S3 Ep1: Righteous Lesbian Energy with Samantha Irby
01:03:51 Share

Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.

It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Beats,

Billy Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, FK Twigs, The Killers, Dua Lipa, and John Batiste, and more. Each episode is really a miniature portrait of an artist and how their creative mind works, with the song as the lens we see them through. It's also a great way to discover new music. It's a different kind of experience to get introduced to a song this way, learning how and why each piece and idea came together before you hear the whole song at the end.

Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net. Do people have hobbies anymore? Like, could he golf? I don't know. Like, what do men do?

Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney. In each episode of this podcast, we bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Today, my guest is Samantha Irby. She's an American comedian, essayist, blogger, and television writer. She is the creator and author of the blog Bitches Gotta Eat. She has many books, but her most recent is called Wow, No Thank You. Samantha, welcome to the pod. Hi.

Kelsey, it's the honor of a lifetime to be with you today. I'm so happy you're here. Me too. I'm like thrilled for real. How are you doing? How was your day been? It was good. I'm mostly like...

No, I was going to say I thought about doing this all day long. No, it was good. I had to work earlier, which is good. Because when I have a thing to do, I always have that build up of like, you have a thing to do later, you have a thing to do later. So like work took me out of that.

And now I'm like, I'm fresh as a daisy. And now we're doing the thing. My brain's ready to go. Now we're here. Great. Well, can we start with the traditional question? What is your relationship with gossip like?

Can I say that gossip is terrifying to me? Okay. Because... So I'm like a little bit of a freak. I love low stakes gossip. Okay. For sure. But I'm a little bit of a freak in that I immediately start thinking about like, are they okay? Is that okay? Is that real? Did that turn out okay? And then I spiral into...

What if that was me? Is this person who's telling me this piece of gossip going to record, like mentally record what I say about it to tell the next person? I'm too mentally ill to know people's secrets. I was about to say this is called mental illness. No, yeah. Yeah.

That's true. So truly, like, I like a low stakes, like, newsletter gossip kind of thing. You know, I like a celebrity gossip kind of thing. Because then it's like, well, even if that didn't turn out great, at least they're, like, rich enough to deal with it. They'll live. Yeah. Yes. It's terrible. I, like, I enjoy the gossip for two seconds and then I'm like...

stressed no that's a real person yeah oh i mean that's very sympathetic oh my brain is a prison but i promise i will enjoy today's gossip and then if you get stressed recording i can reassure you it'll be fine okay good good do you consider yourself a gossip i i mean yes i feel like if you say you're not

You're lying. I like to, I mean, I love to hear people's, you know, I like to like smugly listen to someone's story and be like, I wouldn't have done that. Right. I'm not a spreader. I'm more of a receiver. Yeah.

I'm like, I'm a good listener. And I'm a good, although we'll see if I prove this true. I'm a good, like rational, like responder. Like I don't panic and I don't get like all bent out of shape. So I feel like people bring things to me like, hey, let me tell you this thing. And I'm like, yes, I would love to hear it. Meanwhile, inside my like the hamster on the wheel inside my brain is like,

It's like, is it about me? Are they going to use this against me? Is my life over? Yes. Yeah. I usually, I have to, it's so tough to hear gossip about people you know. That's the real killer. If it's like random gossip, like, hey, this girl who I know from whatever, that's easy. But if they're like, hey, want to hear a thing about somebody you went to high school with? I'm like, man, no.

Yes, but also I'm gonna die. Is it just like accountability that's making you so stressed out? Like, is it the holding of the secret? Like, what is it? I think it's the, I am, you know, being perceived is very stressful. Yeah, fair. I think

I can very easily project myself into their shoes. I'm a little bit of a catastrophist. Is that a real word? Sure. In that way where I'm just like, oh, what if that happened to me? And then I get stressed about it. So I don't know. I cannot delight in other people's pain. I mean...

That makes me sound like I'm being like, oh, I'm so nice. It's not even that. It's just like I just immediately imagine the bad thing happening to me. I like the clarification that you're making right now, which is it's not that I am really just empathetic and care about them. It's that I'm stressed that it could happen to me. Yes, yes.

I have, I can't, I have to admit that. No, I have to be honest that that is where, that is where I go. I am empathetic and I always try to help. Like, I truly am like, you know, if you tell me about some bad thing that happened to someone, I'm like, is there a GoFundMe for them? Right. I will,

I'll contribute to assuage the guilt that I'm carrying for listening to their sad tale. But, I mean, I'm nice, but mostly I just am putting myself in their shoes and being like, if that happened to me, I would die. Yeah.

Okay, so this is a question I have for you because I feel like you and I do a fair amount of gossiping. And a question I have for you that is like not really, I'm going to split some hairs here, but what is the difference between gossiping and bitching?

Now bitching, I am a master of. Okay, so I think of gossip. Okay, for me, gossip is like this thing, like, can you believe this thing either happened to this person or this person did this thing? That to me is gossip. Okay.

Bitching is, hey girl, let me tell you what this asshole did to me and how I feel about it and why I want to kill them and why nothing good should ever happen to them or anyone in their family for the rest of their lives. Now that I...

do every day all day for the rest of my life like list my grievances with people who have wronged me enemies that I don't consider gossip like if it's about me it's just a fact I like that you're

If I'm the one talking shit, it's not gossip. Yeah, correct. Okay. And I say that when it involves me. And I, you know, I'm the queen. I mean, you obviously know you have a text message inbox full of it where I'm like, guess what the fuck so-and-so did to me. You know what I mean? It's like, I know it's true because I'm saying it.

I mean, you're obviously getting the biased version and maybe if you ask the other person how it went down, they might give you a different explanation. But gossip is like, hey, I

I heard about this thing that these people over here got into and I'm telling you about it. I don't love doing that, especially because like, I don't know if it's true and I don't want to, you know, be spreading misinformation, but if something happens to me, Oh, I'll tell anyone. Hey, are you bored? Want to hear about somebody who made me mad? Great.

