"Four Seasons Ambassador" (w/ Natasha Rothwell)
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- Look Matt. - Oh, I see. Bowen, look over there. - Wow, is that culture? - Oh my goodness. - Las Culturistas. - Ding dong, Las Culturistas calling. - A day of days. - A day of days. A day that feels right in the heart, the soul, the mind, the body. - You know what I was thinking this morning? I was like, this is someone we've actually wanted on this podcast since we started it. And by the way, we should say,

Shout out to anyone who voted for us for podcast of the year, which we won for a second time. Yes. And it's nine years in. And I'm just thinking about like, I know our guest is here today. And it's someone we've looked up to since. But even before we started the podcast and all these years later, it feels like a wonderful little moment. So thank you all for that. And also just to have our guests in this like star ascending moment. It's just like it's feeling amazing.

I'm a little emosh. I'm a little emosh. This is someone who, and wonderful vulture piece on our guest. And it just made me realize what we've known along, which is, oh, this is someone who both is someone and plays people that you just root for. We just love you so much. I know. So much.

This is like a decade in the making. No, seriously. And so basically, we're about to bring our guest in, but just know, I mean, obviously, the White Lotus, Insecure, How to Die Alone. I mean, there's so much to talk about. But for me, I was literally, when we finally met our, I finally like really in person met our guest, which feels crazy. Like the other night after the Oscars and-

I was like, you know, you to me will always be that flight attendant in my UCB basement. If you know, you know. I'm Mod Knight. Not even UCB. This is a UCB pitizen. This is a story pirate.

We are three pitizens in the room. Three pitizens in the room. Is that title of that? Oh my God. I'll jump. Wait, we got to bring her. Let's go. Let's go. Everyone, welcome to your ears. Natasha Roswell. Thank you for coming on. Oh my God, you guys are making me

Sorry. It's an emotional moment. But that's like so special. You know what I mean? To just have those people that are from way back that you knew were special then pop off. And that happens all the time now, I feel. I feel that about you two. Are you kidding me? What a bosh. I think game recognize game. And even on our come up, watching the two of you work, it's just, you know. You know. But you know that I was...

going through the whole process of screen testing for SNL, then being offered to write. And I remember reaching out to you and being like, what do you think I should do? Because I just respected you to the fucking mountains. And at that point, you were already insecure. Like Kelly was already like the one. And I was just like,

Natasha had such a unique, everyone has a unique journey there and you had a very unique journey. And I was just like, I need to know. Cause at that point I'm going to say like, you could count on like one or two hands, the number of writers of color, let's say not to put it on those, those lines, but like, it was like a meaningful thing to reach out to you. Yeah. I remember when you did. And I remember saying that like, it was hard for me, but like the juice was worth the squeeze. Right. Because it's just like,

Going through that, you know, iron sharpens iron. You become better at what you do. And it wasn't perfect. Yeah. And I have notes. Yes, yes. We all do. But I think ultimately it was the stamp in my passport, you know, professionally that I needed to open some doors that I think I would have eventually opened, but maybe take a little longer to do. Yeah, totally. I mean, just being back in New York.

make you reflect on this obviously right yeah like it's like like from the pit days to the UCB days to the SNL like on every level on every level like you know like in a car where this says like you know uh things in this mirror are closer than they appear like for me that's like literally being so broke that I was like picking up metro cards off of the ground at the

the train stations on my way home to check them the next morning and so like having calling my mom in fucking south jersey to order me pizza in brooklyn from jersey because i didn't have anything in the bank and it's just you had jersey pizza that's not bad which is a better pizza than a lot of new york pizza as a long islander i can say this too when you're outside of the city they take their time on the pizza right that's actually real culture number 46 when they're outside of the

They take their time on the pizza. That's true. Yeah. But no, I'm full of gratitude. And even just writing here today, so much of my experience in New York was based on where I was, my socioeconomic level. And I feel like for every different stratosphere, there's a different version of the city. Yeah.

So the version of the city that I'm getting to know now, it's different than the one that I knew, but I miss the one that I used to know. You know what I mean? I miss that kind of like hustle and that grind. I was never more poor than I was when I was grinding in comedy, but I was so happy. You know what I mean? And it just taught you the ropes. Like the early mornings for like a story pirate show, like made like an early call time scene. I'm like, oh, whatever. Or doing tech for your mod show at like 3 a.m., you know?

And paying for it. Talk about notes. This again is the old UCB. But no, but I mean, like, it's really something like when I remember I had taken like a long time away from New York, probably because of the pandemic, obviously. And then I got back and my immediate instinct, it was raining a little bit. I was like, I'm still going to take a walk. Yes.

And I did have like a, I don't know why I'm frightened moment. I was just like looking around, sort of really getting tearful because we did like, this is, this is really where we grew up. Oh yeah. When people ask me, cause I'm an air force brat and I grew up all over. I was just like,

But I became an adult in New York. Like I found out my voice in New York. I like made mistakes in New York. Like New York truly raised me. And so even though I didn't live here super long, it was only eight years, but-

Even just driving here, I was just like looking at cars like I remember crying on that corner. I remember that bagel shop, that ATM lets you take it out. You can get a five out. Yeah. Oh, wow. Tell us about that. I found one. So it's like all of those things. And you're just like, oh, I'm so grateful to have had that. And it feels like a collective experience, you know, like no one quite knows what we went through. And yeah.

the improv industrial complex is like that, like the pipeline from improv to TV, like it's not what it used to be. You know, like they don't have it like we did. Like there was a time of being in New York or LA doing comedy in the way that we did, where it felt like so cool anytime. And it felt kind of

frequent, I'll say is the word, but like it felt like there was a regularity and like, oh, this person got raptured up into the show. Yes. Yes. And now I feel like I feel like I'm not like my ears into the ground, maybe. But like, I don't know. I don't know, like of that same sort of like machinery that's happening. Yeah. I mean, I don't either. But the scuttlebutt is that it's maybe not the same as it used to be. And I think that like the the beauty of what was it was, you know, like

if you liken, you know, UCB to like Catholicism and then the pit to like, you know, I felt like we were all worshiping the God of comedy. And it's just like, we, when you go through that kind of like radicalization, it's just like, you see someone else and you're just like zip, you know, I'm about to get veggie tails, veggie tails. That's hilarious.

I'm about to get a little niche, but like when you were, because I remember, because we were pit people because we weren't embraced by UCB at the very start. It actually took us a little bit. Same. Is that the same with you? You were like, because you were one of the queens of the pit. And I remember thinking of you being like, well, Natasha's here at the pit putting in the hard yards. And like, that means that like, we'll get to UCB. Natasha's on the poster. Like, these are our alarms. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I just remember I had come to New York with,

six years of main stage experience in D.C., like Washington Improv Theater, and tried to jump the line at UCB of just like, I've been doing this for like professionally six years and I've been teaching and they're like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, take a number. And I was like, okay. And then I went to the pit and Ali was just like, oh, like you can teach. And so I was able to start teaching and then I auditioned and got on a team. So bless the pit then for like, bless the pit. It's also where

they held the showcase for SNL when I auditioned. It was at the pit. Oh, that was a famous night. That was the famous. That was a big night. And so it was just, I think the pit allowed folks to be a little bit more

Yeah, it's less rigid than the Catholicism of UCB. I remember also feeling like, yeah, than the Catholics. I remember at the time, like, there was something really performative about that space. Like, because you're a performer. You're a real performer. And I remember thinking, I think we identified that as that too. Maybe because UCB felt like very... It felt...

Cerebral, maybe. Cerebral, you know what I mean? Like, you had to learn a language that, like, those guys were speaking. But at the pit, it felt like you could... Maybe it was just, like, the proscenium, the literal stage. It felt like it was welcoming a different kind of performer. And I kind of felt enthusiastic about that opportunity. No, I loved the pit stage. And it was...

So much fun also to meet the folks that were like devoutly pit. Yes. And would never go to UCB. I know it was. And I just felt like an interloper where I'm just like, nah, I got to go to UCB later, but I'm gonna do this show now. Which like, that's the best though. That's the best. And like, shout out to the magnet people. Oh, magnet. Magnet is sick.

still such a wonderful vibe. The Baptists. Yeah, they were Baptists. Listen, we have figured it out. Magnus, we're the Baptists. By the end of this episode, we'll figure out what the Groundlings is. Even though we're not LA people, but we're going to figure it out. And Second City and all that stuff. But like, I just remember seeing you at the pit doing the flight attendant and I was just like,

okay, like this is someone who, this, she's going to go the fucking distance. You know what I mean? Like, I think you are one of those people who we just like modeled ourselves after. Anytime there was a story pirate story that like, there would be linked to every story, every stock story. I feel like, were you in like Emergency Pawn Show? You were, you did. It was like,

Sorry, I'm unlocking it. A story pirate sketch called Emergency Poncho about a kid that gets a poncho put on him at a meds game because it starts raining and it became musical. And you were in the tutorial for it. And that was one of the ones we always did. All had to watch. Ugh.

