Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
And now, The Low Post.
of last minute contract extensions quick reviews Brandon Clark four years 52 million thumbs up for everybody Kevin Porter Jr four years kind of 80 ish million with all sorts of guarantee triggers and stuff fine for both good risk good reward Tyler Hero
Four years, 120 million plus bonuses. That's just the going rate for really good players. Nasir Little, four years, $28 million in absolute steel for the Blazers. Bravo to their front office on that one. And then the headliners, the Golden State Warriors. Jordan Poole, four years, 123 plus bonuses. Just beating out the Tyler Hero one. Going rate for good players. It sounds expensive. That's just what it is.
Four years, $109 million with a player option in year four for Andrew Wiggins. A deal that frankly surprised me. I thought he would and could get more, but some players value happiness and certainty. And Andrew Wiggins is not known a lot of either in Minnesota before coming to the Warriors. And that, of course, sets the stage along with the Draymond Green-Jordan Poole incident for a potential last dance match.
season in Golden State with Draymond Green entering the final locked-in year of his contract. The lone, other than Klay Thompson, if you count him, he's a couple years still on his deal. The lone one to not get a new contract of all the core guys. They are the defending champions. They are a historically great team and a historically great trio. Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green. So what happens to them matters. To help us preview the Warriors and the entire season,
The best in the business, the one and only Jeff Van Gundy. It's been a long time. How are you, sir? Doing well. How are you? I'm good. I'm ready. Are you ready? I feel refreshed and ready. Yeah, it seems early. When they moved the start date up to mid-October, it used to be like the last week of October. This feels a little early, but...
You know, with the play-in game and trying to give more days, less back-to-backs, you know, they've moved it up. And so, yeah, I'm ready to roll. I still think of opening day more as November 1st than I do October 18th. Like you haven't even picked out your Halloween costume maybe right now.
Um, yeah, yeah. I don't know about you. Never a big Halloween guy. Now we've we've talked about this. You've said you're never a big Halloween guy, but you were shocked and appalled by Brian Windhorst's stance on turning down the blinds and the lights and being a trick or treater. Come on. That's that's un-American. Like your house deserves to get egged if you refuse when home to give out treats.
I had a conversation about egging recently. And my stance as a homeowner, a relatively new homeowner, is if you as children can outwit me, as long as it doesn't do any damage to my home, I applaud. If you can ding-dong ditch me, toilet paper my trees, do something without me catching you. But...
I will try to catch you. Not to yell or ream you out or get you in trouble, but just to let you know that I was quicker than you, that I was smarter than you. I will try to play the cat and mouse game. See, Texas is a big toilet paper thing, and I tell you there is nothing – I think you should be able to catch –
And just obliterate a child if he throws toilet paper up in trees that you can't reach. So, like, I'm against it. No, there's no, like, ding-dong, ditch, all that, all fair game. But if it's costing me work, and especially when it gets wet, no. I'll just...
My last Halloween take is I got no costume ideas and I'm contemplating going full circle. My first ever Halloween costume back to back years as a kid was the Count, Count Von Count from Sesame Street costume.
And as I've grown older, I've felt that the Sesame Street character that best represents my personality is Oscar the Grouch. And there's a nice Oscar the Grouch costume complete with fake trash can for about 80 bucks. I'm thinking of springing for that. Okay, coach, you've seen a lot. You were on the New York Knicks teams of the 1990s as an assistant and then a head coach where just a lot happened.
What was your reaction when you saw the video of Draymond Green punching Jordan Poole? Yeah, when you read about an altercation, it's much different than seeing it. Some get overblown and then others are underblown. And so I thought it was much worse when you saw it than I expected it to be. And I've said this a couple of times. The thing that a little bit annoys me is that
People and even some players from yesteryear act like this is regular business or it's reported as regular. This is what happens. You know, no, it doesn't. At least in my experiences, not even a little bit. And especially between players of such different sizes. The two I've seen, one was on a plane and one was in practice. Both players.
There was a push, then there was a backing up period where both guys got their hands up and they were able to protect themselves. Then they threw a couple punches, it was broken up quickly, and then it moved on. But they were two guys of similar size. I have not seen a teammate fight where it was a big guy and a small guy, and the big guy swung on the small guy.
I've never seen that before in my experiences. Was the practice one you allude to the much written about Xavier McDaniel, Anthony Mason at training camp? Yeah. Yeah. And it was the first drill of the first practice. And it was a rebounding blockout drill. Dick Carter and I had the guards at one end and Paul Silas and Coach Riley had the
the bigs at the other end. And, you know, if you've ever been with guards, guards are sort of going through rebounding drills and they're sort of, you know, I won't go too hard if you won't go too hard. Right. And so they're preserving each other's body at the other end though. And, and as coaches, all I could do was hear because I was working with the guards, you're hearing these, it felt like Brahma bulls were banging into each other.
And then all of a sudden, you know, the it was on and, you know, it only lasted a few seconds. But I think it was the you know, it set a tone for how nasty and aggressive we were. And again, that was you know, that was like that was a physical, physical team. And
We had a lot of guys. We had young guys trying to carve out a career, and we had older guys who knew that their time was winding down. So, yeah, it was very interesting. Now, you go through that roster of guys at that end. Xavier McDaniel and Anthony Mason, okay, we know what those guys are.
