Date My Mom
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Welcome back to I Do Part Two. It's your celebrity mentors, Kelly Fentzeman from the Real Housewives of New York and myself, Alexia Napola from the Real Housewives of Miami.

Hi, Kelly. Hi, Alexia. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. How are you doing? I'm doing well. This is going to be a very, very interesting conversation with Dr. Hilary Goulter. I cannot wait to ask her some questions. What are you going to ask her? Yes. Well, I have so many questions. I feel like we can do like three, four or five parts to this segment because there's so much to talk about and so much to unwrap. But for me, it's always been like, what?

Why do women get it harder than men when it comes to dating? Why is it okay for dad to date whoever he wants to date, whatever age they are, doesn't matter. Everything is okay. But then the mom has like a really nice guy that she wants to date and you give her a really hard time. I have a problem with that. What do you think? Do you think that's a good question? That is a great question. And I know that a lot of people are going to want to know the answer.

Yeah, I mean, because, you know, I know that there's a lot to it as well. But I always think it's just so much harder to be a woman, Kelly.

Like in my next life, I just want to be a guy. I think they have it so much easier. Well, because we're the nurturers. That's why. Yeah. Well, I love being a mom and being a nurturer. So do I. But I always feel like the dad, you know, is like he can get away with anything. And if he has money, even more power to him. It's like he's perfect. He's great. There's nothing he does wrong as long as he provides. Right. So, okay. Okay. Dr. Hillary is here. So let's just dive right into this.

Hi, Dr. Hillary. Hi, so fun to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so we're going to dive right into this. We have a lot of questions for you, Dr. Hillary. And I'm sure the viewers and the listeners are very eager to hear what you have to say about this. So in your professional opinion,

I want to know what you think, who has it more difficult? Is it the dads that have been more difficult when it comes to dating new girls or do the single moms that are dating have it more difficult? You know, as far as when the kids are involved, right? Like who do you think has it harder in the dating game when it comes to dating post-divorce? That's such a juicy question. There's so many levels here.

of that question to consider. So I'll unpack it. I mean, I think like at the top of the pyramid is intentionality, right? It sort of depends on what the dad or the mom is looking for. If you're looking for dating and casual fun, maybe men have it a bit easier for all the reasons in terms of access and the numbers of women available younger,

Perhaps there's more of an ease in that regard, but in terms of like trying to curate a new connection and a new relationship, I think it depends on the level of consciousness that each person brings, right? Post-divorce.

The way to cultivate a successful relationship is to come with a new understanding about what you're looking for, what you'll tolerate, what you won't tolerate. And I think that's heavy lifting. And in a way, women probably have more foresight and resources to go through that exercise to bring about things in their lives that resonate. And men may do less of that post-divorce. And it's sort of a stereotypical cliche, but I often see it.

So I think it really depends on each person's emotional station in life, what kind of work they actually engage in post-divorce, what kind of level of, as I said, consciousness and intentionality. You mentioned the kids, so logistics around kids is a whole other element. That's true. Well, I mean, I find with my experience, and as a woman, I feel like

Just in general, it's harder for the woman to date. You know, I think the kids are harder on their mom. I don't know if it's that they're being more protective or they, you know, live most of the time with the mom or she has like that, you know, that mother figure role. And I just think the guys, the dads have it easier, right? It's just like, you know, it's okay for like the dad to date different girls. But, you know, when it comes to the mom, it's that we're judged differently. I mean, that's just like my opinion and not that I lived it.

But, you know, I have a lot of friends that are divorced and are dating. And and that's, you know, that's what they've shared with me. I think, too, Alexia, it's also, you know, it's I love that Hillary is talking about Dr. Hillary is talking about all the work and and that is so important, you

I think for children, too, just from like seeing my kids there, you know, a lot of children gravitate towards the parents who basically is either they're blaming the parent that is the one that's the nurturer and they're celebrating the one that has the money. And so, like, I think, you know, typically the generalization, like Dr. Hillary said, is that, you know, a lot of men are.

you know, have Wednesdays and Saturdays and the women have, you know, the majority of the time with the children. And so it's just natural that, you know, when you're reliant on a parent, whether they're the father or the mother, that person, that parent is going to be the one that's not going to get,

you know, the love. And, you know, I know for my own self, I mean, I didn't have, there was no Wednesdays, there were no Saturdays, um, there were no vacations. It was, uh, I had a full custody of my children, which I asked for, uh, just because I thought it was the best scenario for my children. And it was really difficult. I mean, my children are older now, uh, but when they were younger, it was very, very difficult. Um, and,

