‘Andor’ Season 2, Episodes 4-6 Deep Dive
02:57:53 Share

This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card is a no-fee credit card that gives you daily cash back every day. That's 3% back at Apple and 2% back on every purchase made with Apple Card using Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card, the wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of January 1st, 2025. Apple Card issued.

by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. It's starting to look like spring and spring starts with savings at The Home Depot. There are savings for every project, whether you're starting with a queen slate with convenient cordless power, like a new pressure washer.

or leaf blower, or starting to love the yard again with colorful flowers and fresh mulch. Start your spring with early savings at the Home Depot. Shop now at homedepot.com. Greetings and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today to ask, really? It's an assignment. Calibrate your enthusiasm. It's Joanna Robinson.

Mallory Rubin, sit down, get comfortable. We're going to try to get through three episodes of very dense television on one podcast. Pray for us to whatever deity you prefer. We've recorded four hour pods before.

I've never been so anxious about a runtime as I am sitting down to do this today. We could do 10 hours on these episodes easily, and yet we're going to try not to. Let's see how it goes. Very quickly, Joe, we've got a lot cooking over here on House of R, over on the Ringiverse, on Prestige TV, everywhere. It's a busy time. Here's what everybody needs to know. We're covering Andor. The Midnight Boys, pew, pew, will have instant reactions up every Wednesday. We will have our House of R deep dives up, depending on your time zone, very late on Thursday nights or waiting for you when you wake up on Thursdays.

Friday mornings. We are also, of course, all covering Last of Us. So you can get the Midnight Boys, pew, pew, instant reactions. Yeah. Sunday nights. Our deep dives, Monday evenings. The Watch, checking in on Mondays. Joe and Rob are checking in on Prestige TV with interviews, with game talk, with spoiler dives, all of it. And then Ben and Daniel on Button Mash are doing gamer guides. Robust. But that's not all because it's Thunderbolts week. Yeah.

We're excited. We're going to pod about Thunderbolts tomorrow. We can't wait. I'm so excited. I'm going again tonight. I can't wait. Same. Thrilled. Thrilled, thrilled, thrilled. Joanna, that's a lot. How can everybody follow along? Subscribe to the pod. It's a great idea on your favorite podcaster of choice. Why not? Follow us on social, on whatever social media platform that you enjoy. And of course, email us hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com.

Thank you for all of the truthers out there who agree with me that Sinta flipped the speeder over to dump Tay out. I mean... You have a lot of support. I have a lot of support. I think it's canon now. I think we've all decided. Is that how that works? Okay, cool. Yeah. I mean, I think once the show presents like a mystery accident, why not? Speaking of which, spoiler warning. Sorry.

We will, of course, be going beat by beat, in depth, deep, deep, deep, through Andor's second arc of season two. We're talking about episodes four, five, and six today. But if it's ever happened in Andor previously this season, season one, it's fair game today. Guess what? If it's ever happened anywhere in Star Wars, it could potentially come up today. That's the spoiler warning. There's a thing that we're trying to be a little cautious about because...

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. We might give you one or two of our trademark. If you don't want to hear this, hit fast forward twice. You know, we might. We'll see. We'll see how the spirit moves us. Pretty friendly space on the spoiler front today outside of a couple spots. Joe, those are the programming reminders. Anything else before we dive in? I don't think so. I'm just so excited. I didn't think anything could...

I don't know if this tops Aldani, but it's like as good as Aldani was. And that is wild to me. So let's do it. All right, let's get right to the opening snapshot. Joanna. Hi. Episodes four, five, and six. Ever been to Gorman? I have friends everywhere. And what a festive evening. All of these were once again directed, just like the first arc of season two by Arielle Kleiman and written by Narkina Five-Arc legend,

Bo Willimon. You already teased that you think these episodes, which are set in 3 BBY, so one full year after Arc 1, are among the best things Andor has ever done. Correct. What other, give us a quick little taste of any other opening snapshot thoughts that you want us to carry with us before we head into our deep dive. Yeah, just some big picture thoughts, I guess. Um...

Working inside the system versus working outside the system, I think. Like, at what time do you just abandon any attempt to work inside the system and have to make your cause from the outside? This idea that no one is safe. We talked about this a little bit last week, but, like, not just with losing Cinta, which we'll talk about at length when we get to it, but really just watching this, knowing that, like, Cassian and Mon Mothma and...

