McMenamin and Givony
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And now, The Low Post. Welcome to The Low Post podcast on a Monday morning where you thought we were done with them. You thought we could leave them in the rearview mirror. You thought the L word. We didn't need to talk about the L word anymore. Two and ten. No trade could even vault them into mediocrity. Should they trade Anthony Davis? What about LeBron? Should they trade LeBron? Is LeBron going to leave when Bronny comes in the league? It's over.

Well, well, well, just what he thought it was safe to go back in the water. The Los Angeles Lakers are eight and ten and they're eight and two in their last 10 games. They're up to wealth in the Western, maybe 11th, actually, in the Western Conference, but only three and a half games out of fourth or fifth. They have the third best offense in the NBA.

In that eight and two stretch, that was obviously their weak link. They're up to a robust 22nd in points per possession for the season. Hurrah, hurrah. That's an Orlando Magic level offensive efficiency. They're still 10th in defense. That is held strong. And I said two things before the season, Dave McMenamin. First of all, how are you, Dave McMenamin?

Zach, I'm doing well. I'm feeling the holiday spirit coming upon us, and it's much more enjoyable to cover a team with the shred of hope than a team that is hanging out at 2 and 10. Shred of hope. I said two things over and over again before this season. Number one,

All the noise about Russ, bad fit, supporting cast, can't shoot, too small. None of it matters if LeBron and Anthony Davis are not gods. The whole thing depends on them being gods. If they're the 7th and the 20th best players in the NBA, forget about it. It's over. If they're the...

fifth and eighth best players in the NBA. You got something going on. No matter what the rest of the noise is, you got something going on. And then I said, all summer, all fall, get ready for the Anthony Davis vengeance season. It's coming. And boy, oh boy, I took notes. I took notes at who mocked me. I have the tweets saved. Oh, Zach Lowe, Anthony Davis fell down again, out for another two games. Vengeance season, huh? Well, here we are.

Anthony Davis, since November 12th, is averaging 35 points per game. He leads the league in rebounding. He is shooting 65% from the floor in that stretch, 46% on threes. He just hung 55, a double nickel, on the hapless pink-clad Washington Wizards. And boy, oh boy, this is a vengeance season, and they're creeping up the standings.

The Pacers are creeping down the standings. The Bulls are pratfalling down the standings. And so life is getting a little more interesting, Dave McMenamin. But let's have a caveat. Should we have a caveat real fast? Yes, we shall. Let me bust out my Grinch. The eight wins in this stretch for the Lakers have come against Brooklyn without Kyrie and Ben Simmons, Detroit without Cade Cunningham,

A trifecta against the Spurs who are going all out for Wemba and Yama. Including one of those games against the Spurs where Sochan and Pirtle were both playing good games and all of a sudden came up with mysterious quad injuries and didn't finish the game. The old quad. The old quad. The old quad. Portland without Damian Lillard and Josh Hart. The Wizards and Bradley Beal left the game like two minutes into the game.

And of course the bucks on Friday when Anthony Davis had 41, that was a monster win against the full strength bucks. Chris Middleton was back. That was a great, great win. So you can read this any way you want. If you're a Lakers hater, you can laugh at this entire idea that there's been a Renaissance. You can laugh it all off. Look at the schedule. Schedule's about to get even, even tougher, much tougher. December's brutal. They play every other day on the road. A lot. It's brutal. Or you can actually watch the games and think, Hmm,

Yeah, the schedule is the schedule, but Anthony Davis looks pretty good. Russ, Russ off the bench has been, I will say, acceptable. They have seemed to figure out some things about their rotation and how it should work. For instance, the Russ Anthony Davis lineups without LeBron. Those are a net positive on the season. Now, the LeBron Anthony Davis lineups without Russ. Those are a net positive for the season now.

All both of those types trending in the right direction. The big three is still kind of hit or miss. Sometimes I only play six, seven minutes in a game together, so it doesn't really matter. The Russ Anthony Davis pick and roll is becoming a legitimate weapon, and we can talk about the numbers behind that. I think the eye test suggests that

This isn't just a schedule fluke. I don't know that I'm buying like eight and two. Suddenly they're a juggernaut, but something real is happening here. And the last thing before I turn it over to you, Dave, is you look at their offensive numbers.

There's nothing really that screams fluke in any of their offensive numbers. They were already really good at getting to the line and limiting turnovers. They've just gotten better at both of those things in the last 10 games. Their three-point shooting has bumped up, but it's not been like absurd. They're shooting 37% on threes in their last 10 games, 33% for the season. 37% is not like ridiculous. It's not some crazy outlier number. Now, Lonnie Walker can't miss lately. Maybe that happens.

steps back a little bit, but they're still last in three-point attempts in that stretch. They're still first in rim attempts in that stretch. Their mid-range shooting, that's increased from 39% for the season to 42% in the last 10 games. Again, like not ridiculous. They're sort of doubling down on their strengths and just refining things, getting a little better at everything. Like I don't think anything, I don't think they have the third best offense in the NBA, but nothing about this surge

Looks completely fluky. So you're around the team all the time. How do they feel about this? There's a surge of confidence with this group, and it starts with the demeanor and approach that Anthony Davis is bringing to the court. And then I'd say the same type of consistency coming from Darvin Ham

And LeBron, quite frankly, as the leaders of this team. And we know that LeBron is someone who can kind of wear his emotions on his sleeve at times. But starting with him going out of the lineup with the groin injury, he became more engaged with this group.

more vocal on the bench, more vocal in film sessions, more encouraging of teammates in their individual workouts and practices, those type of things. And he carries such a presence to him that people feel how he's feeling. And he has made an adjustment in terms of how he is bringing energy to this group. They're feeding off it. Once he's come back to the lineup, he's playing much better. His three-point

shot is starting to fall an acceptable rate when it was dismal his first, you know, 11 games of the season or so before he had that groin injury. And,

They are cutting out, as Darvin Ham likes to term them, self-inflicted wounds. They're not turning the ball over as much, which is not putting them in compromised positions when it comes to transition defense and allowing teams to have three-on-two and four-on-three fast breaks, shoving down their throats every other possession. And then just someone else's demeanor who has felt on the court, I would say, is Russell Westbrook.

is playing with a joy. He's playing with some excitement and certainly playing with some pace. That is something that Russ has been asking for ever since he got here. Didn't quite ever find that rhythm last year with last year's team. This year, he has started to not only take the ball and run with it in the second unit, but find guys who now buy into him as that guy. Thomas Bryant, his entire team,

second Laker experience this time around, he's owing his success to Russell Westbrook because Russell Westbrook is looking for him. Those things matter because now Russell Westbrook has an ally in the locker room that's going to lift him up when, you know, the leaders get together and have these accountability conversations. Well, there's some people on Russ's side as well as those other guys' side when they start to have the hard conversations.

Hopefully there's no sides. Hopefully we can get out of sides. But man, you think back to summer league snub when LeBron said hi to everybody, probably including whatever mascot was running around summer league and not Russ.

to the Russ just obvious discontent with coming off the bench. The whole idea in preseason of coming off the bench, blaming his, what was it? Was it a quad? Was it a hamstring? I can't remember what it was. Some leg injury. It was hamstring. Yeah. On, on, well, my, my warmup routine that I've had for 15 years was disrupted. And that was an obvious passive aggressive shot at Darvin ham. And the idea of him coming off the bench, you have to give Russ credit. Now, maybe he saw the writing on the wall.

that this was that Darvin Ham was not going to yield. Maybe he saw that the whole league was watching and that his career was entering a phase of uncertainty if he didn't buy in, but he's bought in off the bench. He's averaging 15 and eight yards.

on 42% shooting, 34% on threes. Not great. Still too many turnovers. But 42 and 34 is good enough. It's good enough. It's not damaging. And the eight assists, he's passing really, really well. Really well. And they found this rotation where

He comes in and LeBron goes out and you have like some Russ AD minutes and then AD goes out and the Gabriel Bryant front court comes in. And so you have some Russ solo minutes and you may not even cycle back LeBron and Russ together for the entire first half of the game if things are going well. So you've minimized the overlap between Russ and LeBron in a way that's working for everybody, including here's this. Here's a stat. I looked this up today because I was watching their Wizards game and

And Russ and AD were just tearing the Wizards apart. Now, the Wizards are not. There's no great shakes. But Russ and AD were tearing them apart on that little angle wing pick and roll where it's almost sometimes like a post up into a pick and roll. LeBron and AD do this all the time. I call it the snug pick and roll. They were doing it against the Bucks. And Jeff Van Gundy was talking about during the game.

