“Turn Up The Volume” (w/ Tourmaline)
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- Look, Matt. - Where? Oh, I see. Wow. Bowen, look over there. - Wow, is that culture? - Oh my goodness. - Wow. - Las Culturistas. - Ding dong, Las Culturistas calling. Now, I have to really check in with you because you are, as of two days ago, officially a New Yorker again. - Yeah, it's now happened, happened. - Yeah. - But I will say,

the thing about moving is then you have to like do that process and I can't believe what I'm finding in my closet. Yeah. So one of my best friends, Melissa, came over and we went through all of my clothes and really, really, really said, does it spark joy? I guess we did like a Marie Kondo moment. So much of my shit did not spark

joy. It's okay. And I'm like, all this stuff that I was around didn't spark joy. And it literally was, you'll find it weighs you down. Like, have you done like a deep like donation? I do like a quarterly purge and it's still not enough. No, it's,

still not enough. Yeah. And it's, I don't consider myself someone who like shops egregiously. I guess like we've all been made to be like, I guess I need that just because it's like you hit a call to action and then you hit add to cart and it's in. You know what it is for me? It's like stuff you accumulate at things where they like give you a shirt. It's like, oh no, I need that Yankees pride shirt. No, you don't. Oh no, I need

that shirt that says like that niche phrase that I'm into this week. I found a shirt the other day. What'd it say? That I got from, it was from the game show writer's room and it said, you want to fuck me, Barbara, which is a line from Notes on a Scandal, which literally there would have been one time to wear it and it's when we had Cate Blanchett on this podcast and I

You didn't do it. So I gotta say, thank you to the writers room of Game Show for that gift, but it's gone. It had to go in the Marie Kondo move. Hey, that's okay. Now, would you, I'm going to posit something. Okay.

Would you be okay with me, let's say, looking at a shirt that says, you're Lisa Barlow, I care a lot for me too shirt. Not that I've done this. Would you be okay with me disposing of that? I just got rid of it. That's okay. And I thought to myself, because when you're on like the... I remember watching, I think probably was watching Salt Lake City Housewives. She said...

What was it she said? I care about me too. No, I feel for me too. I feel for me too. I'm sorry. I butchered the quote. And at the moment, I was like, wow, that's amazing. You go on, you know, whatever it is, like Etsy or whatever, and there it is as a shirt. And you say, well, I got to buy that. You go on Redbubble. It's there. If you buy every piece of merch that has a cute housewife saying, you're going to be

living in shit. And that is rule of culture number 40. If you buy every piece of merch that has a cute housewife saying, you're going to be living in shit. And I've been living in shit and I tell you, I can breathe again. I know. Isn't that nice? Yes. And quarterly, I'm going to pick that up from you. Quarterly is nice. And it's just nice to be back in New York when you have sort of dusted off the internal cobwebs for yourself. I hope it feels fresh for you. We're getting some rain today. You know what? I was moving in the rain yesterday and they had closed down my street because of a bicycle race.

And I said, you know what, Matt? You want a New York back. You're getting it back.

That's what it's all about. And I'm happy. I'm thrilled. I love my new place. It's still slowly coming together as it's the process. But like returning to New York, we were just talking to our guest about this because our guest is an iconic New Yorker. She has a prodigal return, as it were. In fact, yes, the new book is actually it's not only very much the definitive, I would say, biography on Marsha P. Johnson, but also this book about this is a queer history of New York. Yeah.

And that is something that I really loved about it. And we were just saying before we got on, like specifically this area, you know, your Christopher Street, your West Village, your Stonewall area. Like we have so much personal history there and I'm so proud to have that history. And reading this book made me so proud.

She has such a deep history with this part of town, truly. The definitive intel. Which I want to talk about this because there's like a Nashville vacation over the West Village that's happening right now. And I would love to talk about this. Oh, we should talk about it. We should. Our guest is a filmmaker and artist, one of the great queer archivists that we have.

I reached out to her for the first time because I was reading Faggots and the Friends Between Revolutions and you wrote such a beautiful introduction to that. And I was like, I have to reach out to her. Like, this is one of the most beautiful pieces of queer writing that I've ever read. And I think I DM'd you. Yeah. And then I was like, hi, I'm just like a fan. Like, you wrote such a beautiful thing. And then when it was announced that you were writing like

Kind of the first ever Marsha P. Johnson biography. I got so excited and then I'm so glad this worked out so that you're on. Yes, the book is Marsha, The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson. May 20th. She's just one of the most important icons we've had in our history. And to know that such an exhaustive, brilliant piece of writing now exists. It's just beautiful and we are so proud to welcome you to the podcast. Please welcome to your ears, Torvald!

Hi. Thank you both for having me so much. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited to dig into it. I mean, it's not just Marsha. It's that area. You bring it to life beautifully. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I have spent so much time on Christopher Street. I started going there as a teenager when I was at Columbia, taking that slow one train day.

and that's where I found my people. That's where I found like queer, transgender, non-conforming young people just taking up space

we were turning up the volume of our life like we were being all of who we were and also we were getting you know noise and resistance the people who lived there weren't into us the police weren't into us and yet similar to Marsha that was just a jumping off point for turning up the volume more yeah that's a beautiful way to put it though it's really beautiful I mean like

If you're lucky in life, like, it's just a big opportunity to just, like, gradually turn up the dial or have someone, like, knock it down and then you just keep turning it the other way. I need to know about the commute from Columbia down the road. Yeah, the one train commute. The one train commute pre-iPhone. It was just long. You know, it was just...

But, you know, I was saying before, like I live in Miami right now and I drive up to Disney World all the time because that's like my place of peace. Yes. But commuting for me is a place where I find clarity. It's like I fall into the daydream. I fall into the imagination as an artist. You know, some of us

I have studios, but for me, like New York City was my studio. Yeah. And the subway train was my place of like rest and respite. Yeah. I still get my best reading done on the train. Yes. I think I read most of the book on the train. Oh my God. Yeah. And it felt right. I did feel like it was connected and rooted in this whole like, oh, like I'm a citizen, a denizen of the city. Absolutely. And like I am part of this community.

grand fabric of people and like you would pass literally the Sheridan Square stop I would like be on the one and like pass Sheridan Square I was like it all happened upstairs literally and Marsha I have a dear friend Augusto Machado who is part of the Angels of Light Hot Peaches early drag culture right and Augusto talks about how Marsha would be above the Christopher Street stop and be a symbol for anyone who this is like the early 60s right and

a symbol for anyone who is coming from a place where they had to turn down the volume, right? When they saw Marsha, they knew all of them was welcome in that space. And then so that goes to what you're saying. It's like it happened right above us. Yeah.

And as you ascend, it's like what you see. You see the vision. I mean, you write like so vividly about, you know, the time. Like in reading about the Stonewall riots, it's just you forget when you're there now. Or like maybe it's more top of mind now as things get, you know, more tense. And over the past few years, things get more difficult. But it's so...

You read about the violence in that area, but I associate it with so much joy and it is all of those things. And you write so beautifully about like Marsha's lack of correct recollection also speaking to the fact that she is in that way like a living document. Exactly. And it is all those things. Yeah. So it's really kind of…

It's important, I think, to realize like as you walk around with that joy, it does hold that history. Yeah, absolutely. And like trauma shapes our memory, right? Like there's so many beautiful writings and teachings about how violence and trauma affect not just, you know, like how we feel about ourselves, but how we recall ourselves in our community. And so Marsha talked about that really beautifully. She talked about being lost in the music, right? There's this beautiful clip where she's

being interviewed in the basement of a West Village house. And she's talking about being lost in the music ever since the 1969 Stonewall riots. And she couldn't remember what date. First she's talking about the 70s and then like 1963. And then she's like lost in the music, the Stonewall. And then she recalled Marvin Gaye heard it through the grapevine.