You know, a couple, you know, Bail Organa, good to see you. Like a couple other people are going to make it to Rogue One, but it feels so unsafe for everyone else. And so knowing that we're barreling two weeks away from the end of this show existing, which means in two weeks, a lot of players are either going to get like retired to a farm like B2 or, you know,

And that makes for exciting television. Something I was talking to someone about was... And I know I bring up Better Call Saul a lot, and it's not a ringer-versus-property, but it is a really great, excellent example of a prequel. There's a character in that show, Kim Wexler. Mm-hmm. And...

We were just sort of like, where is Kim in Breaking Bad? Does Kim Wexler die? Kim Wexler lives, et cetera. And that is just where I am with Bix. I'm like, what is happening with Bix? Is she going to be okay? Are they going to figure out a way that doesn't involve killing her to like, you know, what is going to happen there? It's constantly on my mind. And then last but not least, I will say, you know, there's the idea of strange bedfellows inside of a rebellion, but there's also the idea of like,

And what Andor has always been so good at is not being able to distinguish between the bad guys and the good guys. And it's especially true here when Luthen wants the same thing that Dedra and Partagas want. Identical plans. Just identical. The exact same thing. It's worrying. Yeah.

Would you say that he's condemned to use the tools of his enemy, Jo? One might. To defeat them? You know, I'm not wearing a billowing cloak and standing on a catwalk, but if I were, I would say that. You could absolutely. You could absolutely wear a billowing cloak on a catwalk. You could wear a billowing cloak in your fucking living room. Do you know that I have a billowing cloak that Jomie got me that matches his billing cloak that we're going to wear? We have matching cloaks that we're going to wear on the next Ring of Quest that we do. Jeez.

I'm excited. Filing this one away. Time to prep a costume. Yeah, you need a cloak, man. My costume will be a bottle of whiskey and a stuffed animal. Scotch, the cat, you know? Yeah, I love that. I love that. And then comfortable wide-leg pants and a t-shirt. What are the big picture things that you want to hit before we get into deep dive? Dude, let me say this. I fucking loved these.

I loved these episodes. Like, I love this show. It's so good. I thought this arc was incredible. I will, you know, wait until the end of season two to, like, offer any sort of official power ranking of the arcs. But I agree with you. I thought this was up there with Aldani and up there with Narkina 5 from season one. I think this is one of the strongest stretches that the show has delivered. And certainly one of the richest and dense in a good way. A chewy, meaty way that will reward...

infinite rewatches. Yes. Like, going through this just a few times, seeing it for the first time without knowing what is to come. Obviously, we know what's to come in, like, Rogue One. But in the final... I can't believe you said it. It sent me to a dark place. Two weeks of the show. Christ. Good Lord. I already can't wait to, like, revisit this entire series in full. I thought these episodes were really exquisite. A lot of wonderful lines and memorable scenes. Yeah.

The Saw Gerrera. You've been saying the phrase huffing Rido as much as you possibly can. I've been texting it to you, emailing it to you. I might have sent you a voice memo. I can't even remember. I thought that was one of the best scenes in Star Wars history. Like genuinely, I thought it was incredible. I just loved it.

Oh, man. Great stuff. In terms of those big ideas and things that I'm excited to keep track of today as we go, once again, just a number of them because this is such a rich and nuanced text. I think this idea of a very top of mind for us already as we cover Last of Us, this idea of pairs, this idea of groups within groups. And when you're

Us? Us, yeah. Perhaps makes the other larger us that you are a part of feel like a them. And what happens when there is maybe a figure like, I don't know, one of our favorite characters in the history of television, Luthan, who at various times across these episodes makes...

Cassian and Bix, Vel and Cinta, even briefly Mon and Vel feel like even though he is their leader and they are a part of his squad, like he is inserting a wedge between them parallel in a briefer, shorter way with Partagast and Cyril and Dedra because they're a duo and a team and they're in cahoots on this fantastic mission and then Parti's like,

remember not to tell him everything you know so this is like a real through line across the different character sets I think also this idea of rushing we have it with Luthan and Lani we have it with Cassian and the Gorman front even just like I'm excited to talk about the distinct the idea of Aldani and Gorman is like a tale of the tape head to head with what that shows us about the

clock the rebellion is operating under in terms of how those missions unfolded. Yeah. Lindbergh, old Ben Lindbergh, he wrote a wonderful piece for TheRigger.com, what a great website, about this arc and he really liked it.

explored this idea of the clock that the show is on and that the characters are on at this point in the canon timeline. I think also just this idea of like information overload, right? It's too much to take in. Yes. Multiple. That's what she said. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Luthan and Clea.