Over and over again. And the Lakers have been very smart about using that play, setting low screens for Russ, like setting screens at the foul line for Russ.

And other little gambits that make it hard for defenses to just go under the screen on Russ, which is what they want to do. And AD is really good at kind of rolling in to Russ's defender so that if he tries to go under, he just kind of shoves them further and further into the paint. And it becomes impossible for him to meet Russ on the other end since November 12th when this streak started.

Russ and AD have run 32 pick and rolls per 100 possessions. That's double, double the frequency per possession from before November 12th. Now, obviously, LeBron being out for part of that impacted that, but it's really it's continued and it's way higher than it was like 18, 19, 20 possessions.

last season. And those plays have been really productive for them. And Russ's post-ups have been like hilariously productive. They're averaging 1.4 points per possession when he shoots out of a post-up or passes to somebody and that guy shoots. That's like, it's not pretty. I don't ever think it's going to be a great fit between the three of them. The Lakers clearly don't think that because they only play eight, nine, 10 minutes together.

But you got to give credit. I've been really hard on Russell over the years. Like he's bought in and his passing has been sensational. It's really been special. And you talk about Anthony Davis being the guy that is lifting this team out of the doldrums. Russell Westbrook, I believe the numbers around 2.6 assists per game are to Anthony Davis. So he is directly helping the guy that is turning this thing around.

How smart is that? Right. That that is recognizing what you have to work with here and that's creating value out of the roster that exists. And if you're Russell Westbrook, that's your best case to try to make it to the end of the season and play out the rest of this contract. And you mentioned pace. They're second in the league in pace. Only Indiana has played faster than them.

And that's not how LeBron has played the majority of his career. And they're way faster when Russ is on the floor. Their pace with Russ on the floor is astronomical. And their pace when he's on the bench is fast, but not crazy. But even so, that's LeBron kind of seeding something.

To the to the structure of the team, because he has never loved playing turbo, turbo, turbo all the time. And they're playing fast when he's on the floor. And they've done this in the last week, too. They're starting to play around with the zone defense. And one of the benefits of the zone, other than it hides all your bad, slow, slow, ground bound, small, tiny defenders, is that when you get a rebound and push, all the matchups are kind of scrambled. Everyone's not.

attached to the right guy and you can run off that and they're running. I was actually wanting to ask you like what, because if you look at the numbers, they didn't play any zone until like two, three weeks ago and now they're busting it out. I think that's kind of, it's, it's kind of working. I, the numbers aren't great, but it's, it's a little tool for them. Yeah. So they've used it a lot in the first half against Washington and obviously lost in the shuffle of the excitement of the double nickel from Anthony Davis. We had more pressing things to ask Darvin ham about, but to me, the question is,

had we got around to was how much is that you started to expand the playbook because Darvin was pretty open about the fact that he was not trying to put too much on their plate as

as he got through the first month or so of just figuring out a rotation and figuring out some sort of cohesion with what he wants them to do and how much the wizards are not a good outside shooting team and playing zone you know you're kind of asking teams to launch it from there you almost wonder why teams don't play more zone against the lakers um to that to that point

Right. And to be honest, last year, and they weren't a very good three-point shooting team last year, you did see more teams playing zone against them. I haven't seen it a ton this year, but it's a good point. And look, I can hear the eye rolling from the fans of the other 29 teams. Oh, my God. Another podcast about a below 500 Lakers team. No one's running away with the West. The Suns are 16-7. They're awesome.

The best teams are not super scared of Phoenix. The Pelicans are number two in the West. They look... I mean, Zion...

A brief New Orleans Pelicans detour right now. McCollum, Ingram, Zion have like not even played that much together and they're 15 and eight and Zion. I had Andrew Lopez on a few weeks ago and I, and I said to him, I feel like they just kind of need to run more of the offense through Zion. Like it's a little too hard. There are a few too many like tough CJ McCollum and Brandon Ingram jumpers. When you have this, this,

Like Lawrence Taylor, Bo Jackson, Charles Barkley combination on the floor. And he said, just watch. The Zion pick and rolls are about to go up. The post-ups are about to go up.

I mean, that guy, if he can stay healthy, is going to enter that pantheon of guys who, when you scout them for a seven-game series and then have to deal with them for a seven-game series, is just going to be hell. Just hell on wheels to deal with. They look really, really good. Denver, every time you think they're getting it together, they kind of take a couple of bad losses. They lost in New Orleans in the Jose Alvarado bonanza on Sunday. I mean, look...

Roll your eyes. I can tell you executives from all the teams we just talked about and all the other teams in the Western Conference, when they see Anthony Davis playing like this, when they see him running some inverted pick and rolls in transition, when they see him hitting little floaters in isolations and looking smooth again, when they see him playing defense like this, and we should talk about that, his defense has been special all season long. You think they're rolling their eyes at the Lakers? Because I'll tell you right now, they're not.

If nobody, nobody, even if you're favored against them, even if you think their supporting cast stinks, even if you think their supporting cast can't shoot and it's three little guards around LeBron and AD and it's too small, even if they don't make a trade between now and then. And we'll talk about that too. This Anthony Davis, even with this LeBron James, who's older, shooting more threes, maybe not quite as fearsome, at least still pretty goddamn fearsome.

Dave, you, I mean, you see these guys, when people see LeBron at the rim on defense, you saw, there were like three instances just last night in Washington where there was a fast break and LeBron's near the rim and oh my God, I got to pass it out. I don't want to even touch this guy. This Anthony Davis and this LeBron James, nobody is excited to play them in the playoffs. So you can roll your eyes all you want. The league is watching the Lakers now. And at the very least, even the skeptics, even the skeptics are like, Hmm,

I got to kind of start paying attention to what's going on here because this is getting interesting. And A.D., you just can't say enough. The numbers are just are just crazy. I mean, is he and I mentioned the fluidity with the ball. Has he gotten has he gotten healthier? Has he gotten more confident? Is he is it just that he got to play without LeBron? Like what what happened?

All of the above. He did get healthier. His lower back was barking at him from the preseason on to the start of the year. He did have to miss one game, I think five or six games into it. And it was more egg in his face with five more mentions on your Twitter timeline because he was the guy who said, I want to play all 82, right? That was his goal for the season. And there goes that goal at the window after just a handful of games.

But there's been a shift, and it began, obviously, in the offseason. He was very intentional about getting his body into a better place to be able to withstand what the NBA schedule asks of you. But there's also a...

direction in which he's playing where it's not settling. Look over these nine games. He's shooting 45% from three, but he's only taken 11 threes in those nine games. He's taking 91 free throws. And that is, there are open looks he's getting from the perimeter, but instead he's putting it on the floor, compromising the defense, drawing contact. And then once he gets to the free throw line, making his shots, 88% over the stretch. And to me,

That is just showing seriousness about the task at hand because it is a concentration thing. Anthony Davis' shot is good enough to be making these shots, but you have to put yourself in the right mental space, and he certainly is. It's a...

dominant type of mentality where he is playing with a relentless energy of attacking the rim. And it really opens up so much for the rest of the team. And I think not only is LeBron and Anthony Davis's play right now, a reminder to the rest of the league that watch out for the Lakers in the West, but it's a reminder to the corporate offices in El Segundo, California that,

where the Lakers front office make the decisions about this team's future, that there is still a championship core in place with these guys. And the words of Dr. Jerry Buss, they still echo through the Lakers organization and his standpoint is,

over the many, many teams he presided over was if this team is a conference finalist and there's a marginal trade you can make that involves some risk, perhaps involves taking on some more money, perhaps involves

expending future assets to do so you do it because if you view your group as a potential conference finalist it's worth it to go a little bit more in because it's all about trying to win right so if you're like if you review them as a conference finalist then that little push over the edge can make them up in the nba finals and once you're there anything can happen and right now

LeBron and Anthony Davis looking like that. They look like the best duo in the league. So why not say over the, over nine games, Tatum and Brown, it's still Tatum and Brown. Anthony Davis is playing 35 and 16. I guess LeBron, you gotta, you gotta see, I mean, first of all, it's only been like six games with LeBron and AD probably. Right. So I got to see it first for a little bit longer than this. Yeah.

