Ohm Youngmisuk and Kevin Clark
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And now, The Low Post. Welcome to The Low Post podcast on Friday, December 30th. Happy New Year, everyone. Have fun. Be safe. And it's time to talk about Los Angeles basketball. I want to talk about the Clippers, who had a monster game last night in Boston. Felt like a playoff game. Two really good teams. Om Young Masuk, how are you, sir? What up, Zach? How's your holidays going? Oh, let's see.

everyone but me got the flu screwing up our entire travel plans we just finally got to toronto yesterday so i missed most of their incredible homestand i'll see the suns tonight but everything's good santa was good santa brought some good gifts and uh even some gifts that like uh like some santa brought some stuff for my daughter that's fun for adults to play with too so we've been making the most of that how about you

I'm fighting a little stomach bug right now, but otherwise everything's going good. Can't complain. You're not load managing your way through the stomach bug? You don't need podcast load management? No, I'm ready. If I need to play a back-to-back, Zach, I'll do it. Look at that. A back-to-back. That's unthinkable. Nobody should play a back-to-back. Before we talk about the Clippers, who are 7-3 in their last 10 games, and I feel like kind of starting...

To look like the clip. Like it feels like their season is now officially underway. With Kawhi back. And looking more like Kawhi. Played the entire third quarter really hard last night against Boston. Came back for the last seven minutes. Like that's a real shift. A real like we're trying to win. We're pushing you shift for Kawhi. And he looks good. We should start by talking about LeBron's comments this week. Our Dave McMenamin who's at Lakers shoot around right now. Asked him just about anything.

the Lakers being terrible, basically. And LeBron said, I don't want to finish my career like this. This is not what I play for. I play to win. Winning's in my DNA. And since before the season really even started, he was sort of sending alarm bells about the Lakers. You know, it's not like we've got a bunch of lasers up in here. We're small. Talks about how small they are across the board all the time. Obviously, Anthony Davis is hurt. My God, Oum.

They have no shot on defense without Anthony Davis. And it's interesting in contrast with the Clippers because all these other teams can lose star players and like scrap their way to four and four over eight games. The Lakers lose Anthony Davis. It's like they might never win another game again. Why? How is the supporting cast this flawed? What did you make of this latest round of LeBron games?

Kind of just saying this roster isn't very good and I'm not happy about it. Dave and I talk about this almost weekly. You know, we have this show, That's OD on YouTube, where we just talk all LA basketball and we always start with the Lakers. And it feels like every week we are kind of deciphering what LeBron's comments mean. I actually liked the fact that he came to finally came out, kind of talked about what,

like he's upset about that he wants to play when the chambers he's finally like talking about it normally it's just like this passive aggressive like what is he talking about as a very like hidden kind of like message and now he's I think the frustration starting to get to him and he's just saying like look

I don't want to do this. I don't want to play on a mediocre team. I'm here to win. Basically, you're wasting my good years that I have left. Maybe by next week when Dave and I talk, maybe he'll actually be naming Rob Palenka by name. Because, you know, like every week you can kind of see in the comments, you know, I think Dave and I were talking one time he was asked about some other team. I don't remember. It was some young up and coming team. And he kind of talked about the roster. The Kings. Yeah, it was the Kings. The Kings.

he talked about the roster construction. It was easily like you could, it was construed to like, he's talking about the Lakers. You know what I mean? Like this is what he wants to see with the Lakers. So hopefully the next, you know, we might see it in the next couple of weeks. LeBron might actually just be like, I need you guys to make a trade. I need you guys to start going out there and getting me some help because I think it might actually reach that point because otherwise we're only watching him now trying to chase down Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

which is kind of sad. Like, you know, when I covered the New York giants several years ago, I remember thinking like they need to take advantage of this window that they have with Eli Manning as their franchise quarterback. And the more that you waste it and waste it and waste it, you're never going to get that back. LeBron James. I,

I got to agree with him. I mean, at his age, he still easily could be helping a contender win a championship if he had the right pieces around him. He's still absolutely amazing. And it's just sad watching him every night try to lift a team like this. And that eight and two stretch wasn't like completely fool's gold. Like when they have LeBron and AD...

They're not an eight and two team, but they're an okay team. Like they're a good team. They needed a D though to play at like, this was like bubble a D level. And I wasn't quite sure how sustainable that was Zach. Not only the fact that like a D always gets hurt and tweak something, but the level he was playing at was insane. And I was just like, can he keep this up? I'm not quite sure if he could. And so, you know,

I don't know how long he's going to be out. It's one of those things where it just certainly looks like it's going to be a while with a foot injury like that. They don't even have a lot of details on it. Anyways, you were just hoping you just didn't hear the dreaded word Liz Frank. You know what I mean? But I certainly think like,

I don't know what Rob Palenka is going to do here. You know, Rob Palenka, Dave and I had talked about this. We were like, does AD's injury make you less inclined to go out and make a deal if you're Rob Palenka? Or do you feel more pressure to go do it because you need help to get LeBron to stay afloat until AD comes back?

I tend to think the second. I know if you're Rob Palenka, you're trying to protect the future interests of the Los Angeles Lakers and not give away all your assets, but you can't predict what's going to happen two or three years from now. This is why you got LeBron James was to try to contend every year. And now you're literally wasting this. Who knows what LeBron's going to be like next year? You got to take advantage of what you got this year. So I disagree with you and I'm going to make my case.

The Lakers are three games out of the play-in and three games out of last. They are hopeless defensively without Anthony Davis. I don't think AD is like that close from what I've heard to coming back. I think it's going to be multiple weeks. Yeah, I agree with you on that. And maybe longer. I just think this season is too far gone given that reality. I just don't see... Too far gone to make a trade...

That is short-term oriented. Now, if you're going to tell me we'll flip those picks for a really, really good player, and really they need players who are under contract for multiple seasons, who we view as the Lakers as...

trading for this guy on this contract is better than what we can do in free agency this summer with a very shallow free agency class headlined by Kyrie Irving, who has had, let's say, a problematic last couple of years in the NBA in terms of can I really count on him to be reliable? Now, lately, he's been crazy. And the names that you would come up with are all obvious, like Bradley Beal, Zach Levine. Barring that,

And I don't know if either of those guys are available right now. I actually, I don't think either of those guys are available right now. I just don't think you can make a trade for the sake of making a trade. I don't think you can make a trade for like a nice role player or two that can help this team finish 11th instead of 14th. I just, I just don't think you can do it. But I will say, look, every time LeBron makes these comments, I hear the same stuff coming back, which is don't, don't panic.

He wants to finish his career as a Laker. He does not want to leave the Lakers. Do not read this as like he's going to demand a trade or he's going to bolt when his current contract comes up again, having just signed an extension. He can't be traded this season anyway, blah, blah, blah. And I still think all that is true. I still think all that's true. I'm still hearing that same stuff. But I will say this. This was the most direct one to your point. This was the one that made me think at some point, maybe it's next year,

There is a point of no return where it's like if we're still just bad and hopeless, I don't know this. I'm not saying this is true. He does want to finish his career or he does not want to leave L.A. These comments signal to me, though, that there is a timeline for we've got to actually get good again. And if we don't, I don't quite know what happens.

I'm not saying that Rob needs to go trade his two first-round picks and get a couple Band-Aids to patch up for this season. I think it can still be twofold. It can still be multiple guys that can help this season, but also young, good players that maybe you can...

kind of like, I'm not saying the franchise players, but you can help good building blocks for future years that are still young. Don't go out and get an aging veteran. I'm not saying that. But if you're going to use one or two first-round picks, I think you can still find a happy medium there where you can find multiple guys that can help this season, but also will be good complementary pieces as well. Good, strong pieces for the future. Well, as I've said before,

You need to now bake into whatever you're trading for, that Anthony Davis plays center, and that you need another playmaker around LeBron. For all Russ's flaws, and that trade was and is a disaster, I don't care that he's having a nice six-man season, all that, his playmaking has proved very important

in unleashing that Anthony Davis streak that you talked about. And in just like LeBron, he has always, he won a championship with Kyrie Irving. Like he needs another guy and that guy isn't Dennis Schroeder. It's not Pat Beverly. It's not Lonnie Walker. It's not Kendrick Nunn, you know, vaunted preseason, like watch out for Kendrick Nunn. I'm still watching. I don't know. I don't get to watch him play very much. Just keep those things in mind. It's always funny, Zach, right? Because like the formula seems like we know it.