One thing I do really like texting with you because I feel like we'll be texting normally and then at some point it just switches into voice memos and then we're both just screening. Right. And it's like I'm not ever really sure what it is that like causes that tipping point to approach. But I like it when we're over there.

Yes, me too. It's like my thumbs can do a lot of work. But then when I need to go off, I'm like, oh no, you're about to get a two minute, 27 second voice note about this. Right.

hopefully you have the space in your day to listen. Always have the space in my day for bitching. There's something that you said earlier that I want to go back to. You said that when it happens to you, it's always true, right? Like it's, I know it's true because it happened to me. How important do you think truth is in gossiping? Like both to your enjoyment and to its distribution? Yeah.

Well, I think it's pretty important only because if it comes back to me, right? Because here's the thing is like, the thing about gossiping is inevitably somebody's gonna say that you said it. And depending on how confrontational the people involved happen to be.

they might come back to you. And I mean, I would sweat myself into a puddle on the floor if someone came back to me with something I said that I knew was untrue. If I said it and it was true, then I can fight back. Yeah, that's a them problem. Yeah, then it's like, well, I know it made you look like shit, but you did it. Yeah. I like to be as unassailable as possible. Yeah.

You're really playing the best offense as a good defense. Yes. Yeah. Kelsey, apologizing is so hard. It's really hard. In general. But when it, I mean, I need to make sure I really am apologizing for something I really messed up. You know, I can't be out here throwing around I'm sorries. Yeah.

Yeah, all willy nilly. I need to like, I need to be able to be like, No, I am sorry. I knew that was false. And I said it. I love how I'm pretending to be so ethical. I don't think you're pretending to be ethical. I think you're just saying what your own parameters are.

Yes. I'm pretty ethical. I just, you know, I have been confronted not a whole lot, but the few times I have been, I like to know that I like at least have the truth on my side. Yeah. At least you can say. If I've behaved badly, that I have to reckon with. But at the very least, if it's true, then I feel like, you know, it's not so bad. Yeah. I think that that's a great point. Well,

Well, Sam, are you ready to do some gossip? I'm so ready. I'm nervous, but I'm ready.

You know they say anyone can bake bread but few can rock it. Dave's Killer Bread are champions of killer taste, killer texture, and those who rise above cardboard tasting anything. It's America's number one organic bread for a reason. It tastes so darn good. I like to keep two loaves in my house, one on the counter and one in the freezer, so I'm never without power packed bread with whole grains, fiber, protein, and killer taste and texture.

My favorite is the 21 whole grains and seeds loaf. It has a subtle sweetness and a seed coated crust. It's great for toast sandwiches and even by itself. But excitingly Dave's killer bread also has rolls. Now rock and rolls. It's a dinner roll done the Dave's way soft and slightly sweet, but packed with seeds and grains. You'll love find them in the bread aisle.

Visit daveskillerbread.com to learn more and look for Dave's Killer Bread in the bread aisle of your local grocery store. Dave's Killer Bread. Bread. Amplified. From the producers of Anything for Selena and the Pulitzer Prize-winning podcast Suave comes My Divo, a podcast about roots. Dive into the legendary life, music, and lasting influence of Latin America's most prolific songwriter and showman, Juan Gabriel El Divo de Juarez.

Hosted by Maria Garcia, this is My Devo, an Apple original podcast produced by Futuro Studios. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. Our story today comes from a friend of a friend who knows this girl, Franny. Franny, absolute delight, like hoot and a holler. She's got the kind of laugh that like ripples through a room.

And all growing up, Franny's best friend was this guy, Devin. At first, they were just friends because like their dads worked together. But their whole childhood, all they did was talk about how when they grew up, Devin was going to take over his dad's roofing company and Franny was going to grow up and take over her dad's contracting company. Oh my God, that's so sweet. I know. They're like, we're going to be best friends forever. We'll work like our dads do. Everything's going to be great.

Devin, also great. So of course, in the like small Southern city where they grew up their whole life, people were like trying to pair Devin and Franny off. They're like, you two are so cute together. You'd have beautiful kids, which kind of a gross thing to say to two teens. Can I tell you though, the older you get, the more you feel yourself thinking that kind of thing. The more you are drifting into you two are so cute. Yes. Yes.

It's disgusting, but it just happens. Like you lose your eggs and you start trying to pair off teens. Okay, so the end of high school, Devin goes off to like a big west coastal state school. And Franny goes to Tulane, which is like a great school, but it's an hour from the city where they both grew up and a whole prairie away from Devin.

So everyone is like gossiping up a storm because they're like, oh my God, these two kids who are best friends are so far away from each other. How are they going to manage? They talk on the phone every day. That's how they manage. But then senior year of college, Devin comes home from school and who does he bring with him? But his adorable girlfriend, Courtney. Oh no.

After Christmas, Devin's parents cannot stop talking about Courtney. They're like, we love her. She's an angel. She has a great sense of humor. She hates the University of Alabama football team, even though she grew up in North Dakota. Can you believe that? She's a treat. One day in May, Franny is just minding her own damn business at the grocery store, fresh off of graduation from Tulane. She's in a great mood because she just heard from Devin. And guess what? He's moving back.

He's graduated from college just like she did. And some nosy Nelly in the grocery store comes up to her and is like, I am so glad to hear that Devin is moving back soon. Maybe you two can finally be together. Oh, that's too much. Not in the grocery store, please. But it's 2010 now. Franny is an adult. She's graduated from college. She's sick of this shit. Franny's like, ma'am, I am a lesbian. Yeah.

plot twist. Hello. My ears are perked up. So that shuts this woman in the grocery store up fast, right? Because she's like, oh, well, one, I don't know what to do with this. Two, that does mean you can't date Devin, right? Like, that's fair. But Franny is thrilled because she's like, my best friend is moving home. Our plans to take over our dad's business might actually become real things that we do as an

And now that she's accidentally come out in the grocery store to this nosy Nelly, she doesn't have to like tell anyone else. This woman's going to tell everyone for her. So like problem solved. Exactly. Okay. So Devin moves home, but his girlfriend Courtney doesn't graduate until like the next fall semester. So all summer and fall, Devin like works at his dad's roofing company and travels to see Courtney back and forth at school.

