Ep 1112 | Jase Calls Out the Preacher Trend That Goes Against Everything the Bible Says
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What about you? Three, two, one. We're live. That was a fake countdown. I can't even respond to that. I'm looking at that coffee over there. We've already decided if you're watching the podcast...

Because we're in the afternoon. We're out of our element. Just out of our element. This may be the first time in the history of this show that we've ever done a podcast in the afternoon. There haven't been many. We had Shane and Shane on a few podcasts ago. Yeah. Well, here's what's funny is I did one of their shows. They do a daily devotional or whatever. Did you sing?

Oh, I sung. Yeah, and Missy was in charge of it. If you would have filmed behind the scenes of that. Oh, this is when she went choir teacher on them. She went choir teacher. Because they said, teach us the song. But I knew they didn't realize what that meant. Because here, I mean, they're pretty world-class singers.

My wife is in charge. You're fixing to do what she says. She all but slapped him on the hand and said, we're going to sing this song this way. And they kept trying to interject. She said, that's good. Listen. Listen. She said, quit playing the guitar and listen. Because they kept, they were trying to find the notes. We're breaking the fourth wall. We all want to come out. We all want to come out of that.

Yeah, we all got coffee coming. So it was fun. So I used the same illustration to them. And I said, because I said, look.

I think this is great that y'all have invited us to sing one of your evos. And Missy's going to teach you a song. And we sang it acapella. The whole funny part of it was, it wasn't that she wanted to sing the song acapella and they usually have instruments. It was the fact that this song was created for four parts of harmony to mesh together.

At the end, it's like that is the power of the song. Is this Love One Another? Yeah, Love One Another. Or Greatest Commandments, what it's called. Which I didn't know that her mom wrote one of the parts. She wrote it. Well, that's when I realized why she was being so, she was just being very direct. She was like, yeah, her mom wrote a part of it. So then they get real quiet. It was so funny to me. I was laughing so hard because she was all business.

And, you know, you're doing this off the top of your head, and they didn't know the song. And I'm like, what could go wrong? A lot. So what I told them, I said, you can always do the Andy Griffith philosophy on this, which none of them had seen that. So then I started questioning their salvation in the singing business. Because I said, what, you haven't seen that? And they had a lot of episodes around them singing in a choir. Exactly.

Exactly. Which was really cool. Well, the choir director, my favorite line of that Andy Griffith episode, when he would go meet with Andy and he was like, but Andy, he can't sing. Because he was like, it's going to break his heart. But Andy, he can't sing. Yeah.

And so they go do the mic test, and they convinced him that the mic was so sensitive that the softer he sang, the better it would sound. And then they had Gomer Powell outside the window. No, it wasn't. It was just some guy who was not at home. That was good TV. He comes out with this booming voice, and Barney was such a...

You see he swells up with pride because it was just, you know, booming, you know. And it's like everybody can have a song. So I was like, well, we'll do that. I was like, I'll sing so soft. Because the problem was, the problem with this whole thing was it's a four-part harmony. But Zach, he can't sing. That's what I kept saying. I was like, you got to hang on to it. Missy said, Jace will sing the bass. And I said, hang on here.

Alone? I kept saying, alone? And so one of their guys, who was just a grip guy for Shane and Shane, he's like, I actually know this song. Oh, yeah. He grew up in the Church of Christ. I said, well, sing. He knew Harmony. I said, sing with me softly.

Because I just need someone to lead me. I need to hear it. But Zach, he can't sing. So I'm nervous about when it comes out because it's the bass. But you know what's funny? We had this whole argument because Reed, my son, was there who can sing the telephone book. But he was doing the tenor part.

But the tenor part comes later. So actually... You really have to sing to do the tenor part. Actually, he started... Reed started off with me on the bass because it comes a little later. Right. And so it actually worked out. I mean, I'm sure I hit a bad note or two in there, but...

Just full disclosure. But... I actually, I've listened to it. What did you think? I thought it sounded great. Well, how was the bass? The bass was... I'm telling you, I was... You can sing. Well, that song, my dad really loved, which is why we did it. It's one of my favorites. We've sung it so many times. Oh, my goodness. Years ago, when we sang it at WFR, we went through an era where we sang it, and they would always have this hold hands across the aisles, which was always awkward to me. But...

