I Choose...Letting People In with Karamo
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Hi, this is Jenny Garth from the I Choose Me podcast. If you're managing a challenging mental condition, weekly therapy can sometimes feel like it's not enough. You may be looking for a way to spend more focus time on you. That's where Amend Mental Health Treatment Center comes in. I recently took a tour at Amend in beautiful Malibu, California, and the facility is so gorgeous and serene.

The dedicated team of doctors and therapists with deep clinical expertise were amazing. Designed to give you the time and space you need to have that breakthrough. They have two unique locations in Malibu that surround you in natural beauty and pure calm. Find out more at amendtreatment.com slash start. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water?

Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold. Butter? Yep. Chocolate ice cream? Sure thing. Barbecue sauce? Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide Pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide. Kroger brand products exclusively at Fry's have the great taste you'll celebrate.

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Get ready for a full month of fiesta y cultura because it's time for Viva Tucson. Let's celebrate Hispanic Heritage Month como nunca antes in true Tucson style. From September 15th to October 15th, join us for comida, musica y eventos that you won't find anywhere else. Our rich history and traditions make the Old Pueblo the perfect place para celebrar y aprender.

Mark your calendar so you don't miss out on this celebración. Visita visittucson.org slash viva. Okay, want to know where to find brands on brands on brands this fall? At Ross. Mm-hmm. They've got big savings on the latest fall styles. Seriously, you'll find the brands you want at prices you'll love. At Ross. Yes, for less. You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth.

Hi everyone, welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about the choices we make and where they lead us. I am so excited for my guests today. Not only do they have a huge heart, but they are someone who is putting so much good back out into the world and spreading a message of love and positivity and I'm all about that.

My guest today is known for being a part of the Fab Five on Netflix's Emmy-winning Queer Eye. He's an author, an LGBTQIA plus activist, and he is the host of his very own talk show.

Please welcome Karamo to the I Choose Me podcast. I'm very excited to talk to you. So thank you very much. I'm very excited to talk to you. Do you remember the last time we saw each other? Of course, Wheel of Fortune. Wheel of Fortune. Celebrity Wheel of Fortune. Yes, of course. You thought I was going to forget that? Ha ha ha!

I mean, standing next, first of all, standing next to one of the most iconic and most beautiful women in the world. I'm a huge fan of you. But also like we were on there and I was like, what the fuck is going on right now? I can. This was one of the most fun days because you were struggling so hard and we were trying to send you like the answers. Struggling. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. It was the pressure. It was the pressure. That's what it was.

Oh my God, I felt for you. But anybody who hasn't seen that episode of us on Wheel of Fortune, you have to check it out because it will make you laugh. It's the best. How have you been? Very well. Very, very well. Such an exciting time in my life and yours. Yes, tell me. What's making you exciting? I want to hear. I know it's about when you're interviewing me, but I'm always like curious about it. Yeah, I just have a lot of really fun new things happening.

At this age and this stage in my life, I never really saw it coming. And it's just all happening. And I love it. That's exciting. Congratulations. That's really good. I listened to your book over the weekend. I couldn't read it. I had to listen to it. But I really enjoyed it. I got to know so much about not just you, but the culture that you grew up in. And it was so personal and honest and candid. And

And I know that was a few years ago now that you did that book, right? Yeah. But it still all applies. Yeah. It was the journey to where you are today is so layered. Yeah. Yeah.

For those of us that don't know, can we just kind of like rewind to the beginning? Of course, of course. Talk about like you grew up in Houston. I did. And I would just love to hear about your household and your relationship with your parents a little bit. Sure. So I grew up in Houston, Texas. I'm the son of immigrants. So I'm first generation American. My parents are Jamaican and Cuban. Yeah.

And it was a tough childhood because my father was not a great father. So I grew up in a house where my mother was abused. He wasn't responsible with money. So we moved constantly, constantly, constantly moved. I don't think I ever stayed in a place longer than a year. Honestly, just moving, moving, moving. And then it got worse. We were in a hotel for a little bit, just moving.

Now I realize we were homeless at the time. I thought it was like a fun little hotel. You know, we're all staying in twin beds. You know, it's so crazy how you process things as a kid. And then as an adult, you're like, that was a mess. But yeah, but there was you know, there was it was it was it was it was difficult childhood because I had these intersections of my personality that just never seemed to fit with anywhere I lived or anywhere I was.

So it was my father did this thing that he thought he was doing the best where he he always moved into an apartment complex that was on the edge of whatever rich neighborhood that we know we can be near. And the reason it was because he wanted to be in the best school districts.

And so those school districts were predominantly white because of the income. And so now here I am. We're in the apartment complex next to the rich neighborhood. So I'm going to the good school, but I don't have the money they have. I also am. And my name is Karamos. That's completely different from everyone else who is John, Kevin, Bill, Jason, whatever.

Then, like, I tell people, like, they would bring lunches and they had peanut butter jelly sandwiches and I'd be bringing oxtail or curry goat because it was whatever we ate the night before. Like, imagine a little sixth grader bringing in food to microwave. It just was all a train wreck, you know? And now I look back and I laugh and I think it's humorous. But in the moment, it was like, what in the hell? So it just seemed like I never just fit.

But even with that happening and always having the hard things at home, I just still felt like there's going to be something better. I just always was optimistic. I'm just an optimistic person. I just always have been. This can't be it. There has to be something more. There has to be something more. There has to be a better life. And that's sort of how I lived my childhood into my adulthood. And what's your relationship with your parents like now?

Oh, well, my mother and I, so I'm the youngest. I have all sisters and mother and I are very close. We hang all the time. I actually just moved my mom to California a couple of years ago. So I bought our house out in pretty bodies from California and Woodland Hills, which is nice. And it's just come out all the time. My father and I have had a tumultuous relationship. Um,

because at the age of 15, I let him in regarding my sexuality. I don't use the term coming out.

