Divorce Court
38:45 Share

Are you ready to move your career forward? Make your comeback with Purdue Global and get college credit for your work, school, life, or military experiences. With these credits, you may have already completed up to 75% of your undergraduate degree. You've worked hard to get where you are. It's time to get the recognition you deserve and earn a degree you'll be proud of, one that employers will trust and respect. When you take the next step in your life and career, make it count with Purdue Global, Purdue's

online university for working adults. Start your comeback at purdueglobal.edu.

When you choose to earn your degree online from Southern New Hampshire University, you're saying yes to new opportunities and to new adventures. You're saying yes to something big, something you've always wanted to do. If earning your degree is one of your goals this new year, SNHU can help you get there. With low online tuition, no set class times, and multiple term starts per year, you can set the pace that works for you and save money along the way. Visit snhu.edu today to get started.

And I'll see you next time.

Welcome back to I Do Part 2. I'm one of your celebrity mentors, Sheryl Burke, and today I'm joined by a powerhouse of women for a conversation on a topic I know we all have a lot to say about. So please join us.

Help me welcome fellow celebrity mentors, Kelly Ben Simone, Alexia Napola. Hi, ladies. Hi, Cheryl. Hi, Kelly. It's been so long, Alexia, especially. Yes. Last time I saw you, you were dancing with one of my friends, William Levy. We went out to L.A. and you guys obviously were my favorite couple and you should have taken the trophy. Right? Yeah, I think.

I mean, people were drooling over that guy, but how are you doing? I know you too, by the way, because you're an amazing dancer. You've always been my favorite dancer, by the way. Amazing. Thanks so much. How are you, Kelly? I'm good.

I'm doing better, so much better. You know, you and I have kind of been through a lot together and I'm just feeling like emotionally so much stronger. But, you know, with any kind of like, you know, unraveling of anything, it's twofold. It's emotional and transactional. And so there was just a lot of money things I had to take care of, which I was not happy with. Yeah.

which actually made me more angry than just not being together. Right, right. I hear you. I mean, that's just the roller coaster of emotions, I'm sure. Just wasting money is just not my thing. It's a lesson learned. Never a waste. 2025 is going to be such a good year, though. It's going to be amazing. Are you talking about the relationship you're in with your fiance? Yes, I am, don't.

Okay. In the summer. So Cheryl has been so great. We started doing this podcast together the very beginning and Cheryl taught me a lot about how to navigate, but also how to treat myself. And we were just, we've been through similar situations. I'm so excited to hear. I feel like a lot of us women have been through situations like that. Yeah. It's just not talked about as much.

Right. And I think it's so much better, at least for me, you know, I think talking about it, and especially to somebody like Cheryl that's gone through it or other of our friends or women that have gone through it, it's so much more relatable and they get it. You know, sometimes your friends that haven't been in these situations don't get it. And it's, you know, and it's really hard. So it's great that you've had Cheryl. I don't know if you have any other friends, but I know for me, my friends have been everything. Oh, new for you, it's just been you? Well, I've been very fortunate. No, no, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. Oh, okay.

No, because you know what? I'm Kelly's only friend. That's it. No, well, I'm sure you give her good advice. Because by the way, I was also reading. I started following you, Cheryl. And I started reading like your interviews and your podcasts and listening to them. And I'm loving them. I'm enjoying them. And I'm also learning a lot through because I'm also going through my own journey. But yeah, so it's great to have you now also, you know, as my friend and as my mentor and Kelly too. So thank you. I just need to follow my own advice. That's the hard part.

Well, that's what happens to me, Cheryl. I give great advice and then I don't apply it to myself. All my friends come to me for advice and they're like, what about you? I always tell Cheryl that she's the adult in the room and she's teaching me and mentoring me.

If only you knew what I did, though, when you weren't with me. I'd be like, wait a second. Are you being a hypocrite or? No, I'm kidding. As I say, don't do as I do. Exactly. That is a true saying. That is true. That's my therapist. I'm like, how messed up is your life, my therapist, for the last 15 years? Let's talk about you, okay? Right.

Well, my mom was a great psychiatrist and she gave great like couples therapy and she had been divorced five times. So I was like, mom, like she divorced five times. I'm like, how can you? And she would make everyone stay together. And she was so good at it. And yet in her life, she was a mess. Let's see if Dennis, Dennis Vetrano, if he has also gone through many divorces, I'm hoping he has because then he'll really be able to relate. Well, I feel like we've only gone through one, right? Us three.