Right. And that was the music playing on the jukebox when the police raided Stonewall. And so it's this beautiful, malleable, like kind of Piscean. She was a Virgo, but this Piscean way, you know. Are you? What's your? Pisces. Pisces. Scorpio. Cancer. Oh, my God.

The way that that always happens. Oh my God. Ariana Grande was a dancer. Yes, literally. Oh my God. That's so funny. We find that. The water trine. That happens a lot. Okay. Okay. Well, that took it to the next level. Her sort of reconceiving that moment is Paisley in the sense that it's just like, but you know what? Because it's trauma shapes memory, but like that memory for her, like she, you write about how she kind of like

Conflates that with her birthday. Exactly. And it's still joyful in this way. And it's a birthing too. Yeah. Like Stonewall birth, a new era for her and so many, right? It was a moment where three articles of law, three articles of clothing laws, right? The police were using these laws to repress and make small transgender nonconforming people, right? I have a dear friend, Miss Major, who was also at Stonewall.

trans elder. And she talks about, you know, you would get arrested just for going outside, right? Marsha would be regularly picked up by the police, whether it was in Times Square or on Christopher Street, just by going outside. And what is so beautiful about that moment too, is like, she was reaching for a bigger sense of knowing that she mattered. And she did it from the

a place of turning over the table, right? When we're feeling really afraid, it can be so powerful to reach for anger, righteous anger, righteous revenge. And that was what Stonewall for her really was about. Yeah. There's this thing that happens where injustice is happening right in front of you. Something bad is happening right in front of you. And there is just this like,

stasis and like being a bystander to those things. Someone needs to break that in order for anything to happen. Exactly. And it like calls upon you to be like a brave person. Yes. And the fact that like there were obviously brave people before Marsha and before Sylvia and before anyone who was there that night. Of course. But it does just take this like

transcendence beyond yourself that Marsha was very tapped into spiritually to make you go, well, let's fucking... Like, let's start the revolution. Because it's, like, also unbearable to live in a place of fear. Yeah. Right? Like, it is... I've experienced this. I remember, like, in...

I've lived in New York for a long time and I had many different kinds of expressions in New York, like sometimes the volume of my life. I came out of organizing, right? So welfare, healthcare, housing, police and prison issues. Those were the things that I was doing for a real long time before I became an artist. And-

It was so important for me to be with my community in that. And we were doing campaigns and kind of raising visibility. But the volume of my life and my expression was really turned down. Yeah. And it was this kind of dichotomy between that. And so I remember these moments where I was like, this is I how can I show up for other people if I'm not going to actually be the most authentic version of myself? It's it's so it.

It costs more for my soul to be fearful than it does to actually like tap into my power and be exuberant. Totally. Yeah. Speaking of power, you, you, there's a line in this book, which really, I like had to read it many times because it meant so much to me. And I thought you put it so well. And I'm going to, if I butcher it, you'll, you can correct me, but it's, um,

power can be wrestled out of someone who's wielding power thoughtlessly or carelessly. And it's something, I think it was speaking to the fact that like,

There was obviously, I mean, Stonewall was a riot. There was a breakout, but it's almost like the police at the time didn't know what to do with it because then they were thinking like, wait, why exactly are we oppressing these people? What exactly? I know we're following and maintaining the rule of law, but why is the law what it is? Maybe that's worth questioning. Can you just talk about the connection between those thoughts? Well, I think it's like when someone is tapped into who they really are, they have a

more power vastly and more clarity and better sense of timing than all of the people who don't. It takes, it severs your power, I think on a spiritual way and an energetic way to be pushing someone down relentlessly. And so the people who were plugged into who they were, like Marsha, and took that like fearless moment and were like, actually,

this is not okay, are connected to a well of resource that shapes worlds. And you saw it. So I think about that all the time. It's like,

with everything that's going on right now, people who are trying to like erase our lives have a real kind of like, they're not tapped in at all. They're not tapped into who they are. And so when we meet that with an abundance of spirit, an abundance of connection to those that came before and also those who are being pushed down, I think we have the resources. We do because-

The oppressor is not dialing up the volume on their life. That's what I'm saying. That's exactly right. Yeah. But like, we are kind of forced to, I'm saying we in this sort of general sense, like we, in our oppression, our only option is just to turn up the volume. That's exactly right. Even though like despair is like the thing that's supposed to happen. Yeah. Despair is supposed to be like a transitional place for me. Like that's, that's like the thing that like,

in my queer experience that I've learned. Yeah. Are you saying that you and your drives up to Disney World are tapping into your spirituality? 100%. Okay. Like literally, I'm listening to like my manifesting tapes. I'm like, you know, listening to like LaRogie and my music and whatever. And it's that to me, I'm absolutely tapping into it. What are you doing at Disney? Okay. So I'm doing all,

all of it. Where are you most spiritually tapped in? Rise of the Resistance. Yes! Yeah, like literally. It's art. It's literally art. I'm reading Walt Disney's biography right now. Because like honestly that, I want to make art like that. Yeah. And I hope and aspire that my art builds a world that people feel invited to. That's what the point of the book is. It's like coming to

world that is expansive where you get permission to actually be who you are. And so to me, I think about other people who create on that scale, you know, and that's really my desire is like to create culture and art on that scale, whether through a photograph, a film, a book, or like a theme park. I feel,

Because you had an exhibit somewhere. You had a show somewhere where it was like a portal, right? Yeah. So the Whitney Biennial was a portal. And then also I have work up at the Met and in the Afrofuturist period room.

And it's two photographs, two self-portraits, one where I'm floating in midair in a spacesuit and the other where it's like I'm back in time in the 1800s, kind of evoking this early trans figure. Mary Jones lived on Green Street in Soho in the 1830s. And so...

The Afrofuturist period room is also like a portal, right? You get to step into a space that imagines that Seneca Village, which preceded Central Park, still exists, right? It's this question of like, what if we got to live freely? And then my hope is that people...

see in their own life, like, what if I act more freely, right? In this moment, in this moment, in this moment. So, yeah. Do you think, like, just to speak about, like, because we're talking about Disney and now it's funny because we were just talking before we got on, like, they opened Epic Universe and they used portals. Yes, portals. They literally used portals. Like, that's the language that they're using, portals into worlds, not lands, not, like, bridges. It's portals. And there is something about immersion in the sort of, um...

You know, oh my God, the girl who did the very long, the four-hour thing about Disney, the hotel. Oh, I watched that. Yes, yes, yes. Her name, Lindsay something? No, no, no. She does all these long content videos and they're so good. I really love the hotel one. The hotel one was great. She talked about this concept of immersion. Yes. About how like,

It really feels like as entertainment and as experiences and as technology goes on and on and on, I think this is kind of what Westworld was obviously getting into. It's like the kind of final frontier of entertainment and enjoying, you know, these experiences.

The goal being like full immersion. What do you think that that is? Why do you think we're there? Well, I think, you know, for me, like I make art films, right? And or kind of like short films. And so I always think about this is going to sound strange, but the first one of the first films I saw was Wizard of Oz, right? And I think about this moment, right? Where

It goes from black and white to technicolor. And it did something to my mind. It's a paradigm shift. And so I think immersion is really a paradigm shift. So I have a film, Salacia, that's at Tate Modern. And it goes from 1830s New York to Sylvia Rivera on Christopher Street along the Hudson River, which she called the River Jordan. And I was hoping to evoke that Wizard of Oz feeling that is like black and white to technicolor because when I'm immersed in something, I'm seeing it differently.

