S1 Ep7: No One Tells Josh Gondelman the Good Gossip
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Since the part of the story where you said she got a dog that could run with her, I have been thinking the phrase, "You've got a fast dog!" in kind of a Tracy Chapman voice and cadence.

Hello, my little gossip mongers. Welcome to Normal Gossip, the podcast where we bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Before we get into the absolute mess that is this week's episode, I just want to give all of you a heads up that next week's episode will be the season finale. Alex and I, the producer, need a break or we are going to burn up into terrible balls of fire and not be able to continue to make this podcast.

So we're going to take a little time off, but we'll be back in May with a brand new season full of great gossip for you. And in the meantime, I promise you we're going to bring you a few listener shows so you won't die of withdrawal. For this season's break, we're looking for stories about family gossip. Any story about your mom, your dad, your sister, your terrible aunt, we'll take it, hand it over. Call them into the hotline at 2679-GOSSIP.

Make sure to specify that this is for the listener episode and make sure it's your own gossip to share so that we can play it. You can give us your name if you want or stay anonymous. We don't care. But please remember that the voicemail box will cut you off after three minutes. If you need to talk longer, you can just keep calling back over and over again. Or you can send us a voice memo at normalgossipatdefector.com. Okay.

In the meantime, we are still here. And this week's episode is going to be a real treat. This week I have with me Josh Gondelman. He's an author, comedy writer, producer, stand-up comedian, podcaster. He has five million jobs.

He is currently a supervising producer and writer for Desus and Mero. He's extremely good at pep talks and my personal friend. Welcome, Josh. Hey, thanks for having me, Kelsey. It's so nice to be here with you. How's it going? How are you doing? I'm doing okay. We just have started working on the new season of Desus and Mero, which is like...

We had a few weeks off and I forgot what it's like to like have to do things all day. And so I'm super, super psyched for the new season. But also I'm like, oh boy, jobs are a lot of work. I'm sleepy by this time of day.

You got to take just a little nap in the middle of the day. Well, thank you for making time to gossip with us. My gosh, thank you for having me. I love a little gossip. I want to just start with an easy question, right? Like, what is your relationship to gossip? How do you feel about it? Okay, I have a lot of feelings about gossip. Oh, hell yeah. One is I'm embarrassed by how much I enjoy it at times. Why? Because I guess...

I think there's like a, you've talked about this a lot on the show before. I'm a big fan of the show. Thank you. But you're welcome. But there's like a utility to gossip, right? There's the kind of gossip that's like for community safety and for like, like a whisper network. And I think that is all really legit. I think I tend to sometimes like gossip.

tip into the gossip that's just shit talk that's like gossip that just ends up being like this fucking guy you're kidding me um

So like that to me is embarrassing, my indulgence for that. I will also say a couple other personal experiences with gossip. I feel like between my demeanor and my reputation among friends as like a guy that doesn't get up to no good very often, I will say, I feel like I'm not privy to a lot of the good gossip. You think people are keeping things from you?

Yeah, I do. And I don't blame them. Not because I'm untrustworthy. I'm trustworthy. And not because people think I'm untrustworthy. I think people think that I don't want to know or can't handle it. Like, I'm... Do you ever... This is an experience that I've had where, like, you meet a person and you're, like, at a party with them or you've met them a bunch of times and you're just like...

This prison has a strange vibe that I can't place. And then, like, someone is like, oh, they're always on cocaine. And I'm like, I hadn't even considered that. It's just so outside. Like, it's like nobody tells me when everyone's going to the bathroom to do drugs. I'm just like, damn, they're probably all peeing at once. They must have to pee so bad. Yeah.

And so that's like kind of how I, that's my relationship to gossip is I feel like I'm out of the loop a lot of the time. I'm so glad you brought this up because for our, our friends who don't follow you on Twitter, there is a running bit that I don't remember who started it. Um, but someone started a running bit about how you love cocaine. And the whole point of the joke is that you are not the type of person people would assume love cocaine, um,

And I do not. Not that I... I'm not like... I do it occasionally. I don't love it. I'm like not a drug person, really. And definitely not a cocaine person. This is a question I have for you, though. So that is like... That kind of bit is right on the edge of like a rumor, right? Yes. What to you is the difference between gossip and rumors? I guess... Hmm. That's such a good question. I feel like...

A rumor can be gossip, but not all gossip is rumors. Does that make sense? Why? So I think a rumor is unsubstantiated. That's something. A rumor lacks substantiation, and gossip can be substantiated or not. It just has to be told kind of illicitly and clandestinely. Okay, so then why do you think people don't want to share gossip with you? Do you want them to?

Yeah, I like to know the gossip.

But people are like, you know, it's like, would you tell Grover from Sesame Street gossip? Like, no, Grover can't be burdened with this. His fragile, goofy little mind can't handle it. And that's how I think people think about me. No! Well, so, I have one more personal gossip feeling. Please. A form of gossip that I haven't heard discussed is positive gossip. Which is...

So obviously you've talked about gossip with positive results and intentions, but I also love and am often privy to when you hear someone talking kindly about someone else, like not talking trash, and you pass that on to a person. That, I think, is like a lovely gossip. That's an underrated gossip. That's so funny because I think there's this

I have an inclination, right, to if you were telling me something really nice about a friend of ours, I don't know that I would think about it as gossip. Oh, I mean, sure. True. Even though definitionally it absolutely is, right? You're telling me something I don't know about a third party who isn't there. I would be like, no, we're just saying really nice things. Right. So I think this is the difference. This is gossip, but not rumor, right? If I was talking to a friend...

And the friend said to me, like, you know, not knowing we know each other was like, I read Kelsey's book and it was so touching. And I just like really brought me a lot of joy and comfort during a hard time. I would immediately turn around and pass that on to you. And it is the it feels like the act of gossip. Right. But without any of the like rumor and insinuation. Yeah.

I like to do it. However, if someone was like, oh, Kelsey's going to be at that party, say hi for me. I will say that I'll do that and then I won't do that. So I apologize.

I'm curious kind of how, what connotations you grew up with around gossip, but also like how do people in Boston gossip? Is there anything special about the way that they do it? Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the Boston suburbs and I'm Jewish. My family is Jewish. Judaism in Boston.

Boston is like Catholicism plus bagels. So like, it's so... There's like such a New England cloisteredness to it. So it's like... I mean, historically, the Boston gossip is like...