Because I did not want to bring them into a situation where they were like, who is this person? Are you my daddy? You know, it's like that little book, like, are you my daddy? Are you my daddy? And so I didn't want my children to feel like that as well. Like they needed to find a dad eventually.

that's not what I wanted. And even now my kids are, they're really looking for a partner. So it's like the three of us were like, we're a trifecta and we're there. I mean, sometimes I'm like, Oh my God, like the people that they like versus the people that I like. You know, it's like, it's, it's like very stressful because they're like, this is the person for you. And I'm like, are you sure? That's a great question. So should we have our children picking our partners? Yeah.

- Yeah, Dr. Hillary, should we? That's a great question, Alexia. - I mean, we want our children's approval, of course, because they're our life and they're such a big part of our life and we want to blend the families. We want everybody to be happy and get along.

But is that even a good idea, right? Because at the end of the day, we don't really have a say in our children's relationships. And our children grow up and they make their choices and they, you know, choose and select their partners. And, you know, they want our blessing too, right? We want to like them also and approve of them. But at the end of the day, it just really, you know, it has to do with you. I don't think we should give our children that power. I do think we need to validate their emotions and their feelings and, you know,

and respect their boundaries and all that. But it's really the person that makes you happy. And whatever they think may make you happy is really not what you're searching for or what you need. There's like an old adage about how other people's seeing in, and it's like they say something like, people are blind, but the neighbors ain't. Like,

the neighbors are not blind. And sometimes our kids, they have different interests because maybe like, for example, they might like, like a man who has more money so that then they see that the man is showering, you know, us with money. And maybe that the, that they're like, that helps them feel more comfortable, but you know, friends and family, they see when the person is the wrong person. Dr. What do you think about that? Well, yeah, the red flags for sure. Yeah. They do know that. Absolutely. Yeah.

So there's actually a clear answer to this, which is no. And I'll walk through why. But that doesn't mean that the children aren't involved in the process of sort of curating an extended dynamic with a partner that you're going to introduce into your life. There should be a real deliberateness about how you facilitate that. But in terms of picking a partner,

What I'm about to say is really critical, which is kids don't ultimately want that responsibility. They may tell you they do. They may try to embody it. But kids don't feel good when they have, quote, too much power over their parents. They don't want to run the show. If we ask them, they're going to probably say the opposite. But later, when they end up in my office in like 20 years, they're going to talk about the dynamic of feeling like they had too much say.

in their family system that doesn't feel good, that feels dysregulating. So setting the boundary of like, hey, this is kind of mom's journey and like I will sort of date and get to know people that I feel appropriate

I will make mistakes. I will make connections. And like when it's appropriate, I'll bring you in and I'll ask your opinion about how and about when and how often. And it's then that if kids have feedback about like, I really think he's amazing for these reasons or like I'm kind of seeing something that makes me uncomfortable. That's a fair dialogue to have with kids. But we don't want to put kids in a position to feel responsible. It's like it's too much heavy lifting.

That's another interesting point. So if we can, and I agree with that, I agree that, you know, I mean, I, I mean, I have respect for my children's opinions, but I don't, you know, make decisions based on their thoughts. I mean, they're still, even though they're 24 and 26, they are still my children. So I agree with that.

But what about when you're in the dynamic of like blending the family? Because like when you're, you know, I'm 56 years old, obviously there's going to be a lot of men in the pool that I'm looking at who have children. And what are your thoughts when like all of the kids are kind of like at each other's throats and, you know, like how do you,

Like, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's such a good question. And there's no like formula to make it go perfectly, but at least try to be, in my view, slow, deliberate and sort of curated about it. I would have an upfront discussion about it. Like I was just alluding to earlier that like this person's important to me, even if your kiddos are 26 and 24, you know, even if they're clearly adults and particularly when they're kiddos, but

Either way, I would sit down and sort of be like,

This is going to happen. This person has become important to me and I want him to know you and I want you to know him. And he has kids in the mix and I want you all to know each other. I want there to be some version of community. I appreciate that. Yeah, and I think we should go slow also. I feel like the biggest problem with a lot of relationships, women and men, is that they introduce their so-called new love or boyfriend or girlfriend too soon to the kids. And sometimes the kids don't really need to be involved so soon in the relationship.