If people are not familiar with Paul Silas, I might want to fight him less than the players involved. Paul Silas is and was as tough as they come. And Riley from Schenectady, he might be the smallest of them, but you know he's going to pull out every dirty trick possible. Like if I have to pick someone to fight out of those four guys, I'm not – I think I'm just picking take all my money, take all my lunch money, whatever. I got no good choice.
well he had some bullies at that end you know oakley was down there ewing i forgot who else we had uh anthony bonner might have been down there like we had straight like um you know we had some dudes now now bonner he would have come later i'm sorry but anyway yeah it was uh but again as respectful of a of a fight as you could have in that there was no it wasn't
Somebody swinging on somebody from behind. There's no cheap shots. Now, I'm just glad for both guys that it didn't go very long because you can do damage to each other. That's what I think is getting – just because Green and Poole were both lucky in that outcome –
doesn't mitigate or negate the damage that could have happened. I mean, like literally physically, one being injured and one causing the injury, like physically,
It's nothing to it's nothing to it's easy to laugh when you know the results like of what we're talking about. But we've seen Rudy Tom Donovan and Kermit Washington. You know, we we saw Miritich get his jaw broken by Portis like these can have lasting effects on.
people and their careers. And it's nothing to joke about. Oh, they are so lucky that Jordan Poole is not injured. All of them. Everybody with the team. And from what I've heard talking to people, this iciness that you see in the media comments from Poole saying, you know, we're professionals. I'll leave it at that. From Steve Kerr calling it the biggest crisis they've faced. From Kevon Looney saying Draymond's going to have to earn our trust.
If anything, I think that may be underplaying the level of iciness and tension that they're navigating right now. And that's not to say, like, are they going to trade Draymond? Everything I've heard is they are not trading Draymond. They're just not going to happen. They're trying to win the championship and they're just going to try to ride this out. And unless something drastic happens, like the team just falls apart, they're terrible, like Draymond's going to be on the team all season.
They're trying to win. But my question to you is, as a coach and thinking about this and seeing this and as a coach who dealt with
Not incidents maybe like this, but team-wide tensions and rivalries. I'm sure you've talked to lots of people about this in the wake of the punch video. Like, what are you actually worried about in terms of if there is negativity and tension, how would it manifest itself in our ability to win games? And what am I worried about to sort of limit those effects on our... Just focus on our ability to win games. Yeah, see, I...
As bad as the incident was, I don't think it'll have any negative impact on them at all. I think, you know, they have their two best players. Curry and Thompson are absolute rays of sunshine. Jordan Poole just got paid. Wiggins, he's just a happy-go-lucky type. So...
I don't think it's going to have any negative impact. And plus, Green plays a game that's easy to play with. It's not like he's taking a lot of shots. He's a giver on the floor. Like, you know, he's going to defend and he's going to play terrific help defense. And on offense, he's going to screen and he's going to pass. And so I think the notion that they're going to be in crisis, it's not true necessarily.
I think you have to say those things to make sure Green is aware of how badly he screwed up. But long term impact, even short term impact, I see as negligible. You mentioned Draymond as a giver and the things he does. I'm asking everyone that I come across this now. There's this big, long continuum of Draymond Green thought. And on one end of the continuum is,
He's just lucky that, and these are, I'm being facetious, these are extreme positions. He's just lucky to have landed with the two greatest shooters of all time, one of whom is a once in a ever off-ball movement player who happens to mesh perfectly with Draymond Green and amplify everything he does. And if you put him on a different team,
He's just a guy. And at the other end of the continuum is Draymond Green is perhaps not quite an equal partner in driving winning with Steph Curry, but as important as anybody else is the engine of that team. Where are you on that continuum? Well, I don't look at it as luck, right? I think a lot of complementary players are
are impacted by their situations. Curry would have been great anywhere, right? Like no question. Even Clay Thompson to, to his game, he would have been what he is now with the Warriors. He could have achieved that elsewhere. Complimentary players. They are reliant on who they play with and who they're coached by. And, you know, the timing of it all, like, I don't think that's a negative. And so, you know,
Like you mentioned, Green will be on the team. Of course he will be because his value to the Warriors is far greater than to me. He would have value to another team in the in the quest of trying to put them over the top. So I think eventually they'll come to an agreement money wise, you know, unless they think behavior wise, it's just not tolerable anymore.
But I think they're both fortunate. I think the Warriors are fortunate that Green has a skill set that fits well with their best players and is not looking to be a guy who's a volume scorer and shooter. And I think he benefits greatly because if he was required to score more,
it would be harder on his career. It's interesting you mentioned what he wants because I threw this question at a GM the other day and he told me,
Don't underestimate the value in Draymond not wanting anything else. Not wanting to score. Accepting that, yeah, I'm going to average eight points a game. Like a lot of guys, even if they were gifted with his defense and his passing and his joy in those things, would still say, well, wait a second. I want to average 16 points a game. That's important to me. And him not...
being wired that way is a valuable thing that should be credited. And I hadn't really thought about it that way. And by the way, I'm with you. He's certainly, if you look at Steph, Klay, Poole, Wiggins, Draymond, he's certainly Draymond, the most likely of those five, I think, to not be on the team in a year or two.
Because I do believe all the reporting is accurate that the Warriors are not going to pay $500 million to form a team in the next couple of years. And there's just no way to not do that unless there's a major pay cut one way or another. And the easiest way to do that is to turn $30 million into $0 million.
I would not write off Draymond Green being on the team next year, especially if they have a great season and he has a great season. And by the way, he was the frontrunner for Defensive Player of the Year by a mile before he got injured last season.
And there's all sorts of optionality that they've now built in for themselves. If they decide to keep Draymond, maybe he takes a pay cut on a two plus one. I don't know. They can swallow that. Maybe Klay Thompson takes a pay cut because that's generally what happens as you age. And maybe the number's okay. Maybe they trade Poole. Maybe they trade Wiseman. Maybe they trade Wiggins. I'm just saying I wouldn't write it off. See, I agree with that.
I think people jumping to conclusions like this is it. I think Draymond Green also probably recognizes this is my best shot to play well and be a significant player in this league. You know, you think back to when Curry was out, right? It was a struggle for Green and
When Curry was out, what was that, two years ago? And then, you know, he ended up being out for the rest of the year, too, maybe. And I just think like sometimes and I actually like that, that we're recognizing someone like Green who plays an integral role. You know, I look back on, you know, Horace Grant, right, and his run with the Bulls.