So we learn something every 10 games, right? Like every 10 games, the league shifts a little bit. And I mentioned, okay, the Pacers, everyone's like, oh, the Pacers is going to be a playoff team. Well, the Pacers have played the easiest schedule in the entire league and they're down to one game over 500. They can get to sixth or seventh worst record in the NBA pretty easily if they want to. I mentioned them because as you wrote last week, the endless trade rumors, the bulls have gone from.

This isn't going that great to full on just crisis. Like this is a crisis in Chicago. Nine and 14 is a crisis. I mentioned that because of the DeRozan Vucevic stuff that's never going to go away with the Lakers. And with the Lakers obviously have surged in those last 10 games. And so everything sort of can flip in that span. What's going to happen in the next 10 games is the Lakers schedule is going to be really tough and we're going to learn more about them than we know today.

The Warriors seem to have found their footing at 13 and 11. Are we going to now? We just talked about how the top of the West is a little bit wonky, right? With the Warriors playing the way they are, the Clippers, who are now on the verge of honestly taking over the Nets purchase, like the greatest theoretical team that ever existed in the NBA. Well, they're about to be a little bit less theoretical because Kawhi and Paul George are coming back.

Can we see it? My God, as someone who picked them to make the finals, I feel like such a goddamn sucker. Can we see it for 10 games? Can we see it? Can we see it? I don't like a month, a month. Forget a month. A month is like an eternity. Can we see it for 10 games? And then if we do, and if they go eight and two and Kawhi looks like 90% of Kawhi, the West may feel a little bit more settled.

at the top than it does today. But those are both big, big ifs. And we'll see what we learn about the Lakers and everyone else in the West over the next 10 games, just as the landscape changed. Larger point, you mentioned the C word, championship, conference finals. As jumbled as the West is, I can't conclude. I'm sure LeBron and AD think that because that's what they should think.

I can't get there yet, given how easy the schedule is and given how bad they looked in starting two and 10, I can't just wipe away two and 10 as if it didn't exist and say, this is now the team. I can't quite get there. Um,

And that brings us to the trade stuff. So you mentioned the front office. Let me just play devil's advocate there, though. You are still allowed. Satan's advocate. Lucifer. Lucifer's advocate. You are advocating for Lucifer from the depths of Hades. If you're going to allow for your instinct on the Clippers to come to fruition, right?

And in some sense, dismiss what has happened thus far in the season, because what we've seen thus far in the season, they don't look anything like an NBA Finals team. And by the way, I also picked them to come out of the West. Then why not allow for those first 12 games of the Lakers to be a growing pain period with a new coach and a roster that only includes six players from last year's team?

I'll allow for that a little bit, but it's all, it's all like the Clippers are 13 and 11. So they have a winning record. There are a few games ahead of the Lakers and they've at least proven like without our guys, we could scrap together some wins and the supporting cast is better than the Lakers supporting cast. But no, it's a fair point. Like,

I said, I feel like a sucker. I feel like every year I'm like, oh, I'll go look at the depth. Robert Covington is Robert Covington even going to get minutes this year. Oh, my God. Nick Batum went over to in 28 minutes again. Wow. So I look, I'm with you. I'm with you. If you if you force me to pick a team to win the West right now, that's actually a good exercise.

If you for right now, the data you have, who do you pick to win the West? I have no goddamn idea. I might just shrug my shoulders and pick Phoenix. I might pick. You know who I'd probably pick is Golden State. But I could easily talk myself into the Pelicans. I mean, why not? I mean, haven't you also been telling us an NBA today every chance you get? Like, no.

Don't forget about Denver. I could pick Denver, but every time, I mean, Michael Porter's been injured. So that's a big deal for them and they need him. They need his spacing. That's what's been sort of laid bare in the last few. I mean, they had a bad loss in Atlanta without Trey Young and that was a whole rigmarole for the Hawks apparently. And they had a bad loss in New Orleans. So every time you think they're catching a rhythm, it's like, okay, here goes Denver again.

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You wrote a big thing last week in the lead up to the Pacers game about this sort of theoretical two picks and Russ for Heald and Turner. I don't think anything's changed in that context. I don't think the Pacers are ready to go there yet. I think it would definitely take both picks for them to even start considering it. And I do think they're considering a Miles Turner extension instead of trading him. So we mentioned the Bulls one.

There's a Charlotte one that we can talk about. And as you wrote in your piece, very presciently, I don't know. There's also this alternative where they try to trade Nunn plus Beverly, who's been not good for them, and plus one pick for a...

a less sort of starry return, like just one good player maybe who can step in and play immediately. And that still gives you, even if you, maybe you can even do it for like a four second round picks. They have a lot of seconds they can trade. That still gives you the option of like, if that deal works, well, we still have the Russ and pick or picks deal down the line. If we want to, I want you to talk about the trades in this context, because a couple of interesting things have happened.

Number one, Russ's playmaking feels important to their team. Like fit flaws, shooting. LeBron needs a playmaker around him. He needs multiple playmakers around him. Is Dennis Schroeder enough? That's number one. Number two, AD is doing this as a full-time center, full stop period. He's never playing the four. So if you're going to talk about bringing Vucevic, for instance, into this team,

A.D.'s playing the four now, like you're going to just roll Vucevic at the five and what that does to your defense. And A.D.'s going to chase around power forwards and take him away from the rim where he's been extraordinary all season. Miles Turner, he's a five. Now he's better able to chase around fours. He's done a little bit of that. Is that really what you want? In that context, it almost feels like the kind of smaller trade you mentioned earlier.

would aim more towards like a combo forward more than a center i just think it's it's like you can talk about purdle and the spur it's like ad is thriving at the five and they need playmaking i think it complicates even that indiana trade a little bit what what do you what do you make of all that well i think there's a bunch of things to consider here one just starting with indiana

If you trade for those two guys, yes, the idea of you taking AD away from the position he's been thriving in doesn't make a ton of sense, but you also do know that Anthony Davis likes having a true center or another big next to him. Miles Turner's shooting 39% on threes this year. That's a little over his head, but he's a capable shooter.

You trade for Turner. You're going to extend them. You have to, or it's a disaster. And then that's your guy. That's your guy you're moving forward with. And are we convinced based on his time in Indiana that someone, the numbers certainly look good right now, but is that going to be one of your centerpieces that you build around moving forward in LA? Yeah.

There is some reticence there. Then let's say you go into the Indiana deal and parse it down to something smaller. And you say, you know what? Like that, there is some risk there with Turner. We take AD away from the five and we don't know if we want to extend him. Let's just try to get healed in the smaller context. Well, if he's your one guy, right. And this thing doesn't work out, this thing ends up in a first round flame out second round flame out. Well,

And now Buddy Heald, because we know how these things go, Buddy Heald's left carrying the bag. He was a guy who was supposed to shake things up, turn things around. He could become the scapegoat. And that's something that... Remember when the Pacers traded for Evan Turner as their final piece move? Remember when the Lakers traded for Ramon Sessions? Oh, my God. And that was supposed to be the guy. These things happen. I need a second, Dave. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

There was a first-round pick in that deal, right? Didn't Luke Walton get traded in that deal? Yeah, it may have been the same deal. Part of me says Luke was not part of that deal. Let's just do 15 minutes revisiting that deal. Let's throw the whole podcast away. Ramon Sessions, where is he now? Anyway, okay, so Heald becomes this. And also, Heald is too small. When they play these three guards around AD and LeBron,

Or two guards with Russ around the big three. It can work because the two guys in the middle of it are so good. But you even saw last night, Kyle Kuzma is just feasting. By the way, would be a great fit and a great trade target for the Lakers. It's just feasting with like hooks and floaters because Austin Reeves, Russell Westbrook, Patrick Beverly, Lonnie Walker, on and on are too small. They need one, just one bigger guy who can shoot. But like everybody needs that guy.

You're so right on Kuzma though. Why wouldn't you make an offer for Kuzma now? I'm wondering about this. Do you think that is something that is knowing your personnel, knowing a player, knowing their background, knowing their personality fit, recognizing that there are all those valuable things why you'd want them back? Or is that just like you can never swallow that?

because you traded him away. There is no room for pride when LeBron is about to turn 38. If you think he's the guy, call the Wizards. Be like, look, you don't want to extend him. We don't know. I'm just saying this. I'm playing Rob Palenka. You don't want to extend him.

None, Beverly, four second round picks. Okay, say no. Then we got to start talking about a first and what the protections are on the first and how uncomfortable that makes it. Make the call. Like, what is there, egg on my face? Because Kyle Kuzma became really good with the Wizards. Who cares? Well, I do think that is a solution of a one player addition that can have legitimate gains for this group. No question.