Right. Like you are kind of like hacking or editing your reality in a particular way. Yeah. That almost speaks to Marsha P. Johnson's recollection of the time because she was fully immersed in the experience. And so she cannot see it clearly because she is existing within it. Whereas from the outside, there are, of course, facts about when Stonewall happened. But when you're immersed in the experience and therefore part of the atmosphere, you can't really be expected. And also there's some joy involved.

and that. You're losing yourself into the moment. It's like when artists are performing or a musician is performing on stage, it's like you're fully there. You're fully channeling. The parameters change. The parameters change. And it says something about the fact that the collective recollection, collective recollection of Stonewall, of the riot,

is that no one quite knows exactly what happened. Exactly. It's not just one person. It's Marcia, like, not being able to recall it. It's a bunch of people. It's a lot of people because it's not... My friend Leah Lakshmi writes really beautifully about how

riots are not sane events. They're not neuro-normative events. You're in an altered state. And I think that speaks to what you're saying is like, you're not going to have total recall. You're fully in this altered place. Yeah, there was not like a first brick. Exactly. For shot glass. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Even though there were people who were first rippling out, like Marsha in the back room or Stormae or, you know, like Nova. There were people...

rippling, but these were popping off simultaneously. Yeah. You write so well in the book about the community that was built, not even around Marsha, but just with like horizontally with Marsha, just sort of like there as a leader in this space. But it's like,

It's really wild that it all is contained in the neighborhood or on Christopher Street. Like her whole life just kind of began in a way, like her parameters changed on Christopher Street at Sheridan Square. And then, you know, has this tragic, almost beautifully mysterious ending too. That's right. Right on Christopher Street. Right on Christopher Street. And like, and then that's where everyone celebrated her life after, you know, they spread her ashes at the river. Like,

The fact that it's so local and yet so globally impactful is always what's kind of crazy to me. It happened right there. The start of queer liberation happened on that street where there's McDonald's two blocks down. Yeah, and it used to be a stream. It was one of the longest streets in New York. I kind of go into the history of the city a little bit. It was like a water... Us all being water signs. It was a water pathway. Christopher Street was way hundreds of years ago.

And it had a flow and kind of like in a lyrical sense, it mirrored Marsha's flow. When I was writing the book at the end, I lived on Christopher Street. I lived on Christopher and Hudson. And it just, it was so trippy to experience how, you know, Marsha had a birth, a becoming right at Stonewall. And then there was a moment, you know, an ending, not the ending of her, but an ending of...

Christopher and Hunton in the water. And so it just is, it's so profound. And how could it not raise these kinds of spiritual questions? Yeah. I really do like believe that, and this is where I'll get Piscean woo-woo. But like there are places that just have energy. Like, and I do think that that intersection has,

has energy. Like there is an energy there. It is thick. You are more powerful there. I will always have such gorgeous memories. This is when Bowen and I were in our mid-20s.

I was dating Henry Koperski. Shout out. And he would play the piano at the downstairs duplex. And we would go and Bowen would do the most incredible performance of Lady Gaga's rendition of Bang Bang by Nancy Sinatra. And I will just never forget the people coming up to the window and looking in, not knowing it would be future superstar Bowen Yang. Literally.

But like, it's just, there was something about it. Like we were all performers there. We were all stars there. Like I remember that's where I started. Literally I started the Christmas show there. Yes. Like for 70 people upstairs. At the DuPont. Wow.

It's just seeing people go up and express themselves. That's right. You are lended that because of the history, even if you're not conscious of that. Because it's woven into the place. It's woven into the energy of the place. I think that's exactly right. My friend Randy, Randy's like 84.

now, but he was, do you ever go to Julius? Yeah, of course. So he led the sit-in before Stonewall. Wow. At Julius, you know, like this was in 1965 or something like that. A few years before Stonewall, Julius was a straight bar that refused to serve openly gay people. And,

And he went there and he led, you know, borrowed tactics from the Black Liberation Movement, the Civil Rights Movement, and he led this beautiful sit-in. And so there's all of these spots that pop off like that, so much so that it's like it's not one place. It is an abundance of places creating a very particular vibe. Yeah, it almost feels like in that it's like a true circle. Yeah.

queer bars and like a queer community, it does feel protective, almost like a witchy spiritual circle. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like you, it's like any, anything uncouth or untoward, like it's like if, yeah, it's just, it would feel like a true violation. We are protected there. And I honestly feel like the entire thing needs to be historically landmark.

mark. I fear for the duplex. I do. I like it. It bothers me to know that like it's just a building that could get taken down because it's not. It's not. Yeah. Right. And I think it's interesting, too, is, you know, like we are creating also the new places in that space when hundreds and hundreds of people showed up at, you know, in Sheridan Square and were like, you cannot erase the T from

the National Park Service websites or Erase Marsha and Sylvia. Right, exactly. I think we're creating, you know, it's like it was powerful then and it's powerful now and it's summoning force. Yeah. But then...

You can have it show up in any form where you either have hundreds of people show up at Sheridan Square or you have 15,000 people show up at the Brooklyn Museum in 2020. That's exactly right. That was a moment where I was like, oh my God, like this is how we show up now because we always were like, it's so hard to like visualize what it was like back then in the absence of like,

or photography, but it's like the way it proliferates now is even more sort of functional because it's like anyone could see that from anywhere, that image anywhere, and then go there now or just know where to find their people or resources now, which is probably most important. Okay, so there is so much to see out there on the Great White Way and the Great Off Way. I don't know. What I'm saying is Broadway and Off-Broadway. And the...

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I was literally just thinking about how if there were like justice, they'd be reading this in high school. You know what I mean? And I just, I feel like I'd be remiss not to talk about with you here, someone who's so involved in the literary and art community and like someone who's like, you know, out here writing really important work about queer historical figures. If you could just speak to and talk about what you're seeing in terms of like

attacks on these types of books and like things like that and the removal of these types of really important works that explain and, you know, include people. Yeah. And people like Marsha P. Johnson's legacy. Well, we're seeing it from obviously the highest office, political office, right? With Trump's executive orders that,

are having a real material effect on our community. You know, ever since the inauguration where he was talking about their official policy of two genders, right? I have a dear friend who tried to travel through the airport two weeks ago. I've had people, yeah. And she was, the TSA didn't allow her to enter because she has an ex-

on her ID, a state-issued ID, and they also wouldn't let her leave the airport. And so we're actually seeing these, it's not just rhetoric, it's having a real concrete effect on our lives. It's also really affecting people

I always want to make sure we're including like our trans siblings who are incarcerated. And so that it's having a huge effect on incarcerated people. And it's also affecting the classroom, right? And these institutions of art and creativity, we saw the National Endowment of Arts today, museums where my work is up. Mass MoCA just made an announcement that the NEA is withdrawing funding. So we're really seeing it in real time affect people.

Yeah. Our political landscape. So many organizations of any size are like losing out on all this NEA stuff. Yeah. Bafo, I heard, is losing out on NEA stuff. Like a lot of these, the only way that I have known how to be present because of scheduling stuff and like I literally can't even like show up like in any place outside of work right now. It's like,

okay, like, Boffo's raising funds. Let's go there. Let's drop some cash there. Let's drop some cash for the doll invasion in August. Yes. Like, let's just, like,

plop some little windfalls wherever we can. Like we as in me. I'm trying to do that in the only way that I know how now because it's like we cannot feel helpless in this moment. Exactly. Despair has to be a transitional phase. It cannot be determinist. That's exactly right. I think to me, you know, an organization that's near and dear to my heart is the Trans Justice Funding Project. So I've been raising funds for Trans Justice Funding Project, which

It gives funds to rural grassroots organizations throughout the South, First Nation organizations, which are really important, places that are not necessarily just on the coast. And so I always like to bring up, yeah. Todd, I mean, is it, how much of this do you have to sort of like,

hold in your mind at any given time. I feel like you are, in your work, you're so expansive in the people that you think about that I feel like there must be some weight to that. Yeah.