I'm actually dead. I forgot about that. We really are like... Emergency poncho. Emergency poncho. It looks like a garbage bag. It looks like a garbage bag. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. See, that's like... I remember the story parts of it all really pushing me forward because I'm like, yes, the community is what's important. And that remains true. And I feel like something about you is...

You're always in an amazing ensemble and you always put together an amazing ensemble. You just won the Indie Spirit Award for Ensemble in a New Series and with our pal Conrad. And, you know, even that connection to Fire Island being this great ensemble. And I see you in obviously Insecure and now famously two seasons of The White Lotus. Yeah. And you're in that family together.

That's obviously not an accident. It's like you're not like booking purposefully these things, but it seems to follow you. Yeah, I'm always drawn to the collaborative arts. I think that's why I never like I have deference for stand up, but it's never been my bag because I don't want to.

Yes.

And I think that's just innate in me. That's how I move through the world. And so whether nature nurture, I'm always drawn to parts and characters that bring humanity to people who look like me, you know what I mean? Like, and I don't consider it like an obligation or sort of like a burden to me. I get excited by that opportunity. And that's like when I sat down with Mike for white Lotus season one, I had reservations because at that point he hadn't had the scripts written and I

But I loved him. I'm talking like love him. From Freaks and Geeks, Enlightened, all the way through, you know, Good Girl, everything.

But then he was so good. Right. But then he hit then my my team's just like, OK. And I was like, well, how many in the cast are people of color? And it was like, it's you. And then there's one other girl. But like, mostly it's like you. And so I'm in a servile position. And I was like, that didn't like make me want to, you know, say no. I was just like, is he going to collaborate with me to help sort of like discover this character?

And we found that empathy. We found that like heart in the heart of who she was. So, yeah, for me, characters and empathy are always sort of like the true North. And then he kind of has this empathetic

sort of instinct with you where it's like, he went page by page with Belinda and it's like, okay, like what's the deal here? Like, and you get to be like, oh, I want her to wave hello at this family that's at the resort. Like those moments, that moment really stuck out to me. And then reading this, this piece and seeing all these interviews that you're doing, talk about that specific thing. I'm like, this is, this is the importance of like,

of Belinda as a character, of you as an actor. And it's important of directors to know who they have and how to utilize them. Like we have the same hyphenates, Mike and I. We're both actors, we're both writers, we're both directors. And so as writers, we were able to sit down and geek out and he's so aware that he's not a black woman, right? And so he's just like, well, what are the ways that we can add that authenticity? And I tell him all the time, I was just like, I wish more directors could,

took a page from that book of being able to know

I have a deficit, but this character or this actor who's playing this character might be a resource to me, but I have to humble myself to do that. And Mike is one of the kindest, most humble, like gentle, sweet souls that I've ever met. And so for him to do that with me season one, and I was fucking nobody season one, you know, like, I mean, well, Kelly was, I mean, Kelly was a thing, but also it was just like,

Well, anyway, maybe. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. I should say, I should say I felt like, why was he listening to me? Yeah, it would be hard to walk into an ensemble cast like that and be like, yep, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For anyone. For anyone. And so like, I felt so like ahead of my skis, but he was so excited. Mm.

And then when, you know, I was asked back for season three, he was like, when are we going to Zoom? And I was like, I got you, boo. So we like did that. We chopped it up again. One of my favorite things about this season, the characterization of Belinda is it does feel like there's a little bit more you in there. Like some of my favorite moments are when you're in your place of like,

attitude is gratitude and then a lizard will jump out and it will be a full shutdown. Like, I feel like that humor and that sort of on-guardness, it's, yes, it's like, it serves as just great comedic relief in any of these given moments, especially interacting with the environment, which is so much of what the show is about. But also, for me, it speaks to the fact that, like,

You're dealing with less bullshit now. Like you are a version of Belinda now that is like, no, fuck that. I will self-preserve. So it means more to me than just those small interactions. And where we find Belinda right now in this season, and we've seen the six episodes so far, is a place of true love.

fear and existential terror because she's now being like, you know, Greg is in the midst. And they see each other in a real way. So I wonder, like, what do you think of that progression and where do you think she's at and going? I love this question. So for me, when we see her at the end of season one, right, it's like she is devastated. Her hopes were dashed. And then we see...

her starting something new, doing something that's, you know, out of her comfort zone. And I feel like when we do that, it speaks to hope and optimism. So it speaks to some kind of between the time we last saw her and when we meet her, she's grieved that loss and is trying again. Finally. Finally. And when you meet someone on sort of like the precipice of change and like, you know, in

entertaining optimism. It's an exciting role to play because she's doing something familiar. Yes, it's massage, but it's in a completely different country. She's learning a new technique. She's raising the bar for herself. And when we see her in six, she's like,

all of the hope that she has is now being threatened by greg and her son is there yeah so mama bear's kicking in so she can't just recede which is what she's used to doing when you know things get bad or scary now it's fight or flight and bitch is gonna fight you know like we want to see that activation yeah is she gonna be successful i hope fucking so but like me too it's like

to pit her against, you know, Greg in this way, I think Mike was so smart in the writing because it's, it's the recognition is so heavy and it hits so hard when audiences see that. And,

He's very sinister. And in John in real life, he's such a dear friend. He's also so sweet. You can tell. Like so sweet. But when he got in character, there's one take. Great actor. Oh, I jumped. I was like, you can't smile at me like that. Because he would just like smile and like raise his eyebrows. Yeah. Yeah.

And the variations of that character he's given us. Like, you really don't know if in that very first scene he appeared in in season one, if that was a long con from the beginning, if it was something he figured out. There's so many things that are under the surface, obviously with every character, but him being sort of the big boss of the show now at this point, the main antagonist of the show. Yeah.

every time you see him, it gets scary because it didn't start that way. Yeah. And you know what he's capable of. Right. So it's just like, it's all in that first interaction that you two have this season though. I feel where you approach him at dinner. I love that scene. It's both of you volleying in this way that is like,

incredibly tense. Like, you're not looking, like, you're not, like, on your phone while you're watching this show. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, it's one of those, and I bring that up because this is a bad habit of mine now where I'm just like, okay, whatever, I'm putting on a reality show. Our broken brains. Yeah. You know what I mean? But, like, this is the thing that I think we're talking about, which is you can fill in the gaps as a viewer on Belinda's journey between one and three, seasons one and three, where it's like her hopes were dashed

She has convalesced in the intervening time of like, I'm going to self-start again, like since being disappointed and feeling like I had this life preserver thrown at me. Yeah. I feel like the empathy that she, in the favor that she couraged season one is there. And we see that like she has found a way to do that for herself, you know, like support herself and cheer herself on. And yeah. And I also think like it's fun to see her

on a quasi vacation because like we all have these vacation identities that we try on when we go out. It's just like, you know what? I got my vacation braids on. Let me like go out and wear these shoes that I've taken the tag off. I never wore them before, but I wear them now. So it's just like playing with identity and like who she wants to be. And I think it's really beautiful to play with someone who's such, you know, putty ready to be molded. And, and,

Now she's about to be molded by circumstance. Right. Yeah. I wonder how many months cumulatively have you spent living in Four Seasons? Oh, boy. Is it like almost a year doing this show? It would be more because I did Sonic in Hawaii and that was Four Seasons as well. Oh, wow. So you're a membership. I basically, like at this point, if they don't make me an ambassador, I don't know what else.

I don't know what else I need to do. It might scare people though. Like, did you hear about that cruise that's like, we'll take you to all the White Lotus locations. You can have a White Lotus inspired vacation. It's some vacation package. That Hawaii to Thailand to Italy. Yeah, like there's something you can do. That's...

Oh, that's a choice. Well, first of all, it's Greg money. It's Greg money. But also like, it's like, you know, to have a White Lotus inspired vacation, it's like, you know what happens in the show, right? I know. A lot of stuff. Yeah. There's someone on set was just like, they must have the best PR team. They don't let, they bury it all. Pun intended. Pun intended. Oh my God.

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Bye.

