Spam calls. Sound familiar? Introducing line two. Get a second phone number right on your existing phone. Imagine. Discounts. Appointments. Online forms. Handle it all without giving out your personal number. It's like having a secret weapon against spam. And when those unwanted calls sneak through, boom, blocked. No more interruptions. No more stress. Stay connected. Stay safe.
Hey, pull up a chair. It's Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod and Mike Murphy. Hacks on Tap.
And now a message from the president of the United States. We basically have two countries that have been fighting so long and so hard that they don't know what the fuck they're doing. Do you understand that? Well, there you have it, John Heilman. You know, usually you're the first guy to throw an F-bomb, usually. And now we got it from the president. I understand Senator Slotkin has occasionally thrown an F-bomb in her time. Three sources of duty in Iraq.
And a lot of campaigning in Michigan Union Hall. Yeah, I'd say she has. Sources familiar say that Alyssa Slotkin has occasionally dropped an F-bomb. Senator, you want to start by trying to give us a good fuck yes for the audience? No, you know, I...
I have had some slip ups, but you know, it's amazing in Michigan. Michigan is the best state in the country because it's so diverse for in so many different ways. And one of them is every time I swear, I get a ton of people who write in and call in and say, yeah, like, fuck. Yeah, that was great. We love that. Keep that up. And then, and,
literally just as many calls saying, you really don't need to do that, sweetheart. There's just no need to wear like that. So it's a... Yeah, but you probably have more people, the people who say you don't really have to do that are probably the people who are already with you and the people who hear you do it say, hey, hey,
Maybe there's something there. I don't know. Anybody who calls you sweetheart is probably voting for you, is my guess. I also know that Senator Slotkin did get an F-bomb in there, recounting the phone messages she dropped in there. So that's great. Well, let me ask you a question, Alyssa. John and I were talking about this earlier yesterday.
Does this help Trump? I mean, you know, in a sense, this was the essential Trump, right? The guy who goes right from his id to the microphones with no editorial function. And so it reads like authenticity. This guy just, nobody ever says, gee, I wish he'd speak his mind. And that's part of his political strength. Is it a strength for him as president? To swear? Or, I mean... Well, just that general kind of...
You know, I think it is proven that it's a strength for him because he keeps getting reelected. And I think the the thing that, you know, after 25 plus years of Americans watching reality television and.
Americans can smell when someone's faking something. Yeah. See it. They can smell it. There's those unspoken cues like we know it. And Trump is someone, you know, just he does not seem to care. And that plays with people right in a world where politicians use three point talking points and workshop language and the whole thing. You know that he's not workshopping stuff. And I personally don't like what he says most of the time, but I have to give it to him that he certainly doesn't.
being true to himself. That's for sure. Well, what do you like? Go ahead, John. Well, I was going to say, it's funny that there was a period of, there was a little period at the beginning of Trump 2.0, where you heard Democrats all of a sudden dropping F bombs, like in, it became like a tactical thing, almost like you would just suddenly, I'm mad as hell, you know,
It sounded phony, right? And one of the things about this, I think people's tolerance for profanity in America after watching years of streaming television and all the stuff that people I think don't get that. I know you get some people who maybe call you and say, sweetheart, you don't need to say that. But most people have a much higher bar for that kind of stuff than I think
a lot of establishment people think. And I think it does work for people to sound like if that's how you really talk, talk that way. But there's another aspect to this, and it goes to the main point that we need to talk to you about, Senator, or with you about. There is this improvisational quality to Trump that goes along with this that extends to policymaking.
and policy making on stuff that's pretty profound like war and peace. So talk to me a little bit about what you think where we are right now, because over the last few weeks we were in, we were out, we were all about negotiations and then we dropped bombs and now we're about peace and negotiations again. You're an expert on this region.
And you're an expert on the use of military force and so on, having served in the Bush National Security Council, in the Defense Department under Obama. Talk about this. Yeah. Well, I would hazard a guess that we have never seen in American history a president telegraph his goals and his position in negotiation more frequently, more clearly than
or more overtly than Donald Trump, right? We had, I think, 10 tweets in the days before the United States got involved in this conflict that telegraphed, we want peace, we're going to drop bombs, we're going to do this, we're going to do that. And it's very common for a president, you know this, to try and shape a negotiation. A lot of Democrats are like, Trump shouldn't be trying to influence us. I'm like, what are you talking about? Every president in history has tried to influence a negotiation.
and try to say that if you don't come to the table and get a ceasefire or whatever, then I'm going to drop bombs. I mean, that's usually unspoken. Trump just put it in the tweet for the whole world to see. So it's definitely breaking new ground on sort of...
so to speak, Twitter diplomacy. Right. But I think you also saw by the hour his position vacillating and changing in a way that didn't give a ton of confidence. Right. I mean, if you're if you're concerned that there's not an overall strategy and you see 10 tweets in a couple of days, then you're concerned. And
I think Trump has always, I think, treated international disputes as something like a deal he can just solve in New York City over a building or something. And he always forgets that the enemy gets a vote, that these negotiating partners like we're seeing today, Israel and Iran, don't always behave the way we want them to behave. You know, he's mad in that moment, probably because he just couldn't get done what he wanted to get done with the Israelis.
That was based on what we've heard. So I think it's just a kind of new era. And it doesn't give a ton of confidence that if something goes wrong, right? Imagine yesterday,
When the Iranians were shooting at the base in Qatar, which is an unprecedented thing for the Iranians to go after U.S. forces in a country that has its own military, that's not a war zone. Imagine if they had been off and instead of firing into some open desert on the base, they actually hit a chow hall or they hit a base. And suddenly you've got, God forbid, 60 Americans dead.
The pull to do something and retaliate and now get further embroiled in this would have been significant if they go and would have mined the Persian Gulf and a Navy ship would have been hit. You can see how you may try to make international crises dissimilar.
discreet and just one and done. But the enemy has a vote. Miscalculation sends you in a spiral of escalation that you can't always contain. And I think what makes someone like me concerned who's done national security my whole life is that they're sort of a cavalier feeling about it. And if they succeed, great.
But if not, the risk of escalation is serious. And you're talking about American men and women who are on the line there. So that's what his erratic sort of, yes, I want ceasefire. Yes, I want military action in the same hour does not give me a ton of confidence that he's ready—
with a plan. Plus his own team is out there saying things that are, you know, they go out there and say, this is not about regime change. And then he says, it's about, you know, he's, he raises regime change and, you know, they say, we're not in this Marco Rubio and Israel attack. This is not our war. We're not involved. And, you know, week later, we're dropping bombs there. I think it's exposed. It's exposed this real rift between,
within the Republican Party right now and who they want to be on national security. You know, are they the party of Reagan? You know, I mean, Trump keeps repeating Reagan's line, peace through strength. But peace through strength was a very muscular role abroad. No one accused Reagan of being anything like an isolationist. So there's that wing. And a lot of senators, I think, subscribe to that kind of ethos. And then the kind of J.D. Vance,
isolationist wing of the Republican Party, kind of the newer feeling, the younger feeling of like, we don't want to get involved. We said we were going to run on lowering prices. We sort of know we haven't done that. And so we don't want to be getting embroiled in something else abroad. And this all came out in that leaked signal chat.