I saw Goody Proctor in the woods. You know what I mean? It's like super pernicious. It's like the Salem Witch Trials. Like the crucible should have been called gossip. But there's like a real tightness. Like within my family, who are very loving and effusive and emotionally open, there's like a lot of philosophies

filling in the blanks for yourself. I think my parents are really sweet and lovely and have like a great sense of other people's respect and dignity. So that like, but sometimes there's stuff that you need to know that they won't tell me when we talk on the phone, they're not like, Oh, let's dish. And we talk frequently on the phone, but they're not like, Oh, did you hear about this and this and this? And so like, so here's an example. I went home to visit around Thanksgiving and my, um,

my dad said oh yeah we just talked to aunt sis um great news she didn't have to go into hospice and i was like wait there was danger that my my great aunt was gonna have to go into hospice and he was like i was he was like yeah and i was like well why didn't you tell me he's like i just found it a couple days ago and i was like yeah then you could have told me a couple days ago days ago

And that's like, that's like a real example. I don't think my parents will listen to this podcast to get upset. I don't think that the fact that my aunt was sick and is now not sick is a big deal. But right, she wasn't as sick as people thought maybe she was. But like my 95 year old, 96 year old great aunt, like that kind of thing. It's like there's stuff that I'll like walk into these situations with family and my parents will just have like not prepared me.

So that's the tradition of gossip that I grew up in, is this kind of very staid, puritanical New England, like, you know, if something is weird, it's just like, it's not your business. We don't need to talk about it. And I don't know if I like gossip.

They're not like that, but they just don't get into it in that way. You know what I mean? Right. You're like missing context clues. Missing context. It's like when people are all going to the bathroom together and you're like, they just all have to pee. It's like they're just missing a single context clue. Yeah. Yes. That no one gave to you. Right. Where I'm like, they're like gossip...

gene does not express or whatever. And I find that it's a recessive. But I have it. You know how you know the pun at squares. I have two parents with a recessive gossip gene and I got it. I got the both recessive genes and it expresses in me because I'm like, I'll talk a little trash. Wait, so how did you learn to gossip? Like if neither of your parents are huge gossips,

And you have like a natural inclination for it. How did you learn? I think...

I don't know. Because I do think one of my favorite gossips, as I mentioned before, is like a this fucking guy. And so like, I think professional jealousy cultivated a little bit. Because that's the kind of stuff where like, it's like a little trash talk, but about information that's out in the open. So you don't have to have privileged information to engage in the gossip. So I think maybe that helped. I imagine that like the gossip amongst people

comedians must be hot and persistent. Yeah, some of it is...

fun and gossipy, and then some of it is just, like, pettiness and bitterness, as I think is, and then some of it is for real. You know, some of it is, like, is real, that kind of, like, whisper network-y stuff, you know, that you've talked about on the show before, of, like, hey, this person is, like, not, you might, it might not be a safe situation with person X, Y, or Z. You know what I mean? And then there's some that's just, like, oh, this is, like, a funny fact about this person, and then some of it is just, like,

This person has their own TV show or whatever. Yeah, it's just people who are mad because it's not them. Yeah, exactly. Very like, is he funny or something? Like that Arrested Development thing. Him? Her? Her? Yeah. So it kind of hits on all levels because it's like a blend of –

and coworkers. And it's people... There are so many people in the world of comedy that even if you don't know them well, you know them for a long time. I have so many acquaintances and friends

you know, people that are friends that I just don't see for years because it's like, oh, they're on the road. I'm mostly in New York. We cross paths occasionally. We'll do like a festival together every couple of years. And it's just like a joy to see them. But it's like, you have so many of these relationships, I think, because like a workplace could be like,

a comedy club that you're at or like a like a hotel ballroom that you're performing at in in kind of the middle of nowhere between other gigs and you meet this person and you like you have one like fun time just like drinking at the hotel bar and talking trash and then you're like text friends for the next decade yeah and your job is to like

push boundaries a little bit, right? Your job is to like say something that's funny and like make something work. And so on some level you can't have like an HR team in that room because at some point somebody is going to make a joke that everyone's going to be like, that's too far. Right.

And like, that's fine. That's part of your job. Yes. But because of that, I think because of the kind of unregulated, Wild West, HR-less nature of these environments, there's some behavior that happens that gets...

That gets kind of excused as like, this is part of it. Or like, this is show business. This is not a professional situation. I thought we were just like having fun. Right. Like that kind of stuff. And like, you know, I think that it gets dicey for people. And that's like the kind of that additional level of gossip, right? Of like, oh, this guy. But I feel like because I'm not a person that is, I'm like an adult person.

I'm not the target often of like a sexual harassment. Right. You wouldn't peg me as like the person who people are like, oh, this this person just like always gets unwanted sexual attention. So I don't get it on that side. Like, like, so I'm not privy to like that kind of like always like, hey, this guy's kind of a creep. You might want to stay away because like, I'm not in danger. Right.

in that way. But I also don't get, like, as I established before, I don't get like the guy that's being like, Hey, I'm a, I just, uh, I just fingered that lady over there. You know? So it's like, yeah, I'm on, I get neither side of it. And then I find out like, like years later, like, Oh gosh, I wish somebody had let me know about Bill Cosby example for comedy. Right. Was it his name? Reputation was in the news, obviously as a monster. Yeah.

Yeah, it's hard too because it's like if you're not getting any kinds of gossip or if people think that you aren't the kind of person who wants gossip, it's like how do you make sure you're getting the information that you need to do your job well and to help people around you do their jobs well? Like that's a difficult space to be in. Yeah, and I always appreciate when someone, because it's very vulnerable to do, but I've had people occasionally reach out and be like, hey, this person that you...

worked with recently not not at a like a day job like this person that you you were on a show with like a friend and i had like a really bad experience with that person and just like you know nothing that like we need to go to the police or whatever you or whatever it is but just a like heads up just a heads up that this person has kind of an unsavory reputation among people and it's like and and i always appreciate knowing that and being able to like

To act accordingly. Yeah. Wow, we've gotten so deep. We're deep in the world of gossip. I love it.

Okay, let's do it. Gossip time. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay, so today our friend of a friend is named Jordan. And Jordan is young. You know, she just moved out to a big city on the coast right after college. Summer of 2021. And you know, she had a little bit of a personal crisis trying to choose her neighborhood because she was like, you know, I want to live somewhere that I can afford and I also don't want to like gentrify a neighborhood. And she was like, you know, I want to live somewhere that I can afford

But, you know, those two things are often in conflict. Sure. And so she chose this neighborhood where she was like, you know, okay, I can afford it. It's like at the top of my range. And like, there's some new young people here. It's kind of gentrifying, but there's also still a lot of generational families in the neighborhood who are like happy. Yeah.

