Groundwork & Gruntwork (with Steve Israel)
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Hey, pull up a chair. It's Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod and Mike Murphy. I'm proud to be a part of this administration. We're not stopping. I don't care what the judges think. I don't care what the left thinks. We're coming. All right, they're coming. That's Tom Holman. They're coming for you, Axelrod. You're on the list.

I'm sure after this podcast, that'll be true. Tom Homan, who's the immigration czar of the Trump administration, after a judge questioned the snatching up of hundreds of Venezuelans and spiriting them off to El Salvador. Murphy, there's a lot to discuss today, and we need somebody extra sharp.

But all we could come up with is Steve Israel. I know, and we were going alphabetical, too. We've got the coolest cat from Congress, I'll say here. There you go. Not only did he serve the great people of Long Island, thankless work in my view, having worked on campaigns there, but he did it for years, ran the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee to great success, and being a renaissance man.

Yeah. Runs a bookstore called Theodore's out there, which is a leading light, a high lantern of civilization in these dark and troubled times. So, Steve, thank you for joining us today. Well, even with David's snarky introduction, I'm happy to be with you. I knew that Murphy was going to clean up on aisle nine so I could do that. But listen, let's get to the... There's a lot... You know, it's crazy with the zone being flooded every day. There's...

We really do, Murphy, maybe need to do this every single day, the way these things are going. Yeah, from Portugal. But go ahead. So Trump quietly on Friday signs an executive order invoking the Alien Enemies Act of 1798. And for those of you—Steve Israel knows this because he's a Renaissance man, as you know—

as you said, but the act gives the government the ability to expel non-citizens without any intervention by immigration or federal courts. And it was meant for wartime. The last time it was invoked in, it was in world war two. Yeah. And I think it's based in the wisdom of the late 18th century too, because, you know, damn foreigners. Now, by the way, I,

Put me with Trump on, you know, real aliens, okay? I don't want no nine-legged weirdos roaming around the street. But this is what they're doing is they've got a couple of guys from second-rate law schools combing the books to find everything they can use as a pretext to

uh to stretch presidential power as far as possible and then wait for judges to say something but to quote holman yeah who cares if they do i mean that's this guy is in law enforcement and he's talking like a thug yeah um you know we have an immigration problem but this is this is an overreach it's crazy it's reckless etc let's listen to trump

on why he felt like this was warranted under the aforementioned act. People from mental institutions, that's an invasion. They invaded our country. So this isn't, in that sense, this is war.

In many respects, it's more dangerous than war because, you know, in war, they have uniforms. You know who you're shooting at. You know who you're going after. These are people that came out there walking on the streets. Okay, so he's basically saying that these Venezuelan street gangs are invaders and therefore can be repelled. Steve, you're a politician recovering, but you're still a politician. You never really get over it. And you can sort of...

The one issue on which his numbers are not underwater is immigration. People like the tough on immigration thing. They haven't hit the deportation numbers they wanted. You know, they promised this mass deportation. It hasn't happened. The economy is shaky. Their poll numbers are underwater on the economy and inflation. So this is a fight that they they want.

to have. I mean, isn't that the politics behind this? Let's light this Roman candle. You are exactly right, David. Look, let me make a ruthless political point, if I may. Excellent. We love those. You like that. Go for it. The only way that we can restore any semblance of checks and balances and stop Trump from going further than he has gone is to win the midterm elections in the House of Representatives. That's it. We have one swing at the bat.

And so we've got to understand what the real battlefield is. And the real battlefield is about 18 house districts that are toss-ups. I've got to say, the notion of deporting criminal gang members is supported in those 18 districts. It's popular. Well, I think it probably in lots of the country is popular. Correct.

The thing that makes this we're going to get to, believe me, we're not going to have you here, the biggest expert on midterm elections in the world and not talk about that and the and the saga of the Democratic Party. But just on this point, I.

It is the they're interestingly, they're picking a fight with the federal courts. A judge told them that they could not ship these folks out. And if they were shipping them out, they should stop the flights and turn them around. They they they, you know, they claim they were in international water. So he didn't have authority. The authority was over them.

But they know that they are starting in a whole bunch of areas, fights with the courts and they're edging closer and closer, may have crossed here defying the courts, but defying the courts on issues that have probably broad interests.

Broad popularity. Right. I mean, that's the hacky move right there, which is have the issue. Forget about the policy. The Democrats, of course, will immediately want to debate the Fourth Circuit, the Eighth Circuit, which people think they're talking about electricians. Well, and the rights of the gang members. Right. Well, exactly.

Well, they just do the case of the week alleged, you know, this guy chopped off the head of five kindergartners and now he's living in an air conditioned palace in Santa Monica and the Democrats want to keep them there. And that that on the basic political level, it's the only winning fight they have right now.

So I think they're glued to it. Look, I completely agree. That's their playbook, not only to defy judges, but they're vilifying judges. I mean, Trump called out this judge and said he was part of the lunatic left or something of that of that nature. But look, here's the thing. Put the political argument aside for a moment. You know, my advice to my Republican friends has been this.

I understand that politics has a tendency to snap back and forth, particularly in presidential elections. And man, they're giving a future democratic administration, lots of precedent to use the same arguments. McConnell makes this argument. Yeah, you're totally right. Steve. I talked to groups of Republicans. I always, I talked to a bunch of them in Texas and, uh, in January. And, and what I said was, look, you know, a lot of folks here support Donald Trump. God bless you. That's, that's your right. And, uh,

But you've got to think about the fact that all of these norms and rules and laws and institutions that he's blowing up or is planning to blow up, the next president is now going to have the same authority. That's exactly right. And, you know, it may not be someone you like so well.