I mean, another, I'll go, I'll go through some names that I just sort of made up and bouncing around with league insiders. Kuzma was one that came up a lot. Doug McDermott comes up. I just don't, they're not getting any defense. It's just, it's, it's just, I love Doug. Would Darvin Ham even playing when it matters because you couldn't trust him on defense. And that, that becomes the point of like, is it really valuable if the coach won't use them when we need them on the court? So I agree.

People mention, I mean, I'm not even going to say the names because they're just so out of the Lakers price range. So I won't even say them. A guy I would make a call on is PJ Washington because he's entering free agency after the season can shoot. Although he went over 13 the other night, he can shoot, can play some defense when he's engaged kind of hit or miss on that end. But it's a good young player who fits the positional framework that they need. You mentioned personality dynamics, right?

Mitch Kupchak is the general manager of the Hornets. I don't think he's cutting the Lakers any breaks in trade talks. I don't think he's cutting Rob Blinka any breaks in trade talks. Ken Rich Williams comes up a lot with the Thunder. Everything I've heard, and this may be outdated, is he does not want to ever leave Oklahoma City. And they view him as like potential, like Nick Collison 2.0 in terms of building their culture. So, I mean, I'd call, but...

You know, who knows? People mentioned O'Shea Bursette with the Pacers. He's all right. Oubre, eh, I don't trust Oubre in a big playoff game. The one other guy that we should mention is Boyan Bogdanovich in Detroit, who the whole league whiffed on before the season. Detroit got him for Olenek and a song, like seconds before.

That's worth a meeting about. I think if you called Detroit and you're like, done, Beverly, and a first, and we'll have to negotiate protections on the first because we're at risk of already giving away an embarrassing swap to the Pelicans. I think Detroit, if you throw the first in,

I think there are negotiations to happen there around the protections. I think that's realistic. Those are the names I came up with. Cam Reddish, they seem to have an infatuation with Cam Reddish. Whatever. Those are the names I came up with, excluding the Indiana deal, the larger Charlotte deal that has Rozier and all this, which I think is too complicated and would require both the picks and not worth it, and the DeRozan-Vucevic one, which again...

I get why it's so appealing in theory. And I love DeRozan. I think DeRozan would fit with the Lakers. The Vucevic fit, I don't love. So Reddish, we know there's reasons why there's an infatuation there, mostly because of the length and the athleticism and the three-point shooting, but also because of the business reasons. Like, let's not.

Is he represented by Clutch? I don't even know. Yeah, he is. Okay. Let's also bring up the fact that DeMar DeRozan, demeanor-wise, the place he's at in his career, the fact that he continues to bring up the Lakers when doing interviews and being quite open about how he thought that trade was going to happen and how he desired to be there.

There's something there. There's something to the fact that LeBron went out for the Drew League to play with DeMar DeRozan this summer. I forgot about that. They don't show up out of thin air. No. So there's something there. And I think there are some fit concerns if that was the guy because this three-point shooting traditionally hasn't been...

lights out and you know how you're going to figure out the spacing if he likes to live in the mid-range if you're going to have the other guys working out of the post but i just feel like basketball iq wise and and kind of his approach to the game it would fit so well personality wise with lebron and ad that there could be a fit there i just don't know if it gives them ultimately everything they need i think like i do think

The way this thing is trending is it will be the smaller type of deal for a role player or role players that will be the first domino to fall.

And they see how that looks. And then there's still potential for a one-pick Russ thing that would happen afterwards. But I don't think that's their preference. I think their preference is to have the smaller deal be enough to get this team to another level. And they continue to grow together. And Russ continues to parse down his...

self-inflicted wounds, as Starvin Ham likes to call them, while bringing the positive parts to his game.

And then you have him come off the books or potentially you resign Russ at a much more digestible number in the offseason. And then he is a potential trade trip moving forward. What a plot twist that would be. My brain has never even contemplated Russell Westbrook on the Los Angeles Lakers in 2023-24. That would be a happy little plot twist. Let's allow for some happiness. Let's get in the holiday spirit.

And allow for some happiness. There are also some interesting little second draft candidates laying around. Like someone mentioned Rui Hachimura to me. Someone not with the Lakers mentioned Rui Hachimura. Chuma Okiki. Never stays healthy. I don't know. But December 15th is 10 days away. You have mentioned that. Many have mentioned that. That's when a lot of free agents that were signed.

become trade eligible. And we got to start keeping our eye on the smaller deal now, according to your reporting, which is always bang on. You've got to catch a flight to Cleveland, Ohio. Anything else you wanted to get off your chest before we let you go to the airport? Oh, wow. That's such a open-ended question here, Zach. I'm sure I could go through many things. I just think like, let's keep an eye on how, how,

Just watch the games and watch LeBron and Anthony Davis' body language. It tells you so much. And you'll see the belief factor with this group. They'll tell you. You can see with your own two eyes. And if they have that, they continue to have that, and they're not going to win 8 out of 10 moving forward. Let's put that aside. They're going to come back down to earth because the schedule is going to get harder. But what you're watching –

You see two engaged players that are playing with an intentionality and an aggression and a passion and a joy. It's worth it for the Lakers to continue to enhance this team. You know, I'll check back with you in the next 10 days when the schedule gets a little harder. I always tell people it's tempting to look at the West and stack them up team by team and say, OK, puncher's chance, puncher's chance, puncher's chance.

You got to win three playoff series to get out of the West. You got to be, I'm just making this up, like depending on where they get seated, you're talking like New Orleans, Denver, Golden State, something like that. Like as nice as eight and two has looked and as nice as you can make it look when you go team by team, winning 12 is just really, really hard. And I don't think they have the goods for that. Maybe even close to it right now, but you never know if 80 is going to play like this. It changes the entire, the entire model of the team becomes that's

valid again. It was invalid when he was playing just pretty good. And that 20th ranking in our ESPN 100 looked realistic. Now it's valid again. Dave McMenamin, coverage of the Lakers just absolutely second to none. Thank you for making a little time. Enjoy your continued jaunt around the Eastern Conference, my friend. Appreciate it. Thanks, though.

All right, let's change gears from an older team trying really hard to win now to some of the youngest players in the NBA. We are 20 plus games into the season. It's time to look around and say, hey, how are these rookies doing? No one better to do that with than Jonathan Gavone. How are you, sir? I'm doing great, Zach. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited to talk about these rookies. And I want to start with the Houston Rockets, who...

have pivoted between being completely unwatchable, must lead the league in zero pass possessions, just so much dribbling, so little passing, which has marginalized Jabari Smith, the number three pick in the draft, and was up until the final buzzer considered possibly the number one pick. And having watched everyone play, I'm like, how is that a thing? How is he going to be picked over Paolo Bencaro? We can talk about that. But four and three in their last seven games,

Three really good wins against the Suns, the Hawks, and last night in double overtime against the Sixers with James Harden back. And I'll tell you, Jonathan, that Hawks win,

was my favorite random win for any team of the entire season. The Hawks were clowning Houston, clowning them. They were up 90-74, I think was the score. And Trey Young and DeJounte Murray were just like dancing and prancing. And Trey Young hit a three to put them up by 16. And DeJounte Murray did the thing where he looked at the crowd and posed while the shot was in midair. And they were dancing. And Jabari Smith, it was Jabari Smith

got in somebody's face with the Hawks and was like, you can't do that to us on our home floor. And the Rockets came back to win that game. And they also have one of my favorite rookies in the entire league, not Jabari Smith. He's second in rookie player efficiency rating. He's basically top three in all advanced stats among rookies. Jonathan, I'm afraid I have a little rookie crush on Tari Eason.

So pick one of those two. What have you seen so far? I'll let you lead. Well, both of the Rockets guys were very hard for me to rank because, you know, with this article that just came out yesterday, our power rankings, we weren't looking. It's not a redraft.

And it's not based on their potential, you know? So it's really who has provided the most value to their NBA team so far. And I, you know, neither of those guys play like huge roles. Like they're very rarely the guys that decide if the Rockets win or lose. I'm sure the Rockets prefer to lose every game, you know, like a lot of the worst teams in the NBA right now. And they're just, they're a hard team to watch, honestly. Like I've always struggled with Kevin Porter,

Jalen Green is very hit or miss in terms of what you're getting from him. Way too much Eric Gordon, way too much Dasha Nix. I don't know what, what, you know what? I don't want to talk about Dasha Nix. I just don't understand it. I don't know what's going on. And it's just, it's a lot of Dasha Nix.

