Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
And now, The Low Post. Welcome to The Low Post podcast on a Friday morning where it has been a week, a month, I don't know, unlike any other.
that I can remember in the NBA to help us sort it out before I go through the litany of bad that is going on from Naples, Florida with Daryl Rivas in the background as always. Bobby Marks in a snazzy striped golf shirt. How are you? I am good. It is not one brand that you don't like. So I was fully aware before I got dressed for this podcast what shirt not to wear and it is not that. I didn't want to take grievance from you.
Thank you. We might grievance is actually a word that may come up later about the Players Association and vis-a-vis one Kyrie Irving. Just in the last 24 hours, Miles Bridges currently unsigned pleaded no contest to domestic violence in California. Baxter Holmes has that story.
Hillary Coutin, the former sports psychologist for the San Antonio Spurs, the alleged gold standard of sports and NBA team culture, sued the Spurs and Josh Primo after she alleges Josh Primo, whose agents deny this and whose lawyers deny this, exposed himself to her nine times during team therapy sessions and that when she reported it,
And the Spurs essentially stalled and stalled and stalled until they phased her out of the organization. Primo allegedly did this again to other victims in Minnesota recently and Las Vegas over Summer League. Again, these are all allegations allegedly, allegedly. And finally, they cut him. And we are now in for a very, very,
I don't know what the right word is, Bobby, but something process in the legal system. Tony Busby, her lawyer, who also represented the Deshaun Watson victims, has said that they want to pursue criminal charges against Josh Primo. And among the allegations, it hasn't gotten a lot of play in this lawsuit. I read the lawsuit last night. They're accusing the Spurs of, quote, turning a blind eye to indications that Primo was seeking sex rather than legitimate therapy.
That will be spelled out further, I would imagine, in litigation. And we are about to embark on this process of who knew what and when. The lawsuit only makes clear that Brian Wright, the current general manager of the Spurs, according to Ms. Couthan and her attorneys, knew about Primo's behavior. She reported it to him, allegedly, according to the lawsuit. He was the point person. It's unclear if anyone above him knew, including R.C. Buford and Greg Popovich.
And that is going to play out in its own way. But we have to start with Kyrie Irving. Kyrie Irving, boy, oh boy. Bobby, you had a 10-minute clip on YouTube 72 hours ago expressing, I think, disbelief that the league and or the Nets had not...
done anything to punish, I guess would be the word, Kyrie Irving. I mean, we all know the story by then. And in those 72 hours, holy cow, has a lot happened. He held what I would describe as a disastrous and bizarre press session with the Nets beat reporters where he
said that the documentary that he promoted and whether he likes it or not, he promoted it, had some, quote, unfortunate falsehoods in it, which is like an unfortunate falsehood is when I tell my wife that, oh, yeah, I already went to the grocery store, but I haven't actually gone to the grocery store yet. An unfortunate falsehood is now is not saying that the idea that six million Jews died in the Holocaust is a lie. Right.
And he then sparred with reporters, said that he knew the dictionary. For some reason, that was relevant and refused to apologize or disavow any of the specifics in the documentary. The Anti-Defamation League returned his money, which is, you know, it's bad when a charity is being like, yeah, well, we'd rather let your money on fire. And the Nets finally suspended him without pay for five games, a move that the union rejected.
By the way, Kyrie Irving is on the executive committee of the NBA players union, which is a gigantic issue that no one is talking about on its own. Why is he there? How is he there? How is that going to go forward? They may challenge this on, on grounds that it's unprecedented for a player to be punished for speech. We'll see what happens. I would, whatever. And, and, and, and then Kyrie Irving finally apologized last night. He used the word, sorry, in an Instagram post and,
He said that the documentary had false anti-Semitic statements. He takes full responsibility for his actions. And let's see what else is in here. There was narratives and language about the Jewish race and religion that were untrue and offensive. And he did not he had no intentions to disrespect any Jewish cultural history regarding the Holocaust or perpetuate any hate, which I guess.
I guess I'm reading that as an acknowledgement that the Holocaust happened in Kyrie Irving's opinion. I'm not sure if it addresses the fact that in the book that the movie is based on, the Holocaust is statistically minimized. I don't know where Kyrie Irving's stance on that is. And at some point, he's going to be asked point by point about what's in this thing. How are you feeling today, Bobby, about all of this? This is your former team. Yeah.
We don't need to go through the history of how they built this current iteration of the team and how it's failing and failed spectacularly. Just how are you feeling?
I probably feel the same as I did 72 hours ago. I mean, I look at it as I appreciate the apology from Kyrie Irving. I just think it's a little bit too late. I agree. Everybody deserves second chances, but I think we're on like chances third and fourth. I was driving home last night and I was reading the press release or not to press the article that was on ESPN.com and
What was in it was not in there was, you know, January of 2021 when he basically went on hiatus for two weeks, was caught at a party when the COVID protocols were in, you know, high alert was basically fined an substantial amount of money. And that really led to the James Harden trade. I mean, like that wasn't even in there. It's like another layer. It's a good point that I forgot about in, in talking about how the nets for a hot second,
had actually built a super team that appeared super and sort of indicating that for all the disaster that's happening now, this front office with Sean Marks at the helm of it had done what it set out to do, built a team that looked, for all intents and purposes, like an unbeatable dominant force. And I left out two things there. Number one, they traded for James Harden, not just because they were determined to get a third star, which they were, but because their second star was completely unreliable.
And that despite the fact that the on-court product was incredible for 16 games, it was hilariously predictable that the personalities involved would immolate this team. But please continue. I should have made those points more strongly the other day. Yeah. I mean, so that was one thing. I mean, I just look at the whole big picture of it. I mean...