It was so loved by the church that it was... Well, it was... If you grew up in the Church of Christ, you know, it's like a... Let me know you grew up in the Church of Christ without telling me. Just sing that song and you know that you grew up in the Church of Christ. Anything with four-part harmony. I went to Harding University, which is a Church of Christ school. Pepperdine is one where your kids went. Abilene Christian. Lipscomb. Lipscomb and Chapel...

we would sing that song with 4,000 students, and it was like, whoo. Yeah, it's very touching. And it was great at Dad's celebration service. I thought it sounded fantastic. Yeah, he loved it. Well, I think it's with all the chaos of life, and you always have family disagreements and all that. There was just always something about that song when you sing with other people, and it was just voices.

It's like, okay, it's a reset here. We got to love one another. Yeah. And things happen. And so that's why that song means a lot to me. I love that song.

And you conclude Jesus was right again. Yeah, graceful man. Love God, love your neighbor. Which is another. How many times did Dad say that? Yeah. Love God, love your neighbor. You know, he would. Well, then he would say. Give it a try for crying out loud. No, he would say, give me a break. Give me a break. So. He always did that whistle thing too. Yeah. You know, he'd say. He would always do that when he was like making a joke. Sometimes, next time we get Willie on here.

Help me remember, Matty, that we need to do a revival, speaking of revival, of Willie doing Dad reading the church bulletin. Oh, that was a classic. Well, you have to set it up, though, because Phil... That was a classic. He went through a...

An era. No, I'm trying to think of the Christianese language that Zach used all the time. A season. He went through a season of life. He said that on the last podcast. I did my eye roll. You don't like that term? You think it's Christianese? I wrote a book called A New Season. I think somebody in a meeting one time decided to categorize everything. All their leaves are brown. And it's like...

I'm going through this season right now. I just don't like it. You're so cynical. No. Part of me sees it because I know what you're saying. Because you've got a couple of cynical bones in your body, by the way. Just call it a season.

I can't stand it. It does seem a little pretentious. Most of the times, though, when people say that, it's coming from the outfit thing that became a thing in churches, you know, where everybody started wearing these weird get-ups, you know, and then everybody's wearing the same. They got, like, high-top tennis shoes. Oh, no, and there was the elf boots and the hat and the little vest. And I'm like, you look like you're going camping. Yeah.

Or when the tennis shoe phase, can I bring a hot top tennis shoe? I was like, what's he going to do? Dunk a basketball and make an illustration somewhere in it? No, it's just like the look. I would walk into green room after green room after green room and everybody would look the same. The hat, it was like a ball. No, I did like five events in a row where when I shook the pastor's hand,

He literally had the same getup as the guy five states over that I just did an event. And after the fifth one, I just said, look, you need to consider your wardrobe. I was like, all of y'all look the same. I would always look at myself and I said, I didn't get the memo that this was what we're supposed to wear. Somewhere in all this, because that was, you know, what church I was raised in. I mean, I was raised in a bar. And I'm actually...

Kind of thankful for it because I missed all the seasons and the Christianese and what we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to dress. That was your bar season. You were just in the season of bars. I'm just saying, I really think the church is a movement of people where the body of Christ, we're supposed to move on the planet and be authentic. And I just think once you kind of get to a building and you feel like you got to wear the same clothes

Like, fashion to identify yourself with certain groups. We just missed it. I mean, I think the verse says when we're Galatians 3, we put on Christ. Have you heard of the Instagram page called Preacher Sneakers? I have. We actually talked about this on the podcast. Have we talked about this? All they do, yeah, I think I brought it up because we had a guy on who –

Didn't we have the guy on that does that site? I've met him somewhere. He's from here. I don't think it was here. Well, I met him somewhere. He's from Russia. But all he does is he puts on the prices of like shoes or outfits that preachers wear. Yeah. That's what he does.

Oh, really? He doesn't preach a sermon. He's just like, this pastor, and he's like, he has all the arrows pointed. He'll put a screenshot of the pastor. They'll have his whole outfit, and it'll be like the sneakers, like $900. Oh, exactly. The jeans, $2,000. It'll have the whole, and you're looking at it, you're like, whoa. Whoa.

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Also went to the season four premiere, and I'm happy to announce that it's out on Prime Video. So in this season, the final hours are approaching, and here's their description of it, and I love it. It says, Loyalties will be tested, pushed to the edge of faith and trust,

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We'll be watching the new season. You don't want to miss it. Season five is now streaming on Prime Video. But, you know, it's funny that sometimes looks can be deceiving. I remember Mike and I were doing a peak of the week one time, which was our Wednesday night thing. And I forgot. I can't remember the text we were in. We were talking about how this sometimes you get deceived. And so we asked Randy to wear what he would typically wear to

at Merrill Lynch, you know, because he's a financial guy, obviously nice suit. And so we had him come up. We called him up front. And so we went through his outfit, you know, and it was kind of embarrassing, but it was funny and about the cost. And we had looked it up and then we had the cost of it. Well, then dad was there.