Right. If you actually read it, as some nerds like me did, you know, you see this debate and the vice president United States being like, are we sure that we should be doing this? So when you have military action or the prospect of it, that seem that debate really comes out. And I think behind the scenes, there's quite a bit of of angst or there was.
And maybe a successful strike. And if we can get out of this without Americans killed, maybe that that quiets that conversation. But this is change in action in the Republican Party on who they want to be and what the American leadership role should or could be abroad. Well, we saw this last week, right, where you saw, you know, Tucker Carlson, Steve Bannon,
et cetera. Marjorie Taylor Greene basically saying, don't do this. The kind of MAGA isolationist voices were heard. And even now, even in the wake of the strikes, you have people like Alex Jones who are out there saying, you know, Trump's, this is terrible, right? Vance, in a very interesting political position here, right? Because as you
As you said, Senator, he's probably more aligned with that wing. He wants to be the inheritor of that wing, but he also wants to be, he also has to keep Trump happy. So here's how J.D. Vance is trying to square that circle. And the second thing is, Kristen, I certainly empathize
with americans who are exhausted after twenty five years of foreign entanglements in the middle east i understand the concern but the difference is that back then we had dumb presidents and now we have a president who actually knows how to accomplish america's national security objectives so this is not going to be some long drawn out thing we've got in
We've done the job of setting their nuclear program back. We're going to now work to permanently dismantle that nuclear program over the coming years. And that is what the president has set out to do. Do you think that's an effective walking of the tightrope there for J.D. Pence? I mean, I think...
Everybody knows, you know, you're the vice president. You have to do these things. And you're speaking to a customer of one like all of these hearings, like all of these media appearances. These guys are not actually always communicating with the American public. They're communicating back to Donald Trump that they're still on side. They're still on the team. And he's always watching.
Yeah. And he, yeah, he really does watch. It's amazing. So, you know, I, I think he's going to Bob and weave and do whatever he has to do. But I, I think the again, if we get out of this on the cheap,
Right. And no Americans were killed. And and it you know, there's not an embroiled situation. There's no mistakes. There's no crash landings. No pilots went down in Iran. I mean, there's a lot of scenarios we used to practice out at the Pentagon. You know, things go wrong. Right. You lose equipment and suddenly you've got, you know, Americans held hostage. You get boats, you know, maybe ships that are taken over by Iranian military. So if we get out of this,
relatively on the cheap, then I think, frankly, we won't be talking much about this three months from now. There's so much news. There's such an overwhelming amount of information coming out. But when you risk life and death, blood and treasure, I just want to know that the people in charge are not shooting from the hip. And the answer that J.D. Vance gives that, well, this president's smarter than the last president,
doesn't give one comfort that they've really thought through these scenarios. And eventually your luck runs out and foreign policy has a way national security issues have a way of coming to you, even when you you're, quote unquote, the smartest president they've had. You know, it's just it's just, you know, it's.
I think we just had this big military parade in the streets of Washington. I think big, I think big is probably the wrong word. Well, the parade was big. The crowd wasn't big. The crowd wasn't big, but the president wanted to see all the military hardware rolled out as a symbol of, of strength. And I guess virility, uh,
And now, you know, the appeal, he watched what Bibi Netanyahu was doing in Iran and the appeal of getting in there and showing what we could do seemed to seize him. The question is, what was the objective and have we advanced it? And I guess, Senator, I'm asking you this.
Did it net-net? Was it the right decision? Or do we have to wait and see what happens next? I think we have to wait and see. I mean, I think the truth is my view on this is completely colored by doing three tours in Iraq alongside the military, where I saw two things up close. I saw Iran kill Americans. I saw Iranian militias and proxy forces target Iran.
Americans target Iraqi citizens. I've seen their terrorism kill friends of mine. I've seen their ballistic missile program
I've seen them hold it over the region, and certainly I've seen them hold a potential nuclear program out over the region for my entire adult life, right? My entire life. So they are not good actors, and they have been threatening and causing problems in the region my entire lifetime. So I have no love for their government.
And so, you know, to be honest, I look at that and I say, man, when someone's been a bad actor like that,
You know, it gets my hackles up. But on the other side, I also saw what happens when America thinks we can do things really quickly. The Iraq war was supposed to be in and out of Baghdad. Greatest military in the world was going to take this down, take Saddam Hussein down and out and done. We're still we got troops that are being threatened by Iranian drones in Iraq today.
that are still there, right? So that, I think those two, I think competing ideas live in my head rent free constantly in this conflict. And I
And I think that it's just too early to tell. No one doubts. I don't think certainly I was involved in doing the war planning on this very scenario when I was at the Pentagon. No one doubts that the United States military could successfully execute a big strike in Iran. That wasn't the question. It's the day after. Yeah. Well, listen, I mean, on the day after thing, though, there is this question of where, you know, I've got a couple. Where's the 800 pounds of
highly enriched uranium. It's buried in the ground. JD Vance has now moved the goalposts on that day, but he says he's buried in the ground. The first night it was, we got it all. And now it's buried somewhere, but they can't do anything with it. That's his newsstands. Yeah, and the other thing is, have they retained enough of their equipment to enrich it? He says, no. I'm not sure we know that. The answer to that...
It's too early to tell on all of this. And anyone who tells you they know the day after a strike or two days after a strike, it doesn't actually understand how U.S. intelligence works, how U.S. military assessments work at all. You were in the you were you were over at the Defense Department during the negotiations on the the nuclear agreement in 2015. Right.
Do you think we would be better off today? Would we be further down the road to the goal of controlling their nuclear ambitions if we had stuck with that agreement rather than walking out on that agreement? Yeah, I think that agreement works.
went after the preeminent threat, which was their nuclear capabilities, but unfortunately remained relatively silent on their ballistic missile program, which have been firing at Israel, you know, this whole time and their terrorism, which, you know, their proxy forces, which held so many people hostage euphemistically in the region for decades. I think Trump had an incredible moment of leverage when he came in and he was complaining about the Iran deal that Obama signed.
And he was threatening to get out. He had this incredible moment of leverage where he could have turned back to both the Iranians but also the Europeans and
and say, you know what? I want additional deals. I want a better deal on the ballistic missile, the nuclear program. I want to improve it. I want to stack on top of that a new ballistic missile deal. And I want to stack on top of that a terrorism deal. So instead of scrapping everything and leaving us with nothing, actually using real diplomatic moments of leverage to get us a better deal on nukes, but then additional deals on these programs that were left out. And
you know, I, I, that to me was a huge failed missed opportunity.
I think that the Iranian nuclear deal had some real flaws. And as someone who watched, you know, people being killed by Iranian rockets and mortars and EFPs, like they killed Americans and they held that over our heads and regional players. And that was not accounted for in that deal. And that to me was always a huge gap.