I'm, I guess there's a lot of, for me, layers, you know, I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed. Certainly. I'm glad that the commissioner finally came out on Thursday. I mean, I didn't know what took so long there. I mean, I don't know if they were waiting for the nets to basically handle this themselves. Um,
Um, certainly disappointed from the players association standpoint, where here's a guy who's vice president of the union, um, disappointed with the players. And in general, I mean, we finally got a Robin Lopez retweet last night. I think he's the only player who is basically kind of endorsed, um, you know, that some type of discipline here, um,
I made it known on radio during the week, just like I think there's certainly a different set of standards here when how we critique or look at different situations here. I think if we're going to talk about racism and it's all across the board, it's for everything here. And I just look at the Brooklyn situation and I said it, I think Tuesday, like,
like one's enough is enough. Like here's a guy you, you basically, there's a court, there's a litany of things here. And here's a player who's a, he's going to be a free agent here. Obviously he's not part of your future or you would have signed them to an extension. Um, I understand it from Joe size perspective, like he's trying to educate him. I guess that was the word was used on, uh, on get up on, um, on Friday morning where like, he's trying to, you know, before they took this point, he's trying to educate him here. Um,
But I think the worst word, and I've dealt with it, and I understand people out there saying like, well, you know, it's easy for you to say because you're behind a mic and you write a column and you write. Like the worst word in the front office is desperation.
Like that is the worst word desperation. And I lived through it. I mean, I went through it, you know, we did a lot of desperate things in Brooklyn trying to save our jobs, you know, when things were, we're backed in the corner. And I look at this Brooklyn situation, what's going on there. I I'm happy they suspended him. Um,
But I do think there was a period of 72 hours where it was desperation, whether it be the Kyrie Irving situation, whether it be, you know, who knows what happens at head coach, what direction they go there here. But I'm at a phase or a point where,
just, just like wipe it clean here. Like what's the best for the organization is moving forward with that, without Kyrie Irving. And you'll take your lumps during the year. And that we'll certainly talk about Kevin Durant a little while here, but eventually like the experiment of these, you know, the two guys together, like,
It's failed. I mean, I agree. Hey, anyone would have signed those two guys in 2019 when they had cap space. Like, I'm not questioning that, but eventually it runs its course and you have to move on here. And I just feel like Brooklyn is kind of just hanging on. Hopefully that things will change. When I had Nick Friedel on a couple of days ago to discuss this, what I said was what Kyrie Irving says next is going to determine, if not everything, almost everything.
And I said, if he doesn't point by point disavow the hateful, vile, offensive, false stuff in this documentary, and even in his apology, by the way, he says, I agreed with and disagreed with some of the stuff in the documentary. So that you've got to elaborate on that at some point. If he doesn't disavow that stuff explicitly, I said, all possibilities are on the table to me.
up to and including the nets. I don't know if they would wave him, send him home. I think is more mechanically easy. I not maybe easy, but I, I said two days ago that his trade value is radioactive. I don't think anybody is touching them. I don't even think the Lakers would do it. I said, I, so I said, I don't, I just don't know how, I just don't know how you can introduce that at this point to your team. And, and now then he talked about,
And the first thing he said was this press gaggle that was just completely bizarre. And he did the opposite of disavow what was in the documentary. And then the net suspended him. If you told me today, then he apologized. He finally apologized on Instagram.
Why you can't do that with your mouth, I don't know. But he finally apologized on Instagram, which indicates to me he has at least some interest in saving his career. Because when that suspension came across, my first thought, your first thought, the first thought of many people who hit my phone was,
He may never play in the NBA again. This may be it. And that may be what he wants. He's acting in such a self-destructive way that maybe he wants this. And so the apology indicates to me that maybe we haven't seen the last of him. The desperation you speak of to salvage this team, the desperation that would lead you to reportedly be close 72 hours ago to hiring Emei Odoka coming off an internal scandal that cost him his Celtics job.
That hire hasn't happened yet, by the way. I think that's interesting. I think that's interesting. All that desperation would suggest that maybe we haven't seen the last of him, even on the Brooklyn Nets. I find it hard to imagine. I guess it's not hard to imagine. People want to win. Anything's hard to imagine. But this, even if you...
Even if you put on your coldest, iciest persona, all I care about is winning games. Even if you have it in you to compartmentalize to that degree,
winning games gets harder when every game is going to be a circus. Now, for as long as he's on this team, the t-shirts, the fans in the t-shirts are going to be there. The protests are going to be there. The questions are going to be asked to all of his teammates. I don't necessarily think it's super fair to ask like every single player in the NBA to weigh in on Kyrie Irving, but teammates, sure. Union members or your union executive committee members. Sure.
And I just, if you told me right now, we never see him play in the NBA again, I wouldn't be, I would certainly wouldn't be shocked. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be either. I mean, you know, when you work, when you work in a front office, you've got blinders on.
I mean, that's the reality of the situation. You have blinders on and you're worried about the now and not what the future is. Zach, at the end of the day, the best thing for the Nets would be to just bottom out here and just have a fire sale because here's your year. And I know that the Rockets have the right to swap with you this year. The Rockets are in the pole position right now at number one. And I don't see that changing. And that could change. You know, Brooklyn could have a top three pick. Oh, the Rockets, the Rockets.
The Rockets could have had Ben Simmons when they traded James Harden, skipping the middleman that was the Nets, or they could have wagered against the Nets. They chose to wager against the Nets. They chose against Ben Simmons. They chose to use the Nets essentially as like a middleman to fleece
And holy cow, does all of those way do all of those wagers look correct? I mean, they are sitting in pole position. They don't have to deal with the Ben Simmons situation. Ben Simmons is completely untradeable when you're talking about a fire sale. So, yeah, the Rockets are in are in good, good position, I guess. It's like you can't even celebrate being in good position when they were in a good position for this reason. But to your point, I think it's over. It's just over. It's over for this Nets team.
I don't see any way that it's salvageable. I don't see any way that they can build a championship contender from the ruins of whatever the hell this is. I don't even know if they can bring Kyrie Irving back on the team. Sean Marks is apparently speaking now as we're talking about this. I'm reading Nick Fidel's Twitter feed. Sean Marks says Kyrie's apology last night was a good first step, but the organization wants him to take some more steps, including meeting with Jewish leaders before playing for the Nets again.