If Green's going to go into the Hall of Fame, I think you can make a case for starting to recognize more of those guys in retrospect, like a Horace Grant, like a Charles Oakley. There are guys like Dan Marley who –
had a you know not on a championship team but like played a significant role like I I think now we're becoming more aware or media wise of giving these guys praise maybe it's because there's more statistics out there that we can't or we have relied on I don't know but you know I think I think there's you know like Horace Grant's got to be sitting at home say what about me I
I won championships. You know, I played a defensive player. I was like a little bit of a 17 foot shooter. You know, now, you know, some people, they don't get into like who was better. I'm not trying to, I don't even care about that. I'm just saying, I'm glad we're recognizing, you know, the third, fourth, fifth best player on a, on a really good team. But I don't think, I think we make a mistake when we try to make it a threesome, you know,
And we try to group them like Steph Curry. His greatness drives the whole bus. That's the whole thing. And that's not diminishing Klay Thompson or Andrew Wiggins or Draymond Green. It's just that I think sometimes because Curry's so amenable to, you know, sharing the spotlight that.
We sometimes like he's still to me underestimated at times, like just how good he is.
Well, it's funny because you just alluded to it before. Boy, remember how much the Warriors struggled when Draymond was playing and Steph wasn't. And the opposite has almost never been true, at least in on-off numbers. When Steph's on the floor and Draymond's off the floor, the Warriors remain awesome. And so that would lend itself to, well, that would lend itself to the sort of like Draymond's kind of lucky. He's a good player who got lucky and now he's considered a great player, evidence, school of thought.
And it's easy to imagine an alternate reality. And I've been thinking about things like this. Like what if the Warriors just decided eight years ago, we don't want to deal with Draymond Green. We're going to make Harrison Barnes our power forward. And we're going to find a rim running center.
you know, just pick a rim running center. Now we're going to find Clint Capella. We're going to find a guy like that. And we're just going to run spread pick and roll with Steph Curry. That's going to be how we play. They would have been awesome. They also wouldn't have been the Warriors because they would have been a little bit more predictable. And Steph would have had to drive even more than he does and do a lot of burrowing into the defense. And who knows what wear and tear that would have put on him. And when you blitz him,
Clint Capella in open space is not Draymond Green in open space. And the difference between Draymond Green and all the players you just named, with all due respect to all of them, and one GM even said to me earlier this week, a different GM, facetiously, facetiously said,
What's the difference between Draymond Green and Robert Ori? To your point about supporting players on championship teams. And he was being facetious. And the obvious difference is Draymond Green is the co-point guard of the Warriors. He's the leader in assists on the Warriors. His playmaking is otherworldly for a big man. And his combination of speed, getting out of screens, speed transitioning into drives in four-on-threes, speed...
the floor and making decisions is almost, if not actually unmatched among big men in the history of the NBA. And it's just, they, but they would have been awesome in that alternate reality. I would describe, they just would have been different and, and maybe different. Isn't quite as good. They would have been worse defensively for sure. Without dream on green, less versatile, just stuff to think about. You don't,
You don't really know if they would have been lesser overall. Because it's all how the roster has to be constructed. If you take out Green, you put in Ori, right? Well, then maybe because of his shooting, you can play another big and cover up in that way. But I love the name of Robert Ori. Again, starting to recognize more and more
even though they played differently, like Robert Oria was a terrific player. And he was a, he had an ability to like green different guys, but like play well with really good players. And not a dream on green though. Not a four time all-star defensive player of the year. No, it's not. No, it's, but yeah, it's,
Yeah, that's – And Draymond – It's not the same. It's not the same. Did you say he was a four-time All-Star? Draymond Green is. Yeah. That's interesting. Okay. Now, part of that is because he's on a winning team. I mean, part of it is that winning is rewarded. I didn't realize four-time All-Star. Yeah, that's very, very good. And it's very hard to do, you know, being –
you know, single-digit score. It's just really hard to do. And his passing, we know he's shooting. He doesn't shoot anymore. His passing and speed are good enough that, to your point, despite the shooting limitations, the Warriors have been able to survive and thrive with him and Looney on the floor, or him and Bogut on the floor, which defensively is just monstrous. And again, it all goes back to they can do that because...
They have the two greatest shooters warping the floor. All these things are intertwined. It's just fun to think about.
So we're talking about the Warriors, and you're optimistic that they will have no ill effects in their ability to win games from all this rigmarole. Let's just go rapid-fire season preview questions, and we'll start right off the top. Jeff Van Gundy, who is your tentative? And everyone wants to hold you to these like they're in pen, and for now they are in pen, but who is your October 17th NBA Finals matchup prediction? Clippers, Boston.
Alright, I like it. They are two of my six teams that are in the absolute inner circle of title contenders. My pick is Clippers Bucks. So why don't we start with the Clippers? Because the pushback I have received upon picking the Clippers is the following. Their model is big two and a really good cast of supporting guys.
When that model has resulted in championships in the NBA, it's typically been because the big two are like two of the top 10 guys in the NBA and one of them is like a top five guy. Is that still Kawhi after all these injuries? Where is Paul George? And then who is the third best player on the Clippers? Who's the fourth best player on the Clippers? Are they just kind of fungible guys? Are they good enough players?
to be on the court, three of them, with Kawhi and PG and beat the very best teams four times in seven games. And I'm saying this as someone who is picking the Clippers to make the finals, but I'm curious to hear your response to that pushback. Well, there's a lot of ifs with a lot of these picks, particularly guys coming off injury. If Kawhi Leonard is healthy, he is a top-ten player. I've always felt that Paul George...
Again, because maybe it's personality or whatever it is, is underrated. I think he is a terrific player that has to do it in the biggest of circumstances. There's nothing holding him back.
from doing that talent-wise. And I think the ability to have two guys like them be so good defensively with their size and strength, it gives them a great interchangeability that they can play a lot of different lineups and combinations to try to give themselves a matchup advantage.