It's actually a term that I've been spending the last couple of years trying to destroy. I love this, by the way, because I've never felt comfortable saying coming out. That phrase just didn't feel right. It's antiquated. I think there was a time in the LGBTQIA community where it was empowering. It's like, you're not going to force me to hide. I am going to be. But now it's like we're forcing people out.

to make these grand announcements to people who don't matter to them and don't have any bearing on their lives. And we're also forcing people to say to someone, you now have the power to accept or deny me based on me coming out to you. And that's actually not the process. The process is I'm going to let you in because I trust you and I love you.

And if I don't want to let you in, it doesn't mean I'm ashamed of who I am. It doesn't mean that I am not okay with me. It means that the same way I don't let everyone in my front door, I don't need to let you into my personal life because you're not worthy of that space. Or maybe you're not emotionally or mentally intelligent enough to handle it. And again, it's your choice. It's my choice. It's my choice. You don't get the power to accept or deny me because I have already accepted myself. Right. Right.

And so I left my family and my family when I was 15 regarding my sexuality. And my father had an adverse reaction. He just couldn't reconcile his relationship with his son, with his relationship, with his religion. And it became abusive. He didn't, you know, he didn't have memory in high school. He would just walk past me for days and not talk to me. And, you know, it was abusive. And then, yeah,

And then once I, you know, graduated from high school, I was like, deuces. I don't need you in my life. You know, I'm gone. And we didn't speak for about, I don't know, 13 years, 14, 15 years.

We didn't speak, no contact at all. And during that time I forgave him. Like I'm one of these people who I don't hold on to grudges. I kind of like, it's, there's a nature in me that I don't know where it came from, but I'm just like, I don't want to hold on to like your BS. I don't want to hold onto it. Like I'm able to release it pretty easily. That's lucky. Yes, it is. I help so many people who don't know how to do that. And I'm always trying to give them the tools to, and like for some reason, my entire life I've been able to. And so I,

It wasn't until about maybe six years ago, he came back around and he wrote me a letter and said, I'm so sorry for the way I treated you. I'm so sorry for not loving you as a parent. And he asked for my forgiveness. And I was like, I forgave you years. I was like, I forgave you years ago. You've been holding onto this. I moved on. And so now we have somewhat of a relationship. You know, it's growing. But yeah, that's me and my parents and my family. Yeah, that makes me feel so good. I'm happy that you...

That he came to that place. Yeah. Yeah. On his own journey, his own journey. And, you know, I think what I've learned from that, that I try to teach people is, you know, setting the boundaries and being clear about you're not going to be allowed to hurt me, allowed him the space to make a choice for the type of person he decided he should be and allowed him to say, because I realized I don't, I don't want to force anybody to learn. Right. Right.

It's not my job. I'm open to helping somebody grow, but I can't help you learn about the person that you want to be. And I say that both professionally and just as a human being. I can't. You have to make the choice that you want to learn. Yeah. You know, like I can be blue on the face telling you to read this.

book, learn about this, understand. And until you make that choice, no. But once you make that choice, I'm going to be there with open arms to help you to grow, to help you to understand how you can use that knowledge to be better and to be a better human being for yourself and other people.

And because I let him go, he made the choice to learn. And then I was there to help him grow. And he's growing into a better man that he's ever been in his 75 years. He's finally turning into the man that maybe he should have been when we were all younger. Yeah.

Well, I mean, thank God he's there now. But yeah, sorry for those tears. Yeah, thank God. You are a beautiful, open gay man. And I think that maybe one of the bravest, scariest, liberating moments in any LGBTQ plus person's life is that I choose me moment when you choose me.

to open up to the world or to your inner circle about your identity and that you choose to let those people in like we were talking about. And you did that when you were a teenager, you said. What was that like for you? And who was the first person you let in? I think it was just a kind of a group at high school. I didn't have any choice. The reason I let people in at 15 wasn't, it was just because all of my peers were

and I wanted to date and they were all talking about crushes. And I, I've always, anyone who knows me personally knows I have an honest filter. Like, I mean, I like, I just am just like, I can't, I just am not able to hold it in. I'm able to. And so I'm like, you all are talking about who you like. I want to talk about who I like. And the guy that I had a crush on was, his name was John Brown. And,

And he was just beautiful. And we sat next to each other because my name was Karamo Brown. And he was like 6'4 and gorgeous. And I just thought he was the most gorgeous person. So I just spit it out. I was like, is anybody else obsessed with John Brown? Because I'm a brown. And so it just became that conversation. So it was like, you know, it was just out of that teen...

running in that I was like, I cannot. I can't. I can't. I got to say it. Oh, my God. I really wish that I grew up with you. We would have been very good friends. Oh, my God. You and I. Oh, my God.

It would have been a good time. It would have been trouble. It would have been trouble. I've been thinking about something, and I'm sure if I have questions about this subject, other people do. So maybe this will be useful to some people. I have someone in my life whom I love very much that is gay, but we've never really talked about it, not like really gotten deep and spoken about it. Yeah. And I don't know why. It wasn't like...

It may be there were times when I avoided the conversation and everybody knew, but nobody was talking about it. So I didn't want to be the one that talked about it. And I'm the baby of the family and it just didn't feel like my place. Yeah. But how, I mean, for anybody out there who might be struggling with the same thing, like what advice do you have for them?

for me to start that conversation? And why should I start that conversation? Well, I think the importance of starting that conversation is letting somebody know that you're a safe space. I think still, even in 2024, oh my gosh, look at your little dog. What's his or her name? This is Sandy. Hi, Sandy.

Say hi. I wish you could see my two, my feet right now. They're Leah and me. They're both... Isn't it crazy how they just stay right beside you? I have three dogs in here right now. No, but I think even in 2024, we forget that this world is still, unfortunately, an unsafe space in some places for LGBTQIA people. And I think...

The more people know that there's people in their life that want to be a safe space for them, that want to be there for them, want to make sure that they're advocating for them, being an ally for them. It's important. I think it's important for any one of us. And so when you ask that question of like, why should I want to be curious? Because it lets the other person know that I want to learn and I want to know that I can be there to support you, to make sure that you always feel seen. It's an important thing. We all want that, you know? Yeah.