Mark said the organization never considered releasing Kyrie. I mean, I would have considered releasing Kyrie, but again, that's easy for me to say. But that's great that the Nets want him to do more than type an Instagram apology, which is the absolute bare minimum that any human being could possibly do. I just think it's over. It's over, and that's it. I just don't understand. I would have a little bit more... I don't know what the word is. Like...
that if Kyrie Irving was under contract for three more years or if he had just signed an extension like Kevin Durant did a year ago, I get it. I get why you have invested $190 million. Zach, he's a free agent in July. This guy is not going to be here.
Like, I don't think so. I mean, Hey, I've seen crazier things. Maybe, maybe they feel like he's, they've got us resigning because they can't and there'll be, you know, there'll be under the, over the cap and it can't, I mean, but that's another story, but like, I just don't understand like the, the allure of, and like, like, why is everyone afraid of Kyrie Irving with the allure of Kyrie Irving here? And, and,
We'll see how it, we'll see how this plays out here. But you know, when, when the announced or the, I guess the announcement that Brooklyn was closed with EMA earlier in the week, you know, everyone was saying, well, look what he did in Boston, you know, with the plan. I said on TV, I said like,
There's no Marcus Smart or Jalen Brown or Robert Williams or Al Horford. Are they getting a whole all-defense level roster to come to Brooklyn with Imei Odoka? If Imei Odoka is even coming to Brooklyn, are they bringing like seven candidates for the all-defense team? Derek White, the greatest charge taker in the NBA, are they bringing him too? Because I look at Brooklyn. I mean, Joe Harris, he's a shell of himself, and he's still trying to work himself back. Seth Curry is coming off that ankle.
Who knows when we'll ever see TJ Warren. Royce O'Neal is your third best player. I mean, that's the reality right now. I mean, they had a bench lineup out there the other night against Chicago of Yuta Wadonobi. Yuta's playing well. He is. Yeah. I mean, David Duke. If Ben Simmons had 10% of Sumner's confidence going to the rim, he'd be playing better. Yeah. So, like, I just don't see a coach coming in here and all of a sudden fixing. I mean, the Simmons thing is...
That's another podcast in itself. I agree with you. I think it's over. I think it's time to basically start selling off what you can sell off right now. I think that's why we're going to talk about Durant because I think I agree with you and
But why is everyone so afraid of Kyrie Irving as you ask it? I think there's got to be two reasons. Number one, they've just sunk so much into this team that there's no going back for this front office and they don't, they're not sure that they will be the ones to execute the rebuild you're talking about, even though to their credit, again, they dug out faster and better than anyone could have reasonably expected of the deepest hole in the history of the NBA. And again,
Um, and the other reason is of course, Durant. And if you think Durant is still tethered to Kyrie Irving, if you still think Durant is a top five player in the NBA, which he has performed like this season, although it doesn't feel quite as impactful somehow watching the nets, maybe it's just because he's, he's being tainted with the just unpleasantness all around the team sort of unconsciously by me and others. Um,
Looks fine. He's a great player. Four years left on his deal. And I don't know that that's the case anymore. It's not like I've spoken to Kevin Durant, but I can tell you that
Around the nets, Kyrie Irving's completely checked out performance against the Bulls was very noticed and very disturbing to them, along with obviously the comments. And Kevin Durant's already asked for a trade. It already happened. And I said over the summer, the idea that by retracting that trade request, I saw it reported like this is a full four-year commitment by Kevin Durant to the team. You don't request a trade and then be like, you know what? Not only am I taking that back
Let's get married for life. I take it all back. Let's till death do us part. That was a joke. And he's already requested a trade. He already requested everybody get fired. I think that's where this is heading because, as you said, there's just nothing else to do. If this team is dead on arrival, if Ben Simmons is untradeable, if Kyrie Irving is untradeable, the only move you have is to get everything you can for the one person
of anything resembling stability on your team. And I think two things have changed since the summer. Number one, their leverage has hit rock bottom because of everything we're talking about. And number two, if they had interest then in only making a deal that kept them good because of all those picks out the door, because of Simmons, because of Kyrie or whatever, they had interest then in like, we can't just trade for picks. We got to get good players. We got to get a Jalen Brown. We got to get this. We got to get whoever, whatever.
I think now you pivot the other way and just say, we're done. The picks out the door are a sunk cost, just like we considered them a sunk cost when we got here. We didn't worry about the optics of giving Boston a top three, a top one pick. We didn't try to win 35 games to give the number eight pick because it's less embarrassing. We didn't care. We just moved on, pretended it didn't exist. I remember Kenny Atkins had said, it's the elephant of the room. We never talk about it. It's like, we don't even talk about it. He told me that.
And give us all the picks, all the swaps, all the young guys, just give us everything that we need to move forward. And I think that closes the door on some packages that were discussed over the summer and opens the door wider to teams who did not have a shot at Durant in the summer. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about that later.
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That Kyrie didn't make the top 75 all-time NBA list. Did you have a vote for that or no? No, I didn't. I did, and I didn't vote him on my top 75 all-time list. And my reasoning was simple. He was in the process of destroying the Brooklyn Nets franchise after...
Not destroying, but undermining the Boston Celtics franchise after stopping talking to his teammates in his last year in Cleveland and requesting a trade out of Cleveland, which is fine. That's his right. You want to leave Cleveland? He's not the first. He won't be the last to request a trade. Seven-time All-Star, three-time All-NBA, not a ton of All-NBA appearances.
I voted him all NBA two seasons ago, thought he deserved it. I don't remember what my ballot was the other years. 14,000 points, not a huge amount of points considering all the time he's missed. One championship, arguably the most consequential shot in the history of the NBA. And yet Cleveland did absolutely nothing before LeBron got there. The database of the Celtics and Nets being as good or better without Kyrie in the game, in the lineup, was kind of gathering steam toward the end there.
And now this, this disaster, this offensive thing, man, he didn't belong on that top 75 list. And I'll say this, like seven-time All-Star, three-time All-NBA with baggage, you go through it.
That 14,000 points, that's not like a guaranteed Hall of Fame resume. I know we're getting ahead of ourselves, but I've been thinking like if this is it for him, if he never plays again, what is his legacy in the NBA? It's really that shot. It's game five in the finals when he had 41 points. He was legitimately great next to LeBron James. Everything else is like, okay, he's an amazing dribbler.