So that's the advice I could give, right? To just go slow. Alexia is absolutely right. Even though we, the woman or the guy, might be really excited and envision this community and sort of familial feel, which is...

sort of really an exciting notion post-divorce and you start imagining like some other paradigm that feels really healing and lovely. But kids don't need to be involved at the beginning. I mean, there's no particular time frame that I would adhere to per se, but like I wouldn't get into it for at least six months is my opinion. What happens when you like the kids more than your partner? Yeah.

That's happened to me. Like, I love the kids. And I was like, he's awful, but they're amazing. That might be a sign to consider exiting. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Awful. And, you know, it's like, I feel like I'm like, oh, you know, my kids, there's one French friend, a guy that I dated and he had kids who just were adorable. And my, my kids still really, really like his kids. And

But he's just awful. So it's like, you know, that is just terrible, too, because I mean, you know, for someone like me, like I have since day one, the reason that I got divorced, the fundamental reason outside of like other things, but the fundamental reason is because I wanted a family for my family.

And I did not, you know, my ex-husband was not, he was a, you know, he's an incredible creative, but in terms of being like a father figure and creating a dynamic family, he just, that wasn't that, he just didn't have that tool in his tool belt, just wasn't there. And so I was just, I've been constantly on the search for literally now it's 15, almost 15 years for this.

just a good human. Dr. Hillary, where are they? Well, I mean, you're bringing up something that's sort of tangential to what we were just talking about, which is that not for every woman, but for many women, that's sort of primitive edict for connection and family and community. And you being in search of that is completely lovely and appropriate and can be blinding when you're

an apparent opportunity to build that community and we can like fill in the blanks to make it okay or

or what we want it to be without being clear about what's actually happening. And so even though you have that interest of curating that community and that sort of family system, and I said before, six months, whatever the number is, trying to be slow and deliberate and intentional, having those kinds of conversations with your kids beforehand and to kind of get back to the point you guys brought up, if and when things aren't going well, the kids don't get along or they're not interested in connecting like,

deeply validating it. I totally get it. Like, this is fun for me, but like, doesn't feel that fun for you. It makes sense to me. This isn't your family. This isn't, you know, these aren't your siblings. This isn't a step parent and you're not invested like I am. Totally. What's something that we can broker that feels okay to you? You know, can, can we spend a couple of hours once a week, right? Being able to respect the,

our kids' perspective. I mean, some of this depends on age. We can get into the nuance of that, but respecting what it feels like as a kid to be introduced to this new paradigm of people. For you, you have compelling, exciting feelings. For kids, they have natural resistance. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's also for some, for me, my kids really want me to meet someone. They want me to meet someone special, not just anyone. They really want me to have that, you know, relationship. They, they know that I've looked, I've been looking for that. They know it's something that I've always wanted.

And I just never, you know, found it. And it's interesting. I was on a call with one of my clients the other day and he was like, you didn't get the memo Kelly of like dating the route, the rich man. I'm like, no, I'm sorry. Just didn't get that memo. Sorry. Missed that one. Missed that memo. Sorry. And I'm like, that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a real connection. What about you, Alexia? What are your thoughts? I think it's going to be easier for you now that your daughters are older and

I think it's harder when they're teenagers, you know, especially for girls that they're hormonal and they're going through their periods. And, you know, it also depends on the, you know, parenting styles, you know, like for example, if you're dating somebody that has children and his parenting style is different from yours, it's really difficult to blend families. I'm not going to lie. I've been through it two times already. And I, I,

want to say that I haven't really succeeded because you need both sides. You need, everybody needs to be involved, right? Like your current partner, his ex-wife, his children, yourself, your children. It's really, really hard. Like back in the day, for example, my mom was divorced five times. So I had different men in my life, right? But my mom always had it very clear and would tell the men, these are my children. And we were three brothers and sisters. And you have no say in the way I bring up my children or in anything.

So I really never saw them as a stepfather or as a father figure or anything like that because I had my father. I was fortunate enough to have my father involved in my life.

So it was always like my mom's boyfriend or my mom's man, but it was never really involved in my life. Back in the day, this was obviously many years ago when we didn't have all this information and awareness and all this kind of stuff, even though my mom was a psychiatrist and she was a very smart woman. And that's how it worked for her. It was like, these are my children and we lived with my mom. So it was my mom's rules and she never allowed her partner to have any say in any decision making in our lives.