But the divide she can like see in everything, right? It's like, oh, there's this like fancy restaurant where all the people my age are. And then there's this like, you know, chicken place that is $4 and delicious. And so she's like learning about this, but she does feel a little bad, like not enough to stop doing it, but she does feel kind of bad. And she decides, she's like, you know, because I'm feeling bad about this, what I'm going to do is like integrate myself in my community because that's something I can control. So

So she like joins the neighborhood Facebook group. She joins the neighborhood next door group. She starts meeting her neighbors. That's so funny too, to be like, I want to be more involved in the community. I'm going to join next door, which is just like, in my experience, like 50% people being like, someone sneezed too loud after 10 p.m. and I am calling the National Guard. Yeah.

Exactly. But she's like, you know, when you're like 22 and you haven't ever had to make friends, it's like really difficult to figure out how to do that. And so she's she's like looking around and she's like, you know, how am I supposed to meet these people? I'm going to work. I don't like any of my coworkers. How am I supposed to make friends? And she like a little light bulb goes off in her head and she's like, you know what I can do? I'm going to get a dog. A dog will help me make friends. I think this is smart. This is a good idea.

Why do you think this is a good idea? Because people will talk to a dog. My dog is, people know my dog that don't know me in my neighborhood. Like, I'll walk by a place and someone will be like, oh, hi, Busy. And I'll be like, what did you go to college together? Like, what happened?

How did you know this person? And it's like, my dog will go... My wife will walk the dog sometimes. Or when we were both working in offices more regularly, we would have a dog walker come a couple days a week. And so my dog does have a life outside of me. But also, people will strike up a conversation that know her through...

you're like this, this guy on the street is like a friend of a friend. And that middle friend is my dog. Okay, so you think this is a good idea? I think it's a good idea. Yes. Okay, so an important thing to know about Jordan is that she is a runner and not a runner, like a casual runner, like a very good runner, like all state track in high school ran at a D1 college fast. And she's like, I want to get a dog that I can take on my runs with me. What kind of dog do you think she should get?

Do you have any opinions on running dogs? I mean, like the famous one, the ones that run professionally are greyhounds. I don't know if they like to run or if people just make them run. If they're just forced. Yeah, I'm not sure either. And she's like, you know, she's kind of a distance runner. So she's like, what I'm going to do is I'm going to give a dog that's like not a puppy, but has a lot of energy. Right. I'm going to get like a one year old border collie. Right. And then I will be forced to run the dog.

So she gets this dog and she's like running it all over the place. And I just I want to say up top because the last time we had a dog in one of these stories, a bunch of people were very concerned that the dogs were going to be hurt. No dogs are going to be hurt in this story. All the dogs are happy. Okay.

Thank you. Don't worry, Josh. It's going to be okay. I was not... She seems to have her heart in the right place. She seems to want a dog that wants the same thing she does. My dog, if I was like, let's go running, first of all, I would... Absolutely not. My legs and arms would fall off, but my pug...

Would just immediately implode. She would lie down. Yeah. Okay, so she gets the dog, right? And she's like, this is going great. Like, she's running the dog all the time. She's having a really nice time. She's, like, starting to make friends slowly because her dog is really cute. And so people are like, who's that? You know, trying to, like, bond with the dog. But one day she's running in her neighborhood and she decides to take, like, a shortcut across the street. She's like, oh, I'm just going to cross here instead of at the corner. Okay.

And she doesn't look both ways. And so she gets like absolutely clobbered by a guy on a bike. Oh, no. Awful. This sucks. But what sucks more is that she has like really twisted her leg on the uneven pavement. And now she has a very, very bad high ankle sprain. Have you ever had a high ankle sprain?

I don't think so. You would know because they're very painful and also the doctor tells you it would have been better if you had broken it, which is a terrible thing to hear from a doctor. Yeah, that's bad. Also, doctor, don't tell me what would have been better. I know. Leave me alone. It would have been better if I didn't sprain it at all. Relax, doctor. It would have been better if I looked both ways before I crossed the street, but here we are. Exactly. It would have been better if you were a dentist. Okay.

So she's like, this is terrible. And she's really frustrated. And she, you know, she's like, what do I do? Like, this does seem kind of like a blind corner, right? Like, she's like, I'm not dumb. Like, this is not a safe place for me to cross the street. But a lot of people cross here and I cross here often. And so she like posts on her little next door app about her crash. And she's like, hey, I just want to like give everyone a heads up that like there's a blind corner here and you might want to like look carefully because I like just sprained my ankle.

And everyone's like, oh, so sorry, you know, on the Nextdoor app. But amazingly, the, like, council member for her neighborhood sees this post and is like, great news. This is already a problem we know about. And there is already a plan to put a crosswalk in place. Hey, that's exciting. Yeah.

We love it. So she's like, this is great. Cool. My like dangerous problem is now solved. But now I have a new problem, which is that I have a one year old border collie that I can't run anymore. Right. So this dog is like, you know, he's eating the rug. He's eating the coffee table. Right. Because he has so much energy. So much energy.

Yeah. She's got to get some sheep or something for the apartment. Exactly. She's like, can I just like get something for him to herd? Right. Like, can I borrow toddlers or something? But she can't. You can't just borrow toddlers. No, they don't. There's nobody that'll just give you a kid. They don't loan them out. Even if you promise to bring it back. Yeah.

So she's like, okay, my next thought is dog park, right? But her neighborhood doesn't have one. And also she's still injured, like on crutches. So she's like, I can't take my dog to the dog park because it's far. She sees a neighbor with a dog and she's like, let's call this woman Katie. Doesn't really matter who this woman is. And she's like, Katie, hello, you have a dog.

What do you do with it? Can you help me? Right? Which, good. Good move. Talk to your neighbors. That's helpful. Very good. This woman, Katie, is like, can I? I've lived in this apartment for 10 years, and I know a little secret that you don't know, which is that right behind this apartment, like right around the corner, pretty close to where that crosswalk is where you got hit by a bike, is a, like, piece of city property. Right.