I think you make a great point. I wouldn't even know right now who I would say their third best player is. I think they're going to try to do it with a lot of different guys. I think their depth is, you know, really, really good. I think that all sounds good until you start playing the games and stats are kept and minutes are, you know, everybody gets minutes in practice. No one cares about minutes in preseason games.
This unselfish nature that the Clippers are saying that they have. I go back to the greatest coaching line there is. We'll see, because they're going to be challenged. You know, it's easy to say I'll take less and then actually have to deal with it. You know, and so I'm really interested, but I really like their team, their depth.
I think they have a terrific coach and a terrific coaching staff. I think Ty Lue is outstanding. And so, and I think they're going to be ultra aggressive. Like they have a bunch of guys, they can make moves if they'd like it, they can make, you know, two for one trades or three for two trades. I think they have a future first, they can trade now, which was not, has not been the case in the last couple of years. So there's a lot out there and I, I really like him now.
Could it all blow up? Sure. You know, injuries and, but if they're healthy or relatively healthy, they're going to have a darn good year. Yeah. I'm did I take, I don't know who the third best player is. I mean, I, I probably say Norm Powell. I don't feel very strongly about it. And I don't, I don't care really because if I have two elite players, uh,
and everyone else around them is good, is like a fourth to fifth starter on a good team. I got a bunch of those guys. I don't know how many of those guys they have. Fourth starter on a good team is a really good player. And more to the point, they fit and complement each other in a way that sort of makes it a greater than the sum of its parts team defensively and offensively when they can switch and they have so much schematic versatility.
I do worry about them getting off to a slow start given the injuries and the depth issues and sort of the rotation confusion that will be a national part of their team. And the margin for error for any of these teams is very, very slim before you're all of a sudden in the play-in tournament. I picked Milwaukee over Boston and Philly and everyone else in the East because
you can make a case for a bunch of teams. I'm curious in both conferences who you thought the hardest about as an alternate pick. Like who were the last kind of cuts? Yeah. In the Western Conference, it's just – it's hard to say, you know, the Warriors aren't a hard cut because they have a unique way of playing offensively. They move more, pass more offensively.
in this predominantly at this time of all pick and roll, I so out after it, you know, and so I just I love the idea that they have a different way of playing. So I would say the Warriors without question in the Western Conference. And I like Philly. I like Philly a lot. And Milwaukee, too. I like Milwaukee. But
I think Philly, Harden, Embiid, Maxey, I really like that threesome. It's incredible. I'm with you on Philly. I think they have every – I've talked about them a lot. I don't want to belabor it. I think they have everything they need to win the championship if James Harden shows up in the biggest games. It is incredible how fast – and a credit to their players and their GM and front office –
Six, however many months ago they lost to Miami in such dispiriting fashion with Harden vanishing and all that. It kind of, and then Harden was entering free agency potentially and everything was sort of up in the air to some degree. When people started asking like, who's the next disgruntled star to ask out?
Some of the arrows were pointing, not because of anything he's said or done, just logic to, is it going to be Joel Embiid? And now it's like six months later, five months later, the Sixers are loaded and everyone is like, they're the chic pick to win the title. And I'm not picking them because I just have trust issues with Harden in particular, but I think they're awesome. A team you didn't mention that I want to make sure I ask you about is Denver. Yeah.
Does Denver have enough? And given the realities of building a defense around Nikola Jokic, I think he's an underrated defender, but he's a lumbering big guy who doesn't block shots. He's not lumbering anymore. He's pretty quick on his feet, but he doesn't block shots and he's slower than guards. That's for sure. Can they defend well enough to win it all or are they a tier below to you? Well, I think...
Michael Malone has covered up their defensive shortcomings about as well as you can. You know, they don't play in the drop with Jokic very much because, you know, because of what you said, the drop is sort of centered around someone impacting Jokic.
you know, the back, you know, the basket area well, and that's not his strength. And because of that, they have to do a lot of scrambling and firing out. And they have two guys coming back off injury and, and it remains to be seen how they defend. And then, you know, they've changed their team around a little bit. And I'm really interested to see how that pans out. Like,
You know, I love Monte Morris. I do. I love I think he's a really good player. But do they have, you know, his bones Highland? You know, does he give them maybe something different or, you know, so I just I'm waiting to see how they deal with their roster changes. I'm really interested to see how it goes.
They were in my inner, my six-team inner hexagon, I guess is what it would be, of contenders.
for the championship. Boston, Milwaukee, Philly, Denver, Clippers. And I'm with you. Warriors are set up to be really, really good. And I know some of the projection systems are down on them because they're assuming a lot of minutes for their young guys. Their young guys look ready to be, including Wiseman, to play supporting roles. Everybody's ready if you're playing with Curry. Like everybody. You could name 100 guys in this league that are ready
If they had this, you know, all time, all time, all time. Great. Which he is. And so, yeah, I, I, I actually liked there. I don't really know about Wiseman because I haven't seen him enough in, in,
But Kuminga, he had a good first year. I like Moody. They'll be fine. Poole's getting better. Wiggins is settling into, like you said, a system that is unlike any other in the NBA and takes some time to sort of get the rhythms up. But I love that a Draymond-Poole thing has turned into a mutual love fest about Curry because, you know, the whole basis of everything there is you have to put two guys on him in screening actions immediately.
anywhere within 32 feet of the rim. And by the way, that could happen anytime in any place on the floor, regardless of whether he has the ball. And that bakes in this unpredictability into your offense that Draymond then amplifies because he's such a great playmaker and screener and handoff. It all goes together, but it all goes back...
