Hangman
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It's a goddamn children's game. Play BioKiller. We saw Hangman, so you know what that means. Now it's time for...

How did this get made? We're gonna have a good time, celebrate some failure, not just be the hater, cause you know you wonder, how did this get made? Let's follow in the mediocrity of subpar art, perhaps we'll find the answer to the question, how did this get made? Hello people of Earth, and welcome to How Did This Get Made. I'm your host, Tal John Shear, and this is the podcast where we talk about movies that are so bad, they are actually great movies.

Better than great. They are fantastic. And this is no exception. The 2017 film Hangman starring Al Pacino, the ninth time he has played a cop. It's the lowest ranking cop movie of his on Rotten Tomatoes with below 40 percent. The movie is simple. There is a serial killer out there who is killing people and also leaving clues to a game of Hangman. But who is it?

Doesn't make a difference. It won't be something you can figure out. Here to break down the movie are my two co-hosts, Jason Manzoukas and June Diane Raphael. How are you both? I'll be honest, Paul. It took you almost as long as it took me to get through this movie to get through the intro for this movie. I'm sure it will be edited perfectly, but this movie was as impenetrable as it was to summarize for you.

I mean, this is an odd movie because I haven't found myself laughing out loud as much in a movie that we've watched for this show than this film. But at the same time, when you get to the last 40 minutes, you're like, what? I invested all of this for this? It's so wild. But...

I mean, I did enjoy the first hour. I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Oh, you're like going to McDonald's. Yeah. Yeah. June, are you okay?

You know, here's what I'll say. I want to start with the positive, actually, because there is a lot I really did, like much like Paul. I mean, we were laughing. We were truly having some LOLs. And I...

I've never heard of this. When did this movie come out? I don't know. This is one of those movies that doesn't exist. This, I feel like, is the kind of movie that they make for foreign sales explicitly. This is AI. This is, you know, this is, when you say it's impenetrable, that's exactly right. This movie is unknowable and you can't

It's it. It doesn't ever happen. It doesn't. It's not a movie. It doesn't not at all. It doesn't stay. The actors are not there in it. It's the, the camera work is not, it's just not, it's not, it's not, it's not a real movie.

It's not a real movie. If you told me, like June said, like AI, it was assembled and cobbled together from the pieces of other movies, it would make sense why it doesn't add up. Can I say one thing? Can I say one thing? Sure. So there's a, is there a lot that happens in this movie? Who knows? But we'll get into all of it.

But one of the things that I was so confounded by was the way this movie was shot, because there are multiple moments where important action is happening. And I mean, like someone's getting, you know, we're revealing the killer or someone's stabbed or someone got away. And I simply couldn't see. They didn't ever show. So dark.

It's so dark. And I kept on rewinding. Me too. I did the exact, I kept rewinding to see, did they just reveal something I'm supposed to pick up on? And every time. Cutting to reaction shots.

But I can't see what we are all, everybody else has seen. You can't see it. And even if you did, it wouldn't make sense because we didn't know that information beforehand. It's not like a twist. Yes. If they had shown us anything, it's there. It's the movie is trying to create suspense, trying to create all these things that it is not itself showing.

bringing about. So by teasing you, the reality is, correct me if I'm wrong, but when we see who the killer is, it's not anybody we've ever met in the past, correct? Nope, nor is it anyone that has been referenced. But Paul, we did meet that person in the first scene. No, we met...

Somebody else. The person getting out of that truck was not him, was it? Yes, it was. Yes. That's the only connection, though. That's the only connection, though. And we don't know anything about him that helps. But I mean, like, we haven't seen he's not one of the cops. He's not one of the. By the way.

I would have been okay with that. So that man who sideswipes Al Pacino in the beginning, that's him. And he did it on purpose. That's the killer. And that's where we find that out because he was in jail for nine months. I guess for that sideswipe, which seems like a pretty heavy sentence. Was the goal to just drive that day and sideswipe Al Pacino while he sits outside of a bar so that this whole plan can be set in motion? Because here's the other thing that occurred to me at the end of the movie.

If you're going to set up a movie wherein the game of Hangman is like the serial killer's calling card, right? Mm-hmm. That's like... Then we've got a Hangman murderer. We've got like... The press would be on this. We've got like a whole thing. And the whole...

ethos of it would be trying to figure out what's the word. Yes. They never try. They never engage in trying to solve the puzzle. Not only that, but you would think that we have to solve the crime before he solves the before. Right. Rather, all the letters are revealed. And in fact, they don't. The guy wins. The serial killer wins because by the time all the letters are filled in, he's killed everybody.

Okay, and for someone, I just have you both know, and then Paul, I want to hear what you're going to say. But for someone like me, a winner of Celebrity Wheel of Fortune. Oh, my gosh. Here we go. I'm also a winner of Celebrity Wheel of Fortune. Did you win $160,000? I didn't win that much. I didn't think so. So as a winner of Celebrity Wheel of Fortune, $160,000 for a wonderful organization called Oceana. They protect and restore the world's oceans. I won about $80,000. Okay.

So I guess I won double. So as a winner, once I realized hangman, we get to figure out a word puzzle. I'm ready. I am ready. Give me a couple letters. If I'm in the Monroe police force, I'm calling in Vanna White. I'm calling in June Diane Riefel. I hope I get a call. In hangman experts. Yes. Hangman experts. It's not even a long phrase. It's one word. And also there's no attempt

So they start figuring out these clues, but it's like at a certain point, like just throw some words on the table. Wait, wait, but June, we meet Al Pacino or we meet him a year later in a car doing crosswords together.

In Latin. Which, by the way, makes no fucking sense. Where do you get those? So are the questions in Latin? He can't be filling in the answers. He can't be translating. Well, that was my whole thought. It's clearly not... Because he's getting like a consumer crossword. It looks like a book that you would buy at the airport. That's what he's doing. And he's like, oh, you're doing it in Latin. He's like, I'm always an Alta boy. But...

It wouldn't work. But yet they go so far to get you to not only is he good at crosswords, but he does them in Latin. And then this whole movie is a crossword in Latin. And he only figures it out here at the end. Every letter is present, but the last one. I'm I.

I was the I. I was the I. But here's my problem with that. They're bad cops. He knew it. He already drew the line of the eviction. But he didn't. This is my problem with the serial killer. Aside from obviously what the fact that he's killing people, but he doesn't have Al Pacino did not evict him as a child. Yes, he did.

Wait, what? That was the flashback. No. Al Pacino's... What's the Latin word mean? Eviction. Eviction. It's just eviction? It's just eviction. But Al Pacino is just a cop. I thought he was just a cop who found... He evicted him? Yeah, listen. Listen to this clip. I remember the last time I saw you, you were just up to here. Just a little boy of five or six years old. I was a cop. I was doing my job. What did I do to you? When that day was over...

I washed my hands. I did. I know I did. And I know now that was a mistake. It was a tragic mistake. Jimmy, I remember those little eyes looking at me as if I was the one who killed your father. But I didn't. I didn't do it. He hung himself. I was there, Jimmy.

I was there witnessing that trauma. You know what? Fuck you! Paul, this clip didn't explain it, my friend. Well, if you listen on, he was more upset. I listened to this clip. He was upset that he didn't take care of him in the home for wayward children. Yes. But that doesn't make him an eviction. It doesn't make him eviction man. Yeah. Yeah.

He did evict him. He's going to kill nine people so he can spell out eviction man? Who do you get more upset with? The repo man or the company like Allstate who's repossessing your car? The repo man. You don't get mad at Allstate. But he wasn't evicting them. He was the repo man.

He just found the body, though. He was doing my job. What Paul is saying, Jason, is that Al Pacino, young Al Pacino, shows up to evict them and happens to find the body, which I do not think is the case. Don't police put eviction notices on doors?