Let me ask, let me turn this to politics just because I know the Senator's time is limited and get one last question in here about this situation, right? You have, um,
the country watching this drama play out with Iran. And then you have this debate in Washington, D.C. And I would say that you're going to give a speech at CAP later this week about the future of the Democratic Party. I hear everyone from Ro Khanna to AOC talking about the War Powers Act and Democrats mad that Donald Trump didn't consult them before doing this. And I say with all due respect to those people,
I've been watching my whole life. This debate happened every time there's a military strike. The party that's out of power complains about the fact that it wasn't consulted in Congress. And it feels to me like that horse is out of the barn. We might not like it, but it's kind of out of the barn. And I think for a lot of Americans, when they hear this discussion about the War Powers Act, they think,
Whatever. D.C. What Congress is. Why, John? John, just we have this clip from Hakeem Jeffries, the House leader. Constitution is very clear on this issue that only Congress has the power to declare war and to authorize the type of offensive actions.
military action that Donald Trump deployed in striking Iran. Now, Donald Trump is going to have to demonstrate to the American people and to us in Congress that there was an imminent threat
threat that justified his actions. So no dis to Congress, which you're a member of. Yeah, it's just a winning argument. Does this discussion seem like divorced from how most Americans actually, does this strike you as this is like a winning argument for Democrats to be making? Or does it feel kind of divorced from how most Americans really perceive this, which is Iran bad. We don't like wars, but Iran bad. If we can get out on the cheap, it's fine. And lower my prices, please. I think
When it comes to the Trump administration, there's sort of two things that are constantly happening. There are the responsibilities we have to push back when this president tries to blur the lines in the separation of powers. That is a responsibility of anyone in leadership. That doesn't mean it's a politically popular thing, right? You can't send your kid's
summer camp on democracy. You can't feed your family on democracy. And so I'm never going to sit here as someone who comes from the state of Michigan and tell you when I'm a walking, you know, in downtown Holly, Michigan, where I live, people are coming up to me saying, oh, my number one problem is democracy and the threat that this man poses to democracy. It's not, but that doesn't mean it's not our responsibility to stand up for it and defend the
those things. And you're right. Congress has ceded its responsibility, an oversight over war and peace since the Iraq war, when both parties were like, that was really politically unpalatable. I'm not doing that again. And that's Democrats and Republicans are going to have to grapple with that
But that doesn't mean that we ignore what this president does. And that goes for him ignoring court orders. That goes for him trying to pass new election laws. I'm not going to make TV ads in Michigan on only on democracy issues because people in my state care about their pocketbooks. They care about their kids. You got to explain how you're actually making it possible for them to stay in the middle class or get beyond it.
but it doesn't abrogate my responsibility to freaking fight for those democratic norms. And so, yeah, it's not politically palatable. Fine. But it's my job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but on the politics, because we are hacks on tap, it does seem to me that people look at this. It shouldn't necessarily guide policymaking or what you and Congress do to meet your responsibilities. But
You know, I suspect as you walk the streets of Michigan, what you hear about is lower our costs. And yeah, let's not get into these foreign wars because we've got a lot of needs here at home. A hundred percent. And that's the prism through which I bet they're watching. So I bet you there are a lot of people who at this moment, not knowing what might happen next, think,
Yeah, great. We we got in on the cheap. We got out. We're not in a war. We got the bad guys. And now we can focus on on other things. And that is what I mean, if you want to talk about what Democrats need to be talking about from the rafters is like.
just had, he promised that he was going to lower the costs and he promised that he was going to put more money in your pocket. So people may not know big fancy Washington policy, but they know their own pocketbook. They know how much they save every month. They know what it costs to send their kids to the soccer camp they want to send them to. And so just, just do an honest accounting. Has he saved you any money? Has your, that calculus,
At the kitchen table, changed it all. And the answer is hell no. In fact, it's gone the other direction. That's the conversation to just lean in on because it's reality. And I took the price down at Holly Foods of all the big items in the grocery store on January 22nd. And I'm just keeping book on what those things are. Just it's hard to do, but you said you were going to do it. This is what you said you were going to focus on. He's going to raise the cost of your health care by January 1st, period.
Period. Everyone in America is going to because of this bill that we're not talking about right now because we're talking about Iran. So I just I think we got to keep book on this man and use the fact that the average American knows their pocketbook. They may not know Washington speak and like drill down. We need to take a quick break right now. We'll be right back with more of Hacks on Tap.
David, you're a man who loves dogs, I know, like I do, but you're also a man who loves cats. Yeah, man, I swing both ways. Tell me about your experience with Pretty Litter. My cats, Augie and Twizzler, are the best cats on the planet. I want to do the best for them, and that's where Pretty Litter comes in. Pretty Litter helps monitor your cat's health.
detecting abnormalities in your cat's urine by testing acidity and alkalinity levels and showing the visible presence of blood. And boy, you want to keep your cats healthy. So that's so important. Pretty leadership's free right to your door. It's non-toxic, pet safe and household friendly. Plus,
It's low dust, controls odors, but not the least important thing. Plus, it's low dust and lasts up to one month. I'll tell you something. Again, I can't speak personally on this matter, but our executive producer of the show, the queen of all hacks, Hannah, she found out that her senior cat had health issues based on the color-changing litter from Pretty Litter before they became a sponsor of this podcast. This is like some serious testimonial to the power of this product.
Hannah can attest to the fact that there's a real sense of relief in knowing that if something's off, as it was with Eleanor, Pretty Litter will let you know. It gives you peace of mind every single day. Even though I don't have a cat, you can see a great deal coming a mile away. Right now, folks, you can save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy at prettylitter.com slash hacks. That's prettylitter.com slash hacks to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy in the bargain. Prettylitter.com.
dot com slash hacks. Now, pretty litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details. Music
I mentioned the cap speech before. Do you want to give a quick preview of what it is? You're going to say you're one of the big voices coming out right now, sort of center for American progress, sort of the center of progress, leading progressive. You got a message for them. Yeah. Tell us. I'm going there. You know, I haven't always agreed with everything that cap has put out, which is why I wanted to go there to make this point. I, to be honest, I made this speech are making this speech because I think the,
Democrats cannot win unless we have an offensive plan that explains what we want to do, who we are, how we're different, what our value is to the American people. And while Donald Trump is doing no shortage of things that just make us
play defense all day long. You know, anyone who watches any sport knows you can't just win by playing defense. So I ran around trying to figure out, okay, who is in Washington here? Where is it? Where's the vision? Who's got the vision piece? And I couldn't find anyone who was working on that. And so I said, like, screw it. I'm just going to
you know, sequester myself. I'm a good Michigander. I don't know that it works in every corner, but my bet is if it works in Michigan, it would work in, you know, other parts of the country. And I'm going to lay out importantly, um,
a plan on economic security. That's where we have to start, right? Of course, later on this year, I'll give a talk on national security and we need to talk about democracy. I talked about that, but everything in this country, just based on who we are as a country comes from economic security. And that means getting back to that value proposition that we all believe in as Americans, which is that if you're here, the government sets the conditions for success
And then you got to come in and work hard to achieve it. But the government needs to change. We all know that. We all know that the government is not working for the average American, not just Trump voters, for the average American. So it's an attempt to put down some markers on like, if I'm queen for the day, this is what we would be talking about every day.