I've only gone through one. Yeah, only one for now. Well, me, be the same because my second one, my husband, we never filed for divorce and he unfortunately passed away. So I was technically a widow. That's the one I met. I met Herman. Yeah, that's the one you met Herman. I'm so sorry. Yeah, because he was a great man. I'm so sorry.

And so technically, you know, we never filed for divorce or anything. We're great friends, work together. And unfortunately, you know, that happens. And my third husband now, which is Todd, I'm still married to him. And I'm still trying to stay married. Let's see what the...

I mean, we're both trying to make it work. It takes work. It works, right? It's always a work in progress. It's never too comfortable. It is. And I just think it's easier. I just think it's easier. And I think a lot of people, that's why they're quitting so quickly because it's just easier to walk away. It takes so much work on both sides and so much effort that sometimes I think people just don't want to try so hard anymore. Or it could be that like,

the one person wants to work, but then you can't force the other person to do the work either. And when that's the situation, there's nothing you can do other than put yourself first and walk away. You know? Yeah. That won't work. You definitely both. You've had two relationships. I've only had one, um, one like big relationship, um,

one marriage. And I, it's interesting because, you know, I, everyone's like, well, how come you're, you're single? Like basically like, what's wrong with you? I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not single. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just because I'm not in a relationship doesn't mean I had the single mindset. Right. I'm looking for the right person, not any person. That is true. But are you okay with like being alone? I think that that's my, yeah.

Yeah, well, I think now you are, right? Because you went through your journey. But I freaking love it. I love it too much. My therapist is worried about me.

Really? Because I know that's scary too. You see, I have a lot of friends like you, Cheryl, that have been divorced and they're so good being alone that they really, and you know, they're also a bit like you by choice because they're just not going to, they just don't want another relationship. It's weird, but I'm kind of scared of that too, Cheryl. I'm not going to lie. Because I feel like, I'm just like, I know there's a difference between being alone and being lonely. I would never be lonely because my life is very complete and I have so much going on in my life.

And I love my life, so I don't see it that way. But I've always seen myself with someone. My happiness doesn't depend on the person. But part of my happiness in my vision board is being with someone and sharing my life with someone. I hear you. But you know...

there's going to be ebbs and flows like with anything, with money, with relationships. And I believe that it's never, nothing's forever except you are you forever. Like you're stuck with you for the rest of your life. You better like yourself. And I think when it comes to, I want to find someone that makes me happy or those types of like statements are really, it's, I, I would, I hope one day that,

And though I'm just saying this, it doesn't mean I'm doing it, but like, or practicing it, but the happiness does you complete you, right? Like, and I think until that really happens, then you start to attract the people that, um,

are healthy, that aren't looking for toxic relationships, that are looking for no one to complete them because they've already completed themselves. Like there's nobody's going to fill that void for you. I totally agree with that. And I think that like, you know, for me, like it's not that I, you know, I've been lonely. I just...

but I've also been raising two kids on my own. And so now, like even my, you know, my youngest is still living with me and, you know, I, I'm definitely looking to be with someone special. Definitely. And I've always been open to that. Um,

But, you know, when you're a full time single parent, you don't think, you know, you're not like, OK, I'll just, you know, dump my kids for some guy. It's not going to happen. No, hopefully not. I would never. I would never do that. No, not you.

Well, no, you haven't done it. So I don't think at this point in your life, you know, whoever comes to your life knows that your children are a priority and they're, you know, you're a package, you know, and that's what men that date women with kids have to understand. And that can also be a problem in relationships. You know, I feel like women that come into relationships with no kids because they don't want,

then it could work again. It really depends on the person that you're dating, you know? Yeah. So it's, it's very relative. Should we bring in our guest? You guys, this is going to be exciting. He's a talker and I can't wait to have him on. So are we. Oh yeah, I know. Exactly.

How long you got, folks? Okay, so today we're going to dive deep into the topic of divorce and ask all the questions that we wished we'd asked when we were going through it or things you should be considering the second time around. Our guest today is a divorce attorney, mediator, and has the best TikTok feed full of helpful information. This is very true. Please welcome Dennis Vetrano to the podcast.

Welcome. Hi, how are you? Meet all of us. Have you heard I do part two? Yes. Well, recently, yes. I've been kind of binging on it a little bit. Meet the ladies. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I guess tell us about yourself first and then we'll just, we've got tons of questions for you.