And you know what? It works for her. So it's something that's very personal. You know, this, we can have, I do part one, two, three, four, five. We can talk about the subjects forever because it's so complex and there's so much to unpack. And it depends on the children. Also, like if you're the new spouse that comes in and your partner, whether you were a cause of the divorce, you know, the children are going to have resentment and they're not going to, you know, welcome the person into their lives. And you can't even blame, you know, the child's,

in a way. So it's just very, very complex, you know, but for you, Kelly, I think it's way easier now because your daughters are older. You have a beautiful relationship with them. They're mature. You know, they want, I guess, you know, our children to learn from us.

So you're, I'm sure your daughters are going to choose really well, you know, cause I had a really good example and they probably want for you what they want for them. And what's going to make you happier than having your daughters marry forever. Right. And find that man and you're going to find them too. You know, he's, he's, he's out there. You just have to put yourself out there and be open to it.

And, you know, don't involve your daughter so much, Kelly. They're already adults. You know, they're going to figure it out. They're going to have their relationships and they're going to make their mistakes too, even though I know we want to save our children and not make the mistakes, but they have to go through it too and learn from it. I mean, I love my girls. Like I literally would do absolutely anything for them. And I've proven that. We're both amazing moms. We have amazing kids. But what happens is that

you know, I'm also in my 50s, your children grow up and, you know, and they make their lives and they do. And that's what you want them to do. It's hard for me, too, because I'm super overprotective. And, you know, my situation. But, you know, it would be selfish of me, you know, not to do that. And we have to look out for ourselves and what makes us happy. And obviously, you're at a different stage in your life than your daughters are just beginning. Yeah.

And like I said, I'm sure that they're going to pick that guy, that guy that they would probably want you to be with. Right. But that's what they want. So that's the person they're going to choose. And you're going to pick whoever, you know, whoever is going to make you happy and checks off the boxes and you're going to have, you know,

that compatibility and whatever it is you know that you're looking for but I've learned that we need to leave our children out of it I mean it depends on the time because like Dr. Hillary said they don't have the capacity we can't give them that responsibility that's like a hard job and then if it doesn't work out I mean they're already going through children with divorce parents already have their own trauma and you know their own things so we're just adding more pressure to them

So, and you know, I've made that mistake. That's why we're here talking about it because, you know, sometimes, you know, we, you know, we do have to listen to them obviously and validate their feelings and emotions. But at the end of the day, we're the adults. We're the ones that have to make that decision, not let them make it.

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My children were just not happy. And I, we had gone away on vacation and they just were so miserable. And I just was like, this is not what I want in my life. Like, I do not want to live my life with my children being miserable. Like, I just don't want that. What are your thoughts on, what are your thoughts on that?

on what I did. Wow, that's a power move. But look, I understand to make such an enormous decision in your life and to have your kids vocally and viscerally unhappy is an almost impossible combination, right? And we're talking about a subset of what we were originally talking about, which is

the notion of sure, not letting our kiddos pick our partner, but once a partner is in our lives, understanding their impact on our family system is really, really important. So of course, I don't know the details and I imagine

You'll have to tell me, but some of the discomfort that was coming up for them must have bumped up against some of your pre-existing unconscious discomfort if you eventually made that decision. Oh, it was conscious. It was definitely not unconscious. Yeah. I was going to ask you that, Dr. Hillary. So in that situation, like, what do you do? Like, let's say like your children are not comfortable with

The new person in your life and you're about to get married and whatnot. So what do you do like as a mom, right? What do you do? Do you go ahead with it? Do you,

Do you try to do like a family meeting, right? And like some intervention, some therapy? I don't know. What is it that we can do? Look, I think, I mean, notwithstanding the four days before part of it. Right. That was pretty ballsy, Kelly. Thanks, Alexia. I was like, this is not happening. You know, you have to go buy your car and that's what you did. Paradoxically, I would lean way in.