He's an amazing finisher on the rim. He made some good commercials in a movie that I guess some people saw. I don't really know what it... I mean, it amounts to a lot. I don't know how much. We had a conversation at dinner on Thursday night. My 13-year-old asked me that question. Not top 75, but he said, Dad, Hall of Famer, right? And I said, I don't know. We're too close to it. I know, we are. We're just in the muck of it now. But yeah, but you laid it all out there because...
Besides the LeBron years, part two back in Cleveland, what he did before, Boston years, Brooklyn years, that body of work there is certainly suspect. As you said, though, he was on a Cleveland team that went to multiple finals, won a championship, hit the biggest shot, won the biggest shots in NBA history against probably one of the greatest teams ever.
At the time. And that story, you know, is probably for another day here, but it is an interesting conversation that we'll have whenever the day is that he's done playing. It could be now, could be in a month, could be in six months, could be in five years. As callous as it sounds to talk about the next domino and the one that I spent all night talking to people with front office, people, agents, whatever,
is Durant and the vultures are going to circle on Durant. Those vultures expect the nets to, to put on a strong face for a while, to not rush it, to, to, to posture probably honestly that no, we, he has four years left on his contract. Just like over the summer, he's got four years left. We control the situation. We're trying to win. We don't want to do this.
I would guess Durant doesn't want to just go out and do the trade request again because this is just all so ugly. I would guess that he sort of skulks, not skulks, but just sort of sits in the background, at least in this regard.
Then that's also December 15th and especially January 15th, a whole slew of players become tradable that are critical here. So I don't think this is going to be fast. I don't know that it will ever really happen, but I know that the whole league is ready now to re-engage on Durant. And like I said, I think the landscape has changed. So you're the CBA trade guru expert. I've got my list of teams. Some of them are duplicates from the summer.
You can start anywhere you want on the Durant trade landscape. Yeah. I mean, I think as you said, like, I don't think there would be a point where he does ask out. I think the schedule itself might just take care of that. I mean, you look at what I haven't even looked at the schedule, but yeah, here it is. Here's here it is. You've got Washington, Charlotte, when you can Charlotte with, you know, they're decimated Dallas, Knicks, Clippers, Lakers, sack, Portland, Memphis, Philly. It's not easy.
It's not an easy schedule here. So when you look at the landscape of the league right now, you've got 34% of the players that can't be traded. You mentioned December 15th, January 15th. That's that will certainly open up based on players who signed as free agents here. It's interesting. You have to, you go back to the teams that we've talked about during the summer, like Toronto, right?
Pascal Siakam's playing. Man, he's playing like an all-NBA player right now. He's playing like a first-team all-NBA player right now. So that was the name we've talked about. By the way, Scotty Barnes, they laugh you right off the phone now. Don't even, Bob. Don't even say the S word. Just call us when you're ready to not say the S word. I don't even think they would trade Siakam. I mean, that would be a tough bet. It's something you...
You know, like that, that wasn't it. That's not a shoe in here. Well, and, and the Raptors are one of my teams, obviously for obvious reasons, even if they're not going to include those guys, they still have all their picks and a bunch of salary. That's at least interesting and all the swaps and all that. So sure. Yeah. I mean, they'd take a call. I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, so Toronto, you're looking at, let's just say remove Sackham. You're looking at OG and Trent, right. And the picks. I mean, that's kind of like, that's, that's the,
In any of these Durant deals, though, Zach, I'm just thinking of this. You got to get point guard back, though, somewhere. I just look at there's not... And that's the problem with the Irving situation is that you don't have a...
Trey Jones in your waiting in your wings as your second, as your backup, your nice developmental piece, right? There's no, there's no point guard there. So that's why I'm looking. And I know that Toronto doesn't do that for you. If I'm doing, if I'm looking at Durant stuff, like I need something back, I need a point guard back here, but I mean, I need a, you know what? I need a drink. That's what, that's what I need. A drink more than a, more than a young point guard. I need a,
to go to the liquor store and get a goddamn crate of whatever my favorite drink is. That's what I need. How about we're only two weeks into the season and I've already felt like we already need the all-star break. What the hell are we talking about? Toronto. Oh, the point guard. Honestly, yeah, what you're saying makes sense. At this point, it's just I just need whatever helps me
recalibrate my team. And I don't know that I'm that concerned about it. What other teams that pick any team? I was going to say what other teams that maybe weren't, weren't in the, in the heat of it in the summer might get into it now, or maybe one of those teams that you think has an even better shot now. Well, I mean, I think Phoenix, I think Phoenix is, and not, not the, you know, certainly, you know, eight and, you know, can't be traded for, but you know, they're, I think they're working more from a position of strength and,
based on, you know, everyone, we all thought that, you know, based on what, what they, you know, they were going to stumble out of the gate based off that Dow series, certainly the Sarver situation, uh,
you know, everybody was not happy media day. And now they are, you know, six and one sec. Yeah. Second, third best team in the NBA. Um, you know, um, so I think Phoenix, they've got all these expiring contracts, you know, all the picks for all the picks, three swaps, you know, they could, they can get up to, uh, Durant's number without including bridges or Aiden or, you know, you mean you could, you're
You want to do that or wait, you wait until January 15th and say, this is what we have. But I think Phoenix would be certainly a team there. You know, it's interesting. I think your first, the first reaction some fans might have to Phoenix would be, well, we're six and one. We don't need to do anything.
And I think a smart team would actually think the opposite. We're six and one, but we're six and one, but your margin for error in the playoffs is so little. If we have that kind of opportunity with Chris Paul at age 37, you've got to consider it. If not execute it, the idea that they could do it without Aiton,
Or Bridges. And I'm not even sure the Nets... I don't think the Nets like Aiton, and I don't think they view him as a great piece that they could flip down the road. Bridges is playing out of his mind to start the season. The idea that they could do without including either of those guys is like... I mean, that's absolutely a no-brainer to me. But yeah, they'll get back into it. Yeah, I mean, we'll see where this Boston team goes, right? I mean, I think if they...