to that to that reality um all right let's do another another rapid fire it's not that rapid just a semi-rapid fire question um give me a couple of let's say good teams could be teams we've mentioned even already good teams on paper strong playoff teams strong recent track record that you are worried about could be slipping into play-in or worse range
Well, I'm not worried about them necessarily being in play-in game. It's not even a worry. I just – I need to see more of Trey Young and DeJounte Murray together in Atlanta before I project them being like, you know, a no-brainer, you know, team. I just think it's – that's going to be – that's a harder transition to me for Murray because –
He's had the ball in his hand when he plays with young, you know, you'd be foolish for young to be playing off the ball because he's such a great, uh, offensive talent as a passer. Um,
He just, he's a, he's a brilliant player. And so that's the one in the Eastern conference. I'm, I'm really interested to see not in a negative way, but just like, I want to watch it work. And I've always had great, great respect for the job Nate McMillan does. I think he's, if I had to list my underrated coaches, he'd be right up at the top of the list. And then in the Western conference, I,
I am a little concerned about Phoenix. Again, not slipping into the play-in, but just I'm interested in the Jay Crowder situation. It's incredible that there is a Jay Crowder situation. It's really incredible. I just don't understand why he's – even if you wanted to start Cam Johnson, like, okay, it happens all the time where people don't get everything they want. He comes off the bench if that's what Monte Williams thinks is best.
But to sit out and not participate and take away from your depth, I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how that benefits Crowder if he does want to trade and how it benefits the Suns. Because to me, they're not a deep team. And yeah, so I just think he's a good, hard-playing player.
grizzled type of guy and I think his toughness is a great compliment to their best players yeah I don't get it from anyone's perspective so so you don't you don't get to start you don't get a contract extension which I think he wanted and was told we're not doing it um
Okay, come be a 20-minute backup and sometimes 30 minutes. Like you're good enough that you're going to close some games on the right nights, the right matchups on a great team that you fit perfectly. And I like Jay Crowder. I wrote a profile of him two years ago. I don't think it's a total coincidence that winning has seemed to follow him around. Like he's the kind of player that every good team needs. So come be that player. And from the Suns' perspective –
You got a lot of small guards, you don't have a lot of big wings and force.
you just, you can't really afford to lose a good player for nothing. And player for player at the same position trades are really hard to make. Like it's, it's like Jay Crowder for another good stretch for three and D guy is like, well, why? Like if I have one of those, why am I trading them for Jay Crowder? I mean, I already have one. Yeah. And I love, I love the Milwaukee guy. I mean, I know I'm reducing it to three guys, but like,
you know, Butler, Matthews, Crowder. I think, you know, they're all varying levels of health and player at this moment, but like they, they have a, a quality. The Marquette guys. Yeah. What did I say? Milwaukee. I'm sorry. I just love, I love the competitive spirit and the toughness and it's really hard to find sometimes. So, yeah, I just don't, and I don't understand. I got to say, going this back to Durant's thing, like,
I never thought Durant would ever sit out. He may not get what he wanted, but he's back. But I never thought Durant's going to hold out. He loves ball too much and he has limited years. And I think, Jay Crowder, the same thing. Why would you want to miss out on any games right now when –
Your time is winding down. What do you have left in the NBA? Just a few years. You want to maximize them. I think you maximize your ability to make money by winning and by playing well. To me right now, they're forfeiting both, and I just don't get it.
Let's go back to the Hawks because we have breaking news as we're doing this podcast, a buzzer beater on extensions, DeAndre Hunter, four years, $95 million, according to Woj. I don't, there, there may be bonuses or partials or something. I don't know. I haven't been able to read all the reporting. I obviously haven't been able to do anything. We're, we're podcasting. Yeah.
That seems fine. I mean, DeAndre Hunter has not been healthy, and every time he seems to be getting into a rhythm, something, he gets injured, and his jump shot goes up and down, and he's kind of been toggling between, like, off-ball guy, catch-and-go guy, and, like, sometimes I get to do my Carmelo Anthony thing guy, and he hasn't really been good at either of them offensively, but the
He's in my – I have a column I write every year, Coach, called my five most intriguing players for the season. He's one of them. That comes out on Wednesday, so I'll save the thoughts for that. He's got a lot of ingredients that you would want. And in extensions, you generally pay for ingredients and hope and upside. And so that's going to seem like a ton of money, and it does seem like a ton of money. I'm just – this is off the rip. But that's what it costs for even a guy as sort of seemingly unproven –
So fine. But to your point about the Hawks, here's the reality in the East. These eight teams all think of themselves as like locks for the playoffs to some degree. And there's only six teams who get locked in without earning your way into the play-in. Boston, Milwaukee, Philly. I think we all agree they're in. Okay, those are the first three. Toronto, Brooklyn, whatever the hell that's going to be.
Miami, just all they were was the number one seed one shot from the finals last year. Cleveland and Atlanta, the new sexy teams. That's eight. Two of those teams are in the play-in. That's just math. That's just reality.
I already did my tiers, and if you're asking me to pick which of those two go in the play-in, I pick Cleveland and Atlanta just because they're kind of less proven. They have more questions to answer, particularly defensively for the Hawks, but they could easily be the fourth seed. I think Toronto is going to be really good. Miami, to me, has earned the benefit of the doubt of they come out and win more games than people are going to expect and they're tough as s***. And Brooklyn, I mean, I don't know, Coach. Yeah.
I don't know what the hell to do with Brooklyn, but they have Kevin Durant and they tend to win a lot of games when they have Kevin Durant. Yeah, I am worried about the Curry-Joe Harris injuries right now, you know, to start the year. But, you know, I agree. Like, I think Miami's good. Like, I would put them up more so into year three that,
You said our locks, I would move them that way too. One of my favorite teams to watch is Toronto. I love Ananobi. I love Van Fleet, you know, Scott, you know, Barnes. I just like them. I just like watching them. And, you know, I think I would, I got them pretty much in, you know, but I,
A lot could happen, obviously. But I think Miami definitely deserves that. And, you know, Atlanta, to me, defensively, particularly with Hunter's injuries, are up and down. Like, if he's not available, like, who do you trust to get wing stops?