I think part of it is I've been doing this for a long time, right? And there are moments that evoke an incredible amount of grief. Seeing loved ones die from lack of care or from violence is definitely like a part of my story. This moment, for whatever reason, I also feel tapped into a sense of hope because I have come to a place where I firmly believe that

The bigger the problem, the bigger the solution. And that solutions are created from problems. And that when we pivot our focus from not, you know, it's really important to talk about the bad things going on. But also when we pivot to, well, how are we showing up in the world? You were just doing that. I think that's really magnetic change.

compelling energy. More and more people are looking for who are the helpers. I think it was like Mr. Rogers. He was like, look for the helpers, right? I firmly believe that now. It's like, who are the helpers in our community? You know, things are so hard. And when I do that,

I feel lighter. Like I have a greater sense of clarity. It's like when I clean similarly, I have a greater sense of clarity and also when I'm looking for the helpers and looking for the solutions. Driving to Disney. Literally, honestly, driving to Disney, Tiana's, Seven Dwarfs. I have yet to do Tiana's Bayou Adventure. Oh really? It broke

down when I was on the top. It stays breaking down. But it was really cool because we got to leave through the back door and see everything, which was, I mean, I love the backstage. We were on Tower of Terror when it broke down. We were high as a kite. We were high as a kite. And we were like, uh, and they come out of a hallway with fluorescent lighting. And I'm like, hey, you guys have to come down. And you literally walked down. That would be my nightmare. It was so funny. Oh my

Oh my God. But it was hilarious because then we took an actual elevator down. An actual elevator down to the ground floor. We were dying. We were like, okay. Didn't drop along the way. No drops. All we did was rise. Oh my God. And so then there was that thing of like in your head when you're expecting one thing, but then it never comes. So we kept like being like. That was me and Tiana's. We stopped literally before the last drop. Is that when Jennifer Lewis is like a push? Yes, literally.

I have to go see it for so many reasons. That's my co-star. I love that. Jennifer is a legend. But it's like AOC on her Fight the Oligarchy tour. One of the things she's been speaking to, and I do think it's so important, and it's something that I struggle with over the past six weeks. I find myself traveling a lot and doing some things that are making me happy and taking opportunities. And there is a degree of guilt because every time I turn on the news, it feels like,

It feels like depression. It feels like more darkness encroaching. But one thing she said was that you have to take your opportunities to feel joy. I remember hearing that from her. Because it could be so easy right now to forget. And then you forget what you're fighting for.

Yeah. And also when you, I have found, I don't know if you have, but when I'm in a more joyful place, I have a greater capacity to show up for people in my life. It's like my, the plug is plugged into the electricity in my joy. And so I can be channeling solutions more. And when I'm just vibing in despair, I don't necessarily lose that capacity, but it shows that it's,

it's diminished, at least for me. Of course. Yeah. And is this part of the imagination for the theme park, which is, that is kind of the ultimate place for joy. Okay. Thank you for seeing me. Of course. No, you're talking to theme parks, girl. Okay, fab. Yes. From a young age, and I do think it did come out of like,

I think my obsession with it started when I was seven or eight. We were just talking about this because Bowen and I went to Epic Universe. They were kind enough to invite us to see it. And we're going to be at the grand opening. Oh, my God. And it's so exciting. May 22nd. May 22nd. Yeah, something like that. So we're going to be there. And we were being asked because they filmed us doing they filmed us on the GoPro doing the Stardust Racers. Oh, my God. So we were asked. We were online like about our

our experiences with theme parks. And I said, I've been a Universal Parks fan since I was seven or eight and I went on the Back to the Future ride. And I remember it. I didn't understand that immersive entertainment like that. And I think it made me want to be creative. And I think that's why it's important. And that's why I get on my soapbox so much about them lowering those goddamn prices because families need to be able to experience that. That is what Walt would have wanted, etc. But my thing is it

It is really formative for a young kid. Like, we went into the Super Nintendo world. And my sister, who's a grown-ass woman, like, walked in and has tears in her eyes. And I'm like, yeah, imagine being a child. Exactly. Like, it's crazy. Those experiences are so special. Yeah. I can only go so often because of the Florida discount. Well, yes. Which is incredible. It's like, it's much more discounted.

Everyone should have access to places that help them plug in their light to have a greater sense of imagination. You know, there's this moment where I think it's Kevin Costner talking about riding the original Disney rides over and over and over again. My whole YouTube algorithm is theme parks. Okay, me too. I'll just be on Disney.

comes up for me. I've been listening to Alicia Stella's podcast. Yes, literally. Shout out, Alicia. You are amazing. Jenny Nicholson, by the way. Jenny Nicholson. We forgot her name. She's a legend. But like, I'm not biodeconstruct looking at the, what's your algorithm? Okay, so it's all like epic, Disney, and then like manifesting. That's literally all it is. That's a great little trio. Yeah.

That's really good. They talk to each other. They literally talk to each other because you have to, like, for me at least, I have to imagine it into being, right? And Marsha was doing that. I write a little bit about the hot spring hotels in Times Square, right? These were hourly hotels where, you know, you literally would be arrested for,

if you were a trans person, expressing any part of your authenticity in Times Square, right? Because they would assume it was solicitation. Exactly. And these laws actually stayed into the books. You know, 2020 was when the three articles... I was going to say... Andrew Cuomo, former governor, right? And so, Marsha, when they could hustle a little bit of money, they would rent these hourly hotels and they called them hot spring hotels because whatever season it was, it was always really hot. But these were places where

they would dream their life into being, right? They would have a little bit of relief from the police and violence on the street. And they would ask each other again and again and again, like, what would it feel like to be able to move through the world with a greater sense of ease or a greater sense of freedom? And so to me, those places, whether it's the hourly hotel or a Disney theme park or Epic

those are the places that we get to, at least for me, imagine a world where we get to show up more free and more playful. Yeah. The site specificity is important because I was going to say like even like the porn theaters in Times Square. Yeah. There'd be places where like they would just stay all day. Exactly. And think and just like they were being like a little black box space or whatever. Like the world was at some remove. Exactly. So that they could like act

access this like imagination spirituality a little bit better. And Samuel Delaney, I don't know if you've read like Times Square Red, Times Square Blue, writes about it really beautiful. But, you know, and also Marsha came from a place of like kind of

naivete, right? Like she was, you know, she was working at child's restaurant. So she was a waitress and then she was befriending these street queens like Sylvia, who was 13. I can only imagine. It's insane to think that. Literally. And then was going to these theaters and there's this interview where she's talking about, oh,

like you won't lick that man's toes. You know, she's in her mind kept getting blown by this imagery and being like, oh, like I guess people are doing these things. So it was really powerful to like read that part. It's a portal. It's a portal. It's a portal. And how do you feel this way about children's literature? Like our friend Julio was telling us like he wrote this beautiful children's book and

whatever, I did like a book event with him. I was like, what inspired you to write children's literature? And he was like, it's the most politically powerful medium that we have. Yeah, so I also wrote a children's book that comes out the same day. It's called One Day in June and it starts with a

caretaker with a little one on Reese Beach. I don't know if y'all go to Queer Haven Sanctuary. And then it goes up to Raquel Willis's speech at the Brooklyn Museum with 15,000 people. And it's really about channeling that frequency, just like a radio station of Marsha.