The ISB. Yeah. Both sides feel that way. Yes. Yeah. It's just simply too much to take in. Too much to take in. Both sides can feel that way. It can just be too much sometimes to take in. And then this idea that my guy saw so memorably in parts.

revolution's not for the sane and you can hear it in such an extreme circumstance but then think of maybe where it applies elsewhere and the other characters who are navigating or confronting that and then making their way through it anyway cassian what does he think of what the the the gorman front is doing and what luthan wants them to do saw and will and everything that unfolds in that scene

Even Mon, like trying to engender support for her pursuits. She meets resistance endlessly. Every corner she turns to, Clay and Lonnie, all of it. So I love the big picture themes that you sketched out. It's just like the fact that we can, before we even start going through the episode, identify like eight to ten big ideas is just incredible. What a gift this show is. Yeah.

I watched several documentaries on the French resistance. I had a moment where when I was putting the outline together, I was like, should I add a button? Nope, Joe's got it. I definitely know Joe's French resistance. I have literally never been more certain of anything in my life. But I mean, what a cool thing for like a Star Wars show to inspire. You know, it's just like, I feel very like it's such a, it is a gift.

He's a gift. Okay, should we dive deep? Should we do it? Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay, Joe. This week, we are once again going to group by location, character set, plot line. This was like a little harder than last week because even inside of, say, a relationship like Luthen and Cassian, they belong in two different sets of characters.

The outline. We did our best. We're doing our best. We might bob and weave a bit, but we're going to try to keep it as lumped as we can. And we're going to start today with our Coruscant...

I don't know why I said it that way. Yep. Croissant. Like, it's like a croissant from a... It's the pastry Gorst walked back to his lab with. A croissant. It would be delicious. Like the cronut of croissant. Yeah. Do you like a cronut? No. Oh. Do you like a cronut? Interesting. It's not my favorite thing, but...

I've dabbled. I've dabbled with a cronut before. As you know, I'm a baked goods enthusiast, and I like to think about texture, buttery lamination, as I learned on Great British Bake Off. I don't know how to bake. Anyway, we're going to start on Coruscant with Bix Cassian.

and Gorst. And we're going to start with another dream of Dr. Gorst, but this is a different one because Bix has risen out of bed and moved forward, drawn her blaster, primed it. It's like an immersive dream, a waking nightmare. No, thank you. And it's a pass for me. I agree.

Sorry, I'm so sorry to already take us back. Because we have so far to go. Go for it. But I do need to know how you, Mallory Rubin, BBY enthusiasts, felt about how this chunk starts. Letting us know that it's 3 BBY. And then we hear the Ferex chime, right? Yeah. Which we heard at the top of the last arc. And it's just like, I love that in terms of that clock concept that you're talking about with Ben, the idea that we're using...

That to mark the time is just really dreamy to me. Yeah, I love that. It was cool also in the next episode to open with snippets of the radio calls and to get Ryloth and Corellia and these other locations that we associate with some key figure or figures in the show.

That was very fun as well. Yeah, those little details are great. I think the way that Ferex is still alive for these characters, these three key characters who we have that are left from Ferex is wonderful. Can't wait to check in with Bea. Yeah. And find out how he's carrying Ferex with him. Yeah. If we don't see Bea again, I just, let's not talk about it, but you know my take. You know my take.

Bix is in a safe house in Coruscant. This is where she and Cassian are staying. And she walks toward Gorst in this dream state. And she sees not just Gorst, but a soldier. A soldier who she and Cassian killed. Cassian killed on their mission. And I thought this was fascinating because Gorst speaks to Bix in this dream. It's like he's this virus still who is embedded inside of her that she needs to, like, sweat and burn out. And he says...

I know you wanted him to live, but Cassian said he'd seen your face. So... And the way that Gorst is positioned there over this victim with, like, the lolling head, like Bix had been in the chair, like we had seen others, Will's dad, and is in the exact place we would find him, but then Bix is also positioned above this person who she feels responsible for harming. She is directly opposed to Gorst, aiming a blaster at him. Bix is not Gorst. Gorst is the villain. Gorst is the horror who haunts her dreams. But...

There's someone else in that state who is a victim, too. I thought that was just like fascinating framing and a fascinating thing for Bic's mind to be exploring. I love that. I think that's beautiful. And I think what's also worth noting throughout this whole thing, as we go through the season where we're hopping an entire year, we have a lot of catch up that we have to do. And the way in which, you know, Bo Willman and whoever else worked on these scripts, I

did to, you know, Cinta will talk about what happened like directly, but in, in this, just right away, we understand that Cassian and Bix are now running missions together. Yes. You know, and then Cassian will say, it's been, you know, another one. It's been a while, you know, and sort of like, let us know she's been having these recurring dreams. We saw her have one like a year ago, but she's been having them this whole time. Um,

And so there are little moments like that throughout where it's just sort of like a nod to the passage of time or what happened in the last year in a way that doesn't feel like the whole thing is stopping. It's just very elegant, the way that it's sort of like sifted in. And then I think— Yeah, agreed.