I mean, they'll be better than a 500 team. But if they feel like he is a missing piece, I would certainly think the Celtics revisit it. I would think Jalen Brown. I don't think that the Godfather gone. I don't think the Celtics even revisit it. To be honest with you. I think the Celtics just say we made the finals. Yeah. Jalen Brown is playing really well. We've just gone through our own organizational trauma. We're not doing this.
By the way, a quote from Kevin Durant at Shootaround today, Brian Lewis from the New York Post tweeted this just now. Durant, I'm not here to judge somebody or talk down on the life or how they feel their views. I just didn't like anything that went on. I felt like it was unnecessary. I felt like we could have just kept playing basketball and kept quiet as an organization.
I don't really know what that means. I mean, basically, we just wanted to sweep it away for Joe's side to basically pull Kyrie into an office and just reprimand him without anybody knowing. And then again, here we go for another quote. Our producer, Dan, is sending me this. This is Durant again.
According to Brian Lewis at the New York Post, this is the way the NBA is now. The media is so many outlets now and their stories hit pretty fast now. So that's where all the chaos is coming from. Everybody has an opinion on the situation and we're hearing it nonstop. The chaos is not coming from the media. The chaos is coming from inside the house. This is like when Durant said before the season, why are you guys going to keep asking me about my trade request? Because you requested a trade.
Because you're one of the 10 or 12 best players in the entire history of the sport. And when someone of your caliber with four years on their contract that they just signed
asked a to be traded and B for the higher ups on the team to be fired. I'm sorry to tell you that that's going to get more coverage than Nick Claxton's pick and roll defense and how that might fit with Ben Simmons. I'm sorry to tell you that the chaos has been completely self-created by Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant. And when he was there, James Harden by quitting on the team, but he's not there anymore. Like I,
There's just I don't know. I just all of this stuff. All these comments are like, can we just play basketball again? Can we just talk about basketball? Even Sean Marks today? Can we just talk about basketball? Sure. Your player just tweeted out a movie that denies the Holocaust. Sorry that for a week, that's kind of a big deal.
Yeah. I mean, we could have talked about basketball if he would have handled the press conference last Saturday the right way, or if maybe the next day would have come out and kind of apologize. All I want to do is talk about basketball. Yeah. Oh, I do too. I mean, I don't, this is not enjoyable. What were we talking about? The suns? Yeah. The sun's cool. The suns are really good.
Well, I mean, we're kind of going back to some of these. We're going back to New Orleans again, right? Oh, New Orleans. New Orleans was hesitant to trade Ingram the first time around, if not out and out a no on Ingram, which I said at the time, boy, I would.
I think I'd be tempted to pull the trigger on that. Now it's like, how about the Lakers pick looks like more valuable than Brandon Ingram. So how about we just give you all the picks, some young guys, some salary matching, which we have in spades and we have CJ McCollum, Brandon Ingram, Kevin Durant, Zion Williamson, and whatever else is left over. Yeah. That's 150 million bucks for four guys in a small market. That's going to have some tax issues down the road. But I mean, I don't,
If I'm new Orleans, you have to think about that. If the cost is just the picks and the swaps and a couple of young guys that are interesting and I don't have to give up BI, like,
Is my team the title favorite? Like immediately? I don't know. Did NBA still topsy-turvy right now? They're at the top of my list. Same with Memphis. Memphis? No. I mean, that's another team. Memphis has the Warriors pick top four protected. The Warriors are three and seven or three and six or whatever the hell they are now after another loss in Orlando last night where Steph Curry looked amazing and they still lost. Got the Warriors pick. Got all my own picks. Got swaps. Hey, you can't get Ja. Duh. You can't get Bain. You can't get Jaron Jackson Jr.,
You don't like that? Too bad. Here's everything we got to offer. If I'm Memphis, that makes me the championship favorite. Maybe I have to think about that. Yeah. I mean, here you go. Tyus Jones, Dylan Brooks, and Danny Green. Goodbye. Enjoy Brooklyn. Joe Johnson once said, it's not that bad here about Brooklyn. It's not that bad there. Enjoy Brooklyn.
enjoy i forgot about that they should just change that to their slogan i've said it before like things are so bad there that they should actually just make that their slogan to counteract the badness of it there is going to be repercussions what about the warriors we can't we oh my god draven's is actually trade eligible right because his extension is downward can't they trade don't don't who's who's that wiggins
Well, Wiggins can, uh, no, because they added years. They added, um, even though it's downward, they added the, the, uh, the extra years. So he's, you know, they really just have the young kids and green and Thompson and,
All that stuff. I don't that stuff. Well, they owe that pick though. And a bunch of these teams would have to amend picks that they owe. They'd have to get other teams to amend, eliminate protections. And those other teams would just be sitting there like, all right, what you're going to give us? What you're going to give us? I'm sure Daryl sitting in Philly thinking Tobias. Oh, stop. See, stop. They have no picks. They would, they have one pick to trade, right? But they have to amend like two other picks to get to one. I don't think that does anything for you. Oh, stop. Stop.
Can I give you, so I have a list of three teams. Go ahead. Or do you have another team you want to hit first? No, no, no. Go ahead. I have a list of three teams who probably couldn't have gotten in it in the summer that if I'm them because of where I am on my timetable and what I've got and they're changing needs, if this ever comes to fruition. And again, remember what I said earlier, it's going to be a while if ever, but I just, I don't see another endpoint that's realistic, honestly. Um,
My kind of favorite is, not favorite, but I will tell you this, they're going to call. First call I got to make is I got to call the Knicks. If I'm this team, then I'm going to lead a little suspense up to this. Got to call the Knicks and say, hey, I owe you a first round pick. It's like top 14 protected, top 12, top 10, top eight. We got to make it unprotected so I can trade all the rest of the picks. Three picks, three swaps.
Literally every other player on our team except the guy with a no trade clause come home to Washington, play for the Wizards, play with Bradley Beal. We don't care that we have no chance to win a championship immediately after trading all of this stuff for you, Kevin Durant, because we have Bradley Beal, you, us.
maybe Porzingis stays here, maybe not. We're going absolutely nowhere as a franchise anyway, so we might as well have some fun and give ourselves a shot at having a top five player for the next few years. Why not?
