Angela Takes the Stand
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She speaks of her husband and her sons in a very loving manner. She's really presenting today as a sweet, loving mother. She's there to save her life, but also the lives of her family. Lord knows how many people they had actually stolen from. It sounds like the Old West, because they had even gotten involved in poaching and cattle rustling. You can have sympathy for somebody, but...

When you take part in killing eight people, sorry, that all goes out the window. This is The Piketon Massacre, Return to Pike County, Season 4, Episode 19, Angela Takes the Stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Leidiger and Jeff Shane.

It's important to note that George Wagner IV has pleaded not guilty and maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. We've heard testimony from Jake Wagner about his role in the crimes against the Rodin, Manley, and Gilley families. Today we're hearing from another pivotal witness for the prosecution.

An accused killer comes face to face with his mother for the first time since both were arrested four years ago. Jurors today heard from both boys' mother, Angela Wagner. Looking somewhat frail and wearing a drab jail uniform, the 52-year-old Wagner took the stand around 10.15 this morning. Wearing a drab black and white jail uniform, Angela Wagner walks into the courtroom.

James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter from Cincinnati, now with Local 12, was there when Angela arrived at court. So one thing that, you know, her appearance was much different than in the past. Her hair was much longer. One of the other interesting details is that she was shackled much like her son was, but the chains were much lighter, so they made a much different noise on the floor as she walked by. It was more like a clink, clink, clink rather than clank, clank, clank.

Here's Stephanie, who was also in the courtroom during Angela Wagner's testimony. You can literally hear her with her shackles coming down the hallway, which was such an eerie sound. James Pilcher describes the atmosphere in the courtroom that day. The courtroom, you could have heard a pin drop. Jake, it wasn't like that. But when we're waiting for Angela, for the mother of the suspect who's on trial, it was deathly quiet. Because everybody has always thought

that she was the mastermind behind all of this. And I think that was one thing that they were anticipating coming out. And there was also the tension of knowing a mother and her son were going to see each other for the first time with her testifying against him. So there was a lot of tension and very, very quiet in that courtroom when we're waiting for her to take the stand. When she sat down, she didn't even look at George. And George pretty much looked like he had his eyes down the entire time.

Angela Wagner chose to opt out of having her testimony recorded. Therefore, the only people who heard her testimony were the jury, the judge, the respective attorneys, and the family and media that were present in the courtroom. Here's Jeff speaking with Anjanette Levy, investigative reporter and host for Law & Crime.

They opted out because they could. I thought it was completely ridiculous. You're a cooperating witness. You're convicted. You should be forced to get up there and face the music on camera, be recorded. All of these Roden family members got up there and bared their souls and were recorded and

And, you know, why shouldn't he and Angela have to do the same? Does the jury know who opts in and opts out? No, I don't believe so. Because the bailiff would go over and tell the photographer or tell members of the media who opted in and who opted out. Here's forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan.

It's so very easy to forget the rodents. And I guess on a spiritual level, since this all kind of kicked off, I've always imagined every single member of that family in a spiritual form sitting on the front row watching, seeing if they're going to receive any level of justice.

And this is part of that justice. These people, these poor, poor victims, they deserve to have each individual story told when it comes to their deaths. This is a mass murder. Their lives ended at the end of the muzzle of a weapon. And cut short, every single one of them, every single one of them, they'd still be here with us today, I have no doubt. And they deserve their due.

Prosecutor Angie Canepa begins her opening remarks for the day. He said that if anyone else came forward and could tell us something that was consistent with what we had just heard, that would do two things for us, and it would just be stronger corroborating evidence that another member of the Wagner family was giving us the same information without knowing exactly what Jake had said, right?

And that person that came forward was Angela Wagner. -Kanepa comes right out of the gate with the question everyone has been wondering about. -One thing that really stuck out to me was they approached her much differently than they did Jake. At the very, very beginning, at the very opening of her testimony, they asked her point blank, "Are you guilty of taking part in these murders?" "Yes." "Did you help plan them?" "Yes." "Did you help prepare for it?" "Yes."

She said yes. We all are. That was a really key moment.

Here's Mike Allen, attorney and legal analyst who's been following the case from the beginning. I think the fact that Angie Canepa asked the question, are you guilty? And the answer from Angela was yes. That's a big part of her testimony. And I think just getting that out up front lets the jury know that, you know, she's not messing around here. She's admitting to her

her involvement in it, not necessarily firing any weapons, but she was in it up to her neck and that was established early on in her testimony. Special Prosecutor Canepa asked Angela Wagner about her childhood. Here again, Stephanie. Angela said, and this is the first time I had heard this, she has sort of this messy relationship with her own father because she was feuding with him a bit about having sex.