Okay, so we have to ask you the question that we ask all of our guests. And I'm excited to ask you this, which was, what is the culture, Natasha Rothwell, that made you say culture was for you? I thought about this question a lot. Also because I'm a fan of the show. And so I was just like, and I will say also, I've been trying to get on the show for 10 years, but my schedule has been so dumb. No, I mean, like, we've been trying. We've been chasing each other. But this is the moment. This is right now. Yeah.

And I'm like low-key embarrassed about what I'm about to say, but it's so true. And it is the movie Grease. Let's go! Well, at least you picked the best movie of all time. And I will say, I feel like Grease 2 is not talked about enough. No, certainly not. Let's talk about it. I just feel like, one, you have a girl for all seasons. We have cool writers. I feel like we get to see Michelle Pfeiffer getting dirty. She's straddling a

a ladder. Yeah. But Grease, like the OG. Yeah. I just watched, I like, I wore out the VHS cassette. It would be on my letterboxd for, I think. Oh, if I ever get asked that question by that incredible organization. Yes. I will say one word, Grease. Grease. And then I'll figure out the other three. But like, what is it about it for you? Because for me, I think,

There's something about it's some amalgamation of like the costumes and the way the actors are committed to those insane characterizations and obviously the incredibly catchy music. Yeah. But is there anything specific for you? Well, the music for sure. But also like I grew up in the church, very chaste. And so I relate it with, you know, Sandra Dee. Yes. Good girl gone bad. Come on. I was like, give me that. I was like, yes.

So it was so much fun watching someone just like get pursued by the bad boy. And like, there was all of this kind of like, you know, it felt Austinian because they're like longing. You know, there's just this tension of just like, when are they going to kiss? And it just, the tension is like that. And it's just the tension plate. Like we don't even get to see that, like the magic of that until like,

the end. Yeah. And then Cha-Cha Diagorio. The best dancer at St. Bernadette. At St. Bernadette. Guys, I think it's one of those things that like by osmosis, I do know every line. And I think maybe most people do and don't even realize it. Yeah. It'll come on and then every once in a while it's just like, oh, I don't know where my keys are, but I know exactly the line. The VHS of Grace would be like at any sort of like

rented apartment that you would like, you would go to on a family trip or something. It would be like in like the person's like closet or something. For me, the thing about Grease, which is the thing that musicals on some level should be because they are musicals, because the emotion is so heightened that you can't do anything but sing, is that it's the highest fantasy. It is a fantasy in the best way. They drive off in the car. Yes, into the sky. Beauty school drop off. I was like, are you kidding me? He came from heaven.

That's actually not talked about enough. It's rule of culture number eight. Musical dropout? He came from heaven. He came from heaven. He literally came down to give her her guidance. Oh. I also think that, like, I was... When it came out, I was... Like, I wanted to perform. Yeah. And I...

saw that as such a like like it was catharsis right on screen where I was just like oh that I want to do something where I get to build it up to that point and my god like it's like the spirit inside you like want to emulate that that is like the strongest link that you can have as like a viewer yeah and it's so funny too because like the movie couldn't be more white but like for me it was more about like

the good versus evil, like bad and good. And like, I was able to sort of watch it through that lens. And I mean, just the jackets, like everything about it. I just remember watching it and like doing the little like, yeah,

Like the little shimmy. Everyone had, I remember when I was little, we would do like our little dance contest. Like that's one of the things me and my friends would do, like me and the girls. And it was always, you're the one that I want. It was always, you know, summer night. Oh, please. One of the best group numbers in any musical.

Yeah. So good. It's so good. And also then when you get a little older and you can really appreciate the depth of There Are Worse Things I Could Do. And Rizzo? I mean, come on. I believe this is my like hot take that might be a cold take because everyone might have it. Stockard Channing, that should have been an Oscar nomination. I agree. What she brought to There Are Worse Things I Could Do, that's a moment in movies. It is everything. And like you see her...

'Cause didn't she have an, or she had an abortion or she lost the babe or something? - She lost the baby. - Or it was like a false alarm or something? - Oh yeah, it was a false, something like that. - It was like, it was a false alarm. - She's having these conversations. - Yeah, yeah. - And that's like, that's a lot. And the whole movie is a lot. Like they're talking about like, you know, during "Grease Lightning." - That is, yeah. - Those are some lyrics.

That was my kind of like, chased brain missed that until I was much older. And then I was like, oh no. Right. I know what that's about. You know what that's about. Did you do musicals in high school? I did. I was Mama Rose. You were not. See, you need to take over for Audra. I know. When I...

And I met Audra when I was in college. She came to visit University of Maryland and we were doing You Can't Take It With You. Oh, God. And she was in the hallway and I have this like fun picture of me and her back then. But wow, I did. You guys did obviously musicals. We did musicals. He did. I didn't. Oh, yeah. He was like a high school. He was like a Zach Efron in high school musical, like was an athlete, but like secretly wanted to perform. Right.

It's your dad's sports sports. Sports, sports, sports. But that wasn't really what held me back. All he wanted me to do was be involved. It was more just like gay on Long Island. Right. All stuff up here. But I found it eventually. Yeah. I just want to own up to the fact that Natasha said I was Mama Rose and my brain clutched and I thought you meant Mama Morton from Chicago. Yeah.

But both tour de forces. Never done more than, but I did meet Queen Latifah at the variety party. That was really nice. She came up to me. She was amazing. She was amazing. She shines. There's something about her that like it's, I remember I met her years ago when I was doing the NYU newspaper and I went to go interview her for Secret Life of Bees. Oh, I love that.

And she came in with her platinum blonde hair and sat down and just, it was like, oh, now I know what it's like to be in the presence of a superstar. She is royalty. She radiates. She is a queen. Yeah. Obsessed. Mama Rose, that is, I need to see that. You do need to take over for Audra. I had, my, the guy who played my husband in that show was super,

So gay. So gay. Herbie. So Herbie. He was so gay. And the kiss that we have was on, like, I believe it was on the cheek. I was just like, what? Like, I believe it was on the cheek. I believe it was on my cheek. I just remember there was we had I mean, it was so bootleg. It was high school, right? Yeah. The have an egg roll, Mr. Goldstone. Yeah, sure. All of that. We had like a prop issue and it wasn't there. Yeah.

And I did improv right since high. I've been doing improv since high school. So like. Did you object work it? Yeah. People were just like, that was, it was a choice. And like, oh, I didn't know. And my director was like, thanks for saving the scene. I was like, you got it. And I was just like, embarrassing. No, that is a pro move. My most embarrassing moment was auditioning.

Or wait, My Fair Lady. We did My Fair Lady. This was my junior year or my sophomore year. And I decided to learn sign language to the song that I was going to sing to because I didn't have confidence in my pipes. And so I forgot the lyrics.

to the song or the sign halfway through singing it. No. But my hands were already extended and moving so it was just interpretive dance. Yes. I don't even remember what I was singing but I just remember I was just like moving my hands and I left sobbing. But wait a minute. But I was kind of like

But you were cast. But I'm saying, there's something special about that audition. You leave the room and I'm like, I don't know what that was. I want her in my show. I want her in my show. I want that movement. Because it's going to be fun to watch. Oh, boy. Half signing, sobbing. It was so, it was just, yeah, it was a clusterfuck of beauty. No, but like, this is the Natasha Rothwell thing of, I'm going to power through and it's going to be compelling enough and you're going to fucking gag and love it. You know what I mean? If there's anything about me, it's like,

It takes a lot for me to give up. Generally. And to the point of like,

And I think it's also my brain. I'm neuro spicy a lot. And so I love solving problems. So like a no or like something like I'm just like, oh, that's just I'll figure it out or I'll work through it. It's an obstacle currently. Yes. But it will not be the definitive answer. Correct. But to be neuro spicy and to be like collaborative is killer combo.

I feel. I think, yeah, it's a one-two punch, but I also have learned more of myself in my 40s. It's like I'm now a boundary to Batty because I know that I've recharged solo. And I knew that before, but I am a people pleaser, recovering people pleaser. So like I would exhaust myself, as I'm sure you know. It's just like I will give until there's nothing left. I think we all understand that. When did you clock that and adjust that? I want to say in my 30s.

I felt that, well, SNL kind of happened in my mid thirties. And it was around that time where it was just like, you know, you understand when you're on the show, you have to promise them everything. And making time for other people came at like a cost. And so it was one of those things of like,

I could hang out with you and make you feel good. And I would feel good for making you feel good. But then I would be like a shell of a human tomorrow. And so having to make those calls. And then I think it's still taken me. I mean, I'm still in the process of releasing the guilt I have for choosing me.