I equated to kind of what I'm trying to do in this space in my life. I realized that I was one of these gay guys before that had a lot of girl. I have tons of girlfriends, but I would always make comments about like lady parts. Like, Oh, I don't want to see it. Oh, whatever. And I realized one day I was like, this is so fucking, excuse me for cussing, but I was like, this is so like,

filled with misogyny and like, like the fact that I'm like ill to the female body and I'm like supposed to be an ally to women. And like when I'm having straight men, I don't,

I don't know enough about the female body and I know about their feelings, but I don't know about like how to support them in conversations that I was like, I want to stop doing that. And so I've been in this space about learning about the female body. Like you can't even know I'm digressing a little bit. Oh my gosh. The rabbit holes in the books that I'm going down to learn, but I'm doing this because I need my girlfriends to know that when it comes to their health and the things they're feeling and how they're changing, um,

that I'm a safe space, that we don't have to just talk about boys, cocktails, going out. You know, like, I mean, we do have deeper conversations, but I want them to know that when they're talking about what's important to them and how they feel, that I'm there and that I've taken the time to learn and read. And I think to your point in your conversation, by saying, I want to learn and I want you to know that I'm here for you,

that there's something that's special about that. But I think the way to approach that conversation, the second part of your question is,

Is this letting the people in your life know that I'm so willing, you know, you don't even have to bring up sexuality or gender or, you know, gender if you don't want to. Maybe I don't know what that relationship is, but privately being around them and saying, I'm I'm so open to talking. I'm so open to being here for you. I'm so open to just being a place that you can talk to.

they're going to get the clue that you want to be there to have conversations and that allows you to organically find it. But I think just the desire and what you're asking is such an important thing because what you're essentially saying is I want to be the best ally and support for people

who might not already have one. - Right, right. Yeah, I'm very in tune with keeping the conversation present and open, you know, and being accepting of, I've just, I'm always been accepting. There's no question for me, like. - Yeah, yeah. - And so I have always just accepted it, but I do think that verbalizing that and just clarifying what you're talking about, that I do care enough about you

To want you to know that it's safe to talk to me about anything. Yeah, about anything. Exactly. I like that.

Hi, this is Jenny Garth from the I Choose Me podcast. If you're managing a challenging mental condition, weekly therapy can sometimes feel like it's not enough. You may be looking for a way to spend more focus time on you. That's where Amend Mental Health Treatment Center comes in. I recently took a tour at Amend in beautiful Malibu, California, and the facility is so gorgeous and serene.

The dedicated team of doctors and therapists with deep clinical expertise were amazing. Designed to give you the time and space you need to have that breakthrough. They have two unique locations in Malibu that surround you in natural beauty and pure calm. Find out more at amendtreatment.com slash start. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water?

Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold. Butter? Yep. Chocolate ice cream? Sure thing. Barbecue sauce? Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide Pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new Coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's

If it's got to be clean, it's got to be tied. Get ready for a full month of fiesta y cultura because it's time for Viva Tucson. Let's celebrate Hispanic Heritage Month como nunca antes in true Tucson style from September 15th to October 15th. Join us for Comida.com.

Música y eventos that you won't find anywhere else. Our rich history and traditions make the Old Pueblo the perfect place para celebrar y aprender. Mark your calendars so you don't miss out on this celebración. Visita visittucson.org slash viva.

Okay, want to know where to find brands on brands on brands this fall? At Ross. They've got big savings on the latest fall styles. Seriously, you'll find the brands you want at prices you'll love. At Ross. Yes for less.

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Take some time to take care of yourself and your family this fall. Shop in-store or online and stock up on items from your favorite self-care and baby care brands. Now, through November 5th, get great savings on self-care items like Dove Antiperspirant, Depend Underwear for Men, Colgate Toothpaste, and Poise Pads.

Over here at our house, my family and I are fans of your shows. We're just basically Karama fans over here.

Yeah, no denying it. You've just finished filming the upcoming season of Queer Eye, which is season nine, right? Season nine, yes, in Vegas. And I'm so excited for people to see this. That's got to be a good season. I'm going to tell you it's a good season because Vegas is one of those places where

That you realize outside of the strip, there is so much heart. And unfortunately, there's so much hurt because this transient city, people come and they. So one of the people, we're not going to talk about this yet, but I can share a little bit. There's a person that we're helping who who worked at her job for 25 years. And then that job just told her they were closing randomly.

and 25 years wow and this is this is that her whole life changed literally a week before we were going to help her

Wow. Perfect timing. Perfect timing. Perfect timing. I mean, for her to grow with you. Wow. Yes. Everything for her to be able to grieve the change in her life, understand how she's going to have to move forward, believing in herself again. Also just financially, like for us to be able to come in and say, here is some support as you're about to go through this new change. We just, I just fell in love with the people who live outside of the strip of Vegas and

I was like, this town is more than we give it credit for. And so I'm so excited to see it. We also have a new cast member, Jeremiah. Yes. What happened? Bobby left the show. You and Bobby are close. We're close. Are you still close? Yeah, me and Bobby are like best friends. He lives down the street, so we see each other all the time. Oh, perfect. I love that. I've had that happen where you're on a long-running show and then someone that you love, your friend, your castmate, leaves. Yes.

And I know that can be difficult ground. And like, how did you navigate that friendship with someone when your working relationship ends? Because I think a lot of people can relate to that no matter what their career is. Yeah. For me, like I, I,

I believe that any friendship. So I have people who I work with that I'm friends with at work and I have friends. And this is not on Queer Eye. Queer Eye is one of the shows I get along with everyone. So I'm friends with everyone. I say to say, I, in other spaces, I've had friends who are work friends and I have friends that I know that I want to build a relationship with. And I think sometimes people don't have that clear distinction. And so when things happen and transitions happen, it becomes muddy and weird because some people don't know where they stand. Yeah.

We've never had a real transparent conversation because it's hard because the assumption is because we've spent eight hours a day together for four years, five years, 20 years that we know each other. And sometimes you realize you don't, you know, a version of me that's at work, you know, this part of me, but I've never let you into the rest of my life.

And so for me, maintaining the relationship was more so about being an empathetic listener. You know, I tell people all the time, my granny used to tell me, you have two ears and one mouth, which means you're supposed to be doing one of those things double time. And the thing you're doing double time is listening.

