Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.
Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to Haunting, Purgatory's premiere podcast. I'm your host, Teresa. We'll be bringing you different ghost stories each week, straight from the person who experienced it firsthand. Some will be unsettling, some unnerving, some even downright terrifying. But all of them will be totally true.
Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The number one podcast is back. They're my relatives. I still love them. I pray that God forgives them. I pray that I'll see them in heaven. But here on earth, eternity in jail is not long enough. Eight from the same family dead in rural southern Ohio. One family accused of killing members of another family.
Just when we thought we knew what happened during the Pikedon massacre, everything is turned upside down. I just feel like something is not right. Was this truly about custody? I don't think he would kill her. I think he would kill for her. Now, with trials on the horizon, new theories arise. There's like a good four or five places that burned down.
We're told he's lying because they're getting death threats behind bars. I was sent to the jailhouse in Pike County to put money on their book. So it's not hearsay for me. Why are we just learning about this now? This is one of the biggest pieces of physical evidence that we've had thus far. Just when we thought it couldn't get any stranger or darker, it has. This is The Piketon Massacre, Season 3, Episode 1, Mother May I.
Officers wearing body armor guarded Angela Wagner as she walked into a Pike County courtroom to admit after years of denials that she helped plan the murders of Hannah Roden and her family. On the warm and heavily humid afternoon of September 10th, 2021 in Pike County, Ohio, accused killer mother Angela Wagner arrived in court. She was wearing black and white striped prison garb and her hair, previously short and blonde, now hangs in a long brown curtain.
Here's Judge Randy Deering. It's hard to hear, but that's Angela Wagner admitting guilt. The mother accused in Ohio's most complex homicide investigation has just reached a plea deal.
As part of the deal, the aggravated murder charges against Wagner were dropped. She also agreed to testify against her family members. She will spend 30 years in prison and cannot apply for parole. What the defendant provided to us in her statement were very consistent with what her son, Jake Wagner, had provided to us back in April of this year. In the end, Angela Wagner admitted that she and her family members all conspired together to commit these horrific offenses.
specifically the entry into their homes in four different locations in order to kill the eight victims. - The defendant and the state will make a joint recommendation to this court that the defendant receive a total of 30 years in prison. - Andrew Joe Wagner did unlawfully and with purpose to commit aggravated murder with another person who were persons. - Some were specific targets of the Wagners, some sadly were killed simply because they happened to be there.
It's not clear which of the eight victims were targets and which, as Angie Kanepa said, were killed simply because they happened to be there. Was there a kill list? And if so, were others just caught by happenstance in the mayhem of the Wagner's murder spree? She was aware the night they walked out of the door.
In all, Angela Wagner pled guilty to 14 charges, including conspiracy to commit murder, burglary, possession of firearms, tampering with evidence, forgery, and engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity.
We now know that the night of the murders, Angela Wagner was at home watching her two grandchildren while the others allegedly went out on a kill spree. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Jeff Shane.
In the 301 days since our last episode aired, there have been several significant court hearings. The biggest yet, an unexpected appearance by accused killer mother herself, Angela Wagner. She's the second accused Wagner member to plead out. Here's Stephanie and Jeff speaking with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan and journalist Anjanette Levy about Angela's plea deal. ♪
I was surprised because apparently she's eligible for release after serving 30 years. So who wouldn't take that? Because then she can possibly, and I say possibly because she may not live that long, one day get out of prison.
This is a huge revelation. I mean, for three years now, we've talked about the four core Waggoners being at every Rodan home the night of the murders, all potentially even being trigger pullers. And to find out Angela is now kind of pulling the rug out from under that story and saying that she was in fact actually at home, presumably watching the children as her husband and two sons were out murdering the eight Rodan family members is a big shift in how that night played out.
That is a very low sentence for somebody who, by her own admission, is saying that she plotted and planned to murder eight people and knew full well that they were leaving the house allegedly to murder that night. So she stayed home and babysat and just waited for them to get home?
My thought is she doesn't have to be in the room pulling a trigger here. There have been people that have gotten the needle over the years for being a planner, a facilitator, if you will, of a broader arching theme. She knows what she's involved in and she better be thinking her lucky stars, you know, that it's 30 years that she's getting. Maybe she wasn't physically there. She was there though.