Meaning I would open up a lot of space for their thoughts and feedback. It doesn't mean you have to take their advice, sort of follow their line of thinking, but I would be like, I'm curious, tell me more. Your opinion, your feeling, your mindset matters to me greatly. Like I want to hear everything. I would just invite the feedback and the dialogue just between you and them. And then you have some work to do, right? I mean, and Kelly, it sounds like in your case, it was...

clearly bumping up, intersecting with existing concerns that you had, right? And so in this case, and you'll have to tell me if I'm right, but in this case, there were a bit of like truth tellers, things that you were already thinking about consciously or unconsciously. And so if that's true, that's one scenario, you know, where it's sort of like, wow, I haven't wanted to look at these things and face these things.

But it's still important, even if that's the scenario we're talking about, to make that decision by yourself to do the work, to do the analysis, to talk to trusted others, a therapist, a mentor, et cetera, to think about what are your deal breakers? What are your non-negotiables? What are the dynamics that work for you? And what are the dynamics that don't? And obviously dynamics related to our children are going to be included in that analysis.

There are often scenarios where our kids are just resistant. Yeah, I was going to say that too. Absolutely. They don't want to quote, lose us to someone, right? And

And so reticence is more rooted in their own understandable trauma, right? Of their self and now being replaced or their dad being replaced or both. And those are also really valid feelings. So to name those feelings and honor those and validate them, but still reserve the right and model for them that you're going to make your own decision if

this person in this relationship resonates with you. I mean, it's much more complicated in terms of what it would look like playing out, but that's sort of the headlines. No, I appreciate that. I love that you said that, Dr. Hillary, because that's how I think now. I didn't feel like that years ago, but what I've learned through my life lessons, I feel the same way.

about what you heard right now. And I had, so my second husband, Herman had two adult children when, well children, because I always consider them children, but they were already like over 18. One was like about to turn 18. And, and, you know, they resisted for the wrong reasons, you know, but he always had it very clear. He said, listen,

You know, she's not trying to be your mom or your stepmom, but you have to respect her and she's your friend. And she's just going to have that friend role, you know, and she's my wife and she's who I love. And this is what it's going to be. And you need to respect that when you, you know, when you're ready to go with your life and select your woman and marry her.

I will respect that as well. But I am going to make that decision. So you never really know. And I honestly, I was not the cause of their divorce. I was nothing. I met years later, but they still held on to that resentment and to that resist. And they never wanted to see their father happy. That's really what it is.

And they waited till dad passed away to tell me F you like literally, we were just buried him. And that was the first thing they did. So all of that resentment. Can you imagine? No, I cannot. I'm so sorry. It's awful. I know. So at my at my wedding with him.

My friend, my friends that were there said, Alexia, we never told you, but his sons were crying at the wedding and they weren't crying out of joy. They were crying out of anger that he married you. They were so upset. And I'm like, why? Like, all I do is try to make the father happy. And that's how it is in every relationship. Right. It wasn't like I don't know today why those kids cry.

you know, disliked me so much. Because, you know, all I did was like, you know, be a good wife, be a good like mother role, accept them into my life, give them love and respect. I mean, that's how it was. I even worked with them. So it was really, really difficult for me. So for me, when I married Todd, I said he had two daughters. I said, you know what? I'm going to have zero involvement because I was so hurt with, you know, with Herman's kids that I said to myself, you know, I'm not going to set myself up

for that pain again, you know, to like raise these girls, to like be, you know, so close to them and love them so much. And then God forbid, it doesn't work out. And then, you know, they like hate me. Like I, you know, I was protecting myself.

So it's really, really difficult. That's all I can tell you. I mean, it's, you know, my mom would say you can get married and divorced as many times as you want, but only have, you can't have children because the children are the ones that are affected. And then that's when it comes to blending families. Like, you know, the responsibility really falls on the parents. You know, it's up to them. They have to put all their differences aside and say, you know what? We want our kids to come out healthy and,

you know, mentally. So we need to do this for them. Forget about what happened between you and I, and you have to, you know, parent the right way. And, you know, and it's hard, it's hard to do it. It's easy to say, but I know it's very hard to do it. You know, I think one of the things that divorce parents underestimate and stay with me, because this will tie back to what you're saying is the extended trauma of divorce on kids. We

choose to get a divorce or a divorce happens to us and then we get to move on with our lives. We process it, we grieve, we have trauma, etc. But we get to curate new relationships, new partnerships, sometimes new marriages. This is a lifelong thing for kids, right? Many of them are going back and forth between houses and have to deal with new partners in and out of their lives and aren't

organically interested sometimes in forming relationships with new partners. And when you think about it objectively, that makes sense. I mean, it's important to the people in the partnership

but not always important to the children. That doesn't mean we don't try to curate something that's cohesive and courteous and polite, but I think what we miss is an opportunity to like deeply validate the experience of the kids, even if they're adults. Like some version of like, I get that this isn't fun. I get that you might have resistance to this. I get that you might even feel angry about this.