And I had made sure and got like dad's the full deal. Like he was wearing his camo. At that time, we were doing Under Armour camo. But I had brought his coat and everything. So we put all of dad's stuff on. Then we did a price comparison. Oh, and Phil's were much. Guess who has way more money. Well, it's like as you see some of that. That Under Armour camo was almost double that suit. I actually made that point when one time I was at an event. They wouldn't let me in because he thought I was a vagrant.

Which is happening on more than one occasion. Yeah, and I made the point somewhere in the argument because he said something about my clothes, you know? And I was like, I will bet you $100 that I have on me right now that my wardrobe costs more than yours. And he's like, I'll take that bet. And you're like,

And you're going to regret it because I'm the best. And we started looking it up. And then all of a sudden he's like, well, how about I just let you in? And with, with an apology, I really wanted that a hundred dollars. I was like, well, you think about if you see someone roll up in a, in a $90,000 Audi and you think, oh, pretentious.

But if they roll up in a $100,000 King Ranch Ford pickup truck, you don't think anything about it. But I mean, the truck, I mean, those things are... A truck, that's right. My whole point is Jesus didn't look like that. He didn't have anything expected. He had nothing. Ooh. Mic drop. Get off the flat bill hat and the... You got Joseph of Arimathea. He was a rich man. Jesus was buried under a rich man's tomb. You can be rich and be a Christian.

Well, but I say... Jesus wasn't, but you can be. But I use the comparison of Jesus because I have two categories, Jesus and then everybody else. So I think I just won that argument. Plus, when you own the universe... You don't need it. It's all yours anyway. Which is kind of funny because the only thing I could...

relate to that was Alton Howard, who was Corey's grandfather, who was a very wealthy man, but never had money on him. Like we would go someplace and I was literally an intern at our church. So I was like at about a thousand a month.

from him which was a blessing but we would go someplace and he wouldn't have any money yeah and he'd be like you kind of you got any cash and i was like yes sir you know and i would pull out my little money and pay for the coffee or whatever this is a common problem he was paying my salary but he never carried money i've been with a lot of celebrities baseball players not usually with willie

And guess who financed whatever we had to do? Me, because none of them had any money. I don't carry cash. Well, I got to talk to my guy. I got no cash on me right now. Well, now it's a little more, yeah, because Zach does it too. But now it's a little more because transactions are what they are. But it used to be like- But in the old days, you still had money. In the old days, it was a strategy. You didn't carry cash. Oh, I'll grab you later. But it was a way to get out and pay for little stuff. And one thing I did want to remind the audience, we are doing this promo-

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Although I have, I mean, I wear some flat bill hats. In fact, you got called you a narcissist. Yeah. One guy made fun of me for wearing my flat bill hats. Yeah. He said he, I mean, just went after me on really like it was a thing. Oh, you got all my thing, but I don't disparage people that we all missed the point. I was just saying, if you all look this, yeah, I get you. Some kind of get up. That's very noticeable. The high boots and the,

Just weird look. And I'm like, it's like, it's like fashionable. It's like, it's real fashion. It's like, if I'm going to be a preacher, this means I'm a cool one. Yeah. And I'm like, no, that goes against everything. I think the Bible says, so there you go. There's my speech. Controversy right there.

Controversy sells. So if you're listening and that's your getup, that's what we're saying. Well, I just always say be modest. I'm okay if you, look, I'm a little more open to if you want to, yeah, it is a little weird. It's not weird that the getup's not weird. I did think it was strange that it was like plug and play.

And I think that's what... Well, it was weird that it was like state after state. Jason's exactly right because I had the same experience. Yeah, I like the story. It didn't make me think less of him, but it's just what it is. Well, I actually think, though, we're at an interesting moment in our culture, particularly when it comes to church, that I think we're at the end of that. I think people... Like, our church is...

kind of a refuge for different groups of people. One of the groups I would say are those who kind of got to the end of that movement and just like, man, what are we doing here? This is like a plug and play. No, I agree. There's a lot of conferences now that are bursting forth where they're kind of embracing the idea that we may disagree on some things, but we're going to come together. Well, you know, that's rare. Well, plus, I don't know how it is around the country. Although I've been hearing about it, I know it's huge here, and Zach was just a part of one.

a spiritual wave is what I call them. They'll, they'll roll through and I, and I call them Holy spirit moments, but it's lately it's retreats are the thing that a lot of people have, have found their connection to God, Christ and community at the same time. And that's usually at a campground somewhere, someplace out in the middle of nowhere. I mean, super dial back the one I went on and you're not supposed to talk about it too much because they got a whole bout of things. I'll say that were meaningful that I think I could share. Um,

Why is it private? Well, it's part of the... They're trying to make you experience it without knowing what happened. It's like not telling a movie. Oh, my goodness. Well, we're just exchanging one Christianese for another. Oh, we have a secret thing.

