George Wagner’s Final Day on the Stand
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Angela Canepa, if you listen to it, she hammers it. And I think if I'm sitting there as a juror, if they paid as close attention to this trial as I have, that's a red flag. What happens to you if you come in here and admit that you and your brother and your father slaughtered perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds? Do you want me to answer what I feel should happen to anybody that would do that? I want to know what happens to you

If you come in here and admit that. What should happen to anybody is they should have death given to them. This is the Pikes and Massacre, Return to Pike County. Season 4, Episode 23, George Wagner's final day on the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane.

It's important to note that George Wagner IV has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. After answering more than seven hours worth of questions from his own lawyer the day before, George Wagner's surprising testimony continues for a second day.

Wagner continued defending himself, denying any involvement in the murders. He insisted he took no part in planning or covering up the brutal murders. But on his second day of testimony, George Wagner faced a far more aggressive line of questioning from prosecutor Angie Canepa.

She questioned his credibility, honesty, and the multiple inconsistencies from previous statements George Wagner gave to investigators. George Wagner back on the stand for a second day. He is on trial for murder in the Pike County massacre that happened in 2016. Wearing a light blue collared dress shirt, a dark tie, and black vest,

George Wagner IV returned to the stand on the 43rd day of his trial. Defense attorney John Parker started the morning by asking George Wagner about his use of Facebook. Now, George, did you use Facebook? On and off. Wagner said he occasionally used Facebook to buy and sell items like truck parts on its Marketplace app and to talk to friends, including Frankie Roden. With respect to Facebook, did you ever...

However, George testified his mother was constantly trying to access his social media passwords. Did you ever have an issue with your mother trying to access your phone?

George also said he was aware of the GoFundMe page his brother Jake created, but also that he had nothing to do with it.

Defense attorney John Parker then shifted the conversation to George's mindset after the murders and how he viewed the police investigation. After being questioned at the Montana border in 2017, George Wagner said he didn't know if his truck was bugged and his phone was tapped. But he said he assumed they were. During that time frame, what was your mindset, so to speak, about the investigation and whether your family was guilty or not guilty? What was your mindset then?

I believe that they were just trying to frame my mom and my brother and my family for the fact that they didn't have anybody else to look at. Why did you think that? Because I was raised to believe that all law enforcement was crooked and I thought they just wanted to close the case and didn't care about it being right or wrong.

The fear of law enforcement also led George to think his brother Jake's new wife, Elizabeth, was likely an informant. From the way I understood it was that BCI would stoop to any level to get information about my family and that they would try and send a woman in there to get close to me or my brother and get information. Does that explain some of the conversations we heard on the recordings between you and your brother about that? Yes, because she...

George also testified he questioned Elizabeth's motives and that he did not trust her. Why not? Okay, take your time and explain. Um, reason one, um,

When she first broke up with my brother and then got back with him, I just thought it was weird that somebody who met a complete stranger would want to be with somebody who was accused of what we were being accused of. All right. Were there other reasons? Yes.

The second reason was she had come up with a story about her childhood that she and her brothers and her mother was part of some cult for some church in Texas. And I guess the church ended up selling kids to sex slavery or something like that. All right. Was there any other reason? The other one was I came home from work one week and my son said that Beth had told him that you shoot bad people with AR-15s.

George Wagner said he told his family he didn't want Elizabeth living with them after they returned to Ohio. I just didn't feel my son was safe around her. Did you want to kill her? No. What did you want? I just wanted her to move out of the house. Wanting to drive home the point that George Wagner was a loving and caring uncle, attorney John Parker asked George about his nickname for his niece. George said that when Jake and Hannah's daughter was a baby, he began to playfully call her Suds.

She was playing one day in a bucket full of water that she was sitting in. It was filled full of soap. So you gave her the nickname Suggs? Yes. After Hannah's death, George said he would regularly talk to Jake about his daughter. During those conversations, did you know that he had killed you? No. What was his demeanor when you brought up Suggs?

- Depends on what I was going on, but usually it turned into a fight and an argument. - About what? - Anytime I would say that made a face like Hannah or looked like Hannah or was acting like Hannah, he would throw a fit. - You loved your son quite obviously, right? - Yes. - Did you love Suds? - Yes. - Did you kill these people for her? - No. - Would you ever do that? - No.

Here's Jeff and Stephanie. Do you think, Steph, that this testimony humanizes George Wagner in any way? I mean, look, even if it does humanize him, both things can be true, I think. If we've learned anything just in the process of making this podcast and following it for as long as we have, it's just that certain people can be a lot of things at the same time. So on the one hand, yes, maybe this does make him seem more compassionate, and on the other, yes.