And how she is in the everyday. She's in the permission to be all of who we are. She's in, you know, worker who is giving her tips to someone who can't afford to buy their kid ice cream. She's in the dancing at Raul. She's, you know, or the club. You know, it's like all of this vibe is very available. And to me, in a moment when young ones, kids are being told really firmly that either they don't exist, that their truth exists,

is wrong and they need to change or they're just, you know, turning the dial of their life and truth down. It was really important to have a book that's not that, right? That's we're giving ourselves permission to play and to try new things and also to connect it to a history that is still so palpable. Yeah. Talk about this...

really interesting metaphor that I feel like you're returning to, which is turning up the volume, adjusting to the frequency, like plugging in. It feels like you're describing life in a way or just like, you know, the human experience in a way that is very like...

that's a toggle or that can be like modulated in a sense. Absolutely. And in a way, I kind of, not in a way, I really do love that. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's just how I've come to experience the world. Yeah. That there is something underpinning all of our experience and whether you call that like God or the universe or source or joy, which is just another word for it, you can readily tune to that wherever you are. And so, yeah,

A lot of times when you're feeling fear, the path of least resistance to that is to get really angry about the situation. That brings you closer to a feeling of clarity and joy and that frequency that's fully available. So to me, part of that is just like a basis of manifesting. And so there are people who are talking about manifesting or bring things into the material. But I really believe that there is a Marsha frequency, you know, like a joy frequency that when we're feeling anger,

all of who we are and we're inviting all aspects of ourself into the room, we have a clear, clear access to that. There's a really wonderful thing about listening to Marsha's voice that I found. I've like pressed play on videos or just like there's footage of her in your film. Yeah. Happy birthday, Marsha. Where...

I could just like listen to her talk all day. Like she would have torn it up on a podcast. Literally. You know what I mean? Literally. She's hilarious. She's so funny. I mean, she's so funny. Original. And I was here yesterday because my friend Raquel Willis is doing a podcast about Marsha called Afterlives. And she was talking about seeing these YouTube clips of Marsha that Randy Ricker was filming. And Marsha just has great timing. You know, she's like, get your heart ready for heart failure to the end.

the filmer, right? And then she's like, and then I'll get the camera. You know, you're going to expire because of my outfit and then I'm going to jack your camera. And it's just like these bits that she was always doing. And she modeled herself a lot of her performance work off of Billy Burke, who was the original Glenda. And was a vaudeville actress. And so Marsha did this. She was playing the ditch. She was like the bimbo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was playing the bimbo.

And she was well aware. Like there was a moment when she was in the West End in London, the only time she really traveled from the U.S. And she was at Drill Hall, which is now Rada Studios. And she was performing the dits and the audience didn't get it. Like people were writing like Marsha must have be having an off night because she's not quite hitting the notes, you know, or she's not really remembering her lines. But that was her persona. And she did it so well. And, and,

I've just one week before she died, she said, I love when people think I'm just a ditz or a silly little street queen because I can work them out of their money. Like she was well aware from childhood. She was in a chorus with her brother Bob and her sister Jeannie in Elizabeth, New Jersey. And they used to go around to the neighbors and sing for money.

And she would sing completely off key. And Jeannie Michaels is like, but they always gave her the money. And it was because she was doing this on purpose. Yeah. They love to see a little kid like go all over the scale. And they're just like, oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. A true performer. A true performer. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

This is Bowen Yang. And Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. This podcast is sponsored by PayPal. All right, readers, Katie's Publishers finalists. Kiles, it's time to talk about one of the most iconic payment brands out there. That's right. It's PayPal. PayPal lets you do you, meaning you can pay your own way with just a click. Once you click the PayPal button, you can choose from a bunch of different ways to pay.

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Speaking of conjuring up the childhood memories, we have to ask you the question. Yes. The central question of Lost Culture is this, which is what was the culture that made you say culture was for me? Like that formative element of whatever kind of pop culture or culture in general that made you feel. Well, we talked about Wizard of Oz, but also you know,

with my dad, I went to matinee films because they were cheaper. Yeah. And I, we saw literally like every single Eddie Murphy movie. Oh my God. That's so funny you say that. Really? My dad did the same thing with Eddie Murphy. Oh my God. It was the only movie that he was like, we're getting in the car. And my dad like kind of styled himself off of Eddie Murphy. And so, you know, it was all of it. Right. But I remember Harlem Nights with Della Reese and those costumes and Richard Pryor. And then, you know, later The Wiz with, um,

Richard Pryor and the Emerald Sequence scene. But it was really that humor. Yeah. And which I lost for a little while. But I remember that we went to have a good time. We went to have fun. Yeah. And it was like everything Eddie Murphy. And so that really was like

jealousy is a good indicator for me because it shows me what I want to be doing. And so when I'm like jealous about someone's career, it's not like I hope they don't have it. I'm like, I want to be doing that thing. Thank you, jealousy. That's really important. And so it's like, I can remember being jealous, you know, as a little kid of all these people who got to act on stage. And you're like, I want to be doing that.

And you get it in your head like you hate them. You get it in your head that you hate them, but you really just want to do what they're doing, but don't know how to do it. That's all that jealousy is. And so to me, I was like, I can just remember being Harlem Nights, you know, Beverly Hills, all of the Beverly Hills cops, you know, like Golden Chai.

All of them were, I was just like, I want to be one of these people on screen, like having a ball. I was jealous of Raven for being in Dr. Dolittle 2. Oh my God, yeah. Because she gets to play Eddie Murphy's daughter. I don't know why. I was like, I want to be Eddie's son. My dad put me in that car and said, get in the car. And we went to see Nutty Professor 2. Mind-blowing. The clumps. Oh my God, the clumps.

with Janet Jackson. Janet. And I could tell it was for him. Yes, totally. But I had so much joy because my dad was sharing something explicitly with, and he never took me to the movies. It was that and I told you, Good Burger. And Good Burger. But Eddie doing drag and so many movies. It was like, mind-blowing as a little child. Yeah, it really is. Where'd you grow up? I grew up in Roxbury, which is a part of Boston. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then, also it's so cool that Mass Mocha, like,

that you're there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But okay, can we do an assessment as a group about the movie Norbit? Totally. Because I thought stowed out of my mind in high school and I'm yet to rewatch it and I'm nervous to revisit it because I'm like, this is going to be so...

This is going to be so chaotic for so many reasons. But is it worth... I'm like, do I just go home and watch Norbit sometime soon? I think so. He's a genius. He's a genius. He's a literal... And he's also kind of ahead of the curve in a very particular consistent way where I feel like so much later you might be picking up something that...

You didn't see it first? Totally. I feel like something, though, that, like, fucking sucks to have to tackle this type of thing. Yeah. But I feel like we're talking about a couple things where there are, like, there's elephants in the room, right? Yes. There's an elephant in the room with Eddie Murphy's homophobia. Yes. There's an elephant in the room with...

epic universe having Harry Potter and the JK Rowling. Absolutely. I just wonder, like, how do you personally navigate that and filter that? Because I find myself having a really hard time with it. Yeah. Of course, these are in the past, et cetera, but yes. I think it's, you know, it's interesting because when I say my dad really, like, styled George Gossett Jr. himself off of Eddie, like, it was...

all of it. It was also the homophobia and transphobia, right? And he died in 2010. And in a similar way that I have a kind of like spiritual relationship with Marsha, I have one with my dad where it is really easy to see now that people who are

saying the most kind of like intense, vile things also around HIV and AIDS and, you know, like it's all of it, right? Are either like not surrounded by our community. Yeah. Right? Which in and of itself is you're missing out on such a blessing. Yeah. So that's like a place of, oh, like you are really missing out. Yeah, it sucks for you. You know, like it sucks for you. And then also when people are doing that, it's so clear that,

No one who's feeling really good about themselves is consistently attacking another person. Right. I just don't think, I can't, I don't think that you can be in a place of joy and also be pushing against someone. She's not happy sitting in her house. That's what I'm saying. On Twitter all day. And so to me, I'm like, I just have a place of, I think I give like maybe Eddie Murphy a lot of grace around, okay, you were young. And that's a long time ago. And doing comedy. Yeah. Yeah.

from a family that maybe... I don't know. I'm just like, you're a famous young black person and all of a sudden everything that you're saying is the talk of the town. Of course. And so it's not like my dad who says homophobic things and then no one knows about. Right. But it's everywhere. And so to me, I'm like, oh, this is so sad for you. Right. And also, I just, I don't know, I have such a warm spot in my heart around Eddie Murphy. Yeah. Because... Sure. And with J.K. Rowling...