Got to surround him with shooters. Give him some playmaking help. And give him a good scoring big who can probably play two ways, right? But at least a scoring big who can stretch the floor, right? And Lakers ever since like Magic and Rob, remember the first year they had him, they were just like,

oh, you know, we don't want to tire LeBron out. We're going to surround him with playmakers. And they went and got all these guys that can handle the ball, but nobody could shoot. And then the following year, yeah, it was like the following year, they tried to get guys that could shoot, you know, and then they have a good thing going. And then they obviously broke it apart. I'm sure, obviously, LeBron doesn't, LeBron's got to sign off on all of those moves, right?

And so it's like, here we are again now. They don't have enough shooters, need a little bit more playmakers. You know, it's just this evolving thing. It's like you would know, you would seem to think that you guys already won one championship with them. You know what the formula is. Go get that. Don't deviate. It's funny when you said it feels like we know what the formula is. I was going to say, you know why it feels that way? Because they won the 2020 championship using that formula not that long ago.

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Let's talk about the other L.A. team. 7-3 in their last 10 games. Lost in Boston last night to a Celtics team that has found its footing again. And that was a revenge game for the Celtics because the Clippers blew Boston out in L.A. two weeks ago. And that felt like a game, as did the Sixers-Clippers game, which the Sixers also won in Philly about a week ago. That felt like a game between two teams who were like, oh, you're really good. We're really good.

This is fun. Like this is a playoff level game. And because Kawhi is starting to look like Kawhi again,

The Clippers, it feels like Ty Lue is starting to play the lineups that he really wants to play. So just last night in the Boston game alone, we saw lineups with Kawhi and Paul George at power forward. So it's like Wall, Kennard, Powell, Kawhi, Zubats. We saw the five out lineups that we know that they want to – now they didn't do well last night because Robert Williams was on a pogo stick getting every offensive rebound and dunking on people –

But we saw the five out lineups and we saw some that didn't have either Reggie Jackson or John Wall in them that were point guard list lineups. You're Kennard, Paul George, Kawhi, Powell, Morris, Powell, Batum. Didn't see Covington supposed to be the center in those lineups. He's been banished. And when they play those lineups, or even when they played the big lineups, what's been encouraging to me is

They kind of just play random basketball, particularly when they're five out, which is, okay, who's got the worst defender on them? And for the Celtics, they don't really have any worst defenders. Derek White was the closest thing because Kawhi can bully Derek White. Bring that guy up, set a screen for Kawhi or PG. If there's a double and Kawhi was getting off of it early, like Norm Powell, you roll down the lane, I'll hit you. Boom, boom, open three after open three after open three. Random is okay because

Because the Clippers thing has always been, well, they don't have an identity. They're just kind of out there figuring it out on the fly because they haven't played enough together. They don't have an identity. Random can be an identity if it's done with like force and purpose. And they start these possessions early enough in the shot clock so that they have time to swing, swing, swing, swing, swing corner three. They're starting to look like the team that I think they thought they could be.

Um, so I'll just start with that. What is the feeling about Kawhi right now? And it's not like they're blowing the doors off people. Seven and three in their last 10 isn't great. Do they feel confident in them? Like, it's always hard to tell what the Clippers like, do they feel like they have it like a real contender or not? Like, so Kawhi and just the state of the team.

I think they do. Look, number one, Kawhi played season high 37 minutes last night. That is an absolutely great sign for him that he's been now at 35 minutes and is still building up. Of course, I think as I said this before, you always got to wait till the next day to see how Kawhi Leonard's feeling because you just never know what kind of spill he took that looked fine at the time. But then all of a sudden next day, something pops up with him. But that's a positive sign.

I think they look at their team as like, they're only like, I think three and a half out of first in the West. This, what are they, what, what are they not 10 and four now with LeBron with Kawhi and PG together? Yeah. I think they play last night was I think the 13th game they've had them together or something like that. So yeah, it might be 10 and 10 and you know, I think they're 10 and four now. Yeah.

So knowing that, John Walls told me, he's like, have you told us that we were going to have this record with only having Paul George and Kawhi Leonard for this many games so far and all the injuries we would have had? We'll gladly take that because they're still learning how to play with each other. Last night, I thought there were a couple of things.

One thing is the Clippers always get up for games like this. They love playing the Celtics. Celtics love playing the Clippers. It's like that Spider-Man meme. I think they see each other when they come and play together. They see basically a team that's built around two wings that are elite and can dominate games. They get up for that. But if you saw late in that game, Kawhi Leonard and Paul George were getting blitzed. They didn't handle that very well.

especially like at Paul George's blitz in that corner, there wasn't enough movement. Clippers Achilles heel is turnovers. Sometimes they don't really get up for games. They go through these offensive lulls. Even though Reggie Jackson's banged up, you saw him limping pretty badly in that game. John Wall, I think still figuring out his role.

um we got to still see if he's still going to have that elite john wall speed left in him because right now he's not playing in back-to-back games he's not even playing in consecutive games sometimes he has an ankle injury and then when he comes in he's still shooting like a lot of shots from outside sometimes he has questionable turnovers sometimes he wants to really push the pace i i feel like i haven't seen him push the pace like he was earlier in the season it's funny he hasn't the last two or three weeks he's fallen off that we just haven't seen as many like

John Wall creates a cornered three out of like a two on two. Yeah. Fast break, like not even an odd man advantage or anything like that. And last night he took no ISO long twos early in the shot clock for John Wall, please. Yeah. A couple other things when they're at their best and Tyler was harped on this a lot. You cannot see Luke Kennard play 17 minutes and not take a shot.

Luke Kennard has to shoot. He even has to take contested shots if it's just to keep defenses honest because when he is on the floor, there is a certain gravitational pull with him that defenses have to follow him. And the Clippers talk about this. Kawhi talks about this all the time, that when Luke Kennard is moving right and just his movements can free up things for him and Paul. But, of course, he didn't take the shots. And then I think I would say, Terrence, man, Ty Lue's got to figure out how to play him more. I think he played like five minutes last night or something like that.

I understand what Tyloo's thinking, that if he's out there, he's got to attack the basket and score more. And I don't think Terrence might have taken one shot or something like that. But Terrence Mann is the one guy who can actually force the issue. He brings energy.

Energy players are so big now in the NBA. You look at like Yudha Watanabe earlier in the season. You see it on almost like every veteran team. They need this one young energy guy that brings it every night. Terrence Mann's that guy for the Clippers. And then defensively, as good as Kawhi and Paul are, they still need a guard who can stop everything.

these young guards from penetrating. I think Terrence Mann kind of has to be that guy for them that can take on quicker point guards, things like that. He's like a Swiss Army knife. They need him. They didn't have that last night. Ty Lue also didn't play if he's a Zubatsar guy.

Down the stretch in the fourth quarter, if he's Zubats had a really strong game, he was slowed down for a stretch there where he had like a groin injury. I think he had like a bone bruise in his knee starting to look a little bit better. But of course, Ty wants to go small and plays interchangeable wings. And last night it didn't really work. And I think he's still kind of experimenting, Zach.

I think he's still looking at these rotations to see what works best. You're right, Robert Covington's out of the rotation right now. And I think Ty Lue, he wants to win these games, but he's also looking at, I'm trying to figure out these rotations because he hasn't had these guys and these pieces for the majority of the season.

Well, look, these are not easy decisions for a coach, right? It's easy for me, and I have said it, to say Kennard has to play more than a token amount of minutes and Mann has to play more than a token amount of minutes because, to your point, they offer stuff that nobody else on the team offers, right?

Easy for me to say. But then who you're not playing like last night, Norm Powell played 31 minutes and he has had it going starting to get back that rhythm again before he got hurt. And I mean, before he got hurt and missed like, you know, I don't know, 10 games of the groin injury. Norm Powell was playing great.

I mean, last night he had a great shot at the end. I think the first quarter is a nice design play by Tyloo where he catches it and he just like runs to the corner and takes us running one leg, get three pointer and makes it. Norm Powell does bring a certain aggression in where he can get to the line and get to the rim. But I don't know what Tyloo is going to do. He's got to figure out all these guys, all these interviews. One other thing, one small thing that cannot be overlooked, Zach, last night.

Nick Batum was playing really well and then he sprained his ankle and Nick Batum was very limited last night and Nick Batum had been really good. He's kind of like their glue guy defensively. He's the guy that communicates all the time. He does all the little things for them. He's a very important piece for them. So now we've got to see if he's going to be labored or if he's going to be out with how that's going to affect them moving forward. Yeah. If I want to play canard and man more,

Well, Kawhi and PG, obviously they're in a different stratosphere. Norm Powell, after a slow start, is averaging 15.5 points a game on 48% shooting, 39% from three. He's now mounting a six-man-of-the-year case that we all expected him to mount. Pencil him in for whatever minutes. Batum...