Okay. Oh, I'm frightened now. Should I be intimidated? No, I'm fine. I'm fine. No, you're used to this. I'm fine. I'm used to asking the questions, but I'll answer them too. So 25 years practicing attorney. I've been doing predominantly divorce and family law litigation throughout that timeframe and probably say maybe about the past five years just trying to

take what I've learned from being a divorce and family law litigation attorney for 25 years and try to like, and all the stories I've heard and all the horror stories and try to like rewind and say like, how do we look at the mistakes that are made in marriages and relationships that lead you to those divorces and those contentious, you know, uh,

drawn out, knock down, drag out divorces and rewind. Like, what could we have done to avoid that from the start? Like, what are the signs that we saw or maybe didn't see, should have seen that we could have fixed along the way to not end up in my office? So. Right. Right. But then also it's good for you, too, if they end up in your office, right? Exactly. I mean, look, it is. But I think, you know, look, I tell people people always, you know, I do so much on TikTok and Instagram and stuff like that. And I've been doing videos for a long time about divorces.

You know, a lot of the knocks and a lot of the guys especially will say, oh, this guy just wants to get your money. It's like, no, it's like, you know what? Do you represent men more or women? Your clientele is more ladies or men? I find that it's been about 50-50 for the longest time, but probably over the past handful of years, I've probably been representing more women than men.

You know, and I find for me, it's it dovetails more nicely with the way I approach these cases and really what I believe in, in that, like, you know, my experience is women tend to be more introspective. They tend to be more open to counseling. They tend to be more open to listen to you. And I think that, you know, as a professional in this space and wanting to help people, you know, have a have a healthy, successful life. It just it just works better that sort of relationship.

Are you divorced? No. Are you married? I am married. Okay. I am married to kids. How long have you been married? We've been married since 2007, September 1st, 2007. So how good is my math here? So roughly about 14 years. Now, do you rep yourself if anything were to happen or do you have colleagues that you would...

Or do you not even would not use a divorce attorney maybe? Now, this is funny because I don't even have a prenup. You know, this goes back, girls, to what we were saying. Like we could preach all we want. When we first met, I didn't need a prenup. She did. So that's what it is. Very accomplished woman, my wife. Yeah. So did you sign one?

No, no, we don't. We don't have a prenup because it's their first marriage. Right, right, right, right. We're beginners. Well, I mean, I had a prenup from the beginning. Yeah, I think it's funny because clients and even just really anybody, I think it's a good idea to have a prenup.

And people are surprised about the reasons why I think you should have a pre-nup. Why do you like pre-nups? I think you should have a pre-nup not for the conventional reasons why people typically do pre-nups. I think you should have a pre-nup because you have more disclosure. You have more open honesty. You're having tougher conversations before the marriage starts that many people are just not ready for.

You know, people don't want to talk about, hey, what happens if we get divorced? People don't want to talk about how much debt do you have? Like, where do you make your money? Don't you think that that affects the couple as far as...

where the relationship's gonna go. Like you said, there's a lot of disclosure, there's honesty, you have to be transparent. It's uncomfortable, I'm being honest. I mean, it's uncomfortable, then the man thinks that, oh, you just want my money. - But you know what else is uncomfortable?

which I've never experienced. But like that is also, I'm assuming super uncomfortable. So it's like we have to have these conversations regardless. Better to do it before you say I do. I think I feel like some couples today. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but baby, I think that people aren't getting married and couples like I have friends of mine. I'm going to be honest and they've been engaged and they are avoiding marriage because they don't want to sit down and work on a prenup. Well, that's their problem.

For many of us, the holiday season means more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more of your personal information in more places you can't control. It only takes one innocent mistake, even if it's not your mistake, to expose you to identity theft. Not to worry. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss by yourself.

even if you keep an eye on your bank and credit card statements. If your identity is stolen, your own U.S.-based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed. The last thing you want to do this holiday season is face drained accounts, fraudulent loans, or other financial losses from identity theft, always.

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.

Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age? That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.

An actual California Psychics customer. What brought me to California Psychics for the first time? Word of mouth. I've dealt with psychics for many, many, many years and normally have maybe one or two gifted out of a whole room of people. When you have important questions, California Psychics has answers.