So there's like a big grass area with like an electric box, right? It's like one of those like utility areas. Sure. It has three fences. She's like, and this is an illegal dog park.

right? So like every day after work, people bring our dogs over here every day and let them run around. This is so sweet. Most of the time when there's like an illegal dog gathering, the people make the dogs fight each other. And that's not nice at all. This is so nice. It's just like, hey, you know where we go to bring our dogs to frolic? Exactly. And so Katie's like, you should absolutely come on Fridays, like a bunch of people hang out and like,

drink beer like come on over and she's like great you know i'm on crutches but it's right here so i can like take my little dog around the block and then my dog can run right would you like to go to the dog park do you think this is a good idea

This sounds awesome. I would be worried that my dog is not, she doesn't have a real sense of place. I'm worried that she would just like toddle off in search of like, you know, loose meats or whatever. But like a dog with a better sense of, you know, the neighborhood. I think that if other people are doing it too, it sounds very fun. I will also say,

And since the part of the story where you said she got a dog that could run with her, I have been thinking the phrase, you've got a fast dog, in kind of a Tracy Chapman voice and cadence. So I just need to get that out of my brain and into the air so that it didn't infect my skull. Well, yeah, I'm so glad that you've infected me and now all of the listeners with this, and we'll live with it for the rest of our lives. And that, you know, that's beautiful. Yeah.

So you're right. It seems fine. And she's like, I'm going to go. I'm going to get my dog some exercise. This is good. So she goes, you know, she's like...

making friends everyone at the dog park is like oh katie told us that you were the one hit by the bike like great news we've heard the crosswalk is going in in two weeks like we're so sorry don't worry like everything's fine our plan is to like clean up all these tables and shit when they're putting in the crosswalk so that nobody knows that this is an illegal dog park and she's like incredible i love it it's like a like a bark easy exactly like a speakeasy for having dogs

Exactly. And so she's like, this is great. It's free, right? And I get to bring my own beer. So it's like the cheapest Bark Easy of all time. And so Katie, her neighbor, is telling everyone, you know, she's like, Jordan is my neighbor. She lives like on this floor. And all these other people who don't live in the building, right? They're just like dog park people who are coming from other buildings are like, oh my God. Do you have any stories about Mary Elizabeth? No.

Katie has told us so much about her. And Katie is, like, smirking behind her beer, right? And Jordan is like, who? Who's Mary Elizabeth? I don't like the sound of this. So immediately I'm like, ghost. Which I don't think is true. Like, she's like, hasn't been a Mary Elizabeth on this floor in 30 years. It's like immediately.

immediately where I went. But it feels sinister. Like, it feels like, are they talking about Jordan and they gave her a fake name? That's like, that would be my fear. Of like, are you talking about me but you gave, you made up a fake name for me so that you can make fun of me to me? You could just not invite me to this dog park. Yeah, this is, it's like, clearly,

like clearly not positive gossip right when you're like oh do you have any stories about this other person sure and jordan's like no you know like i've met a lot of people in the building but i haven't met a mary elizabeth like i have no idea who you're talking about and everyone is like shocked they're like wait you don't even know who she is and jordan is like no i have no idea who this person is and katie's like no you know who she is she's like

A white lady in her late 30s. She has a ponytail as thick as her forearm. She like moved in right after college in 2005 and never left. And Jordan like shakes her head. She's like, no, I have no idea who this is. And Katie's like, she's the one that's always setting up her phone in the hallway to take selfies. And Jordan's like, yes, I know exactly who you're talking about. Right. Some lady in their building who's like always taking selfies. Sure. And she's like, oh, that lady. Yeah, I totally know her.

And Katie's like, oh, my God, she's like become so annoying lately because she's training for a local marathon, like the city's marathon. Yeah. And she's on this whole tirade about how the sidewalks are bad. And Jordan is like, well, you know, the sidewalks are bad. Like, look at my experience. This person sounds like a natural ally and friend to Jordan. Yeah.

Yeah, and that's what she's thinking. She's like, okay, a runner who lives in my building, who, like, also thinks the sidewalks are bad and wants to complain about that. Like, this is a natural friend for me, and I am in search of friends. And they're all like, okay, yeah, we understand why you think that, but this lady is, like, really something else. Like, she makes everything her business, just a comment on everything. Like, aren't you so annoyed by her? Yeah.

And Jordan's like, what are you guys talking about? What do you mean? And they're like, wait, are you not on the listserv? Whoa. And she's like, what do you mean the listserv? What she didn't know is that this neighborhood has had the same residents for so long that the real drama is not happening in the Nextdoor app. The real drama is not happening on Facebook. It is happening in an email listserv from the 90s.

Oh, wow. This is the newest anything can be and still be old school. Exactly. And so she's like, invite me, invite me like right now. Yes. Unlike a lot of the like people that we have learned about in this podcast, Jordan is nosy as hell. So she's like, I need to be invited. I need to go home and like only spend time at the listserv. And they're like, great.

Yeah. It's also like someone who's bad on email, you can be like a totally nice person. And then I feel like email is like seeing someone's brain naked where you're just like, oh, that's what you're really like. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Right. And so Jordan's like, you know, I've had all of these lovely interactions, like, normal, not lovely, just like fine interactions with this woman in the building. She seems fine. But if everyone says she's like sending crazy emails, like I 100% want to read those. Yeah. So she goes home. She like...

Gets her invite. She gets approved. She's, like, in the listserv, right? And now she is, like, suddenly immersed in neighborhood drama. Like, she is digging through the archives. She, like, learns about, like, decades-old battles against potholes. She learns about, like, the drama to put the bike lanes in. She learns that, like, what she considers her crosswalk was, like, a very long battle that people were fighting for for years. Yeah.

And she's like, oh, Jesus. And half of the old timers, including this Mary Elizabeth person, didn't want a new crosswalk. Like she learns through the emails that Mary Elizabeth was like and all of her like old timey pals were like, we don't want a crosswalk there. Because if they put the crosswalk in, that takes up three parking spaces that we could be putting cars in.

neighborhood parking drama is so intense this is a very a very boston thing is um like shoveling out a parking spot and then putting like a a chair or something in it like forever like if you shovel it out and then they'll if anyone takes the chair and parks there you like fight them it's like truly it's like the one thing like when it snows it's just like

The laws of government go out the window and it's snow law now. It's one-on-one danger. And it's parking-centric. People, like, lose it with snow parking. Right. And so she's like, okay, I understand where they're coming from, but, like, this was kind of rude of them to only care about their own parking spots. Sure. And I, someone without a car, hate this. Yes. Yes.

What she really learns from reading all of these archives is that Mary Elizabeth isn't always wrong, but she is extremely loud. Like, she's just loud in every conversation that's happening. Sure. Because she's looking at emails, she now has Mary Elizabeth's last name and also a few other informations about her. What would you do with this information? Sure.