I mean, it makes you wonder, she's out going to Walmart to buy the shoes for her kids to go do it, like how a mom buys her kids shoes for the first day of school. And now she's getting off probably with the lightest sentence. Did she have the wherewithal to see that maybe if I stay home, my hands are clean or much cleaner than the rest of my family? If Angela Wagner was looking to protect her family and her son's daughter...
why would she possibly send her sons out to commit murder they too could possibly be killed you don't have to whitewash this in any way she was there you know we talked about the boots which are going to come into play i think and we talked about the weapons that were utilized and how the setups on those work she may not have had a gun in her hand but she was there in more ways than one
It's very possible she is leaving one of her sons for dead to take the hit for her. That's even more demented. She also was the shopper and involved in a lot of the planning of this.
And I can say that now because she's admitted to it. You know, she's not accused anymore. She's pleaded guilty. Although one interesting legal point is that Angela and Jake Wagner have to testify to the satisfaction of the prosecution or all four of their death sentences are back on the table. That means for an extreme example, if Angela and Jake plead the fifth or do not testify to something that the prosecution believes that they know,
According to the deal they've made, this negates the plea deal. What a show this court appearance will be. So for the first time, Billy Wagner, the accused father, George Wagner, the accused eldest son, both now are moving forward with their trials. And ultimately, Jake Wagner, the youngest son, and now mom, Angela Wagner, will testify against them, in front of them, eye to eye. And if the stories don't add up,
they all could be looking at death sentences. It basically means that Angela and Jake Wagner better bring the goods to the trial. According to Angela Wagner's testimony, her family purchased quite a few things to prepare for this murder. Special shoes from Walmart, ammunition, a magazine clip, brass catchers, and a bug detector. And a bug detector is something that detects signals emitted from cameras, which would help figure out if there were surveillance cameras.
So there was clearly a lot of thought and preparation for this murder. This was not a crime of passion. Here's special prosecutor Angie Canepa further describing the Wagners' alleged planning of the murders, specific purchases they made, and actions they took to cover up the crime. The four code defendants conspired together to plan these homicides. And all four code defendants took part in that, as well as making various purchases to accomplish the goal.
They removed the phones of all victims and cameras and other surveillance equipment. Additionally, they destroyed those items. They forged documents to make them appear to be genuine. After planning for months to commit these homicides and to carry the homicides out, the four co-defendants spent their time trying to conceal any evidence of their crime, including asking others to either avoid the scene or to be dishonest with us.
The thought of the jammers is so horrifying. I mean, the forethought that would go into disabling the Rodin's family's phones so that they wouldn't be able to call for help as they were being shot to death is really just a very scary visual.
Can you imagine horror hits your house? You're fighting for your life. The people you love are being murdered and the murderers are coming for you next and you can finally get to the phone. And now the phones are jammed and you can't even call 911. It's anybody's worst nightmare. It's a nightmare scenario and then a nightmare within that.
We know, for example, little Chris was able to hide for some time during the murders. It makes you wonder, did he have access to a cell phone or a house phone and tried to call for help and couldn't get through? The scariest thought imaginable.
When we first started covering this, it was like, you know, ninjas in the night and it was all, no one could possibly figure out who did this. They were so skilled, whoever did this murder. Now we know it's pretty sloppy. Did they just get lucky for two years? There were shell casings left at the scene. That's how these people get caught. They make mistakes. They don't cover all of their tracks. This is one of the biggest murder cases in Ohio's history, if not the biggest. ♪
So here we are, two plea deals, many motions, and two remaining trials ahead. Is it possible that Angela Wagner orchestrated the plan to murder other mothers in front of their children? And if so, how could a mother create a plan that would turn her own sons into killers? Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan remembers driving past the house where the Wagner family lived. I remember traveling out to that home.
that they all shared, that farmhouse. It made me think, you know, for that moment in time when I'm, you know, traveling through that little lane in front of the home, you sit there and you kind of consider it, you know. I remember slowing down the car and just kind of staring at it, looking at it, you know, set there and that it's a beautiful backdrop, you know, the fence and the greenery behind it. And you're thinking about, you know, what kind of planning is going on around the kitchen table? They're all party to this and it just becomes absolutely insidious.
And it seemed impossible to imagine that they were having murder meetings. We were speculating about that and it seemed impossible. But now we do know that to be a matter of fact, if we believe everything that's been said so far by Jake and Angela. Yeah, I agree. You start talking about conspiracy, you got to have a meeting. You know, you got to have a meeting. It's a collaborative effort. You know, they had meetings, trust me. I don't know if anybody get minutes, but they had meetings.
Unique to this case is that there are so many mothers involved on all sides. Three mothers were murdered that night, including beloved matriarch, 37-year-old victim Dana Roden. Dana Roden was returning home from working a double shift as a nurse that fateful night. She was shot five times in the head, four in the side of the head, and once under her chin. Dana Roden lived on Union Hill Road with her 19-year-old daughter, victim Hannah Mae Roden.