What's interesting about Cassian talking to her about how long it's been that she's having these dreams is this idea, again, as we talk about the lingering impact of trauma, this idea that there is a timeline. There isn't. It's like, oh, well, in two years exactly, you'll be fine. Morse, of course, promised that it would sort of linger with her forever. But this idea that Cassian, who just wants to fix it for her, but can't.

is like, what timeline are we operating on here? How long are we going to be doing this? Right. Yeah. I think that that observation about how it obviously requires a ton of hard work, but seemingly for us effortlessly, the show allows us to feel like we inhabited the spaces that we missed. It's just like masterful. You and Chris, we were texting about this with Chris last night. I'm like struggling to think of another example of

that's done this this deftly. No. Where we are missing these huge swaths of time and like, okay, even this, right? We didn't meet that soldier. We didn't go on this mission. We didn't see this mission, but we know what happened. Yeah. But we understand everything of substance about it. And it's incredible. Okay. This is something that Beau has always done really well in all of his work is that

something is doing five different things at once. So it's letting us know what happened on the mission here, but it's not just letting us know what happened on the mission. It's letting us know Bix's state of mind. It's letting us know where Bix and Cassian are not aligned in their work for the inside of the rebellion. So yeah, it tells us where Bix is on sort of like her moral spectrum. It speaks to isolation and all kinds of things. Similarly, not to jump ahead, but like,

when Edie is talking to Cyril about him being sent to Gorman... Astonishing stuff. Just an incredible scene. So she's...

belittling him, but also telling us what has happened. You've been put on the shelf. You broke up with your girlfriend. I can't believe this happened. And meanwhile, that one Skype call is both the audio that we hear as he moves through, so we're getting to see the town as he's moving. And it's a plot device because he's doing theater on that call for whoever's listening. So it's operating on multiple levels. So many levels. It's a...

It's a cronut. You know what I mean? It's laminated. It's like everything is laminated. So many flutters in the pastry. Yeah, exactly. I love that. To that point of like establishing the different motivations even inside of a group, I thought, I mean, we have just the pure like horror of Gorst who got everything that he deserved at the end of this arc saying like, I forgot to ask his name.

Might be a little late now. I thought that was so chilling. But then he says this thing to Bix. He says, everyone has their own rebellion, right? And this idea of your own rebellion, this tracks with how we've discussed Andor the entire time, right? We talked about this a lot last week, like factions within factions, this ongoing theme. But this question of like what motivates you. Mm-hmm.

what is your primary driver, but also where is your line? Yeah. Is so central in these episodes. And I love like you're identifying early. We have that here with Bix and Cassian and then Bix and Cassian give it to us with Luthan and it builds and builds and builds and builds, right? We have it with Luthan's group and the Gorman front, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So this idea of like how, how,

How lasting can any source of unity be when everybody has their own rebellion? And then how do you balance that? How do you balance the shared pursuit of taking down the Empire with whatever your rebellion is? I think that the show's ongoing interest in that is a consistent pursuit from day one, but has maybe never been as artfully explored as in these three episodes. Can I...

Take us one, just toe dip into French resistance corner. Yeah, please.

until they were united by, yes, a massacre that happened in Burgundy, so like an atrocity, but also this idea that Germany wanted to conscript the people of France into basically labor camps. And so it was like a, it was an active discomfort that was uncomfortable enough

for all these disparate groups to find common cause and say, okay, we have to just like figure this out because this outside threat, you know, like, one would hope that some of the other atrocities would have pushed them in that direction. But oftentimes it is only until it comes to your door that, that people figure out when to move and how to move. And this is what Luther's has been saying from the start, right? We need to make it so uncomfortable for them that they,

That's what he's been trying to spark. They will do something. What did you make of the way that they discussed the physical place that they were in and what it was doing to them emotionally, psychologically? I thought this was so interesting, this idea that Bix presents that, like, it's when I relax, that's when this resurfaces. And you know how deeply real that feels? Like, you're...

with yourself and you're with your memories and you're with your fear. And that is when the trauma that has always been there, maybe really like roots its claws into you again. And like the way that that acknowledgement from Bix was paired with this pursuit of like,

basically, like, routine and, like, the mundane things. Well, let's put the window treatments up. And, hey, do you know? Does anybody else stay here? Like, if not, can we leave some stuff? Can we get some plates? Can we get some towels? There's just the, you know, again, very, like, andory. We talked about this last week with the level of, like, specific detail. Okay, we're going to make sure you understand what is in every cabinet here. Or if you don't know, it feels like you know. And, like, the fact that in Star Wars people are just talking about towels and plates. But, you know, obviously then...