Every time the Clippers go on like a 12-2 run, Batum is right smack in the middle of it with deflections, open three, sound rotation, tip-out rebound, all that stuff that Batum does. He's got to play. Zoo, they have no one else like Zoo. He's got to play. And so you start thinking like – and I know Clippers fans, these are sort of the popular choices for let's cut their minutes. Wall, Jackson, Morris. Yeah.

I mean, all those guys, I don't love watching Marcus Morris play. He's been pretty good for them and like make shots. He's tough, quicker guys, give him issues on defense, but he makes up for a lot of it with smarts. It's like, these are hard decisions. I do feel like though, canard and man have got to play. Powell has been awesome. Weirdly, Powell, Kawhi and PG have only played 33 minutes together the entire season. And their mind is 26 in those 33 minutes. But Norm, um,

Norm in those five out lineups is adding the north-south attacking that the Clippers got him to do. He is just like, I got no rim protector. The paint's wide open. I'm going. Or the rim protector's extended guarding Batum somewhere. I'm going straight to the rim. And he had a play last night, to your point about set plays for him. They ran a set play where he came off a Zubat screen from the left corner. Just ran off a Zubat's pin down.

And that's the kind of stuff I love when the Clippers do, because it's not just random figure it out as we bring the ball up. It's a play that's designed to get Norm Powell, maybe our fastest guy, a catch on the move with an advantage. And we play out of that. Boom, boom, boom. In this case, the Celtics switched and they posted up Zoo, who got an and one, I think, over a small. Just give me a little more of like stuff to get us moving.

And less just like kind of meandering into it. Powell's been outstanding. I like, I like what I've seen from this team. I don't, I don't quite know what's what, what if anything is missing other than the minutes conundrums and just more Kawhi time. Yeah.

they look, they look pretty good right now. I mean, look, why, you know, it's not just his numbers. You got to watch. If you watch him every night, he still draws a ton of defensive attention. I mean, defenses treat him like he never towards ACL. There's some defenses that double him, blitz him. Even like if he's,

he's not even on a hot streak. You know, he hasn't hit a lot of shots yet. He still draws a defensive tension. I do want to ask you one thing, Zach, how do you feel? We were in the preseason and Tyloo had, I guess, talked to Norm Powell about

about work on your point guard skills in the off season. He envisioned all five where Norm Powell would be the point guard. We've only seen, I think, glimpses of it this season, but I wonder if that's what you talk about. Like, look, if Reggie Jackson's not hitting shots in the night and he's banged up, John Wall is not pushing the pace.

You know, obviously you have Paul and Kawhi, guys that can handle the ball and play make. But on a night like last night, when they get blitzed, you still need another guy out there that's going to be able to play make, take the ball out of their hands and do something. He's so aggressive at getting to the rim. When he gets to the rim, he's so good at scoring, contorting his body. He's one of the best at doing it that I've seen. He's excellent with his body control. I don't know. Maybe they can try more non-power point guard.

Well, that's why I took note of those lineups last night. Five out and no point guard. I think Ty wants to dip his toe into that and see what it looks like. And Kennard is a really good playmaker. So if you have Kennard, Powell, Kawhi, PG, it's a little small. You know, I think those lineups are at their stoutest defensively when two of Morris, Batum, and Covington are on the floor with Kawhi and PG and another small guy, like a guard. But...

Kawhi is such a physical force and it's not just the length. It's how strong he is and how tough he is on the glass that I think you can get away with it. I don't like the ones that are like canard wall. We're like Paul George is the four. And those are just three guards, Paul George and whatever. Those are too small. But Kawhi, not only has he, he rounded into form, like he's starting to make threes and

He's had a couple of those like weak side steals where he seems to be in four places at once and comes and just like snatches this ball out of them. Like, oh, okay. He's grabbing the one handed rebounds too. Have you seen that? And he had, he had Derek White switched on him once last night, late in the game and just ran him over and just like Derek White had no shot. Yeah. I think those lineups you mentioned are going to be an important tool in the toolbox. I just wonder, we're almost halfway through the season.

It again feels like they're just starting their season. They have all these mouths to feed, so to speak. Their offense is trending the right way. Like they're getting a lot more threes now. Early in the season, they weren't getting any threes. Now they're in the top 10 in threes. You know, every single year they make a trade at the deadline. Every year. Often a big one.

They have a first round pick to trade. And if they're willing to trade an unprotected first round pick, they can get into not the loftiest conversations, but conversations that people haven't really put them in yet. Bogdanovich level conversations. What's the intel? What's the intel there?

You know, I think they're waiting to see what becomes available. I certainly think they are always looking and listening. And I think what they are great at doing, Zach, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, they're great at seeing what other teams need as we get closer to the trade deadline and trying to figure out something there. Michael Winger's very good at that. He's always trying to, like...

it's not just about what we can get. How can we help you guys? Whether it's, you know, hey, we need, you know, better contracts so that we can like, you know, unload this summer or we need more assets, things like that. He's very good at kind of feeling the room and seeing what other teams need. And I think that's,

A lot of their trades are very close to the deadline. So I think that's one thing that they're going to keep. They're definitely going to keep their finger on the temperature to see what's out there. Bogdanovich would be somebody that, I mean, you know, I haven't heard anything specifically. No, neither have I. I'm just saying that's a $20 million salary that is linked to every team that needs a veteran, including the Lakers, since Bogdanovich was on Utah.

And you never hear the Clippers mentioned in those conversations because I think people think, well, they've just traded all their picks and swaps. They have nothing left to trade. Now they have a 2028 or 2029 first rounder to trade, which sounds like it's not much.

One, unprotected. Now, if they start finagling like this protection, that protection, it becomes not that great. That plus a $15 million salary is going to get them in the door for conversations like that if they want to be. I just don't know if they want to be. And I think they're starting to coalesce somewhat.

And I think the biggest thing they have going for them is no one in the West has really completely coalesced either. Like the nuggets still have some questions, although I love the nuggets. The Grizzlies have been up and down lately. They're just getting healthy with Bain back. Um, the sons are flailing around. The Warriors are flailing around. The Mavericks have an easy next couple of weeks. The Mavericks are about to surge, but like, you know, like the Mavericks and the Clippers have a lot of history. Um,

I think they can look around and say, well, even if we're just kind of finding ourselves, everybody else is kind of finding ourselves too. Like, I bet they're hard to get a read on. I bet they feel pretty good about themselves right now. I just feel like I...

something is missing, but maybe the something missing is just kind of time. Well, it could be that. It could also be, it could be a little steadier point guard. Like I said, Reggie Jackson has been banged up. John Wall has, you know, been working his way back, but I think they could get a steadier presence at point guard. I still think they can use a fiery leader on this team. Somebody whose voice is respected, uh,

And it's outspoken because Paul and Kawhi are not the most outspoken duo. We've talked about this. I think they can also use a backup big. Ivica Zubac may be one of their most important pieces, Zach. If Ivica Zubac goes down for an extended period of time, yes, they have depth and they can play all these guys and they have Moses Brown. But, man, they need Ivica Zubac. His presence inside is big on both ends of the floor.

It's like the Kings when Sabonis got injured. It's like, we can't survive this, man. Can you play? Like he wants to play because he knows like they have, they just can't survive it. So they could use another, another big who can defend at the rim and maybe stretch the floor. Yeah.

So there are all these things and they can always use more shooters as well. But like, I would say those are kind of like the areas that if they were to upgrade at, maybe that's it. And of course you could see like, look, there could be veteran point guards that pop up at the trade deadline for sure that they could be interested in. I wouldn't say they would give up a first round pick necessarily for one of those, unless they lose one of their point guards.

But yeah, I mean, or if some other star becomes available, a young star that they can just add even more to the mix, maybe they'll look at that too. But I think they also need to look at, they don't want to mess too much with what they have. They got a good chemistry going in that locker room, a good vibe. And so you don't want to add something a little volatile to the mix or anything like that. It's been...

a good month for them. I wouldn't say it's been a great month. There are still like last night, it felt like the Celtics were going to win that game. It just felt like the Celtics had a little more juice and a little more versatility than the Clippers that a lot of stuff had to go right for the Clippers to win that game. But that's a road game against maybe the best team in the NBA. I mean, that's not, that's, that's a game the Clippers were underdogs in. I'm just fascinated to see what, what they think of themselves. If they think they have enough

Or if they are actually going to go out hunting because they've got the Covington. Covington's not playing. He's a 12 million whatever contract. They have a trade exception. I think a $9.7 million trade exception. They have a pick to play with. They've got tools to play with. I think it's been a good month for them, but not a great month. I picked them to make the finals before the season. And I can at least say they're starting to look like the team that

that I thought they would be just structurally, maybe not the end result isn't as dominant, but structurally, like this is the team that I was curious to see. And the last month has made me more curious because they have some interesting things going on. I mean, look, you look at Kawhi.