You could be queen for four years. You could run for president, get elected president, and you'd be the queen. Uh-huh. Sure. Yeah. You know, I'm very wary. I'm very wary of, you know, the conversations now. It's like if there were plenty of people, if there were people putting out big ideas and laying down the marker and saying like, hey, Slotkin, you're a new senator. We want to buy you into this. Like, here's what we think it is. And there was like a team of
if Democrats work better as a team, then I'd be, I'm a team player, right? This is out of sheer desperation as six months into my tenure as a Senator, that if we don't play offense, we're going to lose. And it is my job not to let
That happened. Yeah, well, I think one of the points you make is so important because I keep saying Donald Trump's doing a teardown. The question is, and some of it is terrible and some of it is necessary. And the question is, what are you going to build?
What are you going to build? What are you, and are you just going to restore what was there? Because what was there didn't work for large numbers of people. Or are you going to build something new, something more resilient, more responsive, closer to people? Yep. And, and I think,
That's been hard. I think a lot of Democrats, again, in the spirit of playing defense are like we they've sort of become the party of the status quo. And that means don't have their ear to the ground in a place like Michigan where.
People have like, is there anyone in America who thinks that health care is working? Is there anyone in America who thinks our education system is knocking it out of the park? Like, we don't think these things are working. It's like an ill-fitting pair of pants, like you're constantly uncomfortable. And so we need to change it. And we shouldn't be fearing change. We should lead. And it's smart change, not dumb change, which is what this president's doing. I have that problem with my pants all the time.
I want to see if I can get it. Here's a concrete question for you before you have to go, Senator. Here's the thing. I'm looking at a story from earlier in the spring. You said a bunch of stuff that I totally agree with in principle.
You said that the public perception of the party is weak and woke needs to change. You said the Democrats need to fucking fucking here we go. Fucking retake the flag. That's in quotes here. And that they have to adopt the goddamn alpha. The goddamn alpha energy of the Detroit Lions coach, Dan Campbell, and Bryce, the airing out of potential 2028 presidential candidates. So what is just one thing Democrats either need to stop doing or
or need to do to accomplish the goals that you said there? In principle, I love all those goals. Just what's the specific thing? We need to do this or we need to not do that? I think the most effective thing that we could do
is understand that when we, when everyone has to have their own organization, their own protest, you know, Democrats need leadership, wartime generals, leadership that pulls us together instead of turning on each other and attacking each other. And Democrats, it seems to me for the better part of 20 years have been like different planets, you know, in a solar system with,
with no organizing sun, with no principle. Everyone's doing their own thing. Like suck it up. If you're, if you've got a group or an issue, join with other people, do bigger and bigger things. That's the legacy of the civil rights movement, the women's rights movement, everything, every important movement needs a grassroots groups to bind together and be some wartime leadership. And that is what we need in this party. That's a hell of a benediction right there.
So we got to let you go. We're getting like all kinds of messages from your staff here. So you better go before we all get in trouble. But a pleasure to have you, Alyssa. I hope you come back off and you're a refreshing, candid and smart person. And we need more like you. Well, it's a low bar politics. So thanks, guys. Thank you so much. Okay, let's take a break right here for a word from our sponsor. We'll be right back.
People who are regular listeners to Hacks on Tap know how I feel about my Helix mattress. You love it, I think, right? You do love your Helix, Zach? You love it. You adore it. You worship it. I love it. I tried it out because they were a sponsor. And now I have three of them in different places because they are so damned awesome.
Good. He looks as the God in your sleep time religion is what you're telling me. Yeah. Well, anything that helps me sleep is a God to me. What happens is you take a test, they give you a little quiz, and based on that quiz that involves your sleep habits and preferences, they send you a mattress. The mattress is kind of freeze-wrapped. You open it up. It takes a few hours for it to fill out. Okay.
And then, you know, it is this fantastic sleep. I sleep so much better on my Helix mattress. And if you have, you know, I'm a guy who,
has all kinds of sleep apnea and all kinds of other things that make sleep difficult. Helix mattresses have made that better, and I can't recommend it enough. I urge you all to go to their site, take their test, and take advantage of the great offer that John Heilman is about to explain. Well, seriously, here's the thing. I've been on this show with some regularity for quite a long time. No one has sent me a Helix mattress yet, and when I see the list of things that it solves,
Snoring, back pain, sleep apnea, sleeping through the night, sleeping too hot, sleeping too cold, anything that could go wrong. I have all those things. Yes. Every single one of those things. And yet no one so far has sent me a Helix mattress, even though I get on the show and I boast about how great Helix mattresses are. And I tee you up, David. It seems really unfair.
Yeah. They also have King California size. So for a big dude like you, that would be perfect. We're going to hook you up. And maybe if he gets more sleep, he'll be a little less irascible. Yes, that's right. And a little more like, you know, I just constantly say, yes, David. Yes, David. David, you
right? Oh, David, you're so wise. I would say in your dreams, but we've already established that you don't sleep. So go to helixsleep.com slash hacks for their 4th of July sale and get 27% off site-wide. That's helix, H-E-L-I-X-S-L-E-E-P.com slash hacks for 27% off site-wide. Helix Sleep. That's helixsleep.com slash hacks.
This is the smoothest transition in the history of Hacks on Tap guest transitions, since I don't think there have been very many, really, historically. No, we rarely do this, but we had the opportunity to have two great, great guests and two big stories. Right, exactly. So here we have with us Patrick Gaspard, a longtime, one of the great figures in political strategy in our era, and someone who was a colleague of David's.
And a legend in New York. A legend in New York politics, for sure, but also a colleague of David's on the 2008 campaign. Yes, and in the White House. And in the White House, and over at the DNC, and then eventually became the American ambassador to South Africa, Patrick. And also a guy who had a big role at CAP.
somewhat differently sized role at CAP now, but we were just talking about Alyssa Slotkin about to give a speech at CAP this week about the future of the Democratic Party. So there you go. Thank you for the CAP plug. We're looking forward to the Senator's speech, and it's always great to hear a U.S. Senator dropping F-bombs with John Heilman. So excited to be on. Anybody can drop F-bombs with John Heilman. It's a daily occurrence. Yes, it is.
Almost no one I ever speak to doesn't in response to things I say. But Patrick, we started the show by playing Donald Trump, saying that both Israel and Iran don't know what the fuck they're doing. And we had a little conversation with Senator Slotkin about whether or not that kind of salty language is part of Trump's appeal and maybe something that radiates authenticity. Not that all politicians should swear or drop F-bombs, but that there's an authenticity there that works for Trump and that other politicians could learn from. What do you think about that?