And so during this transition, I realized my job was not to run my mouth. It was to listen to how everyone is feeling. Like, tell me how you're feeling and know that I'm a space that is not trying to solve it, not trying to be a solution, but just wants you to know that you're being heard.

Because I think that sometimes in transition, people don't feel heard. And when you don't feel heard, that's when the feelings of anxiety, of loneliness, of isolation pop up. Because you feel like I'm on this island by myself. And so what helped my transition with Bobby is that he always knows he's heard. He's always felt heard. And he knows that I'm listening.

And that I'm not here to judge his choices or anyone else's choices. I'm here just to listen and let him know that I'm here for him. And, you know, one of the things that I love about what Bobby does is like, like he gives me a call, like when we were shooting and he's like, I hope it's going great. I hope the season's awesome. I hope this is happening. And I'm like, that just shows the character of, you know, he's like, I hope the guys are having a good time. And it just shows that for each of us, you know, like,

No matter what, we understand that there's a bigger piece, which was helping people. And you just still want that to be good. Yeah. I appreciate. Right. How is it working with your new castmate, Jeremiah? Jeremiah is one of the most, have you ever met Jeremiah or Nate? I've met Nate. I don't know, but I think I met Jeremiah on a plane once. Yes. Oh my gosh. You have all of them.

He's one of the sweetest, most honest people I've ever... Dear, kind. And also what he brought to this season, and if I can be really transparent with you, is that you know this from working on a long-running show. After a while, it becomes a routine. You know, everyone knows what they're doing and everyone knows what their role, and it becomes very... Having Jeremiah there...

made me see the show like how I saw season one. Oh, that's so good. Because I had someone there who from the first day, I remember we walked into a house on the very first episode of season nine. We walked to the house and Jeremiah, as we were walking out, we were all deciding what we were going to do, started crying.

And he was so tearful. And I was like, I turned to him and I was like, baby, what's wrong? And he was like, well, this is so thoughtful. Y'all are being so thoughtful about what you're about to do for this person. Because a lot of people don't realize, like, we really are thoughtful. We really think about it. You know this. We really figure out what we're going to do to help them. And we tell the producers and the producers then support what we've said, how we're going to help them. And so, yeah.

He was like crying. He was like, wow, this is not just something where, you know, you get on camera and then you walk away. Y'all are really huddled up talking about what's going to be best for this person to have the best life. And I was like, yeah, baby, we do. And it just, it just gives you this sort of like reinvigorated and like, and so, and he works so hard this season. Sorry, I'm laughing at Jeremiah so much, but he works so hard that it made us even work even harder.

because he was fresh and we wanted to match him and like his excitement. And so our excitement all went up too. Not saying we weren't excited, but like. He can lose its vigor after a while when it becomes like. So we're used to it. We know. Formula. We've seen the formula. We've seen the magic. We know. And with him there, like,

Every episode in season nine felt like every episode in season one. Oh, that's great. Those fresh eyes. Fresh eyes. Inspired that. Yeah. Every moment. And which was beautiful. I'm excited. I'm excited to be able to see this because I'm like, I'm like, we haven't been like this. Patting my own stuff on the back like this since season one or two. Like where you're just in it. Like.

Everyone was staying over hours, hours and hours over. Like when we did like season one and two and three, where we're like, I would be sitting there like really digging and having conversations for hours upon hours and now coming back and we just did that. And I'm like, okay, we're, thanks Jeremiah. Thank you. Oh, good. Fresh energy is always good. Always good. For anything. For anything, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Hi, this is Jenny Garth from the I Choose Me podcast. If you're managing a challenging mental condition, weekly therapy can sometimes feel like it's not enough. You may be looking for a way to spend more focus time on you. That's where Amend Mental Health Treatment Center comes in. I recently took a tour at Amend in beautiful Malibu, California, and the facility is so gorgeous and serene.

The dedicated team of doctors and therapists with deep clinical expertise were amazing. Designed to give you the time and space you need to have that breakthrough. They have two unique locations in Malibu that surround you in natural beauty and pure calm. Find out more at amendtreatment.com slash start. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water?

Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold. Butter? Yep. Chocolate ice cream? Sure thing. Barbecue sauce? Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide Pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new Coldzyme technology. Just remember, if

If it's got to be clean, it's got to be tied. Get ready for a full month of fiesta y cultura because it's time for Viva Tucson. Let's celebrate Hispanic Heritage Month como nunca antes in true Tucson style. From September 15th to October 15th, join us for comida, musica y eventos that you won't find anywhere else. Our rich history and traditions make the old pueblo the perfect place para celebrar y aprender.

Mark your calendars so you don't miss out on this celebración. Visita visittucson.org slash viva. Okay, want to know where to find brands on brands on brands this fall? At Ross. Mm-hmm. They've got big savings on the latest fall styles. Seriously, you'll find the brands you want at prices you'll love. At Ross. Yes for less.

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Take some time to take care of yourself and your family this fall. Shop in-store or online and stock up on items from your favorite self-care and baby care brands. Now, through November 5th, get great savings on self-care items like Dove Antiperspirant, Depend Underwear for Men, Colgate Toothpaste, and Poise Pads. And

And for the little ones, stock up on Huggies Snug and Dry Diapers and Huggies Little Movers Diapers. Offer ends November 5th. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.

Talk about fresh energy. You had your father, too, incredible young man. Your journey to fatherhood happened in kind of a surprising, somewhat shocking way. A little bit. A little shocking. A little bit. How did you find out you were Jason's father? Then Christian came into your life. Yes, yes, yes. So I...

I have only had, everyone's adult here, had sex with one girl. Right. She was my best friend. We were best friends since we were in seventh grade, beginning of seventh grade. And she had a boyfriend in ninth grade who was a senior and she was going to lose his virginity to him and she didn't want to be bad. And so she asked me if we could practice together.

She knew I was gay. Yeah, I was like, okay, yeah, sure, this makes sense. We're 15, so I would practice. And I mean, she knew I was gay, but it was like, I was safe. You were safe, yeah. I was a guy she could be weird with and vulnerable with, and she wasn't, she couldn't be that with her boyfriend, but she could be. So we skipped school and we tried. It lasted, no joke, six seconds at max speed.