You might even still have feelings of upset that we're divorced in the first place, even if it happened 15 years ago. I see adult children in my practice, meaning people who are 30, 40, 50, 60, who obviously are adults, but we're children of divorce that are still processing the impact of divorce.

Even if they're adults, bringing in a new partner can be triggering to their original trauma and their sort of ongoing trauma and processing of it. So while Alexia, I'm not saying that means people should not get into new relationships and formulate a new community, but there is a way to narrate those truths that make the new partner more accessible and digestible to our adult kids. And I think a lot of parents, because it's so awkward and difficult,

painful to acknowledge those truths or to acknowledge that the kids might be either neutral or not into it, don't have those kinds of discussions that sort of lay better groundwork to bring in new people.

I mean, one thing I think was like the good thing that I did when my when I got divorced from my from my only ex-husband is that I never spoke badly about their dad. You know, whether he was available, unavailable, whatever he was doing, those were those were things that they told me. And I didn't engage in whatever they were telling me. I was like, oh, you know, I understand.

you know, listening to them speak, but then I didn't, I didn't indulge them in any kind of negative conversation. And so they're not used to hearing or being a part of like a negative narrative with anybody that I am, have, you know, been with. And so I think that they were just genuinely just not happy. And it's interesting because after I got, after I, after I called up the wedding, I,

I, you know, I obviously was around, you know, a lot of my friends and they were, you know, the majority of the people that I were, you know, that were, you know, giving me advice afterwards, they were saying that, you know, I'm getting older and that I really need to settle down and, you know, find the right person, which I understand and agree with. And they were they were just.

You know, the common denominator was, you know, it doesn't matter if the kids don't get along or if his kids don't like you or your kids don't like him. It's about your relationship together. And like, I just don't operate like that.

I was not raised that way. I'm just not an East Coast. I mean, I've lived in the East Coast for obviously a number of years, but my inherent mindset and upbringing comes from the Midwest, which is about building a family. Right.

that's what I want and that's what I'm going to get. Well, unless I am missing a piece of the story, it sounds like the things that your kids narrated for you were truths for you also. Yeah. And so I think we should make that distinction. Yeah. Well, I mean, I always wanted that too. It just hasn't worked out that way. But, you know, I feel like I'm like you too, Kelly. I wanted that. Like I never wanted to divorce. I came from

a family that was divorced. I never wanted that. My brother and sister are still married. So I tried, you know, so, but there's, you know, only so much you could do, you know, for the kids. And I feel like now that my kids are older, they get it. They're like, mom, I understand, you know, this, that, and why you made this decision and why you did that.

And, you know, maybe now that your girls are older, you can have that conversation with them. Yeah. You know, I just was, I just interested. It was like, my kids have been, you know, I mean, they've been, you know, very supportive of whatever I've been doing, but I thought that was,

that like people that I knew are just like, Kelly, just like suck it up and just like find a partner. I'm like, you don't just find a partner like you buy a van. Like finding a partner is not going to make you happy or fix your life or fix yourself. So that's nonsense.

But I think a lot of people think that. I know. Well, a lot of women do because the women that are married, so you have those friends that will give you that kind of advice because they've always been in a relationship. Then you'll have women that are never married or they're happily divorced and they're independent, you know, financially and psychologically and emotionally. So they'll give you a different kind of advice. But you have to focus on you, on Kelly, and like what you want. Yeah. Yeah.

this really feeds into the narrative that is old but still is quite ubiquitous, which is the idea that you are undervalued if you aren't in relationship, right? And the fear that is in our sociocultural dynamics around women aging. And so you're right to notice that this messaging doesn't feel good and doesn't resonate. And I think it's incredible that you've been able to stand up in the face of it and sort of say like, no, I'm going to

I'm going to pick something that resonates. I'm going to wait until I get a version of what I want, which is exactly what you should do. And I think, I mean, there is a lot of fear associated with doing things on your own by yourself. I mean, whether that's a male or a female, you know, it is so much nicer when you can say there's a pot. We're both putting it in. We're going to create and build something.