See, I'm a lazy gossip. I would just chill. However, I do think there's this exciting feeling of when you meet an unreasonable person and you're just like, but what could they be doing all day like this? So you Google them. You Google her. Exactly. Exactly.

So she Googles her and Jordan goes one step further. She's like, I have a burner Instagram account. I'm going to like watch this woman's Instagram. Right. I'm going to like learn about her. Sure. And because all of her like new dog park friends dislike Mary Elizabeth, she's like, I need to catch up. Right. Like I need to be like in on the jokes that they're doing. So she's like paying attention. Right. And like,

Some time goes by, the crosswalk goes in, Jordan's ankle is, like, starting to heal, she can, like, walk on it again. And all of this time, she's, like, watching Mary Elizabeth's Instagram and, like, being neighborly, and, like, every time there's a fight in the listserv, Jordan is, like, paying close attention to what Mary Elizabeth is saying, right? Because this is now a villain of her friend group, despite the fact that she's never met her. Do we think she's starting to...

Or is it just like she's it's like that cilantro thing where she's like, it's fine to me. And everyone else is like, are you kidding? No. So she's starting to see it. Right. Like she's watching her and she's like, there's like some weird things happening here. Got it. And one of the things that she's really noticing is that Mary Elizabeth is like constantly posting Instagram selfies of her like raw.

running and of her shoes and of her like times and because Jordan is a runner she's like extremely critical of this right because we're all critical of people in our like own hobbies the narcissism of small differences or whatever exactly is that what it's called

There's something of small differences. I don't know, but that doesn't seem right. It's like when people are a lot like you, you're like, fuck that guy. Yeah, exactly. And so she's, and also like compiling on this is the fact that she's like, I'm not allowed to run and I'm desperate to run. It's my favorite hobby. My dog is like a psycho and I'm like not at the end of my like six week, no running time period. And so I'm like watching this woman's Instagrams just like seething with envy and

When she really starts to pay attention to Mary Elizabeth is when Mary Elizabeth buys a bunch of like gear for a marathon, right? Like a shirt and a hat for the Boston Marathon and says that she's going to qualify for the Boston Marathon. Josh, you're from Boston. What do you know about the Boston Marathon? Yeah.

incredibly difficult to qualify for incredibly selective very hard to find loopholes I think occasionally you can like raise a lot of money for a charity but it's like really tough and I think doesn't accept a ton of different other races as qualifiers like I think it's pretty selective in terms of that but that that I could be incorrect about

So this is what I learned, because I don't know anything about the Boston Marathon, is that it's one of the only marathons you have to qualify for. You can't just be like, I, Josh Gondelman, am now training for a marathon. I'm going to sign up for the New York City half. Right? Which anyone can do. No, no, no. You have to. Right. It's like incredibly rigorous and selective. Yes. I did not know this. Apparently it is like a whole culture of Boston Marathon runners. Yeah.

Jordan, because she's a runner, is like, huh, I don't see this woman like leaving to run a lot. So what I'm going to do, because I'm nosy and rude, is check some app called Strava. Do you know about this app? No. It is like an app that exists that tracks running, right? So you can like track your own runs in the app. But it's also a social app. So you can see other people's runs. Sure. In the app.

So she's like, haha, this is what I'll do. I'll go into Strava. I'll learn how fast she is. Because in her head, she's like, there's no way she's faster than me. Right? Like, that's her little, like, demonic sense. And she goes up there and she learns that Mary Elizabeth is running a 12-minute mile. To me, someone who is slow, 12-minute miles seems very fast. I'm like, what's it like to be at the peak of fitness? Yeah.

I can't even drive a 12 minute mile. What is to a traffic? The Boston Marathon is hard to qualify for. And for the age bracket that Mary Elizabeth is in, she would have to run the whole marathon in

In under like three and a half hours. Okay. Which is, I can't do math either, so I already did this math for us. It's a little bit over an eight minute mile. Sure. So that's a big difference, right? 12 to eight is a huge difference. That's like 33% faster. Wow. Which is like, you can't just- Wow, brains on this guy. And over the course of a marathon, this isn't like-

Oh yeah, I ran eight feet and then I did a little – this is like you have to do that all morning. Right. Right. It's not like you're like, oh, I just sprinted and now I'm out of breath. It's like you have to sustain an eight-mile pace. Yeah, right. An eight-minute pace over 26.2 miles. And you have to bring it down from 12. Yeah, I would die. I would be dead. Not close.

So, but Jordan, because she's a runner and like a very good runner, is like, this woman is ridiculous. There is no way in hell she's like gonna make the Boston Marathon. But now I am like very committed to...

to finding out what's happening here. So she, like, drags a couple of her friends in on this, and they're, like, all paying attention, right? And she's like, Mary Elizabeth's mile times are getting faster, but, like, there's no way she's going to be fast enough for the, like, marathon she's going to run in the city to qualify. Right. The week of the marathon that Mary Elizabeth is supposed to run, Jordan is cleared by her doctor to start running again, short distances. Right.

And it, like, it isn't painless, and she's lost a lot of time, and so she's, like, feeling kind of sad. She's lost a lot of time, and she's feeling really discouraged and sad, but she's like, you know what? At least, even with all the time I've lost, I'm faster than Mary Elizabeth. Ah, that's so petty. She's the pettiest girl in the world. She's just like me. I love it. And she's like, wow, I cannot wait to see how Mary Elizabeth does in this marathon, right? So she is now, like, I mean...

tuned in to the like Mary Elizabeth marathon show. The date comes for the local marathon. Mary Elizabeth like is just going on her own, right? Like nobody's going from the building to like watch her. And Jordan is like watching her stories from her burner account. And she's like, Mary Elizabeth has posted a bunch of photos of like her prepping for the marathon, but no photos of her like at the marathon. Yeah.

And she's posted a photo of her Apple Watch that says 6.19 a.m. And Jordan, in her head, is like, this race starts at 7. You have to be at the start early. To post a photo of your watch at 6.19 still in your apartment, that seems extremely weird to me. Yeah. Yeah.

So her little ears are like perked up. Sure. And she's like, hmm, this is weird. She's paying attention. Then two days after the race, Mary Elizabeth posts another photo. And she's like, I'm so thrilled. You know, I had a great marathon, whatever. What's really exciting is that I had my first negative split.

Do you know what a negative split is? I don't. Did she get faster as it went on? Is that what it is? Exactly. Exactly. So the idea of a negative split is that you run, if you're a runner and this is wrong, I'm so sorry, but you run the second half of your marathon faster than you run your first. So to me, it makes sense that you could maybe do this if the first part of your marathon was uphill. Yeah.

