God's not, oh, I see your sin. That's okay. Don't worry about that. No, actually the story of the gospel is God sees your adultery and he says, it's actually much worse than you think it is. And I see you there while we were enemies, Romans 5 says, while we were sinners, Christ died for us. And so that goes back to that,

version of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned for the first time. God doesn't say when they covered up, He didn't say, oh no, you guys have no reason to cover up. He didn't say that. He actually said, no, your covering is not durable. And so He sheds the blood of an animal and He provides another, a better, more lasting, durable cover, which foreshadows the covering of Jesus. But He never says, take the fig leaf off. You guys are good. Go around naked. He does not tell them to continue in their nakedness. He doesn't.

affirm that they need a covering. And I think that's the same thing going on here. He's not affirming her adultery. He's just saying that I'm present in your adultery and I love you and I die for you there or will die for you there. I'm there in that moment, but go and sin no more. So, yeah, good point. So I want to share this Ezekiel 18 because speaking of controversy, but we're just going for it.

So this is in this part where God's going to judge Israel for his faithfulness from Ezekiel's prophecy perspective. And it says, the word of the Lord came to me, 18 one. What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel? The fathers eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. And look, this same phrase is used in Jeremiah 31. And in that section, it,

He introduces the thought, you'll find this familiar, that says there will come a time when God says he will put their laws in people's hearts, which is cross-referenced to Hebrews 8. It's definitely looking forward to people having a chance to turn from their wicked lifestyle. So that's kind of the context here.

And so then he tells these three stories about a father and then a son and then a grandson. So the first one is verse three says, as surely as I live, declares the sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel for every living soul belongs to me. The father, as well as the son, both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die. This going back to the garden.

You know, you eat of that tree and you'll surely die. And what did the evil one say? No, he told you, told him a lie.

And so they took their eyes off God. And what happened? They weren't faithful and separation happened. They're no longer here. They died. They died. So, so then he tells this story. Suppose there's a righteous man who does what is just and right. He does not eat mountain shrines or look at the idols of the house of Israel. It doesn't defile his neighbor's wife. You know, he doesn't impress, uh, oppress anyone. He, I'm just skipping through it. Uh,

So you have him. He follows my decrees, verse 9, faithfully, keeps my laws. That man is righteous. He's going to live, declares the sovereign Lord. And then verse 10, he has the next person. Suppose he has a violent son who sheds blood, who does other things. And here's this. He defiles his neighbor's wife. There's the adultery. Commits robbery, does all these things.

And then at the end of verse 13, he says, will such a man live? He will not because he has done all these detestable things. He will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head. Well, then suppose he has a son who sees all the sins his father commits. And though he sees them, he does not do such things. He does not eat all that. So you got one righteous, one that wasn't, one was wicked and idols and all this. Then you have another righteous.

So then he goes on to say, verse 19, yet you ask, why does the son not share the guilt of his father since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees? He will surely live. So he basically says he's not inheriting his son. It's kind of every man for himself is what's described there. And he explains that.

the righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged to him. That's verse 20. So then verse 21 says, here's the key verse. But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live and he will not die. There's the fly on the arm. All of a sudden he's like, but if that guy who was wicked died,

decides to turn and look at this language verse 22 none of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him because of the righteous things he has done he will live do i take any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares the sovereign lord rather am i not pleased when they turn from their ways and live i mean does this language sound familiar yeah it sounds like repent

For the kingdom of heaven is near. He's introducing an idea that there will be a way to turn, to start over.

So that's the gist of it. Read verse 32. Yeah, I think somewhere he says repent. He says, for I take, the last verse, for I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the sovereign Lord, repent and live. Yeah, he also says in verse 30, therefore, O house of Israel, here we go. That's what I want to read. I will judge you. I told you it was a judgment on Israel.

Each one according to his ways declares the Lord. Repent, turn away from all your offenses, then sin will not be your downfall.