And I literally sat on the side of the bed and I apologize to her now for this. And we have a good joke. But at the moment, I was like on the edge of the bed like, no, I don't want to do that ever again. No, I don't want to do that ever again. That was probably a little hard for her to hear. Hard for her. And like, that's why I apologize and we laugh about it now. But I was like, I took your first moment away. Like you would have had a better shot with him where it would have been.

special and he would have held you and he was your boyfriend like who's to know yeah who's to know but i'm like you definitely didn't have a good good it wasn't good with the gay guy you we definitely know me on the side of the bed rocking holding myself a blanket was not the first good look for it and so she you know we laughed about it we stayed friends and then at the end of school year she moved away

And this is, you know, I'm 43, about to be 44. So this is 1995. There was no cell phones like there are today. There was no Instagram or social media. So when someone moved, if you didn't have their home phone number or mailing address, you know, like they were gone. Yeah. And I went on with my life. I went on with high school and I just, she, I thought about her, but she was, you know, she just was a kid that moved away. Yeah.

And then when I was 25 years old, I got a stack of papers for back child support. I was living in California at this point for this kid I didn't know. And if I can be honest with you,

I thought I was being punked because I was on MTV's Real World when I was after undergrad. I was 23 years old. And I thought that MTV was doing like some punked of the gay guy, like let's punk the gay guy that he has a kid. And so when I saw these papers on my doorstep, I thought that Ashton Kutcher was in my house. You thought he was just going to pop out? Yeah, I thought it was like, I thought like someone was pranking me. Like, why? Why would I ever think that was the last time I'd ever saw a girl or like did with a girl?

And this is years now, a decade. I'm like, there's no way that I have a kid. So Ashton Kutcher is in my house. They're going to prank me. I literally went down to my car and changed clothes into a new outfit. Because I wanted to look good. Yeah, I want to look good for Ashton Kutcher. I got to. And I walked in the house. And if you would have saw the performance I had when I walk in that house, like I was.

Oh, my God.

Wow. And it blew my mind. And I immediately went back to Texas to confirm paternity. That took about two weeks. They confirmed the paternity and they gave me her address. And I went to her house and I showed up on her doorstep.

Same way the papers showed up on mine. And when I opened the door, she was shocked because she didn't come after me for back child support. She had applied for benefits for her other children. She had had, she had five children total and she had applied for food stamps. And because she had put me on the birth certificate, the state came after me for the benefits she was receiving. So when I showed up on her doorstep, she was shocked. Everybody was shocked. Everyone was shocked.

And in that moment, realizing she was shocked, any anger that I had went away because I realized she wasn't being malicious. She was just a 15-year-old who was trying to make the best decisions. And the first thing she said to me was, I knew one of us had a chance of having a good life and I wanted it to be you because you were always so kind to me. And that's sort of why she didn't tell me. And when you hear that, knowing the life she had, which was an abusive family, she

I just, I forgave her and we became best friends immediately. And then like later that day, she was like, you want to meet your son? He's going to be home to school in three hours. And. Wow. That must have blown your mind. Oh my gosh, girl. I was like 25 and a 10 year old, a nine year old walking home. I'm like, what am I about to do right now with this? Like, no. Yeah. I mean, but yeah,

I know I can tell for you that being a dad has just given you such purpose and meaning in your life. Having, finding out my son, um,

And then within six months, I petitioned for full custody with her support because she had five kids, 25 years old. You know, she was struggling. She had a graduate in high school. So, you know, she had to drop out because she's a teen mom. And so it was my way of saying, I'm doing well. I'm done with college. My family's doing well now. Like, let me support you.

And then within that time period, her other son was being molested and the state was going to remove the kids out of the house. And so I...

said, well, I was a safe placement because I was licensed in the state of Texas. And so he was going to stay with me for six weeks while they did the investigation. Six weeks turned into six months, six months to a return to a year. And then one day he walked in the room and he called me dad. And all of a sudden I realized I was a father of two and he was doing great. So I asked her for, if I could take custody of him.

She said yes. And when I tell you she said yes, this was with, this wasn't an easy yes for her. I say that now in like hindsight, but in the moment she was grappling, like, am I being a bad mom? Right.

She knew that I would keep them close. She knew that I would keep them safe. And so I became this father of two by 26. Like a 10-year-old and a 7-year-old. And it was like the weirdest thing. With just no gradual buildup to where they were. It was like overnight, deep end. Which I think I liked that in my life. And so I, yeah, they saved my life because...

I was dealing with my own issues from my father, like I told you about, of him being abusive to my mother and him being abusive to me that I had never processed. I had forgiven him, but I had never processed the pain. And having kids, it made me realize that I, first of all, want to break that generational curse. I want to break that cycle of abuse.

It was so important to me. But breaking that cycle of abuse made me focus on the things that happened to me. Like when I wouldn't react the same way to my kids that my father reacted to me, it made me then process, well, why did he react to me then? And I needed clarity. And it made me start digging and healing myself in a way that I wouldn't have done if I wasn't a parent making better decisions. Right. Did you instinctually...

parent the way you were parented? Like in the beginning? - No, I knew because it was so chaotic, my childhood, that I knew that I had to do the opposite.

So everything was the opposite of what happened in my childhood. So for instance, like the minute I got there, we moved into a place and we were in that same place. I was like, you're not moving around. You're going to be in the same home and this is going to be your bedroom. And you're going to put, this is going to sound like the smallest things, but I was like, you get to put posters on the wall. Because for me, no wall ever had anything on it because I didn't know how long I was going to be there. So it was important that they knew that that was their room.

It just, I, you know, I didn't, I got hit because we, you know, we were spanked and beat. And so for them, I was like, there's, I'm never going to, there's always going to be a conversation, you know, like it wasn't gentle parenting. So I wasn't like, why do you feel this way? It was still stern. I was still a stern dad, but it was like,

I'm going to talk to you. You know, you're 11 years old, so I can have a conversation with you. Do you understand the impact of the decision? Do you understand what's going on? And now do you understand there's a consequence? The consequence is I'm taking this. You're going to be in your room. You're not going anywhere. And these are the things that are going to happen. And so, and now like I, with my kids, like,

They're not fearful of me because they never got hit by me. They never they were never screamed at in that way. You know what I mean? Like, and so I just did the opposite of what I had, how I was treated. And it healed them while also helping me to understand how to heal.