So, but there's no doubt. I mean, you know, the expulsion of or the detention of this Columbia University protest leader, Mahmoud Khalil, the student who led the protests against the war in Gaza, was, you know, he's a legal expert.

has a green card. He's here legally legal resident. He was snarfed up and sent down and is being held in detention in Louisiana. It's not at all clear that the, that that is, was a, a constitutionally legal thing that they did, but they're happy to have that fight. And the question, you know, I'm just making the same point. They are, you know, they're going after elite universities, uh,

Easy targets, you know, with their base. Cutting funds, $400 billion cut in Columbia's funds. Columbia University. And look, there has been trouble at Columbia. I mean, the anti-Semitism, everything is extremely legit and real. But like everything, every problem they have is a sledgehammer, and often they miss the effective target. I think the bigger question, though, because, you know, we go through the outrages. We'll be here three days.

is just to get to the hackiness of this. So they have a winning argument in their culture war stuff, particularly around immigration. And, you know, they use DEI as kind of a skeleton key. But if you back up, the offer he made was the economy. Is this enough politically? Yes.

to get them out of what is increasingly quicksand on the economy. And I think over time they don't. Steve wrote a great op-ed in The Hill about a week ago, you know, saying Democrats interrupt your panic for a minute to look at the big picture, which is our looming battles over time Democrats can win. Right now they don't have a lot of power.

They have a noise machine. And let me know, Steve, if I'm misrepresenting your argument. But calibrate the noise machine. Carville makes a similar argument to the midterms, the next battle you can win. You know, the calendar is a weapon you need to think about strategically. That is the piece I wrote. I would just say this on...

Trump's brilliance, he's flooding the zone on immigration and defying judges. And guess what we're not talking about? Right. And guess what we're not talking about? Inflation. We're not talking about the fact that all his promises to fix the economy on day one, we're now going to day 60. And he's asking for more time and saying that the American people should be prepared to take some pain. Okay.

And things are going largely in the in the wrong direction. So my point is, we should not allow him to shift the narrative where he wins. You've got to keep the narrative on where he's losing. Right. Democrats need to say the good news is illegal immigrants are fleeing the country because they can't afford eggs.

I'm joking, of course. Yeah. I want to return to some of the things that he's doing because I think they have both political and long term implications that that that we can't just gloss over. But since we're at on the Democrats, Steve, we had this big blow up last week.

The Senate Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer, a longtime associate of yours from the state of New York, had for the longest time said he was going to resist the Republican idea of a continuing resolution instead of a budget.

So six months, the thing they sent included some deep cuts on things that are important to not just to Democrats, but to people relative to health care. We should just clarify. So this is a way to not shut down the government and buy time, which is the way they normally let's punt six months. Here's a continuing resolution with a few of our policy things stuck in. We dare you to stop it.

because then a shutdown would be your fault. That was the Republican plan. And Schumer and Schumer had said for the longest time that Democrats were going to resist that. I think he was gambling that the house Republicans couldn't pass something. Uh, and they sent it to the Senate. And then, uh, in the final 24 hours, he turned around on it and brought with him nine other votes and, uh, uh, defeated, uh, filibuster. And, uh,

And here we are. That bill was signed. Let's before Steve, I want you to comment on it, but let's listen to what Schumer, how Schumer explained his decision. In our first conversation, you said you had a plan going forward to fight Republicans. But then only a few days later, it looks like your own party is in a civil war. Do you think that you made the wrong choice? Let me say this. I

I don't. I think it was a very, very difficult decision between two bad options, a partisan Republican CR and a shutdown that Musk and Trump wanted.

For me, the shutdown of the government would just be devastating and far worse than the Republican CR. Let me explain. A shutdown would shut down all government agencies and it would solely be up to Trump and Doge and Musk what to open again because they could determine what was essential. So their goal of shutting down, of decimating the whole

The whole federal government of cutting agency after agency after agency would occur under a shutdown. So, Steve, he's not wrong that that would have been the that that, you know, I actually saw some someone sent me some memos that were written for Bill Clinton back in the 90s about the authority that the executive could have.

exert if in a shutdown, he's not wrong. But even if he arrived at the right position, I mean,

Wasn't this badly handled? You know, look, I don't think that Democrats are at the point, David, where there are no good and neat and orderly options. They have to take the least bad option. And that's what happened last week. Do you believe he took the least bad option? I do. And here and here's why. I understand the anger and the emotion. I understand that this is an existential time and perilous time for the nation and the party.

But it is time to end this argument over our leadership. The national narrative. Here's specifically why I think Schumer did what had to be done.

as difficult as it is. The national narrative until last week was Doge and Medicaid cuts, and it was finally penetrating. Trump's favorabilities started to slip quicker than they had in the past. And now what have we done? We have turned this into a national narrative that Democrats are divided and need new leadership. Had Schumer voted to shut down the government,

We wouldn't even be talking about Medicaid up to $800 billion in cuts. We wouldn't be talking about Social Security's Ponzi scheme. We would be talking about the Schumer shutdown. That would be the narrative. I've lived through those shutdowns as a member of the House Democratic leadership. They suck. And they always come back for some reason to it's the Democrats' fault, even when it's not.

And so Schumer did the right thing. Well, but they're a little haunted by when Newt did it, the Republicans caught hell. So, you know, they're the older guys who lived through it. You know, the wiser guys, I'll say, Steve. The Republicans did it on the theory Clinton would be blamed. And kind of everybody was blamed. Nobody got out of a plane. But it sure was not the wonder weapon that Newt and ours thought it would be back in the 90s. So I'm torn because...