He's still not, he's still very much building himself back into form. If you, if, you know, he has said this ACLs, many people think it's a one-year deal. He says it's a two-year deal to get back to where you want to be from before the injury. So maybe he's not, he's talking about, he's not going to reach peak Kawhi this season, but you certainly can see when he's on the floor, it's building and building and building. He shows flashes. The first time he played against the Celtics, unbelievable 10 for 12, you know, he was just all over the court.

dominating on both sides. You know, I don't think you need to see that every night just yet. I think his whole thing is he's building for the playoffs. And if you look at their schedule, they've already played now, I think eight back to back. So they only have three left before all start. That's a big deal for them because, you know, Kawhi doesn't play in back to back. So now they're just John Wall. So once they get out of that, but after that second half, I think we talked about this last time I saw you is that they only have 21 games after the all-star break.

Could be a good thing because they have a lot of practice time. Could be a bad thing because they don't have a lot of game time to really kind of mesh. But Tyloo told us, give me 15 games, 15 games fully healthy with all my pieces, 100%.

I can get them to mesh and get all the chemistry and cohesiveness and everything together in time. And he was asked 15 consecutive games. And he was like, yes, not one, not two, not three, 15 consecutive games. And then he dropped an F-bomb and then apologized to us for cursing. But that's what Ty Lue's frustration is. He just wants these guys healthy for a 15-game stretch consecutively. But he's not going to have that.

If, you know, they're back to backs and guys aren't playing in these back to backs and he still has to mix and match. You know, you've been exposed to a lot of load management in the NBA when the season is 82 games long and the coach is like, can I just have the real team for 15, like 15, 15 out of 82, like the other 67. Yeah. I'll finagle it around like a mere coffee and Moses Brown. Can,

Can I have my team for 15? That's it? The other thing, too, is how you're saying, like, you're just starting to see this Clipper team that you envisioned. I think what we saw at the beginning of the season and the Clippers were, I think, prime example of this. A lot of these veteran teams, it took a while to their engine to get revving. A lot of them are just like, I'm not going to bust my ass.

in October, November, you know, it's still December. Now we're going to slowly get cooking here. And then I'm going to work my way up toward the playoffs. And the Clippers were prime example of that. I think a lot of nights, those guys were just like,

we're here in Oklahoma City. We got to play two consecutive games against the Thunder. You know, we have bigger things in mind. We're looking toward the playoffs. And I think they were guilty of that. Marcus Morris said it. Too many times he walked on the floor and we thought we're going to win just because of the roster we had on paper. And sometimes they get bored. You look like in Detroit, right?

They needed an unbelievable comeback to beat the Pistons. And when they play against these younger teams that are more athletic, that have nothing to lose, you tend to see the Clippers at nights go through these lows. The other team looks so much better than them. And then all of a sudden, what do they do? They end up coming back at the end and winning when they kind of like start caring about it. And then their games, when they really care about it. And it's like prime example, the Celtics, when they play against the Celtics are so predictable, you know, you're going to get, uh,

a great game from Paul George, Kawhi Leonard. Those guys are amped for those type of games. It's the other games. It's being in Orlando, you know, and then playing in a Charlotte, you know, back-to-backs or something like that. Those are the games where the Clippers don't look that great. Yeah, you know, I mentioned all the teams in the West that are

Just coalescing. Didn't mention the Pelicans who lead the Western Conference despite all of their key players missing lots of games. And that's the sort of physicality matchup that I think would be tough for the Clippers. But I guess here's where you mentioned Paul George. Sneaky good season for Paul George. 24 games, six rebounds, five assists on 45% shooting 38% from three. Looks good. Looks healthy. Looks smooth as ever. Yep. Paul George is a boss. I say it all the time. Paul George is a boss.

I mean, I would think PG would just tell you he just needs to take his limit his turnovers. But, you know, other than that, I mean, he could miss like eight games, come back and he's just so smooth. He just looks like he didn't miss any time. He makes those when he's hot. He makes those mid range jumpers where it's like, how does he ever miss? It looks so good. It swishes. I guess where I am with the Clippers now is.

A month ago when we talked about it, I said, boy, you mess around with this load management, this and that. You're going to be in the play-in tournament. If they stay healthy, I'm less worried about them falling into the play-in tournament now. I think they're going to be a solid top five team-ish in the West, maybe better than that. And from there, they can build out to wherever they want to get to. So that's where I am. It's been an interesting and I think mostly encouraging month in Clips land.

yeah i mean kawaii's got to stay healthy that's the thing the big difference is kawaii when he's on the floor you see the other guys engaged um he he just attracts so much attention and opens up so many things for him and kawaii plays so hard during his minutes when he's out there uh you know it just makes such a huge difference for them not to say that paul george can't carry the scene without kawaii leonard he can but i just think like mentally they're

They're just so more like, I think they're just like, okay, we got our guys here. This is our team. Let's see what we can do together. You know what I mean? I think there's just a different mentality when Kawhi Leonard's on that floor from them. Well, I'm Yama Su. Great coverage of the Clippers. Great coverage of LA basketball in general. Great background with MJ and Pippen looking regal behind you. I will see you soon in Los Angeles, my friend. Happy New Year. All right. Happy New Year to you.

I can't think of a better way to wind down 2022, another great year for humanity, really, 2022, than to wrap it up by talking about my favorite pet under the radar team,

The weirdest NBA team, maybe the most forgotten NBA team, the ultimate NBA wilderness. But now, but now eight and three in their last 11 games swept the Celtics swept the Raptors might've ruined an era of Toronto Raptors. Yeah.

Killian Hayes flashing a mean left forearm against Mo Wagner, instigating brawls all over the place. The Orlando Magic, Kevin Clark of the ringer of Slow Newsday. It's always great to talk magic with you. You are one of four Orlando Magic fans that I know that don't work for the team. How are you, my friend? I'm good.

I'm wonderful. I'm wonderful. We have moved. My wife and I have moved closer to Zach Lowe in the last month. We've already talked about this offline. We you have told me and warned me how hard it is to put the trash out in the street. And it's a big it's a big adjustment. I'll say that it's a big adjustment. Every Wednesday morning going into that utility room, smashing boxes, lugging them out to the curb like a sucker.

I missed the trash. I missed the trash room in my New York City apartment building. There's no space here, but is it worth it? I will wear my slippers outside for that walk, by the way. Just walk down. I will avoid the grass. Slippers only on the driveway. I'm not sure. Slippers, pajamas. Like, I'm just full on suburban 50s dad. Except I don't have a robe. I think I need a robe. So I ordered a robe and pajamas last week. Had none of them.

You don't need them in a, in Florida and then B when you're living in an apartment in Brooklyn. And so now I have to get both of those things. I'm going, I'm going full board into suburban dad life. I'm good. We had, so the baby comes next month. We had Bo outlaw to tie this all together. We had Bo outlaw announced our pregnancy, uh, to, we obviously told our family and friends, but then we had Bo outlaw make a video, uh,

in August to the greater people, the people who aren't in our circle, and he announced it. So Bo Outlaw is our conduit to the world as far as the baby coming and suburban dad life approaching. Could he be a doula? I bet Bo Outlaw could be a doula if you needed a doula. A doula, a night nurse. And I'm familiar with that. We could give Bo as a night nurse.

I mean, I don't know. Listen, he obviously works for the Magic as an ambassador, but I don't know if that's nights and weekends. He could be in the mix maybe for full-time child care. Who do we think is the best potential doula on the Orlando Magic? Is it Jonathan Isaac just because he's received so much medical care over the last three years that he must know certain medical techniques? That would certainly bring its own. The highest paid player on the Orlando Magic, by the way, Jonathan Isaac.

Well, I want to talk about their contracts because they're amazing. Like they've structured them all very well, but the best doula on the team would be Terrence Ross. I think, I think just,

Just steady, calm. Great hang. Great hang. Yeah. Oh, I did. I was listening to a Wendell Carter podcast recently. Wendell, he was on the Magics podcast and he's like a big theater guy, big actor. That was his big thing in high school. I didn't know that. He was like literal, like stage theater. And he, I feel like he could really just bring the energy, bring the charisma in the room, I would say. So there's only one way to find out is what I would say about that. Just test him out, work him through.