She seems so miserable. Yeah. And I'm just like, what's going on there, girl? Like, something is going on because you are so going out of your way to attack like my community when we're literally just being alive. Yeah. And then, you know, the celebration of the UK Supreme Court. I don't know if y'all saw that. Yeah. It's disgusting. There's something so intense going on if a symbol of freedom

a symbol of expansiveness is causing such a knee jerk response that you have to go out of your way to attack it. And so I'm like, you are not connected to what I'm about, right? Like you are, you can't be in a place of pleasure and happiness and joy when you're going out of your way to do that. And so with her, I'm just like, bless you on your journey. You're either going to figure it out now or like when you're immaterial and yeah, I don't know. It's like,

My only, the only way I can rationalize it with her is that it's like, oh, you got so rich and famous off of writing this morality tale that your set of morals, your code of morals is sort of indisputable. And it's the only thing, it's the only correct thing in the world. And that she, the mechanism by which she's putting down trans people is by victimizing cis women in a way that is like indisputable.

more dire than what's... Literally. In a way that it's, like, not happening. It's, like, it's... Yes. It's fabricated. It's completely... All of it is fabricated, right? The fear is completely fabricated because the scary things that they're talking about aren't being committed or produced by transgender nonconforming people, which are such a small part of the population and are, like, we're just trying to live. This is a fabricated, like...

fear responds to either not being able to figure out the economy. So you're blaming like transphobes, you know, and, or whatever's going on with JK, like not being able to figure out her own stuff. And so to me, yeah, it's, it's completely, did y'all go into the Harry Potter ride? We, I mean, we did. Speaking of, the thing is like, this is my, and I struggle. Yeah. And my thing was like,

you know what, I just thought about relatives that I have that now have really gone hard for Trump. Yeah. And I can't recognize them from what they were when I was growing up. And the fact is, they're not the same person, but they will not take my memories of them from when I was a kid. And so I kind of just said like, you know what,

She is not going to ruin this thing for me that like, again, made me want to be creative, made me want to be who I am. I love that. And my thing is just like, I'm just not going to let her have that. I'm not going to let her cloud. That's right. Like ruin this like experience for me. And the thing too is just like, you

You know what's great? The Dark Universe. Yeah, that's what I heard. The Dark Universe is amazing. And How to Turn Your Dragon Universe, which we haven't, I've never seen the movies. I loved it. Totally. I love that. Okay. That's wonderful. The Harry Potter thing is, I understand why they did it because it's such a cash cow. Yeah, of course. And I will say, the ride is actually kind of cunty because it's like Dolores Umbridge's trial. And I'm like, God damn it. Why am I walking in here having thought feelings when it's like a trial ride? It's like so gay. You know what I mean?

I mean, it's like you're walking in and it's like she's on trial. We're going to watch her be named guilty. And she catches free and Imelda Stoughton comes back and gives like a fierce performance. And you're like, oh my God, JK, shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. Fuck up. Fuck up.

But where are you at? Will you go in there? I mean, yeah. You know... Because it's like, you would not be abandoning anything about your transness by going there necessarily. Wasn't it kind of revolutionary? Isn't it like people showing up to places where they're not wanted is kind of like... Yeah. Not the revolutionary thing to do, but kind of like the thing that... It's transformative to be in a place where they're not up to speed with your beauty or your value or your worth or your deservingness and to just not...

turn your dial to that, but to like, actually, I belong everywhere I go. Right. Exactly. Including this place that I love. Yeah. Especially as like, as someone who's like, it's such a crazy moment in theme park history too. It's like the epic universe of it all. By the way, it is that good. Like the hype is so real. Yeah. It's like the first time in 25 years that they've opened like a major theme park like that. And it's like, it's just what they've done with the theme park technology. You're going to be surprised

so good for this Monsters Unchained ride. Like, it's really good. And just like the story that they tell with that, we've been joking about Victoria Frankenstein on this podcast for a year. It's a gag. I love that. She's a queen. She's definitely a queen. She might be winning a culture award. She's gonna win a culture award.

But it's a lot of fun. Yeah. And we are the ambassadors of Celestial Park. That's right. Of the Hubland. It's our official title now. I heard it was also like the Hubland's pretty chill. It's very chill. Yeah. And so it's like if you're overstimulated, maybe you go to Celestial Park or whatever. It feels like Epcot in that way.

Yeah. I was just at Epcot for the Flower Garden Festival. It's beautiful. It's so beautiful. I felt like the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens with Guardians of Galaxy. I know. The thing I was most gagged by were those bonsai trees. Yes. The bonsai trees. 700-year-old bonsai trees that are just out there. It's crazy. Oh, my God. And then, of course, I love to go for food and wine. Yeah. I'll just go in there by myself and knock down some apps. There you go. Have a day. Oh, my God.

Oh my God. They were in technical rehearsal when we did it. Right. So I can tell there was like some fog effects and some stuff turned off. Okay.

They're going to figure it out. I'm excited. Does newness kind of like have this like counterforce to it where it's like it makes you nostalgic? Because now because going to Epic made me want to like go to Universal and just go on the old rides or just go to Disney and go on the classic rides too. And I'm just like, oh, this kind of opens it up to like everything for me where I'm like, I want to do it all. Yeah. Honestly, part of, you know, not to with Marcia's like part of when drag became so popular.

pop culture, I was so interested in the origins, right? Like, I don't know if you're familiar with the Angels of Light, but they came out of the cockettes and the bae, glitter beards. Like, so many of the looks that we're seeing these days came from, like, Marsha, Angels of Light, and also the Hot Peaches, right? These, like, early 60s, 70s performers. And so, to me, I'm always about, like, that nostalgia. I'm a Cancer, so, like, the nostalgia of it all. But, yeah, I fall into that. I went to...

Islands of Adventure for the first time when I was 16 in 2000. And it blew my mind. There was like the dueling dragons and all of that. And then I went, I hadn't gone back for so many years and I wasn't sure like, how's it going to feel comfortable? Is it going to feel safe? And the thing that I really was paying attention was like, I remember when this, when I was this year old and I was blown away and now it's like,

evolved into this other beautiful thing that's capturing my imagination. So I'm kind of like in between that nostalgia and the wow, the evolution of it all. And like, I think I went to like a La Mama show like 10 years ago or something. And like, I think you like shed light on like the way that like all these different theater communities were intertwined together, especially in the 70s. Yeah. Or especially when Marsha was performing in them. So like, was it, was Hot Peaches and

Angels of Light. Was that coming from like theater for the new city? No, like, like, like break it down for me. So, okay. So Marsha performed at theater of the new city with the Angels of Light. So like by the Jane hotel right now. So, and also La Mama and all of these really beautiful places. Um, the hibiscus came out of the cock cats and angel Jack. And so they really created something that had never been seen before, right? Their performances included, um,

like the enchanted miracle where a big storybook was on stage and for each new scene, the page would be turned. It was this like, you know, technology, right? This immersive experience that the audience was really getting into. And Marsha did this really great thing of direct address with the audience. They just let her riff. They just let her riff. They let her riff. She was so good. She'd be like, hello, Sylvia, you know, and there's this beautiful recording of Sylvia Rivera, who I think a lot of times we just think of as an activist person.