Yeah, why not? Exactly. Take Avdia, take Hachimura, take Johnny Davis who never plays, take Kispert, take Kyle Kuzma, take Kispert's bandana, take whatever, take his headband, take whatever you want. No, I want to keep Kuzma. Kuzma seems just like a delightful guy to have around. I want Kuzma around.
Well, you got all the money. I mean, Barton and all that group that will get you there. Goodbye. It's not that bad there. Goodbye. You'd have to call New York and, hey, by the way, we're going to get Kevin Durant. Wouldn't you mind amending that pick? What do they care? And then the Knicks would be like, wait a second. Wait a second. We have all the picks. We have a million picks. Our own picks. Hoopoo protected picks from nine other teams.
We didn't want to trade all that stuff, all of it for Donovan Mitchell. Can't trade Mitchell Robinson until January 15th. None of our veterans are really going to be exciting to the Nets. Like they're not going to look at Julius Randall. Oh, we can flip him for a couple of picks down the road. But hey, you want you want eight picks and four swaps and some salary down the line?
We got it. Why not? We got a little embarrassed by whiffing on Donovan Mitchell, even though there was division in our organization about whether that was good or bad, and maybe it was good. Donovan Mitchell's balling the hell out for Cleveland, which we're going to talk about shortly. Why not? I bet you Quentin Grimes would be available now. Oh, God.
Can they start Quentin Grimes when he comes back? Because their starting lineup stinks again. And I don't know that he would change that. But just like, let's try something else. Let's try something else. Yeah. I don't know about New York, though. I mean, I know they have if it wasn't it didn't say New York on the front and they didn't weren't across a bridge. They have everything. Right. I mean, that's basically they have everything to offer.
Do you have a Cinderella team? Not just any team. You have another team. I mean, I went through it. I was looking like Portland. There you go. You got my last Cinderella team. Talk me through Portland. Yeah. I mean, this is all probably, this is all after these restrictions are lifted here, but you know, and they would have to lift protection. Oh, Chicago top 14 first protected first for like the next six years. So they had to have to lift the protection off that. But if I'm looking at their roster, I mean, the shade and sharp off the board.
Does he, you know, is he off the board in any deals here? They're young prized rookie here and, you know, they've got salary fillers, but like, you know, Josh Hart, guys like that, you know, those rotational players. I, you know, I certainly wouldn't want to, you know, I would put Jeremy Grant deal. Sure. They played their equivalent positionally. That's a no brainer. So I'm, I got $20 million. I'm halfway to the salary. I need, I mean, grant, I mean, I mean, is this too much? Is Grant Hart and sharp too much?
I really do like Shaden Sharp. Yeah, I do too. That's a lot. And obviously we're implying that all three picks, three swaps, whatever is involved for Durant. I do think they would probably pull Simons off the table. Simons can't be traded until when? January 15th anyway? You have to consider that the problem with Nurkic, with putting Nurkic in is I have no center.
at all. Like I've drew you banks and small ball fives like Winslow and trend in Watford, who hasn't been playing this season. Do I need to get Claxton back? I mean, I find it hard to believe the nets are going to draw a Claxton line in the sand. Do I need to get, do I need to find another center somewhere? Probably. Do I care necessarily? That's a lot though. Sharp, sharp. I love, I like what I've seen from sharp so far. Grant,
Grant is you just say I'm getting Durant anyway, so I don't care. Hart is a good starting rotation player for them.
You have to think about it. I mean, look, you pay Damian Lillard all this money. He's 30, what, 32, something like that. He's going to be 36 by the end of this contract. He's making $60 million. So you're in for whatever the phrase is, a penny or a pound or a nickel or whatever the hell the phrase is. You're in for a lot. You might as well be in for a lot more. That was my other... Portland and Washington are my... Maybe didn't have the juice in the summer. And if I'm Durant, honestly...
Left the Warriors. Actually, don't people are hammering him for leaving the Warriors. I get why he left the Warriors as a human being. Like, I completely get it. Hitched his wagon to Kyrie, which has been a catastrophic mistake.
In an attempt to make a franchise his own, to win, quote unquote, his championship, even though he is a two-time finals MVP. I don't really, as he always says, I'm Kevin Durant. I don't think he needs any sort of validation, but I understand the human craving for, I want to shape something that's mine or go to a place that I can make mine.
If I'm him, that's all I care about. I don't care about weather. I don't care about geography. I don't care about market size. I don't care about anything. All I care about after this is put me in a place where I can win with people who are supportive and available and reliable and fun to be around. Well, he just said it. Hey, all he wants to do is play basketball. There you go. All right. Can we switch gears? Or was there another Nets thing you wanted to talk about before a sinkhole opens underneath the Barclays Center?
No. Honestly, if you told me that was if if producer Dan sent me a text right now, there's like a link to it. We've been like a sinkhole has been spotted next to the Barclays Center. I would be like, oh, it's another day for the Nets. I said that I wanted to cleanse the palate with something that wasn't this. And I think my original plan for this podcast was to talk about like five different Eastern Conference teams that are interesting. We'll get to that next week. But we're going to talk about one. Yeah, let's talk about one.
Because that team is 6-1, just beat Boston for the second time in the season in overtime in an absolute thrilling, everything that we do this job for kind of game. Huge shots, big-time shots, big-time blocks, a dunk to tie the game at the end of regulation, all of it. The Cleveland Cavaliers...
Fresh off trading the whole kit and caboodle for Donovan Mitchell have barely been able to play their starting five, 28 minutes for Garland, Levert, Mitchell, Mobley, Allen. Seventh in offense, third in defense, again, outplaying expectations on defense. Third in net rating behind only the Bucks and the Suns who are 13 and one combined. All of their big man combinations, Mobley, Allen, love Allen, love Mobley are good to very good.