Yeah, we're, you know, this is no longer the era of polite society. The 20th century ended sometime around 2014 or so, and the rest of us are just catching up to a reality that Donald Trump picked up on some time ago. So I'm all for a little bit of salty reality.
with the sweet in our politics right now. Well, salt is going to probably be in demand here because people should be staying hydrated in New York. It's 100 degrees in the shade today here, Axe. Miserable. But it's primary election day. We could talk to you about so many things because your experience is so broad, but the reason we needed you so much today is because there's an election going on in New York that
actually has implications well beyond the borders of that city. And that's the mayoral primary for the Democratic mayoral primary there. And it's boiled down to really interesting finals. Just and I don't want to describe it. You describe it. Give us the state of play and let's talk about the implications of it.
And I will say quickly, David, to your point, last night I got this text from Patrick, not about the show, just apropos of nothing. Occasionally I get a, I'm blessed with the text from Patrick Gaspar. He said that he thinks that Zoran Mamdani is likely to win and that he thinks it's a seismic thing, meaning to be keying in on your national implications comments. So that's just tease you up a little bit more, Patrick. I was going to, I was going to let him make these points for himself, but I
I'm sure he appreciates it. He still will make these points, I'm sure. John loves to push me off the plank. So I'll say this. I got out of the prognostication business in November of 2016 because something happened then that no one could really foresee. So I'll just say this about the race. First, I want to rewind and dial back for a second because every election is part of a continuum. And the election here in New York is the first...
actual wide open participatory election that we've had in some time because in 2021, when Eric Adams won, we were still in the pandemic. We couldn't campaign openly. It was the first time that New Yorkers were experimenting with early vote, with wide open vote by mail. And it was also the first time that we had ranked choice voting in New York. So uneven rates of participation. And for 90% of the race,
the candidates couldn't even get out on the streets and on the door. So it's been a while since we've had a kind of a wide open contest like this. And with a whole bunch of people running, some of them who are like longtime friends of mine, really good, committed civic leaders, it's all boiled down to a generational challenge between a former governor
Andrew Cuomo, whose father, of course, was famously governor for multiple terms. Andrew Cuomo is a powerful name brand nationally and certainly here in New York versus a 33-year-old first-time member of the state assembly named Zoran Mamdani, who no one heard of before this campaign and his entire campaign.
thing, this entire case has been kind of lightning in a bottle for progressives, the center-left in New York, who failed to coalesce around left-center candidates in previous elections, but think that this time they may have figured out how to get to
50 plus one in rank choice. So it's a generational challenge and a victory by Zohan Mamdani, who is being outspent massively by an independent expenditure campaign that's being funded primarily these days by
Michael Bloomberg and DoorDash. But he's making up for that with thousands of volunteers who are on the streets. And David, since you know politics really well, I've participated in every mayoral contest here since I was a teenager in 1985. That's why you're a legend. I've never seen...
volunteerism and activism at this level since the 1989 David Dinkins victory in New York. Something's happening here. You saw it in the early vote, right? I mean, a remarkable early vote in New York, heavy, and like a quarter of the people who voted in the early vote never voted in a mayoral election before. You're getting to my next punchline. So we have doubled the early vote participation from 2021 to
About 385,000 New Yorkers voted early compared to about 191,000 in 2021. Twenty five percent of those voters did not cast a ballot in a Democratic primary at any point between 2012 and 2024.
That makes them new participants in this kind of election, and we've never seen these kind of numbers before. In 2021, by comparison, the percentage of folks who cast their ballots who were new voters, first-time participants in the Democratic primary was 2%.
three percent right now it's at a whopping quarter so something's happening uh that is driving that energy i believe it's the organizing of the mamdani campaign uh and if you look at the patterns of early participation particularly in the largest turnout county which is brooklyn uh county it skews heavily young particularly in central brooklyn and downtown i think that's our mamdani country
And Patrick, to your point about the, for, for, for one thing, I didn't push you too far out of that plank because when you wrote to me about this, it was the Emerson numbers had come out that, that, that, that, that, that were on the base of the early boat and their, and their modeling projected that Mondami, Mondami would win. And there, that's kind of the congealing conventional wisdom that that's the likeliest outcome. It's not certain, but the likeliest, the thing about those Emerson numbers that was so striking to your point about the generational conflict is that
Mamdani's support, you know, not only is the youth turnout high, but he's getting like 50% of voters in their 20s and 30s. And all of Cuomo's strength is he's strongest in the demographic in the group from 50 to 59. And then he's strong in voters over 60. But
But if Mamdani wins this race, it is going to be genuinely a youth quake. That is the story of this race is that there was a generational conflict and young voters turned out and carried Mamdani from nowhere two months ago into the, into city hall. We should parenthetically add, because you were, you were kind Patrick inside and in framing the race that Cuomo carries some heavy baggage into this race. He was driven from the governorship and had to resign because of, uh,
allegations of sexual harassment. Allegations which he acknowledged at the time and now rejects. My guess is that most of the Hacks on Tap audience probably, we have a very sophisticated audience. Yeah, but I mean, I think that that weighs heavily in this. And what's interesting about that here, you know, I think that Andrews
Andrew Cuomo is trying to have a what's the name of the former senator from Minnesota who had to resign? I think I think in a way, Andrew Cuomo is trying to prove the Al Franken case where a lot of Democrats had had buyers. Franken was.
and i'm one of them who thinks that he was unfairly driven from unfairly driven now and that he shouldn't resign and andrew who at first expressed remorse for his behavior as a governor now this campaign he's saying none of those things happen and i shouldn't resign so he's kind of trying to like frame this in a kind of franken moment but his negatives are astoundingly high without that zon mamdani doesn't get to first base and
since I think one of the reasons why you wanted to have this conversation with me is because of the ways in which this could reflect some natural trends. In addition to Cuomo's negatives, there is the reality that a lot of that youth vote in New York City
is compelled by the war in Gaza and the circumstances there really kind of galvanized an argument with that generation that they wanted to see change in the Democratic Party. I'd remind us that this seismic shift that we're seeing follows another
interesting seismic shift in New York, where Donald Trump, in November of last year, won 30% of the vote in New York City. In his previous contest in 2016 and 2020, his fellow New Yorkers rejected him wholesale. But now he outperformed every Republican going back to George H.W. Bush in 1988. So a lot of younger people in New York, a lot of Latinos in New York, a lot of South Asians in New York, actually outperformed
gave Donald Trump their vote in surprising numbers. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez did a kind of now famous Instagram Live where she was having a conversation with people in her district who voted for her, but who also voted for Donald Trump. So there are these interesting compositional shifts, ideological shifts, ideological nimbleness that we're seeing in this generation that I think
is important to understand and analyze as we go into the midterms of 2026 and the national election in 2028. Let me say one more thing about Cuomo, of course. Cuomo said that if he loses this race, he's going to run as an independent in the fall. And I think there's, Patrick, I think it's fair to say that even, that there are a lot of people whose basic view is that Andrew Cuomo is a creep and a thug. Some of them will vote for him even though he's a creep and a thug.
But, but there is, that's, that's why he's the number right now. Pulled the number two, Howard Glazer. I just want to inject some poetry into this, into this podcast. Howard Glazer, former Cuomo, my favorite thing, former Cuomo aid who yesterday put on Twitter, the following and David, I know you love poetry.