Then she goes to the military and is sexually assaulted, leaves there and gets married very quickly with Billy. And she speaks of, frankly, Billy and her grandbabies and her sons in a very loving manner. You know, she's really presenting today as a sweet, loving mother.

On the stand, Angela isn't quite what we expected. She's soft-spoken and is a bit of a baby talker. And instantly, I was expecting a much bigger presence. Here's Jeff and Anjanette. What do you make of that? Do you think that's an act or do you think that she's kind of changed in jail? I think she was probably A, nervous. B, doesn't want to be there. She may be feeling badly about throwing her son under the bus.

implicating him in these homicides. But at the same time, I think that she's a master manipulator. I think she's good at playing a role when she has to. So you don't really buy it? I mean, I don't buy the meek, mild-mannered part of it. I think maybe in that instance, that was her. But she's just quiet and soft-spoken. Obviously, that's not...

what we've heard from Angela Wagner on the wiretaps or what we heard about Angela Wagner from Tabitha's testimony or Elizabeth Armour's testimony. As we've talked about incessantly, she's been this monster in our minds and certainly in mine. This is the big bad wolf, right? This is her day in court and this is the monster we've been talking about. And we know that is true. She's admitted it. We've heard countless stories about it.

I'm told it's coming. We're going to see the crack in her very soon. But right now, it's kind of like watching a movie in a way. It's almost as though, what's that movie? Primal Fear. And Edward Norton has sort of an interesting dialect and he has mannerisms that are very specific. And then at the very end, when he's proven to be innocent, then you find out that he's, aha, I was lying the whole time. And he doesn't have an accent. He was just...

pretending to be this completely different person. And it feels like she's that right now. And I have to be honest with you, it's very believable. You know, we've been tracking this case so closely. And then you look at jurors and you have to hope they're not buying it.

Here again, James Pilcher.

Prosecutor Canepa asked Angela Wagner about when Jake and George were children.

Wagner testifies that she didn't think George and Jake were getting the one-on-one attention they needed at public school. So she and Billy decided to homeschool them. And they began by interrogating her about how she raised Jake and George, explaining that she homeschooled them both until high school, while their father, Billy Wagner, allegedly taught them how to steal from trucks and trailers. There's obviously a lack of socialization there.

I mean, these kids were raised, and when I say kids, Jake and George, in this kind of insular upbringing where they were homeschooled and didn't really have a lot of exposure to the outside world. Of course, they knew people outside of their family, but not many. They didn't really have a lot of friends outside of, you know, people who worked at the Flying W and things like that. So they didn't have a quote-unquote normal childhood.

And there's questions about the curriculum. They were taught that they needed to be deferential and polite, not to act up, things like that. But it was almost in a way that they were taught these things so that they could get away with crimes, not necessarily so they could be good human beings.

We heard about some of this education in Jake's testimony. Angela Wagner's testimony expands it on the family dynamic. She speaks about how the family would set fires to their properties and file insurance claims.

That was one thing that the prosecution did too. And they did it with Jake, but they did it more with Angela. And that is they clearly laid out how Angela was involved and planned several criminal acts leading up to all of this, including the arsons. They rebuilt the house again up there on Frederica's property. And Frederica said, well, I'm going to sell the property and you're not going to really be compensated for the house. And at

And at that point, Angela said, I don't want anybody to live in this dream house that we built with our own bare hands. So they burned it down for the insurance money. And they walked through all of that. It's interesting because the way Kanepa did this was chronological. And Angela's towards the end of this trial. And so it's almost like

She's confirming all the things that we've heard. They talked about the insurance fraud, the fires, all of these pieces that we've heard about. Angela is like, yes, that happened. Yes, that happened. Yes, that happened. What do you make of that? I think Ms. Canepa was doing that on purpose, right?

to show that the testimony, Angela's testimony, jive with the physical evidence in the case. And I think it was a good strategy because it did line up in her testimony, I mean, pretty solidly. So I think that was a good strategy. And again, as I said, I think Angela came off as pretty credible. The defense leaned in on these planned arsons during cross-examination.