You know, it's not easy. Murray would be the other answer. And he's sort of more of a life point guard than, than a long and point guard, but not a guy you're going to like put on Jason Tatum or something. I mean, you could try, but yeah,
That's the East, and below that you've got, I think, Chicago, Knicks, Hornets, Wizards, Pistons, Magic. In the West, if I had to do the same thing and say, okay, these are the eight teams that are going for six spots, or the eight teams that I think are kind of in that tier, I have fewer questions about them. We've already done Warriors, Clippers, Nuggets. Suns, I'm with you, despite all the drama, are still going to win a lot of games. That's four.
Memphis, Minnesota, Dallas, Pelicans. That's eight. Two are in the play-in, and we didn't say the word Lakers yet. Are the Lakers in that group for you, too? Is that so that we go up to nine? Are they equal or almost equal in stature to the Grizzlies, who won 50-whatever games last year, 56? Lucas' team, Zion and CJ and Ingram, the revamped Wolves,
Or are the Lakers a step below that, hunting for ninth and hope for something better? Yeah, I think they're below. I think, you know, they are banking on the health of James and Davis. And not just health, but playing, like, big minutes in these games. Listen, they're all NBA players. So they're all, like, exceptional in their own ways, right? But when you compare them to other teams, they don't have nearly –
the depth of talent as the teams you mentioned previously. Like they just don't. And I just think like their roster, like I thought Frank Vogel did an unbelievable job with them over three years and Darvin Ham to be able to come in and your first head coaching job. And it sounds great. Like I get to coach LeBron James, who's to me had the best NBA career of anyone ever. And then Anthony Davis, uh,
It sounds like we got those two guys. We got to. We're going to win big. But when you look at the other teams they're competing against, and listen, the good part for all those Western Conference teams, right? Oklahoma City, Houston, San Antonio, and I'm missing one more. Utah. Utah, right? They're not really – they want to improve. They want to win enough to be respectable, but they don't want to win, right? Yeah.
if you're those teams, the, the, the teams that are trying to win, uh, and get in the playoffs and make the play in, you've got what? 16 great opportunities to boost your record. Like you better not, you better not blow them. I think that's part of, that's one of the fun subplots of, of these races being so crowded and those teams being so intentionally disadvantaged. Um,
We saw the Lakers season unravel last year when they lost twice to the Thunder in the first 15 games of the season. Both times, I believe they blew a 20-point lead. Like, those games are big. You got to win those games. You got to think twice about, like, oh, maybe tonight's a night to sit Kawhi and PG. We got the Jazz in town. Like, you go back, you go 2-2 against Utah, and you're 7th in the West. Like, you're going to have some regrets about that.
I absolutely agree with that. And I think also having those teams early in the year where there's nobody beaten down by losing, they're excited. And really, from a coaching perspective and a playing perspective, you're not thinking yet we're trying to maybe not give ourselves the best chance to win. That's a front office thing. Who structured your roster like that? But you yourself as a player,
You're getting opportunities that maybe you wouldn't have got if you were on a really good team. So, yeah, dealing with the enthusiasm of young talent with low expectations is dangerous to me early in the season. Well, and no one is –
fake injured yet at that point. Everyone is available and playing. On the Lakers, I mean, I don't know what you think. I just don't think the Westbrook thing is salvageable. I just don't see any way that it works that's realistic. They clearly have decided we're not trading these two picks for the Pacers stuff, the Jazz stuff.
And maybe there's hope somewhere down the line. The Wizards stink and Brad Beal becomes available. The Blazers stink and Damian Lillard becomes available. But that's all ifs, ifs, ifs down the line. Those two teams have signaled no desire, particularly the Blazers, to take any steps back. I just don't see how Russ improves this team. I don't see how it works. I think it's a sunk cost. I don't know what you think. Yeah, absolutely.
Listen, sometimes things just don't work or and things run their course. It just it happens. And so I think, you know, Darvin Ham has like it's a hard decision. You know, it only got five what they brought him off the bench for five minutes in the last preseason game. That's a hard thing to do. Like.
Not all great NBA players age as gracefully as maybe David Robinson did in handing it to Tim Duncan or Tim Duncan did to hand more responsibility to Parker and Ginobili. It doesn't always go like that. So if he's there to me, he's going to be a starter. If he's a starter –
You know, you want the ball in James's hands a lot because it's easy to say, like, we want Russ to be Russ. To me, that doesn't even mean anything. That's just cliche talk, you know, that we all have to throw out when you're on a team where you know the parts don't necessarily fit. It's hard for Westbrook to be who he is
without the ball and the Lakers would not be who they are if LeBron James doesn't have the ball a lot. And so I just thought it was, uh, way back when they made the trade, I didn't understand from a fit standpoint. Um, and, uh, you know, so I, I just think like some things are bad fits and it's unfortunate. It happens. Um,
I don't know how they're going to get out of it. But I was thinking about this. Everybody's saying like the Indiana stuff. And I wouldn't make that trade either if I was the Lakers. I would be looking for lower cost players. You know, if I was a if I was the Lakers, you know, I would be targeting as my center. Billy Hernan Gomez. I think Billy Hernan Gomez is a starting center in this league.
This is the most unexpected Jeff Van Gundy take in the history of Jeff Van Gundy. If you had told me you have 250 guesses, what player is going to come up in an extended and out of nowhere? I would not have gotten to Willie Hernan Gomez, the MVP of Eurobasket. I think he is, when you look at him, he's got some defensive challenges, right? But
He can rebound, he can pass, and he can finish. And he's the third center of New Orleans. So what I'm saying is I think you have to try to find guys like him. And you know what else he has? He has a joy to him. He's not bogged down with just an attitude of just, I don't know, moroseness. And I think in L.A.,
With expectations and, you know, a lot of strong personalities, you need some just happy-go-lucky but very, very capable players. And so for me, I don't blame the Lakers for not trading, you know, multiple first-rounders for, you know, the Indiana players. But I do think they have to try to upgrade the roster. And maybe it's just...