Because we're also at a moment in time where a fighting Democratic Party would have a unifying effect. And it's very fertile to have the Dems love to break into these things. So I'm lucky I didn't have to make the vote as a Dem, a world that would never exist. But I kind of get both sides of it. But I would have been tempted to cry havoc and let slip.

Let me play a clip from your cousin, Chris Murphy, the senator from Connecticut, because he took a different view. I mean, I don't think anybody's having that conversation right now. What's important is that we meet this moment. And what I'm telling you is that

If we continue to observe norms, if we continue to engage in business as usual, this democracy could be gone. I don't think we have a year to save American democracy. I think the way the president is acting,

using law enforcement to target dissidents, harassing TV stations and radio stations that criticize him, endorsing political violence puts our democracy at immediate risk. So if you are a Democrat in the Senate or in the House, you have to start acting with urgency. And that is the conversation that we have to start having inside our caucus.

We Murphys are a war-like people, as you can tell from Chris there. David, how would you have voted? You're the new senator from Illinois. What would you have done? I think Schumer did the right thing in the worst possible way because he should have set this discussion up long before 24 hours before the vote. He should have set up the stakes. No one even knows what that CR was about. I mean, no one even, if you want to advance as Steve Israel suggests,

the depth of the kinds of things that the Republicans want to do relative to programs that touch people's lives in a positive way, then let people know that. If you want, you know, let them know that they put in provisions that basically handed to the present authorities of the

of the Congress to limit tariffs, tariffs. I mean, he did not define any. I agree. It was murky. It looked like, nor did he explain, nor did he explain, uh, that in fact, yes, if, if there had been a shutdown Trump and, and, uh,

And Musk would have had more authority than they do right now. Yeah, they would have run wild. I think you kind of got that part of it out. But let me I'm going to throw it to Steve to be the final word on this after making one point for it to keep the conversation spicy because I'm very torrent.

I do think, and we talked about this with Doug Sosnick last week, the best thing that can happen to the Democrats over time is the wrong track number goes up. And a shutdown is good, though there's a human cost, for pushing the wrong track number up. That's why I would have been pretty tempted to let it burn if I were a Democrat. I think it comes down to this. Elon Musk and Donald Trump owned these massive federal layoffs recently.

taking a bulldozer of the federal government, had Chuck Schumer shut the government down, the Republicans would have mucked that up and people would have said, well, pox on both their houses. Yeah, Musk did what he did, but now Schumer has actually shut the thing down. And I don't think that that is an advantage for Democrats in terms of messaging. Okay, gentlemen, we will be back in a minute, but we have to pay a few bills.

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I mean, my question to Murphy, and I wasn't quite clear on it, was what would his strategy have been relative to the shutdown? How would it play out, and how would it end, and what happens to the collateral damage in between? And I hadn't heard anybody articulate that. Well, I have an idea. I'm not talking about you. I was talking about the other Murphy. Yeah, Chris Murphy, but I'll speak for him because we all hang together. I think the Dems should have had an alternate strategy.

The CR that put the handcuffs on Musk and been willing to fight a shutdown over it. So it became a binary choice. But they couldn't get a vote on it, Mike. I mean, you know, when you're in the minority, you don't have that many tools. I will say this. Remember. But you fight the idea and, you know, learn the damn one up. I mean, that would, I think, been the best target tactic.

But let's remember, we're back to this conversation on September 30th. And so we've kept the government open until September 30th. We're right back to where we are now. And so we do have an opportunity to re-litigate this issue in perhaps a more favorable environment when the wrong track numbers are going up. Yeah, that's a good point. And hopefully they learn and have a plan to bring the right crescendo, which you now have

months to build to. But Steve, let me, let me, let's go past the subject of last week, which, you know, the way this thing is rolling last week seems like last year because things are happening so quickly. But one thing that, that is real is that the party does not,

I mean, the NBC had a poll on Sunday. Democratic the Democratic Party was at its lowest standing in the history of the NBC poll. And you've lived through some nadirs in the past. So, you know, that's really saying something. I was more more irritated.

I was more irritated by I thought Schumer's answer was reasonable, though, like I said, I thought his execution was bad on this particular issue. But what really got me was this discussion about the problems of the Democratic Party and how they get resolved. And I hear a little trace of it in what you said earlier.

before, although I never get irritated with you. So let's listen to that bite of Schumer on how Democrats win back the working class that they believe they are speaking for. So what happened? Because you asked, that's your question. We think we always cared. I'm sorry. We always cared about the working people. But in the last few years, while we did a lot for working people, here's what we didn't do. We didn't tell people about it.

We thought just by legislating, people would know about it. They don't. So his basic message is we are the party of the working class. They just don't know it. They just don't know all the good things we do. Well, they're too busy with their bigotry to read the New York Times and learn about our incredible accomplishments. It's the Belgian endive thing again. This was a...

this was an interview in the New York times. He went on to say the promise we didn't know about this thing called social media.

And now I've learned about this thing called social media. The kids in the interweb, they're up to something. And I've assigned some of the young members of my caucus, Cory Booker and Tina Smith, to take charge of social media. And now we're really going to know. We know how to communicate now. Yeah, look out, WhatsApp, we're coming. And Steve...

I'm telling you, man, the problem is deeper than that. Oh, I don't disagree with you. It reminds me of the great old Bob Dole joke when he was running for president. Senator, what are you going to do about term limits? Said, I've got a task force. I put Strom Thurmond in charge. He's going to get back to me in a few terms. Well, look, guys, we do not need to reinvent the wheel. There's a playbook on how you appeal to voters. Yeah, ask AOC. No, ask Jared Golden in Maine.