Franny and Devin are meeting for drinks every single week. They're a little bar. They're both thrilled. They're so happy to be together. One night in November, though, Devin is like not quite as excited to order his pina colada as he normally is. And Franny is like, what's happening with you?

Like, why are you freaking out? Why are you being so weird? And he's like, you know, I'm just really stressed about Courtney graduating in December. Like it's in four weeks. It's 2010. So like the recession is still kind of bad. Courtney can't find a job. I just feel like she's kind of floundering around. And I just like, I want her to come here and move to Louisiana and live with me. And I'm like, I'm not sure that I'm persuading her. I don't think it's working. I don't think she wants to come.

And Franny's like, why don't you think it's working? And Devin's like, well, the thing is, when Courtney came here for Christmas, she did not like it. Apparently, Courtney thought that Louisiana was New Orleans. So Courtney is like culture, party, palm trees, bees. She did not think 100 degree heat, 90% humidity. Yeah.

She did not think strip malls. Oh, Courtney. So her three reasons for not wanting to move to Louisiana are one, I don't want to. Two, I don't have a job there. And three, it's so hot. I mean, I feel that especially when it was like 92 degrees today. Courtney, I am with you. How do you think that Franny should like advise Devin?

I mean, if I'm Franny, I would say, because I'm a deeply practical person, I'd be like, cut your losses. Nothing is worse than trying to convince someone...

why they should be in a place they don't want to be so i would be like okay bro cut your losses find a louisiana girl who's already acclimated to the heat and won't like complain for the rest of her life about how you ruined her life by making her move and move on

That's what I would say. Does it change your advice to know that Kourtney's other option is to move back in with her parents in North Dakota, where in December it's negative 10 degrees? I guess this is where you find out I'm a sociopath because...

No, I'd be like, that's where you're from. Your mom's there. This clearly isn't going to work if you don't want to be on a roof melting. 10 months out of the year. I actually don't know how long it's hot in Louisiana, maybe 12 months a year. Yep. I would be no, I'm too realistic.

The last thing I'd want is for somebody to be telling me why my hometown sucks every single day. So I'd be like, have fun with the potatoes or whatever they have in North Dakota. Talk to you later. Thanks for the memory. So Franny agrees with you. Franny is like, do not try to persuade this girl to move to Louisiana. Like we like where we're from, but she may not like it.

Devin does not follow this advice at all. He begs Courtney to move to live with them. He like gets another apartment in like a cooler part of town that's closer to Franny that's like nicer and bigger and is like, Courtney, look. He's like, if you move here, we can live in this apartment. I can find you a job. We can be happy. And one day we can get a dog and a house and we can have everything we've ever wanted.

That sounds so nice and is so sweetly optimistic, but is also not ever going to work. I mean, I don't know where this is going, but like in my heart of hearts, I'm like, that's so romantic, but also no. Courtney, sucker, moves to the city immediately after graduation. Oh my God.

She moves in with Devin. She loves living with Devin, right? She's telling all her friends. She's like, he's great, but I hate the South. She does not like the accents. She does not like the big oak trees. The tea is too sweet. She goes to the grocery store. What?

She goes to the grocery store to buy chips and the checker is like, oh, chips and dips, are you having a party? And Courtney's like, this is my nightmare. She like cannot even understand when people use bless your heart ironically. Oh, see, now she just, okay. First of all, glad I was right. But also sweet tea and talking to people about chips and dips.

Is like a dream. I agree. Okay. The only thing that Courtney likes are the drive-thru daiquiri shacks. Do you know about these? Okay.

No, but I want to. Well, I'm going to tell you. So in Louisiana, you can have drive-thru daiquiri shacks where it's like you just go through a drive-thru and you get a daiquiri and like they just hand it to you in a cup with a straw. And the way that they get around like open container laws is just you have to keep that top paper part of the straw on the cup. Incredible. Incredible. You can get whatever flavor you want.

It's incredible. Devin, make room for me. I'm on my way. Courtney's like, I like this part. This is the part I like, the drive-through daiquiris. Yes. But the real problem is that like Courtney's hobby is that she's a runner. And not only is she a runner, she's a distance runner. So when she came to visit at Christmas. Oh, me too. Yeah, same. We love running long distances. We know all about that. Yeah.

When she came at Christmas, it was like hot, but not like summer hot. Right. So every month that she's there, it's getting hotter and hotter and hotter. And she just like she has that like pool of sweat that accumulates under your boobs. You know, she like she can't run outside. By June, there's like no day that she can be outside running.

And she's like checking in with her friends on that running app Strava. And she's like, all my friends are still on the West Coast. Like they're running in West Coast weather. Like the only person running less than her is her friend who had ACL surgery. She's like, this sucks. She's like, it's too hot. I can't get a job that I like. She's like working at one of those boutiques that sells like giant plastic neon bubble necklaces.

And like, you know, those coasters that are like slices of marble, you know, like it's like one of those places. And she's like, I'm gonna lose my mind. I would love that. Or it kind of sounds like an asshole, right? Who am I to say? Okay, no. I know. Let's find out. Okay, yes. She makes it five months all the way until like late June before she starts to begin her campaign to move.

Okay. She's like, I want another job. I want to run all year. I want to live somewhere that's not so fucking small. But Devin's like, I cannot move. Like my plan for my life is to take over my dad's roofing business. So he tells Franny, he's like, I think that she's just like still adjusting. Sweet Devin. Franny's like, I don't think this girl is adjusting. And Devin is like, she just needs a job. If we can help her find a job, then she can be happy. Can you like help me find a job for Courtney? Yeah.

You're Franny. Do you think you should help him? No, because if I love my friend, I see the writing on the wall. I see the running on the wall, which is that Courtney is not happy. There's nothing that can make her happy unless they can like block out the sun. There's no way to please this person. And they should cut to the chase.