Oh, wow. Do you know what I mean? So like, even though I've learned how to do it, it's still like not letting go of that guilt and consider myself worthy of, you know, the choice. But the guilt probably, and this is not like me saying this in a dire way, like I've learned to just

Not accept it, but live with it because it's going to regenerate itself with every interaction, with every choice you make for yourself. It comes with that little tax. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. That guilt tax. There's a guilt tax on this guilt tax. And I think too, like the amount of guilt tax you pay decreases the longer you're in therapy. Oh,

So for me, the more I've worked on myself, I used to have to pay a heavy toll. And now I pay a lot less. And maybe I'll have an easy pass at one point and I won't have to worry about it. But then they'll throw congestion price. Yeah, it's impossible. It's impossible. That is it. I think for me, it was like it was honestly the pandemic. It was being forced to be alone that made me realize, like, maybe I've always needed this.

You know what I mean? Listen, I was three months in and I was just like, I'm good. Right? Do you remember feeling like that? I was like, oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then you deal with the anxiety of when things lifted. I remember feeling like, am I crazy and weird for feeling like this?

I don't want to necessarily go back to the life I had because I was exhausted all the time. All the time. Because I think that it also connects back to us having to grind so hard. Yeah. Like, I think that we all have different experiences of not being in exactly the mold of what was, you know,

out there being shown as like a successful comedian, whatever it is. And I remember feeling like, oh, I have no choice but to exhaust myself because they won't just give the opportunities. There will be someone that they see in a more one-to-one way. So all of a sudden your wheels have spun so fast in your 20s and into your 30s. And then something says like, hey, cosmically, we're stopping. And then it's like,

That was when I was like, oh, thank God I'm in therapy because I have to deal with the fact that I don't want to rejoin society. Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. But wait, so would you say that it's like an opposite track in terms of like what Mel goes through and how to die alone? It's like, this is someone who wants to sort of like break out of her solitude in a way. Yeah. Right? I think it's also...

I basically wrote the show as kind of like a love letter to that unhealed version of myself where it's just like, I don't even know if she knows herself enough to decide what it is, you know? Like, so it's breaking out of the comfort of the known and going into the unknown. And I think in doing that,

it's not guaranteed that you're going to love it. You know what I mean? Like you might hit, and that's why we always called her like our human Roomba. Like you hit wall after wall after wall, but you're still getting your shit clean. And so like for her being able to like make those mistakes and like,

take risks and figure out if she is a people person. You don't know if you don't allow people in your life. I do think that like aspirationally, I tacked her affinity for being around people onto the character because for me, and I love people, but I'm a small dose girl. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like I love, give me like,

Y'all two, conversation. I will talk for eight hours. And then we'll be good for a little bit. Yeah. And that's perfect. And that's perfect. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, 100%. A room full of people, like, don't need it. No, don't need it. See, how were you the other night then at Vanity Fair while we saw you? Like, because that, I get really anxious about those things. And then I find when I'm there, I'm okay. And I'm actually, like, there's even enjoying it sometimes. But it takes me a lot to drag ass there. Okay. Okay.

- How do I say this so I get invited back? - No, no, no, no, no, say it, say it, say it, say it. We love being there. - So I loved being there. My default is not that environment. - Of course. - And so I parked myself towards the entrance and I people watched. That's kind of my happy place. So I was just watching the looks come in, watching the people, watching conversations.

And I tend to default in any environment, not just high stakes Oscar weekend parties,

I want to find a corner. I want to watch. And then I want to find like a person or a couple of people that I'm going to have probably an oversharing conversation. You know, I'm like, whatever, like, let's get in. So what about your father? You know, like type of conversations. An anchor. Anchor. And so I went there. I took a propranolol because it made it blocking. So that way my nerves don't get the best of me. I brought the director of development of my production company and I

She was tasked by my publicist to make sure that I did turns around the room. Oh, that's amazing.

That's an amazing accountability. Can we make sure that Natasha does at least some turns? Just turns around the room. Yeah. So I would sit there and then she'd be like, you ready to go do a lap? And I'm like, okay. And then I do a lap. That's Austinian as fuck. It is, right? A turn around the room. A turn around the room. Turn about the room. I should have said that as the pop culture that changed my life. The miniseries. Oh, of course. Pride and Prejudice. Absolutely. But now Grease wins. But Grease is, I mean, first of all, connecting Grease as Austinian is important.

I feel like I did some work just then. You did. What you did was you taught the children. I taught the children. And it's been a while since we genuinely taught the children. We have not taught the children in a long time. No, we haven't taught the children. We're just chasing the new and now it's like, no, let's go back and teach them. Okay, so you did a couple, you did a walk about the room. Oh, yeah. And it was good? It was good. It was good. And it's, it's,

I don't this sounds so like fucking twee and like I'm like but it was so cool to see people that I've only ever seen on TV and film yeah and like I'm not someone who fangirls because I do feel that there's a distance between me and them yes even though I'm in the same room and this isn't some kind of like woe is me like you know um imposter syndrome bullshit it's really just like

You reside on that stratosphere and you're allowed to be there. And I just, my joy is just observing, you know? So that was my journey that night was just like watching. I did go up to one person. You'll never guess. One person out of all of the people there. I didn't approach anyone.

Anyone but this one person. Is this someone... I'm trying to think who we saw. Is this someone who has been around for a while? A long time. Okay. I'm going to say... I'm going to say...

Billy Crystal. Oh, was he? No. Because now I'm thinking, because honestly, what I'm realizing is that we did what you said, but it was with Jon Hamm at the bar. And so we were so happy to just park with him. And so now I'm realizing I didn't see a lot of people, so I can't even guess. So I'm just going to throw out a guess and say Lithgow. No, John Waters. Oh, John Waters was there?

So he was there. Oh my God. Didn't even know. So University of Maryland, Maryland girl. Yes. Tracy Turnblatt. She was a fatty baddie before I even knew I like could be one. And he was standing there in his suit with the mustache drawn on. Pink.

pink huge sneakers. - So handsome. - And then all these like gorgeous starlets were just walking past him. - No. - Not knowing that he was, and so he was by himself and I was just like, just do it Natasha, just do it. You can go up to him, just do it. - 100%. - So I go up to him and I was like, excuse me, Mr. Waters? And he's like, yes. And I was just like, my name is Natasha Rothwell. I'm a huge fan. I went to University of Maryland. He was like, Maryland,

Baltimore. I love it. And I was just like, and I, I just thank you for Tracy Turnblad, like that and everything. And he was just so warm. And then I just kind of like stood there and then ran away. That's such a good moment. I mean, he's such an icon. Yes. Such an icon. Walking, talking icon. So that was like a cool moment. And I felt like he felt like he was, even though he wasn't against a wall, but he was like by himself on his phone. I was like, Ooh, I see you. Yeah. Even you John Waters. Even you are just like,

Yeah, parked. Parked. You know what I mean? Yeah. And hairspray, by the way, like in obvious ways and also in spiritual ways that are like not as obvious, can be a piece to grease. Yes. You know what I mean? Absolutely. I think that like they both dealt with different eras, obviously. And I feel like the...

- Yeah, just the culture of Baltimore. He just was such, he's the grand poet of Baltimore. Could be Poe, but I think it's him. - It's him. Wait, okay, but this is the thing. The distance that we feel at these events between ourselves and the people that are walking by, it works in every direction because I was saying this on our last episode, we were just talking, chatting it up. I think it was right before I saw you, when we saw you.

The person who ran up to me and tapped me on the shoulder and was like, oh my God, thank God you're here. You'll never guess. Megan Thee Stallion. Shut your mouth. She was like, oh, she was like, hey, oh, hi. Oh my God, thank God you're here. Like, I don't know anybody here. And I was just like, Meg, what are you talking about? Hot girl Meg. Hot girl Meg. Titty out Meg. She looked amazing. I turned around and I looked at her and I just go, period. And she goes back.

I saw her come in and I was just like, oh my God. The nipple cover. But I feel like everyone, I mean, I feel like that level of like social anxiety feels so unique, right? And it's hard to accept that someone else like her is like,

oh my God, I might've said the wrong thing. Right. Just like my areola showing. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. right

It's nice, but it's hard to understand. That's what you have to remember is it's like not only are these all human beings, but they're also human beings who are in the arts. And at one point, like we're just like the weirdos that wanted to be accepted, et cetera. And this is a big night for pretty much everyone. Of course, you know, somewhere in the crowd in there, I'm sure we had our like major ego narcissists, but like not that we talked to, you know what I mean? It was kind of nice. Yeah.