Everybody is shooting over 40% from three. I mean, it's ridiculous. Dean Wade, Dean Wade, spot starter Dean Wade. The starting lineup with Dean Wade for Garland is plus 19 and 50 minutes, plus 23 per 100 possessions. Dean Wade is plus 65 for the season. That's a top 10 mark. Dean Wade for all your accounting needs. Dean Wade. Good things happen. What do I always say? Good things happen when Dean Wade is on the floor. They don't even have Ricky Rubio and the vibe.
the vibe is, is just, they look, they just look like, Oh, you thought we were playing for a couple of years from now. Watch us now. They look awesome. What has struck out to you about the, the calves? I, what it's, what struck me is, well, I know Garland, you know, for basically from the Toronto, you know, the whole season game and up until, you know, coming back for that, the Boston home game, um,
The knock on Mitchell was always all-star, but is he a top 25 player? Top 20 player? I mean, right now, he is playing at a high level. I think the thing that stuck out for me is that you don't have to be so reliant on Karis LeVert. You know what you're going to get. You're going to get that game in Boston last Friday where he goes for, what, 40-plus?
And then you're going to get the night, the next night or the two nights later when he's going to go over nine or four for 12. Like it's a nice piece to have. You're right. Dean Wade. I'm going to ask Kobe Altman. I want a Dean Wade jersey for my office. Like put that baby up here. Awesome. By the way,
incredible extension for the cabs to lock him up at six or seven million a year. He's just a good basketball player. Like I, I, people think I'm joking about him cause I have my little Dean Wade jingle and he's like the second D way that has played for the cabs and stuff. Um,
he's just a good, like good things happen when he's on the floor because he's good at everything. He's just a pretty good player at every facet of the game. Yeah. I mean, and you mentioned Rubio won't, you know, he's, he's not on the court. It'll be back eventually here. I just, there's just a pot. There's just like so much positivity coming out of there. Um, you know, you know, you, you, the Moby Allen combinations, you know, um,
But Mitchell has really taken his game, you know, to a different level. I mean, and there's still going to be nights when you're getting an 11 for 27. Like, you're still going to get that here. But they fight and they compete and they're in every game. And that's all you could ask. Mitchell is averaging 31 points on 48% shooting 44 from 350 percent, 52 percent from two. I think he's played.
People will say this isn't a high bar and it's not. I think he's played the best defense early that I've seen him play probably since his rookie year. There were a couple possessions in that Boston game, the recent one where he had to guard Tatum on switches because they were going after him. He denied an entry pass, forced a miss, like was physically bodying him up.
This is by far the best defense Levert has played. I've never seen him defend at this level. And they're asking him in games like this to defend. He defended Tatum for some of that game and Mobley defended Jalen Brown for a lot of that game because Mobley is that versatile. And Karis Levert held up like he held up. He played pretty well. He's handsy. He was feisty.
He's averaging six assists a game, which a lot of that was because Garland's out, but it's nice to see him sort of engage it more of a facilitator. And one of my favorite stat of the season, talk about unsustainable. He's shooting 48% from three and 21% from two. That's like, that's just, it's a little strange.
Yeah. I mean, the, the, the ver made a play at the end of, I think it was the end of the Friday night game last week here. Like there was two, like all NBA type defensive plays that, you know, it was, it was a steel and then a three to, to tie the game here. But yeah,
I mean, Kevin, you're going to get your, you know, your good Kevin love games too. I mean, that's the, you know, it's crazy. Like it's amazing how this league works. Zach, like three years ago or two years ago, we were talking about Kevin love, right? Like buyout guy. He was outwardly miserable. Yep. Miserable. Remember he chucked the inbounds pass and cost them a game in Toronto. Remember when he was so angry that Sexton was not passing him the ball that he stood in the lane in Philadelphia for like nine seconds and ran
raised his hands so that the refs would see that he was committing a three second violation. He committed a three second violation out of protest. I had never seen that before. I've said it before for him to be happy and productive in Cleveland on a good team in 2022, 23,
Is one of the best and most unlikely stories in the NBA. Yeah. I mean, I didn't think it would happen. I mean, I thought he was going to be the next guy that was going to be sent away and we were never going to hear about. And he'd be, you know, he would be signing like the, for like Blake Griffin and LaMarcus Aldridge, you know, for the minimum again here, but yeah,
He's accepted his role and he knows his role. But this team is, I think this is sustainable. I mean, of course you got to stay healthy here. And as we said, like you only had, we've only gotten Garland for two games. Like that's, that's the beauty of this team. He's good, man. I love Garland. I love Garland offensively. The fit has been absolutely seamless offensively.
defensively, you haven't felt this kind of lack of size on the perimeter that, that everyone kind of feared is their undoing against the best, best teams. Everyone thought they would be pretty good. Although I underestimated them. I picked them like seventh in the East. And I think they're going to be better than that in part, because I kind of out of deference to Brooklyn gave Brooklyn a top six, but not top three seed Miami. I gave a top six seat out of deference to their track record. They always seem to prove people wrong. They're kind of up or down.
Even Philly, four and five, Harden's out for a month. We haven't talked about that. It's going to be really interesting, by the way, to see how Philly plays without Harden because they'll probably play faster with a little more oomph, a little more zip, a little more maxi, a little more Harris, who's just a spot-up guy now. It's going to be interesting to see sort of how they play
And if the verve and sort of spirit of the team gets a little feistier without Harden, I don't mean that as a slight on Harden. He just wants to walk the ball up and play Harden ball, which is super effective against
I just, it's, it's just going to be interesting to see how they look. I think you're going to see, you know, I know it was only a preseason game, but the, the preseason game against Brooklyn, I think it was the first game of the year when you had basically a full dose of, of, of Tyrese Maxey. I think that's probably how you are going to see. Yeah. They're going to play fast. You're basically going to give him the keys, you know, as far as to do whatever he wants. And, and,
You know, that's what my expectation is here is that he's kind of played a little bit passive with Harden. You get him beat back eventually. I mean, you'll get him back. And then you get, you know, I mean, you're going to have to get more from Tobias than just a complimentary player. Melton's been a great fit there. Using him as like a screener and a roller for Harden. That's been interesting. Let's go back to Cleveland. My favorite possession of that Cavs-Celtics game the other day, two days ago, feels like nine years ago.