So interesting how your journey taught you so much about how you didn't want to be. I think a lot of people have that. You provided them with that structure and that discipline that's so vital to being a parent, but also the acceptance and the love and the communication and the encouragement. Yeah. That's a really important balance because you don't want to lean too hard on either direction. Yeah.

Yeah. You want to incorporate both of those, all of those things. Agreed. Yeah. Having them feel safe enough to talk to me was paramount because I never felt safe enough to talk to my parents in my childhood. I could never open up to them about anything I was feeling or going through. It just wasn't-

I saw the episode where you and Jason talked on your show about overcoming his struggle with addiction and that traumatic experience that you went through of finding him and learning about his addiction. Probably the one time when he wasn't communicative with you about what was going on with him. Yeah, yeah. That was hard. So during the pandemic, I found my son overdosed.

And I guess, so this is what the problem is that I've talked about this before. I put my child in a box because he was the good child that I never had to worry about. Jason has always been the responsible child. He's always been...

I could count on him to be where he said he was going to be at the time he said he was going to be when he was in high school. He could stay out a little later because I knew that he wasn't doing anything. Like he's always been that. And his brother, Chris was always the one that I had to pay a little bit more attention to. It was like who I had to focus on a little bit more. And because I put Jason in that box, it didn't allow me to see any signs of him having an addiction because I

When he slept in a little bit later, I was like, well, it's just because he's working hard. I would fill in the blank for him because I put him in a box. And I realized how harmful that was, not allowing my child or period for human beings, not allowing human beings to be holistic, that you put them in a box of like, this is who you are.

And now anything you do, I'm going to fill in the blank because I've already made my decision that this is who you are. And that's why I think a lot of us miss signs of when someone is hurting, depressed, maybe having suicidal ideations is because we've already put them in a box that, oh, that's my strong friend. They can handle everything. Oh, that's the friend who always shows up for you. Always. You put them in their box and now you're not going to see anything but that. And that's what I did with Jason. So yeah.

He had was not dealing with the pandemic at all. He wasn't dealing with it. He felt isolated. He felt alone, even though like we talked every day and everything else. And he was living with his girlfriend. I still put him in a box where I was like, he can handle this. Like he's handling this. He's going great.

And it just got worse and worse. And the only reason I found out is because he was supposed to catch a flight to his mother's, back to Houston to be with his mom. And he missed the flight. The driver was in front of his apartment. And they couldn't find, he didn't come out. And I went over there upset.

Because like you thought he was just sleeping or. Yeah, I was like I was like, OK, now this is being irresponsible. I know it's a pandemic, but like there's a flight that's been paid for car service have been paid for. You said you want to go see your mom. Like so I went over there like angry and then walked in and saw the door jarred and like him face down and his cat's cat litter.

And just was, I mean, it was devastating. It was one of the hardest things I ever saw in my life. I bet that just turned your world upside down. Upside down. Especially because you thought-

He was the one that could handle it and was handling it. I know. Not anymore. Not anymore. Like, after that moment, I did a reevaluation of every person in my life who I put in a box. And that goes from sisters to coworkers who I was like, I mean, everyone. I realized there were so many people that unconsciously I had already defined who they were. Mm-hmm.

And I erased all those definitions and said, no more defining you. I'm just going to allow you to be yourself without any definition, which is going to allow me to truly see you. And again, hear you, really hear you and be there for you.

I think that that is such a great message that you sort of took stock and reassessed your friendships and your relationships. But even just people on the street, you know, we put people in boxes all day long every day. Yeah. And nobody knows what anybody's really dealing with. Exactly. Exactly. And so if you want to get to know what they're dealing with.

you know, first don't put them in that box. Secondly, let them know, like we talked about earlier, that you're a space to be there, to really hear them and be there for them and, and listen. And, and, and then do, like I said before, you have two ears, listen more than you're talking. And that has helped my relationships tremendously in my life because now I'm

I'm getting to see people and be there for people in ways that I wasn't before because they were this or that. I mean, I can imagine you being an expert when it comes to providing guidance in these areas for other people and then to have this happen in your own life. I can imagine all of the emotions that you must have been going through. Yeah. I think the thing was, the biggest emotion was...

that came through in the first thought is that when I got Jason, I promised his mom that I would keep him safe. That was my biggest promise. I said, I'll keep him safe. Don't worry. I'll keep, cause you know, like I said, again, like it was a big decision for her, for her to hand over her son. Yeah. Like, and inadvertently I was a stranger, even though like we were kids as friends, I mean, friends as kids, I was a stranger. It was 10 years later.

And it was a big decision. And so I was like, don't worry. That's why I stay close. And so that parent guilt of like, I didn't keep him safe. I didn't. I didn't keep him safe. I didn't give him the tools. I didn't give him something. I think that rattled me for a long time. I didn't do it.

I did. I can imagine.

And that was a conversation I realized, like the conversation was always like, it was so bad. I was in a dark space, but I didn't realize I didn't tell him that when I started drugs, I wasn't in a dark space. I was in a happy space. I was with friends. Like the first time I drank and did cocaine, I wasn't in a dark space. I wasn't like depressed on some corner. I was at a nightclub looking really cute and sad.

some friend was like, do you want a bum girl? And I was like, I've never done it, but sure. Like I was in a happy place. And, and I didn't explain that to him is that these vices can come into your life at some of your happiest moments because your guard is down and because you feel invincible. And then what happens is that once you've let it in,

the darkness inside of you that you might be keeping out of bay is now going to start growing because you're feeding it with these vices. And that's what happened to him. It's the beginning of the pandemic. He's having fun with his girlfriend and his friends. And he's like, we've got this, but wasn't processing the emotion that he was feeling. And now I've tried a drug because we're 20 and we're having fun. And

And now it's turned into another and now I'm depressed and now it's getting darker and darker and I'm doing more to try to find that first feeling that I had on that first day. One of the things that I've now learned is I'm having conversations to help people to understand the dangers of drugs. I talk more about like that first day is probably you're happy.