A lot of Dasha Nix, he got really fat again, you know, which was the reason why he went undrafted, you know? And so, yeah, I struggled with him. I did not have Tari in our top 11. Well, that's it. You're off. You're off the podcast. Someone else is going to have to come out and do it. How did you not have Tari Eason in the top 11? It's a pretty interesting class, you know? Like, who's providing more value to their team? Him or Andrew Nembhard? Him or Walker Kessler? You know, I mean, so...

Him. Yeah, I don't think so. Honestly, you know, like looking at their record. So, uh,

I mean, I feel like Tari Eason would be a guy that would be a lot more interesting to watch on a better team, you know, because it's so much standing around watching Kevin Porter dribble it 17 times and then jack, you know, a pull up jumper or Joan Green doing the same, you know, like he's not he doesn't really give them the floor spacing that I think they probably need. I mean, it's hit or miss, you know, and so.

But I love his energy. I love the deflection. I love the offensive rebounds. I love the way he gets out in transition. You know, and so he's, you know, he's a really fun guy. But yeah, Jabari Smith too. I think they're starting to figure out now how to utilize him a little bit better. The first...

I don't know, 10, 12, 15 games of the season were a complete disaster. You know, like for I think he was shooting like in the mid 30s for his two point percentage, which is, you know, maybe the worst in the NBA. He's been a lot better as of late, 42 percent for three over the last 10 games. He's really starting to perk up defensively.

Like you said, he brings them that competitiveness that they, that they really, really lack. I love, I love when he was like, I'm the youngest guy on the floor. I don't care. You don't get to talk to us like that on our home court, Atlanta Hawks. And they, and they walked the walk. They came back and won the game. All right, let's talk about Jabari Smith because he was going to be number one up until the buzzer was purported to be number one up until the buzzer. Um,

You can, you can see it, right? Like you can see the tools. He's shooting 38% from three now, I think, or 36% from three gigantic wingspan can switch across a lot of positions and,

A good rebounder. I think he's a good contested rebounder. He likes to get in the fray, can grab and go in transition. You've seen flashes of like creating off the dribble when he gets rare chances to dribble. But like you said, he's mostly standing around in the corner. He doesn't really even get to screen very much because the Rockets are playing defensively.

All three of their centers are getting in rotation minutes, Shen Goon, Fernando and Garuba. So he doesn't really even get to be like the pick and roll, pick and pop, pick and flare kind of guy. So it's been hard to kind of figure out like what is he going to be really other than what he is. But you can see tools greater than he's been able to show there.

And it's unfair to him because it's 20 games in on a team that's just dominated by these two guards who love to dribble all the time. But man, it's like Bankaro. We don't even need to talk about Bankaro. That guy's a monster. I don't care that he's shooting 26% from three. He's a monster. He can do everything on offense. He's actually a better defensive player already than I thought he was going to be given his reputation.

I don't really know like how Jabari Smith Jr. How is he considered the best prospect in the draft? What am I not seeing because of the context in Houston?

He was shooting so well as most of his freshman season at Auburn. And they did a great job of not exposing his weaknesses. Instead of letting him play one-on-one from beyond the arc, which is what Houston were doing a lot earlier in the season, they put him in the mid-post. They put him at the elbow. You know, Jerry Smith is not an athlete, and he's not a ball handler.

And so he's not a guy that you really want him dribbling more than once at best. You want him playing off these quick rip throughs, you know, like he was his turnaround jumper was falling, you know, with regularity. He was coming off screens.

He was bringing incredible energy. He was, you know, when he would dribble, it would be like to take a defensive rebound, dribble it up and hit a transition, pull up three, which, you know, you rarely see a six, nine guy do. And I think the hope was, you know, his frame will keep filling out.

And, you know, with more space in the NBA, the lack of athleticism won't be too much of an issue. But I think people, you know, they kind of ignored some of the red flags that were there that we discussed during the year. People didn't really want to hear about them. You know, like I think Jabari Smith had 13 dunks all year.

season in college you know which is unfathomably low chad homegrown had like you know 60 plus i mean bankero had 40 plus you know like if you can't impose your will at the college level and shoot a respectable percentage inside the arc which you've already spent the night too i think he shot like 45 for two you know like really low and so those were some of the concerns and so

you know, a lot of this rookie class, the guys that we're going to talk about, the context is so important. You know, like how are they being utilized?

Who is surrounding them? You know, like how competent, you know, do they know how to use these guys? You know, like and I don't think that the Houston Rockets knew what they were getting in Jabari Smith or they were just like, whatever, we don't care. We're just going to let him, you know, work on his weaknesses, work on his game, you know, like and it made him look really bad early on. And I think that they're starting to figure out how to utilize them a little bit better.

But there is honestly like even in these last 10 games, there's still red flags there. You know, like he's you know, he's going to have to build up his frame a lot, I think, to play through contact, to be a better finisher. He's never going to be an athlete. He plays this kind of sped up brand of basketball in terms of, you know, his passing and his decision making, you know, like that, like wasn't as much of an issue at Auburn where they played like an NBA style game.

and they had better spacing, you know, like, and so, and then he was the number one option, you know, and so that's, I think he's had to adjust, and there's been some ugly moments, and I don't think he's totally out of the water, you know, like, just because he's beginning to make shots the way he has, there's still going to be some ups and downs here, I suspect, as the year moves on. Of course there will be, but I actually, when I've watched him

It's just such a weird, it's a weird place to develop. I've been like, fine. Like, I'm not, I'm not super psyched that he fell to number three and that's who ended up getting it from the Rockets, but I'm fine. Eason. Oh, by the way, another plus point for Jabari Smith.

Junior, he hit a bank shot corner three last night against the Sixers. And this is my litmus test for players. One of my litmus tests. Are you my kind of player or are you not my kind of player? If you bank in a three, particularly from the corner, which is like if you tried it 100 times, you might not be able to do it. You have two choices.

Act all serious. Just jog back on defense, like not acknowledging that the basketball gods just gave you a gift to like almost pretend like, oh, what? Some weird. No, no. I meant to do that or shrug and laugh at your good fortune. Those are my guys. And Jabari Smith was like shrugging and laughing and like, yeah, I know I didn't mean to do it. So that's that's good. Eason.

But first of all, the Rockets starting lineup, and I don't really think this means all that much considering how young they all are. It's like it's the worst lineup in the NBA. Statistically, it's the worst lineup in the NBA. The threesome of Smith, Porter, and Green is minus 160. That's raw points. That's the worst among any three-man group in the NBA, and it's not close. Throw Shen Goon in as a fourth player. It's minus, I think, 110 or 115. Also the worst among four-man groups.

Their bench, which Ryan Hollins has nicknamed the goon squad, is a pretty big net positive for the season. And as an example, when Tari Eason and Kenyon Martin Jr., who's been sensational this year, are on the floor, the Rockets are plus five per 100 possessions. And I'll tell you why I like Eason. He can do a little bit of everything.

He's super switchable on defense, which is like that was the raw material that they drafted. It was like, let's get the Swiss Army nice on defense. He's an incredible rebounder. He averages almost three steals per 36 minutes. And like New Orleans has grand theft Alvarado. We got to start coming up with something for Eason because he's getting these backcourt steals everywhere.

Every game. Now, they almost always end in bloopers with Houston flubbing the opportunity to score. And Garuba had just... People need to YouTube the Usman Garuba blooper last night off of Atari Easton Steel. I could not even possibly do it justice describing it in words. He's also... A lot of his offensive rebounds as a caveat are on his own misses at the rim. Shooting 36% from three. I love this guy. And when I asked around...

The scout community, like what was the book on this guy? Why was he not drafted higher? Can you, can you guess what I heard over and over again? Let's feel for the game.

Can't remember plays. Yeah. Can't remember plays. We heard it over and over again that he couldn't remember plays. And so maybe I'll read the same thing, you know? And so maybe being drafted in Houston where like they don't run plays is perfect for him. Just like run around and do random stuff. I, I, yeah, again, it's early. We don't know what he is on a competitive team, but I love what I've seen from him so far.

Yeah, we have to get rid of Kevin Porter. We have to get rid of Dasha Nix. We have to figure out if Steven Silas is a good player. I'm not totally out on Porter. I'm not totally – I don't like watching him play. I don't like watching him play, but you need guys – I just want them to use Shen Goon a little bit more as a trigger man just to get them out of this monotony situation.