He's being accused of commiserating to murder of eight people that, according to this compassionate testimony, he knew very well. And both things may be true. This is a good example of the defense adding a rational look into George Wagner's thought process. It's very well explained. It sounds logical. I mean, he makes pretty rational points about why Jake's relationship with Elizabeth is odd. And it could raise possible doubts about Elizabeth's judgment, which

as we know is the prosecution's goal, to poke holes in the defense's story because all they have to do is just turn one juror in favor of George. I would imagine too, if in fact he knew what hot water he and his family were in at that time, the idea of adding a new person just seems nuts.

On the one hand, it shows that Jake wanted to marry Elizabeth before they returned to Pikedon. And on the other side of it, why would you add somebody else to the equation that has to keep your story straight? And if George presents himself as empathetic and slightly compassionate or is adding context to the dynamics, one person can decide his fate. While he loved his niece, George said he and Jake also fought and disagreed about how to raise their children.

Here again, Defense Attorney John Parker speaking with George Wagner IV. Did you and your brother have the same ideas on how to raise your respective children? No. Not by a long shot. Can you explain? My brother wanted to basically keep chained up in the house for her entire life until she graduated college. What was your idea of how to raise...

My idea of it was, I guess you could say I spoiled him. In what ways? I didn't ever tell him that whatever he wanted, I got it for him. And I got a lot of hell over that. And my main plan was that eventually when he was older, all kids are going to be kids. Regardless of what you say or do, they're going to make their own mistakes. I've made mine. Everybody I know has made theirs. And they're going to do it anyway. Whether you tell them not to or whether you tell them to do it, they're going to do it. So my way of...

fixing that was I was just going to end up building like a great big lake one day on whatever piece of property I bought and have his own cabin on it from the time he turned his teenager. So when he was out drinking and partying, which he's going to do, all kids do it, that he would be there and I wouldn't worry about him running up and down the roads instead of him being running everywhere like I did. Did you discuss this with your brother? Yes. Did you discuss Jake's philosophy on raising a **** yesterday? Yes. Was that a source of disagreement between you

Despite disagreeing on how to raise their children, both Jake and George agreed on one thing. That was that their mother, Angela Wagner, should have custody of their kids should anything happen to them. George said he remembers signing the backdated custody documents that Angela prepared.

He also claims he did so without looking at them. I came home one day and I was going to my room, change clothes and go back out the door and my mom said that she was filling one out for my brother and asked if I wanted one that was more legit than the handwritten one I had. And I told her if she wanted it, she had like 10 minutes to get it and I had to go. And I signed my name and walked out. Okay, so break that down a little bit. Do you remember when that was? Sometime early 2016. Alright, and...

The document that you signed, had it been completed? Was it blank? What did you know about it? It was just like a printed out form. Did you read it? No, I just signed my name to it. And what'd you do after you signed your name? I walked out the front door and left again. And what was your understanding of this document she wanted you to sign as you were coming in and out and changing your clothes? I just assumed she was making another one that was more legitimate looking than my handwritten one.

Here's Stephanie and Jeff. So the defense has been trying to show George as a caring, attentive, smart, with it person and father.

But the whole explanation that he just signed these custody documents on a whim, to me, undercuts the caring and attentive father image. It reinforces the idea that he actually didn't really care, that he would just sign something without thinking about it or putting any thought into it. His defense attorney attempts to explain the decision, but I think the whole thing undercuts what the defense has been trying to do.

Which is a completely fair point. I would say in the totality of what he's been saying in his testimony so far, they're trying to make him stand alone and stand apart from his other family members.

It also shows that he was pretty conditioned to do whatever his mother said. Kind of my takeaway from what the story is they're telling is that George kind of got accustomed to dealing with his mother and that his family was always doing some kind of a scam or a con and that he just looked the other ways or threw his hands up and didn't really think much of it.

Well, the defense can't have it both ways. They can't say on the one hand that he is a caring, attentive father who thinks everything through and is independent of his family, but then also just signs a document because his mom tells him to and he trusts her. Those are conflicting ideas that I think the jury will see through. Despite testifying the day before that he had wanted to distance himself from his family's criminal activities, George admitted to chopping up cars for insurance money. Did you ever make money other than driving trucks?

multiple different ways. Did you ever cut up trucks? Yes. Explain that.

My grandfather, my mom's father, would have people come by that would have a diesel Dodge truck or a diesel Chevy or whatever kind of truck really. But they would owe on the truck and they would want out from under it. So I'd give them $500 to $1,000 and they'd give me the truck and give me a week to chop it up and sell it. And then they'd report it stolen and turned in on the insurance company.

Later, defense attorney John Parker pivoted to address the damaging BCI recordings.