I just think if you're going to go public for Jesus, go public for Jesus. If you have something working, hey, guess what? Pass it on. Don't keep it a secret. You're not keeping it a secret. What you're doing is you're inviting people into an experience. I didn't know what I was getting into, and you're kind of out of your element. I was a little uncomfortable going into it. Okay.

But I'm saying there's a lot of people that are being introduced. Yeah, I think there's a hunger happening across the globe right now of people that are getting to the end of kind of what they thought would sustain them. And it's crazy what they're seeking out, and they're finding Jesus. And it reminds me of that Acts 17 passage, that he's not far from each one of us. And I got invited this week, last week, this past week, to a

a testimony night, which I, you know, we love testimonies growing up in our, the way we grew up, hearing them all the time. But in Asheville, it's not as common. That culture is not as common for people to openly share their story. And so Jill had met this girl on Instagram that lived in Asheville because I talked a lot about like new age people coming to Christ in our area, at our church a lot. And it's, and,

And this other girl, not affiliated with anything we're doing, was on Instagram and had this viral clip where she was like, what's with all the New Age people coming to know Jesus? And she was a former New Age person. I don't even know what New Age is. It's like kind of like Buddhist, Hindu, kind of like hippie, kind of like an awesome guy. Kind of a one with the universe guy.

Yeah, they probably wouldn't refer to themselves. I mean, I like the name, New Age. Because really, like, when you see eternal life translated, I mean, when you go back to the Greek, it was kind of this present age, age to come. That was their, the Jewish mindset of that. When we see eternal life, it leads us to think about all kinds of things. That's why people got into just, like,

a bodiless existence through eternity. Which is kind of what he's describing. Yeah, it's kind of like that. Convert to energy. Yeah, very energy healers and some Wiccan culture, like kind of witches and things like that. They're all kind of... To me, they need to hear... Your chakra and your parts of crystals. They need to hear about the bodily resurrection. I mean, the last podcast when we closed...

You weren't here because you had an emergency. On the last podcast? I thought you had to go to the bathroom, but it turned out you had to. You just walked out like I did. We didn't ask you. No, he had a meeting. Oh, it was a meeting. You're talking about embarrassing. I was like, you can't wait two minutes for a meeting. Yeah.

Well, when I left the podcast, I could not wait 30 more seconds for my meeting. I had a problem. You were forgiven. But anyway, I read. I was gone for 45 seconds. I want to share this to take you back because I was breaking down that word, the flesh, that we're talking about.

born into with the word that some translate sinful nature. No, you were tracking. I liked where you were going. But Luke 24, I thought it was very profound. After his resurrection, when he said, look at my hands and my feet, it is I myself, touch me and see. A ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see I have. Well, that word flesh, same word. This is post-resurrection. Well, if it was something negative, completely.

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So my point is, yes, we have, if you want to call it sinful nature, okay. But when you were born, everything was fine, or Jesus wouldn't have become a human, and he certainly wouldn't refer to his new body as the same word as flesh and bones as you see I have. Well, we know that flesh was different because it had been changed because 2,000 years later, he's still alive with it. Yeah.

So I'm just saying there's other factors involved that's going to lead you to committing sins. That's why Galatians 5.19 says, the acts of the sinful nature are obvious. Focus on the acts and obvious. And I think it'll keep you from sinning.

what's happening here in John 9, which is they were assuming, oh, is this guy sinful from birth? Or even we use the one in David. So I was kind of piggybacking to that because that's where we left off. Well, and I've always used that verse, the acts of sinful nature or the flesh are obvious, as simple

as a way to combat sometimes when people like to do what I call detective work, detective work of sin building, where you connect A to B to C to come up with D to find out this brother's in a sinful situation. I was like, you know, you're overthinking it too much. You know, you get into these things with the church police instead of just, they're pretty obvious. You can just read them.

You know, they're just there. And you know, you can characterize a life by that. So you don't have to make, build cases for sympathy. Well, one of the things, I told you about my son calling me the other night, was excited about Bible study because I've taught him. I was like, some words when you read the Bible, you think they mean the same thing that another word that could be translated into English the same. You just assume they're all the same.