Yeah. That's the time that you have to be most aware is when you're happy. People don't think that. You think if someone starts an addiction or drug addiction or drinking addiction, that they're in a low place and they don't know where to turn. Every story is different, obviously, but the majority of people I have talked to or I've helped or I've

counseled, they are with friends. They are in a club at a party. They are feeling good. They are, it was exciting. It wasn't some dark alley moment. You know, it gets, can get there for people. It's always something fun and like new and like, oh my gosh, are we trying this? Are we going to do this? Are we having a shot? Are we having this drug? And that's when you have to be more aware. And so what I try to tell younger people now, especially as like

When you're the most happiest and those endorphins are running in you is when you have to then be really conscious of like, this is the moment I have to say no. Because there's something that might be darker laying underneath that happiness that you haven't focused on that those drugs are going to trigger. And so this is where you really have to be paying attention. And this is where friend groups have to say to each other when we're our happiest is when we really have to protect each other.

That protecting your happiness statement takes a bigger, like takes on a new way when you're like in our happiest, we really have to protect each other because that's where we're most vulnerable to getting the shitty man that comes in our life. We're most happy is when we're most susceptible to that drug coming in that liquor. Like every shitty relationship I've ever had, I was in a happy space.

When it started. Yeah, I was like, oh my gosh, he is so amazing. I love it. Like, he's so great. It's so exciting. We're meeting up. Everyone is that. And so like what I'm learning now is that protecting your happiness is more of a job than we actually tell people. Like in those moments of happiness is you have to really say, hold on. I know this is exciting right now, but what if? And this is not Debbie Downer, but what if?

How are we going to protect your happiness and how are you going to still spot the red flags, the things that are dangerous in the happiness? Because those endorphins are going to make you not see it. Right. And that's it. That's my that's my soapbox about happiness. Well, it's an interesting perspective and something I think people should think about. So it's good that you're bringing awareness to that.

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And for the little ones, stock up on Huggies Snug and Dry Diapers and Huggies Little Movers Diapers. Offer ends November 5th. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details. I just commend how you and your son have been so open about these struggles in your own personal struggles that I heard about in your memoir.

Has sobriety, you think, brought you and your son closer or formed a new and different kind of bond that you never would have had? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, sure. Like where we were. I mean, our communications always been open, but now like there's nothing left to hide. You know, there's nothing left to hide. There's nothing that because now we've made it through the darkest.

There's nothing he could do or say that he knows that I would ever leave him or abandon him. And so part of his fear of not telling me was that he thought how I would react. And now he knows that I will always react in love. And I think that has allowed us to get closer because now he's not afraid to tell me if something happens. Because I think most children don't share because they're afraid that they're not going to get a reaction of love. And now my child knows no matter what,

When I find out you're doing something that I don't approve of, I reacted with love. I love you through this. I'm going to love you. We're going to support you. It's all love. Never a scolding, never a bad moment. I mean, that's so hard as a parent though, in the moment when something happens and you see your kid making a bad decision. It's really, really hard to take a beat and just remember that you want to lead with love and understanding. Yeah.

So you don't sever that relationship. You know what comes to my mind? I sing this to myself all the time. You know that song? I'm a young soul. I came to this strange world hoping. You remember that song from back in the day? No, not at all. I'm not a good singer. I'm not a good singer. It's okay. I'm not either. But it's about like being a new soul coming into this world. Yeah.

Can you hear it in your head? I have to buy this now because I want you to hear this. This is the song. Does it sound familiar at all? Yes, I completely recognize it.

So in this song, she just talks about being a young soul. And now since I came here, I've just been making every mistake possible. And I just wish that everyone could remember that I'm just a young soul. And I keep, I sing that to myself all the time. I was like, well, you're a young soul. Strange world. Yeah, you got to remember that because they don't know.

They don't know. And so that's my little thing. Thanks for letting me find that stupid song. Of course. I wanted you to finish that moment for yourself. I know the song now. So thank you. I do love that song. Yeah.

You and your son co-wrote children's books together recently. Yes, we have two. One is called I'm Perfectly Designed, which just reminds people that you're perfectly designed no matter how you look, where you're from, you're perfectly designed and to embrace and love yourself. And then the second one is I'm Okay to Feel.

which is important to like tell young boys that it's okay to feel your feelings. And, you know, and so I'm proud of like to have written two books with my boy. It's like amazing. Yeah. I just embarked on a business with my middle daughter and,

And there's something so rewarding. Isn't it? Like you share that time together, but you also see them developing these skills and just like blossoming. It's wild. It does the same feeling. I'm like, this is just amazing. Like we also, he and I have just been in the process of, we just sold our first television show to a network together and, and,

Yeah, I'm so excited. I mean, like, there's, you know, this is a process. So, you know, when it will make it to air that whole thing, you know, so I haven't talked about it, but watching him write and become, he's turning into this brilliant writer, which is like, he was already a great writer growing up in high school and everything else. But to see it like turning into like books and now a show. And I'm just like,

Oh my gosh, you're like, you're like brilliant. I read his words and I'm like, I had, I was on a call the other day and he was sitting on the couch over there and he

And he heard me struggling to find the words to say. And he just said it out loud. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is our relationship now. Like my son is this brilliant wordsmith. And now he just knows how to give dad the word. And I was like, I'm just, I couldn't believe it. I mean, I'm getting like emotional because you didn't know you were a dad and

And now you're a dad and you're an amazing dad and you strive to be even better and you really recognize the glory in it and the struggles in it. And you share all of that so openly. That's what it's all about. We learn from you because of you. Amazing. You talk a lot about boundaries and I know...

that that's not easy for a lot of people, setting boundaries and keeping boundaries. What would you say, just really quickly, what are some good steps to creating boundaries in your life? What do you need to tell yourself in order to make those boundaries? Well, first of all, most people aren't clear on what they want in their life. So before you start setting boundaries that you're not going to actually keep or enforce, you need to write down what it is you want out of life and what you deserve.