Landlords do. I don't think, wait, Paul, are you saying that Pacino is there in an official police duty to evict them? That's what he's saying, Jason. That's what he's saying. Oh, so that's why, okay. If that is the case. It is not. It's not in the movie, I don't think. Now, that's a leap. Okay, so here we go. That's a leap that I'm saying. Only law enforcement officers can evict a tenant after they have a court order.

Oh, boy. Yes, you are. It's yes and no. Maybe that is what they're going for, but it's really not explicitly laid out that way in the movie. I mean, technically, the landlord is responsible. We don't know any of this story. We don't know any of this story of the boy and the hung father. A majority of this movie happens way before we check in. The whodunit of this movie is so unsatisfying. Oh, God.

Because when it is finally revealed and we don't know who this person is and when his motivations are revealed, we don't understand nor have we been privy to those. So it's unsatisfying in every thriller mystery. Well, let me go back to the first question I wrote down when I watched this movie. And I want to ask this and not it's going to come across snarky, but I want you to both listen to it in a way that I meant it.

Does Al Pacino need the money or does he actually like this part? Because I want to get to the bottom of that. Like Al Pacino doesn't seem to need the money. So he must have read this and felt, yeah, this is for me. I disagree a little only because not that I disagree, but

I think because this Al Pacino, I think, does two of these a year. Like this is like John Malkovich is doing this. Bruce Willis until his retirement was doing this. There's a lot of actors who are in movies that are that are like this, that are like police procedural, that are direct to foreign markets. Mostly they sell big because these names, these people are names. They sell big foreign movies.

And so they can get paychecks for very little work. You know, this movie costs nothing. I mean, he is on screen a lot. And I will say that he's not sleepwalking through it.

Oh, no, he's making choices. A lot of choices. Sometimes he looks sleepy. I do have my second question was, when did Al Pacino become Southern? I know we just accept it now, but this is... First of all, where is Monroe? Where is Monroe? It's like, yes. Nolans? I have no idea. It looks like a big city. And I wrote, where is he? But then they're talking like, you retired from the FBI to go back to your hometown. Monroe where? And yes, for sure, Pacino sounds like he's...

in the bayou. Pacino sounds like he's in a Looney Tunes cartoon. He sounds like Foghorn Leghorn. We should put them together. Who now? Let me tell you, when I go over here, I'll tell you, FDA, don't put that stuff in that man. I'm like, what is going on? I couldn't make heads or tails of his accent at all. He's giving him his little Pacino hoo-ah, hoo-ah, all that stuff, except it's definitely got a bayou lilt to it.

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I think that Pacino was like, I like this script. Will you let me do it if I can wear my own scarves? And they were like, yeah, you can wear scarves. And he was like, great. Like, it did feel like he was dressed like he didn't go through wardrobe. He's like, I'll just wear what I'm wearing.

Like, because he does. Pacino now is an interesting character. I watched him do a cooking segment with the guy who has donkey sauce. It was a guy, Fieri. Like, he's like, oh, I love you. Oh, wow. Yeah. So he's like Pacino's getting out there. I guess what my question is, though, it's just a money gig, but it does look like.

He's not doing the money gigs the way other people are doing the money gigs. He is on set, looks like night shoots because every place they enter is completely dark. There's never a light on anywhere. They don't have flashlights.

They're police officers who enter pig factories, private homes in the middle of the night with no flashlights. Why? They are bad at their jobs. Every step of the way, they are behind. The person who breaks the most clues is Brittany Snow, who is an investigative reporter who is given unparalleled

unprecedented access to murder scenes and cases and everything for reasons that I don't know. You're so right that she's given this unprecedented access. But I said to Paul, I was like, I understand when people, when reporters go on a ride along and I get, okay, the cops want a new, you know, they want this profile to kind of like soften their image or whatever. However, she convinced Captain to let her in. But I,

Okay, the mayor to do this. But I'm like, that's... Having ride-along status is one thing. I have never heard of a reporter walking into an active crime scene. Taking pictures. Taking pictures. Taking cell phone pictures. Not putting on gloves. Not putting on booties. No.

And I'm like, this is, they'll never be able to try a case. Had the serial killer survived, I believe he would have gotten off because with like any sort of decent defense attorney, they're going to be like, why was this random civilian walking around these crime scenes? Yeah.

Absolutely. I also want to know about her reporting style because she seems to report or record a lot on her iPhone, but doing it at one question at a time. Like she's in a ride along. You see her take out her phone, hit record and go, tell me, what about this? He answers. She hits stop and puts it away. One question at a time interview. Like, yeah.

I find, I find that to be a very, uh, and he's like, sure. She says, can I record you now? Sure. Like on camera. And he's like, yeah, sure. Okay. Like what? No. And he's behind his desk. By the way, that police, uh, station look like, uh,

a high-class architectural office. It's like... It was like a loft. It was like a downtown loft. My favorite detail about that police station was... Oh, this is my favorite part. There's one shot where behind Brittany Snow, as she's looking around the office, there are not one, but two pictures of a sunset. Same picture. Yes. And then, Paul, you saw this, so I pointed it out to you. Jason, did you see this? No. Then you sort of move from Brittany to him...

Or I think you see those sunsets when she's looking around and happens to find the file about his wife. But then when that scene where he's talking to Brittany Snow for the first time, behind him is the same picture of a sunset. That postcard. I thought it was a postcards. It's not a postcard. You're right. It's a photograph. Sunsets.

And you will see the sunsets in every picture. Maybe it's, maybe it's metaphoric. Like this is the sunset of Al Pacino's career, not as an actor, but his, his cop career. I don't know. But also when you just talked about her getting that file, she pulls out that file, which is like right on top. Like as if Carl Urban every day is like, all right, let me go back to looking at pictures of my wife, my dead wife, my murdered dead wife.

She looks at that for no more than seven and a half seconds and solves the case. You're like, oh, yeah.

She is such a better police officer in terms of she's getting clues, figuring stuff out, putting connections together in a way that they are a failure, Carl Urban and Al Pacino. The number of times Al Pacino hits himself and is like, oh, I should have known. I should have known. I should have known.

Oh, no, that's the one that put chief in the hospital, the drunk driver that put chief in the hospital. Ha ha.

He's like, he's celebrating. Oh, my favorite line was when he says, you know how many people are told their loved ones died gruesomely? Crazy line to say. Like, don't worry about that. I got that under control. I'll tell anyone how their loved one was murdered. So here's what I think. I think they were going for...

And I wonder if this was an Al Pacino pass on the script because what I think the story might have been was that he's such a kind of detached and inhumane cop and so not attached to the work. So not attached to what, you know, the sort of humanity of it. Police work and the situations he's in and the victims that.

that moment really should land at the end where he realizes like eviction, like this guy, I didn't check in on him. I didn't care. Just doing my job. Right. But, but,

We know because we've watched him like this woman, you know, Urban's wife is going to wanted him to walk her down the aisle. Like we see him as a quite caring man. So it doesn't make a lick of sense. This is the arc of the character that he learned to care. But I would argue that he cares so much that he seems to be doing police work in the beginning for.

surveilling the bar, right? I couldn't, the donut shop. I couldn't figure out, but I couldn't figure out, am I supposed to be watching Pacino's movie? Carl Urban's movie? Like who is this? Who's the story of this way? Is this a story about the medical examiner? Oh my God. The medical examiner should be fired.

The medical examiner should be fired. She's having watched so much law and order. She doesn't know anything. What time do you think that died? I don't know. I don't know.

What? How about this? Where they literally take a watch and they go, dust that for Prince. No, that's not her job, nor would the watch have made it this far. They would bring a cadaver in there. They wouldn't just be like, and look around here and see what you got. She's always given her opinion. They died by hanging. I deeply appreciated that actress because she was giving us a lot

Okay, so there's two performances that I want to call out. She was harried. Absolutely spectacular.