George Wagner tried to counter the prosecution's descriptions of some of the most incriminating comments. Thinking back on these recordings that we've listened to, do you remember saying on the recordings anything about your mother and whether she should get an attorney or not? Do you remember any of that? Yes. What do you remember?

The conversation that I believe you're talking about is that if all of us were arrested, that my mother should get the best one. And did you say that? Yes. Why did you say that? Because my mom's the one that watched the kids five days a week while we were gone anyway. They were used to being with her for five days a week, and I feared it would be easier on the children. What were you thinking when you said that? I was just going under what?

What basically I understood from the attorneys that if we got arrested that it could take six months, it could take two years to get through a trial and be able to work things out. Do you remember on some of the recordings we listened to your mother say something about being framed? Yes.

What do you recall? My mom and brother has said that since the beginning. That's why I believe that we were being framed because they said that they were twisting everything that my mom and brother had on their phones and laptops and they were trying to frame us. And was that your mindset during these conversations? Yes. After listening to these recordings that we heard in court, how do you feel about what Jake was saying and what you now know he did? I now know that he was just lying through his teeth to me.

What about your mother? Same thing. She's lying to me from the beginning. Did you ever tell your mother, referencing these recordings, did you ever tell your mother you would take the blame for these murders? No, I did not.

So George has testified that he didn't trust his mother. We know this. He also didn't trust his brother. And he knew he was being raised, frankly, by career criminals. And in his opinion, his brother was very selfish and manipulative. And at this point, whether this is before the murders or even after the murders, George was supposed to be on the straight and narrow.

George likes to claim that he knew the whole time his family were liars and criminals and did not trust them. Yet, according to his narrative, after the murders, he just chooses to believe their story about what happened

in and around the Rodan massacre. It just doesn't line up about the explanation George gave earlier. He knows they're liars, yet accepts their statements about the murders. These are the kinds of things that the prosecution is definitely noticing, and they're definitely gonna bring up at Cross because they wanna really highlight them for the jury.

Attorney John Parker then focused on one of the most potentially damaging recordings. In it, George Wagner threatened BCI investigator Ryan Scheiderer. George testified that it was not a real threat, but a comment made out of frustration and anger. One of the conversations we listened to involved your brother and your mother, and you were kind of in the background. Your mother said something about their framing. Do you remember that? Yes.

and that she would take the death penalty? Yes. You remember that? Yes. At that time, did you know your mom and brother were involved in these murders or committed the murders? No. I think it was in that same conversation where Jake says he will get out one way or another. Do you remember that? Yes. At that time, did you know he had killed these people? No. I was under the assumption that he was referring to if he got framed and was wrongfully convicted. And then your voice is in the background.

And you say, ain't going to have the electric chair, words to that. Yes. You remember that? Yes. What did you mean by that? I just get irritated when people are messing with my family and stuff, especially when I've been up for five days with no sleep and massive amounts of caffeine, and it makes you irritable. Did you know at that point that your mom and brother were actually guilty of anything? No. Are you guilty of any of these things? No. No.

On that same recording or conversation, you remember hearing your voice say, "I want to kill Ron." Yes, I said that. What did you mean by that? Explain context. It was more of a line like when you're angry at somebody, you say stupid stuff like that. Don't mean it, you mean it. I think everybody said that about somebody at one point or another. There was another comment you made to your brother during one of these phone calls about

You telling people the truth is the reason we're in this mess. You remember that? Yes. Can you explain? In the beginning, I believed that the finger was pointed at my family because my brother pissed off the manlies, which he does to almost everybody he's around. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.

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Defense attorney John Parker wrapped up his questioning of George Wagner by again asking him if he had any involvement in the murders. Did you know your family was going to kill these people? No. Before it happened, did you know? No. After it happened, did you know? No. Did you ever have any conversations with your brother about it? No. Did you ever talk to your mom about it? No. Your dad? No.

Here again, Jeff and Stephanie.

We knew when we saw the photo from George and Tabitha's wedding a couple of years ago that it was influential and significant. But seeing it in court really proves that to be true. This was a big moment where both of the families got together and it highlights their relationships. We'll share it on our social media, but it's a pretty astounding photograph and it really paints a picture of how close they were. And everybody in the photograph is either dead or accused of their murder. The statement cross-examined.

Here's Law and Crimes investigative reporter, Anjanette Levy.

I was actually, part of me felt kind of impressed watching him on direct because I felt that he just seemed calm and he'd obviously been prepped, but he just seemed to have answers for everything. And that, that kind of made me wonder a little bit, cause you can't have, you can't always have answers for everything, but he seemed to have an answer for everything. Obviously he's been prepped. He's had years to think about this.

But at the same time, he seemed to be doing a good job on the stand during direct. The prosecution focused in on George Wagner, the fourth's honesty today on the witness stand. After hours of questioning by his own attorney, George Wagner came under intense scrutiny during the prosecution's cross-examination.