But she's talking about seeing Marsha on stage dressed as a queen from a faraway land and like going after this person who stole her lover and is just screaming at the top of her lungs. And the audience is growing and getting more and more ecstatic. And Marsha was plugging in the light for so many people in that moment. So I think that was that early kind of drag moment.

performance work was plugging in the light for the audience that was growing. Yeah. I love that you speak in this, in this metaphor. And I, and like, that's such a great model for like, anyone would be so lucky to create a space where people go to plug, to plug in.

Exactly. You know what I mean? Exactly. And I think that's what culture at its best does. And that's what your podcast does. Like you're both doing it all the time. I was watching episodes of Game Show. You know what I mean? And you know, like you've been like, we're all doing it, right? Like, I think that's what we're aspiring to do is like create spaces, whether it's a podcast or a game show or SNL or a film where we're able to play.

plug in and we're able to leave transformed. We're able to go from black and white to technicolor. We're able to like go through the portal and experience something incredibly immersive and then be like, I can do that. I can do that. And it doesn't have to stay right here. I can do it everywhere. One of my favorite lines from any piece of art I've seen or I've heard over the past couple of years is there's this play, The Hills of California, that's on Broadway now. And there's this beautiful part where...

where she goes over to the piano, the character, and she says, you know, talking about music and talking about songs. She's like, a song is just a place to live for three minutes. Yes. And I was just like, that's why music is my escape. And that connected to everything from when I was younger about that thing of like walking into this area where all of a sudden there was something else. It was just like, I think that that is another reason why a lot of queer people gravitate towards music.

Those theme parks. That's exactly right. Because there is a big gay community. Because I think...

What I was saying earlier was I didn't realize it, but I needed a place to be that wasn't my own head or my own reality because there was this thing encroaching, which was you don't belong here. You don't belong here. You don't belong here. And suddenly it didn't matter what the rules were in a world that's fake and immersive. That's exactly right. And so a song is a place to live for three minutes. It's like when I feel like I want to escape whatever it is, I will put on a song that elicits a certain emotion because in that emotion, it's also alive.

changing the reality. That's exactly right. And you're moving from sometimes a place of despair to a place of anger, to a place of like, you know, optimism, to a place of hope, and then to a place of like positive expectation and knowing that things are going to be okay. And that's the song's power. Yes. Or even if it's not escaping, it's I'm angry and I want to feel this at 15 out of 10. Exactly. You know what I mean? Like,

Yeah. On Kink is Karma by Chapel Roan. That's right. I hate my ex-boyfriend. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, I need to sob because I'm grieving. That's right. I need to, I want to party. So listen to this party song. I want to feel like I, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's turning up the volume. That's exactly right. On that emotion. Yeah, that's exactly right. Wow.

I am curious to know, like, are you done with New York for good or are you like... Totally. So I moved to Miami because my partner is an environmental lawyer and she is, that's where she's working. And there's, so I moved after 22 years. I was saying like, I hadn't left New York for longer than three weeks. You're a double lifer. But you did your time, you know? That's why I'm asking. Yeah.

I like the time I left the longest was I was working for Dee Reese who directed Pariah and Bessie and Mudbound and I was her assistant. Wow. It was a great film for Mudbound and you know so I was in Louisiana and that was a really clarifying experience and I came back to New York like

you know, ready to direct Happy Birthday Marsha Part 2. And I think I'm having a similar powerful experience where I'm so grateful for the artists and the organizers and the friends in Miami who are really received me so warmly. Because there's so much happening in that city that people are organizing around and are affected by. And also, I don't know, I do feel this is my home. Like my mom lives here and my siblings. And so...

You know, this is... It's home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a power base. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. But I live in this beautiful neighborhood of Miami called Coconut Grove. It's like a historically Bahamian community. Yeah. And it's so lush. Mm-hmm.

And I feel it in my body, like how much it makes sense. And there's like hundreds of peacocks walking around my neighborhood and my cat is so happy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, sometimes I feel like you just get used to a certain pace of life that you realize it's unreasonable once you go somewhere else and just allow yourself to. It's like I needed to leave New York when I did. Yeah. And I was I just I.

it's really interesting because I came back and what I've been saying to people that are like, oh, why did you come back? It's like, because the things you didn't like or don't like about New York are all kinds of things you can change. Yes. Like they're all individual. It's like everywhere else. It's like, you're going to have to deal with what it is. But New York is a lot more multifaceted. Yeah. Much, many more experiences. There are many kinds of lifestyles there than I think I thought. Totally. And so I think I needed to go away and have my shoulders drop.

to come here and understand how to drop them in New York City. Yeah, that's exactly right. Because you're on guard all the time and ready to go all the time. And like, you know, got your armor on and, you know, ready to go. But then you can come back and be like, now that I've like, as an adult live somewhere else, I can be an actual adult here. That's right. Yeah. No, it's that transition moment. So necessary. Yeah, truly. Yeah. I did feel in reading the book though, like everything about my life in New York, it's like,

you end with a thank you. You say thank you, Marsha. And the whole time, even before I got to the ending, I was just like, I owe everything to this one person who has been in my consciousness for as long as I've read up on queer history. But I'm also like, I cannot even begin to understand all the material things about my life that wouldn't be possible without her. Yeah, no, that's why I ended with thank you, Marsha. It felt like

I started learning about Marsha over 20 years ago and it's just felt like a gift. So to know her in a particular kind of like spiritual sense and to get close to the people who I named who are still around here right now in a physical sense. And so that's the spirit that I hoped to offer through the book. It's like, I received this gift. I would love to share this gift with

with everyone and take it how you will. But for me, it just, it felt really important to move through that spirit of generosity. You've imparted that in such a huge way and like, just down to like my own individual history. I know, and like Matt's too, of like, oh my God, like that Downstein thing

Was it a sit-in or what would you call that? Yeah, so they, so Marsha and Sylvia. The dining hall is called Downs. Exactly, yeah. They occupied, they had an occupation in 1970, September of Weinstein Hall. They took it over, right? They were street queens living in Washington Square Park. And they were like,

NYU, New York University is refusing to have gay dance parties in the heart of this, you know, haven for queer and trans people. That's not okay. We're going to take it over. And it was this really beautiful moment where they were modeling what they dreamed up in those hourly hotels. They dreamed up a sense of connection and community. Marsha was making food. They were, you know, kind of modeling after the Black Panther Party too, where everyone was invited to eat. And so,

They were just like creating the world that they wanted to live in. Sometimes we call that prefiguring the world that we want, right? And they were doing that kind of prefiguration.

And they were in the basement. They were in the basement. Which is where the buffet dining hall was. When we went there, it was where you would go to like get your hangover omelet. Oh my God, I love that. And like the fact that like... Yes, that's where they were living. It all like started like a year after Stonewall. This is where like this was like the extension, the continuation that was happening like where like I was like eating...

eating my home fries. That's exactly right. 40 years later, I'd be bitching about the craft of writing. Literally. But we wouldn't have gone to NYU. I think you were writing at the time also wasn't really even admitting a lot of queer students. Exactly. And we're there. We're there because of them. And also they were doing these incredible, they were dreaming about

Things in the basement of NYU where y'all were hung over about like access to gender affirming care. Right. They were literally talking about access to medical care. They were talking about also for things that didn't directly affect them for, you know, cis women to have daycare so that they could attend college for college to be free for, you know.

housing, it was really important for them to dream up because they knew that you two would come along and be the beneficiaries of the dream and you wouldn't need to necessarily do the same thing. I think you write about this in the book where it's like their transness was the thing that like was able to confer like possibility onto like a huge, a mass group of people.