She was excited. She was nervous. I've never seen someone's energy bubbling up on screen like that. And she's doing an autopsy. It was full on comedy. I don't know. It's crazy. The bones seem to be broken before she's been in the hospital a couple times. She was so struck by her own work, which I would imagine at a certain point

you become a little detached from, but she was so thrown by every piece of information. Which would almost make you think like, oh, is this a small town? They've never seen anything like this. But I don't think that's the case. No, I agree. It's not the case. They're in a big town. It's more like Gotham, I think.

She's acting as though I've never seen anything like this. This is crazy. I'm like out of my element. Whereas what they're coming to her for and she's hugging Pacino. Oh my God, I missed you. You're supposed to be fishing, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, what do we got? And this should be old school rat-a-tat-tat. Let me drill it down for you. Here's the info. This should be an exposition dump. And basically every question they have for her, the expert, she's like, I don't know. I'll be honest. I don't know.

I don't know. It's going to take some time. I'm as good as mine. Meanwhile, there's a random reporter standing in the room, too. I'm like, isn't this a sterile environment? I also think, by the way, just to go back to that Al Pacino hugging her, like, clearly Pacino's been retired for a little bit. Because I think, you tell me, when he got his car sideswiped, he was...

kind of in the same spot doing the crosswords. So was he retired at that point? I think so, right? Yeah. Maybe about a year? Oh, no, he wasn't. Oh, no, he wasn't. Oh, he was active, okay. Because he was on the radio. He was listening to the radio. Yeah. Okay, so I love that, like,

Just to go to what June's saying, like a cop who doesn't care. He hugs everyone in that precinct. Like the captain loves him. And I think that that's Pacino as Al Pacino. Like, come here. Everybody's got to love me. Everybody's got to love me. You want a Don Pacino? There's another performance in this picture that is remarkable.

it is absolutely outstanding and I really want yes please I really want to I know you're gonna say um call out the the actor who plays the priest oh yeah who has to describe and and I I almost want to watch the scene again because it was so well done first of all moment he's on screen I was just taken with him like I was like oh everybody else is acting and this man is just existing and

And I just thought he was so fucking good. But he has to tell a tale about how someone took his blood in the middle of the night in a vial. Okay. This is the former criminal turned priest that they're talking to. You don't know her? No. Well, you're going to have to do some explaining then because your blood was in her apartment. My blood? I don't have it. You're not going to believe this.

Frankly, I still don't understand it myself. But a couple of months ago, I woke up in the middle of the night. Someone's standing over me, a man. And I struggled, but he put something over my face. And eventually I passed out. When I woke up, there was blood coming out of my arm. I mean, it was dripping down my arm like I'd gotten a shot or something.

So, okay, so you're telling us that a guy broke into your house and stole your blood? That's the story you're telling? That's... I told you you wouldn't believe me. This rings a bell to me. It's kind of a coincidence when you think of it. Last Thursday, I don't know if I told you, I woke up in the middle of the night and for some reason I had a pink tutu on.

I'm a serious fuzzy feather sticking out of my ass. Real talk. I have a real question here. Sure.

What? What? Why did the killer take his blood? And why wasn't that ever woven into the rest of that? Why isn't that? I'm like a real question here. The motives of the killer make no sense. So he stole the blood from a priest a little bit of it because he's months ago. So he could spread it around.

So he could spread it? And the priest is like, you're going to like this. This is actually pretty funny. The priest's delivery of this information, they're like, how could, how did we find your blood? And he's like, okay, you're not going to believe this, but I woke up in the middle of the night. But I did believe it. He told me.

I do believe you, Breeze. Why? But they're not curious as to, they don't even put that up as part of the killer's MO. Because if you're a serial killer, I imagine that you actually do want credit for your work.

Yes, this is not seven. Seven, I get it. I get it. Zodiac, I get it. Like, this is just this. I feel like, June, your statement earlier in the podcast that this feels as though it was done by AI is absolutely right, because I feel like it's pulled a lot of the aesthetic choices from other things away.

But none of the story elements. So the story doesn't add up at all. But all of the the all the stuff that's been. Yes. All the trappings, all the tropes are there. Because here's the thing. If you take a step back, you have a cop who has a murdered wife who was killed in a grisly way. You have people being killed in a grisly way.

being a part of a game of hangman. You have a reporter who also had a run-in with a criminal where the police saved her, and she has a permanent scar. Like, these people are getting scarred because they're getting the letters written on their body. Then you have a police officer who is retired, but we don't really... He seems great. It doesn't seem like he was... Is this all... Is the whole... Is the serial killer's...

And forgive me, I know we're spending all of this just really trying to parse the plot. What else can we do? Exactly. Is the serial killer's motivation...

just to get back at Pacino, a.k.a. Eviction Man. I wish this movie had been called Eviction Man. And as a result, Carl Urban and Brittany Snow are innocent bystanders, right? No, because Carl Urban's wife was the first victim. She's victim number one. But is it because Pacino loved her? Is that because Pacino loved that woman? I think what happened was the first person

person who was killed carl urban's wife was killed by that man where they go to his house and he's already killed himself and then this guy picked up the torch whoa that could that be part of it because carl urban's wife was killed he didn't finish the job i think that he's copying copycat

I think he is, right? I thought that that was part of the twist. No, I think there is a twist, but I do agree with you that there's two killers. Whoa! There's definitely two, because there's our killer who was the little boy and is now, you know, current day serial killer. Yes. However, I do, and he was the one who did the V on Carl Urban's, but I believe that we might pan out in that scene.

that little boy scene to find that he has a twin. Whoa. Wait, when are we going to do that? In the sequel. The sequel is what? When? What? Well, the sequel is, the sequel is happening. I mean. That's what I'm saying because we don't get to know, we, there, there is another, there is another hangman and he is clearly, now I think what might've happened is his, what the sequel will be is that that boy is,

was adopted by a wealthy couple and like went on to this, like has a really prestigious job. This is a nature nurture scenario. Yeah, definitely. All right. So, all right. So I guess what we're saying is this, if we were to take the plot at face value, what we saw on the screen, what we were to understand, that's going to be hard. If we were to take what we, what the material on the screen and the word said dictated Al Pacino was,

was a part of the eviction of this young boy because his father didn't pay the rent. The father killed himself. And then the young boy was mad that Al Pacino never checked in on him. So Al, the first crazy thing to be mad at. I know. And the first, that's not worth holding onto and killing nine people as a result. No. And I want to hear the rest of this, Paul, but why would a child, if a police officer expect a cop to take,

And maybe, and I'll give you maybe a five-year-old in grief and mental duress makes a logical leap that doesn't make sense. But why as an adult, can he not look at the situation and be like, oh, that police officer was not the person who did this. Here's what I'll say that maybe answers this. I think you talked earlier about Al Pacino doing a pass on the script.

I think Al Pacino might have toned down his character because what would make this all make sense is simply this.

goes to the boy don't worry I'll take care of you I'll look at like he needed to promise him you know what I know your dad's not here but I'll be here for you forever you know like I say I say I say is that is that your daddy up there he's like a full-blown southern like gentleman by the way just so we know Monroe Georgia is where it takes place oh interesting wait Monroe Georgia

So wait, Carl Urban is from the South as well? Everybody in this movie is from the South. Well, yeah, because it's Britney Spears' hometown. Sorry, it's Britney Murphy. Britney Snow's hometown. Wow. Spears, Murphy. Spears, Murphy, Snow? What?

That's your ranking of Britney's? Okay. By the way, popularization of Monroe, Georgia, 15. 15 people? 15 people. That makes sense for why a lot of these scenes were so empty. I was like, how does nobody work at the pig factory? Go ahead. Okay. My favorite. My favorite. One of my favorite moments. Again, I had some laughs.

is after we're in that church and Al Pacino gets knocked over, although again, I had to rewind that scene because I didn't see the impact of him being knocked over. So I was like, what just happened? Well, it's also shot so bizarrely in order to cover the stunt double. I could not for the life of me figure out the geography of what the fuck I was watching. So I...