Prosecutor Angie Canepa immediately zeroed in on George's claim that he and Frankie Roden had a close relationship. Let's go ahead and start with Frankie. You consider him your best friend? Yes. So in 2012, you have your arm around Frankie. He's standing next to you at your wedding. Yes. And prior to the homicides, when had you ever talked to Frankie? The last time beforehand? Yes. Probably...

Late December. Late December of 2015? Yes. Okay. And isn't it true that you told us that you didn't even know Hannah Hazel? I have met her one time in my life. But at the border, when you were interviewed in 2017...

You said you had never met her, that the last person you knew Frankie to be seeing was some girl named Angel. And that was before you got married in 2012. Angel was before Chelsea. You indicated at the border that the last person you knew Frankie to be seeing was some girl named Angel. And that was when you still had your pulling truck, which was before you got married. Not that I remember. I could be wrong on that, but not that I remember. Okay.

While George Wagner admitted that he hadn't seen Frankie Roden in months and had never met Frankie's son, he explained that he didn't have as much time for friends when he began long-haul driving, also after his own son was born. However, the prosecution presented an alternative theory. So you'd never met Hannah Hazel.

Usually a woman's pregnant for nine months and Ruger was six months at the time of birth. That's at least 15 months where you didn't know Hannah Hazel. Never met her. Never met her. But Frankie was your best friend. Yes. Who I consider my best friend. Who you blocked on Facebook. Who I did not block on Facebook. Well, he was blocked on your Facebook. It might be, but it didn't happen for me. And you did not have any Facebook conversations with Frankie either, did you? Not very many that I remember.

Angie Kanepa questioned George's relationship with the mother of Frankie Roden's oldest child, who had testified earlier in the trial. She alleged that there was bad blood between George and Frankie.

You remember Chelsea testifying? Yes. Okay. Is it true that you reached out to her at some point? At one point in time, me and Chelsea started talking, yes. Okay. And Frankie found out about that? Yes. And he was upset? In the beginning, yes, until I explained that we were nothing more than friends. Okay. So...

Then Chelsea's lying when she said that that put a, you guys held a grudge against each other after that? No. And your friendship dissipated? We did not hold a grudge against each other after that. Okay. So she's lying? I'm not saying she's lying. I'm saying she's mistaken. Okay. But you never met Hannah Hazel and didn't know her name? No. You also indicated Frankie was a fighter. Yes. That you've seen videos of him fighting. Yes. And that...

you would have to go through Frankie to get to anyone in the family? More than likely, yes. I mean, that's what you said? Yes. Okay. I don't see Frankie letting anybody mess with his family. Yeah. Or Kenneth, right? I don't see anybody in their family letting anybody mess with their family. Angie Canepa also attacks George Wagner's claims that he hated his own family and wanted to escape them.

She does this by referencing a conversation Jord had in 2018 with his new girlfriend, Josie. And I guess you tried, or at least it seemed yesterday, that you were talking about Jake as if you hardly even liked him. At which point in time? Any point in time. From early childhood? It wasn't that bad with him because we were just little kids. But the older we got, the worse he got. Okay. And at the last point...

I might get 10 good days out of 100 with him, maybe. Okay. But you just saw that text message in 2018, right, to Josie.

Yes. Where you're saying, I'm really close with my family. You're kind of warning her or making sure that she's okay with that because you were contemplating having her come live with you, right? Not at the house I was staying in, though. Say it again. Not at the house I was staying in, though. Okay. But you wanted her to come live with you. I wanted her to move down here eventually because that's what she was talking about, but I wasn't going to let her move in the house with my mother. Okay. You didn't want her in the house with your mother. Correct. So...

In July of 2018, when you were talking to your mother on the phone, when you said that you wanted your own little farm somewhere out west, where I can still make a living, and where me and Jake can live peacefully with you and the kids and whoever else we decide to bring, so we can have a nice, peaceful life without all of that crap and the drama from everyone. Am I allowed to explain this? Did you say that? Yes, I said that. Okay. Am I allowed to go into detail with this? Sure. Sure.

It doesn't mean living in the same house. It means buying a bigger farm and he has a house on one corner, she has a house on one corner, and I've got a house on one corner.

Okay. Kind of like what you guys were considering doing when you moved to Missouri, right? In a further effort to discredit George Wagner's testimony, the prosecution brought out transcripts of his interview with BCI agents at the Montana border in 2017 and challenged him on the discrepancy between what he said then and what he was saying now on the witness stand. I know you talked about your mother and you said, well, you describe her to me. She is...