Hannah Mae Roden shared a two-and-a-half-year-old daughter with admitted murderer Jake Wagner. This child is said to be at the center of this story. Hannah Mae Roden had also given birth just five days prior and was holding her newborn when she was shot twice in the head. We should remind you that there are two Hannahs in this story. Admittedly, we know the least about mother and victim 20-year-old Hannah Gilley. She had long blonde hair, wore dark-framed eyeglasses, and hoped to start a daycare.
To add another layer to this already complicated story, Hannah Gilley was the sister of Charlie Gilley. Charlie Gilley was the guy Hannah Mae Roden started dating after her split from Jake Wagner.
So the relationship between Hannah Gilly's brother, Charlie Gilly, and Hannah Mae Roden feels significant to the story because it was the first relationship that Hannah Roden really got into after her split from Jake Wagner.
And of course, there's no way to know this for sure, or at least until the trials happen. But it makes you wonder if Hannah Gilley was shot so many times, five to be specific, because Jake Wagner felt some type of way about her brother's relationship with Hannah Mae. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
After your entire world is flipped upside down,
From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...
This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Oh my God.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in a cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I spent almost a decade researching right wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.
But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to.
Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition?
Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives.
Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On May 2nd, 2022, a mere three weeks before this episode is airing, there was another court appearance. This was a motions hearing between the prosecution and accused oldest son, George Wagner IV's defense team.
It's the latest turn in Ohio's largest homicide investigation. Attorneys for George Wagner IV say there is proof he did not kill any of the eight victims. Attorneys for the oldest Wagner son are now asking for murder charges to be dropped. The hearing revealed even more details of the Wagners' time leading up to the murders, the night itself, and the aftermath.
There was a specific focus on how the Wagner family treated women who entered their fold, beginning with victim Hannah Mae Roden, Jake Wagner's former girlfriend and mother of his child. The court lays out how Hannah Mae was manipulated, abused and controlled, all with Angela at the helm. — Rise. — Thank you. Pleased to be seated.
This is State of Ohio plaintiff versus George Washington, right in the fourth defendant, case number 2018, CR 155. Today is May 2nd, 2022, and this is a hearing. We have a hearing scheduled on motions today. The defendant was present in court with his attorneys. The record should reflect to the defense appearing today in civilian clothing without any visible restraints.
The 5'9", George Wagner IV, is thickly built with green eyes and thinning brown hair. He wears the same clothes to each court appearance, a button-down with a black vest over it. George Wagner sits flanked by his two attorneys, largely keeping his eyes lowered to the desk in front of him. Here again, Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa.
The defendant's son.
and Jake's daughter also, what Jake hoped would be his unborn child at the time. So in their reaction to when they lose control of that, there obviously also was some financial purpose behind some of what they did, right? They were homeschooled, very insular. You did not have people going off and doing things on their own. So as far as the defendant and the relationship with Hannah, this involves domestic violence towards Hannah.
When we look back at Hannah Mae Roden's social media posts in the months leading up to her murder, it's clear she was crying out for help. In one post, she states, quote, Here again, Angie Kanepa further outlining the lengths the Wagners went through to attempt to secure Hannah Mae Roden's child.
We do have admissions on the part of Jake as to pushing her up against a wall and basically having his arm in a position that it was choking her airways. We have witnesses to him chasing her in a vehicle after getting upset with her one day. His controlling nature towards Hannah, including but not limited to just dictating every aspect in regard to their shared child, that continued right up until Hannah was killed.
His controlling nature towards Hannah regarding the second child, including but not limited to telling her not to disclose the child's actual father, that it was his child, because Hannah was very forthright with Jake and told him that it was not his child.
The father of the baby Angie Kanepa is referring to is Charlie Gilley, who we just heard about.
Charlie Gilley dated Hannah Mae Roden the summer before she was murdered. He was later proven to be the father of her five-day-old. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. This is the story as old as time, and we hear it a lot, unfortunately. Jealousy plus rage often equals death, and this case seems to be no different in that regard. Honestly, it's a young mom. How do you murder somebody in that way straight to the face?
It seems as though there has to be something more personal to this. You know, we recently came across some personal photographs that were shared with us, one of which is particularly haunting. It shows Hannah Mae Roden in the hospital right after giving birth to her baby. She's sitting on her hospital bed next to her father, also victim, Chris Roden Sr., and she's holding her baby, and wedged between them is...
now who we know to be a murderer, Jake Wagner, sitting between them. And he is smiling ear to ear as though in a family photo, as if with his father-in-law and the love of his life, Hannah Mae. And really the truth of this photo is that he was going to kill Hannah Mae, her father, and her entire family. And that's the part that you just can't grasp. He had different plans for everybody involved.