Here's James Pilcher, followed by Stephanie. The defense started its cross-examination by leaning into Angela's previous criminal acts.

including arsons for insurance money, shoplifting and helping steal diesel fuel and truckloads of goods. I think it is going to prove to be very relevant. They're painting a picture of her, although she was very sweet and cute all day. At the very end, cross-examination happened, and that was a jaw-dropper because Georgia's defense attorney puts on a pretty good display of

and kind of talked us through Angela's early years. And then they start getting into where she lives and how they ended up at the house in the end that she lived, which was Puggs. What he was painting the picture for was that, yeah, she has in fact burned down by arson three houses. She had to admit to that today in the court of law. He was like, this house was very expensive. How did you get the money for this house? Oh, wait, didn't the house before...

This house? What happened to that house? Oh, it burnt down. But how did you get the money for that house? Oh, the house before that. Oh, that one burned down. So three houses and I think a garage, all burnt down. You got insurance money for all of them. On cross-examination, the defense asks Angela Wagner if Jake and George were involved in the arsons. Angela's response? Yes, but who gives a damn?

By the way, when all these arsons were happening, George was, one time he was 16, one time George was 15. Like, George was in the home during these shenanigans. Angela also testified about other crimes she's committed with Billy in front of the boys, including pill running. Prosecutor Canepa asks Angela Wagner if she's ever stolen fuel before. Angela responds yes. She was the lookout.

Angela also testified that Billy taught the boys how to siphon fuel. I think that they see themselves as engaging in justifiable outlawry, if you will. That, you know, the government is all bad. We're really representative of the working people.

you know, here in this community, you know, it's cliche, but you know, our family has been here for generations. We know, we know what the real story is here. We know that you're not going to get ahead in this world, in this hardscrabble life that we're leading. You're not going to get ahead in this world unless you, you still going to some hardworking family's home or the farm and robbing them or burglarizing and taking what is not theirs and being able to justify it, that it's, you know, it's a real thing.

Lord of the Flies moment. It's survival of the fittest. And they had done that. Lord knows how many people they had actually stolen from in that community. You think about things just

you know, two by fours and wood paneling and, you know, going out to job sites and essentially robbing hardworking people of the things that they need to get by on. It sounds like the old west because they had even gotten involved in poaching and cattle rustling of all things, you know, stealing livestock. So that's an operation. That's not a one man operation, is it?

that's a lot of work. It's not like little Jake is just running around doing all of this stuff with his crazy father. You gotta have multiple hands on the wheel here. And I think that, you know, this goes to George and this thievery, this nefarious behavior is just like a virus. I think that just it spreads like wildfire through a family because, you know, it's the children bear witness to it when they're growing up in the home.

And they know that this is just part of life, that they're involved in it. And you know what? It was probably normal for them to go and take food out of people's mouths. There's a question of whether this kind of testimony about Jake and George's upbringing is making them sympathetic to the jury. Here again, Joseph Morgan, followed by Anjanette Levy.

for George and the point in his life that he was at. He was still going to be bullied by Billy and potentially by Angela as well. I think Angela is probably chief among sinners here. He just couldn't get out of his own way. And so I guess if the jury can take away some bit of sympathy for George as he's on trial there in the courthouse, I guess that that's probably where it would come from.

There may have been a little bit of sympathy, but I don't think there was a whole lot. You can have sympathy for somebody, but when you take part in killing eight people, sorry, that all goes out the window. It might be an explanation, but it doesn't excuse it. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.

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The prosecution asks Angela about her relationship with her daughter-in-laws. We've heard in previous testimony how George's ex-wife Tabitha was essentially cut off from her child by the Wagner family. We've also heard about how Angela claimed to love Hannah Mae Roden like a daughter, but there was friction over custody of the child she shared with Jake. We've spoken before about how Angela wanted to spy on Hannah Roden's Facebook activity.

She controlled everything.

I mean, control everything, even down to the relationships that, you know, that she had, that her sons had, you know, outside the home, you know, with these women that came into their lives. And when you're in a position of power where you can control people to the point where their romantic interest is trumped by your ability to manipulate them, where you would be willing to, you know, at her direction, compel people

your lovers to give over passwords and access. Just that one point alone is really eye-catching. Angela used this access to social media to share screenshots about custody of her granddaughter with the family. She was also trying to get information on Tabitha, George Wagner's ex-wife. This is not what she said, but she's intimating that she's just protecting her boys away from these bad girls, essentially.