You know, I'm building on my own and there's something very daunting about that every day. It's like it's like I'm not only an entrepreneur in business, but I'm an entrepreneur in my personal life, too, which is a very kind of daunting, you know, everyday thing.

thought that I have. I mean, I don't mean to be negative. I'm just very realistic and pragmatic. I mean, do you really believe you're going to find that person that you can start building with them? Okay, listen, there's nothing like faith and being positive and optimistic. I'm not. But I'm also, that's my mindset. I definitely would love to have something with, you know, my significant other where we were doing something together and

And creating like value, not, not necessarily monetary value, but like personal value. I think that's really important. Personal for sure. Yeah. Because I mean, we're not going to have kids. I mean, from personal, I agree. I think that that's a really woman's, you know, goal and wish and dream. You know, we all want that, right. That's what we long for. Maybe I'm an optimist. Yeah, no. And I am too. Like, you know, we're in love with love and we want to have that. I'm the only optimist in New York city. Yeah.

I don't know. Well, come to Miami because I feel like I've lost my optimism and I'm super jaded because I live in Miami. Oh, I see. You have me. And you have Dr. Hillary. Yes. I think it's important for us to sort of, in my view, have embraced and normalized what

Kelly is talking about, which is formulating a connection with someone through respect and emotional, physical resonance and aversion of safety. These are all requirements that are more than appropriate and more than possible. I don't want to misrepresent the truth. There are many, many women of all age ranges that have

can narrate how difficult that can be. I'm not trying to downplay that truth. And there are a lot of reasons for that, not the least of which is that it's tricky to be an emotionally evolved man in our culture because it's both required but also ground-dependent, which we can get into.

if we'd like, but it's hard to find a man that can stand next to you and sort of give you these requirements that you're asking for. Having said that, that kind of connection seems completely reasonable to me. And you're doing such a service right now, which is both pulling back the curtain on like the fear of like doing so much of this alone. It is hard and lonely at moments. It is scary. It is. Yeah. Not at moments. It is hard and lonely period. It's,

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Thank you for calling Amica Insurance. Hey, I was just in an accident. Don't worry, we'll get you taken care of. At Amica, we understand that looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking. It's human. Amica, empathy is our best policy. I mean, I went on a date last night and he said to me, you're so nurturing. He's like, I've never been with a woman that's so nurturing. I'm like, I haven't done anything. I'm sitting at a restaurant.

But I was just asking about himself and I genuinely am interested in what he's doing and how he feels and how he's raising his kids. And maybe because of all the work that I've done, not only with a therapist, but just from working on with I Do Part Two and just meeting all these amazing women like you, Hillary, and Alexia. I mean, just tons of women and men that I've met. So it's just like I just have a different perspective now.

now than I did definitely, you know, last summer. So it's like nine months. It's taking nine months to heal. Well, you know, we're a work in progress. You know, as long as we're, you know, living and growing and learning,

It's all good for us. And I want to be a good role model for my kids. And I want to be, I know I'm going to make mistakes. And I really like that Alexia talks about like her mother saying that there's going to be mistakes and you're going to have to watch. And I really, really embrace that. I think it's really important to acknowledge that people are going to make mistakes and that they don't need to be reprimanded or, you know,

like blamed or shamed because they are not necessarily always doing the right thing at the right time. You know, we're human. I just, you know, it's just been a very interesting road for me. And, you know, I really, you know, it's been hard too with my girls. Like I just want, I want everything for them, just like Alexia's mom wanted for her. Like that's what I want and what Alexia wants for her kids. That's what I want for mine. You know, I just want everyone to be

I'm being happy family. What has, what have been like your most Kelly, you know, sort of critical insights and lessons over the last nine months? To be forgiving of myself and of other people and really genuinely forgiving, not like I forgive, but I don't forget or like all these, like, you know, kind of like housewives, not nothing against housewives, Alexia, but like, you know, like when you're on housewives, it's like, you have this kind of like,

You know, this verbiage where you're like, I forgive, but I don't forget. But like in my own personal Kelly life, just genuine forgiveness for myself, for the decisions that I've made.

Yeah, like, I'll be so hard on yourself. I feel like as women and moms, we're always really hard on ourselves. So hard on ourselves. So hard on ourselves. And, you know, you know, we've all been through a lot. And we all have these, you know, strong narratives. And we all want to, you know, move forward and, you know, be the best version of ourselves. But sometimes it's not always easy when, you know, there's a clash, right?