Speaking of Wendell Carter Jr. We did a magic preview podcast as I want to do before the season. And we talked about how they're likely starting five, assuming that Jonathan Isaac continued his, his transition to a non-playing career of something would be Jalen Suggs, Markel Fultz, Franz Wagner, Wendell Carter Jr. And Paolo Banqueiro that lineup has barely played at all. Um,

If at all, the entire season probably hasn't played at all. And since then, we've had the emergence of Bowl Bowl, which has been absolutely delightful. Markel Fultz is back. Jalen Suggs is hurt. And Mo Wagner has replaced Wendell Carter Jr., I think, temporarily in the starting five. I'm ready for that experience to be over. And Mo Wagner's been okay. Do you want Mo to let it go?

Yeah. Mo Fagner has been fine. Just Wendell Carter Jr. is good and has had a nice season. And the magic are eight and three in their last 11 games are up to 13 and 23 after starting five and 20. They are 24th in offense for the season. So not quite on pace to break their Joe DiMaggio level streak of, I believe in a row at 20th or worse in offense 26th in defense. And if you look at this eight and 11 stretch,

A lot of it is they've made more threes and gotten better shots because it turns out Kevin having guards who can dribble is a nice thing in Cole Anthony and Markel Fultz and opponents are also missing every jump shot. So there's a little bit of fool's gold here, but let me, let's zoom out. How are we feeling? Are you, are you team play in or bust or are you team bust, bust, bust, bust, bust for the French kid? So,

I, there's not a daylight between those two things. I'd love to have big Victor, but we also have bold bowl. So, you know, we don't want to downgrade in that spot. Right. It's interesting because you mentioned the play in and sort of the expectation of the season. When I was, I was reading a bold bowl.

And I saw a quote from Mike Malone that was really fascinating about how the bowl bowl needed space to find his game, to operate. And he couldn't get that in Denver because they're trying to get home field, home court advantage in the playoffs. That's what they're trying to get. They're not trying to develop bowl bowl. They don't have the minutes to do that. They don't have a laboratory. And what I think is a bit special about this team, Zach,

is it is a laboratory it's a sandbox for a bunch of really talented young guys to find their style find how they play together and that to me is more important than whether or not they make the play and there's going to be plenty of time for that we're going to get to Paolo here in a second and what his his floor is and his ceiling is and Franz as well but

I saw a stat with tracking data when I was getting ready for this. This just blew my mind. Right now, the Magic have four players who have five possessions per game or more as the pick and roll ball handler. Four? Four. It's the only team in the NBA like that, I believe. I tried to do the math. Couldn't find anybody else. Franz, Paolo, Cole, and Markel.

And the ringer had a note that Bobo is the only ball handler on pick and roll over seven feet tall this year. Right. Like there's something here. There was a great Jake Fisher piece about this team last week, I think. And there was a quote from an executive who said everybody talks about positional basketball and the magic are actually the only people who are just rolling the ball and saying, you know what, we're actually positionalists.

There's two lottery picks coming into this team this year, this summer, next summer. And I knock on wood, knock on wood. You get that bull's pick. You get that bull's pick from, from the, from what we're now going to call the Vucevic heist on this podcast. No, we call it the Wendell Carter trade. Either way, either way naming after the best player in that trade. And that would be, it's fair. And so I think there's a real, a real identity to this team. Um,

with Markel coming back at the last 15 games, fourth in the NBA in points off of drives, Markel's ability to drive into the paint and then pass off of it is really special when you consider the fact that Franz and Powell are really good at driving and then shooting from there. They lead the NBA in contested three-point shots. So we know there's kind of a, and it's funny because- On defense? Like, like contesting on defense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you add that in with our, our, our length, um,

We're running distance, top 10 distance covered. And I think that a lot of times, whether it's on with you or Bill or Cillo, I've always in the past had to say like, oh, well, you know, they're really trying to build this as a defensive identity. This is, you know, four or five years ago. And that was always a cope for the fact that they can't shoot and they can't create shots. Right.

And I think now there's some real, there's always been good ideas and not the good players behind it. When I was Googling, doing some research on the magic of positional basketball, I found an article from 2017 that was like, the magic are going to usher in an era of positional basketball with Jonathan Isaac and Wesley Wundu. And it's like, oh, wait, they just didn't have the horses for it. So this is, the pieces are there for something I think is honestly quite special. I thought you were going to say you found an article that,

trying to explain how bianbo vucic vodka aaron gordon that was a good idea that whole thing was gonna work um all right so let's talk about some of the players you just mentioned yeah wagner franz but i can't believe we have multiple vagners on his team would i say wagner just assume i mean the actual one that matters about the brawl the other night

Or the movie Hustle, the Adam Sandler vehicle Hustle, which Mo Wagner is the star. That's right. He was in that. Franz Wagner and Paolo Bancaro. Awesome. Great foundation. They are in, I think, 700 and something minutes together, minus 17 for the season. That's great. That's great considering the surrounding talent. Like those two guys are really, really good. And.

It just seems like Franz Wagner never has a bad game ever. He's super consistent. Both ends of the floor does a little bit of everything, does whatever you need. He'll randomly like get you 30 in a game where maybe Ben Caro isn't cooking or they didn't have the guards. He'd like randomly explode for a 30 point game. Those guys are are awesome. And to your point about positionlessness, because they start Ben Caro bowl game.

and a center, they often have Paolo guarding, sometimes point guards. And that carries over to the other end where those guys have to guard him

And he hasn't been able to exploit that size advantage yet. Like if the magic had to stop, I mean, like they might, the other team might not be able to extricate themselves from that matchup. He hasn't been able to exploit that in the post yet, but he he'll get there. Like he can do he's he hasn't hit the rookie wall, but he hasn't kept up that insane pace from the first 15 games of the season. But Paolo Banqueiro is going to be an incredibly well-rounded offensive player who can do a little bit of everything. Shoot threes. The three isn't there yet, but it'll get there.

post-up, ISO, pick and roll. Just those two guys plus potentially two more lottery picks is a very, very exciting foundation. I've always been a Wendell Carter Jr. guy. He was in my six most intriguing players column at least once before the season. I think he's made a leap this year at sort of using his physicality a little more. Like he'll phase up from the elbow and just kind of drive through people, getting to the line more. And...

They really believe in bowl, bowl. Like this is not a novelty act to, to the Orlando magic. And it shouldn't be like, I don't know what he is. I don't know if he should start. And you've probably noticed there's a lot of games. He doesn't finish like a lot of close games. They won't have them on the floor.

I don't quite know why that is other than positionally. It's a little cleaner when Ben Carroll can just be a power forward and guard power forwards, but they believe in bowl ball as a real thing. You, this is, it's weird. It looks weird. It looks like it shouldn't be as effective as it is. Like when he gets going in the open floor,

It's like, oh, this is all about, is this going to work again? And then it's like Eurostep, Crossover, Float. Oh, it worked again. Like it's working. I don't know how, I don't know what it is, but are you a believer? Are you a Bull Bull believer? I'm a huge Bull Bull believer. And it kind of speaks, Bull Bull is kind of the final form of everything that this front office has tried to create, which is high ceiling, long,

wingspan, as we know. There's a reason, you know, I saw Nick Nurse quote about this a couple weeks ago where it's not just the length, it's the physicality behind it for the entire team. And I think that's what's going to eventually get this team to an elite level is just the body types all over the place. Bull Bull is effective field goal percentage, I think is around 640 at this point. Leads the team in true shooting percentage, defensive rebounding percentage, obviously block percentage. You know, I think that there's

it almost became, it almost started as a joke

being compared to to victor one biama but like it's this it's generally the same skill set right um and he you know the ringer wrote about this last month and in catch and shoot percentage is is i think he's shooting around 60 percent uh effective field goal percentage in that space as i said he's handling the ball and pick and rolls which is incredible uh he's as far as his height goes the only player with comparable numbers over 500 minutes is dirk

And I think we're having trouble processing this. And obviously, Paolo has stolen the shine. Franz has stolen the shine. But there's a real... I mean, I was talking to Steve Cerutti on the phone last night. First of all, I love that you and Steve Cerutti, Ringer colleagues, are just probably regularly being like, we got to talk about the magic for 25 years. I'm sorry, honey. I know you're almost about to give birth. I got to squeeze in...

15 minutes. He just had a baby too. And so we're just going to meet up in the middle of Connecticut because I'm in Westchester and he's in the middle of Connecticut. We're going to meet up and like, I don't know where we can get anything for Gary. Do you think we can get anything for Gary Harris, Steve? What kind of trade value is Gary Harris? Two firsts?