Ask Marie Glusenkamp Perez in Washington. Yeah, she is a star. Ask Marcy Kaptur in Ohio. Ask Angie Craig in Minnesota. There are Democrats, and I'm always so fascinated by this argument that Democrats don't have a message. We have a message. It's just that we don't pay attention to the one that works. And the one that works is prosecuted in those Trump districts.

Exactly. All the people you're talking about come from areas where they actually, first of all, they are more of the working class, but they come from areas that are very much the districts that Democrats have lost ground in. And they speak to their...

Yeah, well, they're trying to survive. You know, they're adapting. More than that, they listen to their constituents. You forgive me, Murphy, and our listeners forgive me, but in order to advance the argument, I'm going to make one that I've made here many times before, Steve. The Democrats have become a smarty-pants urban...

They don't come to listen. They don't come with respect.

There is an implied disdain for the great unwashed. And it is felt. Well, that's the culture war. That's back to the core democratic thing. Trump has exploited that. And it's really, really, I think when I hear Schumer.

I hear a guy who is thoroughly Washington. You know, Gary Hart once said to me, Washington's always the last to get the news. That was an example of it. And if that is how we're going to move, is that if that's how Democrats are going to move forward, they're going to they're going to have a harder time recovering than just Trump's screw up. Well, the answer is obvious. We need a savvy member from Long Island, the primary Schumer. It's time for some new damn leadership. Not not going to

happen, nor should it. But I will tell you, you mentioned Long Island. You guys want a laboratory of success in politics? Take a look at Long Island. It was blue. Then it shifted to the red. And then people like Tom Suozzi, my successor in the House, Laura Gillen, who flipped the district, they understood how you message to people's innate anxieties, what they're talking about at the diners on Long Island. They would not allow themselves to get outflanked on immigration. I love, I mean,

You talk about bold. Tom Suarez's opponent had a press conference screaming about his record on immigration, and he showed up to the press conference. That's what Democrats need to do. Yeah, well, that's the Long Island way. You have to have a warrior mentality. You've got to have sharp elbows, guys. And it works in as much on Long Island as it does in Minnesota and Washington state and other areas. We have to sharpen our elbows. Well, let me make an argument.

This is what Brother Carville would say, and we again got into it last week with Sosnick, which is all this stuff is right, but it's not a two-way fight right now. It's a one-way fight, and Trump is hurting himself over time, breaking his key offer on the economy. So follow the words, and this would be my version of it, of the great General Zhukov and retreat into the Russian steppe and let them continue to extend and eventually freeze to death because the winner is a better weapon than bullets.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in that for the Dems. Yes, I think there's wisdom to a point, but it also excuses Democrats from doing the kind of introspection and of understanding why it is that there's... Well, fair enough, but are they capable of that? Look at the DNC. It hasn't changed. It threw a party to congratulate the old stuff. If they're not capable of that, they lost 90% of the counties in this country...

in 2024. So I'm saying I agree with Steve Israel. The names he's mentioned are people who I would look to. I think that their voice in the party, you know, the Democratic Party is good at speaking to working class people. It's not it's just not good at listening to them. Well, the listening affects the speech.

Those folks know how to listen. The Dems always fall for culture war traps. I got to say, I got to say that I think it goes deeper than even that. The Democrats are doing the stuff that people don't read about or

or seeing their social media. It's the grunt work of winning an election. It's recruiting the next Swazi, recruiting the next Gillen, recruiting the next Jared Golden or Angie Craig. They right now at shared the D triple C, you guys know this right now, the best thing Democrats can be doing institutionally is building out infrastructure, modernizing the data. I know it's so boring, but modernizing the voter files, which is what the DNC thing should have been about. And then it be, it just became a kind of, uh,

You know, it did become sort of a woke fest. But Steve, it's but let me just say one thing to both you guys. It is more than just tactical. There is a reason why working class people feel the way they do. It isn't because they're

It isn't, you know, you can, a lot of Democrats write it off to as much as Mike says. Yeah, that it's like it's racism, it's ignorance, it's so on. It's like their lives are hard because the system really is rigged against them in many ways. Comrade, I'm with you, but.

Here's the problem, and this is what you two practical politicians can solve for America right now. How do you do it in the glorified sociology department faculty lounge that is the Democratic Party? How do you align them? Nobody's in charge. The most powerful two people, one of them's a cranky old guy from New York who thinks it's, you know...

1975. I mean, how do you do it? The IP is there, but how? My answer is screw the faculty lounge. I don't really care about the faculty lounge. I care about if you're the party of working people, then understand what working people are going through and don't nibble at the margins. I agree on the formula, Doc.

Yeah, but I'm a practical guy in practical politics. So how do you do it? I look at the DTRIP, your old stomping ground, Steve. And I can say from the other side of the trenches, you guys knew how to work a machine gun back in your era. I'm still carrying a little shrapnel from those wars. The new chairman got in, and I can't believe all the email I've gotten from cranky Democratic consultants of great experience. And they said, well, the best thing we got going here is we're kind of making sure that most of our consulting contracts are DEI-driven.

You know, so when we figure out who to run an election in a certain place, we go to, you know, DNA code rather than experience and record. It looked to me like a mini version of the DNC. Now, maybe I'm being unfair to the new chair, but you're right. The D trip is the front line. It's the Manhattan Project for next year. It's everything.

And I can tell you, I can tell you. Okay. You're a trusted source on this, America, so listen up. I talked to, it's the same chair. Susan DelBene was the chair and continues to be the chair of the DTRIP. I can tell you guys that

Fundamentals matter in winning elections, and the fundamentals are in a two-year cycle going into a midterm. You start by focusing on recruiting and recruiting only, and that's what they're doing. You build out and modernize your voter files, which were disappointing in the last cycle.