Of no passing on any possessions, just no past possessions. But you need guys who can break down people off the dribble. You need guys who can score from three levels and he can kind of do that. And you guys with balls and he's got balls. So I'm not all the way out. It's just it's not an enjoyable experience, though. No, definitely not. Yeah, I can't believe we talked about them for this long.

I think they've been fun. All right. So you're not, you don't share my Easton enthusiasm. No, I like, I like Tari Easton. Yeah. No, I just, I did. I watched a lot of NBA games the past week, you know, like I was stuck in this cave for a month watching a billion college basketball games and I had to come out of my cave and, you know, focus on the NBA, which I don't usually do in the month of November, you know, like I'm so locked in on the draft.

And it was actually a very enjoyable experience watching all of these rookies, you know, really catching up. And it was, it helped me so much, honestly, for this upcoming draft, because like it kind of put guys in a different light than I thought they, they would be, you know, like, and it's causing me to rethink the way I have some of these guys ranked. And actually I went to a couple of NBA games too. And so like, it was awesome. I did not enjoy my Houston Rockets watching experience. Well,

Don't go all the way out on Tar Eason. I like him. He's causing, he's causing Tar Eason was the most enjoyable part of the experience, but like Kevin Porter, Eric Gordon, Dasha Nix, you know, like I saw too much, you know, you, you have to, he's not a rookie, but I mentioned Kenny and Martin jr. People who are listening to this, you have to find the moment in the second half last night when he, I think he got a loose ball on the left baseline and,

And saw, and we know Kenny and Martin is a hellacious dunker. One of the best dunkers in the league. And he saw...

A long runway to the rim that was clear and one guy underneath the basket defending it. And the one guy was Joel Embiid. And literally they slowed it down on the Houston broadcast. You could see Kenyon Martin's eyes widen and a little smirk come across his face because he thought, oh, I'm going to get him. I'm going to get the big and he went for it.

And drew a foul like and it was almost a clean block, but like you he had this glee of like, oh, Paul Bunyan's under the basket. I'm going to dunk it on Paul Bunyan's face. It was great. Can I pick the next rookie to talk about? Because there's one guy I really want to talk about. This is your show. You can do whatever you want, Zach.

I want to talk about Jalen Williams one J dub on the Oklahoma city thunder. Who's been starting for them for quite a while now. And, and I've, I've enjoyed watching his game because he's kind of a high IQ feel player. He's only shooting 30% from three, but he's a good catch and go player.

He's a good passer on the move. You can tell he thinks the game really well. He's one of those guys who reads the game kind of from a step ahead, can pass it with both hands, has a little funky right-handed runner leaning and going left that seems to go in every time. Defensively, I think he has great feel and balance on defense. He can close out hard without flying by people. He keeps guys in front of him. He forces guys to make

tough shots over him. And they're throwing them in the deep end on defense guard. Dejounte Murray last night, Bogdanovich, he guards good players every game. And the thunder, the numbers don't show it, but when they have Gildress, Alexander, Dort, Giddy,

And Jalen Williams out there with one big man, they like, look, you can see the blurry outlines of like a regular modern basketball team. And he gets to run some pick and roll too, when they sit Shea and Giddy at the same time, which is like, I hate when they do that. It's a great way to try to lose, but I hate when they do that. Um,

I like, he's a very un-Thundery player, right? Like the Thunder have drafted so much for length and athleticism and like we'll work out the basketball stuff and the shooting later. This feels like the opposite kind of pick. Like we'll draft for feel and IQ and obviously position and see how his athleticism, what he has translates to the NBA. What have you seen from him and what was the book on him coming out of Santa Clara? He was, I think the 12th pick, right?

Yeah, he was the 12th pick. He was the big riser of the pre-draft process last year. And I think a lot of the things that you just touched on are the things that people saw in workouts, what they saw at the NBA Combine, where he decided to play both games, which most guys don't want to do. You know, I kind of disagree that he's not a Thunder player because like the 7'2 wingspan, he's 6'4 and a half barefoot, 7'2 wingspan. He can legitimately guard-

seven, two and a quarter can legitimately guard power forwards. But like you said, they play them a lot at point guard, especially in their second units. He's got a great feel. He's got great pace. He's playing off all these hesitation moves. He does it with both, with both hands. He fought, you know, second side, you know, bounce passes, skips off a live dribble, just really knows how to play basketball, you know, and he's, you know, he's been very underrated skill, by the way, really knowing how to play basketball. Yeah.

I think I would – if I were a GM, I would look for those guys. Of a basketball team, if you know how to play basketball, I want you on my team. Yeah, I mean, the Thunder drafted Josh Giddey too. You know, it's not all about athletes. You know, I do think that Presley does value those guys who know how to play. And Shea, you know, he's honestly not –

Athleticism is not his number one trait. He's got this herky-jerky game. He gets anywhere he wants, so he can pass. He's an incredible shot maker. So, yeah, I think he really, really fits him. And I like... They were enjoyable to watch because you understand what they're trying to build. There's...

there's a style of play there that really fits the NBA game. And that's why John Williams, he's always going to have value as a six, six guy who can dribble pass and shoot. I think he's going to be a much better shooter than the 30%. He's shooting now, you know, that, yeah, that that's, that's rookie stuff. He's not going to be a 30% three-point shooter. He's going to be 40% of his threes last year in college. He made 81% of his free throws. He's making 80% of his free throws now.

I think he's just, he's being forced to do stuff that are not in his comfort level right now. And that's good, you know, because like, it's going to get easier for him later on when he, you know, when he has a smaller role, I think. And that's what, you know, that he's like six right now in minutes played, uh,

which is, you know, he's playing more minutes than any guy outside the top six. And so, you know, the Thunder, like they're letting him develop, you know, they're bringing him along. And I think it's going to really pay dividends for them. He's awesome. I think he's going to be really good on both ends of the floor.

I'm a big fan. My only concern is like he doesn't seem like a blow away athlete who can like blow by people off the dribble. Faster guards have given him issues. But again, he's a rookie, but I think he's just a good basketball player. We're due, by the way, the timing of this podcast is unbelievable because some of rookies had their best ever games just last night. We're recording this on Tuesday morning. As long as we're on the Thunder.

Usman Jang had, I think, a career high, 13, 14 points last night, made three threes. You see exactly what he could, like what the idea of him is, like big, ultra switchable, 3 and D player.

It hasn't played much, so it's hard to get a read on him. Looks a little bit uncomfortable, like handling the ball and making decisions. But that's he's, I think, the second youngest player in the NBA. So that's that's to be expected size wise. And is everything you want. Have you been happy with him so far? I mean, they're played the efforts. He's been in the G League and recently he's come up and played a lot now on on the real team.

Yeah, I mean, they start he started the year off playing a good amount and then they they they sent him down to the G League. He played pretty well there, you know, and then, you know, now he's back with the big team and doing some interesting things. I mean, his shot has been very streaky, but, you know, like he's 6'10". He's fast.

you know, he can really pass. He's, you know, he guards multiple positions. I mean, he's got a good feel for the game. Like you said, he's, he's 19 years old and he's really thin and he's not an athlete. So it's going to be hard for him in the early going, but I mean, like the NBA scours the globe for these six, 10 guys who can handle pass and shoot and have feel on both ends. And so, um,

He has a very, very high ceiling. He's someone that I'd be very excited about if I were a Thunder fan, but it's going to take him time. The good thing for them is that they have a lot of time, you know, and so there's no they have no issue, you know, throwing them on the floor in an NBA game yesterday. And just, you know, if it works great and they'll ride him. And if not, then, you know, they'll take him out. He had 15 points, five rebounds yesterday in 18 and a half minutes.

He's a willing shooter. He's 10 of 34 on three. So it hasn't been great, but I don't really care. He's a willing shooter. He's confident. That matters to me as much at this stage of his career as anything else. You said feel on defense and I don't disagree. Like I defense is hard for rookies, but you see him rotating around the floor and making decisions in a way that suggests as he learns the speed of

And the sort of stylistic tendencies of the NBA that he's going to be a reliable defensive player. And he certainly has all the tools and the length, the ability to both guard quick guards and offer rim protection. Like I like the outlines of him. There's a rookie who had 31 points last night that I know you want to talk about. So please start gushing right now.