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Is this a good time? It's me, Dylan Mulvaney, and my dear friend Joe Locke from Heartstopper and Agatha All Along is my very first guest on my brand new podcast, The Dylan Hour. It's musical mayhem, and it is going to be so much fun. I like a man. You like a man. What do I like, Joe? You like a man too. We often... There's quite a similar... There's some cross-pollination happening in here. Not like... No! Have we? No. No. Not yet. Never say never. Never say never.

I cannot wait for all you girls, gays, and theys to join me on this extremely special pink confection of a podcast. There is so much darkness in this world, and what I think we could all use more of is a little joy.

Listen to The Dillon Hour on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Love ya! Have you ever wondered if your pet is lying to you? Why is my cat not here? And I go in and she's eating my lunch. Or if hypnotism is real. You will use the suggestion in order to enhance your cognitive control. What's inside a black hole? Black holes could be a consequence of the way that we understand the universe. Well, we have answers for you in the new iHeart original podcast, Science Stuff.

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is it feels like Mike really gets together people who are freaks in a way. It's like, it feels like a theater troupe in a way. It's not like a collection of celebrities. Like, of course, there are those names that you kind of just know that pop out, like your Jennifer Coolidge or Aubrey Plaza that feels like there's moments of like, oh, you're Parker Posey. Like, we know who she is. But what I love is that it's giving people

It's like a community of people who are, you know, as actors and artists and giving them the platform to now be tearing it up on the most popular show in the world. It's so insane because truly season one was meant to be a limited series, one and done. And so for it to be what it is now, you would think it would change the recipe. But Mike...

has not changed it. No. It's like theater camp. Like you go there and every single person there loves the craft. Yeah. They use words like the craft. Right. You know what I mean? And like being able, I remember when I got to set, just flew in, crashed that night, walked down to set just to watch and I stayed and to watch the girls, they were shooting like their first breakfast scene, the three ladies. Yes.

And I was just like, oh, I'm just watching Masterclass. Like, I'm just like watching them cook. Like, it was so cool to be like, oh yeah, we're back.

And it felt like the same pure show that I was on originally. It's the DNA. Everything is still there, even though they got a bigger budget. You know what I mean? And more cast members. But like each person, I mean, like you said, everyone's a freak. Everyone's obsessed about what they do. And each of them brings something so special and unique. I mean, I'm working with Leslie Bibb now. And I was watching her like process. And I'm like, wow, I didn't. I was like, she really has like this amazing process. And she's.

so excellent. And then I obviously knew she was cast in White Lotus, but I'm watching White Lotus and I was thinking back to, you know, watching her do what she does. And I'm like, this has to be like such an exciting environment because you know, that's the way Carrie Coon does it. Like I'm loving Michelle Monaghan on the show. And also again, like the idea of,

The very specific examination of three old friends on a vacation. It's one of my favorite storylines. I told Mike, because I binged the whole show when I got all the scripts. And so, and I know it's one of the first things I was just like, you have embodied adult female friendship in a way where I'm just like,

It was uncanny. And something specific, so specific about one of them being a TV star. Oh, God. Right, right, right, right. That's paid for it. Yes. Which I feel like, and now that we're getting to the point where it's like, you kind of get the sense that she's, you know, going to maybe use that or something. Might bring it up. Might bring it up. Like, might do the big boss vacation friend thing. It's getting so thick.

thick in that way. And just like the way that she ticks and the way I can't decide. And this is a huge Testament. Like I'm talking to some people who are like, Oh, those women really hate each other. But then I'm like, no, I think they really love each other, but I'm just frustrated by the way.

Life has changed them. Yeah. And they're, I think they're all really trying to connect with each other. I don't think that it's a, of course they've got their envies and jealousies and like their own personal insecurities, but I don't think we're watching three women that hate each other. Well, I think that like, and I don't know if you guys find this, like when I go back home for the holidays or whatever, you revert back to the version of yourself when you're around people who knew you when. Thank you. And so I feel like what we're seeing is them in high school and middle school, uh,

are behaving with or trying to communicate with their actions instead of their words. Right. Yes. And so there's this passive aggressiveness. And I think it looks like

a lack of emotional intelligence when they all possess it, but they're opting not to, I think because they're, when these three are gathered, they turn back into the versions of their self that felt jilted, that felt like they did everything, that felt like their beauty was all that there is. And so watching them play those subtleties and then the tension is they're trying to like resist who they were and become who they are. And then they're also all trying to become something else. Like they're trying to grow together. So it's like subtlety

such an interesting intersection of all of those, like all of that tension, you know? Well, like when they go into town and they get like hosed down by these kids. I love that. It kind of is the reset for the, or no, it's like them being shoved back into adolescence in a way, like they're being picked on. And then the rest of that day plays out in a way where they're like trying to like compete for like male attention. And that feels like the most dangerous, treacherous,

teenage circumstance. Yeah. And it's so well crafted in that. I mean, from the first episode, her single sob like a child. That's my favorite. Cut to, I mean, she's, forget it. She's next level. She, and then like Leslie, like in that episode where it's revealed that she's got, let's just say political differences and the way she like looks at them longingly, like, but there is such a disappointment in herself. Like, like, are they right? And I think that that's something

something that's really jumping out towards the end here is they are returning to a childlike state like every single time it's insinuated that they're old the way that michelle like her line readings of panic about like what are you talking about we're not old we can still have fun to the point where they're gonna push they're gonna push each other into a situation that is

truly dire and uncomfortable because youth is all that matters to her or that she's been told that that's all that should matter to her. That's right. And there's just, it's really, he's done it again, if you can believe it. Yeah. How are you and John

I'm curious, how are you guys playing those interactions? Because there is like palpable fear from you. Yeah. And I'm feeling it watching from home. Like, oh my God, no, Natasha, like you're like- Terror. It's terrifying. Yeah. And it's also, I think, so we had him on set the whole time, but it was a secret. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He hung out with us, but it wasn't a ton in the beginning. And like, it was just like trying, like all that kind of stuff. And so I think-

being on set with him was always a treat because I was like oh I get some John time today you know like you know because he was off exploring or doing whatever and he is such a chameleon that like in those moments where he's just like looking at me and then kind of tilts his head and smiles it's just like my like so it just works on you on like on like a primal level yes like great like feet and also it's just like it preys upon all of sort of like my natural inclinations to like

be liked and wanted and like why does he hate me and like what does he want to do and like you know how can I fix this and like oh he's a bad guy and like well do you want it to hurt like there's she's filled with fear and curiosity at the same time and that tension is where she's living which is just like no way to be and John is just so and he yeah his character is so antithetical to who he is as a person and so when he just plays those

When he comes out and surprises me, I watched it and screamed along with myself. Wow. That's how much I was like, oh, I was like, there he goes. Yeah. Wow. So just like ask about Mike White as a director, because like he does everything. But I feel like I'm very curious as to the process of like the scene work, because that is what I think is so amazing about the show is the dialogue and the scene work and the small things. Yeah. Yeah.

Is he encouraging of any improv? Like, I would imagine with you, someone that's got such a strong background and someone that he trusts and has done this. Or is it kind of clinical on the page? Because I could see it being either. He plays. So there's a scene in next week's episode. I won't spoil anything. Seven, you mean? Oh, no, it's not seven. Is it seven?

If it's up through six, we can talk about it. Okay. Then I won't talk about it. But what I will say, there are moments where I improvise and there are moments where he wants to get it as written, but will give you direction to play with it. A fun run. A fun run. Yeah. But it's less a fun run. It's more just like he wants options. And I remember I told the cast this because he's unlike any director I've ever worked with. And again, just being such a people pleaser and the ever the good student.

if you give me a note, I'm going to do that note. And I will not vary from that. And

And so like he will come in and give like a completely opposite note. And so I take that as I totally fucked up that last note. And I remember talking to him about it, like season one. And he was like, no, I just want options. He's like, you nailed it. I want options. And so, and I also know him to be the kind of director, like he's not going to move on until he has it. And that's the benefit of like being directed by the guy who's also working alongside an amazing editor, John Valerio. And yeah,

He's on set. So the editor is there with you. So they know, oh, we got that. So I had to take my ego off the table. And that allowed me to work with him as a director in a way that felt like I was having fun. I could play around. And he also knows like my improv chops. And so and some of the scenes where Belinda is like, you know, having a little bit of a comedic moment. He's like, have fun.