Listen, let Russ go and find a team that fits him best, and we'll move on, and we'll be trying to find our way to finding maybe undervalued guys that can surround James and Davis well. I hope there's a good end for everybody in this. I hope there's a good end for James that he's playing on a playoff team.
in the last couple of years of his, uh, career. And I hope there's a good finish out there for Westbrook as well. Maybe it's the Lakers. Maybe Darvin ham has magic up his sleeve to make it fit better. Um, but if not, I hope we can find contentment in his last few years in the league as well. I love everything about what just happened. Um,
The entire infatuation with all the big names and the two unprotected picks, the best move they made this summer was Patrick Beverly. Patrick Beverly is exactly the kind of player you're talking about on a more well-known and more accomplished level than Willie Hernan Gomez in the NBA at least. Talon Horton Tucker and whatever else they traded, that was a great trade.
It's exactly what they need. I'm giving it 72 hours. I think Palenka, someone with the Lakers is going to listen to this. And Palenka is going to call and be like, two second round picks for Willie Hernan Gomez. And the Pelicans are going to do it. And they just, I just, I love it, coach. I did not expect any of this. When you think about back to Zubat when he was with the Lakers, right? When they traded him for Mike Muscala. Right. And I don't, I still like,
Don't understand. But it's, you know, listen, it is hard. It's a top five most inexplicable trade of the last 10 years. Yes. And Zubats is exactly the type of starting center they need. You don't need somebody you're going to play 35 minutes. You need somebody that you're going to play to start both halves and maybe he finishes some and maybe plays 24 to 26 or maybe even less. But Zubats,
Anyway, I just I think you have to try to find guys that are out there that the cost, the benefit to you is better than the than the cost would be. And I never thought I always thought the Lakers would be better served just if they don't think it's feasible. And Westbrook doesn't think it's feasible there anymore just to go the buyout route versus the trade route. Right.
Give me a couple surprise teams, one or two surprise teams, teams that are not mentioned in the playoff race much, teams that you think are going to punch above their weight a little bit. I'll tell you, if Oklahoma City, if they want to win and Sam Presti, like,
I don't even know what the term is anymore where they force them to be heard or send people away like Horford. I don't even know what the term is. You guys got to come up with a term for that. Forced illness, injury, whatever it is. You go back a couple of years when Horford was with them.
they were playing pretty good. And then they forced Warford to go away for like the last three or four months of a season. I think it was. And the Celtics reaped the benefits of it. Cause he came in like, I am fresh. Let's go. Yeah. And then, but I liked their team. I am. I'm huge on Josh Giddy. I think, uh, chip England, uh, is going to help him with his shooting. Uh, I saw him make a couple of threes, uh,
in an exhibition game, not that that means anything, but I like their depth of talent if Gilgis Alexander, I don't know what his injury situation is like. I think they're interesting to watch. I think they're well coached. I think they have a lot of players that are pretty good. I think Giddey has a chance to be an all-star.
And I like the enthusiasm they play with. Now, I know they're predicted. I don't know what Vegas has, Matt, like 20-some wins. But they're my team that I'm watching to punch above their weight class. You know, I thought you were going to say Sacramento. Everyone's higher on Sacramento than their Vegas number. Detroit's got a little buzz. Orlando, Ohio.
I like Orlando. I think Orlando is the – one of my – and now this is – I mean, I made this prediction two, three weeks ago. Now it seems easy. I said at least one of Orlando and Detroit is going to finish above one or both of Charlotte and Washington. And now Charlotte's season is tailspinning before it even starts. And Washington, I just – it's like the manifestation of – I think Orlando's got a chance to be solid this year. And you went Oklahoma City. And I got to tell you, Coach –
If they had Holmgren this year, because I think he was going to come in and be a decent player right away. And that doesn't sound like much, but most rookies are not helpful players. I think he was going to be a helpful player this year.
Gildress Alexander, Dort, Giddey is, if you're right about Giddey making a little bit of a jump this year, is three-fifths of the way to like a real NBA lineup. And if you put a couple functional bigs and they got a million rookies and young guys, and they do seem to play really hard and win more games than they should. And I like that pick. I like that pick. Are you worried about the Bulls like everybody else is?
Well, I thought they overachieved in the first half of last year. I think then, you know, the ball Caruso combination of injuries, you know, was devastating because I don't think their depth is, you know, good. And so to me, and then you throw in Patrick Williams injury as well. I should have mentioned that as well. So to me, their chance to remain a playoff team is incredible.
Can Patrick Williams become, you know, can he make a big jump? Because if they don't get a jump from there, you know, then Vucevic has to play, you know, out exceedingly good basketball. But I think the more likely thing is, you know, Williams making a good jump. And then, you know, the Vucevic, you know, DeRozan, you know, then they start having enough,
maybe talent and depth, but they're still thin. You know, you look down, like, how many, if they take them, you know, if Levine or DeRozan get, you know, are out, like, do they have enough offense to be able to sustain? And I don't see it that way, but...
you know, I thought they set expectations so high last year in the first half where they won so many close games and Billy Donovan did such a remarkable job, you know, getting to Rosen and Levine and Vucevic and they were playing, you know, defense. And I thought the Caruso signing was, uh, terrific because you can never have enough, you know, he's big and he's tough and he's, he just knows how to fit, you know? Um,
And the Lakers, again, going back to the Lakers, why they didn't, you know, he wanted to be there. I think they mis-evaluated the importance of him, but I think he showed his importance with Chicago. And so, you know, I just think Chicago may be a little bit, the Eastern Conference is tough now. Good. Like, it's hard. And so I just think Ball's injury is,
That's a rough one to overcome. Patrick Williams has to he's got to be really good. Do you have an MVP pick? I know you hate awards, but do you have an MVP pick? Well, I would go with Donchich. I think Donchich is just, you know, when you put him in a group that I think was closer to the play in than it was to the lock in.