Sure. Otherwise, I'm like, right. I'm like, otherwise, this seems crazy to me. And so Jordan is like, this doesn't make any fucking sense to me. Like, I don't buy it.

I love all this because it's the perfect marriage of sleuth and subject, right? Like if Jordan were not such a committed and knowledgeable runner, she would not even have the tools to think that like this person, Mary Elizabeth, is possibly a charlatan. But because this is like exactly her world, she's like rear windowing her through Instagram. And it's like...

Oh, gosh. What a stroke of good luck that the person, the nemesis dropped into her lap happens to exactly fit her needs for a nemesis. I know. It's beautiful. And so she's like, here's what I'll do. I'll check your Strava. She goes to the Strava. No data. None. She's like, that's weird. I guess I'll wait the like, whatever time it takes for the marathon results to be posted. She's like, but I know that they post the marathon results.

And so she goes and she like searches Mary Elizabeth's name and there's nothing. Wow. You know, we do ads for Rocket Money pretty consistently every month. You would think by now I would have canceled every subscription that I don't use. But guess what? I haven't. Rocket Money reminded me recently that I was subscribed to something I didn't even know I was subscribed to. But it's because it was like an annual subscription. I unsubscribed. And by I, I mean Rocket Money unsubscribed for me. Alex, is this relatable to you?

It is so relatable to me. I would like never check my bank account unless I really, really have to because it gives me so much anxiety. And is there a reason that you check your bank account now? Yeah, I get these awesome emails from Rocket Money that are like, hey, FYI, this is how much you spent last week. And it feels like a gentle person holding my hand as I go to my bank account. Oh, yeah.

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Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash gossip. That's rocketmoney.com slash gossip. Rocketmoney.com slash gossip. Oh my God, Alex, remember the week that you moved to a completely different state and then also at the same time we had a company retreat that was in New York City? Yeah.

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That's code NORMALGOSSIP50 at factormeals.com slash NORMALGOSSIP50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month while your subscription is active. So Jordan looks through the marathon results and she doesn't find Mary Elizabeth's name. So Jordan is like...

She didn't run it. No way. Like stolen valor. Right. She's like losing her mind. She's like, there's nothing on Strava, nothing on the race site. Yep. She posted on Instagram. It's all a lie. This is a bombshell. How are you feeling? I'm on the edge of my seat.

Because she just has this knowledge, right? And it's like, she's going to tell everybody else. But I feel like that's not going to be enough for Jordan. Like, I feel like Jordan is going to want to try to, like, catch her red-handed. Yeah.

Yeah, so you're not wrong. She texts everyone and she's like, this is not really satisfying to me. And the next day she's on her, you know, on her way out, she's like going to go on her second like post injury run. So she's like on her way out down the stairs with her dog and she runs into Mary Elizabeth in the stairwell.

And Mary Elizabeth is like, oh, are you out for a run? And she's like, yeah, just going for a little jog. And Mary Elizabeth is like, oh my God, I'm so jealous that you're headed out for a run. I wish I could, but I'm just like so sore from the marathon. What a commitment. What a commitment to this bit. Oh. What would you like to do in this scenario? You're in the stairwell. She's dug herself in deeper. Yeah.

It's so funny. I mean, I would just like truly this and knowing just the kind of friction that this is causing, I would stop and ask her so many questions about the marathon. Just pepper her with questions. Not to like bust her because she's already been busted, but just to like see what kind of fable she spins. Yes. So Jordan is like angrier than you, right? Because she's like...

I've been resting for all this time because of my injury. I want to be running marathons like this is fucked up. And so instead of being like, I'm just curious, she's like, I'm gonna get her to admit it. I want her to admit it to me that she did. Oh, that's funny. And so Jordan is like, Oh, my God, you know, I saw all of your posts on the listserv about how you were going to run this marathon. And so I like looked up your time to be supportive, but I didn't see anything. How did you do?

And Mary Elizabeth, like, fumbles, but barely. She's like, oh, my time was four hours and four minutes. And that's like, okay, maybe, right? Like, maybe she ran a four hour, four minute marathon. Sure. And Jordan's like, well, that's so weird because it, like, isn't in the race results. So I thought maybe, like, something had happened and you didn't finish. And an important thing to know at this part in the story is that, like, when you race, apparently you're given, like, a little bib with your number on it. You've got a number on it. Yeah.

And the number bib has in it like a little chip. And so that's how like if your friend is running the New York City Marathon, you can like see where they are. It's because of that little chip that's inside the bib. That's what the vaccines do. They put a chip in your bib. They chip your bibs right up. This is what Bill Gates wants. Imagine if at this point I just did that. Just create chaos. This is kind of like the Joe Rogan of gossip podcasts right now.

the Kelsey McKinney experience yeah we're creating chaos over here um

So Mary Elizabeth has an excuse for this, of course. She's like, oh, well, you know, like, rookie mistake. I put the bib on my, like, long-sleeve shirt that I was wearing, and, like, partway through the race, I took that off because I got hot. And so I just, like, discarded that shirt on the side of the street, which I'm like, do people do this? Are you just discarding shirts on the side of the street? That seems crazy to me. I would have said I threw it to a friend. Yeah.

Right, right. And so she's like, oh, I got rid of this shirt. And so like, that's why my results aren't in the official results.

And Jordan is like, no one does this. Like, she's like, this is not, people don't do this. Especially if you're trying to qualify for the Boston Marathon. You're very serious about this. Also, like, I don't know if this is some kind of mental illness that I have, but I'm like, I want to know the details of what I'm doing before I do it. Right? Like, I want to make sure I don't mess it up somehow for myself and, like, ruin my fun.

And this is running a marathon. This isn't Dave and Buster's. And you just show up and you're like, you have the X-Men machine from when I was a kid? I shouldn't even come. Right, exactly. And it's like, theoretically, you've been training all of this time. Wouldn't you have been reading shit? So Jordan is like, I hate this. This is a lie. We're still in the stairwell. Would you like to continue this conversation? Yeah. You would. Yeah. Yeah.

Jordan is like, I can't do it. Oh, she's so it's so real to her. It is just like her body is in pain. Right. She's like, I can't.

I cannot have this conversation with this woman anymore. It's like talking to, like, Michael Scott from The Office, where you're like, this is... I can't... The discomfort, the social discomfort is more than I can bear. And it's like, you don't know this woman still, right? So, like, she's a nemesis of your friend group, but you don't want to, like, explode on her, which is, like, on the verge of doing, because it would also reveal that you've been, like, stalking her Instagram, right? Right. So she's, like...