He just, he says a grim and joyless campaign as befits a battle for a prize. Never wanted one long viewed with disdain and contempt as a trifle that only lesser men would debase themselves to seek victory. If it comes at all, we'll be bandaged with tinny fanfare and strident gloat to muffle the voice at the center. That won't stop with string. I, I,
I'm hollow. I mean, come on. You can hear, you know, when I read that, I got to that last sentence. You can kind of hear Marlon Brando's whispered voice in Apocalypse Now coming out of the shadows. I'm hollow. My poetry, John, was like Ogden Nash. I wish I could see
Wait, never mind. I can see clearly now the rain is gone. I don't think that's Dr. Nash. No, no, no. No, it was, I've never seen a billboard as lovely as a tree. Indeed, unless the billboards fall, I may never see a tree at all. That was his. Anyway, we need to sneak in one more quick break right now, but we'll be back with more of Hacks on Tap after these words. Hacks on Tap
Hey, David, we got this great new product out there in the world that I absolutely adore. It's called Delete Me. Delete Me makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. And I got to tell you, I have a lot of
of data online. Most of it, I wouldn't mind if everybody saw, but some of it, I really would mind if anybody saw. Some of it I can't even imagine. Yeah, so you don't even want to try. And that's the great thing about Delete.me. It does all the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites. Delete.me knows your privacy is worth protecting, so you sign up,
You provide Delete Me with exactly what information you want deleted, and their experts take it from there. They send you regular personalized privacy reports showing what information they found out there in the ether sphere, where they found it, and what they removed. As someone with a very active online presence, privacy is really super important to me, and that's why I use Delete Me to keep my personal information personal, a.k.a.
not for public consumption. Yeah, it's so important and it's going to be more and more important as time goes on and the technology keeps changing. So take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete.me. Now at a special discount for our listeners. Today, get 20% off your Delete.me plan by texting TAP
T-A-P to 64,000. The only way to get 20% off is to text TAP to 64,000. What is it, John? So that's TAP, capital T-A-P, to 64,000, 6-4-0-0-0. Message and data rates may apply.
To stick to Howman's poetry and your question about national implications, I'll go here. And here's a tension that's playing out inside the Democratic Party, not just in New York, but across the nation right now. And I think Senator Slotkin was like pushing on this. I think she's going to really press into it in her speech at the Center for American Progress. When Andrew Cuomo was presented with the early vote numbers and the high turnouts,
It was interesting to hear his response and to compare it to Zoran Mamdani's response. So Mamdani gets the early vote numbers and reporters says, what do you think of this? And he says, well, people are turning out because they're excited about new ideas and what it means to build a new city together. Andrew Pobol's response was, yeah, of course there's high turnout. People are turned out because they're afraid.
They thought, wow, what a contrast right there. It's like the security vote versus the reform innovation. What was that? He's counting on Cuomo's counting on a lower turnout. You know, there are a lot of parallels with the national. Yeah.
Totally, but it reminded me of acts of distinction that we had in 2020 and 2021, where one moment you're in the George Floyd moment, and then the next minute you're in the backlash to the backlash. I think an interesting thing is happening in our big cities right now, which are generally mostly recovered from the pandemic. Crime is way down across America, certainly in New York. New York right now is the fastest growing city in the country.
there's a different kind of energy than I think Andrew Cuomo expected and anticipated coming into the contest. He thought this was going to be a conversation about crime. And instead, it's a conversation about affordability, which is why I think
Trump did well here in New York and why Mamdani is doing well. We got a bite from Mamdani from when he was at the House of Justice, Reverend Sharpton's place a couple of days ago. And let's listen to a little bite of this, because I actually, you know, you talk about Gaza driving these young people. This issue of affordability is really the central issue.
Kind of. I want to be I want to be clear, David. I didn't want to overstate Gaza in the race. Affordability is the issue in the race. Gaza was an early catalyst. Yeah, yeah. But listen to this. You get a sense of why he's driving some votes here. Because we hear politicians of the past come on stages across the city, including this one, saying that they believe this is the greatest city in the world. But they do not answer the question that Dr. King posed decades ago.
What good is having the right to sit at a lunch counter if you can't afford to buy a hamburger? What good is being the greatest city in the world if New Yorkers can't afford to live here? What good is it if our own people cannot afford their rent, their childcare, their groceries, even $2.90 for their metro card? What good is that but making a museum of what once was in the city that we love? And so I stand here before you as an assembly member running for mayor with a very simple message.
I am running to make the most expensive city in the United States of America affordable. Yeah, there you go. I mean, that's the essence of his message. And it also gives you a sense of the guy's charisma. But Patrick, you and I first met in, I think, 2001, maybe during the Fernando Ferrer campaign when I was doing Freddy Ferrer in New York. And I'm listening to this debate and it's like,
20 years old, right? The two New Yorks that there are people, you know, there are people who are living in, in, in, in tremendous opulence in the city of New York. And then there were working class people who are being priced out of their city. And that has only been exacerbated by what's happened in the economy and in the financial community. So, so on since then. So, but I think maybe this affordability issue is,
is more pervasive nationally. And there is a lesson. It goes to what Alyssa Slotkin was saying about what she hears in small towns in Michigan. I was going to say something that both of you will not be surprised by. But, you know, like long-time activists like me who've been in the trenches on working class issues, you know, I'm a SEIU guy, came up in the ranks from my union.
I have always felt that nothing becomes a national issue or an issue for politicians, really. And so white folks start feeling it. Right. So there's always been this tension in the city and this polarization in our communities. You can map it back to that Fiora LaGuardia's campaign for mayor. And what was his first one? Nineteen thirty four. You can you can you can map these divides in the city. You can also trace.
racial demographics in the city by income, like clear divides. But now an interesting thing is happening. The reason why Zora Maldoni's campaign is taking off isn't just because people of color are feeling this, but white college-educated voters are leaning heavily...
towards Zon Mamdani because they're feeling the affordability pinch and the affordability crisis, and they're feeling like they're drowning in debt. And that's making that appeal kind of resonant for them in the city. And I think that we're seeing that play out in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Arizona, et cetera. Younger white college educated folks are carrying more debt today than they
ever have in the United States. That's resonant. You look at those Emerson poll numbers that John referenced, and in a sense, it also speaks to the challenge for the Democratic Party because Mamdani is getting 62% of college-educated voters. As you mentioned, he's getting 61% of white
I'm sure they're college whites, you know, non-college voters. Cuomo, 61, 39. Yeah, right. Yeah, there's just there's just there's the story right there. You know, the perception of the guy with the tool belt around his waist is not voting for the 33 year old inexperienced guy with a funny accent.