That is where the comfort and the trust lies in terms of an actor and a director where it's like, you're not going to move on until you're happy. And that way I'm comforted in the knowledge that like you got it, like that you have what you need. It takes a minute to learn that though. You know what I mean? Because I think, and maybe this again speaks to the fact that it was a lot of self grinding and hard work in so many different areas that there is, tends to be, I think, especially when I was like,

first starting out booking jobs. I don't know how you guys feel, but it was really never enough in a way that I realized at one point was actually hurting me, not helping me. Like it wasn't helping me to walk away from every setup being like, I didn't do a good enough job because also people can see that. And what they're thinking as a director is, oh, they don't trust me. They don't know that I got this. When that relationship is one of the most important things. And yeah,

Yeah, when you learn that. Yeah. Also just like there's that inner critic, right? That I've had to wrestle my whole life of just like that not enoughness in literally every aspect of my life. And I feel like the place that I've gotten to, I have such confidence in my creative and professional life. And that is trickling down into my personal life. But it took me a long time to be able to

for example, create an award-winning, critically acclaimed TV show and have it canceled. And it'd be like, I did that shit. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know where... It broke down. I don't know where it broke down, but I can look back at what I've done with a sense of pride and not enoughness. And that was a moment where I was just like, oh, a bitch had some growth. And that's a true test. The speech at the Indie Spirits was...

stood up. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It was, I mean, how the dissonance of like accepting an award for a show that's canceled. It was just kind of like, right. It all came up. But I think that like that, that not enoughness, I think when I reacted to that news, I obviously had feelings, but when I was able to, yeah, the, the boomerang back, you know, just being able to come back to myself and know that like,

I did what I was supposed to do. And there's circumstances out of my control. And sometimes things aren't fair. Yeah. Yeah. But you take this and you and it extrapolates forward into like the rest of your career. I can't wait for who the fuck did I marry? Thanks, babe. I'm so excited. It's going to be fucking. I mean, yeah, it's that. What a saga. It was such a saga. And there's so much more you don't even know.

Are you talking to Teresa? Yeah. Okay. That's the homie. I love it. And it's so lovely. And Marty Noxon, who's incredible. Unreal. Yeah. Unreal. Let's talk about Unreal. Can we though? Yeah. When I moved to LA, my very first LA thing I did, I went to an FYC panel for Unreal. Who was there? Everyone.

Everybody. Yeah. Everybody. Sherry Appleby, that should have been an Emmy win. Like, that was amazing. Constance Zimmer, obviously the whole cast. Constance and everything. But she's with me. We're co-creating. Amazing. And so she's kind of like, and she's, yeah, her writing and everything is incredible. And,

And she'll tell you she lived a similar story. So like her, she's such a value add. Yeah, hopefully we'll be bringing that soon. I love it. Wait, I've always been curious. I've never gotten to ask you about this. And now I'm like a new...

weeb, as they say, like a new otaku. Like I went to Japan for the first time and I'm like, this is my place. But what was your time in Tokyo like? So different because you were working. It was like a different time in your life. In my, I was 26, 27 when I got there.

I was teaching English part time. I started performing at the Tokyo Comedy Store, which is like their version of Boom Chicago. Yeah. It's just like they had expats performing for a lot of like largely expat audience. It was wild. It was black in Japan. Barack wasn't in office yet. He got elected that year. And I just remember like riding my bike around town and people shouting like Obama.

And I would just like, I just like wave. I'm like, yes. Like I was just like owning it. Oh, wow. People would even pre his inauguration. Like people would take pictures with me, pull my hair and just like, but I didn't mind it. Okay. I didn't mind it.

Because it came from a place of curiosity and it wasn't steeped in the fucking like trauma response that is living in America as a black person. Do you know what I mean? So like, it was just like, like people were just like, oh my God. But like, how long did it take for you to like have that understanding of like, oh, this is, this is just a curiosity. Pretty quickly. Okay. Because it's such a homogenous country. Sure. And the only kind of like,

that I peeped, it was like, if you were African American, they were cool with you. But if you were from the continent, they were kind of like a little suspicious. And I didn't know that because one of the guys that I was working with at the school where I was teaching, he was African American, but he looked like he was from the continent. And,

And we were going to this like karaoke bar and they wouldn't let him in. And we were just kind of like, well, what's going on? He's like, I know this happens sometimes. Let's go to another one. So that was wild. But I loved it. Like I had the best time. I loved it. And I was obsessed with it. And then towards the end, it dawned on me. I was like, the reason the toilets are so clean and all that shit is because the reason why everyone knows where they have to go and fall in line is because it's homogenous. Yeah. And like,

Is that like a worthwhile thing to aspire to? Here's what I'll say about that. Aspire to homogeny, but I think when you are in an environment where you are othered, you see yourself more clearly. I felt like I was wearing polka dots to a stripes party. Everything that I was trying to run from, I saw more acutely.

And for me, being in an environment where I felt so seen and so watched, it was just like, okay, bitch, audit who you are and who you want to be and how you present yourself. And I think that like, while it's not ideal, I do think moments of homogeny can remind you of who you are and require you to show up for yourself. And I think that when I was there, you know, I was

you know, I was, had lived in DC, graduated from University of Maryland. I knew I wanted to go to New York, but I was terrified. I was like, I want to live some life. So I did this like little adventure and wherever you go, there you are. Yeah. And I feel like that's also like, that's what I was going to say.

That's what it is. Especially when you're on vacation. You're supposed to relax. I feel like that's one of the greatest things about it. It's the genius thing about the show. It picks apart the idea that it's like, okay, I'm relaxing and now I'm alone with my brain. And I'm alone with these people who are close to me that I've elected to spend time with and their brain. With no tech. I did that once for a week. I did a Buddhist meditation retreat for five days, four nights. How did it go? Withdrawals?

Oh, yeah. This was like no tech, no speaking. Damn. Oh, I've heard of these. It's not. I've heard of the no speaking thing. Yeah. Yeah, no. And do you hear the thoughts more loudly or what? Like what's going on? I felt like I was at like a rock concert.

because there was no way to and here's what I did so like again rule follower before we entered the silence you could ask questions and I was just like books I brought books and he's like nope because you're just like distracting yourself and I was just like so no books no like I'm trying to go through all things like I know no gadgets but I was like what are the tactile sort of like analog things I could do to like

And he was just like journaling. That's the one thing that was permitted. My hand was throwing up gang signs. I wrote so much. I was like cramping because I needed to have some place to put it. But I will say it was clarity. Clarity times 10. It was amazing. Eventually you got there. Eventually I got there. Like kicking and screaming, clarity. And then now I'm also just like glued to my phone again. One of the most anxiety inducing scenes of all of White Lotus so far is

And obviously it was because it was the first scene and I was like waiting to see what was happening. But when Zion was sitting in meditation, I was just like, it always just makes me anxious. I know. People always say like, you know what, you need to go. Yeah, go home and meditate. I'm like, see, you're driving me nuts. And I also think that there's something to that in the whole show. This idea of what happens when you sit with yourself. Are you even able to entertain that idea? Yeah. And yeah.

I just think those themes are becoming even more clear as we get to the end. Like, who are you really? Who are you really? And it's, yeah, it's just reconciling the, like, who you want to be and who you are. And I think that's the constant struggle. And I think the more you resist that,

the truth of who you are and don't adjust your aspirations to be in line with who you are. That's just where the tension lies. I think Mike does that so beautifully in the show because you have all of these people hitting who they are head on.

Yeah, I mean, it's just really interesting because in now thinking about this thing of like the absence of tech and all that stuff, it's like it's a place that's asking you to let go of all those things. And now we have, you know, the older Ratliff gentleman like panicking because he can't communicate and needing to do that to like get information and it's driving him crazy. Parker has lost her drugs. You know what I mean? She's going to be without her things. I think honestly, Patrick Schwarzenegger

No one wants to fuck him in that entire place. And he's got this like thing in his head that that's where his power lies and his like, you know, vitality and sexual prowess. And he's just getting all he can get that from is his goddamn brother. Yeah. And it's just been a really interesting, specific test of all those things. Yeah. I mean, and it's, I think too, like with each of them, you see...

the ugly coming to the surface. And I feel like with Zion played by the very symmetrical Nicholas DeVanessa. What a beautiful man. It was a very like Oedipal complex moment. Have you met your son? I was like, my God. My God.

He was in the pool in the last episode and I turned to Greta and I was like, when he gets out of this water, it's going to be on site. It's going to be something else. And lo and behold. And to make it worse, he's like such a good dude. Sure. Lovely actor. I remember saying to him, we had dinner like the first week he got there and I was just like, you are too symmetrical to be this nice. And he was just like, what? I was like, no, it's like a lot of guys who look like you aren't this nice. But no, I think like, you know, everyone's very ugly. Yeah.

Trust me, I've seen the block. You've seen them. You've done the tour. But yeah, I think like everyone's working on their shit. But I think like with Zion, you see it's bringing his good out. Yeah. I mean, like he's rising to the occasion. So I do think that like things that test us, you know, they yeah, they prove your mettle. I'm so scared about what's going to happen. I'm terrified. And the thing is, like, it's like.