And so I showed him, I've done it many times on the podcast here. You can look those up on the Bible hub, uh, you know, commentary, Greek lexicon, and it'll show you every place where that word is mentioned in the new Testament. You can do the same thing for the old Testament using the Hebrew lexicon. And it's so shocking sometimes, uh,

Where words are translated into English and it's like, oh, that's not the same word. And I did one one time on here about the word nature. So the time it's used in Ephesians 3, what is it? Ephesians 2, 3. Well, it's a different word from that word sinful nature that's translated in English.

This one's only mentioned like, I think it's a few times over a dozen. But it's this, I wanted to give you this same example

of what we're talking about. And you remember it's in Ephesians when he says, as for you, you were dead, this is verse one, in your transgressions and sins. So just think the acts of the sinful nature. But he describes this. You were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you used to live. When you followed the ways of this world and the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work.

in those who are disobedient. Which we quoted that talking about. We did. There are these celestial beings, and I'm using that plural, that didn't want to do their vocation for God in which they were created for. Correct. And we don't know all the details of what they're supposed to be doing, but we know when they lose that, they are hauled to the earth and became...

problems for humans. That's right. But then it kind of describes what this sinful life was. It says, all of us lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature. Well, there's that flesh. So that one is the same one that Galatians 5, but it's also the same word,

that is used to describe Jesus becoming flesh and post-resurrection. And you tend to think, well, what's your point? Well, you remember in Hebrews 4 where Jesus said he was tempted but was without sin. So he was in the body.

He was tempted, but he did not sin. Right. He was a human. It was not sinful to become human is my statement that I want to make. But then I want to show you how this works. So it says we gratify the cravings of our sinful nature. And I would argue that these are all acts that we acted on the cravings to go to Galatians 5.19. But then watch what it says. Like the rest, we were by nature sinful.

Well, you would assume that's the same word as the sinful nature, but it's not. You say, well, how do you know? Because I looked it up in the Greek lexicon. It's a different word. It means something totally different. And here that word nature is like association. And I'll give you an example. I did this on a podcast probably 100 podcasts ago. So when you look at 2 Peter 1, look, his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness.

Through our knowledge of him who called us. Yeah, it's in verse 4. Keep reading. Okay, by his own glory and goodness. Through these he's given us his very great and precious promises so that through them you may participate in the divine nature. Well, this is the same word. Yeah. Is that nature? And so you say, what is it? Well, it's association. If you're out there following the spirit of the evil one,

then you are by nature, that association going to be what's the second part of that verse? Because of, I mean, verse 3 of Ephesians 2, like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. Well, what's going to happen if you're participating with the evil? It's the natural consequences. It's the natural consequences. But what I'm saying is people who assume that that's the first verse,

People that assume that it's the first phrase say, oh, well, you were born by nature to be an object of wrath. Well, I got a problem with that. And now I know why, because I'm like, when you look at what the word means, you're like, oh, wait, that's a different word. It's like whatever your association, whatever...

Who you're in bed with, the evil one or God Almighty, well, you participate in the divine nature if you've surrendered to God. And that's what this whole thing is about in Ephesians 2, is these two kingdoms, these two entities, one of them's lying, one of them's telling the truth, and you're going to get the consequences from whichever one you're in. Right. It'd be like saying if you were...

a hothead, by nature, you're going to have a hard time getting along with people. Well, exactly. I mean, because you're a hothead. It's not because you were just born and you can't get along with people. So that's kind of what you're talking about, which is good. Well, I think it relates to John 9 because this problem about...

trying to blame somebody from birth or making them sinful at birth. I just think that's a dangerous thing. Well, and I think it's really interesting. And I'm going to fix and read this text, so we'll kind of read the whole story. Because where this story goes proves your point, Jase, because what starts out as something that everybody should have been super happy about because the work of God was displayed, but instead it became the biggest investigation ever

you've ever seen and for a lot of different reasons. So let me read the text and then we'll go back and kind of break down some of the stuff because there's a lot of stuff in here. We spent a couple of podcasts just talking about people get so many things wrong out of this story. So verse one, as he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. And I told you why I think that thread is linked in why John put the story here.

His disciples asked him, Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind? And so they believed in this divine retribution we've been talking about. Jesus says, neither this man nor his parents sinned, said Jesus, but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world, which we'll talk more about that when we come back. Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. Go, he told him, wash in the pool of Siloam. That word means sent, Siloam.

So the man went and washed and came home seeing. So he was cured. His neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging asked, isn't this the same man who used to sit and beg? Some claimed that he was. Others said, no, he only looks like him. But he himself insisted, I am the man. So a little bit of an identity question here.