What do you want and what do you deserve? And this is a practice I've been doing forever. And I try to tell people consistently, like, don't have it up here rattling around. Write it down where you can see it and reread it because it's important for you to understand. Like the reason this boundary is important is because I want this for my life and I deserve this for my life. And when you have those in front of you,

and you are aware of them, it's harder for somebody to break that boundary or overstep that boundary because you're not going to allow them. When I know that I deserve a paycheck at the end of two weeks because I've done this amount of work, your boss comes to you and says, oh, I can't pay for another week. You don't just say, okay. You say, no, no, no, no, no. I worked. I did this. I want my money.

And it's because you're clear that working hard, doing your skills, you deserve this money. And the same thing goes for like,

your emotional state, your mental state. When you know what you want and you deserve, no one can not give you your money or give you the respect or give you the love or give you what you deserve because you're aware of it. And so that's the first part. As I say, I think a lot of people don't take that time to really be clear. That's amazing. That's an amazing message for our listeners. And then the second thing I would say, once you're clear, I would say before you even start setting boundaries, I tell people, get your boundary buddies.

And this is important things because if you never set boundaries before, it's very easy for narcissists, manipulators in your life to learn how to go around your boundaries. And so when I say get your boundary buddies, it's those people who understand equally what you want and what you deserve, who when if you have a moment where you feel weak or you feel or you get sucked back into whatever pattern, these people are there to remind you of what you want and deserve because they've read that sheet too.

And I think when you have those two things compounded, it's easy for you to set boundaries with the people in your life. And it allows you to stick with it. And boundaries can save your life and change. Yeah, they can. So write down what you want and what you deserve. Yes.

I did a similar thing in my therapy, which was I wrote down my non-negotiables. Yep. So it's very similar. Yeah. And then get your boundary buddies. Define it. Yep. Get your boundary buddies. BBs. I love it. Get your BBs. I don't want to not talk about your talk show. I know we're running over a little bit, but-

Let's just briefly talk about this new season of Karamo premiering September 16th. Right. Yes. Yeah. Is this season two or three? Season three. Three. Yes. Wow. It's been exciting. I shoot. So the syndication games, I shoot six to eight episodes a day. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a grind. My show is different because I don't have celebrities on. So I help everyday people and,

And the thing about the genre that I'm in is that it's unfortunately over the past couple of years has got a bit of a bad rap.

Because people have been screaming, running off, acting crazy. And one of the things that I'm most proud of is that, like, I give out therapy on my show. Like, anybody who comes and opens themselves up, I pay for therapy. I, you know, make the network pay for therapy, which they've never done. You know, I always make sure that we bring it back down to real conversation, real emotions. We're getting through it.

Like there's real healing. And it's been a journey of like rebranding this job and helping people to see like, I'm not here for the solution. I'm here to tell you that you can be in a better relationship with your mother, your father, your sister, your brother, or your boyfriend, your husband, your wife. And it's been great because the audience is receiving it.

They want it. They're like, please. Yes. So it's been a great thing. So, yeah, we're going to season three. And I just know that, like, this is a long game. Like, you know, I think like I think about some of the people I look up to, like Oprah, her first seven seasons was not what we know about Oprah right now.

People look back at early season Oprah, they're like, oh, that's not the show that we ended up loving in the end. You know,

You know, like there was moments where Oprah used to wheel out wagons of fat and have, you know, baby mamas fighting on her show. And then, you know, gradually she allowed people to see her heart. And so I'm just excited for the continued growth and for people to continue seeing me infuse me and what my whole life is about, which is helping people into this show. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a perfect place for you. I'm very excited for you. You've shared your life. You've shared your ups, your downs, the lessons that you've learned and challenges that you've faced. And you use that to reach people. Trying. That's the goal. And help them through those big life moments. That's the goal. That is the goal, sister. Share, share, share. Yes. What a gift you are. You're a gift.

Okay, two last questions. When it all ends, what do you hope the world remembers about Karamo? That I hope that they just know that my only job on here is to help people feel seen. That's all I want. That's the only thing. If I die tomorrow, I feel pretty good that people know that I've been on this world to help people feel seen. Because I don't believe this life is for me. I believe that all these experiences I've been through is for me to help other people.

Because my life is an up and down roller coaster. I'm like, God gave me this to help other people. This has to be for a reason. There's no reason that the gay guy became a dad this way unless it was to help people. And ended up on the platforms that you're able to reach some of the people now. I'm like, this is for someone else. This is all meant to be. Yep. But before I let you go, Karamo, what was your last I choose me moment? Oh, I had a...

I had a really important relationship in my life and because that person could not be a partner to me in the way that I needed them to be a partner. And I chose me because I decided that what I want and hope for in this in relationships going forward, business personal is for someone to be able to show up equally. And so I said, if it's not equal, I'm not doing it. And so I chose me, which is beautiful.

It is so beautiful. You are beautiful. Thank you for being on our podcast. I love you. I love you too. I'll see you around. Yes, you will. Thank you so much for everything. Thank you. Wow. Okay. Karamo is so incredible. I just, I love him. I just walked away from that conversation feeling so empowered to revisit some boundaries in my life.

and to just live an organic, authentic, open life like him. Thank you Karamo for coming on. You are so amazing. I cannot wait for the new season of his talk show and the new season of Queer Eye. Such great work he's doing. As we continue to choose ourselves each week, I want you to think about boundaries. We talked a lot about that in this conversation.

And I want you to really ask yourself, are you having healthy boundaries with the people in your life? Are you having to set boundaries when it comes to your work life? After you think on that, if you feel unbalanced, I want to challenge you and empower you to start following some of those instructions that Karamo gave us today. What do you want? Be clear. What do you deserve?

Setting boundaries helps make sure that your needs are met and that you can show up the way you want to show up. Without them in place, it can be very hard to be the best version of ourselves. And I know it might not be easy, but this week, I want you to try and define and set one boundary with that intention.

Thanks for listening to I Choose Me. You can check out all our social links in our show notes. You can learn all about Karamo. You can rate us, review us, and be sure to use the hashtag I Choose Me. I will be right here next week. I hope you will choose to be here too.

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