Over 400 gifted psychics available 24/7, helping people just like you. And California Psychics makes this promise: Your psychic reading will be the best you've ever had. Satisfaction guaranteed. Your line is better. Your accuracy is 100% higher than the rest of them. Secure and confidential, California Psychics has given over 8 million readings. Need someone to listen? Just call 800-PREDICT. 800-P-R-E-D-I-C-T. And when you put this kind of people together with this kind of accuracy,

It's phenomenal to see and hear. Visit CaliforniaPsychics.com or download our app. Plus, new customers get 80% off. Call 800-PREDICT, 800-P-R-E-D-I-C-T. California Psychics, the psychic service more people trust. So I didn't have a prenup for my first marriage. I did not have a prenup. And, you know, I don't feel like I don't, you know, I don't, I don't.

I didn't feel like I needed one because I was so young. But, you know, if my, when my daughters, you know, find, you know, the love of their life, I'm definitely, definitely going to make them get prenups. But I did not, I did not have that. We're not, cause I was, you know, 26 years old, but yeah,

You know, it's just a totally different world now than it was then. Well, tell them your story, your story. I mean, I think that that's the dentist made that really good point that a prenup is kind of like what would happen if you get divorced. Yes.

And so it's basically the same kind of – it's a contract, and so it's basically the same kind of document. You can speak to that. Why don't you tell us the difference between a prenup and a new one? Yeah, but I mean here's the thing. I mean I think – look, prenups – I'll get into what prenup is and why it's important from a legal standpoint, but I think –

So prenups, I think, are important because you need to choose. Look, successful marriages, in my opinion, start off with choosing well. The finances are necessarily part of it. How do you make your money? How do you spend your money? When you marry someone,

you are extending this level of trust to this individual that Jesus, if they can't talk to you about what their debts are or how they make their money or like, you know, how many buildings do they have or what their credit score is. I mean, listen, you're like trusting your soul, your heart with this person and they can't trust you to tell you what they make or like, you know, these things, there needs to be full disclosure. There needs to be, because again, like I said,

successful, long lasting marriages start with choosing well. And I think the prenup is a tool. And open communication. Right. Right. That's it. Yes. Yes. Open communication from the get go on the things that are most you're right. And vulnerable and transparency and all of it. Like, but don't you think before marrying somebody that these conversations like it's common sense? Because if let's say you don't do it,

But your life is going to be a living. This person is going to be in your life no matter if whatever happened happened like for the rest of your life. And that is forever. You know, like that. It's just a nightmare situation. Yeah. Especially I can't speak to that. But yes. So, Dennis, are you more likely or less likely to get divorced the second time around if your marriage and if your first marriage ended in divorce? Yes.

Well, I think, look, we know second marriages fail to the tune of about 70-something percent. First marriages are roughly about 50%. What about the third marriage? What about no marriage? I don't remember that. It keeps on going, right? Right. I think it's gone up. I think part of the reason is we're...

We're worried about the wrong things when our relationship fails. We're worried about the stigma associated with it. We're worried about the shame. We're worried about protecting our kids. We're worried about what our friends are saying about us when really what we need to be worrying about is ourselves and getting to getting reacquainted with ourselves, taking the time to do that, taking the time to date and know, you know, know what you're looking for.

for. Yes, right. Right away? Cheryl doesn't agree with that. Dennis, isn't it also that when you get divorced after the first time and then you get married again, it's probably easier to get divorced the second time because you already know what

what's at stake. We can just copy the prenup. Like we can just make another copy and just change the name. That's a good point. That's not good. That's I mean, listen, I, I believe in, you know, I believe in divorce. I believe in, you know, if things aren't working out, I definitely believe in making better choices for yourself and for your family. A hundred percent. But I do also think that once you've done it,

You're going to do it again. You know, you're like, okay. I mean, nothing's forever. No, I know. Cheryl! Maybe. I mean, I think, look, I was always a proponent. Now, this is a divorce lawyer who was always a proponent who said, hey, you got to wait. You got to take time. You really got to heal yourself. You got to get to know yourself. Yes, I'm still... That's absolutely the way I feel. However...

You know, I've been over the past year or so, I've been doing some podcasts, talking with some people in this space. And one of the gentlemen who was divorced suggested he said, I actually started dating early on. He said, but I just went out and went for a cup of coffee. That's so typical. Just so typical. Yeah, but listen, no, no, no, no. This this particular individual was is very introspective about it.

Different than most guides in these sort of spaces. Because believe me, I get it. I totally understand where you're coming from. But his point was...