How then were your eyes open? They demanded. He replied, the man they called Jesus made some mud, put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed and then I could see. Where is this man? They asked him. I don't know, he said. So they brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. So now this is where the investigation started. Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man's eyes was a Sabbath. Uh-oh.

Here we go again. Don't mess around with the Sabbath. You got a Sabbath problem. Therefore, the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He put mud on my eyes, the man said, and I washed. Now I can see. Some of the Pharisees said, well, this man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath. I can't help but laugh because he healed the guy. But others asked, how can a sinner do such miraculous signs? So they were divided.

Finally, they turned again to the blind man and said, what have you to say about it? It was your eyes he opened. The man replied, he is a prophet. The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind. They didn't even question that. And had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents. And they said, watch this how this story unfolds. Is this your son? They asked. Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it now that he can see?

We know he is our son, the parents answered, and we know he was born blind. But how he can see or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is of age. He will speak for himself. So they punted. His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews. For already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ or the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. Now we're getting down to the heart of it.

That was why his parents said, he is of age, ask him. Just think about how sad that is. A second time, they summoned the man who had been blind. So we're going back to this guy. Give glory to God, they say, which is interesting. It means, tell us the truth. We know this man is a sinner.

And he replied, whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know, I was blind, but now I see. That's a mic drop moment. That's a bumper sticker.

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Yeah, the guy there, you think about like when you read that, I was thinking of that Charles Spurgeon quote.

He said something like that the gospel, and I love apologetics, which is defending the claims of the Bible. It's always been one of your best seasons, I thought. It's been one of my best seasons, Jace, is my apologetic season. I love that, but he's, I love defending the truths of the gospel, right? But he said the gospel- Sometimes the seasons close. They close off. Yeah, and that's a good thing. Yeah, well- What did he say? He said that the gospel-

I'm paraphrasing. I'm probably going to get it somewhat wrong, but the gospel does not need to be defended. Yeah. It is a caged lion that needs to be unleashed. Yeah, that's good. And I love that because you see here, like, this man has no apologetic. He has no... He's not carrying the water for Jesus. I mean, he's like, I don't... Here's what I know. I was blind. Now I see. Yeah.

Deal with it. Deal with it. But I think what's crazy, though, is if you read this from a different perspective, he didn't even believe in him. You know, this is a strange miracle. It is. Because he just heals him. And he's like, even the terminology there, they're like, who healed you? What was the first thing he said? It was like, they call him Jesus. The man they call Jesus. The man they call Jesus.

Well, that's not very personalized there. No. So that's why I think this evolves as it comes along. Then he says, you're right. Then he says a prophet. Well, he's got to... Because he's thinking he's got to be something. I mean, like he did... Not a believer. Yeah. But the belief doesn't happen until verse 35. Until we get down to the true... With Jesus. Yeah. And I think it's important to know how this process worked, because when

When Jesus heard, because they're persecuting him. Well, he's the first persecuted person

of Jesus, and he wasn't even following Jesus. He was just a result of Jesus healing. But his honesty is overwhelming here because he literally doesn't have an agenda. Agenda-less. I came to the same conclusion. That's why he was just telling the truth. There's no Christianese language. He's not talking about seasons. Well, his parents even bailed. They were like, you know, yes, he was born blind, but that's all we got. You'll have to ask him. But they were in fear of

of being persecuted. Losing their spot. So I think this last paragraph is important because when he said, when he heard that, when Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, which I love this part because remember what we said, Jesus is showing the character of God. He was concerned about that. Yeah. Because now this guy, he healed him.

He's happy, but everybody should be happy. There's a guy that can cure blindness with some mud, which I think people have always asked, well, what's the deal with spitting? People don't like talking about this. They do these Christianese jokes. It's for a baseball player. They're spitting all over the place. Don't spit on the ground.

I love this because somebody who was born with redneck tendencies, you know, and I'm like, he did a miracle by spitting on the ground because people think that that's not socially acceptable.

You know, now in Louisiana, we don't have that problem. But if you go to New York, you know, and spit on the sidewalk or whatever they're like, what are you doing? I'm looking around. But even in Louisiana, if you spit on me, we got a problem. Well, if you spit on me, we got a problem. But I'm sad the fact that he did that, which is so socially awkward. Awkward. Yeah. And I think it's a picture back to creation.

I mean, he made man out of dust. Mud. So he's making mud. We're mud pies. Yeah, we're mud pies. So he's basically taking the ground with his spit, which his spit is coming from another place. And literally, he came from heaven.

And he regenerated, I don't know a better word. He made that right. Yeah. Which shows you, I think it's a glimpse into this new humanity and this new creation that this is driving this whole train, that everything's going to be made right. Yeah. Everything wrong.