But, you know, Axe, you and I worked on a campaign like this in the past where one candidate was, you know, counting their experience. And a whole lot of people are thinking, you know what, your experience is in defending a bunch of status quo institutions that are not working for me. And so enough of those folks tipped over.
to make the difference. And the other important thing to understand here, when you look at those numbers from that Emerson poll, a lot of that is also driven by the reality of ranked choice voting in New York, which is not available in most places. It's an innovation that New York finally picked up. But the reality of that, when you're looking at someone like Andrew Cuomo, whose negatives are astoundingly high, that means like nobody in the voting frame, you're the voting frame number one because you have belief in his experience, name recognition, you're worried about security issues.
or none at all. Whereas Mamdani is picking up number two votes from Brad Lander supporters, Adrian Adams supporters, Zola Meir supporters, your friend Michael Blake supporters have voted Zora on number two. The Working Families Party here in New York has done an impressive job of pushing this campaign of rank everybody except Andrew Cuomo because of how he cut Medicaid and all the things we need to discover. So it's really an interesting strategic point that speaks to your broader view
about the philosophical tension that exists for a large liberal party in the country. So here's my question to the two of you, and it pivots off of, Patrick, your thing just now. I really don't, I mean, this is not a shot at Zoran to say he's no Barack Obama in various ways. And although the right tried to paint Barack Obama as a William Ayers, like, radical lefty,
Barack Obama did not have the background that Zoran Mamdani does. And there's a reason why your other colleague from the Obama years, Dan Pfeiffer, is writing this in his newsletter today, the incredibly stupid, self-defeating Democratic panic about Zoran. Now, there is a Democratic panic about Zoran. And the panic is centrist Democrats saying,
And I think some of the things Alyssa Slotkin says at cap this week are going to be more centrist. She's, as I read back to her, her figures about the party being seen as weak. We need the biggest tent possible. This is not an either or. Right, totally. But I guess what I'm, this is my question to the two of you.
So a politician who can capture young voters right now, the Democratic Party is a valuable thing. But if you look at, if you're sitting in the Republican Party and you're looking at a guy who was the co-founder of his, Epit Boden, where he went to college, who was a co-founder of the Students for Justice in Palestine, who is a relatively inexperienced, as you pointed out, Patrick, state assemblyman, who's now going to inherit the biggest municipal budget in the country.
who, for the purposes, this is an Obama thing, whose father named him after Nkrumah, who was a proud Democratic socialist who's full-on embracing that creed. There's a reason why some centrist Democrats at this moment are going,
Man, like, weak and woke. This guy is weak and woke all over. He's a Breitbart parody. So what's the answer to that? That's, you know, as the Oklahoma City Thunder, sorry, as the Indiana Pacers would say, that's why you play the game, right? There's an expectation coming into the NBA Finals that the OKC runs away with the damn thing. There's an expectation at the start of the mayor's race here.
that there was a particular environment that existed, that Democrats had decided they were going to turn away from woke-ups, and whatever the hell that means, and that Andrew Cuomo would romp. Andrew Cuomo isn't romping. We don't know what's going to happen here. Andrew Cuomo may win, and Zoran Mamdani may win. Whoever wins...
they're going to barely win. And it's going to demonstrate that the tank is really, really large, extraordinarily capacious. Uh, and that the argument has not yet been settled and still alive one. And John, I'm sorry, I'm going to like push back on you on who's a Barack Obama or not. You just heard that little, um, recording that acts played and you could hear the, the, the, the song, uh, in mom Donnie, uh, as he's, as he's, as he's preaching, uh,
uh, in Al Sharpton's pulpit. The kid has a skillset that is really can't candidate candidates really matter. And, and, and actually I'm going to say one, one last thing, you know, when you're Barack Hussein Obama, a black man, he's never been a black person who's like been president United States before. And you're connected to Reverend writer, all those things, you know, in retrospect, we make it seem as if it was an easy thing. It was the most unlikely thing ever. And I'm going to read to you, John, uh,
I'm going to conjure up a line from the New York Times, which put out this kind of weird endorsement, non-endorsement. It was an endorsement of Cuomo, but they couldn't quite say it. Here's language from the New York Times. Quote, he seems always to want to have in hand some socialistic plaything or other, which is dangerous and impossible in practice. That's not a line from the Times about Zoran Mamdani.
that's a line from the New York Times, when Fiorello LaGuardia was running for mayor, who of course turned out, and you talked about his lack of experience, turned out to be the most important and transformational urban mayor that America has ever had anywhere. So I would just like caution us about these things and learn some of the lessons of history and examine really, really closely the assumptions that we're making about the electorate and what they're looking for. I think that the horrific murder
of the health insurance executive in New York. And the response to that, which was not a left or right response, but an outsider versus insider response, reprehensible response. But it told us something about how folks are feeling about status quo, experience, elites, et cetera, that we have to be mindful of as we try to maintain a big, wide tent
in order to beat Trump. By the way, LaGuardia was a Republican. We should note that you don't find Republicans quite like that these days, except in the Museum of Natural History. But I, just as someone who was there for the Obama journey... Were you? Were you involved in that venture in some way? I would point out that he was... You know, we did not win that race by speaking to issues that
that appeal to narrow constituencies. We spoke
primarily about the economy. And we spoke about an economy in which more and more people weren't having, getting a chance to get ahead and we're having these struggles. And so the question for mom, mom, Donnie is if he is nominated and we won't know, by the way, probably till July 1st, because they've got to go through rounds of, unless something happens today, that is very unsuspecting. Then he gets 50%, but that's hard with this field. And,
The question is, can he focus, and he is on the affordability issue, on things that bring in more people? Can he defy, given what John said, which is his background is more of a left activist perspective,
than Obama's was. Can he broaden? That's just the right question. He seems pretty agile, and we'll see. But this is going to be tested from now until November because there's going to be a tremendous campaign on the part of the establishment in New York
to try and stop him from becoming mayor. And the Democratic Party has a stake in that debate and how he conducts himself, if he is nominated, you know, is going to be important. There'll be a campaign, by the way, to November if Cuomo is nominated as well. A couple of quick things, a couple of quick things today. I think that both Andrew Cuomo and Zoran Bamdani are exceptional political athletes. That's why they're the ones who are like, you know, standing at the very end here.
I think that Mamdani has a nimbleness that will surprise national actors who are looking at this from the outside. John just cited his biography. He talked about his student days. He didn't talk about his time in the assembly, where Mamdani really doubled and tripled down on things like... That's what Republicans will focus on. John, John, John. But that's why the talent matters, right? I know. Think about the fact that Michael Bloomberg himself
has dropped $8 million in this race. I think DoorDash dropped another $3 million against the kid. And yet here he is, Ackerman dropped millions. And yet here he is, neck and neck against a three-time governor whose last name is Golden in New York. That tells you something about the skill set here, the nimbleness, the agility. I do believe that if he is successful,
successful in the primary. He's going to immediately meet a signal about the kind of police commissioner he's going to have, whether or not he'll keep the current one. And the current one is damn good, by the way, actual reformer. He's going to have the signal on what his focus on affordable affordability means in a practical way when it comes to settling a massive
budget in New York City that's going to suffer as a consequence of the national cuts by Trump, particularly in the health care sector, which is the most important part of the New York economy. And he's going to have to be really, really clear about what it means to protect all New Yorkers, including Jewish New Yorkers,
who are right to be fearful and concerned after Boulder, after the Washington, D.C. Act, after the violent rhetoric around anti-Semitism, which is a real thing here in this town. So he's going to have to do a lot of work to reassure on that, but he's got to do it in a fashion that still galvanizes and mobilizes that youth energy that is on the cusp
of carrying him to seismic success. So Patrick, you know me well enough to know the following things are true. I think the guy's an incredible political athlete, and I'm super impressed by what he's done. I'm not trying to... By raising the specter of what is worrying a fair number of centrist Democrats nationally and what is causing a fair number of Republicans to lick their chops, I'm not discrediting him or his ability to deal with those things. I'm just pointing out that those are the things he's going to have to deal with. And as an example, I know we're running out of time, but...