Here's a reminder of what Angela Wagner said when she was recorded by the BCI at the Canadian border. So your relationship with Hannah was good? I thought she was a school brat, but I thought she was a school brat because she really was.

Time and time again, Wagner would bring it back to how her family was everything to her and informed everything she did.

But the prosecution brings up an incident with Tabitha that we haven't heard about before. Here's Jeff speaking with Law and Crime's Anjanette Levy. She also said some weird things about Tabby. Angie Canepa asked her about Tabby and said, you know, did Tabby ever try to poison you or anything like that? She's like,

Yes. And she was just adamant about it. Just like Jake was adamant, like about certain things. She said, she described how Tabby one time put dog hair in her coffee and she and Jake liked a particular type of vanilla coffee. And she said she had her coffee cup one time and Tabby had made this cup for her and she looked at it and she, you know, she, she said, Jake,

Is there, there's dog hair in this coffee. And she was serious as could be. And she said Tabby was laughing about it. She described another time where Tabby had made some Kool-Aid for George that he liked and he got really sick. So she has these like things that she kind of comes up with.

The dog hair in the coffee thing was just astounding to me. She truly believed that. I don't know if it actually happened. I can't imagine somebody putting dog hair in somebody's coffee. It just seems like such a strange thing. But if they believe it, it's gospel.

This belief in the untrue and the ability to convince her family of it is one of Angela's strengths, according to forensic examiner Joseph Morgan. You know, you think about Billy. And, you know, Billy's there teaching young Jake how to hotwire a car and stealing it. Well, she's doing the same thing. It's justifiable for you to...

betray somebody that you claim to love if it's for the greater good of the family. And so, and it's amazing how you can psychologically leverage somebody with information like that, isn't it? Where you can be the driver that you have this indwelling inertia, you know, that carries over to the family and you're pushing in the direction of what you so desire.

It was one belief in particular that Angela held that helped set in motion the events that led to the murder of the Rodin, Manley, and Gilley families. Angela testified she became worried her granddaughter was being abused while staying with the Rodin family. She said, quote, I realized something was happening. Some kind of abuse was going on that needed to be stopped. Hey.

Angela Wagner was asked if she loved Hannah. She said, "Yes, I did at one point, but issues made me feel like s--- was being sexually abused." Angela says she became concerned over signs of abuse and claims that her grandchild would often appear reluctant to leave and return to Hannah since they had shared custody. James Pilcher. Here's her direct quote. She said, "I realized something was happening, some kind of abuse was going on that needed to be stopped."

And she said she didn't trust child services or law enforcement, and neither did her husband, Billy. We've already established that Billy was a doomsdayer. Billy hated police. Billy paid his kids to spot police. Billy taught his kids how to be thieves. So this all fed into it. Although Angela didn't want to kill him. It was some of the ways she would answer. She was like, well, why did you do this? We were protecting him.

And she almost appeared like she was in a frog on the stand. But then when it got to that, it was almost like she was razor white hot when she would talk about protecting that little girl. And then they talked about Angela's past in the Air Force and all of this surrounding ever-present fear of sexual abuse. And it became almost a paranoia. And you could see it in display clearly when she started talking about that.

So the lead reasoning has been that she felt as though it was being sexually molested or was going to be sexually molested. Not that there's ever been proof of that, but that was the reasoning. And that at some point she noticed that Frankie Roden kissed on the lips saying goodbye. And that felt a little strange. In fact, she actually says that

told her mother, Rita Newcomb, who at the time was living next door to her with her grandmother, that she was being touched inappropriately. And then Rita Newcomb repeated that to Angela. And then Angela repeated it to Jake and to the entire family, George and Billy at that point. When Jake found out about it, rather than talking about it with the rodents or anything, they just started putting this plan together to protect her.

and she had to protect the babies. But apparently, Angela Wagner's assertions of abuse were not based in reality. This fear that the little girl would be molested, the prosecution basically says that was something they kind of whipped up in their heads to justify what they wanted to do. They are entitled and feel that those children should be with them and no one else.

There is no doubt that this family wanted those kids to be 100% Wagner, and that's what this is all about. They had convinced themselves there may have been some abuse, but that was basically window dressing for their belief that these kids should belong to them.

Regardless of any actual evidence of abuse, the idea had been planted in the minds of the Wagner family and Angela Stoke the fire. I think that she's probably arguably the smartest one in the crew. And the reason I think that, that's quite ominous, I think. She knew what buttons to press.