Two first a couple seconds. We're going to have, when we make the play in, we're going to have two newborns that are chilies in central Connecticut, just sort of propped up, feeding them chicken crispers. And we're like, hey man, we're just going to watch the play in for a little bit. I'm a total believer in Bull Bull. And he's part of the core. He's part of the core. He's not the focal point of it. I mean, Paolo to me,

What he does, and you mentioned how Franz, it seems like he never has a bad game. The floor on these guys is so high. And what's amazing to me, especially with Palo, his ability to get to the line right now establishes that he's going to be special for a long time. That's a pretty sticky stat. Are you aware of the rookies with the, have you seen this list? The rookies with the most free throw attempts since the merger? I have not. Okay, let's go through it. David Robinson, Michael Jordan, Shaq,

Blake Griffin, Paolo Bancaro. That's the list of the most free throw attempts for rookies since the merger. And if you think about those guys, I was going to get, obviously Michael and Shaq would have been the first ones I would have guessed. Blake makes sense. David Robinson comes in the league looking like the freaking Terminator with a face-up game that was unstoppable for centers. That makes sense. Paolo doesn't seem...

as sort of ferocious as those guys, but he's very, he's a, he came into league as like a tank. Like he's a tank and he's got touch on bowl. Yeah.

You mentioned the Dirk numbers. I obviously that's way beyond Dirk is a Dirk just got a freaking statue, which looks amazing. Of course, of course. I'm just, what I'm saying is Dirk fit into like a template of NBA player, like pick and pop big post up big bowl, bowl, just kind of like gets these points randomly. Like he makes like little 14 foot jumpers along the baseline and chaos situations, the transition stuff. And you mentioned the shot blocking.

He's pretty disciplined staying down. And he's also so tall that you'll see like once a game, he'll be like 10 feet off a so-so three-point shooter, kind of daring him to shoot. And the guy would be like, oh, I got plenty of space to get this off. And then the whole jump and sometimes block the shots. Like, oh my God, I think he's part of the core too. And you mentioned the contracts.

He has a non-guaranteed deal for next year for like $2 million. They can't extend his contract. It's too short of a contract, so they can't do that. Bamba is non-guaranteed for next year. I think Bamba, this is his best season, I think, so far in the NBA. I agree. Jonathan Isaac is non-guaranteed into perpetuity. Gary Harris is non-guaranteed for next season. They could have...

like two max slots almost this summer. Not quite, I don't think, but close, depending if they just waive all those guys. I think Bamba will be an interesting name at the trade deadline. Although if you look at the numbers, like their best lineups in this eight and three stretch are like Bamba, Franz Wagner, and like Admiral Schofield's plus minus is off the charts. And Bankero gets in there sometimes too. They got a lot of interesting decisions to make

And I think most notably, the biggest one is Bankero. You mentioned all the pick and roll ball handlers, right? Bankero, Wagner, all this. Are Fultz and Suggs and Cole Anthony sneakily extension eligible this summer and will want a good chunk of change?

Are they the guys we're rolling with at guard? Do we need better guards if Bankero and Franz can handle like this? Who would those guards even be? I think the organization is still super high on Fultz as like a legit starting point guard on a good team.

And Suggs, I mean, it's starting to become an issue. He's only played 58 games so far. Where are you on that trio of like, is that what we're rolling with for the next three years? Well, it's a couple of things. Number one, what do those picks become? Do we feel like the draft is deep enough to...

get us in position where we're going to have a start a day one starter next year, or do we package those for something? Um, I'm high on Fultz. As you said, the, the organization is that, that makes sense to me with subs. He's, he's got the injury again. He's shooting it better. He's shooting more mid range and better for mid range than he was last year. Um,

Weltman came out and said, basically last year, the analytics said he was elite defensively when he was able to play. I know what that should look like. So let's give him a little more, a little more rope in order for him to succeed. But obviously the situation you're monitoring, I don't know. I mean, it was interesting. Uh, I was listening to some of the players talk about how before the season, Jamal Mosley, who deserves a lot of credit for the creativity that goes on in the court right now. Um,

I've just been so impressed. And also keeping it together when they're five and 20. And you can even see, I mean, talking to people around the team and just watching their bench, like they're super engaged in each other's successes. He does deserve a lot of credit for that. Yeah. And so the way Paolo is being defended is,

I mean, they're sending two guys at him all the time. He's being defended like an all-star already. Like that was, that was happening in November. The guard play is going to be incredibly crucial. And when I was talking to, I was talking to Roussel and Cerruti last night, and it's like,

Okay. Yeah. Magically, magically, if we could wave a wand and buddy healed is able to knock down shots like that'd be great. But like, it depends who's available. Would I try to package a bunch of stuff for Trey young? No, by the way, Trey young has 13 plays a game where he's the pick and roll ball handler. That would mess up our little, our little stat, wouldn't it? And so I don't know. We do. We need more shooting, which has been the problem since the Rob Hennigan's

I foolishly believe that shooting improves at the NBA level. That was kind of the original scene of the entire Magic rebuild the first time after the post-White era, something we've litigated on this show. I know. I go back through some of the transactions every time I have you on just to be like,

oh my god that's right they got that pick then they traded it then they got it back then they traded it again like you know they had the rights to tyrese maxi and they had the they had the tyrese maxi pick it went back and forth like four times it's just it's it's and then you think in a roundabout way the thunder traded serge abaca for shea gildress alexander and five million picks and on the flip side the magic traded

Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis for Terrence Ross in the 25th pick in the draft. I'm just saying.

I want to address that because part of the awkwardness of the middle of that of the last decade was ownership mandate to make the playoffs. It was we're a drifted seed. We have to figure this out. We got to get the eighth seed. Let's chase it. So you have Scott Skiles coming in, hating all of his players, trying to quit midway through the season, feuding with Tobias Harris to the point that gave him away for nothing. Right.

That is what concerns me about this whole thing. I saw a debate the other day. It was like, why isn't Palo getting enough shine? Let's all just let these kids grow. We don't need to accelerate the timeline. And that's why it worries me, the idea of making a trade for a big guard or something. It accelerates the timeline in an unnatural way. Let these guys develop. Don't do the old Depot trade 2.0, where you're just trying to get assets and you're trying to accelerate the timeline. I'm of two minds about...

on this sort of stuff because all the the contracts as we talked about were really good and we're going to see with cole anthony i think he probably wants a starting job probably wants more of a role just from reading some of the people who run the magic more

We'll see where that goes. Maybe he'll get packaged in something. I love him. I think he's a closer. He wants the ball in his hands late. He understands catching two basketball. I really like the way he moves on the floor. He's tough as hell, too. One of the best little guy rebounders of the last 10 years in the NBA. Loves to throw himself in there. Great.

Great in the locker room. But I just... I don't want to accelerate the timeline. And so I don't... I think giving it another year. But what's interesting to me, Zach, and maybe I'm just totally stupid. I've asked our NBA people this before. But in the NFL, when you have...

A group of young players under rookie contracts, which are really, really advantageous when you consider quarterback salaries in the NFL. The new thing is we'll just surround them with superstars or surround them with really high priced guys as soon as you can, as soon as you can.

And so I'm wondering like why maybe it's, it's maybe I'm just totally missing it, but like, I do think it's up maybe year three, if, if all of these guys are still, you know, nobody signed their super max or whatever, that it comes time to take on huge showers, take more risks. Like, is there a team building case to maybe in the middle of next year, push our chips under the table? Because it's like, okay, Paolo Franz still on a rookie deals. Like how has that team building stuff changed over the last few years?

Yeah, it cuts both ways, right? I mean, you saw the Pelicans try to do that around Anthony Davis. They realized we have a transcendent talent.

we're afraid that he's going to want to leave. Let's, let's spend all of our assets to make our team good now. And with the exception of one mini playoff run, which was fun, it didn't work. And he left. Then you have a team like Cleveland. Who's like, all right, we have these three young guys. One of whom Mobley, we think is potentially a top 10 NBA player someday. Donovan Mitchell's available. By the way, a guy that I thought maybe the magic should at least like kick the tires on for this very reason. Yeah.

Let's just go get them and accelerate our timeline like that. So it can cut both ways. But I think if you're talking two, three years from now, I think...

I think by then Wagner and Banker will be good enough that that's absolutely something that they can look at. It's just trying to figure out, OK, what guy, what position, what kind of skill set? Because you said that the sort of those two guys by themselves are unique players for how versatile they are and just the weirdness around them.

And the belief level that the team appears to have in Fultz and Suggs, it would make it interesting. But I think there's a case for that. And also, like those two guys, A, those two guys are that good. And B, every organization is different, has its different history, different context. With all due respect, this organization has been so depressing and irrelevant for 10 years that you know what?

If it's the right kind of age, the guys, the guy you're chasing, if it's not like a 32 year old, if it's the right kind of age, let's have some fun. Like, what are we what are we doing this for? You know what I mean?