Rid yourselves of all the offenses. Here's the key. You have committed and get a new heart and a new spirit. Well, where's he going to bring that up again? He's going to bring that up again in Ezekiel 36 and 37, which is in this section of the hope for Israel, the nations, the new Jerusalem, and the whole creation.

So you see the shadow of that and it helps you understand that. And that, that kind of thinking when you come to John eight, because Jesus is introducing something, introducing Jesus is fulfilling something that was introduced way back in Israel's adultery with God, the father. So, so let me tie this off and we'll pick it up next time we get back into this text.

I mentioned into right earlier, he said, I'm not sure exactly where it fits in the original codex, but I know this and I'm confident that God seemed to put it where it was needed. And so I think that's a good way as we approach this. So so we've got a we're going to take a break and we come back from our break. We've got one of our partners here.

This is going to join us on the podcast. Tell us a little bit about one of the beauty, one of the beautiful things that we've been able to do since we're kind of on our own is really find some great minded partners to walk alongside us with the podcast. And so we got one of those is coming on for a few minutes and tell us about his ministry. So we'll take a break.

Well, and I'll add this. We're going to tell you, I want us to talk about the impact that the camp has had on our life because it kind of coincides with this. There'll be some good stories to be on the other side of the break as well. Well, yeah, that's what I was going to say. The breakdown of the families across our planet has caused a lot of problems generationally. And fortunately for us, Jesus...

It's for everybody. And even though the family, the earthly family may break down, he sends people in to share Jesus so they can become a part of his eternal family, which is where we were headed with all this. So we'll take a break and we'll come back. We'll introduce our friend.

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Well, yeah, you know, we're big fans of the On a Shame podcast, especially my wife. I don't think she's missed an episode since we got introduced to you guys. Oh, my goodness. Well, she tries to catch up. Good luck saying that for the next three years. Well, yeah, right. I know that. I'll have to confess every time. So I have these long lines where you have like me.

a meet and greet and somebody will come up like a guy and he'll be like, man, I got to tell you this. My wife loves your podcast. And I do the same thing every time they do that. And I say, what seems to be your problem?

And they just do not know what to say. They're like, well, yeah, what would you say? I just do it for fun, you know, because they don't realize how that sounded to my ear. Yeah, right. So you're saying you're not quite there yet. So if you don't know who we're talking to, we're talking to Paul Marty, one of our dear friends from the Tomorrow Club. Paul, thanks for coming on and being with us, brother. Hey, it's great to be here.

Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, we were talking about, because one of the things that we're pushing for right now with you guys, and it's why we wanted to have you on, is these summer camps we're doing. Summer camps have been a big part of our story. My mom, who has gone on to be with the Lord, if anyone's watched the movie The Blind, she was the one that brought Phil to Christ. But during that same time period, Al, she somehow got with you and your first kind of real introduction to life.

the church of Jesus was at a camp that my mom took you to, correct? Yeah. And what was amazing about it, Paul, was she, you know, cause you guys do so much work and like hard to reach places, places where, you know, around the world that you just can't get to. We were right here in the good old U S of a, but we were deep into the throes of the setting for the blind, which, you know, is the movie about mom and dad's early life.

And we were almost unreachable because, you know, dad had just walled us off from anything spiritual. But my Aunt Jan, Zach's mom, she made her way through. She was like, no, you know, my nephews.

They're going to have an opportunity. And so I had two older nephews that lived, one older, one that lived in Houston. She went all the way to Houston, picked them up, came and picked me up in Junction City, living behind a bar and got us to a summer camp in 1974 that she was working at, you know, as a college student and exposed us to Christ. And, you know, that doorway open.

It changed my life and I was never the same since. And I didn't really appreciate it. I think until I got, you know, further along in life and as a pastor later that I was able to appreciate that investment into me through that camp. And so that's why I relate so much to tomorrow clubs and what you guys are doing. Yeah. Well, thanks Al. Yeah. That's a, it's, it's a powerful ministry. In fact, we, uh,

We call it the summer camps, the gateway to discipleship because so often that's where kids get introduced to Christ for the first time, just to build off of your story. And it's also the main way that we introduce new communities to the Tomorrow Club's ministry. So after the camp, a Tomorrow Club starts and the kids can continue on in discipleship with the seeds that have been planted at the camp. So.