And like, let her go and just like have their happy Southern lives. So you the thing you forgot about Franny is that her dream is for them both to inherit these companies and keep working there. And she's afraid that if she doesn't help Courtney get a job, Courtney will leave and then Devin will leave. Oh, right. Okay. So she's like, between the two of us and our infinite family connections, because we have lived here forever, we can find this girl a job.

So they get Courtney a job with like some big, you know, national corporation and they get her a gym membership where she can run inside. Okay. All right. Courtney is like traveling twice a month for work. She's feeling a little better. She's like starting to acclimate. She's getting a little better at dressing for the South, right?

Okay. Courtney, I'm sorry I doubted you. One week in January, Courtney gets invited to dinner at one of her co-workers' houses. She comes back from dinner and she's like walking up the stairs to her apartment complex. And the apartment complex she lives in with Devin is like one of those new build, like barely adult apartments. It's like one step up from a dorm, right? The walls are like made of cardboard. Yeah.

Because she's just been at her friend's house, the starkness of like where she lives and where her coworker lives is just very, very loud. And so she comes in and she's like, Devin, I have figured out how I can be happy here. There is this little neighborhood that I was just in on the north side of town, and I love it. Like, I did not think I could love anything in Louisiana, but I love this neighborhood.

She's like the neighborhood. It's close to a man-made lake. You can use a boat or you can swim in the lake. Okay. Fancy. The lake has a path around it that's fancy and you can walk and jog. There are water fountains everywhere. That sounds amazing. Yeah. There are a few little outdoor neighborhood cats that live there that she can just pet. That's all I would need. And...

There's a quote unquote drive-thru daiquiri bar that's a walkthrough on this lake. So she's like, this neighborhood has everything. She comes back and immediately she's like, not only have I found the neighborhood for us, I've found a house.

I have found a house we can rent. It's a three bedroom, two bath, 1800 square foot townhouse with hardwood floors and granite countertops for the same amount of rent that we pay for this terrible apartment. Pretty please. Can we move to this townhouse? Incredible. What do you think? I, well, first of all, you had me at stray cats. Uh-huh. Um,

I don't think she said stray, but stray. I would go to the place where the cats are roaming. I don't need a walkthrough daiquiri, but I appreciate its existence. I love a marbled counter.

I'm okay. I'd be in if I was Devin and I really loved Courtney and wanted to make it work. I would move. Okay. Devin is also in his like only hesitation is that he really wants to buy a place because they like, they live in Louisiana. It's 2011. So you still like could buy a house. It wasn't insane. And yeah,

And he's a roofer, right? So like every once in a while, he gets like a snarky comment from a client that's like, how could you even know how to do a roof? You don't have a house. Like you don't have a roof. Rude. But there's nothing for sale in this neighborhood, right? Like it is very popular. The option is to rent. He asks Franny because Franny's in contracting. He's like, are there ever houses available here? And she's like, no. No. No.

So Devin is like, you know what? Great. We're going to rent this townhouse. I want Courtney to be happy. It's like not quite on the lake, but it's like a few blocks away. And here Courtney begins to like really settle in. So

They live in the townhouse for three years, very happily. Okay, three years. Courtney gets a book club. Devin and Franny start to actually like line of succession over their family businesses. This is so great.

Franny buys a house. This makes Devin very jealous because he's like, my best friend has bought a house. So he's like always online looking for houses and he's like showing them to Courtney and Courtney's like, I don't like it because I don't want to leave this neighborhood. Like it does not matter what the house is like. Right. It could be a castle and she's like, no way. Yeah. She's like, the thing is the castle is not in my emotional support neighborhood so I cannot live there. Right.

But Courtney is like traveling more and more for work because she's like good at her job. So she's like barely even in the townhouse. Franny has this new girlfriend, so she can't hang out with Devin all the time anymore. And the townhouse is like a little far away from where Franny bought her house. So Devin is like, I'm a little lonely. And like, he's a man who works with his hands for a living. So he's like,

I need to be moving at all times, basically. And he's like, if I owned a house, I could like putter around and fix things, but I don't. And so now I'm just like lonely and kind of bored. I mean, it would be a waste of time and money, but he could do things in his rental. I mean, why help a landlord? But if you really needed to do stuff with your hands, he could do it.

He could fix his rental house or he could, I don't know. Do people have hobbies anymore? Like could he golf? I don't know. Like what do men do? I don't know. Like get a hot, is Franny his only friend? Like, okay, no, let's be for real. If it was me, I would just,

There are so many shows. I would just be like, okay, my girl's gone. So I don't have to listen to whatever that's happening. I'm living in this place. It's cute, but I can't do anything in it. I really would get like deeply invested in some like nine season television show. Yes. That's what you and I would do because we don't need to be constantly moving. In fact, we prefer to sit. Oh,

All of my muscles would atrophy. Every single one. Happily. My brain, most of all. I'd be like, okay, bye, babe. Got a lazy boy. And I would just watch shows. And drink daiquiris. Obviously. Devin is like, I am going to get a hobby. And the hobby I'm going to get is a dog.

So he picks Courtney up from the airport. They go to the pound and at the pound is where they find Potato. Potato is a beautiful Australian shepherd mix and she is so overweight. The vet says that Potato is supposed to be 40 pounds. Potato weighs 85 pounds. Oh no. Oh, Potato. So the vet is like, she's healthy, she's happy, but she needs to move more. And she's like,

And so Devin and Courtney are like, got it. And mostly Devin is like, got it, because he's the one who's always there. So every night after the sun goes down, they like walk Potato around the lake on the weekends. They like get their little daiquiris and it feels like a little treat. Every day, Potato is like feeling better, walking faster. She is not losing weight. Yeah.

Okay. Everyone. I can relate, Potato. Everyone is happy. Courtney's happy because she lives in her townhouse. Potato's happy because she's always walking around the lake. Devin is not happy because Devin still wants to buy a house. There is like a house-shaped hole in his little heart that even the overweight Potato cannot fill. Poor Devin. Poor Devin.