I agree. I do, but I do. I don't know that the France came on slow news day, my show three weeks ago and just talking to him about the vibe around the team. And I love that interview. I thought the way he processes basketball is so special and unique and why he went to college basically to learn the American game. Cause he thought he already kind of knew the European game, all that stuff we can get to, but yeah,

I'm just glad I'm not making this decision because I think part of this is letting those two guys thrive. And then also, by the way, figuring out what

is the complimentary piece because we don't know in a year and a half. These guys' games are developing so quickly. It's hard for me to say, okay, obviously any team needs more shooting, right? Like it's like the NFL. It's like everybody needs pass rushing cornerbacks. Mina and I did a draft needs thing and we just kept going, oh, pass rushing cornerbacks. And it's like, oh, wait, everybody in the league needs it. So like for us, yeah, we need shooting. Wait, a pass rushing cornerback? No, no, no, pass rush and cornerback. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, you can get pass rushing cornerbacks, but yeah. I was like, that's a new, I don't watch football anymore, but that's a new thing. No, no, no. Pass rush and cornerbacks. That'd be great. If, if, if, if the new copycat thing in the NFL became blitzing your cornerbacks routinely, it'd be a lot more exciting game. All right. So,

I don't, I it's, it's hard for me to say, let's push our chips in the middle of the table until we see what these draft picks become and who's even, who's even available. I'm intrigued to see it. And by the way, like once, once those lottery picks, if we use both of them, like we're going to have to make some moves just to free up minutes, you know? And so what does that become? Maybe your pick won't be a lottery pick.

If you make the play in the playoffs, you know, maybe stream big. The Bulls, the Bulls might. Well, you also you also are four games out of the play. And it's it's it's not a it's not a small it's not a small gap right now. But you mentioned like who's the guy? And I've been sort of long tinkering with the guard situation. Like I'm just I don't I'm not convinced Fultz and Suggs.

are high level starting point guards or guards. I don't even think Suggs is a point guard, which is fine. I think Fultz with this, with the rest of the core can work. And his play over the last six weeks since he came back or whatever it's been has started to make me wonder if I was wrong because he, it's in a bizarre way, whatever happened with his jump shot,

Which looks better now. It's not a weapon, but it's not like a total black hole liability. Shooting well from three and mid-range again. I wonder if whatever happened there, kind of like he's had to learn to be really, really creative in unconventional ways and tight spaces and like along the baseline and using re-screens and change of pace. And that stuff has actually helped his game a lot and helped him

kind of wiggle his way to passes and passing lanes that wouldn't exist otherwise. And like, if the jumper just ever stabilizes as okay, defensively, he could be a monster like the athleticism, the speed, everything is still there. He's making me wonder if what a journey that would be if he actually becomes a good starting point guard in the NBA, because without a, without any jump shot, it's hard with the jump shot he's got now it's possible. And the rest of his game is really rounded out. Well,

Totally agree. I was just in an interview with him quite recently where he was talking about, maybe other people talk about this and I miss it, but I thought it was really insightful where he talks about

basically like even just giving guys brief touches, give and go touches, just gets the energy up and how much he's able to distribute it. There's an oomph there. He understands aggression. He understands how to get guys involved if they're not. And I'm not talking about, you know, making sure that, that, you know, some guy who can't shoot, shoots a 20 footer. It's more just like, let's get these guys moving. And I think he understands that. And for this team, that's pretty important because there's a lot of movement. There's a lot of uncharacteristic sort of, um,

again, positionalist stuff. Like he is the way he's able to move on the court, the way he's able to drive. There's just so much there. And there's a culture here that I think Markel fits into. Quinn Richardson was saying, as he does our TV stuff and one of the magic pods I was listening to, he was talking about, you know, Wagner's was over the winning streak, was leaving the NBA and charges taken. They're the best clutch team in the NBA over that, over that mark, basically, if you look at offensive efficiency.

And Quentin was saying, I guess there's that's, that's what culture is. That's, that's what winning basketball is, uh,

And that's something, the little things are not something the Magic did for a long time because it wasn't, you couldn't do winning things in close games because the Magic weren't playing close games. And I'm intrigued to see how this all develops. And I think that Fultz in a weird way, not in a weird way, in an overt way, can be the engine for that and be the middleman for that. I thought they would make a little bit of a leap this year as a team. And I think they're under pressure to do it, which is why I think

if they had their druthers they would try to make a run at the play-in if health allows them to and

Maybe next year is the year when Ben Carroll gets another year under his belt, where all of a sudden we're looking at the magic. Oh, the magic going to win 38 games this year. Like there there's something, there's something brewing here. And back to the guard thing. I mean, you look at so many big guards have just changed teams. DeJounte Murray, Donovan Mitchell, Tyrese Halliburton. You start to wonder like, who's really the next guy. If you are obsessed with getting a guard and I'm not saying they should be, but if that's the thought exercise, you mentioned Trey young. I've discussed all the rumblings come out of Atlanta. Yeah.

Chris Haynes's piece last week, all of that. You're right that that's just a sea change. Now they liked Trey Young at the draft, the Bamba draft. Trey was taken ahead of Bamba. They liked Trey Young, but that's a sea change from how they play now on offense because it's all, it's Trey Young. It's the Trey Young show, every possession for better or worse. And defensively,

It goes against everything they've kind of been building with length and all that. But as we've seen with the Raptors, and there are a lot of connections between Toronto and Orlando, you need shooting and offense. Like all this length and stuff, it's like, it's nice and it's cool and it's sexy. And it produces lots of think pieces. You need some shooting and offense. But then defensively, it's like, okay, well,

Trey and Paolo teams are going to go at that combination in the pick and roll over and over. Can they handle it? And actually think Bankero has been better defensively this season. Yes. Then the prognosticators kind of made him out to be coming. I think he's fine defensively. Like I remember when the Warriors were thinking about trading for Kevin Love,

And internally, they're like, well, I mean, teams are just going to kill Steph and Kevin Love in the pick and roll every time down. Like, I don't think of Ben Carroll like that. I think Ben Carroll is going to be a pretty solid defender, which gives you more flexibility. But Trey Young is a sea change. Zach Levine would be a sea change and makes a ton of money. Like, I don't know who the guy is. Maybe you're right. Maybe you just like, let's roll with these guys for... Just wait. Just wait a year. Just wait a year. There's no reason to accelerate the timeline. I want to bring up something you touched on.

Paolo's improvement at the NBA level at certain things has been stunning. He's getting, obviously he's getting to the line way more than he did at Duke. He's handling the ball and the pick and roll more than he did. His defense is better. I ran into somebody in my football travels over the summer who is, who knows, who knows things about his Duke experience. And they said that consistent energy in pass,

college was sometimes a problem. And that was something they didn't know whether or not getting in the NBA and getting in the flow, whether or not that that was going to change things. And it has, he's playing lights out. Like he is, he's bringing it every single night. I have no concern. They were saying, you know, basically that, that there, you know, within five minutes, you would know either,

Paolo was going to be, as the Duke, was going to be capable of some of the most athletic stuff you've ever seen on an NBA court, or it just wasn't his night. And there wasn't really a switch that got flipped in the second half or whatever. It was just either his night or not. That's not happening at the NBA level. He's playing really well. And I thought it was interesting. Terrence Ross said this earlier this season where he said that Paolo's game, it's like the game that Julius Randle has worked really hard to develop.

And Paolo just has it naturally. And I thought that was such an insightful thing. Threes, bully ball, like all the stuff that Julius has worked hard on. Terrence Ross basically saying that's Paolo's natural game. So I guess the implication there is that you can you can build on that and that that's the floor. Thought that was interesting. And so I want Franz and Paolo to develop a scores before I figure out what the complimentary big swing is.

To me, Bankero, though, there's a lot less stasis to his game than there is with Randall. There's a lot less, I'm just going to hold the ball on the wing and jab step for eight seconds while nothing is happening around me, which is not like Julius Randall has made that work. I'm not, it's not a slight on Julius Randall. I think there's a ceiling where that can take you if you're Julius Randall and not like a top 10 player in the NBA.

I don't think Ben Carroll really plays that way. I get what you mean by like, he has the strength, the power, the finesse, the range, all of it, but he plays in a way that I think both him and Franz, I think guys will like playing with them. I think, I think there, there would be fun, fun guys to, to play with. Terrence Ross on notice Terrence Ross's comp on notice for Paolo. Oh, no, I just think I get what he's saying. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna,

I'm not going to just call out the longest tenured Orlando Magic player. Human torch? There's someone else in the league whose team, oh, when Jordan Clarkson makes his first shot off the bench or his first two shots, or he's actually starting this year, when he makes his first two shots, the Jazz broadcast will say, flame on, flame on. I'm like, we can't have these two guys be both essentially the human torch. Only one could be the human torch. And it shouldn't be a Terrence Ross because...