So it's powerful, multidimensional. Yeah, what's it – because I found this interesting because I live in an area up in the Carolinas. There's a lot of summer camps here, and they're probably – I'm not kidding. There's some nice ones here. Some of them are like $2,500 to $3,000 a week per kid. But what does it cost you guys to put on these camps? I think that's important for our audience to understand. Yeah, well, Zach, it's hard to believe, but we do these camps for –

The average cost is $1,000. So that's $10 for a whole week of camp per child. That's insane. Well, I'm curious. I can tell that you're not from the South.

So we don't need subtitles, which some of our last guests, I recommended it. Yeah. And I realized I need them also. But I was, because I'm hearing your voice and I'm thinking, okay, we got into summer camps at some point. Because if you're, you know, if you're from the north somewhere, it's probably cold. So you appreciate the summer more than we do. Because during our summers, we're wanting to get out of here. And it is brutal. They were telling all these stories about camp and,

I mean, you go out there, they take up your phone and it's like a hundred degrees, but you kind of get used to it just because of all the pageantry there. But I was just curious how this got started. How the camps got started? Yeah. I mean, yeah. Well, you know, we've, we've been doing ministry in, in Eastern Europe for, um, and started in Ukraine. Well, it's getting close to 30 years ago now. And, um,

In the beginning, we didn't know what we were doing, and we were just looking for ways to introduce the ministry to new communities. We knew that, especially in the post-Soviet towns and villages where we lived, there's

Evangelical Christians, I mean, they're outcasts. They're like lepers in a lot of cases. It's getting better now. But at the time that we started, I mean, it was really difficult to get kids to come to an evangelical church because the stigma that went with it from three decades of communism. So we found that

And these camps were really the perfect thing to do. We'd go around and invite kids to a fun thing. It was a neutral kind of environment. So it was really just kind of the perfect venue to get to the camp.

to get kids there, they'd have some fun and they'd get introduced to Jesus. And that was the introduction. And then from there, we were able to go on and start a club and continue discipling them. One of the things, Paul, that struck me was that some of the stories that we've been telling about your ministry, and I love it that it's personal, it's people that their lives are being changed. And some of the places that you mentioned,

or places that we've been personally. I mean, you mentioned Moldova, which we've done a lot of work there, and there's so many orphans there. And I remember this from like 20 years ago. South Africa I've been to and done some mission work. Jace has been to Ukraine. Probably sounds like about the same time, Jace. Well, when he said that, I about fell off my chair because I didn't know that before we just met.

But so I was there. I was part of a team that went in 91, 1991. Were y'all after that? Yeah, we got started in 1997. Well, so we were actually the John the Baptist to the Tomorrow Clubs. Yeah, you were preparing the way. Hey, let me just say thank you. Well, you know, what's interesting is you know who mainly showed up? We went to, there were only three gymnasiums.

in the whole entire country of Ukraine. And we went there and we gave out food. We shipped a bunch of food over there. And we had little house church meetings every night.

And I actually, me and the other two guys, we spoke at a university, and they only had a couple of English-speaking, universities that specialized in learning English. And so that's how we got in, because they just said, y'all can talk about anything, and people will show up. So we put a sign up and said, learn this language, and we put the little gospel diagram, the cross sign,

The arrow coming down the cross, the two, the arrow coming up, and the arrow coming back, meaning Jesus is coming back. And we said, learn this language with three Americans. Admission is free.

And I thought it wouldn't work, but our classes were full every day. Oh, yeah. And they just wanted to hear English-speaking people. But where all the people showed up is because none of them could play basketball very well, what we found. But we were all pretty good, and so hundreds of people would show up, and then we would invite them to the churches. But it was a lot of kids.

And it was really rough conditions. You went there a little later where it was suitable for people to come in because that's the only time in my life that I was actually hungry. The last five days, we didn't have any food because we had given all ours away because I knew we were coming back.