What is taunting Devin is this beautiful plot of land on the other side of the lake that has like a lot of shoreline and a nice clearing for a house, but no house. So for like six months, they're making this loop around the lake and Devin is just like staring at this empty property and becoming more and more resentful. I get it.

Yeah, it makes sense. He's mad at Courtney because she won't let him buy a house that he likes. He's mad at this like neighborhood. He's mad at everything. He's mad at the dog for still being 80 pounds. Exactly. So one day at drinks, he's like ranting, ranting, ranting about this to Franny. And Franny is like,

You're being rude. Everyone makes sacrifices. Like you need to grow up. And Devin's like, but I want a house. I have to have a house. He goes on this whole ramp where he's like, someone owns that property. That's perfect.

And it has been there for the three years that I've lived in this neighborhood and no one is building on it. Probably it belongs to the neighbor who lives next door who already has a house. Like, what do they need this land for? It's not fair. I want it. Okay. Now I'm going to preface this by saying, I don't know anything about anything, but especially not in this field. If I was Franny and I had a contracting business and this was like my diaper buddy, right? Like my best friend, I'd,

I would build him a house. Now, it might not be on that lake, but I'd be like, listen, I love you. Like, we can, let me find you a plot of land and I'll build it to Courtney's specifications. It's not going to be on the lake. But is that a dumb thing? I mean, yeah, no, that's going to be my answer. I would build my friend a house. That's so nice of you. Somewhere.

you're building houses for your friends. Franny's probably like, bitch, shut up. You don't know anything about building a house. But that if this was me, and we didn't have like real life rules, I would build him a house and try to make him happy.

So Franny, like, you're right in that Franny is like a woman of action, right? So she's like, she's like not taking this shit. She's like, stop whining. Stop being a brat. Like, grow up. Just go ask if you can buy it. Franny, you may remember, contractor, we've been over this. Something that I know about because I am a creepy journalist that Franny also knows about is, and you may know about this. Do you know about property appraiser, like county records? Yeah.

Nothing about it. Okay. So every county has like property appraisers and you can go to your county's website, sometimes the like county seat, and you can look up the property records and figure out who owns every plot of land. Wow. Okay. That feels dangerous, but okay. It's good to know. So Franny is like, Devin, you know this. Like you work in construction. What are you doing? Like go to this account, go to this website, find out who owns it.

And go from there. And Devin's like, damn, you're right. I didn't even think about that. So he goes online. He looks up who owns it. He finds out that the person who owns it has like another address listed where they probably live because there's no house on that property. And he sends them a letter. And he is like, hello, I love your property. I'm obsessed with it. We want to live there for the rest of our lives. It's beautiful. We have to have it. Please. Can we buy it? I love that. You do? Yeah.

I mean, if you really want something, like asking for it nicely is, I mean, it's nice. It feels like people don't do that anymore. No one writes letters anymore.

That's very sweet. The owner of this property falls for it. The owner is like, yes, you may buy the property. Oh my God. A happy story. I didn't know what the fuck you were going to say. Okay. I'm ready for the bottom to fall out, but please continue. Oh my God, Alex. Remember the week that you moved to a completely different state. And then also at the same time, we had a company retreat that was in New York city. Yeah.

That was not my strongest planning moment in my entire life. Well, it's a hard moment to plan for because you're like living in four different places, basically. One thing that I did plan really well, though, was that I ordered a Factor box for the day after I came back from New York. What's a Factor box?

So Factor does no prep, no mess meals. And they can come in different options like calorie smart, protein plus, and keto. We love protein. We sure do. We're swole girls. Gains, baby. The meals are fresh and never frozen. And there's also like no prep time. What? You just put it straight into the microwave. It's great. So it's like no chopping. Yeah, two minutes. Two minutes and you're good.

With 35 different meals and more than 60 add-ons to choose from every week, you'll always have new flavors to explore. Crush your wellness goals this summer with dietitian-approved meals and ingredients you can trust.

Enjoy effortless support for your lifestyle. Choose from six menu preferences to help you manage calories, maximize protein intake, avoid meat, or simply eat well-balanced. Head to factormeals.com slash normalgossip50 and use code normalgossip50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month.

That's code normalgossip50 at factormeals.com slash normalgossip50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month while your subscription is active.

You know, we do ads for Rocket Money pretty consistently every month. You would think by now I would have canceled every subscription that I don't use. But guess what? I haven't. Rocket Money reminded me recently that I was subscribed to something I didn't even know I was subscribed to. But it's because it was like an annual subscription. I unsubscribed. And by I, I mean Rocket Money unsubscribed for me. Alex, is this relatable to you?

It is so relatable to me. I would like never check my bank account unless I really, really have to because it gives me so much anxiety. And is there a reason that you check your bank account now? Yeah, I get these awesome emails from Rocket Money that are like, hey, FYI, this is how much you spent last week. And it feels like a gentle person holding my hand as I go to my bank account. Oh, yeah.

Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. They also send you beautiful emails that tell you what your bank balance is, which we love. Thanks, Rocket Money. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features.

Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash gossip. That's rocketmoney.com slash gossip. rocketmoney.com slash gossip. So without the property ever being listed, Devin and Courtney buy this gorgeous lakefront property. And this is where their true troubles begin. Oh my God, of course.

So one night, Devin and Courtney, they're drinking their little daiquiris. They're walking around the lake. Every night now, they're like walking over to this property that they've bought and just like looking at it longingly, right? They're like, wow, our land. It's so beautiful. One night they're doing this and suddenly a little skinny man comes like trotting down the hill toward them. And he's like, I noticed that you've been walking down here the past few nights. Do you live around here?

My stomach. Okay. Are you okay? I truly am like fully sweating. Okay. It's okay. It's okay. When they told Franny about this interaction later, Courtney was like, I knew immediately that this guy was going to be a problem. She's like, he's got not only the Southern nosiness, but there's also like a nimbyism vibe from the first question. Courtney's like bad. Yeah.

Devin does not pick up on this at all. Devin's like, hello, this is my girlfriend, Courtney. We just bought this lot. We're going to build a house here in the next year. So it's so nice to meet you. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The skinny man becomes like full body tense. Like he's his eyes narrow. He's like, well, my name is Bernard. I am the HOA president of this neighborhood. And I did not know that this lot was for sale.