It would be one thing if we knew this was a show where like...

They wouldn't kill Belinda. Right, right, right. But that's not what this is. I mean, we saw Jennifer Coolidge fall right off that boat and hit her head. I screamed. People think I knew. I had no idea. About that? No. So your insight into season two was nothing? Nothing. I was at home watching. I'm like, I love this for her. And then like watching and yeah, when she fell off, I screamed and then... Perfect ending for that character, but so tough. And famously, she hates the water. Being on it and gets famously seasick. They had a bedazzled bucket...

bucket for her season one to puke into. So I remember saying to Mike, I was like, the cruelty of this moment. And he was like...

Well, I had to write, you know, she had to do it. And one of the most iconic scenes is the ashes in the water during the fantasy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They put her on the water both seasons. Yeah. She's on vacation on the water for sure. It's so funny. And Mike and her are like best, best, best friends. And so it's so funny. I'm just like, oh, Mike, you're going to have to pay back. Pay back. This is mean. I hope Belinda kills Greg. This is what I'm hoping for. That's what I hope. I'm just comforted to like see you and be in the same space as you because I'm just like. You know I'm alive. Yeah.

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I'm Matt Rogers from Las Cotterizas. You know, for many, the American dream means starting your own business and working for yourself. If you're a small business owner launching a company or dreaming of starting one, then you'll not only want to make sure you're using a platform like Intuit QuickBooks, but you'll also want to check out season three of Mind the Business, Small Business Success Stories from iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio and Intuit QuickBooks.

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Is this a good time? It's me, Dylan Mulvaney, and my dear friend Joe Locke from Heartstopper and Agatha All Along is my very first guest on my brand new podcast, The Dylan Hour. It's musical mayhem, and it is going to be so much fun. I like a man. You like a man. What do I like, Joe? You like a man, too. We often... There's quite a similar... There's some cross-pollination happening in here. Not like... No! Have we? No. No. Not yet. Not yet. Never say never...

I cannot wait for all you girls, gays, and theys to join me on this extremely special pink confection of a podcast. There is so much darkness in this world, and what I think we could all use more of is a little joy. Listen to The Dylan Hour on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Love ya!

Imagine you're scrolling through TikTok, you come across a video of a teenage girl and then a photo of the person suspected of killing her. And I was like, what? Like it was him? I was like, oh my God. It was shocking. It was very shocking. I'm Jen Swan. I'm a journalist in Los Angeles, and I've spent the past few years investigating the story behind the viral posts and the extraordinary events that followed.

It's the story of how and why a group of teenagers turn to social media to help track down their friend's killer. This is their story. This is my friend Daisy.

Listen to My Friend Daisy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaking of being here, we probably should move into I Don't Think So, Honey, which is where we're all asked to be here and present in a 60-second takedown of culture that absolutely must occur. And I feel I need to speak to some response that happens to the White Lotus this season. I just want to check people and truly, I think, make a point about... Let's just...

Let me just put you on the clock. This is Matt Rogers. I don't think so, honey. His time starts now. I don't think so, honey. People saying that the White Lotus incest this season is too much. Where were you during Game of Thrones? You had nothing to say when it was heterosexual incest. And then all of a sudden, now that it's homosexual incest, now that we see some making out and some jacking off, all of a sudden people are up in arms. I'm sorry. There was incestual procreation on Game of Thrones and you said nothing.

I don't want to see that. I don't want to go there. This is White Lotus. You didn't think it was going to go there? I don't think so, honey. You better love and enjoy. Get your popcorn out when these two men kiss because I

I am rooting for it. I hope they go all the way. I hope we see these brothers make it to the altar together. I want the white lotus to white lotus all over the place. Bam! Of course when I do that, I'm pretending to be two gay brothers who are doing it all over each other. Grow up! I don't think so, honey. And that's one minute. Woohoo!

That might be my best one in a long time. I can't follow that. I didn't know I had that in me. Matt Rogers, caper for gay incest on TV. I love it. Grow up. Because all I'm saying is... You're right. There wasn't not this much noise during Game of Thrones. No. Certainly nothing even approaching it. Yeah. I think it's because...

You can't really project yourself onto one of the characters of Game of Thrones and be like, that could really happen to my children. Do you know, but like, you're watching this, you're like, I might be dating a guy who did, like, such-and-such brother. You know, like, or like, there's all of these things. Yeah, I'm telling you, it's these, well, let me not, but let me. It's these families with a lot of money that things go back a very long time. That is where the weird stuff happens. Weird stuff happens. And it is no mistake that they are that kind of, like, family.

And they're engaging in this type of thing. And what I'll also say is that the discomfort with it is, and this is very intentional, I think, on Mike White's part. And he's been like this from the beginning. There is a fascination with the male butt. And it makes people think of gay sex and the ick factor they're in. And I'm just saying that is the way we make love, get over it, and grow up. It's the theory of the abject. You don't like it because it's poop.

poop is nearby. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like, that's part of it. It's scatological. It really is. It's scatological and what I always think like, is he doing a butt call for his male actors because it's always popping off. A butt call. A butt call. Adam DeMarco, we will not forget. I'm just saying like, it's, I see what that is. Yeah. And therapy. It's very,

It's Shakespearean, right? Yes, it is. To me, I feel like that's the cool thing about the motifs he's using this season. It feels very... Classical. Classical. Yes, I would agree. And also, I really appreciated that in the second season, too, with the opera of it all. Oh, yeah. I thought that that was... There's really... And you kind of... It blows my mind that he can make these shows... Obviously, there are White Lotus, and they come with those themes. We, of course, have this very similar setup every season. Yeah.

But this, like, real commitment to and fascination with the culture surrounding the places he decides to explore, I think is...

even more impressive than people realize. Oh, this season is incredible. Yeah. I've seen a lot of people who have a deep knowledge of Thai music history, of like the rock and the disco and all these different genres that have like moved through Thailand. Like people being like, no, the way that they're using, the music supervising on the show is excellent. The way they're using Thai music is very, very, very like sophisticated. Yeah. I feel like,

Thailand, for me, feels like a character on the show this season. Yeah, of course. And I think it's a beautiful love letter to the culture of Thailand. Yeah. And...

I learned when I was there, I had no idea. They've never been colonized. Oh, really? They've never been to war. Right. And they call it the land of smiles. And so it's just the foundation of Thailand is this openness. Yes. And it's pervasive. And it like the the Thai crew was like every Thai hand that touched this production was just like,

did it out of love. And I've never been surrounded by that, you know, in the same way. And yeah, I think that like from music supervision to all of the things. The performances, obviously. I mean, of course. And just like they tapped like Thai royalty to be a part of the show. I mean, Lalisa, of course.

This is a segue into mine. So fabulous. I just feel like, I mean, it's impressive. Yeah. This is a segue. With that segue, I'm going to whip out the phone and say Bowen Yang clearly has an I don't think so honey today. Yours is about too much being said about something. Mine is about not enough. And with that too much, not enough narrative, this is Bowen Yang's I don't think so honey. His time starts now. I don't think so honey. There should be a huge,

huge din of conversation around Lalisa's performance in White Lotus season three. I'm not seeing enough chatter discourse about the groundedness with which she is performing this character. All the seats between her and Gaituk are so sweet. I'm nervous for that. Something bad is going to happen there, and I don't like it. I don't like this feeling in me that I've been sitting with for weeks, but she is blowing me away. Obviously, Blackpink stan Lalisa stan for life.

She was someone that... My starstruck moment at the Oscars was honestly...

walking past her as I was coming off presenting and she was about to walk on for performing and we waved at each other and I was like, oh my God, Lalisa, that smile, that million dollar smile. I love Lalisa so much. Why aren't we, why aren't the gays talking about this more? Why aren't there more? You know, I just want to see the memes. I'm not seeing enough Lalisa memes. I'm seeing a lot of Parker. We love Parker. I'm seeing a lot of Patrick. We love Patrick. I need to see more. I need to see Belinda memes. I need to see Lalisa memes and that's one minute. And that's one minute. You know what it is. I love that.

It kind of goes hand in hand with the thing of like, oh, this season feels slow, feels slow, feels slow. No, no. I feel like this season is the most cinematic yet because what is going to happen? And I know with Lisa, I know there's a twist coming. Yes. I know that there's going to be something that goes down with her character that like makes it bigger than it is. And I feel like because it has to be because it's her.