Beyond that, there's this question of like,

Cassie and Abix will talk later about how this isn't what they want. This isn't where they want to be. But they can carry two truths at once and like, this isn't where they want to be. This isn't the life they want to be living. But the sense of impermanence and like the inhospitable nature of this place that they know is where you hide when someone is pursuing you is bringing all of this further to the fore in a way that feels very debilitating.

I think for someone like Cassian, who has spent so much time on the run, hiding out, doing these various things, has gone to multiple prisons at this point in his life, it's one thing. But for someone like Bix, who was so ensconced in the Ferex community, when we met that town, we understood they were all in each other's lives and they all knew each other. And then you pull her out of that, and then she goes to Mineral, which is a less...

version of that for her because of the fear that they're experiencing. But she and Will and Brasso still make a home together and they're, you know, Cass is out on missions. But this is the home unit. We're also in the community here. We're getting to know people. We've put Marva's painting on the wall. We have made a home for ourselves. And now she's isolated in a safe house. And when Cass goes on a mission that she's not invited on, she's...

left watching daytime television and eating Chinese takeout and doing a full depression. I see you, Bix. I see you, girl. I associate myself with you. But she's isolated. And this is what...

You know, as we talk about what an empire, what a fascist movement does, this is what they do is that they destroy community. They do not want you in common cause with people around you. They want to destroy your individual culture and identity, and they want to destroy your sense of community and just keep you in a fear space of isolation. Right. Absolutely. And that's where we find fics, you know? Like, even when last week in Arc One, when Kroll said, you know, this doesn't seem very...

permanent. And Bix said, we like it. Yeah. Right? Because they had built something, like you're saying. And then the, you know, later in these episodes when Bix and Cassian are talking about the space shop or the park. The bodega. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The bodega or like the park. And, you know, the idea of like, well, wait, if the craziness of the city keeps us safe, then why can't we go walk around in a place that makes me happy? And like that...

That tension, the empire preying on that and making it feel like even in the places where you have found yourself because in theory you can cultivate safety there, you feel more alone and unsure than you would anywhere else. It's just like, how could you ever settle in? And

foster any true stability from which you could then build, like, purpose. So, yeah, it's just, like, completely unmooring. And that's why as we move towards, you know, inside of this episode, these episodes, we go to, is it pronounced Dakar? Yeah, Dakar. Which will serve as the rebel base on the sequel trilogy. And we've already been to Yavin, which serves as the rebel base. This idea of, like, here's the home for the Rebellion.

Right. You know what I mean? This is what we're moving towards is like stability for this unstable, shaky, separated rebellion, which I love. Shopper base, still my fave. Sure. Of all the bases. Let's go to the space shop. Let's go to the bodega because it's time for a little home-cooked meal. And even this.

presents problems even this sparks debate they argue Bix and Cassian over which shop to go to this isn't the one Cassian thought Bix meant he wants to look in the bag before they go in she says he's like yes not this Trader Joe's not this Trader Joe's you can never get parking here

So just Los Angeles then. I can't sleep. You can't shop. The mission is dinner. I think we can handle it. And I thought this was really great because as is often the case throughout these three episodes, Cassian's, he's not always right. And there's plenty to interrogate and we will. But often his reservation is in some way validated by something that someone else is doing. So like the very lovely seeming vendor at the shop

recognizes Bix is like hey where you been I haven't seen you in a while and Cassian's like fuck people know who we are now that guy didn't rat them out but this worry that they will be recognized and imperiled is like a thing to be considering um

Did the darling little spacecraft in the cage behind the register recognize them, do you think? Also, if you are on the run from the Empire, do you think it's helpful to be less hot than Cassian and Pixar? I was going to say, it must be hard to hide when you look like Adria Arjona. She's so beautiful. No matter what. These are lovely. They're lovely.