You build out your fundraising network. They're doing the unglamorous grunt work, groundwork of politics, which will win the midterm elections. We only have three seats and you guys are hacks. You know, the president's party hardly ever wins in seats in the midterm. Oh, no, I would bet money. It's the size of the victim. So.

Be strategic. Let's get over this argument. Let's get over this argument over who the leadership should be. I get it. Let's shut down that argument and talk about winning. I know this is hacks on tap and you guys are too. Uh, and I say this as a compliment to, to the greatest, uh,

But what I'm telling you is what's going on out there is bigger than what we're accustomed to. There is a sense of anger about the status quo. And one of the things that Trump has done, I think, fairly effectively is that he keeps putting Democrats in a position of looking like they are fighting for the status quo.

And I think Democrats have to offer really big and meaningful ideas to sort of tilt the to even to level the playing field again. And that's what people are are looking for. So, you know, those people you speak to, you're speaking about, Steve, I think would agree with what I'm saying. You know, people just don't think like they don't believe that.

that the system is working on their behalf. And so when you go out and say, we want to preserve the system that Trump is trying to rip up, that is a losing argument. Well, again, that's the culture war. Play the Republicans. They box them in on unpopular, simple stuff, and they defend it. And the Republicans score points. Okay, then let's take a break right here.

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Steve, talk about the midterms in more granular detail. You're right. No party, no party in the White House has won seats in the midterm, I think, since 2002 when George W. Bush did. Six seats. Yeah, there's one outlier, but only one. That was it. And before that, 1948 for some reason, but or sometime in the 1940s. But you're right. A handful of times in the past century. And that's because midterms are a referendum on the president. Right.

OK, so so talk about the districts. There are 16 districts where Democrats are holding seats that Trump in districts. Correct. One, I think that there are a handful that are the other way around where a Republican one in a district that Harris carried.

just talk about the sort of math of it and how you think this thing is rolling out. So right now, Democrats need three to four seats in order to win back the majority. The number is going to change based on who's absent, who may pass away, who may retire. And by the way,

If you want a sense of what's going to happen in the midterms, look at early retirements. If you see a large number of Republican House members retiring, you know it's going to be brutal. If you see a large number of Democrats retiring, take a look at that. Yeah, because we should just footnote this. Yes. What you have to understand, dear listener, about the House is in the minority, you have absolutely no power. You're a potted plant.

So it's much more fun to be in the majority. So if Republicans start diving, they're like, well, I don't want to sit there in a minority. This is ridiculous. Those conversations will begin around the end of the year, around Christmas. That's when I was the chair of DTRIP. I hated Christmas. I was the Grinch because I knew my members were going home, talking to their families and saying, ah, screw it. I'm not going back. So three to four seats. Right now, there are 10 Democratic toss-ups, eight Republican toss-ups.

So every decision, every strategic and tactical decision the Democrats make must be put through one filter and one filter only. How does this help?

or hurt us taking three to four seats. And I'm talking about on the Republican side, you have people like Dave Schweikert in Arizona, Miller Meeks in Iowa, Scott Perry in Pennsylvania. Eight of those Republicans are very tight races. And on the Democratic side, we mentioned Jared Golden and Marie Glusenkamp-Perez and Laura Gillen, Kaptur. They're a

10 of them. So what a battlefield. So my advice to folks who look at every single decision and press release and post every hour in this slot machine cadence of news and agonize over it, stay focused on the long term, stay focused on those 18 seats and do what you must within those 18 seats. And let me say that the reason that is so significant is Trump is a

We have never actually seen any president try and exert the power and the coercion that Trump has in knocking out the sort of guardrails and sources of accountability. And I wanted to raise this with you guys because—

You know, you can treat them as one offs, but you have to put them together. Trump was at the Justice Department last week and he had a long tirade about his enemies. And essentially, it seemed like giving the Justice Department a mission to go after them. He said this about he said this about the media. And I believe that CNN and MSDNC.

who literally write 97.6% bad about me are political arms of the Democrat Party. And in my opinion, they're really corrupt and they're illegal. What they do is illegal. So what does that mean to a bunch of prosecutors at the Justice Department? When the President of the United States comes to the Justice Department and says these networks are illegal,

And, you know, around that are lawsuits that are being filed, you know, by him as an individual. We've talked about that before. So, well, the good news is you finally may do a little time for your many crimes over the years. But.

The serious answer is, I think the way that— That's not even funny at this point, but go ahead. Well, yeah, I'll visit you. You'll be right there with me, brother. No, the truth is, I'll be in a worse cell. My punishment will be this North Korean thing where they throw me in a cell with you alone for two years. Yeah, no, no, that would be very grim.

I think the professionals will say, well, that's all crazy, of course, but we're going to have to wander around and write up some briefs and do something to save our jobs, but slow walk the hell out of this. But there will be an oddball careerist who will say, sure, Mr. President, and, you know, there could be a phony something because he can't invent what's illegal. I mean, I don't go to the pure panic on this. The FCC is going after...

going after, aggressively going after outlets that they feel... Yeah, but if I were running the MSNBC spinoff, I would love that.