I needed to figure out what I was looking for. And part of rediscovering myself was knowing the type of person that I wanted to be with or did not want to be with. And he was thoughtful about it. I disagree. And I think that's part of it. This is the thing. You're never going to get anything from anybody else. Like you need to figure out yourself. True. Like.

Like you as the individual, because nobody is going to fill your cup up other than yourself. No one's going to fill in a void. And that is just the way it is. Right. So I agree. You to look and look and look, look, look like what are you? You're never going to be satisfied because you haven't filled yourself up with anything other than looking for someone to fill it for you. Yeah.

Yeah. I feel like a lot of men do that kind of stuff, Cheryl. They're like, okay, well, you know what? I'm just going to go look as an excuse. You know what's interesting is the recent dating, it's interesting because the guys that I've been dating who are, they're all like very nice guys, but they all say the same thing to me. They're like, I'm not the same as him. There are certain things I would never do and kind of putting it into my head that you

you know, what I was doing was wrong and that they're so great and that I'm so bad. And I'm like, wait a minute. Oh no, that's a red flag. My friends gaslighting me from my own experience. Like, yes, correct. That's exactly what's happening because I failed. Now you're going to make me worse about failing flag, red flag. You can't walk away from those relationships feeling like you're

Like you made a mistake, like you were to blame. You can't you can't because you never I mean, the point is, it's it's about not because I think it's societal in large part. And I think I do think to a certain degree it is specific to women and that they feel that sense of shame, that sense of responsibility for the failed relationships that in large part, from my experience, guys don't really feel like.

they don't see it they don't get it in the same way no it's because you don't want to get it we're all human like really it's all about self awareness is what we're saying it's also like they always talk about like a woman's heart everyone's like that was

That was like a woman is already a woman scorned. What about a man scorned? No, they have it. But like, do they ever take the time? I'm not talking generally, obviously, like there are men. I actually have met men that are very self-aware that want to continue to evolve because no matter if you want to or not, we're evolving. Right. And that's human nature. And if you say to me that there's no shame when it comes to like,

Any relationship, every female, male, non-binary, it doesn't matter. Like we all have feelings. You're just the difference is, is that we are saying it out loud to take the shame away. Because I believe when you say how you feel and you express it, especially whether it's podcasting or just talking to a friend, the shame does slowly strip away. But for men, they just continue on. Not all men. Some men don't admit it.

their feelings to themselves and just continue to numb, whether that's date other women, have sex with different women every single day, or maybe it's productivity that they're addicted to. You know, like it's just, there's so much you can do to numb.

That's like a certain personality trait and personality style in men. Not all men are like that. No. Because, you know, there are men that, you know, have a failed marriage and, you know, they are upset about it. Of course. You know, they get better. I feel like men need to have a woman more. Like we were talking about like how Kelly and I want to like meet, you know, like not meet. In this case, I'm, you know, I'm still with my husband Todd, but I'm just saying that I would never be alone. I'm just that kind of woman that I like to be in a relationship with a man. Mm-hmm.

And so what I'm trying to say is that there's a lot of men and I feel like men are needier that way that they need to, once they're done with their relationship or with their marriage, they also need to, to go out and find a woman. Like they can't be alone. I feel like men have a harder time being alone than women. But I have met men that could be alone too. It's rare.

But it happens. Right. I mean, they can, but they have like 10 women at the same time. So they may not have one woman, but they're like, you know, talking to 10 different women. And, you know, they're just like serial daters or whatever. Yes, we're built differently, I guess. Yeah, but I think that's right. I think when you say, I mean, when you use the phrase self-evaluate and evolve and improve self-awareness, right? Yeah.

I think that's the piece that's missing to a certain degree with guys and not all guys. Listen, there's no one size fits all with any of this. There is not. Everybody's their own individual and every relationship is its own thing. But I think that's one of the things, the vast majority of the guys that I deal with, they seem to miss like, and, and when you say like, Hey, but what about this? You could have done better. What about that? You could have worked on. It's like, Oh,

no, no, I'm always the bad guy. You know, what did you do wrong? What? Whoa, stop pointing to other people. Stop deflecting. Stop being defensive. Like just step back. And they always say like, there's a reason why you have two ears and one mouth, right? Cause you're supposed to do twice as much listening as you do talking. But I think a lot of times with guys, they're not good at that. And it's not every guy.