With all three of these men in her life, you know, she's probably known how to control them their entire lives, or at least that portion of Billy's life that he, he was with her. She knew where to press how far she could go to attain her goals, if you will, in any of this and anything that she, she set her mind to doing and, and,

You know, she wanted to be the head honcho, you know, in the family, and she was. She told jurors she suspected the Rodens were abusing. Did not take her to the doctor. Said, we didn't believe in the justice system. Didn't believe in children's services. She said by January 2016, her husband started coming up with the plan. They had to be murdered. She said she went to her husband, Billy, with her concerns, saying she wanted to turn in Chris Roden Sr. for growing marijuana.

Billy nixed that, coming up with an alternate plan. She said, quote, the plan was they needed to be murdered. Later, she said her husband told the entire family, quote, this was going to change everything. According to Angelo Wagner's testimony, Billy came up with the plan for murder. Billy ultimately decided that the only way was to kill Hannah and that they couldn't stop short of killing Hannah Roden, the mother of s**t.

but they would have to kill Chris Roden Sr. because he ultimately exercised control over Hannah Roden and the Roden family and that other witnesses, other members of the Roden family would have to be killed for it to be successful. That's essentially what Angela testified and that really was Billy who was the driver here.

Angela wanted to turn Chris Sr. in for his marijuana, and then that would get the family in trouble, and therefore maybe Jake would get more visitation rights.

or more control over the fate of his daughter and her granddaughter. Well, of course, that cut too close for home for Billy because Billy had been in business with Chris Sr. Chris Sr. had tried to teach Billy how to grow marijuana. And then, so she says, Billy came up with this alternate plan. Here's the quote. Quote, the plan was they needed to be murdered. Yeah, and then it progressed from there that, okay, we're going to start talking about how we're going to do it.

During one of these meetings with George and Jake Wagner in the kitchen, Angela asked her sons if they wanted to go through with the murders. According to Angela, they said yes.

Joseph Morgan says that the accusation of molestation would get the rest of the Wagner family to do what Angela wanted. She was the person that had the 30,000-foot view of the entire family. She saw where all the weaknesses were. She saw where the strengths were, and she knew what the goal was in order to win. And I think that her endgame has always been to have total control over the family.

over the Wagner family. And, you know, she was going to be, she's a rotor on the ship. She's the master of the ship as well. And all of these people are there to do her bidding. And, you know, Billy may have had this thought at a real primal level, I think, that he needed to take care of the rodents. But it was, in my opinion at least, it was Angela that was overlording all of this all the way along.

In episode 413, we saw evidence of how Angela manipulated Billy through text messages. I am moving on. You are more than welcome to come, bring babies, and come on. Angela, well, they are not our babies, and I would never do that to George and Jake. I would have killed someone if they would have even mentioned going away with my babies. And if you really missed me, you would do anything or go through anything for me. Billy, it's a fine mess.

Angela, well, maybe it is worth you helping me work it out. Billy, I got a plan if you just take one damn minute and listen. Angela, okay, tell me. Billy, when I see you, this is the last time I am going to try. If the three of you don't take time to listen to me, then oh well. Angela, okay. Joseph Morgan. Isn't it amazing? I find, you know, and Angela is certainly a fine example of this. It's very easy to

for her to rationalize and justify her actions she doesn't necessarily do in court but the lead up to it when she's the driver behind all this is that she's looking out for the greater good of the family you know it's the the women the women are all women of ill repute uh the kids that

that she does not have in her immediate control run the risk of being sexually molested, that she needs to be the one to provide watch care and the family has to watch over them at all time. The rest of the world is evil. We're the ones that are right. And isn't that interesting how her worldview kind of parallels that of Billie's?

While Angela testified it wasn't her idea to murder the Rodens, she did admit to helping plan the crimes. Now while on the stand, Angela Wagner admitted to staying at home on the night of the murders, but said she helped her sons and husband prepare for them. Here's prosecutor Angie Canepa laying out what Angela Wagner bought to prepare for the murders. She admits to buying the shoes.

for her sons. We show Jake, at least his awards card being used to buy 76932 ammo and a magazine for an SKS also in April. There was a phone jammer purchased by Angela. A phone jammer jams signals for phones. So say you're gonna go murder eight people and you don't want them to be able to call for help.

then you have a phone jammer on your person and it jams the signals. But that was purchased and a bug detector was purchased by Angela. The financial records also just confirm what we already knew, which was they function as one unit in pretty much everything they do, financially is no exception.