That's going to be ratings gold, radio liberty. I think you're minimizing what's going on here. The second thing that's going to happen is in the next few weeks, there'll be a new ownership at TikTok. And I think that's going to be very, very interesting because I agree that is a bigger problem. Trump loves what Musk has done with with Trump.

with Twitter, uh, turn has turned that into sort of, uh, his organ. And we don't know what the algorithm there does, but it clearly had something has happened at, uh, at X. The Musk thing is not so good in the marketplace. He's ruining Tesla. They're in free fall around the world, you know, and X too. I mean, my, my point is all this stuff has pushback. TikTok, which is the way most young people get information. Now, Steve Israel, uh,

The so there's one area where media, traditional media outlets are being being targeted. And some of these alternative outlets that have become more and more powerful are now Trump leaning, you know, the state media in some ways. And that.

That has to be a big concern. I mean, Schumer talked about communicating. That's that's part of the mix here. Well, you know, this is all out of the 2025 agenda, which Trump pretended not to be aware of. But it turns out he's, you know, page by page. And this is a part of a concerted effort to purge the federal government.

of anyone who will question Trump and replace the federal government with loyalists and then amplify in the media. And I think knock out the media as a source of accountability. Knock out any dissent. And this is what Trump, Trump is learning the lessons of what went wrong for him in the last administration. There's been a lot on this.

What he believes went wrong for him in the last administration is that he tolerated dissenters. He tolerated people like Mattis and McMaster. He tolerated people who had a fidelity to the Constitution and not Donald Trump. And so Trump 2.0 has not permitted that kind of adult into the room. Right. They're all gone. It's enablers. He is unrestrained.

He has purged them and is purging deeper. Can I just say one other thing on this? I'll tell you what really worries me. As much as the attacks on a free press, I served on the Appropriations Defense Committee and Armed Services. It's what he's doing to the military. I mean, he just whoever went after the heads of the military academies.

Yeah, because they were independent. They you know, they wanted to just create a deeper investment in education for our warriors. He's replaced them with ideologues who are many of whom are completely unqualified, loyal to him. He's replacing career officers in the Pentagon, loyal to him, not as a commander in chief, but loyal to him as.

As a as the political person and to his and to his ideology. And that's where I think it gets really dangerous. So he knocked out all the inspectors general or many of the inspectors general who were, you know, independent sort of watchdogs over federal agencies. He now is challenging the authority of the courts to to over the over over the administration and the federal federalists.

federal agencies that he runs. He's going after law firms in a way that we've never seen before. Uh, you know, banning law firms from federal buildings, uh, law firms who he has political beefs with. Uh, and he promises there can be 15 more of them. Uh, he, he went after a couple of big ones. He's going after 15 more of them. I can tell you just talking to law firm, uh, people in law firms around the country there, uh,

terrified and worried about taking on cases that he might just like. Basically, he is trying to shoot out all the lights and cameras that we have in place to shine into dark corners. I don't know.

I don't know if it's that. I mean, that's the effect of it. I agree. I think it's just pure childish grievance. Well, there's certainly a big dose of that. Yeah, yeah. I think he's indulging himself. I'm not sure it's a master strategy. It's all instinctual of Trump. All during that campaign, Trump said, talked about his role model, essentially, a guy he hoisted on a pedestal, Viktor Orban of Hungary. Right.

And this is all of the things he's doing with the courts, with the media.

you know, with lawyers. These are all out of the Orban playbook. I don't disagree. It's a pattern of authoritarianism, but I, I want to get back to the hacky stuff for a minute if we can. So Steve, you're, you know, just to revisit the midterms. And by the way, I plug, keep an eye on that John James seat in the 10th in Michigan. That's an auto district. The tariffs go through. It's only a play. He's running for governor. It's an open seat. But again,

You've been in the congressional world. Let's say history patterns continue.

and the Dems do win control of the House by high single digits, maybe double digits. One, I think they ought to start a narrative now. So if there's a message in all that, other than we recruited good candidates in the process. But two, how does life change for Donald Trump with the Republican Senate remaining but a Democratic House? Obviously, a probes, the checkbook becomes a big factor. But paint a picture of what

The 2.0 of this fight looks like after the midterms, if the Democrats take control of the House for, you know, the pluses and minuses, strengths and weaknesses. In that scenario, when the Senate, assuming the Democrats don't take control, Trump continues to have a bit of a rubber stamp on all of his nominations and that that continues to be problematic. Particularly Supreme Court. Yeah. Personnel stays the same unless people like Susan Collins, Contellus,

two Republicans in kind of purple states read the leaves of the midterms and realize they've got to show some independence. They've got to step back from Trump to survive.

But barring that, the Senate will continue to rubber stamp Trump on his nominations. Steve, aren't they up this till and Collins? So they're terrified of. Yeah, that's that's both of them. They're in a vice. Both could be in a vice. There's there's no question. But the midterms, you know, the the the final where the midterms land will very much influence the environment on both sides in the Senate and the House.

In the House, my advice to the Democrats, to the extent that they even care about my advice at this point, is if they take the majority, focus on three issues in alphabetical order and in order of strategic imperative. You put them in alphabetical order. You're making it easy for them to follow along here. It's economy, economy, economy.

Just focus on people's economic anxieties. We are in a unique convergence on immigration, globalization, automation, AI. This is what's fueling people's innate anxieties. I get it. I understand it. Tap into it and don't be distracted by stuff that independent voters don't

And swing districts aren't talking about it, their dining room tables or the kitchen tables. Yeah, right. Listen, I couldn't agree with you more. That's really good advice and good mastery of the alphabet, too. Thank you. I had to practice that one. Yeah. Yeah. They just have to make sure the D isn't to fund the police. But I agree. Alphabetize it. Simple, simple, simple. Okay. Let's take a break right here for a word from our sponsor. We'll be right back.

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All right. If you have a question for the Hacks, all you got to do is email us at hacksontap at gmail.com, hacksontap at gmail.com. Senator Schumer, that's called email. It's something the kids use, like social media. Or you can record a voice memo on your smartphone and send us that. But keep it short. We are the windbags here. You ask the questions and use your name. Or finally...