But he gets knocked over by a man who's hanging from maybe a crucifix or the ceiling. And there's a pig head on that man. And then he gets knocked over. And then later on, an autopsy is being done by our favorite medical examiner who's just as flummoxed. The thing that I love so much is that there's the body. And then just to the side, there's a table with the pig head on it. Yeah. Wait, by the way. Hello, my good boy.

And then Pacino's like, you know what? All these pig heads have an ID number. I know that. Which, by the way, doesn't mean... I say, I say, I say. When I grew up in the barnyard, I knew. Now listen to me. Listen to here. I'm going to also say that the FDA is not getting up in meat. That would be the USDA, right? FDA is more like packaged foods. Who knows? I don't know. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Chad GPT wrote this.

All right, but can we go back to the pig head scene? Because this is, I don't want to skip over my favorite part, which is,

Al Pacino goes down. Oh, my back. Which again, you don't even really see. And everyone stops. Like they let the bad guy get away. It's not like, because in a movie it would be like, and this is the AI of it all. He'd be shot. And they'd be like, oh no, we got to put pressure on the wound. He's like, my back. That is just a little sore. And they repeatedly, yeah, they repeatedly are pointing a gun at the murderer and don't shoot.

Multiple times. Multiple times. They have the guy in their sights and they do not shoot that person. And I just don't understand. I don't get it. Like this feels like antithetical to what their whole job is. But by the way, good work on them as police officers are not going to just shoot first. They have to get the evidence. They have to figure out the evidence first, you know? But I did like when Brittany Snow went, pigs, pigs, cops.

Yeah. Cops are pigs. He's taunting you. He's taunting you. No shit. Did anyone else have trouble when, when, okay. So there's later on, later on there, there's a, um, the captain is one of our victims and she, we're in her house. We're trying to figure out, we're trying to find the killer. And there's another cop who's in the house. Um, who's left for dead on, in a bathtub. And, um,

We realize that our killers walked out in the cop clothes. And this was another moment for me. And rode away on a dirt bike. The reason why we realize this is because Carl Urban turns around and looks over the toilet bowl and sees like a cop belt there.

I looked at that. I don't know if anyone else did. I had to stare at it. I rewound it three times to figure out what am I looking at? At points, I thought I was looking down a drain or through a window. I was like, what am I? I can't see what this is. None of the clues are clues. They were giving me things that were feeling as though, oh, this is important. But then they weren't giving me things that clearly were important. Like, again, the hangman game. But.

But they never sat in a conference room and said, what might this be? And how might that inform the crime spree that we are every 24 hours? Someone is murdered. I'm not. And they only ever are the three of them. You would think the entire city would be shut down. Here's the thing. I also want to bring up just just to hit this back for one more second to.

When we see evidence, people sometimes don't name it as well. Like when Brittany Snow looked at that thing that the woman had on the porch, she's like, what was that? I didn't know what I was looking at. What was in the ashtray, Jason? What was that?

Oh, I do know what that is. What was it? It was the same. Okay. So that when they go to that house, it's defined Joey, the guy who was on a date with the woman who the first victim, right? Right. But what they realize is the woman is Joey. Okay. Not the man. They realize that because Brittany snow notices in her ashtray, the same dark cigarettes that were in the ashtray at the murdered woman's home.

Oh. So that woman must have been there, not the guy inside. But why did that woman run? She Ferris Bueller's through the town. She Ferris Bueller's because she doesn't know the woman is dead. But again, this is a lie. But why is she running? Because she got scared because she's a... For a drug charge? Yes. Or abuse? Well, both, maybe. And then what my favorite thing... This might be my favorite thing

in movies again with like the AI element.

A person running mid-run from a cop going, I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. It's like, I get like what's the cusser on, but to do it mid-run, to do it mid-run, like you'd be like, oh, okay, sorry. And then blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. That's like an improv scene. I didn't do anything. You are actively running away. Like this is, this movie is, I'm going to say 95% to being a naked gun movie.

Agreed. You could pivot Al Pacino into being Leslie Nielsen right now in the world with minimal effort. Oh, my gosh. He's already basically there. Al Pacino should start making Leslie Nielsen-style Abrams Brothers spoof movies. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Instead of it being Liam Neeson, who I know it is, it should be Al Pacino, which would be fantastic.

Delightful. Oh, him just do. I mean, we know that he can do it because of Duncacino from the Jack and Jill movie. He can do comedy. Oh, he can do it. He would kill. And it's like, because that's where this movie is. This movie is almost a parody of a bad Al Pacino cop movie. And there's so many things said that make no sense throughout that could be funny or jokes. Like when they're trying to find the janitor in the church, the priest says, oh, he cleans whenever he can.

It's not like that would be something you would say to somebody who has a hobby. It's not like, oh yeah, he paints whenever he gets a free moment. It's like this guy, he's a janitor. Whenever he gets a chance to clean, at two in the morning, four in the morning, this guy's going to clean. I mean, he's going to... Well, you know, it's a church in...

In small town Georgia. So we're packed all day. So he can only clean from 2 to 6 a.m. I mean, if he can get in there. Because we're just so busy here at the church in Monroe, Georgia. Come on. But whenever he can, he loves it. He loves it. He loves it so much. Oh, my God. But what I don't understand about the serial killer is...

is why he's choosing certain victims. Some of them are related to our people. Some of them aren't. Some of them aren't. And Joey, because Joey does end up getting murdered later on, correct? Yes. Why? Why? The reason that Pacino gives is he is punishing us for saving the chief because they saved Sarah Shahi.

And as a result, that means that he's got to kill someone else now. And so he kills Joey. Their dear friend, Joey? I mean, they don't know Joey. I know, but that's what's, that's again, what's so confusing. I, at the, by the end of the movie, I don't understand the killer's MO at all. In a world that we live in, that is so obsessed with true crime and serial killers and documenting and documentaries and podcasts about all this stuff.

This is so slapdash. This is so like not compelling casework, but,

that I'm like, why do they think we'll just go along with this? None of this is satisfying. None of this is, there's no aha moments. I'm not ahead of the movie ever. None of it. You can't have the killer be someone who is not introduced or even spoken of. Like again, go back to a scene and have Al Pacino be like, I made some mistakes in my career. I let things fall through the cracks. He never says that. Like, you know, at,

At any point, I think that we're also trying to figure out who murdered Carl Urban's wife. And when Carl Urban is confronted with the most logical explanation, this is the guy. There's a V on your wife's chest. He's like, no, no, it's not his M.O. It's like, why wouldn't you choose to believe it? You are looking for...

You were looking for it. You were an FBI agent. You were an FBI agent. Do your casework. Do your due diligence. But this is a man who is looking for connections who refuses the connection. He isn't. He's like he actively. OK, so here's another possible twist. And I know I said this to Paul while we were watching it. I said Urban's the killer. And Paul was like, no, don't.

But there's something very strange to me about the way he's treating his wife's death. Because even later on when Al Pacino is like, again, trying to sort of reopen the investigation and also reopen it. It's only been a year. Why is this a cold case? Oh, I don't know if it's has it only been a year since his wife was killed? Yeah.

Oh, okay. Yeah, because it was nine months when the killer was in jail. Yeah, it's been a year. Remember when Carl Urban's on the phone with someone, he's like, I guess I'm just trying to figure out what happened to my wife, and hangs up frustrated? So Carl Urban is clearly some... Who's he talking to? I don't know, but then when Chino brings it back up, he's like, oh, what, do you want to put a whole team on it?