Angela said that Billy came to her with this idea, that they discussed it outside in this area of, you know, like carport type area. And I'm trying to like envision where exactly that would be, but they were outside the home on Peterson Road and Billy came up with this idea.

And then she said, you know, that they included the boys. But she said she didn't go along. She did order things. She ordered what Billy told her to order, she said. Jake told her to go buy the Walmart shoes. And so she did. And, you know, it was just kind of like she was the shopper, almost is what it sounds like. Billy took care, I guess, of everything else. And the boys took care of everything else, too.

So, you know, it sounds like she was kind of throwing it all on Billy. Let's stop here for another break.

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According to Angela's testimony, Billy said they needed a vehicle for the murders. Angela told George to get $5,000 out of their safe and use that to purchase the truck that would be used the night of the murders.

Here's Stephanie. She was definitely saying it as though this was Billy and Jake and George's plan. And yes, she was kind of going through the paces to stick to their story. And yes, she went and she bought the stuff and the shoes were something that she actually purchased. Quite obviously, they have her on camera doing it. So on the one hand, she's sort of just a bystander to it.

and to this day claims she doesn't know the nightly details. Angela testifies that prior to the murders, Billy came over one night and was telling everyone, quote, come on, come on. But apparently nobody listened, and so Billy got mad and left. Nobody was moving fast enough. But the next day, Billy Wagner came back. He told them to get ready. Prosecutor Canepa asks if Angela knew who was going to do the killings. Angela's response?

No, I didn't ask and I wasn't told about the murder. To this day, she doesn't know the details of what happened that night because they've never told her and Billy never told her. All she knows is what the plan was, that she had to keep the phones and that at a certain time she would send out a text as she was supposed to to kind of place the phones at the house. When Billy, Jake and George left for the Roden households, Angela claims she was conflicted.

Angela testified about the actual day of the murders, saying she saw Jake, George and Billy Wagner leave that evening. She said she was overwhelmed with emotion after they left, fearing they might not come back or even what might happen. Angela also testified she thought about racing after them to stop them, but realized it was too late. Jeff and Anjanette Levy. This is according to her.

She stayed home that night. It was just really interesting to me because she, you know, did her part. And then she said she had taken an ibuprofen. So she fell and then she fell asleep. So, you know, she fell asleep as they went on this horrific mission to kill people, even though she said she felt bad about it and thought, oh, I wonder if I could stop it. But, you know, oh, but I had the kids here. So she didn't take any steps to stop it. Do you buy that at all?

I mean, I think she might have had some misgivings, but no, I find it hard to believe that your excuse is, oh, well, I'm home with the kids, so I can't stop them from going and killing eight people or even one person. I mean, come on. If she wanted to stop it, she could have stopped it. As news coverage shows, the horrific events of the night unfolded as the Wagners had planned.

That night, eight members of the Roden, Manley, and Gilley families were murdered.

Angela testifies that the next day she heard about the murders on the news. George Wagner's mom did say today that while she knew what was going to happen six years ago, the homicide still shocked her. She remembers asking her husband, Billy, why so many victims? His response, quote, because they were there.

During cross-examination of Angela Wagner, an attorney for her son George keyed on two themes, Angela's lies and her paranoia. The defense team's goal is to cast blame for the 2016 Pike County massacre on Angela, her husband Billy, and George's brother Jake, but not the man on trial for murder.

We've heard so much about her. You know, we've talked about her for years and she's been kind of like the center of all this. And this is the culmination of all that. I mean, what's your take on hearing it straight from her mouth finally? Well, I mean, it's shocking to hear. It really is. More on that next time.

For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Pikedon Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Caccaro, Andrew Arnau, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Astin.

The Pike to the Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome our Pike County Dogwood Festival Queen. Lord, I just thank you for bringing us all together as a community. I'm a boy. I take my present home today. There's blood all over the house. Who could have killed eight family members in one night?

I lost my best friend, and I will never be the same because of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The killer left those children laying in their mother's blood. The word that comes to mind is overkill. Who was the mastermind? I'm telling you, if they frame us, I'm not sitting in prison. One thing I learned...

The smaller the town, the bigger the secrets. Be sure to watch our upcoming documentary, The Pike County Murders, A Family Massacre, premiering on NBCUniversal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend, November 24th and November 25th. Please check your local listings, and our hearts are with the Rodens and the Gilley families.

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I'll see you next time.

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