There's always a Bernard, isn't there? Devin does not take this hint. He is so excited. He is like telling the love story of this property, right? He's like, I watched it for years. I wrote this love letter. Courtney is like pinching the back of his arm to try and get him to stop. When Devin finally finishes his story, Bernard goes, well, when you decide to sell it, just let me know.

That's like ominous. Like it's a horror story or something. When you decide to sell it, the house isn't even built yet. And Bernard is telling... I mean, I would feel like Bernard is going to do something to it. Or if I build a house here, it would be haunted. Yeah.

Obviously, I watch too many movies. No, I feel extremely nervous. If someone warned me or told me to tell them when I was going to sell a thing I had just bought, I would immediately have a paranoid spiral. Yeah.

Yeah, you and Courtney are now eye to eye. Courtney is like, we told this man we're building a house and he asked if he could buy it. That's bad news. She's like, on top of that, this guy is the HOA president and he has lived next to an empty lot for a decade. And now we're going to come in and build a house. Like, this is a nightmare. Mm-hmm.

freddie and devon are like you need to chill they're like we work in construction this is not a real problem they're like there's drama like this all the time people are always all bark and no bite like usually the biggest problem with hoas is working hours right like when you can be there constructing your house they're like it's annoying but like it's fine everything will be fine they are wrong everything is not fine

A few months pass. It is now December. Okay. In the meantime, Courtney and Devin, who are like largely liked by their other future neighbors, have been added to a Facebook group for the neighborhood. So they're learning. Oh, that's never good. Oh, my God. If there's one moral of this show, it's that Facebook is bad. Yeah, it's the worst.

So they're learning from this group, like all kinds of petty drama that exists in HOAs, right? Like there's drama about what you can plant in your yard and what you can't. There's drama about what size pools you can have. They're also learning that there are all these weird restrictions, right? Like you can't Airbnb your house. There are no hot tubs allowed. You can't like use your boat too close to shore. There are like no unsanctioned docks, right? There's just on and on and on, just like all this huge list.

So in December, when Devin decides that he wants to propose to Courtney, he goes into this group of neighbors and he's like, hi, can anyone like help me? I'm going to need some extra hands. And they're all like, yes. And they're all so helpful. They like help him get flowers and lights. Devin like builds a floating dock and

Oh my God. How do you do this? No idea. He like builds a dock that can just go like out into the lake once you're standing on it. How does this work? Very unclear to me. It seems very dangerous. Bernard is silent about all of this. So he's like, we're good. Franny and the neighbors like put up a bunch of cute stuff, right? There's like those balloon things that float on the water and light up, right?

Right? So it's, like, gorgeous. They, like, scatter flowers everywhere. He hires a photographer on their nightly walk over there. He, like, leads Courtney onto this new floating dock that he's built. And, like, a bunch of her friends and family are there. Some of her friends, like, even... I know. Some of her friends even, like, flew in as a surprise. And so he asks her to marry him. And she, of course, says yes. She's thrilled. I'm into it. Devin, I mean...

I feel bad for saying that he should have dumped her when she complained about the weather. Because he clearly is like a huge sweetheart. And like, I love this. And I love that she came around. I am still deathly nervous for when the bottom's going to fall out of this story. But love is real. I'm feeling romantic. I'm feeling like warm and fuzzy. Bye.

That's great. Yeah, it is nice. It's a great night, right? Like everyone has a great time. They drink champagne on the property. It's marvelous. Because Courtney's friends are in town, they're like, oh, we're going to go out to brunch with Courtney's friends the next day, right? So they get up bright and early, 9 a.m. They're like opening the door. And there, tacked to the door of their townhouse where they are still renting, is a letter. Here we go. The letter reads, to whom it may concern.

Docs are forbidden on the lake without prior approval and permission. You had neither. Because your property does not have a house on it, it cannot even be approved for a dock. The dock, as it is built, is a safety hazard and must be removed immediately or we'll be forced to take legal action. In addition, the flowers you have scattered are not indigenous to this area and pose a threat to the local ecosystem. Please remove them at once. Sincerely, Bernard, HOA President."

What a fucking hater. Bernard, he was going to take the doc down, right? Oh, God. Do I understand how HOA laws work? No. Do I really understand what this means legally? Absolutely not. And like, neither do Courtney or Devin, really. They're like, does this guy even have jurisdiction? Like, what can he do? Yeah, I'd have no idea. What do you think they should do in this scenario where he has demanded they take their doc down?

Well, I am a coward and terrified of the law. So I would immediately, I mean, I don't know that I'd go pick up every pedal, but I would certainly break down the dock.

And hide all evidence and cross my fingers that there's no HOA police that would come drag me out of my house for my proposal doc. Yes. Courtney and Devin are like, they also agree that you should take down the doc. They're like, this seems just like a battle that we do not want to fight. And they also know in the back of their head that they're going to have to get housing proposals approved by the HOA to build their house. Yeah.

So they're like, we cannot make enemies over a temporary floating dock. They remove the dock. They pick up the flowers. In January of 2018, they submit the plans for their house to the HOA. Two weeks later, they get a letter back. Their plans have been denied. They cannot build their house because their house is a two-story building. That is the basis of the denial. I knew it. That damn Bernard.

But Franny and Devin both work in construction. So Franny is like, that is absolutely not a thing. Like there are other houses in this neighborhood that have two stories. And the way that HOA laws work is if one person can have it, everyone can have it. So she's like, they can't deny you on this. Like there must be some reason they don't want you to do it. And Courtney's like, I'll tell you the reason. Bernard doesn't want us to have a house there. But they redo their designs. In March, they submit another set of drawings to the HOA.

30 days pass, nothing. Another 30 days pass, nothing. No. After 60 days, they have not heard back from the HOA. Oh my God. There are some laws I don't understand, but what the laws say is that if you haven't heard back from the HOA in 30 days, you can move forward with your construction. Oh, great. What do you think they should do? Well, I feel like they should build the house, but also...