Thinks she's better than everybody. Thinks everything has to be done her way. I would probably say that I could put selfish in that. Manipulative. And again, I mean, this is new and different than what you told us at the border, right? That's not what you said about your mother at the border, right? I don't remember what I said at the border. Okay. Well, you were asked if your mom was controlling. I bet your mom is so controlling that she probably even organized the whole thing. And you said, my mom is not controlling anything.

You were asked, your mom's not controlling? You said no, at all. Do you remember saying that? I don't remember saying that. Okay. Well, is that true? That she's not controlling? Correct. Before my 10th birthday, she wasn't so bad as I can remember. But she got worse as the years went by. Okay. So in 2017, when you were asked that question, and you said she's not controlling, is that true or not? As far as actually controlling me? No, she didn't.

Despite testifying that his mother was manipulative and selfish, George tried to explain why he was willing to sign away custody of his son.

You talked about these custody documents that you and your brother signed and your mother forged the signature for Hannah on, correct? All in the same magical day, correct? Yes. You obviously heard the testimony that that happened at the kitchen table in your house. It was in the kitchen. In the kitchen. Okay. So you agree with that? I agree. I signed my name to mine in the kitchen and left. Okay. And you...

Indicated you just signed that? Yes. So you trust your mother? I trust my mother 75, 80%. There's some parts of her I don't trust. Okay. But you signed this document saying if you were to be killed or something happened to you, she would get your child. Who else would I leave him to? I have no one else to leave him to.

Yeah, but it was dated 2015 and that's not when you signed those documents. I didn't know what date was on it. I signed it early 16th. You signed it in April. Sometime in 16th. I don't know the exact date. Yeah, well obviously sometime after April 3rd of 2016 because that was when it was printed off the computer. Could be. I don't know the exact date. I just know it was 16th. You've seen the documents. I didn't pay much attention to it. I was seeing it had my signature.

Angie Kanepa then showed George Wagner the custody documents that he signed. She once again pressed George on why he signed them without paying attention. You can look at that and tell me what that is. It's the document that I signed. So that is your signature? Yes. Okay. And you see the date at the bottom there? Yes. Okay. Okay.

And is that consistent with your experience as far as the computer spitting out the date something is printed off a computer? I couldn't tell you on that. I don't use computers that much. But this is dated March 11th of 2015. Yes. And it clearly was not signed in March 11th of 2015. No, I signed it the day it was printed off.

So I mean, you realize it's forgery to backdate a document, right? Yes. Okay. And it's forgery to sign somebody else's name to a document? Yes, I can see that. Okay. I just don't see how me signing my name is forgery. Well, it was backdated. I didn't know that. The page was, from my understanding, blank from what I can remember when I signed my name.

So you just signed your name to a completely blank document? To a custody document. She said, sign my name. I signed it and walked out. But you wanted to leave your child with your mother? If something was ever to happen to me, yes. A few weeks later. There was no one else to leave it to him. Again, you had lots of conversations about concerns about the handwriting that was going to be taken? Because it's something to do with law enforcement.

And I was raised that law enforcement is crooked and tries to twist everything. Well, you were raised to commit a lot of crimes. I was. Not that it was right, but that's how I was raised. It took me a long time to realize that it was wrong. And when did you realize that? When I realized that my dad was wrong and was actually hurting people.

So that particular crime you realized was actually hurting people, right? The stealing of stuff out of trailers. Yes. But you didn't swear off a life of crime. Just that particular one you realized there actually were victims. With the stealing fuel and loads, I quit in late '14, I believe. The last thing I can remember doing, aside from deer hunting, that was being considered illegal was the Duramax being wrecked. Then after that it was just deer hunting.

Despite his claim of changing his ways and leaving his life of crime behind him, Angie Kanepa questioned George Wagner about the illegal activities he continued to engage in, including using a fake address to get his trucking license. Did he recognize them?

Prosecutor Angie Canepa then showed George Wagner a series of gun receipts and purchase forms.

So you know that you have to put accurate information on those forms, correct? Yes. It's a federal offense not to when you're purchasing a firearm, right? Yes. Okay. So if you could go ahead and look at it and tell us what address you put down there. It's 845 Bethel Hill Road. Okay. But that's not re-moked? Not at the time. My license happened to expire, and when I bought my firearms, I was advised just to use what was on the driver's license I had and taking the time to change it.

Actually, that's not permitted. That's what I was advised by the people I bought them from. They said to put the addresses on my license. You understand that making any false oral or written statement or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction is a crime punishable as a felony? Yes. Under federal law? Yes. Okay. But on at least three, at least these three forms, you did not provide accurate information, correct? As far as the driver's license address, no.