And the photo, you can see in their eyes that this is not a genuine moment that anyone is enjoying other than Jake Wagner, which is just very tragic knowing what we know is to come for this family. Here again, Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa.
So they had actual people that lived near her reporting back if there were any other men around or et cetera. And they would report back to Jake. Again, Jake's obsession with Hannah, wanting to get back with her and being jealous of the relationship with other males. And as we indicated to the court, Your Honor, this was very reminiscent of what George did with the mother of his child. George Wagner's ex-wife was a woman named Tabitha. Together, Tabitha and George Wagner had a baby boy.
Angela Wagner fought tooth and nail to ensure she was in charge of the son, so much that she emotionally tormented Tabitha until the young woman snapped and gave up custody to the Wagner family. We first heard about this abusive relationship that Tabitha had with the Wagner family when we met her sister Christina and mother Patricia a few years ago in a trip that we took to Pike County, Ohio. When we were there in Pike County, it was pretty clear this was a pattern.
Tabitha was the first target and she was scared enough that she actually turned over the rights of her son to the Wagner family and that perhaps the Wagners were at it again. And because the Rodin family was fighting this custody, that that's maybe why their lives were taken.
We were there shooting a documentary for NBC's Oxygen Network called "The Rodin Family Murders." And when we started speaking to people who knew the Wagner family, what we uncovered was a pattern. A pattern of not only abuse, but a pattern of the Wagner family being obsessed with control of custody. And so while we all thought Hannah Mae Rodin was the first victim of this, it turns out that was not the case.
and that this other family felt as if they too were the victims of the Wagners' obsession with control. And I think it's worth noting that Hanameh Rodin and Tabitha were would-be sister-in-laws. They were also really close friends and allies. And ultimately, they were both alleged victims of the exact same family of abusers, the Wagners.
Tabitha's sister spoke to us at length last season, and now for the first time ever, her mother, Patricia, has also agreed to speak on the podcast as well. And keep in mind, we now know that Tabitha's mother, Patricia, is really at the center of the trials ahead. What we found is that their lives also may have been in jeopardy. Had Tabitha not signed away her rights to the Wagner family...
It seems like it might have been possible that they too could have been murdered. It's a very chilling thought. Again, Angie Canepa on the Wagners' mistreatment of Tabitha. They would meet as a family and take votes before they decided what they would do. That would range from where they were going to live down to the most intimate details between a husband and wife. For instance, intimate relations between George and Tabitha.
Angela involved herself in that. So there was literally nothing that was off limits. Everything was done as a family unit. Let that sink in. Angela Wagner was even involved in the most intimate details between a husband and wife. They ultimately made the mother of George's child sign over entire custody to George with the agreement that Tabitha could visit the child if and when the Wagners said she could.
Angela has admitted that she was the one hacking in social media, that the reason she was paying so close attention to Tabitha's Facebook was because Tabitha was making noise about taking them to court to finally get standard visitation with her child that she had never been able to receive. So that was the reason they were doing that, but they just happened to see the conversation between Hannah and Tabitha's mother.
This is a level of control that she has over her adult sons that is unparalleled. In December of 2015, sent a private Facebook message to another person telling them that she had never signed papers ever, they will have to kill me first. That message was first seen by Angela Wagner, who took a screenshot of it and later showed it to Jade and the other family members. In this moment, while illegally spying on her daughter-in-law's social media, Angela Wagner intercepts a message from Hannah Mae Roden to Patricia.
Hannah Mae stated that she would never sign custody papers ever, writing, quote, they will have to kill me first. Was this the moment that sealed the fate of the eight soon-to-be victims? Let's stop here for another break.
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.
From unbelievable romantic betrayals. The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family. When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal. This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me.
Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Oh my God.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I spent almost a decade researching right wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.
But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to.
Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition?
Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions.
Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Reporter Antoinette Levy.
If you kind of looked at the big picture and looked at all of the details and what we had been able to learn about, you know, how this whole alleged plan unfolded with Angela Wagner having access to Hannah's Facebook account and seeing the message she had exchanged with Tabitha's mother, you know, saying they'd have to kill me first. And according to the prosecutors, it was a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very
Angela shows that to Jake and then the whole plan unfolds from there. So they're the driving forces. She's pleaded guilty to basically hacking into these Facebook accounts and monitoring these people. There was a lot of planning that went into this. I mean, she was heavily involved, although she wasn't in the room, according to Jake and according to her. Somebody had to stay home with the children, right?