And, you know, to see it like we one time we went on a medical mission trip to Mexico and one of our guys is a doctor that went with us. And there were these people that came in out of the hills. And I mean, they just you talk about remote.

And this super old man was there and we had these glasses and they're trying to match them. Obviously, you know, it's not like it is in America where you just, you know, they test your eyes. And so he tried on these glasses and for the first time could see clearly that

And he just started weeping. Yeah. And I just remember us sitting there thinking, I mean, we just watched it. In his mind, that was a miracle. I mean, in our minds, oh, it's just... Well, you see the ones with the cochlear implants for the kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or even as simple as like someone's colorblind and they put on these glasses and can see color for the first time. Oh, right. And they just weep. Right. And it just is so touching. So you're right, Des, when you read this,

You're talking about miss it, which is the whole point. Well, that's why I wanted to read this in. Well, hang on before you read it. Let me read this little interim part. Can I say something before you do that? The interim part that we're moving to, it is interesting how they change. When they can't corner the man up,

And once it gets to, like, okay, he did it. First it's like, did this really happen? Was he really blind? Yeah, he's like, I don't know if he's a sinner. I know one thing, I was blind, but now I see. And then they moved to the question, well, how did he do it? How did he? Got to get a process. First it was when did he do it on the Sabbath? Then did he do it? Now it's like, well, how did he do it? Now we got a process. All right, let me read this, Jason, and then I want you to read the last. So then they asked him,

What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes? Is that to your point? He answered, I've told you already, and you do not listen. So not only could they not see, they can't hear.

Why do you want to hear it again? Oh, and this line is so good. Do you want to become his disciples too? Then they hurled insults at him and said, you are this fellow's disciple. We are disciples of Moses. We know that God spoke to Moses, but for this fellow, we don't even know where he comes from.

And the man says, now that's remarkable. You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He's going back to the original. What is the common theme? Exactly. They had a theme, which is what I tried to address. It was the wrong theme. Wrong theme.

Yeah. Including this guy. Well, and also note that when they said that they followed Moses, they're disciples of Moses, and that God had spoken to Moses. Yeah. The irony is just go back one chapter in John 8, the I am passage. Yeah, exactly. Like,

At the burning bush, the one speaking to Moses was the one standing right there before the miracle. He could have said before Moses was born, I am. But he listens to the godly man who does his will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.

So he kind of has a bad theology, but he gets to the right point. To this they replied, you were steeped in sin at earth, Jays, to your point. How dare you lecture us? And then they threw him out. So I wanted to read that part, and now he's thrown out. Yeah. So then Jesus heard they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, do you believe in the Son of Man? I mean, so there's your next question. Yeah.

In our question. Well, it's a good one. It's a good one. I'm telling you, take these questions. There's something powerful. When you single out these questions, even out of context. When we get to the end of the book, we're just going to have those questions. You're like, do you believe in the Son of Man? I mean, I wouldn't have known how to respond to that, but I do think...

Context is important here. And in the Jewish mindset, most everyone there had read Daniel. They were familiar with that phrase. Zach, one of the blessings of mom being with us is that she loves dogs. And we have a lot of community, what I call compound dogs. There's four of them that are around quite frequently. But Rue, which is the first dog we got, she likes to lay in a chair right next to mom and

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I tried to think of an illustration, but I couldn't think of one. Like in our culture, where there was some famous prediction or phrase that everyone knows about, you know. But they immediately thought of that, God is sending a son of man. You know, Daniel 2, Daniel 7. And so I know that's where his mind went. But he said, who is he, sir? The man asked, which kind of assuming...

Yeah, I'm familiar, but who is it? Tell me so that I may believe in him. So that tells you he was familiar with the Daniel 2. In that culture, when they heard Son of Man, and maybe we should read Daniel 7. I think it's Daniel 7, what, 14? So then Jesus says, you have now seen him. In fact, he is the one speaking with you. Well, now we have a light bulb moment.

Because this liberator of Israel, this king that's coming, who's establishing an everlasting kingdom, the son of man, riding on the clouds. Oh, that's why I'm healed. Because you got to remember, everybody else was doing an investigation. But if you were the one blind and you didn't have a medical procedure, I don't think spit and mud would qualify for a...

anybody's medical procedure that actually could work even in the first this is like a home remedy that cured my blindness and i was blind from birth i mean come on now yeah i mean no would you even try it i mean he was so desperate but jay's think about the thing about what jesus told him think about the power of the moment he said he didn't say you're talking to him he said yeah you're

Now you've seen him. Well, this man hadn't seen anything ever. Well, exactly. And I was, the reason I brought up the social part of it was if you're so desperate and you're so miserable, because that would, I mean, there's people today that are born blind and you just realize how, when you read this story,

How thankful I am that I can say, I mean, can you imagine? But you're not worried about, oh, that's gross. You spit on the ground. Because most people, I would say most people, that if you had a problem and you came to me and was like, look, I know how to fix this.