It's like, well, yeah. Put it down. It doesn't matter. Okay. Here's what's true about the Coruscant bodega that I found out. So Helen Player, who's one of the set deck department buyers...

spent six months acquiring hundreds of items to stock the shelves of the Coruscant Bodega. I just think this is like one of the most impressive sets I've ever seen. Like it was so cool for one scene, six months of prep. This is what I'm talking about, Andor. This is what I'm talking about. It's incredible. I thought this was a great scene. And I think also inside of the way in which it is a larger collection

conversation about two dashing you know members of the rebellion it's a couple fight also totally you know like they're just like i want plates and and curtains i don't want to go to this trader joe's like it's just sort of i i just really like the domesticity that's laced into this larger part of it when cassian actually cooks in the basically revel air fryer i

She evicts us like, this is pretty good. I wrote Intergalactic Hibachi, but I like... There you go. That's it. To your point when, you know, she's like, yeah, it's better than me. And he's like, I'm not touching that. No, yeah, exactly. He's like, I'm not confirming that. That's a trap is what he said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like there, you know,

Their relationship, like the depth of their affection for each other is so crucial to what is unfolding here now. It is romantic in this case. You know, we talked about this last week, right? Is the, like, my husband is coming back. Is that real? Is that a cover story? Um,

What is clear here is that they have rekindled their former romance and they are deeply and fully devoted to each other. And the passion is so palpable throughout the episodes. She's like, I regret any moment we didn't spend together. Yeah, the kiss when he came back from the mission. I was like, have we ever seen something this passionate and passionate?

A galaxy far, far away. Wow. It's just like so deep, that kiss. You're saying you, Harrison, number one Harrison Ford. It's a little, it's a different vibe. Han and Leia? Okay, anyway. It's a different vibe. It's a different vibe. I think that. One that I cherish, but it's a different vibe. I think that the question of whether or not they're married actually is irrelevant. She calls him her husband again in the shop and it's just like they're married. Like whether or not they had a ceremony, they're married. They are each other's person. This is it.

You know, which again, I ask, what does this do to our feelings about Jyn Erso on Rogue One? I don't know. Like, we'll have to see how it all plays out, you know? Yeah. Yeah. On that idea of like the clock, as they're doing meal prep,

Bix is cleaning the blasters and notes of the tarnish has set in and Cassian's like, it's fine, you know, we needed the rest. But it did feel, even though it was a quick beat, like a contrast to so many of the other characters across the three episodes who were like, let's go. We got to move with haste. We got to move with the quickness. And Cassian, who of course is like the Gorman front, they're impatient. Too fast. They're going too fast. He's like,

It's fine to slow down. You know, so he is kind of like a counterweight to the Miss Minutes action all around them in this episode. Yeah. And then Bix broaches the soldier. The soldier in the nightmare. What will Cassian tell Luthan? This was like a fascinating conversation across a couple scenes here. Cassian says basically at first,

We won. Luthen cares about results. Like, we don't need to worry about any of it. He's very cold and clear in the calculus here about the soldier. You put on the uniform, you take your chances, which is obviously not where Bix is currently. Now, at the end of the third episode of this arc, she will charge out of the Imperial complex that she is in and shoot the guard without hesitation. But right here with this kid's face in her dream, that's not where she is. And...

Cassian channels a little bit of Kathleen, a little bit of the last of us. Kids die every day. They die all the time. He says, not everybody knows it yet, but it's happening. Meaning the war. We're at war. People die. They die all the time. He doesn't say that part.

I wonder if he knew, Bix says. And Cassian replies, well, he does now. And I thought that was one of the most chilling things I had ever heard. And you brought up this question last week of something for us to be keeping in mind across the entire season is where is Cassian on the journey to where we find him in Rogue One in terms of the moral complexity? Now, Cassian...

Takes pains to say here, like, Imperial soldier, this is a foe. So it's not the same thing as Tivik, but it is still interesting to think about this question of, like, when is any action justified through the lens of who you're trying to save? Whether that's a person you love, yourself, the pursuit of a crucial mission, all of it. So just felt like an interesting kind of marker on that timeline. I love thinking about that. Something that Diego Luna said about, you know, when he gets to...

play act on Gorman, act as a designer, is that we really want to think about how much he has learned from Luthan in the intervening years and how much closer he's getting to Luthan. So when we see him put on finery and this sort of demeanor, that's a Luthan move. And so this sort of like, well, he does now...

that callousness, that's a Luthan influence as well. Absolutely. How would you compare Cassian's Varian Sky slicked back hair to the Luthan Gallery wig? I have a wig-specific question coming for you, actually, so you feel free to save it if you want. We did get emails about Luthan's little wig. Vulture wrote a whole piece about his little wig. Yeah.

The slick back hair is wonderful. Sensational stuff. Simply great. Absolutely sensational stuff. So they sit to eat. This is where Bix asks about the walk the next day. And this sparks a larger conversation about Cassian's instinct and impulse to protect. Right?