You want to put a team on it? It's like, well, why not? Which way do you want it, man? Which way do you want it? Do you want to figure this out or do you want it to go away? His wife was killed in a ritualistic, brutal murder. It wasn't like a hit and run. Like, I think what you're led to believe in the beginning was it was like a hit and run. It was like a...

But then when you reveal how she was killed, literally like slashed up in their home, you would be like, yeah, I think we should maybe go a little deeper on this one. But also remember when he's talking about

his wife's murder, he says, you know, Pacino asked him what happened and he said, you know, she called me up and she said to come over that we should try and work things out. So they were like broken up or separated or whatever. He was too involved in his job. And it very much seemed to me like the murder was going to be very wrapped up in Carl Urban's character and somehow related to that storyline. And it was just coincidence. Yeah.

Well, to be no, no, no. I know. Here's what I think. Back to my theory of if we just take what is written, Al Pacino abandons a boy. The boy grows up. He's like, I want to take out. Crazy to say when he didn't have any responsibility. Well, let me just let's just let's just go into the idea. Sorry, June, only in his powers as eviction man.

Which, by the way, I got to say, the true Latin is just eviction. It is not eviction man. The true Latin is just, but I want to, I do want any merch from this show to say eviction man. Eviction man. Eviction man. Just a shirt that says that in Latin. Scott said it means eviction man, and I didn't know that. I thought it meant eviction man. Yeah, Scott in the chat said it means eviction man, and he's smarter than us, so I believe it. All right.

He evicts this boy. The boy decides he's going to take revenge on Al Pacino by doing this game of hangman, which as Al Pacino says, celebrates his dad's hanging, which I don't think is the right term to celebrate. Recreates might be the better word, but celebrates the dad's hanging. And the first clue was going to be doing that to his partner's wife.

And I think that the original plan was to get people all around because the cop, the, uh, the head of the police precinct is another person that is attacked. I think it was all going to be people around Al Pacino to, and to get maximum damage. The janitor, the janitor was some, it wasn't the janitor, someone that Al Pacino had also put in jail or something. I think that, that I'm going to just say yes to that because I don't remember it, but, uh,

But I will say that that was the original plan. I think the original plan was to go and get people all around Al Pacino's life, but because Al Pacino has no real life anymore...

With any other people that he likes, they have to go to other people. There's not a niece. There's not a cousin. There's not a... I mean, it just all felt so... Yeah. None of it is satisfying. Well, but that's the other... None of it is satisfying at all. I agree, Paul. You might very well be right, but it's not satisfying. None of these people, none of these clues clicking into place...

Give us any of the thrills of Silence of the Lambs. Give us any of the thrills of... Because we're never in the mindset of the villain. I totally agree. I wasn't saying that I was making sense. I was saying that I think that that's the idea. But I will say that... I'm so mad at you, Paul. I'm so mad at you, Paul. I guess it's like, what I can't figure out is... Paul, why did you write this movie? Well, look, I got to tell you, I made a lot of money on it. Here's the thing. You could make it so much...

more compact and better by having that priest do it. Well, well, well, David Green, I thought I put you away years ago. And he's like, well, I'm out now. I'm a priest. Well, I don't know. I don't believe you now. And I won't believe you. Like you could have just drawn connections so easily. Every person they encountered, this is my favorite toy shop. Going here all the time. Love looking at manga. You know, it's like whatever it is.

You know, it's yeah, you're absolutely right. And what's crazy about it is the movie is so bad that it tells you immediately the cold open of the movie is Al Pacino doing a crossword in his car. His car gets sideswiped. He pulls the van over. The guy gets out. We see the skull necklace hanging from the from the thing. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

We never returned to that van, the skull necklace again until it shows up again in Brittany snow's apartment. And Al Pacino's like, I know who the killer is. It's a guy I pulled over a year ago from the cold open. And again,

That guy has never been in the movie again. And he wasn't chasing him. Like, that's the other thing. It felt like he was chasing... No, exactly. That was a random hit and run. It felt like we were on the case. It was absolute, absolute random. And I'll say one more thing about that stupid pendant that's hanging the weird...

nail or whatever, that would be the equivalent of me wearing one of those scented trees around my neck because it's hanging on the rear view mirror. It wasn't like, oh, I noticed his necklace. Like it was, he noticed it hanging from the rear view mirror. So he's like, ah. And Pacino, this is what's crazy about it. We see it in the cold open in extreme closeup on camera shot from the interior of the car. Right.

But it insinuates that Pacino sees the skull medallion from 30 feet outside the car. He's outside the car completely. And he doesn't see that thing. We do. And why would it make a difference? Why would you even clock that as a cop? It's like it's hanging from the rearview mirror. I thought he must have remembered it from... I thought maybe it was on his dad when he was hanging. Yeah.

I believe that they shot that open. He remembers that later. They shot that open. Oh, he does? It was on his dad? It was on his dad. Oh, I didn't even know that. But that again, again, this is where Pacino's bad at his job. He doesn't remember that until even later when he remembers the...

the father hanging. He first remembers the, the medallion hanging, the skull hanging from the rear view mirror. He doesn't put it together that it was also hanging on the hanging father until the next clue dump. That's the thing is,

Exposition and clues are given to them. They don't solve anything. They don't have any satisfying work done for them. The guy, the killer, walks them through it every step of the way. So they're only realizing things the killer wants them to. They're bad policemen. I will say I disagree with you because the best clue is this one. Stiff dead guy hanging in here.

I was like, he does? I didn't get that at all.

How? What does that mean? I don't even understand the paper towel to the dredging the lake.

I don't understand it. I don't know. And you think that's what he wants? He wants you to realize they're both, they're making connections that seem fantastical and they're not making connections that seem quite obvious. And then the final murder also leads to like a live Twitch stream of this murder. My favorite part of that Twitch stream, Paul, is there's so many comments of people just saying, this is fake. Yeah.

They were getting good numbers. I mean, look, it definitely inspired me to do some fun stuff like that on my Twitch channel. But now I am very interested. I mean, that was the other thing. It's like it builds to a climax that's so out of character, right? Nothing has been televised. Nothing has been orchestrated. And all of a sudden, Brittany Snow's on camera. He's like, I'm going to do it. Why? What? Why? Yeah.

Why now? Why here? Just because there's a phone. Why the technology? I don't know. I don't know. Listen, I swear to God, if Bosch had shown up at the first murder scene, nobody else would have been murdered. Bosch would have figured this out immediately with good police work,

solid clue gathering and, and, and tracking it down. These guys are out of their mind. Yeah. The fact that they don't try to solve it. It's like the movie is called hang man. And again, as someone who won at celebrity wheel of fortune, $160,000, like you're, you're asking us as not as an audience to play the game with you. And for those of us who are very good at playing that game, it's very hard to not be able to compete with,

I was frantically writing down the letters that I could see passing by to try to... I kept freeze-framing every time we got a new letter and it was plugged in. I kept freeze-framing to be like, okay, I guess let me see if I can figure this out. Let me see if I can get ahead of it because they must be digging in on it now. They've got three or four letters. Nope. No interest. No, the only thing that they came up with was the most insane thing, which is like, pull the records of everyone released in the last nine months. Yeah.

That would be a crazy thing to do. But they don't. Here's what's crazy. They don't even seem, not until Brittany Snow really mentions it and foregrounds it a lot, they don't seem to think it has anything to do with the two of them. Even though the movie began with their badge numbers being carved into desks.

That's just it, man. With two little dummies staring at a hangman puzzle. Yes. This feels like The Snowman. That's what it feels like. Remember when we found out that that movie, The Snowman, one of the reasons that it felt so bad and disjointed is because they didn't shoot...