After George Wagner admitted to lying on government firearm forms, Kanepa moved to point out other key discrepancies in George Wagner's testimony, particularly around when he went to bed the night of the murders. Prosecutors say in 2017, Wagner told investigators that he'd gone to bed at 12.30 a.m. on the night of the murders after watching a movie with his family. However, in his testimony today, he claimed it was around 10 p.m.,

You said that the night of the homicides, you went to bed at 10 o'clock. 10-ish, if I remember correctly. It's been a long time. Okay. All right. And so do you recall, again, being interviewed at the border and saying that the four of you, well, the six of you, actually, your mom, your dad, your brother, yourself, were watching a movie and you were up until, you didn't go to bed until 1230. I don't remember what time it was.

do you remember telling the border at the border the agents when they asked you about what you did that night you saying that your mom had fixed cheeseburgers for you and how delicious they were and she makes the best and maybe one day

She could make them for them. I don't remember that now. I'm not saying I didn't say it. I just said I don't remember. Okay. You indicated that you watched a fairy movie. I don't remember what. A movie that wanted to watch. I just, I remember watching a movie with the kids at this point. I don't remember what it was. Okay. It's been a long time.

And you indicated that that is when your son would usually go to sleep as well? My son usually went to sleep between 10 and 11 usually. Okay. From what I can remember. Is there a reason that you would lie to the people at the border? I'm not saying I did. I'm saying I don't remember what time that I told them that. Okay. I mean, it may have been. I just, from my memory now, I remember going to bed around 10-ish. I could be wrong about that, but that's what I remember. Yeah, well...

Because now we know that Chris Sr. and Gary were being killed at 11 p.m., right? I don't know that. You don't know that? No. Previously, Jake Wagner testified that George participated in the murders. However, Jake said that George did not fire any shots. You don't know that that's when...

Your dad had Chris call his phone and you saw the phone calls, correct? I'm saying I wasn't there. I don't know when Chris had died. Right. Okay. You know that's what Jake said. I know my brother's time is off on everything that's been showed in here.

So now we know, at least according to Jake, that Chris Sr. and Gary were killed at 11 o'clock, right? I think that's what he said. Which makes your story at the border impossible, right? Again, I don't remember exactly everything I said at the border. Well, I assume you were trying your best to tell the truth when you were interviewed at the border, correct? To my knowledge, what I remembered.

Okay, I'm not interested as much as what you said, as much as do you agree that it would be more accurate back then?

I can't agree yes or no because I just don't know. You agree that you were trying to be honest with the agents, certainly weren't trying to lie to them. Yes, I agree on that. You certainly weren't trying to provide a cover story for you and your brother and your father and your mother, right? No, I was not. So this whole idea that we're going to coordinate our response and say that we were all together on family night, movie night, watching a video,

Surely you didn't just make this up when you told the people at the border. It just happened to be the same story that you guys had agreed in advance to tell. There was no agreement in advance. My dad came down, my kid didn't want him to leave. So your story today or yesterday is that you actually went to bed at 10. From what I remember at this point in time, I believe it was 10-ish. Okay. So...

How could Jake and your father have been up on the hill killing Chris Sr. and Gary less than an hour after you went into your bedroom? I can't answer that. I don't know. Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati, now with Local 12. When George Wagner testified that he went to bed at 10 o'clock, the two special prosecutors, Angela Canepa and Andy Wilson, looked at each other, almost like pointed at each other, like, ha-ha.

We have not heard what George had to tell Ohio BCI when they stopped the family at the Montana border on their way back from Alaska in May, June 2017. They have not played a lot of that. They have not played any of that. They played some of Jake's. They played Angela's. But they've not played any of George's.

And I think there was a strategic reason behind that because they might have expected that George was going to testify for himself and they did not want him to hear what he had to say back then so they could catch him in a contradiction. And they did. And it was a big one.

So they spent a lot of time and they hammered him on that. Angela Canepa, if you listen to it, she hammers him on that. And I think if I'm sitting there as a juror, if they paid as close attention to this trial as I have, that's a red flag. The prosecution also hammered George Wagner on other red flags as well. This included denying any knowledge that Jake owned a Walther Colt .22 pistol.

Have you ever owned a 1911-22? No. Has your brother ever owned one? To my knowledge, no. So his testimony that he had this for more than a year, you were unaware of that? If he's owned it that long, I didn't know about it. Okay. Well, obviously there's a picture of him holding that weapon in 2015. Now I see that the picture is his. But back then I didn't think it was his. But he hid it from you. What is it? He hid it from you? If he's had it that long, he must have.

Why would you do that? Because you guys keep your guns and you're safe, right? According to my brother's statement, he said that he owned every one of them guns on that list. And I've not seen over half of what's under his name.