Call our secret off-track betting slash voter registration center slash question line at 773-389-4471. I'll repeat it because who can remember that? 773-389-4471. All right, question one. David Axelrod, I think you got a hot one here for Steve Israel.

Yes, Steve, you bear all the scars of a man who spent 16 years in the United States Congress. Could you comment on the potential? This is Andrew asking, could you comment on the potential political impacts of Republicans being advised to pull back from town hall events? And how would you advise Democrats to respond to this, if at all? Yeah, Andrew's question has created some unpleasant flashbacks in my mind to the town meetings I had.

Mine as well, by the way. And mine too. I got thrown out of a town hall with the congressman in Long Island One with Bill Kearney back in the early 80s. There you go. I used to have these town meetings in sleepy Long Island. It would be like six constituents because we served donuts. And then it went to 3,000.

in a town hall on the Affordable Care Act, David Axelrod, thank you very much, that where the police literally had to escort me out of my own town meeting. Should you be, should you, the question, should you be serving donuts at a town hall about health care?

I don't know. Okay, probably. Maybe that's what went wrong. In any event, look, we know one thing. At a town meeting in a fraught political environment, anything you say can and will be used against you. It is a made-for-television moment. And what's happening now with Republican town halls...

is that the eruptions are occurring in their own red districts. Congresswoman Harriet Hageman had a town hall in Wyoming. You can't get redder than that. And one guy stood up and said he was concerned about the fact that he was a retired minor. They just shut down. Elon Musk just shut down the local safety and health

office for minors. People stood up and said they're concerned with this meat axe approach to Medicaid. This is why Republicans are telling their members not to do these things. Stay away. Now, what's interesting, talk about sharp elbows. You know what the Democrats are doing?

They're holding their town meetings in Republican districts. So you've got Democrats who are flooding those vulnerable zones, drawing the contrast and jabbing elbows by having their own town meetings in those areas. And I think it's brilliant. Yeah. And it's only going to get worse when they move forward with their tax bill. Yes. And the and the you know, and the choices become more.

clearer. And there, and you know, for the speakers doing what, frankly, we did at the time, we said, well, those are just plants, you know, they're there that we should, you know, Republican plants in these town hall meetings. And some of them may have been, but a lot of them were not. And, and I've, I've seen some of this video of these town hall meetings that,

These are authentic people here. They don't look like plants to me. I'll tell you, no, it's all real, and it's a tell. And I can tell you at the staff level, even in the house, the fear is rising.

Because they're like, well, it's fun to be in the Trump show and not get a primary, but we're done in two years. I wonder if the Aluminum Association is going to be hiring Republicans. So the fear has already started in the House conference at the staff level, because you know how congressional staff are, Steve. They're thinking about their member, and we can't hold a town hall, and the caseworkers are all getting screamed at on the phone. So it is a big tell about the midterm. We have talked about all the things that Trump is doing.

just as a political matter, uh, you know, we've said before he's, he's doing stuff and he's making stuff happen. It may all be cat. A lot of them may be catastrophic in the end, but he's, he's making stuff happen. And, uh,

And he is taking, you know, one of the things that is also above water in addition to immigration is the idea of cutting waste, fraud and abuse, which is something, you know, and the bureaucracy, which people feel, which people do support in theory.

until the implications of it are there. But back to the point I made before, because I want to emphasize it. Don't be the party of the status quo. This government needed an angioplasty. It just didn't need a heart attack.

And Democrats who care about government and what it does should be on the side of radical reform versus nihilism. Okay, I had my little sermon there. No, exactly. Trump has the big macro issues. People want the government to trim down, but I don't know if they want a crazy guy of hedge clippers to do it. You know, the more the debate becomes narrow, how it hurts you,

It starts working for the Democrats. We've tried to get rid of the Department of Education the Republicans have forever. Not because we hate education, because most of the spending is local and the money ought to go there. But the way there, it was hard enough to do the civilized way and the politics were always too rough.

And now they're doing it the uncivilized way, which compounds it. So Trump is a classic candidate doing candidate macro slogans, now trying to govern with them and hitting the speed bumps. On your point, when I went to the White House, I innocently asked the question, why do we need three different agencies dealing with trade?

Why don't we merge them into one operation? And Steve Israel, you can imagine the pushback on that. You know, that's extreme. Yeah. What? You know, congressman so and so chairs this committee of jurisdiction would be very unhappy about that. And this and that. And then, you know, I said, well, you know, we have the Department of Education and the Department of Labor and Labor and Education are so inextricably bound these days, education and training.

And labor, you know, wouldn't it be more efficient to kind of combine them and have kind of a 21st century? Are you kidding me? You know what the labor unions would do about that? And so, yeah, I understand how hard it is. And I think people intuitively sense that, that the bureaucracy defends itself. And so just another warning to Democrats, don't be the party of the status quo. People want government. They just want government that works for them and works efficiently and makes sense.

All right. Okay. For David from Kevin, what's your take on Mark Cuban as the Dems nominee in 2028? He seems like the total package, says Kevin. He's a billionaire, so he can self-fund. He's great on TV. He's got that cool vibe from being on Shark Tank with my old pal Kevin O'Leary. And

owning the Mavs. He's Mr. Sports. He's smart. Boy, this is a love letter. He seems to genuinely care about people, and we'll find out. And most importantly, he's a straight shooter rather than a double-talking Chicago politician. Assuming he wants the job, would the Dems be smart to embrace him?