But on average, that's what I see. So like, just sit down, like shut up, just listen and like, like digest it and like be self-aware, right? Or self-evaluate. Go to an AA meeting. You're going to hear a bunch of men who,

who are taking accountability because you have to, that's part of the program that I'm in as well. Like you have to take accountability for your addiction, right? That's the only way to get better and to be sober and take everything one day at a time until you first point the finger at yourself. There is no way, you know, you're going down a slippery slope. So like, those are the types of men that when, you know, I go to meetings, like,

There are men out there like that. And that's not it's the sexiest thing in the world when a man takes accountability. When anybody I don't care what gender or non-gender, it is the sexiest thing. It shows confidence. It shows stability. It shows security for me, at least, I think. And when I have guys here like and complain like, oh, you know, there's no physical intimacy with my wife and this and that happens like like, but you're not responsible. You're not like you're not listening. You're not like

you know, like, come on, man. Do you think that that's one of the main causes in the cases that you see? Do you think it's one of like the big factors why people go apart or there's, you know, divorce? Lack of physical intimacy? Right. Yeah. Well, lack of any, obviously, any intimacy, emotional or physical. But I feel like I have, I know of people that have been married five, six, seven years. I mean, they've been married for years and they haven't been intimate for five, six, seven years. And

They're okay with it. I think that's a really good question because in 25 years of doing this, I think that's what I've gotten throughout. No physical intimacy for years and people living in it. What I've been getting over, say the past year to two years is people walking into my office and saying, we haven't had sex in five years. I can't live like that anymore.

I know it's crazy. I hear these stories also because, you know, I have a lot of friends. I own a beauty bar. And historically, I didn't hear that as much. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.

Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age? That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.

An actual California Psychics customer. What brought me to California Psychics for the first time? Word of mouth. I've dealt with psychics for many, many, many years and normally have maybe one or two gifted out of a whole room of people. When you have important questions, California Psychics has answers.

Over 400 gifted psychics available 24/7 helping people just like you. And California Psychics makes this promise: Your psychic reading will be the best you've ever had. Satisfaction guaranteed. Your line is better. Your accuracy is 100% higher than the rest of them. Secure and confidential, California Psychics has given over 8 million readings. Need someone to listen? Just call 800-PREDICT. 800-P-R-E-D-I-C-T. And when you put these kind of people together with this kind of accuracy,

It's phenomenal to see and hear. Visit CaliforniaPsychics.com or download our app. Plus, new customers get 80% off. Call 800-PREDICT, 800-P-R-E-D-I-C-T. California Psychics, the psychic service more people trust. Hey, instead of another ad break, let's take a break together. Tune out whatever is around you. Close your eyes if you can. And let's just sink into sound.

This mindful moment has been brought to you by Apple Music Chill. Listen now on Apple Music Radio. So Dennis, when they come into your office, what are the most important questions that people should ask considering a divorce? Like give us like three questions.

I mean, I think, look, I think with divorce lawyers, you need to, I would probably hang on from me. I would probably hang on. Is the lawyer like, like, look, there are, there are specific questions you can ask, but like a lot of times people don't even know what questions to ask. I mean, you can ask like, Hey, you know, what's going to happen with the house in the event of a divorce? Like what happens with my kids? What do I need to gather? What do I need to prove? But I think it's more about asking like,

It's more about preparing before you go into the office with the questions that you have off the top of your head and gauge what people's answers are, what the lawyer's answers are. You know, I feel like with lawyers, it's it's important to have a full picture. Right. So if you walk in to to, you know, work with a dentist or have somebody do, you know, a medical procedure or you walk in for anything, you're going to be analyzing what does the office look like?

How does the staff speak to me? How do they treat me? How attentive are they? When I talk to this lawyer, like, do they sound like they know what they're talking about? Because it's funny, when I first started practicing as a lawyer, I used to do consults, right? As you can imagine. And when I would do a consult, I, you know, I tell my boss, I've done three or four consults and nobody's hiring me.

And then when I started doing it longer, everybody was hiring me. And I came to the conclusion that you don't need to be a lawyer to know when a lawyer is good. You don't need to have any specialized legal knowledge because when somebody is good at something, they exude confidence. You can see it. You can feel it. It's an energy. So you got to look for that. And do they listen? Right. So.

Perfect example. I had a client that came into my office maybe about like, I don't know, like maybe three, four years ago. And they said, you know, I hired you. I said, because when I went into your competitor's office, while I was talking to him, he was texting on his phone to. Oh, hell no. You got to be kidding. Look.