Gotta go for my run. Goodbye. Jordan like goes for her little jog, right? She's feeling great. She's like, I'm getting better at running. This is so nice. And the next day she's like working, right? She's at her desk working. And it's like, you know, there's a bunch of like pinging happening from her Gmail, like just a bunch of like ping, ping, ping, ping, ping. And she's like, that's what is happening here. It's like 4pm. Jordan like clicks over and there are just like dozens of emails on the list serve. Just like something is like going down, right? And

And Mary Elizabeth has sent half of them. Okay. And Jordan is like, what the fuck is this? She's like, I've been in meetings. Like, I, fine. But obviously she's going to like click in, right? Like you want to know. Yeah. And here's the drama. A car is parked illegally on the street in front of the brand new crosswalk. Right? So like where the curb cut is, a car has come full circle. This is beautiful.

The crosswalk, Jordan obviously knows very well. And so she's like a little mad that someone parked there. She's like, that's kind of stupid and annoying. Yeah.

But she starts reading and immediately her blood is like boiling because there's an email from Mary Elizabeth that's like, I'm going to read now from the paraphrased version of the email that they have. Yeah, please. There are cars parked illegally all the time in this neighborhood and the city never does anything about it. It's one thing to block a driveway or to be parked in an alley, but to block a crosswalk, there's already low visibility there. I know because I run through that crosswalk every day for my marathon training and I am always, always

Always worried that I'm going to get hit by a car. So, okay. So we know Mary Elizabeth opposed the crosswalk, right? Yes. And this is stolen injury fear valor from Jordan. This is like O. Henry Edgar Allan Poe shit.

She's furious, right? Jordan is just like, I'm going to lose my mind, right? She's like, all of my valor is being stolen from me. This is terrible. But she's like, no, no, I'm not responding to the neighborhood listserv. Like, I am a bigger person. I won't do it.

Fine. The emails keep coming in, though. And the next email is from someone who lives in the house next to like where this car is illegally parked in the crosswalk, who has gone out there and realized that there is like a large fluffy dog in the backseat of the car. And the neighbor posts a photo and is like, does anyone know whose dog this is? Like that might help us locate the person whose car it is, which is parked illegally in the crosswalk.

And Jordan is like, I don't know this dog. Like, I can't be helpful here. Do you have any, like, questions about the dog in the car? I guess, like, how long has the dog been in the car? That seems unsafe. Is this not a dog that gets invited to the Bark Easy? As we've dubbed it, that feels exclusionary. So, like, maybe the person who parked there is, like, not from there or is not well-liked. That's my question. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. So there are answers to all of this in the listserv, as you might imagine, because these people are nosy as hell. Answers for you. It's like the dog has been in there for like 10 minutes. Okay. Right. Someone saw the car be parked and the person leave. So the dog's been in there for 10 minutes, which is like not great, but not awful. Sure. It's only 50 degrees outside and it's cloudy. Okay.

And the window in the backseat is, like, cracked a little bit. So this is not, like, terrorizing this dog. It's just, like, a little—it's not great form, though. And it's not—like, the dog's probably not psyched. Right. It's like, would I leave my dog in a car? No. Because I'm obsessed with her and require her to be with me at all times. Same. But this is not, like, awful, awful, awful behavior yet. Right. It's not abuse. Right. It's just not, like, best practices. Exactly. Exactly.

And so very quickly, the listserv is dividing into two camps, right? And the camps are this, like, dog owner is going to come right back. Let's, like, give it five or ten minutes and then see. And the other camp is, like, we need to rescue the dog, right? Yeah.

And Jordan is like, oh my God, like this is getting so out of hand when another email from Mary Elizabeth comes in. Hell yeah. I'm reading. Here we go. This email is written in all caps, which feels important. Here it goes. That dog is in danger, she writes. As a committed runner and a marathon finisher, it is necessary to call the police.

And have this dog rescued and this car removed. There is no other way through this. Anyone arguing otherwise clearly does not know how important this crosswalk is to the running community. This is shattered glass, is what this is. To gild the lily with marathon finisher.

That is so over the top. To not even just be like, as a marathon runner. Also, marathon, not relevant to this conundrum right here. Not at all. No. To bring up marathons, bring up that she finishes marathons.

I know. Also, like crosswalks are important for lots of people, like people with disabilities and people with strollers and children just hate stepping off curbs. It's fair to be like this needs to be moved without being like this is an affront. As a mother of running shoes. Exactly. What what do you want to do?

In this situation. I would, I don't, I think I would respond to something short and snide at this point. This is too much. So Jordan's phone is like buzzing, right? And as you can imagine, the people buzzing her are her friends from the dog park. And they're like, don't you do it. Don't fucking do it. Chill. Right? Like they're all like, we're reading them. We're just as mad as you. But like, take four deep breaths.

Right, can't burn it down. And Jordan is like...

Okay. So she takes one deep breath and she's like, you know, I'm really siding with like the people who want to give the dog 10 more minutes here. She's like, I think that this is a terrible idea. I don't think the dog has been there that long. Also, I don't think it's a great idea to call the police into our neighborhood when they historically have not been great here. And I, and they don't help us at all. She's like, and on top of that, my like selfish reason is that this crosswalk is very close to my illegal dog park.

And I do not want my illegal dog park to get shut down. Right? So she's like, to me, one, two, three, four great reasons. Here we go. She opens the reply all window. Here's what she says. This is absolutely ridiculous. I am a runner and I have personally been injured on that street before this crosswalk was here.

I own that that was partially my fault for not looking both ways before crossing the street, but to imply it is so important to runners to have a single crosswalk when you, Mary Elizabeth, campaigned against it yourself is hypocritical and embarrassing. To call the police who notoriously have caused problems for the longtime residents of this neighborhood so you aren't inconvenienced for one day is stupid and selfish. Would that be enough? Yes. Was she done? No. Plus...

I can't find any record of you finishing that marathon. So maybe don't speak for the running community. Oh, that's so funny. Cause it didn't have to be personal at all. And she was like, not only am I going to say, Hey, maybe give this person another few minutes. Like we don't want to, we don't want to call the police and like visit harm to people that, that maybe are, you know, are committing some minor parking infraction in this moment. Right.