Well, I mean, Kevin, it seems like you're leading me with the question. It seems like you have a, it seems like you have a point of view on this. Listen, Mark Cuban is a very smart guy and he is a, he's a, he's a very smart media guy. Uh,

As I read the description there, he's the total package. He's got his TV show. He's a billionaire. And it sounds really familiar. I've heard this plot line somewhere before. Here's my view on this. I think Mark, he's done some really good things, particularly in the pharmaceutical area. He certainly could run. Maybe that's the ultimate outsider is what people are going to be looking for.

I don't think people ever choose the replica of what they have. They don't say, I want a good version of Donald Trump. Let's have get someone like him. But, you know, rational and so on. No.

Yeah, yeah. No, no. I think people are going to be looking for the remedy to Trump. And it's not going to, I doubt it'll be another reality show businessman. I don't think that's the case. Yeah, 10% better or smarter. Yeah, I'm with you. People vote, they vote for what they think they didn't have.

Look, I think we need something different in 2028. We don't know what the environment will be like. But going back to your point, David, I think it's got to be somebody, whether it's Mark Cuban or someone else, it's got to be somebody with a message that is one of disruption, disrupting the status quo in a constructive way. And Mark would do that. There's no doubt about it. Yes, he would. Just untested. Yeah. It's also, I mean, Steve, you know this, David, you do.

These people have never been in politics before. It's like, hey, you're starring in Broadway tomorrow. Do a little dinner theater. Learn the trade. Yes, exactly. They're never that good at it. No, no. And on that point, and we've all worked on presidential races.

I don't think anybody, even people in public life, appreciate just how hard it is to run for president. You know, it's easy if you're, you know, an also ran and you never actually make it into the public.

you know, attention space. But if you're really competitive, the scrutiny from moment to moment to every comma and sentence and and the ferocity of the attacks, the better you do and so on. It is a gauntlet. And, you know, Mark Cuban has never run for anything.

So, you know, now owning a sports team has its own array of challenges in terms of criticism and so on. But this is different. I, you know, so I just think. Yeah, it looks great on paper. He'd be interesting. And I do think, you know, it's foolish to predict four years in advance what people are going to be or three years where people are going to be looking for. But I kind of think rather than looking for someone who is a version of Trump.

They will be looking for someone who may be challenging of the system, but it also looks like they can run. Yeah. People like to vote for what they think and perceive they did not get the last time. It's a replica of Rembrandt. We have different ways of saying it, but that's the energy of it. So it's going to be a pro from Dover next time.

unless the Dems nominate a left-wing sociologist again, which who knows? They're capable of it. All right, question for me. Jared says, as one of the 11 Gen Z listeners of the pod, yeah, Heilman, I heard that last episode.

I have to ask, what's the point anymore? Lots of my generation are at best skeptical of things even ever getting better here in America, thanks to Republicans not caring about anyone and Democrats being essentially impotent. Kind of hard to rally the youth vote if it's clear nobody cares about it.

That's a tough question. It's a fastball. And first of all, I didn't know we were up to 11 Gen Zers, so that's good. And I love hearing a Gen Z question as read by the aged and wisdom David Axelrod. It's like the God's honest truth. I have it on my screen, and the type is too small. So I really had to work my way through the question, which goes to the point, I guess.

Yeah, the kids are talking here. Well, one, Jared, thanks for listening. Two, you are the voice of your generation, because it's hard to see a lot to believe in in politics right now. It seems like the stupid party versus the evil party to me. But...

You forgot one key thing. Here's some more wisdom of the aged for you. Demography. You young voters, you bastards, over time, you become all voters. Because we old fogies, I'm talking about Axelrod here, I'm still a spry young man. We go to the great politics in the sky over...

over time. So whether you like it or not, you've got the power. You're more powerful than you think. You've got 20 elections for president left in you. I'm probably there in the single digits. So use the power. Don't hide under a rock and whine. Believe it or not, you guys in the generation coming after you and the one slightly in front of you, you're flying the plane.

So the worst thing you can do is give that up. So, you know, fight to use your power. Don't give it up because you've got it. Or bet on cynicism. That can pay off in the recent era. Well, you made a fortune on that. Me? Wait a minute. Let me find your client list here. Israel, give us the benediction here. The benediction. So I teach at Cornell University and...

I will tell you, I actually have deep and fundamental hope for the future. When I'm in the classroom at Cornell University, I think my generation of policymakers has done about as much damage to democracy as anyone can. But the generation following, most of them are critical thinkers.

They want to solve problems. They're not conflict entrepreneurs. And so I do believe that the next generation will be our salvation if they have the skills and the investments necessary to be effective. And then the other thing I would say is, you guys know I own a bookstore named after Theodore Roosevelt. And people come into my store all the time, Theodore's, and on the verge of tears, some in tears, fraught, agonized.

anxious, overwhelmed by the news. And they say, what do we do? How do we cope? And so I will take a page from Theodore Roosevelt, who said at another volatile moment, do what you can with what you have, where you are. That is what is going to make a difference. Do what you can with what you have, where you are. And that means plug into the midterm elections. In my view, I agree with everything Steve just said as the founder of the Institute of politics of the university of Chicago and

Every time I interact with students there, I leave more hopeful. It's the reason I do the work because they are skeptical, but they're not cynical and they want to change the world for the better. And, uh, they are unintimidated by the rate of change about technology and so on. Uh,

But we need to make sure that they have the tools they need moving forward. And that is a sacred mission. And they have the power to do it. All right. Thank you, guys. This was excellent. Steve, always great to hear you. David, excellent as always. We will reconvene next week. Thanks for having me. Bye-bye, guys. All right. See you. Bye. Bye. Bye.