I'm going to spit on the ground, make some mud, and I'm going to put it on your eye. Most people, they're not going to allow you to do that. I'm good. And now you wonder, did Jesus go through it? Because it doesn't say. It just said he did it. Was he giving them a play-by-play? When you're a beggar and you just think about his life. Yeah. Desperation is an understatement. It's like you said, that he had been ignored his whole life. Well, now you tie in, you know, the Luke, uh,

version of the Beatitudes and the, you know, blessed are the broken and the crushed and the poor in spirit and all this desperation. Well, blessed are you. Well, this is, he was in need. Yeah. And that was the problem with the Pharisees. They got it all figured out. They weren't in need, and that's why they couldn't even see it. They don't need anything. This is why he says, yeah.

I have told you already, but you would not listen. And that's the heart of the Pharisee. You see this ending in Mark 3, by the way, where Jesus also heals on the Sabbath. He heals the man with the withered hand, and he puts it in the cloak, and they're like, you can't do that on the Sabbath. And Jesus is like, basically, I am Lord of the Sabbath. But if you look at what... And then at the end of that passage, it talks about the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. And I think it has a lot to do with the heart of these guys right here is that they're...

They're seeing the obvious. And so this man who doesn't have an agenda is just like, he's going kind of where the evidence leads. And the Pharisees are like, Jesus is like, I'm telling you, you're not listening. And at the end of it, they said, are we blind? He said, yeah.

Basically, no, you actually see, and that's why you're guilty, because you do see, and you're putting the fingers in the ear, and you're saying, I'm not listening. So Jesus, their problem was not that they weren't receiving the correct information or revelation from who God was. The problem is that they were. They were receiving the revelation, and they were rejecting it, which I think is what ultimately is there, just say, we're not going to listen to truth. Yeah.

Which I think is the heart of the whole passage. I think it's more, I mean, they weren't listening to truth, but they also weren't thrilled by Jesus. I mean, they weren't thrilled by this. And so that shows that whatever you're into, which is thrilling you, you're, you know, the little g God of power or whatever idolatry is.

you want to make of this from the Pharisees. I mean, I have a little thing I want to do on this for the next podcast, because I know we're almost out of time, but because there's an interesting phrase, uh, I don't want to get into it because we're almost out of time. So I'll just, we'll do that next time about the Pharisees mindset, because there's an interesting passage. It's in Luke seven. It came to me now where it said the Pharisees didn't believe the people who had been baptized by John. They embraced, uh,

but the ones that weren't. He was talking about the Pharisees. He said, the Pharisees. He's like, oh no, they rejected it. Because they had just this whole movement. They had distanced themselves. All right. Because these weren't the right people. Yeah, they were threatened. They looked down to the Baptist and they're like, hey, the kingdom is at hand. They said, no. I think it goes back to what you said, one of y'all said it, the beggar

had nothing to lose and everything to gain. The Pharisees had nothing to gain and everything to lose in their mind, which is, I think, the way this ends is extremely powerful. I just want to read that last verse. Well, we need to read it. I left off on 38. Yeah, read the rest of the way. So when he says you have now seen him, in fact, he is the one speaking with you, the man said, now just look at where he's come on this one day.

Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him. Well, it's like the conversion came later. But the conversion came because he saw him and said, I believe. The Pharisees...

saw him and said, I don't believe, because Jesus' point is, you would not be condemned unless you saw. But you see, the problem is that you're not blind. You did see me, and you rejected me. That's why you're guilty. And to go on from that, because then Jesus said, which is very important, I think, for judgment I have come into this world because

so that the blind will see, and those who see will become blind. Which you think, well, I thought he didn't come in to condemn the world, but to save it. But part of that light shining is judgment, because it's revealing your heart. It's like this guy's heart said, oh, but then it's also judgment, because the Pharisee's heart said,

hearts were revealed and it wasn't God. It's back to choice. So some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, what are we blind to? And to Zach's point, Jesus said, if you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin. But now you claim you can see your guilt remains. Oh,

You're not going to be able to see without Jesus. That's so good, but we're out of time. Hey, you know what? We got through an entire chapter of the Bible in one podcast. We read a chapter in one podcast. We must revisit, though, at the next podcast. There's no telling how long we'll stay here. We'll see you next time on Unashamed.

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