There's a part of me that's like, oh, Bernard's just gonna like set it on fire in the middle of the night because whatever reason he's decided he has a vendetta against these people, he's going to like mess up their plans. Yeah.

Franny has absolutely no tolerance for Bernard. And she's like, we waited 60 days. I want to build this house. I don't give a shit about the HOA. I'm getting permits. We're laying a foundation. We're moving forward. This house is now in progress. Yeah, that righteous lesbian energy. That's what I'm talking about. It's March.

They start going, they're going to town on the house, right? Like her and Devin are building the best house that's ever existed. And for a while, everything is quiet except for the hammering on the house. Then on Christmas Eve. So we're now what? Nine months after they've broken ground on this house. There is a big old knock on the door of the townhouse.

Devin and Courtney are getting ready to go out to dinner with Devin's family because it's Christmas Eve. Courtney is like midway through putting her earrings in when she opens the door. She's like still holding an earring in her hand when she accepts a cease and desist letter from a lawyer because they started building without HOA approval. Come on. Christmas Eve. I mean...

Like, if I'm being honest, if this was me, the minute I felt a little static from Bernard that first time, I'd be like, fuck this, we're not living here. But at this point, like, now we just gotta fight. I'd be like, Bernard, get over here with a bat and let's, like, see who wins. Let's just be each other. I like that you're having a bat fight. Like, what?

It's a normal way to have a duel. I don't know how to do regular fighting. I'd be like, you get one weapon, I get one weapon, no guns, and let's see who wins. Okay. This is basically where Devin and Franny are. They know enough about this that they know that they haven't done anything wrong. And they're like, if anything, the HOA did something wrong by not responding to our plans. So we are

are fine. And Courtney is like, yeah, people do things all the time that are fine and they still get tied up in court for years for doing nothing wrong. Courtney's like, is this even worth it? Like, do I even want to live in my perfect neighborhood anymore? Like, what is the point if I can't get a house built with a roofer and a contractor on my team? Like, who can get a house built here? Right.

Courtney is like mid breakdown, right? Franny and Devin have gone off somewhere to discuss their plan. She's just losing it, right? She's like, it's over for her. Franny and Devin come back and they are furious and they have a folder. Inside the folder is intel that they have gathered. The intel is one, two,

They have found out that Bernard sued another homeowner across the lake last year because he put in a light that he didn't like. Okay. And he sued that man for $50,000. Oh my God. What is Bernard's damage? They have also found out

that Bernard actually bought his property from Franny's dad during the recession. Uh-oh. And Franny's dad, like, cut him a deal so that he could pay Franny's dad back instead of having to, like, get a mortgage through the bank in the worst time ever. See, this is why you can't do anything nice for people. Ha ha!

But now they're like, we have a strategy, right? They're like, Franny's dad was really nice to this guy. Franny's dad will simply call Bernard and fix our problem. Do you think that this is going to work? I absolutely do not. Unless Franny's dad is terrifying in some way. If he's just like a regular nice dad, then...

No dice. But if he's like scary, maybe. The problem is that Franny's dad is a regular nice dad. So he calls Bernard. Bernard does not care. For six months, Devin is like on and off the phone with lawyers.

While still hemorrhaging money on his rental property. And building a house. Oh, God. Okay. Devin is furious. The lawyers are like confident. They're like, you know, some couple in Idaho, they put up 200,000 Christmas lights and got sued by their HOA and won. So like, you guys should be fine. And Courtney's like, we didn't put up 200,000 Christmas lights. We just want to build a house. Yeah.

Everyone's fighting. They're going back and forth. There's like insane drama. Everyone is miserable except for Potato, who's getting even more walks than usual because everyone's so stressed. I forgot about little Potato. One year after buying their land, house is still not done. Devin takes Potato for his walk by himself because Courtney is uptown. And he's like, wow, there are like a lot more stray cats than I remember there being.

He's like, that's weird. So he like asked Courtney on their nightly phone call and Courtney's like, oh, I haven't noticed it. But Courtney has memorized the HOA handbook now. She knows that it is forbidden to feed the stray cats. She's like, so maybe if Bernard is doing that, we have something on him. I don't know. I'm vexed. Okay.

The lawyers are like, I don't know, dude, that's like a pretty weak argument is that this man may or may not be feeding stray cats. Like this is a dead end. We're stuck in this legal battle.

I am feeling nervous about potential cat murder. I'm also feeling nervous that Bernard's going to level up in some terrifying way. I'm also like sort of like, why didn't anybody reach the point truly where they were like, let's go beat Bernard's ass? I mean, I couldn't.

But I would, I don't know. Like, why haven't they started the revenge part of this operation yet? Yes. Okay. So get this. Two months before the house is done, Franny and Devin are like on the roof. You know, what are they doing? I don't know. Some construction thing. They're on the roof doing the construction thing.

And Franny is like, okay, two weird things are happening. One, there are a lot of stray cats and they're all in Bernard's like area, like in his back and front yard. She's like, two, what's that behind those trees over there? Oh my God, it's a hot tub.

Bernard's feeding cats and soaking in his tub. He's bringing all the HOA rules. So Franny and Devin obviously take a picture. They send it to Courtney. They're like, this is why he didn't want us to have a two-story house. Because from the roof, we can see this. Oh my God. Of course. It's not about the two stories. It's about his secret hot tub. All this about a hot tub? All this about a hot tub. Ah!

I feel like, I mean, okay, I'm not a lawyer or a mediator, but I feel like there's a little deal to be made. Like, hey, guys, you can build your house if you don't snitch on my hot tub. Like, don't people believe in greasing palms anymore? Yeah, truly. $100 handshake, baby. Where is it? Yes.

Okay, Devin talks to Franny about it. They discuss it. Devin and Courtney discuss it. Courtney and Franny discuss it. Everyone is in a discussion tornado. What they decide is it is best to let lawyers talk to lawyers. We will tell the lawyers and we will let them talk to Bernard's lawyers. That's very mature. But then...