But that's so interesting. Yeah, those were tough times. Yeah, and like you, we fell in love with those kids and those young people, and it was just such a sad situation. And it really took off there. A lot of people came to the Lord from that time on. Oh, yeah. Yeah, well, and thanks to outreaches like that, I know exactly what you mean. In fact, one of the big draws, whenever we can at these camps, even now, we do teach the English language.

And that's a huge draw for kids and parents. Again, they'll overlook a lot of things that they might not like about it if their kid's going to learn some English. Yeah, isn't that something? That's weird how I think God works, even bringing us together today. Absolutely. One of the things that I know we've...

been talking about something new you guys are doing about the 30 camps this summer. We're trying to get our audience, Unashamed Nation, to invest in what you guys are doing. And we just want to say thank you for being one of our partners on Unashamed Podcast because you guys are helping us get the gospel out around the world. And we love being able to do that back with you to children. Tell us a little bit about the campaign for the 30 camps and kind of what you guys are doing. Yeah, well, this summer we are...

We're asking the Unashamed audience to help us sponsor 30 camps. That'll be about 3,000 kids. And most of these camps are going to be in really, you know, very unreached places, remote places where a lot of, I would say very often it's going to be 80 to 90 percent have never heard the name of Jesus.

And there's going to be about 100 kids at each camp. And each, as I mentioned earlier, each camp just costs just $1,000, which for 100 kids here in the gospel every day and being introduced to Christ is, you know, it's hard to beat in terms of investment. So, yeah.

Yeah, so that's what we're doing. And these are going to be mostly the camps this summer are going to be mostly in the Eastern European countries where we work. There'll be quite a few of them in Ukraine.

And a lot of these are for refugee kids that have just been devastated by the war. And I mean, it's you don't hear that much about this, but boy, the kids have really been really been hurt by the war in Ukraine and in so many different ways. And this is a chance for us to minister to them as well. One of the reasons why I wanted to partner with you guys is obviously you guys are in these really difficult places. But my own story growing up in America is.

And ironically, it came full circle for me around camp because my mom had taken Al to camp when he was a young man, a little boy. And that set his trajectory to become a pastor, to be a minister of God's word. And then when I was 17, I finished my junior year of high school.

And I was in a tough spot at that time in my life. I mean, raised in a Christian home, but I wasn't living a Christian life at all. And in my community, there just wasn't a lot of Christian influences. We went to the beach with the Robertsons one year, that year, and I was sitting in a lawn chair. Al, you may not remember this. And we were talking.

And I was just sharing with you kind of my story. And I didn't realize you were ministering to me at the time, but you were. You were speaking the truth of Jesus over me. I respected you. I looked up to you as my older cousin. And you told me, you invited me to Camp Chioka.

And I was kind of like, you know what? I think that the Holy Spirit was like, you need to go there. I didn't interpret it that way at the time, but I went. And my parents didn't have the money to pay for it. Somebody else paid for it. Chris and Johnny Howard paid for my way to go to that camp. And I'm telling you, 11th grade summer,

That two weeks at that camp fundamentally shaped the direction of my life from that point on. I mean, I would not be doing this podcast today. That is where I had my first encounter with Jesus Christ was at a camp, January.

junior year after high school. And so this is dear to our heart. And we really want the Unashamed Nation to support what you guys are doing. We're going to support what you're doing. We're going to sponsor some kids. I mean, 10 bucks a kid, you can send them to camp. I mean, everybody can do that.

And the way you can do that as you're listening is you can go to tomorrowclubs.org slash 30 camps. Exactly. Yeah. Or they can text 30 camps to 44321. Yeah. Let's get these 3,000 kids taken care of and get them in a Tomorrow Clubs camp, a

cross the pond and see what the Lord might do. So thanks for coming on, Paul. It really means a lot that you invited us in to participate in this ministry with you. Well, thanks again so much for having me, guys. And God bless your ministry. You're doing a lot and we appreciate you too.

God bless you. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed Podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.