Andrew Nembhard, I mean, wow. This is why the context is so important because when I was doing my rankings last week I started, I saw he had like 40 pick and roll possessions the entire season. He barely dribbled the ball for them. But the last two games, no Halliburton, no TJ McConnell. And so they were forced to put the ball in his hands against the Golden State Warriors,

In San Francisco. And holy cow, what a performance. This guy had 31 points, 13 assists, eight rebounds, glowing by Steph. You know, not with explosiveness, just with his handle and his feel and his pace. And he's got sneaky good size. He's almost 6'5", and so he sees over the top. He lets the game come to him.

And, you know, the confidence that he's playing with is amazing. But, you know, we've seen him play a very different role with Halliburton, too. A lot of screening action where he's the screener and then he pops out or he rolls and it just really confuses the defense, almost like a Bruce Brown type action that Carlisle is running.

And then defensively, way ahead of, you know, almost any rookie in this class off the ball. Just like, you know, he just plays so hard. He's got such great instincts. Always in the right spots. He fights over screens. He gave Steph some real issues yesterday. I mean, Steph looked totally checked out yesterday. The Warriors, that's a different conversation. You know, not their most intense performance yesterday. But, you know, got to credit the Pacers. You know, they started so well.

lost a couple of games are on this tough road trip now no Halliburton and they you know they put up 130 points or whatever on the Golden State Warriors that was very impressive Andrew Nembhard no Turner either in that game no Miles Turner in that right yeah so that 31 pick in the draft you know like carries you to a win that's got to be exciting you know like if you're Kevin Pritchard Chad Buchanan I mean like because Ben Mathurin by the way

is a rookie of the year candidate he's number two and you know most of the the the vegas sides and so like they had a great draft and they have a very interesting young team moving forward the only issue is i mean i'm i think when going into the year they probably were hoping to have a better shot at drafting when byama and that's you know they might make the playoffs you know like the way things are looking you know the playing game i mean we'll see it's a long season but um

That's, you know, the Pacers have some tough decisions coming up, you know, with what to do with Miles Turner and Buddy Heald and all that. But they're in they're in a great situation right now. Well, I mentioned I recorded part one of this podcast yesterday morning. So before they beat the Warriors on the road. And I mentioned to that point, the Pacers have played the easiest schedule in the NBA by opponent winning percentage.

And so some pain was going to come. Well, they forestalled the pain by one game with a really nice win at Golden State without their two best players. And look, we've all talked about the Lakers trade endlessly. A couple of things on that. I mentioned extending Miles Turner a month ago. I mentioned it again yesterday. And Bobby Marks reminded me of something I said before, but it's worth noting again.

They have multiple ways to extend them, including giving them a raise this year with their cap room and then extending them out. And I think I don't think that has been I don't think that idea has been disqualified by either side. Let's put it that way. I think there could be some traction there. The other thing on these Lakers deals, and we talked about it with the Rosen and Vucevic just as a brief sidetrack.

Like the other team has to be willing to deal to do those deals. And I've talked about before, like why that I don't think that theoretical trade with both picks coming back to the Bulls is like crazy for the Bulls.

But the Bulls would have other options, too. That's what's that's what's seldom discussed in some of these Lakers trade talks is like if the Bulls actually made DeRozan available. And I don't I don't get the vibe, to be clear right now, that they're in that mindset, even though they're nine and 14 and careening. I don't think they're there yet. But if they were ever to get there, they'd have other options like those Lakers picks are really good, but they'd have other options. But enough enough of that. The Pacers, if they keep Miles Turner.

And Buddy Heald, they're not going to get into the Wimbledon race without like insane lottery luck. It's just going to get too far away from them. They're too good. They're better than I thought. Mathurin, we don't even have to talk about. That guy is so as advertised as this combination of power and

and finesse that you rarely see in a wing or guard at that age. Like he, he has a really soft, like buttery jump shot. And then he goes to the rim. Like he wants to kill people. And I just love all that. You know how hard it is. You know how hard it is for a veteran guard to average eight free throws per 36 minutes, like a veteran guard.

DeAndre Ayton might not get eight free throws in a week until the last week. And he's a center. And last week he's gotten the line more. But like that's like almost Jimmy Butler level free throw aggregation by by Benedict Matherin. Nem hard is you mentioned the screening. I wrote about that last month.

And that was what first got me onto him. The shooting and the defense you see, but his ability to screen and make plays in open space was really appealing. There's always one rookie.

Herb Jones, whoever it is, second round, random second round guy who like sneaks on to first team all rookie or is like the first guy on second team all rookie and bumps off. Like there's always a Jalen Green who has like huge stats who gets bumped to second team by this particular type of rookie. This Nebhard is going to be that guy this year. I don't know what he where he's going to finish. God knows I haven't thought about all rookie yet.

He's just, he looks like a basketball player, man. He's pretty good. And he's, you said six, five and sneaky. I don't know what it is. Some guys, there's just this weird species of NBA player who looks like they're six, one. And then you look up their height and they're six, five. I don't know why. I don't know if it's playing style. When you said six, five, I was like, Whoa, he's six, five. I guess he's six, five.

Yeah, he's just thin and he doesn't have much length. And that's where one-on-one defensively he's, he struggled at times. They, they target him, you know, like that Sacramento game, Malik Monk, you know, the guys like that give him problems, but he's so good off the ball and he plays so hard that it's fine. You know, like the question is for me is,

Is he going to be, he's shooting 43% for three right now. That is not who he was at all in college. He was a career 34% three-point shooter. And a lot of that is because he's taking easier shots. He doesn't have to handle the ball. And especially when you're playing with Halliburton, you're going to step into rhythm threes. But yesterday, holy cow, the shot making off the bounce, like that was like, wow, that's eyeopening. We didn't see that at Gonzaga as much, but yeah,

Yeah, I mean, like, and people are like, oh, he's 30 years old. No, he's not. He's 22. He's going to keep getting stronger. He's going to keep getting better. He's going to if he keeps up this confidence in his shot. And also, you know, just playing, you know, at his own pace and getting in the paint because he doesn't do that a lot. He doesn't get to the free throw line. He's not the most physical finisher.

But he's shown flashes of being able to do that a little bit more. And, you know, his feel for the game is so good that, I mean, he's going to be, I mean, he's on a four-year contract for basically the minimum. You know, like he's one of the best contracts in the NBA right now. And look, they have a foundational backcourt in Halliburton Matherin. Like that's a great place to start. How they build out the rest of the roster over the next three years is going to be really interesting for,

particularly if Miles Turner eventually ever gets moved because that leaves a gigantic void. And Isaiah Jackson has been pretty hit or miss. Goga never plays. The other guys are, you know, Terry Taylor, O'Shea Brissett. I mean, they're, they're kind of fringy guys. I have a soft spot for Brissett, but, but it, you know, the, the, the roster is kind of shallow when you look medium long-term, but those two guards are special and,

And Nebhard looks like he's going to be a good supporting piece for a long time. They've got picks too. This is a very good draft coming up. I think they have three first rounders. They have their own. They have Boston's via the Brogdon deal. And they have Cleveland's if assuming Cleveland makes the playoffs because it's lottery protected and then it converts immediately. And I've mentioned this about the Pacers before. They have picks. They are rebuilding. You mentioned the Wimbanyama sort of pipe dream.

I think the reason why we are fixated on this and how they are right now, at least above the Wimbanyama brigade is, yeah, they got these couple extra picks. Oklahoma City has a million picks. Houston has a million picks. Some teams that are good like New Orleans has a million picks. Utah has a million picks.

All those teams that are rebuilding maybe a step behind the Pacers, maybe even with the Pacers, depending on how you conceive of some of their players, they have a lot more bites at the apple and they're other than Utah, at least right now, much worse in the present day. And so you just sort of, that's what, that's where the uncertainty of how, how does Indiana find the next guy and set up guys if they don't tank this season. But look,

The Pacers have never really been a tank team and they have always found ways to remain competitive. I think they're actually one of the, you know, they're never sexy to talk about other than when they're going head to head with Miami and the conference finals all those years. And then the second round one year, I think they're one of like everyone trumps up the Spurs. The Spurs have won a million titles. They deserve all the love. The Pacers staying this competitive for like since the 80s basically is one of the great kind of.

Just good, competent stories in the NBA and that the fact that they've never won the whole thing and only made the finals ones shouldn't really like we should. There should be a little Pacers appreciation. They've been good for a long time, mostly good for a long time.