20% of the script. They ran out of money and time and they were unable to shoot it all. That's what this felt like. They didn't have the shots. They had the scenes and this is maybe where the Al Pacino sleepwalking through it might come into play. They had the scenes that would set up

a lot of connections. They did it. They just didn't add those lines in. I will say, the cold open scene where he chases the van down and points his gun and says, get out of the van, it does appear that his eyes are closed the entire time. He does look... That's where he's the sleepiest. He appears to be in a full REM sleep in that moment. When he gets out of that car, he looks exhausted. He's like, I say, I say, you come out of that van. Who, uh...

And by the way, who's afraid of this man? Like, this is a short little guy who's like 80 years old. Like, I mean, God, I mean, God bless him. But it's like, and they're like, there might be a bomb in there. Why they think there's a bomb in there. Who knows? But he's like, fuck a bomb. And.

And we never find out what's crazy. Al Pacino's 83. He's 80 years old running around. We never find out what that guy, why that guy sideswiped him, why he was driving so crazy, why he was in the van, what was in the van, what he went. We never find out anything about that guy.

So why put the scene at the top of the movie? Medallion. Just so that later we can, just for the, Medallion? June, it's just for the medallion. And look, it makes no sense. And I gotta just say one thing that we haven't talked about, but you know me, I love slaughterhouses. I think it's a beautiful place where, you know, we really are creating, we're ending life. Your first date was to a slaughterhouse, right? In June. Wasn't it? You guys? Yeah, you know, and I always like to bring it because I'm like, it's the end of life, it's the beginning of life because we're creating nourishment. Here's the thing.

That slaughterhouse was treated as if like five o'clock the bell rang and they just left all the meat out on the counters. Like there is meat every like meat is not put away in the middle of the night. It's the middle of the night. Do you know how many rats there would be swarming in every place? I mean, that means and they don't turn on a light. Clearly, there's a lot of lights at the slaughterhouse.

Clearly. There's no guards. There's no security people. There's nobody letting them in. They walk in the back door of a slaughterhouse. There's meat, just meat remnants all over all the tables. All the tables. So it's like you're walking through a haunted house. That's how one of them should be like, oh, we got to call the health department to have this place shut down because this looks absolutely not up to code.

These motherfuckers, these guys are so unfazed. That woman slices her wrists and the captain's like, what did you do bringing a Coke can in there? He's like, all right, look, you're screwed up. Yeah. So we just tried. Like, you should be a little bit more. She's almost dead. He's like, all right, I made a mistake. I made a mistake. Well, yeah. Once again, it's Brittany Snow who's like, detectives, detectives.

She's the only person who has any semblance of situational awareness in the world. Yes, they are so out of it. They are oblivious. Even when there are things that are right in front of their face, they do not connect them at all. And she does every step of the way. She's a genius. I was confused by her though, because I was like, they do something sometimes with women that,

especially blonde women in movies where they're like, okay, let's put a bun on her. Let's put a low bun on her. We gotta believe she's smart. Put a bun on her. And that low bun started to drive me. Put a bun on her. Get her in a bun and get her out there. Put her in a bra. Put a bun on her. A bun in a bra.

And it's driving me nuts. But there were times where the two of Pacino and Urban would be talking and they'd cut to Brittany Snow and she'd be in tears listening and emotionally connecting to them and what they were saying on a level that felt so outsized. I'm like, what's her relationship? Paul, you said this at one point, like, are we going to find out she's Pacino's child? Yeah. Why is she so connected to them? Yes.

Why are they? Yes. Why are any of them connected to each other such that they feel so like you would you would think that she and Carl Urban might start having a romance in a movie like this? Like maybe they start to care for each other. Not with that low bun. Zero. Zero. Zero.

They know that's the thing is there isn't chemistry between any performers, period. Like there isn't. I don't believe that Carl Urban and Al Pacino have known each other for so long as they they're trying to impress upon us that they are old, dear friends that they doesn't seem like it. You know, I don't get their interior relationships that would warrant the emotional investment that you're describing. It doesn't make sense because her so her backstory is that when she was

Was covering the cartel. Someone jumped her and the cop who saved her life was killed, not saved her life, not saved her life. I don't think, but the cop who tried to find the person who did that and scarred her, he did get killed in the line of duty.

So I'm like, okay. But what I had trouble with is for somebody who's a New York Times investigative journalist, I'm like, you – she keeps on saying this isn't about me. And I'm like, honey, you are making this about you. You have revealed that you are not impartial, that you are very much so looking for a story where you can kind of heal this trauma and make a cop –

memorialize a cop in some way. And it's very strange. Okay, so that's a larger question that I have. Is she on assignment in Monroe, Georgia, doing a character profile of Carl Urban, ex-FBI agent who now works for Monroe County PD for the New York Times? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Why go to Monroe? What story is this?

We needed to bring something back. There's so many things that are left hanging in this and not just the tulips that he pulled from the garden, which, by the way,

all the men out there, if you're going to go into your own garden and get flowers to bring to your wife, like that's the worst plan of all time. Like to go into your own, like, like again, that's why I, that's why I found it very strange. And I think we might learn something in the, in the sequel, because I don't believe he cared about that wife. The only way to make this movie better would be for the sequel to be all of the same events told from the point of view of the serial killer.

so that I can make sense of the movie I just watched so that it's just giving me the information because I don't have any of it. Like, or give me a Brittany snow movie because she's the only person that I'm interested in continuing on and solving cases because she did all the work for this one. This is what we're talking about. This movie doesn't have a main character. This,

This movie has no, like literally every character is about one quarter developed and we still have one quarter that is not full by anybody. Well, that's yes. All three of them together are one character, right? She, she has emotions, right?

Carl Urban is turned off. And this is why I feel like this is the movie where it's like a checklist. Like, okay, we need one star that has foreign appeal. Well, Brittany Snow, she's in Pitch Perfect. We need one legend. Okay, Al Pacino, we got it. We need one person who's a good up and comer. Okay, Carl Urban, right around that. Like, it's like, put them together. We need to be cop.

and they all have to be good guys. It feels like they were all thrust. And we need a hook. What about Hangman, the game Hangman? Done. What? Everyone's talking about Barbie right now. No one's talking about Hangman. This is the first kind of kids toy movie transition. The Hangmaniverse? Yeah.

You know, like, but that's the thing is like that the hangman doesn't make sense. The reporter angle doesn't make sense. The police procedural doesn't make sense. It's a failure at every single level because the minute you start to pull any of it apart, it falls apart completely. And another trouble, and I know you brought this up already, Paul, but it is really troubling to me that Al Pacino forces Carl Urban to look at those photos of his wife because there's, I could see another scene

I could see a scene in which he's just like, Hey, so I just want to let you know that we actually realized that, uh,

Your wife, Jessica, had a V carved into her. What we saw was actually a V. And he can say, let me see it. Let me see it. And he could ask for it. No, and he could be like, don't. Don't. There's no need. We saw it. But meanwhile, he keeps it in the top part of his desk as if he's looking at a picture of his kids. Like, I mean, he's looking at that a lot. Wouldn't you, if you're Carl Urban, be looking for any way possible to connect the cold case of your wife's murder to any current case?

ongoing investigation. Wouldn't that give you hope? He literally seems to not want to. He seems to not want to investigate. Well, maybe he doesn't want to close the case because he wants to keep his wife alive. Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

I don't. I wish I understood this fucking movie. Wow. Because I really I like you. I love Carl Urban. I think he's so good. Dread. The dread movie that he's in is fantastic. The boys. He's just exceptional in. I love him. Oh, I love him so much. Can we just talk about one moment, though, too, that no one reacts to? Carl Urban loses his shit and is about to run over the killer.

right who speeds away on a dirt bike and everyone's like stop stop stop and they get hit by a mac truck and no one's like hey man you've lost it it's like shit just went on the next same thing next day yeah like no one reacts like they like they literally say to britney murphy you need to take a break yeah you need to sit out also be hospitalized for a week after that accident at least pitch

Pacino, if they were hit by a Mack truck in that car, the way they were hit, Pacino would turn to dust. You're so right. He would explode. We've already seen that when Pacino's like basically like

tapped by that hanging pig man he falls on the ground and can't get up his back like they should after they after they're pulling Brittany Murph not Brittany Brittany Snow you got me got it in my head after they're pulling Brittany Snow out of the car they should look over and out where Al Pacino was sitting should be a small pile of dust

And like and a hairpiece like because it makes no sense that he walks out like, oh, hey, that was a crazy one. Who? Y'all want to get some po boys? Oh, it's just 33 minutes to Atlanta. I got a crawdad in my pickup truck.