You failed to answer the question. You guys keep your guns and you're safe, correct? Most of them. So you're saying he owns guns you don't know of? I'm saying it's possible. I've owned hundreds of guns. For over a year, he owned a gun and you were oblivious to it. It's very well possible. Here again, journalist James Pilcher. George has said he never saw and has never seen

the 1911 Walther Colt 22 caliber that was used in the murders. Even though A.G. Scheider texted him a picture of Jake holding it that they got off of Jake's phone. So he's never seen that gun before, ever. He bought that handgun at a gun show in Columbus a couple years before the murders at the end of January on the same day

that George bought a different gun at the same gun show. They have the paperwork showing that. They didn't buy their guns at the same vendor. So George was like, I didn't even know, really know Jake was there. So if I'm a juror, I'm thinking, wait a minute. You mean to say that you two boys went up there separately to the same gun show and bought guns on the same day

and didn't know each other was there while your father's there. It was a small but key moment at the end of the day. During one of his conversations with Jake after the murders, George was recorded by BCI agents complaining that Jake could not tell a lie. All this with George insisting that Jake destroy evidence. And you actually talk about that with Jake again, about how his

My whole life I've been in trouble with you because of you telling on everything and telling honesty. Yes. And everybody says my anger mouth is going to get us in trouble, but it's always been your honesty that gets us in trouble. Yes. Correct? And you say, children, you have to tell on yourself. Children, you have to tell on me. Yeah, that's what children, that's what I'm referring to as when we're children.

And you also tell him that he should have gotten rid of the phone and he should have smashed the laptop, correct? Yes. And again, that's because we got a lot of evidence from those items. My understanding of it was that he kept saying you guys were twisting stuff that you found on it to try and frame him. Let's stop here for another break.

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Nearing the end of her cross-examination, Prosecutor Angie Canepa brought up George's long history of calling female family members derogatory names. This included one incident where George complained about Jake's four-year-old daughter. This is the call where you said she can't keep her nose out of somebody else's life. She being ****. Yes. And Jake says, George, she's four years old. Yes.

You said she does anything deliberately to try and crush him. Deliberately. Bitch got to ruin everything. You referred to your niece, your four-year-old niece, as a bitch because she was... Would you like an explanation? Tell me. I've explained this before. Five, six days with no sleep and caffeine, you say stuff you don't really mean. Yeah, you said a lot of things... It makes you irritable. Sure. And she went around telling my son that she had a new mom and he didn't. You called her a bitch.

You remember calling your grandmother, Frederica, a crazy whore? I don't remember that. You don't remember telling your mom to calm that crazy whore down? I don't remember that conversation. Am I saying it's possible? Yeah, I've probably said something like that. I've said a lot of stuff in my being upset that I really didn't mean, but I've said it because I've been days without sleep and massive amounts of caffeine. Sure. And you called Randa, I think, a lazy crack whore, I think.

I've called her that more than once. Okay. And you told the agents at the border that you thought that Hannah turned into a whore? From what everybody else was saying. And that was after she had left Jake? What everybody else was saying after she left Jake. To my understanding, I don't think she ever really did, but that's what everybody else was saying. Okay. And you certainly called Tabby a whore? Many a times.

and referred to Bethann as a whore just like Tabby. Many times. Here again, Anjanette Levy. He's calling his niece, you know, I think he called his niece a bitch. He called his sister-in-law a whore. I mean, and he attributes that to, you know, I drive on the road and I'm up a long time and I drink caffeine. And I just think to myself,

Like, I could see that. I mean, I've been wound up before and ranted and raved and said things. And, you know, you go off on a tirade. But at the same time, in one of my tirades or rants, I've not spoken about a four-year-old child like that. Unable to explain the many inconsistencies in his testimony, George Wagner pushed back against Angie Kanepa's questions.

He insisted in one of the most tense exchanges of the day that his mother and brother are lying. And my mom and brother are lying to you. They have been like everybody else. Like everybody else is lying. Like Tabitha's lying. Tabitha. Like Chelsea's lying. Like everybody that talked about Frankie's lying. I didn't say Chelsea was lying. Everybody is lying except for you. I did not say Chelsea was lying. I said she's mistaken. Right. Right.

And even though you've not managed to tell us anything consistent with what you told the agents at the border in 2017, you're the one that's telling the truth. I don't remember exactly everything I said at the border. That's not the question. The question is, what you're saying to us today is not consistent with what you said at the border. I can't say if it is or not because I don't remember everything I've said there. But everybody else is lying.

I'm saying that my mom and Tabby and Jake's lying about that night where they're mistaken one. They're confusing two different events into one.