I'm putting him in the locked in because I just think the guy is so great. And if he plays, you know, if he's injured, then I think they have some real issues. But I just think the guy is so great. And yeah, I just I'm with you. My MVP.
People are a little – I think – I've listened and read a lot. I think there's – people are a little down on the Mavs because they lost Brunson who was so integral to what they did. Nobody really trusts Christian Wood. I think people kind of forgot about Tim Hardaway Jr. since they went so far without him. And I get all that makes sense to me.
The gap between their first and second best player is just a Grand Canyon level chasm. Dinwiddie, was his shooting there real after he was so bad in Washington? I just think Luka is so good.
And if I can put shooting and defense around him, I don't really need to overthink that. I think if he plays 70 games, I think they're a 48-52 win team. I think he's that good. We didn't really talk much about the Minnesota-Memphis-Dallas segment, Pelican segment of the West. Any of those teams strike you? Are you higher or lower than what consensus seems to be on any of those teams? Because that's just...
that's that's just a mess a mess to me in a good way it's a nice mess i just it's hard to order it well i i love you know like i love the the mavericks and because don't you i love the way they play i thought jason kidd was so good like he didn't try to you know defense and high pick and roll how about that that's what we're doing right and so i i love that i thought minnesota is so interesting to me um
People are fretting about how is Towns going to guard on the perimeter. To me, he's going to guard as well on the perimeter as he did in the paint, which is poorly. However, the difference is he's now got this guy back there that is the real deal, like defensively.
Like this idea, the one thing I never understood is everyone when Utah, and I think their failures were exaggerated, like they got beat in tough playoff series, you know, like, but this whole notion that Gobert got played off the floor. I couldn't disagree with that more. I thought Gobert over the last few years got so much better at guarding out on the perimeter and
His own guy. But what to me got played off the floor was Gobert's guarding on the perimeter and they're just winding up on the other Utah Jazz guys and driving by them like at will.
And then Gobert has to come and help. And now instead of it being a drop off where Gobert could then react and try to contest, it's maybe Maxi Kleba standing at the three point line. Well, there's no recovery. So is that Gobert getting played off the floor or is it the other guys couldn't guard their man well enough so that he had to help and commit more? Anyway, I am fascinated to watch how
how Towns and Gobert and one of my most underrated players in the NBA, you know that same trade, the two seconds for Willie Hernan Gomez? I would give that to Nas Reed, too. Like, I would give that to Minnesota for Nas Reed. I'm in love with third centers now in the NBA. I think, like, Nas Reed to me, like,
Give me him. And then they had this other lefty. I did an exhibition game with them. They had some dude that was out there with a lefty. I forgot his name now. He looked good. He looked okay too. Like, so Minnesota has cornered the market on centers and they're all different, but I just, I think I I'm listening. I'm not sure where they can go, but I know Anthony Edwards is the real deal. Chris Finch is the real deal.
Individually, like Gobert is great. Towns, what do you call himself, the greatest shooter or something like that. But I'm just so interested to see how that works. And truly, I'm interested to see, can you finish with them in the last six minutes of really close games? And in particular, if they make it to the playoffs in a playoff series. I just can't wait to watch it.
I co-sign everything you said about Gobert. And to your last point, the issue was Utah's guys were turnstiles and Gobert's inability to punish smaller guys on offense, not defense. True. But the one thing I would say about that is when you become so early, and this transition happened in the bubble. Like, you know, they went from,
like running a lot of stuff offensively to Quinn, who's such an outstanding coach, encouraging early jump shots, and they wanted to hunt threes, and they cut down on the number of things they ran, and they have a ball-dominant guard. Yeah, like I think Gobert, to me, became more unselfish, was willing to just screen, roll, stay out of the way. But if you want a guy to punish somebody offensively,
down low and I think you have to be able to that has to be worked out how do you score everybody does post work against guys of same size but how do you go how do you punish smaller guys who are given liberties by the officials to play outside the rules can you
Can you lower your body, you know, like and post duck in and just shoot a little jump hook? Or would you be better served just turning and shooting a jump shot? But you have to be able to punish that switch.
With variety. It can't just be the guard taking the big every time. And you have to have entry passers to get you the ball in position to willing and accurate entry passers, which I don't think the Jazz always had handling the ball. And on time, right? Like, it can't just be accurate. It's got to be, you know, the post game.
it's got to be one of the most well-coordinated game, you know, sub games that you have because, you know, there's more contact allowed down there. The three second rule, there's more variety of, you know, front team and three quarters and double teams. And so, yeah, I, anyway, I hope he's worked on that part because he's going to have room now because towns with his three point shooting and
Anthony Edwards, he's going to have opportunities down there. I just can't wait to see it. Yeah, I can't wait to watch them. I think they're going to win a lot of regular season games. I have them locked in my top six non-play-in Western Conference teams. And it's hard not to lock Memphis in there after everything they've accomplished and the spirit that they play with. There's just a lot of good teams. There's a few bad teams.
There's a lot of good teams and it just should be a really fun year after the years where it just it was just Cleveland Golden State over and over and over again. Then the Durant super team. It's fun to have a year where, you know, 538 did their projections. And I think there were 11 teams with a greater than 5 percent chance by their system, whatever it's worth, of winning the title. And there's usually like five or four or six or so. I think it's going to be an exciting year. It starts tomorrow. What's your first game, coach?
Uh, Memphis and New York and then, uh, Boston and Miami. That's the first week. Yeah. Right off the bat. It's going to be you, Breen and Mark for all three of them for both those games. No, uh, Mike and I are doing, uh, the first one. They don't put us all three on a lot of regular season games unless they're Saturday night games. Um,
you know, that sort of thing. But Mike and I, and then Ryan Rucco and I down in Miami. There you go. Well, it's going to be great to listen to you call games again. Stay safe out there. Love your work. And thanks as usual for spending a little time on this dinky little podcast. Jeff Van Gundy. Thank you, sir. Take care. Bye.