Hoo-ah, gators! I'm just, like, and I do think that this is a movie that you fall asleep to and you think is better than it is. Like, if you catch it midway through, you think it's better than it is because you clearly, like, oh, I missed something that sets up and all this makes sense. Yeah, you're totally right. But when you sit and watch it, when you watch the whole thing, you see all the holes. But that's, like, I always called... I would love to watch if there are deleted scenes from this movie. I would love to see what they chose to take out.

Oh, fascinating. If anything, I also believe they had to put everything they shot in the movie. They're like, listen, we got to put it in. This is a blooper, but we're putting it in. I was obsessed with the fact that Brittany Snow, in the beginning of the movie, when they realize when they're at that school and see two dummies, two dummies,

Two little doll dummies staring up at the hangman board. And clearly, like, we come to realize, like, oh, this is the serial killer telling Urban and Pacino that they're dummies and they're dummies for trying to play this game. But when she says, I'm good with numbers because she's remembered his...

First of all, just remembering a number doesn't mean you're good with numbers necessarily. You're also a reporter. You're a reporter. You should know this stuff. Yes. But also what I was counting on is, oh, you're good with puzzles and games and we're going to be... Right, like you'd be good on Survivor. The puzzle portion of Survivor? Yeah, the puzzle portion of Survivor. Okay, yeah, they do compete with... I will back...

up what you're saying, June, and say, okay, let's say Brittany Snow is good with numbers and has a good memory, right? Because she's a reporter or whatever. And then Pacino is not only good with puzzles, he does the crossword puzzle every day, he's good

with crossword puzzles in Latin. Right. Which, again, the clue is Latin. And it is a crossword puzzle-esque style. But Pacino, his character, not interested in solving the puzzle path. They never look at those letters. Not interested in solving the puzzle. They never say like, oh, okay, do we have all the vowels yet? They're never looking at that word. They're never, you know, they tell one of their assistants in the police station to like narrow the filter, narrow the search to

who's just been released, it's also like, well, narrow the search with those letters. Just have one person working on it and sitting on that medical examiner all the time who, yeah, they've been hung. Like, what else do you need to know? Like, at this point, we don't need to keep on going back. Bringing the code breakers, yeah.

Why was he frozen? Why was he frozen? Who cares? At this point, the ins and outs of the murders are not important because we're chasing someone who has an M.O. to 11 p.m. OK, and try to solve this freaking puzzle. By then, they call it took decades to crack the Zodiac killer's cipher.

People worked hard to try and crack the cipher that the Zodiac Killer wrote. You don't have to tell June twice. They're not interested in solving the hangman puzzle. Her husband solved the whole fucking thing. Yeah, I know all about it. Again, it's a small town. Most of the cops are watching. It took them 60 takes to decipher the Zodiac Killer's cipher.

Oh my God. I will say that this is...

I think almost if you watch the first 45 minutes, you'll leave happier because the first 45 minutes, it's fun. It's crazy. But when you are forced to look at the end and you yourself feel like you want to go murder someone and make a hangman puzzle, because my big question is also this. It ends on this bullshit cliffhanger of like, there's another hangman, which I'm going to go to your theory, June, that there are twins. But who was the first letter killed?

Carl Irvin's wife? What do you mean? No, the second puzzle. Is there a letter filled in? One letter filled in. Oh, so we just haven't found the victim yet?

Well, I guess there's been somebody killed already. Yeah. The only way this movie could redeem itself would be if in the second movie it's revealed that Brittany Snow is the murderer. Or one of our... Or Carl Urban. Or, I guess, Pacino. But there's no way. Just because if nobody that we're inside... If nobody on the inside of this movie is part of the crime, it's deeply unsatisfying. It's so terrible. And it's also like...

This whole idea also that the murderer needs to strike by 11 p.m. I'm like, why? To celebrate his dad's death. Yeah, that's when his dad died. And that's when he evicted him, I guess, at 11 p.m.? That's when the eviction man came. That's a stretch, you guys. Eviction man. May I ask one other question, which I guess this may unravel everything. Why was it in Latin? I don't know.

Great, great question. Why was it in Latin? It makes no sense.

And why do you, okay, so now let's reverse engineer it. So they clearly thought, oh, let's make it in Latin so it's harder to solve the puzzle as we're going. But meanwhile. So it'll be in Latin. But. But what if we, but how are we going to solve it? Okay, we're going to have to have a scene where it's established that Pacino speaks, can solve puzzles in Latin. So he's very familiar with Latin. So we'll just put it in earlier. But okay, but here's the thing too.

It's in Latin. Let me tell you how it's spelt. E-V-I-C-T-I-O-N. E-M. The word is there. It's not like one of those Latin words of like, oh, that means to evict. It's there. Evictionem. It's there. It's not like, I figured it out. Even the Latin word, you know, maybe the Latin word for abandon. If you flip the last two letters, it's evict me. Oh.

Here's my question, though, which is when that hangman's written on the wall with the eyes already in, so the word's complete, right? So did the killer do that on his fall down? How did those eyes get up there when... Well, I think he knew it was...

he was going to be successful in killing Brittany Snow. So he doesn't, he figures out the puzzle before, like he doesn't kill and then do the puzzle. Cause he did that at the train station too. He may come around three o'clock in the afternoon, do the puzzle part, then go back to the train yard and then hang up the guy. Like he's got to like, you know, it's a, it's a complicated scavenger hunt. And I mean, he's doing so much work, but like, I never even, we're never even along for the ride with him.

You know, like in Silence of the Lambs, when you see Buffalo Bill talking the girl into helping load the sofa into the van, blah, blah, blah. You're with Buffalo Bill while he's out and doing his scary ass stuff. You're like, OK, I understand the world of the bad guy in a way that I don't understand the world of this bad guy, even when it's when it's revealed to me by the end. I don't. And his reasoning. Forgive me, bad Mr. Bad Guy, Mr. Hangman.

but his reasoning is nonsense. He thinks Al Pacino's responsible for his father's hanging? It's so unsatisfying. Well, the dad was upset. No, it's not that because the landlord went to court to evict the tenant. Then the eviction notice was probably put on the door

And then the father's like, well, I'm going to kill myself. And then knock, knock, knock. And then Al Pacino's arrives. It's like, there's multiple steps. It wasn't like Al Pacino's like, hey, I got to evict you. And the dad was like, one second. I got to take a quick shower and then kill himself. Like, it seemed like the kid was maybe home alone with this man hanging as Al Pacino's working the night shift. That's so terrible. Doing nighttime evictions. That's really upsetting. Why are we doing nighttime evictions? I thought we were going to find out that

The young boy had actually hung his father. Great. By the way, give me that. Give me anything that helps set up for me. What the fuck is going on? Yeah. Like, almost like at the end of the movie, at the end of Burn After Reading, there's that great scene with J.K. Simmons and David Rasche where...

they're trying to explain the events of the movie. And, and they're just like, I honestly, I don't know. It makes no sense. This happened. And then this happened. He's like, really? That's crazy. Yeah, no, I know. It doesn't make any sense. Like they break it down on a level that is like the events of this movie were preposterous. So I don't know what to tell you. Like the movie should have had one of those because none of it added up and they should have just been like, this was a weird one, right? Yep. This one was a, you know, look, it's like, or,

or have the hangman just go, I had a plan, but I had to work fast because when you came out of retirement, I just had to kill people willy-nilly. Like, just make somebody say something that makes... When she started following you around, I knew that she was the smartest one, so I had to make my tracks even harder to cover. And basically, the whole thing comes down to Pacino having to apologize to the serial killer and be like, I failed you?