The name with like Terrence Ross hasn't really been the human torch for a couple of years, but I like that the Magic's broadcast team, who are amazing, are just so all in on calling him the human torch. Like teams are terrified when Terrence Ross comes off the bench.

I agree. I also think, by the way, Terrence Ross, oldest player on the team, Jake Fisher reported that there's a maybe the Lakers have had long, longstanding interest in him. I think he might be the kind of guy who who moves on.

Sooner rather than later. If we're looking at possible departures. Yeah. We'll see. I'm sure that will save the Lakers teetering. That's what I was going to say. Like the, the, the LeBron winning is in my DNA. I'm not going to stand up to losing basketball. Well, here comes the human torch, baby. Showtime. Showtime. Lakers are back. Now we've got some lasers on this team. I love Terrence Ross. Any other magic thoughts you want to get out there? Cause then I have a football question for you. Uh,

No. I mean, the only thing I had in my notes I didn't bring up is I just want to talk about how special Franz is. And he was on the show, as I said, a couple of weeks ago. And what I asked him, because I'd heard him talk about this earlier in the season, is that he didn't learn pick and roll basketball until he was 16 or 17 years old. And he said that one of the reasons he wanted to go to Michigan was because

because he wanted to learn ISO ball. He wanted to learn all of these things. He thought he'd gotten such a European basketball education. They wanted to blend it with America, which I thought was fascinating. We talked about, you know, in football, especially football coaches, we talk about this a lot where it's like this guy, Ken Dorsey, the OC of the Buffalo bills. I did a profile of him in, in August and,

And he basically was in every offense you could possibly imagine. You can't write the story of football without the offenses that Ken Dorsey has been over the past decade. And so for someone like Franz, it's not just being a smart basketball player. It's about being put in position to learn more about

And being around people. And I thought that was just so... It was so fascinating to be able to blend that. He also said, frankly, at Michigan, he learned how to talk shit. Like, he really did learn how to talk shit. And that appears to be an American thing. Although, although, I've seen...

Sometimes when European guys are on the court together, they get at each other in a really funny way. Like when I covered the Knicks for two years, I don't know if this is friendly or not. Danilo Gallinari was just going at Jonas Jurebko in a really aggressive way that didn't seem fun to me. And I didn't know if there was some Euro basket thing that I didn't know about. And I'm just, I was laughing. I was like, uh, this seems a little aggressive, but I don't know if it was friendly or not. I'm just so happy that,

That Jonas Drebko came up on the Low Post podcast in 2023. I have not thought about Jonas Drebko in a long time. And Danilo Gallinari, because it was that Jonas got in in garbage time and Danilo kept sarcastically saying, this is when writers were able to be courtside, Gallinari kept sarcastically saying, good job tonight, JJ. Great job. Great job. Way to go, buddy. And I was like, wow, this is tough.

Hey, look, not everyone can be the rooster, man. OK, some people have got to get get whatever minutes they can get easy. So I own the I have the San Diego Chargers in a bizarre neighborhood dad fantasy league that encompasses every possible sport. Can you give me can you give me a Chargers prognosis? They're getting I don't know. They're getting healthier. Like, are they a threat? Are they a real threat?

Well, they don't play in San Diego anymore. So there's their sure that that part of the Los Angeles Chargers are the Los Angeles. They'll always be the San Diego Chargers to me with nature on means nature on means business running it down people's throats. OK, and Stan Humphreys doing stuff.

I had a chargers player in the past, let's call it 18 months on one of my shows. And I brought him in as San Diego chargers player. And I was horrified. And the player was kind of like, eh, happens. I bet. I mean, you'll still, you'll still hear a stray New Jersey nets comment. I like a road broadcaster. Well, like once every 15 games, you'd be like, yeah. And there are eight and two in their last 10 games in New Jersey. I'd be at Brooklyn, Brooklyn.

Okay. Let's talk about the Chargers. They have a special, special quarterback, Justin Herbert, who is as good as any young quarterback in the league, kind of non-Mahomes division. Mahomes is a little older. Really bad offensive coordinator and Joe Lombardi.

head coach who is used to be the analytics darling and has become more normal. He got bullied into becoming more normal, which we hate. And I don't know if there's anybody like that in the NBA where they were just came in as like analytics God. And now they're like, eh, we just got to run the ball and be tough. I like that. Lead into normalcy. I think the only recipe for them and your old dad's fantasy league is Justin Herbert has like a generational playoff. It's like,

a generational player. I picked them to make the Superbowl at the beginning of the year, at the beginning of the year, I've changed, I've since changed that, but I don't think that there's, I think that it needs to be, they've got, they've got the talent. I think the talent tends to be a little bit overrated. They've got some, they've got a lot of elite pieces, but one to 53, not amazing. So I think there's, there's room to grow, but it's gotta be, it's gotta be Herbert putting them on almost a little bit like what Joe Burrow did and just saying, I'm not losing.

Do they still wear powder blue ever? A lot, quite a bit. I'd say it's just a gorgeous uniform. I don't know if they still have the same lightning bolts and all that, but I was always a big fan. The Kellen Winslow powder blue era. That's right. That was a home run. Kellen Winslow Sr. walking off the Orange Bowl in 1981, limping off. Yeah, that's it.

OK, so we got we got some chance. I mean, I get points for you, even if they just win a playoff game. That's helpful for you. Get even getting to the playoffs. Are they into that? They clinched. They haven't clinched. They have. They have. OK, they're in. They have. And the coach gave the owner of the game ball, which is a classic. Please give me an extension move. Oh, yeah. So you guys have in the NFL, you haven't started calling owners governors yet. Not yet. That change has not happened yet.

It hasn't happened yet. Kevin Clark, slow news day. Who we got on slow news day this week? Okay. We have Paul Feinbaum, your colleague. Oh, I saw that. Yeah. I haven't watched that one yet. I saw that was a few days ago. We had Peter King last week. Just a star studded lineup. Franz Wagner from a couple of weeks ago. Von Miller from a couple of weeks ago. It's been a, it's been a really cool lineup.

Are you just getting these guests on your own? Do you have a ringer booking apparatus? Okay. So I think there's a couple things here. By the way, Mina's coming on on Monday. Speaking of superstars.

She is a superstar. Just pointing it out. I'm Ryan Rosillo, obviously superstars. Okay. So I think a lot of them are through my own sort of connections and relationships. However, we have Alison Turner who is absolutely star studded. The guest book is unbelievable. She's the one that got fine bond for me and she is the best in the business. She's the best in the business. But when I need someone,

She will get it. There's one person, one person who we've put our heads together on and she has not gotten. And I guarantee you, she will get them down the road. Just when you have Mina on, give me like two minutes of Nets analysis from Mina. Cause she's been- Is she still doing that? She should be now. I mean, it got depressing-

I'll say this. We took a photo at a restaurant. We went out to dinner, me, her, and Pablo Torre. And the people, eagle-eyed viewers, noticed that on her phone was a score alert from a random Nets-Bulls game in November. And people were saying, who is this sick person? They thought it was me. It was not. It was Nets fan Mina Kimes. Yeah. Well, we'll talk about the Nets on another day. The Orlando Magic someday...

It's all going to come together. Can we quickly, you're so much smarter than me. Can we quickly map out the trajectory? So is it like, I think, I don't think they're, I don't think they're going to make the playoffs this year. Next year, 10 to eight range year after. I think that's fair. Year after home court, right? I mean, there's a lot of variables there. What happens to all these other teams who are above them in the standings, but I don't think that's,

A home court seems aggressive to me, but these things like Cleveland's going to get home court. Now, they obviously made a big trade or could get home court this year. So that doesn't strike me as outrageous. Like you said, you got to see how the draft plays out this year and how these guys develop. But I think-

Are you going to join Saruti and I at our Chili's watch parties in 2025? First of all, I like Chili's. I think Chili's gets a bad name. I will get a quesadilla. It's happy hour all the time. I will get a quesadilla at Chili's and eat it in a disgustingly fast rate of speed and enjoy it and then feel bad afterwards. Marcus Spears, your colleague, came on Sunday to plug Chili's a couple weeks ago. And I just kind of, it wasn't even a plug for me. I just wanted to talk about it.

I look, I used to play pickup basketball and there was a Chili's nearby and we would all go to Chili's afterwards and spend, I'm probably not that much money because it was Chili's and just the amount of fried food that would be on all delicious, all delicious. If I walk into a Chili's, it's a bad day to be a triple dipper is what I'd say about that. Like you're going to get consumed. You're going to get consumed. Okay. So just, just,

put a pin in that triple differs kevin clark thank you sir go magic go magic see you buddy