Like the world. Exactly. The literal world. The literal world. I learned so much reading this. Thank you for reading it and engaging in it. This space should be on the dollar. First of all, I want to live in that world. It's just amazing. And you did such incredible work. And I have to imagine that this was not easy.

And it must have took years. Well, I was writing for five years. And then before that, it was like 15 years of research. But it felt like a gift. Like it honestly felt every time I learned something new or I met someone who was grumpy and lived, you know, like and who knew Marsha, but ended the conversation really joyful. All of it, it just felt like a gift. But all of that is exactly what we were talking about earlier with like, you know, the lack of quote unquote correct recollection. It's like people are

all the things. Exactly. And that is what makes her not just, you know, someone who's a source on Stonewall and that area and that time, but she is that time. That's exactly right. It is all those things. And so we're going to do I Don't Think So, Honey, but May 20th. May 20th. Marsha.

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Okay. I have something for I Don't Think So Honey and it involves my sister. Hey. You. All right. This is, oh, me. All right. This is I Don't Think So Honey. This is our one minute segment in which we take one minute to rage, rant against something in the culture. Matt Rogers has something. This is Matt Rogers' I Don't Think So Honey. His time starts now. I Don't Think So Honey. Why haven't they got my girl Bowen Yang at the McDowell? Oh,

My boy should have been at... No, I want the invitation in the mail for next year already. You would have torn up a suit. You tailored a Michael Fisher? At M. John F. Scroll through. Look at my girl slaying every look. You know he's a fashion icon. What was that photo shoot you did with the Pikachu backpack? Oh, that was Ryan McGinley from New Yorker. That was an award-winning photo shoot with award-winning styling and an award-winning...

Subject. Why isn't my girl at the Met Gala? I want to see my girl walking up the steps. I want to see him ignoring the press. I want to see him in a hat. I want to see him doing daring fashion. And here's the thing. If Bowie Yang's not invited, I'm never getting invited. And I want to go to the Met Gala. I understand this makes my chances of being invited much less. Because I'm dragging you. And I went torn. I'll tell you his address. It's...

- And that's one minute. - Oh, thank you, Matt. Beautiful. Well, listen, I kind of prefer just watching from home. - Yeah, but you know what? Just go to the carpet. - Get the phone out on the side. Don't get in trouble like Megan Thee Stallion did. - I've seen "Ocean's 8." I know what's going on inside. You know what I mean? - That is so- - You don't need to go. - I don't need to go to the Met Gala. I've seen "Ocean's 8." That's a rule of culture number 60. I don't need to go to the Met Gala. I've seen "Ocean's 8." - Literally.

It's shocking. I thought you had, I just, wow. No, oh my goodness. Doesn't it just make sense? I feel like this year would have been so good for you too because it was all about suiting. I mean, what did you think of the Met Gala? I thought it was fab. Yeah, it was really great gear. Danny, that was a great thing. Yeah. Great thing. No, I think that

to quote Marsha it's like the party is wherever she goes you're right so the party was at your address last night the party was at my address I had people over I invited you over how many people did you have over it was just four of us it was just me Josh Ben and Thomas oh okay but I was in the weeds moving again like you know how it is we talked about it but another time we'll hang out laughing

Okay, Bowen Yang, do you have an I Don't Think So Honey? I have an I Don't Think So Honey. I love to hear it. Okay, this is Bowen Yang's I Don't Think So Honey. His time starts now. I Don't Think So Honey. Make Times Square dirty, filthy, porny again. Times Square, Times Square Blue. This is why Times Square is so important in the city. You need cross-class interaction in every great city. That is how you engender solidarity. That is how you get people to work together to solve problems. We can't be

silent in our neighborhoods now. And I especially don't think so, honey. Another neighborhood, the West Village, being overtaken by these girlies who are like just doing their silly little TikToks. Nothing wrong with that. It's just, it cannot be all the tone of that neighborhood anymore. That is rich,

in terms of history and wealth, let's say, but it's just, we need our neighborhoods to retain some of their authenticity. Times Square being all like M&M's store, McDonald's is funny and ironic. And I think there's a huge opportunity to make those spaces fun and crazy and absurd. Like let's make those like weird, sexy, horny places. You know what I mean? I catch me cruising at the...

Olive Garden at the Madame Tussauds. And that's one minute. You know what I mean? Wouldn't it be fun to just like make Times Square a little bit like filthier again? Literally. It would be fun. Bring back the Barnum Theater. Just make that fun. Because we used to work here all the time. Yeah. Or down there like by the drop of a bookshop. Oh, yeah. I can see the bones of when this had like character to it. Yes. You can still feel it. But otherwise it's like sanitized and I'm like, no, but like.

It's still there. It's still there. Let's like tap into that. You can still smell the cum on the walls. It's like an old rose. I can still smell the cum on the walls. There you go. All right. So it's your turn. It's your turn. Okay. Do you have something? I have a little bit of a something. Okay. Let's blow it out to a lot of bit of a something. Okay. Help me, you know, feel free to punch it up. All right. Okay. So this is tourmalines. I don't think so, honey. Her time starts now. Okay.

I don't think so, honey, to this small time dreaming. We are literally in a moment as the empire is collapsing and our economy is dust to dusting that, like we're all saying, it's time to go after your dreams. There is no point carving out a small space on a sinking ship just for our survival. Now is the time to dream as big as the problems are. This is how we transform the world. Yes! Yes!

Yes! Did it in 30. Did it in 30. She's a fucking writer. She's a poetess. Said it in less words and more poignantly than we could ever. Yeah, I mean, something about you saying like big problems call for inspire big solutions. Like, that's tea. I really feel that way. You know? Like, I really, really feel that way. And this is the actual time.

Exactly. And you can feel it, right? Like we can feel this thing not working. It is so clear that this moment is illuminating how it's not lasting. Yeah. So why not? Like why not be inspired to think of a dream that's a little bit bigger than the empire that's crumbling around us? Totally. Totally.

Like, what is there to lose? What is there to lose? Yeah, absolutely. Literally nothing. I mean, our theme parks. You've really done something here. I mean, this is Marsha, the joy and defiance of Marsha P. Johnson. It is out May 20th and you would enrich yourself to read it.

You don't have to be queer. You don't have to be a New Yorker. You don't have to be someone that's interested in history. You can be all those things and more. And you would get so much out of this. It's beautiful work. And we thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. It really means a lot.

a lot and it means a lot that you read and engaged the book and shared so much about how it affected you and your own stories and I'm just thinking about Marsha and you in the basement of Weinstein Hall time traveling with the two drunk you know up and coming girlies when time is a flat circle we did meet there that's exactly right that's exactly right yeah yeah thank you congratulations we end every episode with a song we end every episode with a song

Don't you know that I heard it through the grapevine? How much longer would you be mine? Well, you know, I'm realizing now, is that the melody? I think I had it. This is like the one Marvin Gaye song that I don't know. I mean, you know, I used to know it because I used to do it on American Idol all the time. That's my little white gay ass. On American Idol all the time. It always has some Clay Aiken singing it. Bye! Yay!

So good. That was so good. That was so much fun. That's right. It's pay.

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Matt, I know you agree with me, but I've always felt that it's important to set standards for yourself. I think standards are, yeah, important. Yes, I think I do agree. I think I have a standard of living and a standard of loving.

I should have a better standard of loving. Joke, joke, joke. Joke, joke, joke. Anyway, the standard Lexus has set for themselves, it's to experience amazing. Lexus's benchmarks are feelings like exhilaration and joy when you're behind the wheel. A feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer.

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