Because when I was like a beat cop, I didn't like adopt you. I don't understand. Because I followed the letter of the law. This serial killer, I'll be honest with you, is like his emotional, like he's attached too much emotional weight onto Pacino. It's inappropriate. It's absolutely inappropriate.

He's saying to Pacino, all of my personal trauma is because of you? Pacino didn't even work in that place where he was abused that we think he was abused. I don't even know. He's like, let me take your place. He wants to take the place. Why? Why does he have the guilt? Again, make him the dad. Make him like he was having a relationship with that kid's

and the event. Anything. Make it personal is what this movie is lacking because there's a lot of personal stuff. Carl Urban's wife is killed. There are relationships, but they're all circumstantial. The direct...

the criminal, the serial killer and Pacino, there is nothing really personal between them. No, this movie has a lot of people meeting each other for the first time. Yes. For the very first time. Yeah. And that's what I can't, that's what's so tremendously unsatisfying about it and why I would not recommend people watch it.

Oh my gosh. This is, I mean, this is a lot. It's a lot that we went through here. I feel like we had an emotional reaction to it. I was coming in, enjoying it. Now I'm really frustrated. It makes me want to just kill somebody and send them running around town to solve a gang man puzzle. Stop that, Paul. I,

I actually did. June and I would be on the case. I really did enjoy watching this movie actually. And it is so deeply unsatisfying and there's no there there. And it's again, not, not anything that I saw or anything that happened, but I did still have some really good laughs. So, um, Oh yeah, I just did, you know, and as far as our movies go, um,

I thought this went down pretty easy. Oh, yeah. It's an hour and a half. It's fine. Nice time. And especially if you're not expecting... I think because of the people involved and the type of movie it was, I thought it was going to be a little bit better. Sure. Like, in terms of story. Like, if this had had even a more slightly cohesive storyline, it would have been a blast, I think. But it wasn't enough just because I was doing so much work on the movie's behalf...

that I was like, why am I working so hard if the movie's not going to work this hard? I went away feeling stupid about myself, like maybe I missed something, but clearly we might have all missed something because there are people out there that love this movie. It is now time for Second Opinions. The movie was a piece of shit Yet this person recommends it Tell me what is the message Maybe that art is subjective

I need a second opinion. All right. Here are some reviews from Amazon. The average rating of this movie is four out of five stars. 57% are five-star reviews. MD Windhorst writes, looking at some of the reviews by, quote, expert reviewers, I just call mine just an opinion.

It's a cop movie, people. You are probably the same critics that think you know everything about the hops and your freaking local craft beer. Whoa. If you enjoy watching a legend school younger actors that hope to one day achieve half of what Pacino has and help them hone their craft, then you should watch it.

Was anyone great in this film? Was the plot weak? It's a freaking cop movie, people. Pacino should have stopped and could have stopped long ago, but he loves his craft. Can he call it in and still be better than most of today's herd? Yes. For a cop quote movie, it was extraordinarily well acted. Was it interesting enough? Yes.

Was it worth an hour and a half of my time? Yes. Did it shove down my throat some social warrior message? No. There aren't many movies left that are purely entertainment and escape. And this did the trick for me. That's just my opinion. Five stars. Oh, God. Wow. And then...

This one was, I like this one. The title was Al Pacino is great. Paul Urban is a good actor as well. Five stars. Paul Urban.

Oh, wow. That's amazing. And then I mean, I don't even think you can level the claim that this is copaganda simply because they're so bad at police. I mean, my gosh, by the way, I would say the anyway, Deborah Gale writes this. I don't understand the three star average. I do probably watch too many serial killer documentaries, series and movies, and I have no idea why I'm so interested in it, but I am.

This is now one of my top 10 on my list for the best movies about serial killers. It was exciting. It got my pulse racing and I was nearly white knuckling it. The body count was high and the pace was fast and all the actors did a great job, even though most of the movie was filmed at a night setting. And I never once thought about it because you could clearly see what was happening at all times. If this is the kind of subject matter that interests you, you will be really glad to spend an hour and 33 minutes to watch this film. It's like the movie seven, obviously,

I'll also be watching that movie again, too. Five stars. I mean, this is not anything like seven. This movie wishes it was seven. This is seven through, like... I feel like the pig head scene was what made me feel like, oh, these guys think they're doing seven. Oh, my gosh. Boy, oh, boy. So, I mean, I know we've talked about what we recommended. I think we're kind of mixed on it. We kind of, I mean, there's enough in here that's kind of fun. Yeah, I think watch it.

I think watch it. Yeah. Watch it fine. But, you know, don't. It's. Boy. Boy, what a mess. I will say there's one connection to How Did This Get Made Past, which is the director of this movie, Johnny Martin, was the stunt coordinator for Old Dogs. Okay. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And just drawing connections. That's all. I love it.

And at the beginning of the episode, I said, I got caught up in saying, this is Al Pacino's lowest rated vehicle under 40%. I thought I misread something, but during the podcast, I did do the research. No, no, this is Al Pacino's lowest rated starring vehicle with 4%. Oh, wow.

When I saw the four, I was like, oh, a zero wasn't added. 40% is what I assumed. But no, it is now verified. Four. Four percent. Four percent. So this is a low one. It's rare to see the Rotten Tomatoes scores in the singletage. The guy who is revealed to be the serial killer at the end is simply not...

smart enough or capable of pulling off all of the kills in the movie. No way, no how. He's simply not, he's, I don't believe for an instant that this moron has been three steps ahead of these two police officers and this New York Times investigative journalist. Well, I think we're going to find in the sequel that he has not been.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess you're right because it was so dumb. He was so... Yeah, go ahead. I think we should be giving up hope that there's going to be a sequel on this one. What? How do we get... Can we help this? I mean, because of the strike? You think because of the strike? You think they were in the middle of writing it and it was pencils down? I mean, maybe they were trying to really... You know what? They were trying to find the right Latin word and it's taking them too long and they've just given up.

What would be the best Latin word with a V? We've already backed ourselves into the V. What if it was just eviction again?

All right. Before we end today's show, I just want to give a shout out to Francis Rizzo, who has sent so many amazing themes to us over the years. And Francis is unfortunately an end stage kidney failure, and he is doing everything he can to try to find a match for a kidney transplant. So the more potential donors he can reach, the more he can help.

the greater chance he has. And if there are any potential donors out there right now, you can go to kidneyregistry.org or call 516-562-0550 or email transplantsurgery at

northwell.edu and mention the name Francis Rizzo. Yeah. Best of luck, Francis. Yes. Good luck, Francis. And thank you for all your songs. All right. So that brings us to the end of our episode. Make sure you always head on over to TeePublic. I'm sure that we will have some sort of Eviction Man merch. I feel like we're going to need a shirt.

And a shout out to our producer, April Halle, for finding these movies. This is a true gem. And our producers in house, Scott Sonney and Molly Reynolds. Of course, all of our amazing art is designed by the fantastic Kyle Waldron. And today's episode was engineered by Rich Garcia. And make sure you listen to next week where you can chime in about all the things that we might have missed or maybe missed.

theories that you might have about this movie, you can give us a call at 619-Paul-Ask and we will talk all about whatever you want to talk about. You can leave questions for me and Jason and we can also get into more theories of The Hangman! Alright, see you next time everybody. Bye for now. ... ...