Devin takes his usual Ambien to go to sleep. He wakes up in the middle of the night. He posts on the H3 Facebook group, just wondering what the rules exactly are on hot tubs. I know Bernard has one. So I was wondering what size exactly we're allowed to have. And he hits send. Sweet, sweet Devin.

His own worst enemy. This, as you can imagine, creates chaos. Bernard is furious, but also the group chat is furious, right? People are bringing up feuds that go back 10 years, right? They're like, Bernard wouldn't let me have my hot tub at this point. Bernard puts too many signs in his yard, blah, blah, blah. One woman is like, there are so many stray cats in Bernard's yard that like I had to call animal control to come like round some of them up.

Oh, no. This is what, like, works the group up the most, right? They're like, not only does Bernard have a hot tub, which is against the rules, he is also feeding the stray cats, which is also against the rules. Like, two strikes, you're out in the HOA. The group, without Courtney or Devin, impeach Bernard as HOA president. Oh, now I love this. Okay. They make him remove his hot tub. They demand he stop feeding the cats. Bernard has been vanquished. Oh.

So much so that when Courtney and Devin finally move into their house at the end of 2019, they only lived there for three days before Bernard put a sign, a for sale sign in front of his house. Oh my God. What do you think?

There were so many times in this, what, seven, eight year span that this could have been worked out, that there could have been a secret deal made, that there could have been an agreement. And now all of these cats have been scooped up. Bernard's out. Courtney and Devin have been wasting all this rent money because they couldn't build their house.

Yes. I mean, it's mostly like a bummer, but also like, what is Bernard's problem? Who do you think the villain of this story is? Well, this is hard. Talk me through it. Why is it hard? Well, because you want to say Bernard, right? Because like, he's clearly, uh,

an asshole feminism won't let me say courtney even though she's part of the reason that we're here in the first place so i'm gonna have to say devon you're picking devon do

He should have let old girl stay in North Dakota where she could go running outside or California, wherever it was she wanted to be. He could have had his house that Franny built in a different town that's not on a lake. He never would have met Bernard. Yet Devin, Devin is the one that left it all behind.

I do. I did think there were a couple of places you could come down to that. I did not expect Devin. Um, so thank you. Bernard's too obvious, whatever it is about Bernard's personality, his, uh,

Other HOA people have been letting him get away with it for this long. They would have never had to meet Bernard if Devin had been strong enough to just get his house wherever Franny had her house. And they could have been next door neighbors and business partners. And he would have never had to know about any of this. Right? That's the wrong answer, but it's the funniest one. So I'm going to go with that.

There's one more thing. Oh, so Courtney shipped Franny's girlfriend a birthday present. And it was like really nice, right? Like a little handmade mug from Etsy. And then a couple weeks later, like she accidentally sent another package to Franny's girlfriend, right? You know, sometimes like your Etsy gets messed up, and then you accidentally send something to someone else.

Yeah. And Courtney was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I just like shifted to the wrong address. Franny's girlfriend's like, no problem. Just come get it whenever you want. Right. So Courtney goes and gets it. Franny's girlfriend doesn't tell Franny. Nobody thinks about this again. Right. Because stuff like this happens all the time. One night during the pandemic, when the four of them, Courtney, Devin, Franny, and Franny's girlfriend were in their little pod, right? They're all just like drinking. Courtney, a little bit drunk, leans over. She's like,

Do you want to know what I had shipped to your house? And for a second, Franny's girlfriend is like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, what? What are you talking about? And she's like, oh, remember, I like I shipped you your birthday present and I shipped something else. And Franny's girlfriend is like, kind of like that was an insignificant part of my life. So I have no memory of that. But I do kind of remember it. Courtney is like laughing so hard that she can't breathe.

She chokes it out. What she sent to Brandy's girlfriend's house was catnip seeds. Four weeks when Courtney was going on her little runs, she was taking a handful of catnip seeds and throwing them into Bernard's yard. Oh, my God. Front and back. So it took like a few months for them to grow. But that is why there were so many feral cats. Okay. Okay. Okay.

First of all, that's like so demonic that I respect it a little. I'm mad that I have to now feel bad for Bernard and mad that I tried to do a like girl power thing and not hit Courtney as the villain. But okay, Devin should have known. Yeah.

Devin should have known that she was taking catnip seeds. No, he should have known that she sucks. When she first started complaining that people were too friendly, he should have been like, this isn't the woman for me. Oh my God. This does not change your life. No, it does. No, she's the worst. She's the reason they had to rent that house. She wouldn't give up the lake. She wouldn't give up the daiquiris.

Oh, I hate having to turn on a lady. But Courtney is the villain. It is kind of impressive if you think about it, though, that like she managed to get everything she wanted. I mean, she really did. You have to respect it. You have to. That's like, that's like maniac. I would have never thought Katnipsy. Like, first of all, who even knew like you could grow Katnipsy? Not me. Super not me. Yeah.

I had no idea. Oh my god. That's incredible. What an evil genius. Yes.

I assume she still has her two-story house. Yeah. And lives on her lake. The updates we've gotten is that they still live on the lake. They have a beautiful house that they love. They reinstalled their dock once they had the house. And Potato, it turns out the reason she wasn't losing weight is that she didn't like walking, but she does like swimming. So she jumps off the dock and now Potato is in great shape. Oh, Potato. Well...

That's a happy ending if I've ever heard one. It really is. But I still, that's, I mean, some Gone Girl shit. Devin better watch out. Sam, thank you so much for coming on Normal Gossip. This is a delight. This is the best night of my life. Truly. I will be side-eyeing all of my neighbors for the rest of my life. Yeah, if you get a lot of cats in your yard, you probably should watch out. Music

Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossipatthefector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679-GOSSIP.

If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at normalgossip. You can follow Kelsey on all social media at mckinneykelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujon-Loughlin. The Factor's Projects Editor is Justin Ellis. Our Editor-in-Chief is Tom Ley. Jay Tolviera is our Production Assistant.

Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. And remember, you did not hear this from me. Radiotopia. From PRX.