But she was like, it was less about the crosswalk, right? Like this was not an email about like, give this person 10 minutes. This was an email about a marathon fraud that tangentially touched on the subject of someone parked in a crosswalk with a dog in the car. As you might imagine, this creates chaos.

Yeah. Jordan has not shut anything down. She has just like lit a bunch of matches and thrown them into a room full of like things that explode. Yep. Fireworks perhaps. But Mary Elizabeth does not respond again. Right. So for the next

10 minutes, the lines are becoming more entrenched. There's now like a canyon between the sides. People are like, we have to call the cops and save the dog. People are like, leave the dog alone. You're being racist for calling the cops. People are like, well, but the dog, right? It's just like this whole ordeal, this whole drama. Some people are yelling at Jordan for yelling at Mary Elizabeth. There is just chaos. What would you like to do now? Oh, I guess move to a new apartment.

That would be my first impulse is like, I can't live here anymore. Do you think there's like any room to save this in the listserv? You know, I don't know. It feels like when you prod a person who has constructed such an elaborate fiction for themselves, they have no incentive to not

destroy you for revealing and laying bare their deception. So I think it's salvageable with the two sides, right? I don't think she's picked Montague's or Capulet's forever. I feel like this is like a listserv where there's, this happens a lot, like people pick sides and they realign on different issues. But I think with Mary Elizabeth, it's like, I think she's cooked. Yeah.

So luckily, at this moment, the city council member is replying all. Okay. And the city council member is like, I have called animal control. They will be here in 10 minutes. There is no reason for anyone to call the cops. Everyone calm down.

Katie texts Jordan. She's like, if they're going to bust this dog out of a car in the crosswalk, we should go watch. Right? Like, we should go downstairs and watch. And Jordan is like, no way. I'm not leaving my fucking apartment. I've created war. I will be sitting in here. Yeah.

So we get this information via text from Katie because Jordan did not see it. But animal control arrived before the person got back for their car. They busted the dog out. The dog was taken to like wherever animal control takes dogs. The car is towed by the towing company.

No one notices the dog park. And if they do, they don't care. Sure. So, like, really the person who's gotten the most fucked over in this story is whoever parked their car in this crosswalk. Because they are about to return to no car. And a dog in a different place. That's so many errands. Like, and when they tow your car, they don't tow your car somewhere you're already on the way to usually. You know what I mean? Like, it's like some vacant place where there's just enough parking.

Like nowhere you want to be has enough parking. It's also like then you have to ask that question, right? Of like, do I go get my dog first? Do I get my car first? Where is my dog? Now I have to fix the window. Now my window is busted. Where they busted the dog out.

absolute chaos. I just wanted to get some oat milk or scratchers or whatever. Exactly. And that is like kind of the end of our story. The wrap up that we have received is that Mary Elizabeth never spoke to Jordan again, which...

Very fair. Jordan continues to follow her on her burners. So we know that Mary Elizabeth quote unquote ran a marathon maybe for real this time a few months ago. Okay. There's still no record of the race time.

So we have some questions about whether she did run a second marathon or not. And our final update for you is that Jordan ran her first half marathon back from her injury a few weeks ago, and she won. Shout out to Jordan. She won? Yeah.

She won. Whoa, okay. That's how fast she is. To win is, like, dazzling. Right. It's also, like, you can only train so much. Like, you and I could decide we're going to train for a marathon and, like, maybe finish a marathon. Yeah. But, like, no amount of training in my life is going to make me fast. Right. So it is, like, incredible that she won. Right. There's, like, a limit. It's like an...

like an asymptotic limit to your physical potential right where you'll just never hit it but you can keep getting closer but like that potential is not the same for everyone like I don't have the like I could play basketball 19 hours a day sleep five and I would never make it into the NBA because I'm 37 and 5'10".

So like, yeah. And she has that. I think that's amazing. Congratulations to Jordan. I honestly, I don't feel bad for anything I've said about Mary Elizabeth or anything Jordan did, but it is like there, it's one of those things where like the stuff she was doing other than the, you know, like wanting to call the police on this cart, which I think could be really harmful, but like pretending to run a marathon harms no one, but,

But it was like so perfectly calibrated to get under the skin of this new neighbor, Jordan, which I like poetically, I think is beautiful. It's just, I love this gossip because I'm like...

What does it matter if someone faked a marathon? But also if a nemesis of my friend group faked a marathon, we would know. We would all know. It would be so funny. But this is a perfect, like a low stakes gossip. Because again, Jordan was injured, which I, and I'm glad she's recovered. But that's not the guts of the gossip, right? That's the backdrop. So like there's nobody, I'm not feeling delight in anyone's injury. I'm just feeling delight in like the ball.

balls on her excuse the expression yeah yeah get her ass do you that's that's all of our gossip do you have any other thoughts or feelings before we wrap this up you know unfair sexed expression to say the balls on her i should have said oh god

But no, I think that was incredible. Thank you for taking me on this tour de force. This really, it scratched an itch that I'm so delightful to have had scratched. Thank you. Where can our listeners find you? Where would you like to be found? Oh, gosh. Well, you know, what you don't know about me is I'm a marathon runner. And so you can find me along my route.

On Strava. On Strava, yeah. You can find me on Strava, which I believe is like kind of an Eastern European pastry that's filled with like a savory ganache. I'm at Josh Gondelman on Twitter and Instagram. I'm...

I am occasionally on Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. And Desus and Mero is coming back soon on Showtime. So look out for that. Josh, thanks so much for coming. Thank you for having me. This was a real pleasure. So nice to chat with you. Thanks for listening to Normal Gossip. If you disagreed with our takes or have a gossip story to share, please email us at normalgossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679-GOSSIP.

You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram at at McKinney Kelsey, and you can follow the podcast on both at at Normal Gossip. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujan Laughlin. Thank you to Projects Editor Justin Ellis and Editor-in-Chief Tom Ley and the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. If you love this podcast and want to support us, subscribe to Defector at defector.com.

And thank you to Lauren for sharing this excellent gossip story with us. I'm Kelsey McKinney. And remember, you did not hear this from me. Hi, this is Josh Gondelman attempting to perform Tracy Chapman's Fast Car with lyrics adapted by Alex and

I think Kelsey.

I remember when we were spying, spying on the listserv. Replies so fast, felt like I was drunk. Mary Elizabeth was making her claims and her Strava proved she was lying to her face. And I, I had a feeling she was a fraud. I, I had a feeling I would call her out, call her out, call her out.

Okay, thank you. I was a little off key, but I think that maybe that's kind of the point. Bye. Radiotopia from PRX.