Literally texting. Disgusting. Not only is that not a lawyer you would want to hire, but that's rude. It's just rude. Even if we were having a conversation at the coffee shop, I wouldn't be texting while I was talking to you. I had a mediator. I hired a mediator to organize my ex-husband and I because...

you know, first of all, I didn't want my, my children. So my biggest thing was the house, whatever money was not like, I was just that that wasn't what I was worried or concerned about. I was very concerned about my kids, um, and how things would be perceived for my kids. And my youngest daughter, she went to, they were, they, you know, they found out that, that, uh,

my ex-husband and I were getting divorced and they went in to talk to my youngest daughter and they said, "How are you?" And she goes, "Oh, your parents are getting divorced. How are you?" And she goes,

oh, my parents are separated. And she goes, everything's great. And they're like, no, no, no, your parents are getting divorced. And she's like, yeah, they're separated. They're not getting divorced. They're just, they're separated. She didn't know the difference because she was young. But then later on, she always says like, mom, I never even, both of them were like, I never even felt any of like the aftermath of a divorce because you just like, like literally just took over. Yeah.

Which was great for them, but really, really bad for me. It was really, really difficult for me. It was really difficult. Did you put them in therapy or-

I did not go to therapy. Or them, your kids, no? No, my kids did go to some therapy, but literally right after, I was like, how am I going to make money now that I'm going to be on my own with these two girls and they need to have education? What am I going to do? And so I literally went on Housewives back when it was a totally different game. And it was...

It was probably one of the worst decisions that I had made. I mean, there were so many great things that happened from being in health care. Did it pay you? Did it help? Yeah. No, there was a paycheck, but it was just I was not prepared enough.

emotionally for like, this is different. Like I talked to Cheryl and I like literally have cried in front of Cheryl. Like I'm like, this is like how I'm feeling. And, you know, she has a lot of empathy and she's, you know, and Alexi and I don't know each other that well, but I can, you know, I just from hearing her story, I feel comfortable talking to her. And obviously you're a lawyer and,

But you know, when I was on that show, I did not feel comfortable talking to them about anything. It's hard. I'm on that show, Kelly, as you know, and it is hard. There's just no camaraderie. And they were, you know, I've been lucky enough that I have a best friend online. But like when you did it, I felt like back in the day, right, Kelly, I felt the same because you know, our show started in 2010. I know you're started before. But with that being said,

back in the day, it was like everybody was so against each other. I think it's kind of a little better. It's still used to it was see that a lot awful, but I'm lucky enough that I have my best friend on the show. So like, I did not very lucky. He had no I literally knew Luann like for a second out of from a party. I didn't knew no one. So for me, just going into that, knowing that I needed to make money and knowing that I need to provide for my kids, and going into that,

after having a mediator, it was very stressful. So I kind of, I wish there was someone who can say like, men or women, like you're getting divorced, first of all, here are the questions to ask me. And then afterwards, like, what are you going to do to start your new life?

Well, everyone's situation is very different, though, Kelly. Everyone's situation is very different. When does somebody hire a divorce attorney? Do you do this like when you're like still technically married before you've made the decision to separate or what is your advice? I mean, I think, look, you talk to a divorce lawyer as early on as you can. I think that's the most important thing because, you know, and I tell clients when they go into lawyers. What does that mean as you're still living together?

Let's put it this way. If you've ever had the idea cross your mind of divorce, if you've ever said it in a conversation in anger or otherwise, you should talk to a divorce lawyer behind your back. Of course, people do it all the time. And I will tell you. So I'll share another story with you.

represented a stay-at-home mom, you know, God, maybe about 10 years ago now. She's in the office. Oh, he would never know I was here, blah, blah, blah. Find out throughout the course of the litigation two years later, he talked to a lawyer eight months earlier than she did.

So so when you think that they haven't spoken with anybody, this is part of the protect yourself first. Like, you know, what happens in New York and Dennis, you said that is that what happens is that a lot of people, they go and they talk to every single lawyer. And so they conflict them out.

That's a dirty trick. It really is. Why can't you just like sit down with your partner before going behind their back and having that conversation? You know, you're here encouraging. It's situational. Well, it is situational. Well, I mean, that sounds like it's pretty bad. I mean, I feel like if you have to leave, you have to go see an attorney and, you know, you can't, you haven't had that conversation with your spouse.