Right? And how that is manifesting. Cassian is... I thought this was, again, a great, like, scenes, dot, dot, dot, for a marriage conversation, to your point, because Cassian is like, I don't... I do not understand what the problem is. Like, I want you to be safe. I don't want to lose you again. Why is that wrong? Why is that bad? And Bix says, it's warping things. You killed that guy, not because we're at war, but because he saw my face. Because I was in peril. Period. That was what led you to make the decision that you made. And...

Cassian says, what's the difference? And this is like so Joel coded as we cover The Last of Us. You're not watching The Last of Us. Let me tell you. There's a lot of chocolate in the peanut butter here today. God. Like Bix above all, right? And one of the things we've loved talking about in Last of Us, which is also interesting to discuss here, is like it doesn't necessarily mean the impulse is wrong. If the impulse is to like protect people,

nurture, ensure someone's security and safety because you love them and you want them to be okay, that can be noble. That can be good. But where is the tipping point when the other person feels like, where is my agency in this? This is not what I want. This isn't how I want it. Like, I want your trust. I want you to believe that I'm okay. I want to feel empowered. If it is a war, which you say it is,

to have an active hand in shaping it and guiding it. I want to win. And so that's where we build over these episodes to Bix being out there with Cassian at the end, enacting her vengeance directly. On the one hand, I agree with that. On the other hand, I think what's really important for Bix here is that

Right. Right.

Is Cassian thinking I'm not ready for a mission? Like, what the fuck is happening? And he's like, no, no, no. So I think what she just wants above other things is to be a partner. And so when they not only go on the mission together at the end of this arc for them, but she's in there alone, you know? And he's not coddling her on that mission. And he's just sort of like, this is all you, baby. Go for it. You know, I think that's...

that's something that is very important for her. Yeah, like the way that that revenge was simultaneously hers alone and then also shared was, I thought, really cool. What did you think of invoking Marva and the sister here? Just the fact that the sister is mentioned again, but also like in general kind of calling upon these formative influences for and wounds in Cassian's life that maybe have a bearing on how he thinks about

the risk of harm befalling somebody close to him. Yeah. Again, she's just like, I'm not an old woman in a chair and I'm not a literal child that you, like a little tiny child you once protected. I'm your partner. Like, treat me as such. I thought it was really good. Yeah. I also thought like, let's put respect on Marva's name. She rallied Farris. You're right.

I apologize. I can't speak to what the sister achieved. I just always think about Marva's recliner, which just looked very comfortable. It really did. Did you think that this mention of the sister was just kind of one last wink? Like, we didn't forget that there was a sister, but you're never going to learn anything more? Or do you think we're going to actually learn anything at this point? I don't know. We got an email about that last week. Like, do we think Cass is trying to find his sister? Marva at the end of last season is like, forget about it. Forget it. It's not a thing. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

And I feel like we'll never learn. And that that's part of the point. It's like, sometimes you don't get all the answers, but I don't know. We'll find out. Luthan. Luthan is very present in this relationship. Yeah. And when he asks Cassian to take the Gorman mission, which we will talk about all of that in the Gorman section when we get there, Cassian's like, what about Bex? And Luthan says, no, not this time. You got to go alone.

Bix will be fine. You don't know that. And we get this little beautiful parting before Luthen comes to visit Bix once Cassian is gone with like the... Okay, so the passionate kissing is great. The finger dancing on the hands. I was wondering if this is like a Phyrexian tradition because they were making parallel patterns. This is not just like we're...

gently caressing each other's hands. It's like, we're doing a ritual of sorts. And I was wondering if it was a Pharyx ritual, maybe even like, do you do this when you hand fast, when you get married on Pharyx? Is this like a wedding about, not that they were like getting married, but like, this is just a sort of like a devoted, I don't know. It felt very culturally specific and it felt very, this is us,

This is our culture that we're bringing with us elsewhere, which I really loved. I love that. And hands were so central in Ferrix, like the wall of gloves for the workers and obviously like the banging of the klaxon or the ringing of the bells as a way to signal their fellows in the community. And, you know, even this, like both of them are mechanics working with their hands. There was like such not only an intimacy, but just like a sweetness and a tenderness to this. I love that.

I love that question from you of like, could this connect to their shared history and this common place that they miss and left behind? They lost. Beautiful. The score was beautiful here too. Really, really gorgeous. Dude, when the score cranked in when it was time to huff gas.