Angie Kanepa trying to trip up George and he comes across as very calm, very prepared, very even-keeled. Does it work? Again, he only needs to convince one juror that he is telling the truth and that Jake and his mom are lying. Kanepa is trying to rattle him but it just doesn't really seem to work. And at the same time Kanepa makes the point for George to be telling the truth. A lot of other people need to be lying, which is a good point because

Jake and Angela were not able to corroborate their stories. They have both been in separate jails this entire time with no communication. So the fact that their two stories match up is a pretty good indicator that they perhaps are telling the truth because George could be lying all by himself. But how could those two have the same story without communicating first? They may have practiced a script to some degree before their arrests.

They might have been planning for this moment all along. But on the other hand, Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner are both the state's witnesses. So that means they've been working with the prosecution and their team to figure out what they're going to say on the stand. And in conversation with Mike Allen, lawyers have to tread very lightly about coaching witnesses on what they're going to say. But we do know they can prepare them and prepare them. They do. They spend hours talking over every single possible detail.

Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen.

We heard all this technical stuff for so long, like the ballistics and the shoe print, all these things. But I think it ultimately comes down to what George said versus what Angela and Jake said. Like that is what I think the jury probably most weighed. Do you see it that same way? Yeah, I mean, it would come down to credibility from George and Angela. And I think the credibility goes with Angela because George,

George, any number of times just said, I don't recall. I don't remember. I didn't count them up, but there were a lot of times that he said that. And I don't recall hearing that in Angela or Jake's testimony for that matter. It was just pretty straightforward. So,

I think if you didn't have the physical evidence and it's, you know, it's George against those two, I think they win and George doesn't because a lot of things he didn't remember. And he contradicted himself on a number of occasions. And also, I mean, it's Jake and Angela, they have not communicated. So it's not like they're comparing notes. If their stories line up, that must be worth a lot more than George by himself.

No question about it, because they were kept separate. There's no way they could get together out in the hallway and get their story straight. So, yeah, I mean, that gives them, I think, another reason why they have the greater credibility here. But the prosecution wasn't quite done highlighting George Wagner's incriminating comments. You indicated that you wanted to kill Special Agent Scheider, correct? I said that, yes. Okay. Jake didn't threaten him.

What is it? Jake did not threaten him. Not to my knowledge. You remember telling your brother that you should go to BCI and tell them that he'll rat you guys out because he's the biggest rat there is. Yes, I remember that. Okay. And do you remember also telling your mother...

Let me tell you something. I love you. The only reason, and I'm sorry, you're going to hate when I say this, everything that you and dad have ever gotten in trouble for with them mother frickers, the only reason they ever got away with that crap was because every time somebody caved, everybody crumbled. I ain't caving and I ain't crumbling. Do you remember saying that? I don't remember them exact words, but I do remember roughly the conversation. Okay. Okay.

And that was played in open court? I think so, yes. Okay. And is that your philosophy? You don't cave and you don't crumble? Not for what I believe you're trying to say it as. Well, specifically you're talking about anytime they got in trouble with law enforcement it's because somebody cracked. I don't believe you should plead out to something you didn't do.

After the prosecution ended their cross-examination of George Wagner, his defense attorney John Parker once again re-asked him several questions about the murders. George, just a few follow-up questions. It's probably been a long couple days for you, hasn't it? Early. George, did you ever see Jake by the 1911? No. Did you know he owned one? No.

Did you go up on Union Hill Road and participate in these murders in any way? No. Did you plan these murders? No. Did you know they were going to happen? No. Did you know after the murders that they, in fact, your family had been involved? No, not until my rubbish proffer. And did you know, did you ever go out to Left Fork Road where Ken was killed? No.

Has anybody paid you anything for your testimony? No. Has anybody given you anything for your testimony? No. Did the state offer you a plea bargain for your testimony? No. Are you telling the truth? Yes. Your life is on the line? Yes. Are you telling the truth? Yes. As you answer to God? Yes. Anything further from the state? Yes, sir.

With one last chance to potentially trip up George Wagner, Prosecutor Anjikunappa asked him what happens to him if he admits to killing the rodents. What happens to you if you come in here and admit that you and your brother and your father went up to Union Hill Road that night and then out to Left Fork Road that night

and slaughtered perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds, two of them with babies in the bed with them, that from all testimony were actively nursing their infants. What happens to you if you come in here on that stand and admit to that? Do you want me to answer? Would I feel it should happen to anybody that would do that? I want to know what happens to you

if you come in here and admit that. What should happen to anybody is they should have death given to them. And the biggest difference you agree between you and your brother is that when he does wrong things, he tells about it and you don't. When we were children, yes. I have no other questions. You may step down.

Now, since there's no DNA evidence connecting George Wagner to any of the crime scenes, jurors will have to decide who they believe, him or Jake and his mom, Angela, who have already said under oath that George Wagner was part of the plot to kill multiple people. More on that next time.

For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Pyton Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnau, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa.

Music by Jared Aston. The Pikedon Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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