I think it's a betrayal. I honestly do. I mean, and for me, I mean, not a betrayal because it hasn't happened. But what I'm trying to say is if you feel the need that you have to go see an attorney before sitting down with your wife and

and having that conversation, just like you had it about the prenup. What if you can't have a conversation? Well, stand up. No, no, I don't mean it literal like that. I don't mean it literal. Like what if you've already tried to the point where like you've gone to couples therapy, but then let's say someone, it's the act of...

infidelity. Okay, let's just say that this is the situation. Well, then you're ready for divorce. And that's a deal breaker for you. But I think that you both should know, you know, and by the way, you okay, you cheated on me. So you know, we're going for divorce. And for the person, though, who makes the most money has to sometimes like, I think in California, at least I you have to almost hire the attorney for your spouse. Is that correct? Yeah.

Well, in New York state, I mean, you know, there's an award for attorneys. Yeah. But again, I think California may be the same, but I think, look, I think just, just to your point, just to your point,

If you're thinking about divorce and you're saying these things in conversations or it's crossing your mind, you should absolutely talk to them about the problems first. And if like you said, if they're in a position where they're that person where it's like, hey, I'm going to stonewall you or I'm going to place blame. You try, you get a professional involved. You maybe go to a marriage counselor, not maybe probably go to a marriage counselor or someone you feel like you can trust.

And if you... Because listen...

In my experience, especially when the women that I represent, that marriage has been over for years before they come into my office. It's usually like that. So they've tried and they've tried and they've tried and they've tried and there have been conversations or they get stonewall or there's worse yet there's domestic violence like. No, I feel like you should just tell the person, by the way, we're getting divorced and I'm going to an attorney. That's just me personally. Do women or men hire first? Like what are the stats there? Like,

I don't know the specific stats on that. Women. I've actually read women are the ones that file more than men. I would probably say there's a couple of different things. Yes, Alexa, you're 100% right. Women file more than men to the tune of about 65%, 70% or so. But the funny part about it is men...

Most of those same women have given me signs throughout that the relationship has been over for years. I think a lot of times. Right. Well, right. OK, so, Dennis, let me ask you something. Does trial separation always equal divorce or do you see like people reconciling?

I see people reconciling more frequently midstream of divorce litigation than I do in trial separations. The trial separations I find is one partner knows they want to be divorced. And the only way they're going to get the other side to forgive the expression, but play ball with the process.

to not make it long drawn out is to say, oh, well, we may get back together again. It's just a trial separation. It's the only way they can sell it to them. In fact, I had a conversation about that just today with one of my associates about a case that we have. And look, people do what they need to do because every situation is specific. It's its own thing. They do what they need to do to get through it. And Kelly, as you said, these are tough processes. There's no perfect path or

right answer. You just do the best you can to get through it. You know, you want to try to get out to come out on the other side with, you know, your kids intact because I find with ladies that tends to be their focus like more than the guys. Like kids are everything and they should be. And yourself always comes second, unfortunately, but yourself too. My dog comes first so I get it. I have three of my own so I get it. This is a great place for us to take a pause. So

Do you guys have any questions about divorce? Are you guys looking for advice now that your relationship or marriage is over? Call us or email us. Follow us on socials. All the information will be in the show notes. So make sure to rate and review the podcast. I do part two and I heart radio podcast where falling in love is the main objective.

We know you're uncertain about psychics. Is this fortune teller you found on the forum legit? Your one true love is... Me! That's why California psychics reject 98% of the psychics who apply to work with us. We guarantee, if your rating isn't life-changing, it's free. New customers receive 20 minutes for just $20. So experience the joy of certainty at CaliforniaPsychics.com

With Kroger brand products, you can get all of your favorite things this holiday season because our proven quality products come at exceptionally low prices. And with a money back quality guarantee, every dish is sure to be a favorite. From sweet sugar cookies and holiday ham to that perfect slice of pie. Whether you shop delivery, pickup or in store, Kroger brand has all your favorite things. Kroger, fresh for everyone.

I'm Dr. Laurie Santos. I'm a psychology professor at Yale, and I started to notice that a lot of my students weren't all that happy. So I created a new class. Welcome everybody to Psychology and the Good Life. It became the biggest class in the history of Yale. I'm a little bit surprised to see as many of you are here as are here, but that's great. But it's not just my students who need to understand the science of well-being. And that's why we launched the Happiness Lab, so you can learn about it too.

Are you ready to feel happier? Head to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you like to listen. Brought to you by Colgate Total. Be dentist ready.