Or there's a conflict. Or there's, like, something that's unexpected. Like, you know, I mean... How awful that Alexia's children are crying. I mean, that's awful. I was like, that's terrible. I mean, particularly when we have kids in our sphere, being able to, maybe not in real time, but over time, being able to narrate, yeah, this was whatever the this is, this calling off the wedding, you know, this...

was like tricky and painful and unexpected. And I felt lost and despair and hopeless. And you saw that and you felt that and that had to be disorienting, but that's like part of being human. And I have gratitude that you were able to witness that. I mean, I wouldn't,

wish that on me or you, but like it's real to have suffering and pain. And I want you to see that part of that is sitting in the mess, being still with tricky feelings, not knowing which way to go, being destabilized, being disoriented, and then climbing your way out. And I think particularly as women, we feel like

like this primitive edict to model some version of like perfection or chronic emotional regulation in front of our kids and it's not really a thing and in fact we're depriving them of having a role model to like oh this is what it looks like when things get tricky this is what it looks like when things are hard mom does get sad mom does cry mom does make the wrong decision but

What happens next? She comes back. She narrates it. She makes it less confusing by telling me what happened. She gives me insight into how she's reconceptualizing it and showing up different. That's even what more could we give to our kids other than wishing that their lives would be perfect. No such thing. I love what you just said, showing up different after being communicative. I mean, that is so strong. Dr. Hillary, you're a genius. Wow.

She's like in my spare time. We can give our kids save some lights.

you know, notion that we can make things not complicated for them. Since we know that's not a thing that is, that is our mission. And it relieves us of the notion that we somehow can't be messy in front of our kids. Yeah, we can. And we should call it out, raise our hand and said, you see it, you saw it. And here's what I've done about it. I love that. Okay. So I have two, you asked me about what was the one thing. So the one is forgiveness and the two is just being accountable, personally accountable. Yeah.

So when anyone asks me whether that's, you know, on our podcast or in general, I always talk about my responsibility for what I've done or how I've reacted, um, and what I'm doing to be proactive about moving forward with my own new narrative. And, uh,

You know, it takes a lot of guts to do that, to be honest with you, too. I mean, you have to remember, like, it's not like I'm like with someone. I'm still single and I'm, you know, still open to being accountable and being like, OK, I did some really, you know, stupid things myself. But I know that there's more to come. And I think that all of that, I think that just like being able to articulate that, whether that's

you know, here or just with friends has really opened me up. And you said that a couple of times, Dr. Hillary, about really being open up, like giving yourself space for all of those new feelings, those new people, those new relationships. That's just really, really, really been very important for me. Yeah. And here's an unexpected paradox, which you're describing, which is accountability ultimately equals empowerment.

an intense feeling of empowerment, right? To say the thing, I did that. I showed up in a way I didn't feel. It's liberating and it's compelling to other people. Nine times out of 10, if not more, people are going to be compelled by it and find you interesting and find that story to be inspiring, right? The notion that like, I own how I move through the world when it's powerful and amazing and when it didn't work.

And so I imagine that it over, like that's part of why these nine months had been

a growth season for you is because it starts to curate a version of like expansiveness and possibility and like a sense of power. And two things can be true at the same time. All of that can be happening for you and you can still want a partner to have intimacy and connection, right? Thank you so much, Dr. Hillary. Thank you, Alexia. This has been unbelievable. Your insight is so powerful. Alexia, you are such an open person.

force of nature. And I'm so happy that I've gotten to know you better. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys. No, thank you. Thank you, Dr. Hillary. Thank you so much.

Are you a single parent navigating dating post-divorce? Maybe you got teenagers at home and it hasn't been easy. Well, we are here to help. Call us or email us, follow us on socials. All the information will be in the show notes. Make sure to rate and review the podcast. I do part two, an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in love is the main objective.

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So what really makes relationships last? On this episode of Dope Labs, poet and relationship expert Young Pueblo breaks down the psychology of love and provides eye-opening insights and advice we all need. You should not be postponing your happiness. Your greatest happiness is not necessarily going to like come from a relationship. Your partner should add to your happiness, but your happiness is really coming from within you. Listen to Dope Labs on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.