It's just so exceptional. I know. I love her so much. Yes. I met her mother on set. She's so down to earth. She's just real and so sweet and like just loves the craft of acting and like is so was so nervous. But really, and she is like she would she would be out and about like if we were like, oh, let's go grab dinner here or whatever.

mobbed by people. Of course. Like in Thailand. International superstar. Yes. Yeah. Like it was insane. Like Beyonce level fandom over there. And she is so...

gracious and like kind and but the acting is out of this world out of this world well talk about someone who is used to working her fucking ass off I mean like you know have you seen the documentary oh yeah like it's it's my sister made me watch it before it's even

Before I went to shoot, I was like, I need to do some more research. I can't just listen to the music. It's like, you need to watch the docs. Yeah. We saw them at Coachella. It was like four machines. Wow. It was wild. And I mean, like a person like that, I would say, like I say about Beyonce, don't put anything past someone that works that hard. What is my Lisa side? I don't know. Oh, we need to find out. Probably a Virgo as well. I mean, I would feel like she moves like a Virgo. You know what I mean? We need to find out. What are you? Can you guess?

Wait, because I would have said Leo, but now as a result of this conversation, I don't know. Are you Scorpio? I'm Libra. You're a Libra. Okay, so we had Cate Blanchett yesterday and she was saying people who are Libras aren't necessarily as out and proud about their Libraness. Are you out and proud about your Libraness? I love my Libraness. Libra is not something to not be proud.

No, no, I love it. But we were just saying like people, Libras don't feel like they need to tell everyone they're a Libra. Like we're a Pisces and a Scorpio and we're so loud and proud out here. My dad's Pisces, Scorpio, bestie. 100%. Yeah. Water signs. Okay. She's an Aries.

I like that. There's a fire. There's a fire. I love that. I like that. In fact, I was looking at it. One of those like, you know, swipe through Instagram things today that's like, here's what a cancer needs. And it made a point about Pisces and Aries. So I might have to text Lalisa. I feel like you should. I'll get her information. She'll love that. Oh, boy.

She'll love it. Okay, is it time for your I don't think so or what? Oh God, I'm so nervous. Don't be. Do not be. You're made for this moment. Okay. Okay, this is Natasha Rothwell's I don't think so, honey. And her time starts now. I don't think so, honey. Stop asking me about White Lotus spoilers. First of all, the emotional labor black women have had to carry this country. I do not want a nary another person asking me to drop the bag.

that I have secured in an effort to make you sleep at night. It's not my job to make you sleep at night. You need to put yourself to bed. Stop asking black women to heal you. Watch the fucking TV show. Get your answers by watching the show like everybody else. Let me enjoy

thing that's exciting and I don't have to walk around being worried that I'm going to spoil something because you keep trying to sneak in questions. And do you really think you in the middle of Target that you, sir, that I just met and don't know you're the one that's going to make me give up the ghost? No! Kind of go fuck yourself and stop going in the 15

or overlying, you know you got 20 items. You're a liar. I'm not. And I'm not telling you fuck shit about the show. Watch. I don't think so. I didn't.

- Yay, in this one minute, amazing. High energy items and simies today. - Yeah, these are some high octane. - It's not gonna be you, Man in Target. - No, it's not gonna be me. - It's not gonna be you and it's not gonna be the Man in Target. - No, Man in Target, the bellboy, the guy in the cat. Like people have been harassing me. But it's like, you wanna tell them, you don't want to find out this way. - No! - Trust me. - You don't wanna find out this way. - Experience it through the viewing process, like the way it's meant to be. - I think also,

White Lotus is hearkening back to the way, you know, it's water cooler television. It's once a week and it's just like appointment television and folks are so gimme, gimme, gimme. They can't wait. You know what I mean? And so for me, I'm just like, give into what this show is. You know, it's hearkening back to like fucking Dallas. They had hour long episodes, you know, like being able to tell a story over time. I feel like the anxiety of the culture is just like making people. Yeah.

Yes, you need more, more, more. And it gets people mean about it too. Like I find that that's obviously trickled down to online blah, blah, blah, boring conversation about how Twitter sucks. But what I'm saying is we should be so lucky to be in a time when we have an HBO prestige show that is water cooler on every Sunday night. We are always living in a better world when that is the case. And it feels like we had a golden age there. And now we kind of like, you know, we're just...

to put it mildly, we are eating right now. Yes. And so enjoy your food. Enjoy. Slowly bite. Chew. Swallow. Take time to digest because more courses are coming. And I'm not going to be the one. Like, I like work too hard. No. I was like, if,

anybody's got loose lips. It's Parker. That's just true. I think she's already slipped. She's already slipped. No, wait, did she? She said something. I think it was unfound or something. Someone came out and said, oops, I accidentally said something wrong. Maybe this is about something else. It's not on the text chain yet. So maybe I don't know. Maybe we'll cut this out. But I mean, you've been sitting on this information for like a year at this point anyway, right? No, longer. Higher, Bob. So I got...

- I was cast before the strike. - Oh. - And I was sitting on it secretly while I was shooting "How to Die Alone." Then they announced it thinking we were gonna shoot that October. So I was the only one announced and then no one else was announced and for a whole year. - You knew. - Well, yes, well, no, that was, when was the strike, May? - May? - May through, I didn't shoot again until I got to Thailand in February.

So I've been sitting on it for that plus, so two years? Almost two years. Yeah. You're not going to give up the ghost. No, not that easily. Two years in, no. No, it's going to take a lot more than that target. Ha, ha, ha.

- No. - So we're not going to Target right now. Change the policies. - Change your policies. - Oh, Target. - I will admit, I did go in yesterday to buy the exclusive Gaga vinyl. - Oh. - But I think people on threads at least have given each other a pass. - Yes. - The little monster's been like, "You can go to Target just to buy the vinyl." - Yeah.

been proud of myself. My Amazon and Target shopping, way down. How's the Chick-fil-A consumption? Chick-fil-A consumption is virtually gone as well. Okay, virtually gone!

- It's gone! - Virtually gone! - Virtually gone as he picks chicken out of his teeth. - Yeah, you smell like the flu. - I brought myself. - That's not easy for me. - My addiction to both Target and Amazon, like obviously on the blackout day, I didn't. - Yes, yes. - This is real chic. - It felt chic. - It felt chic, but here's some shady shit. I had filled up my cart.

24 hour later. Period. That's okay. You followed the blackout. I followed the blackout. I was like, today I'm not going to press buy, but tomorrow morning I'm going to press buy. You better believe at the stroke of 12, I was like, all right. You were like, I'm going to go.

No, but you should have seen me driving around LA with two miles of gas in my car. I was like, I can't. I was like getting where I need to go like on empty because you couldn't get gas that day. I was like, now this is the true test. This is the true test. And you get somewhere on two miles. Like, how much do you want to black out? I wanted it bad. Oh,

I'm proud of us. I'm proud of us. We are changing the world. Yeah. One economic blackout at a time. That's right. You certainly are. God, what a long time coming. What a long time coming. We just so enjoyed having you here. I want to do this again. Come back anytime you want. No, you have to come back. But also, let's hang out without mics and everything. 100%. So we can really say, the spoilers. And not at a Vandiver party. No, not at a Vandiver party. We will be the guys. Yes.

Okay, so, I mean, obviously, White Lotus, Sunday Nights, where I guess six episodes are out right now. We're coming up on that finale. Obviously, watch everything Natasha does because it's the best ever. I mean, we just adore you. Thank you so much for making time for us. I love you guys so much. Truly. Thrilled for you. So happy. No one is more, like, up in this... I mean, unfortunately, you're, like, up on this pedestal. But the thing is, you've been up on that pedestal for...

so long for us and you have never, ever, ever, ever disappointed us. And that's not pressure or anything. It's just, it's just our love. It's pressure. No, it's just that we love you so much. Ditto. And just know that like, I am rooting for y'all so heavy. Like everything you touch now or will touch,

I'm like, just know that I'm in your corner. And for me, watching what each of you guys do and how you have come together to like, like it's just beautiful to see, especially in the comedy community, that kind of support. And I think that like,

What you do, I mean, it's smart. It's timely. It's needed. And I'm just like, I just want to keep putting a mic to you so that way your voices can continue to be amplified because the world needs you. Oh, my God. That is the kindest thing anyone's ever said. Thank you so much. It's true.

I mean, this is so meaningful. And I feel we do end every episode with a song. And people have been talking about how they haven't been hearing this enough. But when this theme jumped out in the show, I was like, okay, I think this is Mike White telling us White Lotus is about to White Lotus. We all know the refrain. Come on, the remix. I had to throw some grease in there. Bye.

And our music is by Henry Komerski.

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