And they actually have a license to tank, is my understanding, if they want to do it. I think ownership is on board with this. And so we might see them transition. Problem is, they're probably too good. You know, like Halliburton, too good. Miles Turner, Mathurin, you know, Nembhard. Riccardo is a really good coach. So I don't know how they flipped the switch to being bad because the next two drafts after this,

I don't, you know, it's too early to say, but like not looking great right now, you know, like, so like, if you want to want to do your tank job, you better do it this year because not only is Victor there, but like Scoot Henderson, the Thompson twins, this is a very, very good class, you know, and there's depth to it too. So, yeah.

you know, some tough decisions coming up for them. And I think if they want to tank, it's there for them. I don't think ownership is going to stand in their way, but like, they're probably really excited. I mean, it's fun to win. I don't even know. Honestly, I wish I knew the answer to that question. Would ownership really green light it? Because it seems to change by the day, by the week, by the wind, by the loss. Yeah. You know, I've said all along, if the Lakers came with those two pigs unprotected,

At the very least, the Pacers would get Herb Simon and Herb Jr. and all the brain trust in a room and say, okay, this is the one. We've got to discuss this one. It's too far off. Those picks are too far off. It doesn't matter. They'd still have the meeting. And I bet you the front office would try to twist the arms of...

of the ownership and say this is the one we got to do i think they have the equity to to pull off almost any trade that they want in terms of ownership it's my understanding question is what do they want you know to get a 2029 first rounder i mean like zach we could all be dead by then you know like who wow that start usually i say miami could be underwater by then or like the world could be underwater by then we could all be dead by then

It's a long time. It's seven years from now. Like, I don't know how much that interests me, honestly. A first-round pick in 2029? I mean, like, jeez. I think Kevin Pritchard should use that line if Palenka ever makes the offer. Be like, look, Rob, we can all be dead by then. I don't want that pick. Like, I'm going to talk to teams that can give me picks for next season. We can all be dead by then. Oh, my God.

I think I'm like a curmudgeon and a pessimist. Like, I'm – wow. That's dark. You have a young family. It's dark out there, Zach. You have a young family. Give them some hope. Croatia's in the final eight of the World Cup. Don't bring me down. Enjoy that. Yeah, enjoy it while you can. Oh, my God.

All right. Well, let's talk about another teenager who has a bright future in this world, hopefully ahead of him. The last guy we're going to look, there's a lot of rookies. We're not going to get to Walker Kessler, who is as advertised monster offensive rebounder, monster shop locker, holding opponents to 53% shooting at the rim. Dyson Daniels. I wrote about in 10 things last week, love Dyson Daniels. He's a fun all around player.

I've talked about A.J. Griffin in 10 things last week with the Hawks. Love what I've seen from A.J. Griffin. Old school, stout, pull-up two game. Has earned a big rotation role there. Written about all those guys, so we're going to cut it short. Let's go to Detroit and two rookies that I haven't talked much about. Jaden Ivey and Jalen Duren. Duren is the youngest player in the NBA. It's been...

Cade's been out. Sadiq Bae was out for a while. Bagley was out for a while. Now Bagley's back. When Bagley came back, Stewart was out. So it's been...

They haven't really been able to play the rotation that they want to play. I don't even know if they know the rotation they want to play in terms of are they really going all in with these double center lineups and Isaiah Stewart at the four. Ivy hasn't had his backcourt mate for the last 15 games or whatever it is. So it's been hard to get a feel for exactly what these guys are, but I think there's reasons for great optimism with both of them. And for sure, I think Detroit envisions...

Ivy, Cunningham, Durin as three-fifths of its starting five in the next two, three, four years as the team gets into what it's going to be. Ivy obviously was the subject of much infatuation and attempts to trade up. What have you seen from him so far, particularly with Cade out, which is tough sledding for him?

I think Jaden Ivey might be the most exciting rookie in the NBA. I would be thrilled right now if I'm a Pistons fan with Ivey and Duren. I mean, Jaden Ivey has been much better than Keegan Murray, even though he's two years younger. You know, like for the modern game, just having a guy like that who is six foot four, he looks

watching his film, I was like, this guy is like, he's a young Russell Westbrook, you know, like the athleticism in the open floor, you know, and also in the half court, just changing speeds, how,

Nobody can guard him. I was watching the Celtics game for a day, but the Celtics have good backcourt defenders. They couldn't guard him either. So he's just 20. He's got so much more room to grow. Obviously, his shot needs to improve, his decision making, his defense, all the things that we knew coming into the NBA season.

But Jaden Ivey looks awesome. And if he weren't in Detroit, you know, which is probably the worst team in the NBA and just not a very attractive team to watch in general, people would be so much more excited about him. I feel like watching him. I was like, holy cow, like Jaden Ivey is going to be awesome. And the same thing can be said about Jalen Dern. He's been, you know, all over the place, you know, night to night. You don't know what you're going to get from him.

He's already top 10 in the NBA in dunks. He's top 10 in offensive rebound percentage. And some of the things that he does defensively, hedging out to half court, switching on guys, you know, rotating to protect the rim. You know, like there's some bad moments there, too. I mean, he is the youngest player ever.

in the nba i mean he could almost be in high school right now he just turned 19 years old yeah it's too bad for him we're all going to be dead in 2029 he's got him he's got seven years you know so he may as well enjoy it while he can i didn't hear anything you said the last two minutes i just zoned out thinking about how we're all going to be dead in 2029

You could have said anything. You could have said Jaden Ivey is my MVP of the whole season. I take him over LeBron James. I don't know. I zoned out. Detroit is sneakily a very interesting young team. You know, once they get Cade back, uh,

You know, Isaiah Stewart, I mean, offensively, like that guy has made a big leap too. You know, I was watching some of the minutes with Ivan. I'm like, Isaiah Stewart is shooting threes like that now? I mean, that was something that like he never did in college. Okay, defensively, he's got, you know, a lot of room to grow. But like if Isaiah Stewart were on the Lakers right now, people would be very, very fired up about him. He's gotten a lot better. Yeah, it's interesting because, you know. And he's 21, by the way.

They came into the season after the last 30, 40 games of the last season. They're like, all right, we're built to switch almost everything. We think Isaiah Stewart's got good feet at the five. We can switch with him. And then he's undersized for a center. And Jalen Duren just physically is a monster. And he's...

You mentioned hedging and protecting the rim. I think that's the vision with him is we can, we can, you look at him and you think rim protector and he's going to be a rim protector. I think the Pistons think we can play any scheme defensively with Duran. We can switch with him and he has so much force and length on the perimeter that he might end up being better than Stewart at that kind of defense. I do think it's interesting that they seem so focused.

into playing Stewart at the four, basically next to Bagley and next to Duren. I didn't really see that coming. He is shooting 36% on threes, Isaiah Stewart on four attempts a game. So it's not like trivial, like you said, and some of them are above the break. Now it's not just corner threes. It's not just like the no one's near me. I'm going to wind up, check the wind and shoot threes. They're real threes.

And it is, I think they're trying, they're trying to see if, you know, we've been writing for 10 years now, small ball is really just about skill, not size. And the ultimate apex of the NBA is size.

Size plus skill plus playmaking across the board is like is guys who can be seven feet tall, 6'10", 6'8", and play like guards. And I think Detroit is trying to see if like, can we can we combine enough size and skill in these two big groups? I'm kind of skeptical, but I'm in for the experience of watching it. Like, I don't I don't know that Isaiah Stewart's like their long term starting for I'd rather say.

Someone like Sadiq Bay win that job and Sadiq Bay has been kind of this year, but I'm kind of into watching it. But I think Duren is going to be really good. And I think Ivy, I mean, the speed, the change of pace, he's got a floater. He's got confidence. There's nothing not to like about either of these guys. 20 games into the season, really.

Yeah, you can see the outlines of what Detroit is trying to build. And that's all that, when I'm watching these bad teams, that's all I want to see is like, what are these guys trying to get to in a year or two? And you could see it, honestly. And like, it'll be way more visible once Cade gets back. And then if they get like, you know, like Scoot Henderson or someone like that, they're like, yeah, then they're going to be like off to the races big time.

Jonathan Gavone, your rookie power rankings that don't have Tari Eason, so I don't like them, are out on ESPN.com. They came out yesterday. They are a fantastic read. Your draft coverage is absolutely essential to everyone in the NBA. At least this year, there's not going to be any drama about who's going to go number one. I can be one of your sources for who's going to be the number one pick in the draft. Everybody go read Jonathan Gavone's stuff. Listen to everything he does. Thank you, sir. Thanks, Zach. Have a great day.