This is based on their collective shared suspicion of anyone outside of their family and the safety and well-being of the children that George had and that Jake had. The defendant and his family preventing Tabitha from contacting her family during the time she resided with the defendant and his family. She will tell you that I believe she was allowed to call her mother one day. I can't remember if it was Mother's birthday or Mother's Day.
Last season, we heard from Tabitha's sister, Christina, who explained to us the abuse that Tabitha went through while living with the Wagner family. This included tracking her movements, emotionally abusing her, verbally assaulting her, making her feel less than. And ultimately, Tabitha was forced to make a dramatic escape from the Wagner home. Even at the time, we were not aware of quite how intertwined Tabitha and victim Hannah Mae Roden were.
Until now. As more is coming out about the months leading up to the murders, Tabitha's name is really a part of this story in a big way. - Defendant is mainly threatening to shoot Tabitha on the last night she was dying with them before fleeing for her life, never to return to the residence. Defendant and co-defendant having Tabitha's child referred to and considered Angela as his mother, spying on her through surreptitious means, including but not limited to accessing both her and her mother's social media accounts,
And having others spy on her and get back to them, they actually tried to enlist Hannah Mae while Hannah Mae was alive to get information that Tabitha might disclose to her and report it back to them. Again, all to maintain custody and control of the children. Defendant and his co-defendants taking actions to prevent Tabitha from being able to regain custody, including but not limited to trying to keep the child from her for more than a year so that they could claim abandonment.
That was their distinct stated purpose for doing that. As we just heard, the Wagners tried to manipulate Hannah Mae and Tabitha for their own means. The two young women were both in near identical situations and were very close. Here's Tabitha's sister, Christina. They were best friends. Whenever Hannah was basically leaving Jake and all that,
And she was upset at her at first.
because my sister had left her alone to deal with it all by herself. But where they were best friends, my sister took up for Hannah a lot and she didn't have that support anymore.
Stephanie and Jeff spoke with reporter Anjanette Levy and death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan.
And if you think of the details of the case, they all signed the custody documents. Should Jake, Hannah or George be killed or die, Angela gets custody of the children. She sends them out fully knowing my boys and my husband may be killed and I may be taking care and raising their children for the rest of my life to carry out this plan. I get choked up.
I hadn't even thought of that, Anjanette. That is even more demented than I thought because she gets custody specifically of Jake's daughter that he shared with Hannah. Frankly, she never had a daughter of her own, speaking for Angela. Is this the granddaughter she never had? And is there a version of this where the greatest plot is to have everybody go away? I think to your point, Steph, the idea that she's not there, I think that's a more disgusting level to me.
that, you know, here boys, go forth and do as I've said at this moment in time. And that that's kind of the impetus behind this. And she kind of sends her minions out to do this thing for her that she's planned. So again, this collective intent, this strong desire on the enterprise to keep complete custody and control of the minor children, Jake threatened Hannah Mae with violence.
saying that he would kill her and her body would never be found before he killed her. And again, this is a collective response. There's nothing they do, not even there was private affairs without the consent or willingness or participation of the other members of his family. Speaking out for the first time on this podcast is Patricia, mother of Tabitha, the ex-wife of accused eldest son George Wagner IV.
Patricia's involvement is now known to be at the center of the entire case. Yes, I think she's guilty as sin because I know the demeanor of Angela. She tries to be the loving, caring mother. But if you've seen the side of Angela that I've seen, you could tell that she was all fake. You could talk to Angela and the first thing that went through your mind is, well, she's a conniving bitch. And if you ask Taffeta, that's why Taffeta left. I'd call her today and ask her, Taffeta, why'd you leave George? She couldn't take Angela no more.
They were only afraid of Angela.
But what we also know is that there are new theories that dispel all of these accusations. Everybody thinks all the bad stuff happens in the big cities, but the devil works everywhere. Could Angela Wagner simply be lying? And just who is she? It's impossible to imagine that custody is the only thing. And in recent reports and interviews we've done, it seems as though there may be a larger plot in play.
There's a lot more secrets to uncover in Pike County that involved the Wagner family and the Rodin family.
People who could not or would not speak out before have come out of the woodwork. More on that this season. If you haven't listened to seasons one and two last week's How We Got Here episode, we'll catch you up.
For more information on case photos, follow us on Instagram at KT underscore studios. The Piketon Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. Audio mixing by Ken Novak. The Piketon Massacre is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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