He was on a podcast the other day and was asked essentially to denounce left-wing anti-Semitism. He failed to do that and was systematically attacked by— Is that what he was asked to do, John? Well, he was asked to— Yes, I think that's Patrick. Precision matters?
I think he was asked to comment on things that have a lot of left-wing anti-Semitism built into them, things like from the rivers to the sea and globalize the Intifada. But let's not get into that argument. He was then – all that happened was most of the organized world of Jewish interest groups came down on him like a ton of bricks in the subsequent days.
because he had not denounced it as in their view, had not denounced anti-Semitism on the left clearly enough. And he then stood in front of the cameras in New York when he got an endorsement from my friend, Maya Wiley, I believe, and had this moment, which we'll play. It pains me to be painted as if I am somehow in opposition to the very Jewish New Yorkers that I know and love and that are such a key part of this city.
I get messages that say the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. I get threats on my life, on the people that I love. So I'll let you guys answer this question. You know, in that moment, that kind of break down a little bit, breaking it, kind of losing its composure a little bit there. I...
he's going to be attacked way more relentlessly going forward than he was by, but in that, that he was responding to there. And I'm just asking you guys, the question is, what do you think, John? I want to hear what you think you, you have, you have a point of view. John is uncomfortable about expressing his points of view. Well, I'm not uncomfortable at all, but, but I'm not trying to say that the guy has the skills to go forward. I'm saying,
I think that that was a worrying sign of someone who couldn't take the heat in the kitchen. And when he gets hit, and that's a worrying sign. Yeah, I think the past is prologue in this conversation. We started this conversation by you coming off of the Alyssa Slotkin moment, and the F-bombs, and you talked about authenticity.
I think that we live in a time where people reward authenticity and actually reward vulnerability in their elected officials in ways that's really, really different. Really different than the past. I think there's another issue, though, Patrick. I think there's another issue here. This is, and it's going to remain, a very...
pregnant issue in our politics because of what's going on in the Middle East. He has a very, very distinct point of view. And I'm sure that there were Jews who were listening and who are, you know, I consider myself, my father was a Jewish refugee.
I was, you know, horrified by what happened on October 7th. And it had all kinds of reverberations for me. But I still weep for the children of Gaza. The question is, can he weep for the Jews who were killed on October 7th? Does he understand? And I'll tell you who's going to put a big spotlight on him on the day after he becomes the nominee, if he becomes the nominee. Donald Trump.
And they're going to want to make him a poster child. And the question how he deals with these questions. I think that's the right question. National implication. I'm not I'm not dismissive of the questions. And, you know, if he wins is still a major if right. The way the electorate the way things shape on Election Day, you usually have more older voters coming out. We'll see how it happens today. To John's question and to your point.
Mamdani opens up that response talking about Jewish New Yorkers who, I mean, I heard the whole thing, Jewish New Yorkers who he's met. And he says, and he says very clearly, you know what? Language like globalized intifada. I understand why my Jewish neighbors, my Jewish friends are frightful, are frightful of that language. And he says very clearly, it is not language I will use as a leader in this city and I will make it my priority.
priority to fight anti-Semitism and to invest in everything that we need to do to protect Jewish New Yorkers. He said that then in that response and he said it multiple times. It is important and I think that he's going to have to kind of muscle up to the bar in this moment and to put his best alpha self on display in order to please John Howard and
and to be a pugilist against Donald Trump. It's not about pleasing me. I'm teasing you, John. Patrick, I know you're teasing me, but I would just say, Dax wants a point of view from me. I would just say that it would be very easy to say there is no place for anti-Semitism on the left or the right. He has said that, John. Yes, he has. John, I'm sorry. I'm going to push hard. I believe that Zoran Mamdani
I have a lot of things that I disagree with Zoran Bamdani on. And I was somebody who has, as you know, has been very, very critical of the recklessness of the left anti-Semitism. But I'm going to tell you something, John. As somebody who's worked at this for a really long time, I remember working for a guy named David Dinkins who stood in front of the New York Coliseum to bar Louis Farrakhan and got death threats from Black Muslims in 1988. And then when he ran for mayor in 1989, he was accused
by a lot of leaders, Jewish leaders in this town, being anti-Semitic. This is not a new thing in our politics. I will tell you, Zoran Magdani multiple times has said there is no place for anti-Semitism in our country, in our city, and in our politics. And he said that he will protect Jewish New Yorkers from that. He is also, in my opinion, I think it took him far too long to acknowledge that
The fear and the pain of a lot of Jewish New Yorkers coming off of October 7th. I think that is a value. I think that is a correct criticism of him. But I think it's dead wrong to say that this person has not denounced anti-Semitism. It's just not right.
Well, this conversation is going to continue. It's a fascinating time in our politics. I suspect this young man, whether he gets nominated or not, is going to be a force in New York Democratic politics, perhaps in national Democratic politics. This conversation is going to continue as soon as this podcast is over because Patrick's going to call and yell at me. Love you, John. It's going to continue.
I'm going to have to listen to Patrick's going to be in my ear for the next half an hour. Right conversation, right debate, and access, right? At the end of the day, it's affordability, affordability, affordability. Alyssa Slotkin and Zoran Mamdani, two very different kinds of Democrats, can meet on that. Converging on that point. The Pope of the Democratic Party just spoke. Patrick.
Patrick Gaspard. Love you, Jack. Love you, Jack. It's great to be with you, brother. So good to see you. When I say a legend in New York politics, that was not an exaggeration. He truly is. And also the only man in New York today who's not sweating. I don't understand how you're talking about keeping your cool. There's not even a bead of sweat on the man's head. It's a hundred and some degrees there. Because I'm amongst friends. Well, he went through this...
process of Hacks on Tap, cool as a cucumber. Cool as the other side of the pillow, as Stuart Scott would say. And we did bag the mailbag again this week because we had two guests. But remember, we want to hear from you. If you have questions, send them to hacksontap at gmail.com.
And if you we'd love to hear your voices. And if you want to just leave a question on our voicemail, here's the number. 773-389-4471. I'll repeat it because who can remember that? 773-389-4471.
Thank God Mike Murphy can remember it. Jesus, my God. That's Mike, like AI Mike back from the, speaking to us from the great beyond. He wants to be heard from every week. So we, we give him, we give him this official role. Thanks to you, Patrick. Thanks to Senator Alyssa Slotkin. Thanks to you, John, and all of you. And we'll see you again next week. Hack it up, David. Hack it up like a madman.
*music*