They were, I think, up one with about 40 seconds left in the game. And Mitchell was cooking. Mitchell hit like two step back threes. It was Mitchell's game. Garland brought the ball up. This is one of those things that just makes you feel like, all right, seven games in, but the spirit of this team is right. Garland brought the ball up and sought Mitchell out. It's like, you're cooking. I'm the incumbent all-star guard. I don't care. We share this team. Right now, you're rolling. Here you go. Kicks the ball to Mitchell on the right wing.
The defense kind of loads toward Mitchell, including Garland's guy kind of sits not quite at the nail as Garland fades to the left wing, but close. And I expected Mitchell because he's cooking to just say, I don't care how many how you load up on me. I'm cooking. I'm Donovan Mitchell. I was brought here for this for this shot for this moment. I just made a bunch of these. He kicked the ball over to Garland.
Instead and Garland shot, I think it missed and Levert came in and stole an offensive rebound out of Al Horford's hands like a gritty, tough play. I loved everything about that possession. That possession just sings out.
This team feels really good about itself and for now is unselfish, supportive of each other, caring about the right stuff. I loved it. And to your point, like there are not any red flags that suggest this is totally unsustainable. I mean, their three-point shooting is going to fall off a little bit. They're shooting like 42%. Wade is shooting 56% from three. I mentioned Levert. And opponents are only shooting like
They have the fifth lowest, I think, opponent three-point percentage. But they're a good defensive team. I don't think that's going to skyrocket. I think this is just a good team that's going to be better than I thought they were. I think it's an awesome story how they have rebuilt themselves out of the LeBron era, out of what looked like not a great situation. In the Mitchell trade, I loved it at the time for them. It looks great.
Yeah, I mean, them and Toronto are my two favorite teams to watch. I love watching Toronto. What about Toronto today? They were huge last year, and they're even huger now with this Coloco kid who just blots out the sun. They put Scottie at point guard with Van Vliet out. I mean, come on. They played a lineup the other day that was Trent,
Siakam as the two guard, basically. It doesn't even matter. Trent, Siakam, Boucher, Achua, Coloco. You could argue Boucher, Achua, and Coloco are all centers. I understand Boucher is too skinny and Achua is like 6'8". That's just crazy time. And it works. No one plays like Toronto. And Toronto is good. And Scottie Barnes...
Look, the numbers aren't going to jump off the page. He's averaging like 60 in a game. It's taking a little too many, like 21 foot long twos. And I don't even care because he's starting to stretch his jumper. He's starting to stretch his game. That kid is going to be a many time all-star in the NBA.
Yeah. I mean, you look at their depth charts tilted. I mean, it's tilted like one way and you would say like, well, there's no backup point guard. There's no backup too, but it doesn't matter because how he's using all these guys, they're all basically interchangeable. Siakam's the backup point guard. If Malachi Flynn or Banton Delano Banton don't play Siakam or Barnes becomes the backup point guard. That said, man, if they just ever got their hands on, just pick a
Pick a good stabilizer. It's like a Tyus Jones or a Monte Morris, like a super high level backup point guard. I know Monte Morris is starting for the Zards. That would help them. But yeah, they're they're they're
wildly up and down but when they're rolling like they they played the hawks earlier this week at home and they just ran atlanta off those steal after i had this stat today they're averaging 10.8 steals a game no team has averaged more than 10 and a half since the 1999 sixers they're averaging 26 fast break points 26 number two in the league is at 18 it's just ridiculous how they play it's ridiculous
It is. I mean, it they'll be in the thick of it. They'll be in the thick of this top six in the, in the East. Oh, I had them as a lock for top six and there are nights where their offense looks, looks bad. It looks not bad. Just like if you make them play in the half court, it's a, it's a slow down, ugly game for them somewhat by design, but still sometimes ugly and unproductive, but yeah, they're good, man. They're good. But Cleveland that went against Boston for two hours or however long it took me to watch that game.
It was just so nice to blot all this other stuff out and watch an awesome basketball game between two awesome teams. Yeah. I mean, in, I mean, it is nice, you know, I mean, even the other night we saw New Orleans Lakers. That was a fun game, fun game to watch. Right. Just to stick. I mean, talk about a team, Matt Ryan. I mean, you think the Lakers have sent Brooklyn to like a, like a fruit basket. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, look,
Russ off the bench, something a lot of us have been calling for for a long time. It looks a lot better than Russ in the starting five. I saw Russ, AD, and LeBron have played single-digit minutes together as a trio the last couple games. That's probably the right formula. And
Those two top guys are still really good. Like they shouldn't be as bad as they were, despite the fact that they still can't shoot. I mean, nobody on the team can make a three point shot still. Yeah, that's it'll be interesting to see how they play this weekend. I'm kind of excited to have them normal and stable for a little bit. Bobby Marks, what are you working on? Anything we should be on the lookout for?
Oh, well, I've been, you know, the windy Tuesday calm, which I really enjoy kind of, I guess, being a like a, I guess, guest calmest weekly. We wrote about the lot warriors tax situation and maybe a proposal. Maybe you give a little bit of reprieve last week and which will probably get shot down and we'll figure out what we're going to write for Tuesday. Maybe the word desperation and how it's a dangerous word.
Yeah, that's Wendy's new column. It's kind of like a hoop collective meets traditional column thing. I'm liking it. I'm liking it. Obviously, you can listen to the hoop collective usually Tuesdays and Fridays wherever you get your podcast. Look at me. I'm just reading ads for other people's podcasts. Yeah, we've got it. And then we also got a Victor and Scoot little trade guide coming out on November 14th. So we're going to put the contenders and the wild cards in there as far as what teams are looking like 15, 20 games in.
Boy, those Vegas games when it was Wimbanyama Mania.
Feels like a long time ago. It sure does. The biggest story in the NBA was it was a French kid who's going to be incredible. And now it's now it's not. So Bobby Marks, invaluable to all of us. I can't even people would would be shocked to know how often I text you cap related questions. And you've always been so helpful. It's such a delight to talk to you. Thank you for wearing an appropriate shirt today and and have a good weekend down in sunny Florida. Thanks, Dan.