Whoa. Mention number two. How many times do you talk about Huff and Ryan before we get there? You have to guess right now. Five more times. We'll see. Oh, that seems low. I'm taking the over. Okay. Five more? So seven? No way. Okay. Over. Taking the over. Well, I guess it's a polluted sample because I'm in control of it. Yeah, yeah. When Cassian leaves.

We see Bix alone looking out that window out at this cold city, a dark, rainy night. And we see her open a little file of blue liquid, a little dropper, and take this sedative that she and Luthan will discuss. So we are like remaining in a very serious and very heavy place in general. And like with Bix in particular, this is not like spooks.

spice action adventure like space drug stuff this is like this is you want to buy some dust sticks right yeah this is this is really heavy and it closes out the episode and you know adriana like when she when she takes the drops and she's just sort of like

you know, zones out looking out the window. That is like a dark place to leave. Very much so. Yeah. The later scene when watching the Good Morning Coruscant, which you mentioned, that was just like a fully like strung out kind of visual, like really intense. Let's talk about this Luthen scene. Luthen come in when Cassian is gone. Are you saying those are the only circumstances under which you would watch Good Morning Coruscant? That had the, to me, that really felt like the TV stayed on.

Oh, yeah. You know? Like, you finished watching, you were watching, and then some other program kicked in. I don't know if Bix is a mafia and toffee loyalist. Hard to say. That was a kind of funny way for us to get the Senate. That's what I'm saying. In fact,

It was like three levels because it came out of the Edie. Like you hear it and you think this is something Edie's watching because we already know that Edie is like watching Fox News all the time. And so like, is this something that Edie's watching? No, it's Bix who's watching it. So we learned something about Bix, which is like, oh my God, she's watching Good Morning Coruscant. And then meanwhile, we're learning about the parties. Edie dinners, just wait till Perrin jumps in. Yeah.

Just wait till Perrin chimes in on the scheduling. Luthien's here, and the moment where... We'll get a moment later when Cassian comes back. Were you scared? Were you so scared after what happened with Tay last arc? I was like, is Luthien going to just

kill Bix right now? There was that. There was the fear of what Luthan might do to Bix. There was also us briefly experiencing Bix's terror. Like, what does it mean if Luthan is knocking at the door? Is he here to tell me Cassian is dead? And then later when Cassian gets home and knocks and nobody answers at first, like, they were really ratcheting up our fear over whether one of them might at some point return and find the other one

gone. I was worried. Yeah, because we know that obviously Andor has plot armor. We know he survives, but what if Luthan lied to her and say Cassian's dead and gets her to leave and then they never see each other again or something like that? You know what I mean? Yeah, it'd be horrible. Actually, a fascinating thing to keep in mind as we break down this scene, because one of the things that struck me was that when Bix asks what

what you already mentioned when she was like, wait, did he like say, what's he saying? Like, I'm good. I'm ready. Luthen could have been like, yeah, actually.

He said you weren't good, but that's not what he does. Like, he very deliberately takes a subtler... He charts a subtler course in this conversation where, like, it doesn't seem like he is seeking to actively spark dissension in the ranks. Like, he knows that if he says to Bix, like, yeah, Cassian's out there talking shit, that's not going to, like, pass the smell test, probably, even though she is worried about how he's viewing her right now. But this, like, this particular path...

still leads to this massive argument that they have later and like the way that Luthan works and then the thing ultimately that he says to Cassian which is basically like you both failed my test just like diabolical I loved it he was like disappointing right yeah yeah it's the second time today you've disappointed me like just incredible stuff you're not little tools that I like you're you're an

You're a tight unit and I have to figure out how to make that work. You actually both think that the other person's more important than the cause. That is not what I was hoping for at this point. Yeah. Wild stuff. They kind of like make small talk about this safe house. You know, Luthan's like, yeah, I've been here before. Oh, the Knights in Coruscant. The hiding. And Bix says, never ends, does it? All the hiding. And Luthan replies, it will.

We'll bring them down or die trying. What else is there? Now, we are familiar with this position of Luthan's. We know this is his worldview at this point, right? This is the, like, famous speech to Lani, what do I sacrifice everything? But it was, I thought, still helpful to, like, have the idea directly reinforced in this context.

storyline of these episodes because it's the question that is divided. It's the wedge between Cassian and Luthan. They're aligned in so many ways, but like what else is there? Well, Cassian would say there is something else for him right now. It's Bix. Vel and Cinta would say there is something else actually. And like for Cinta, she had to work to that place of recognition. So this is not something that Luthan's lieutenants share.

with him at this point in the story, which feels very notable and like a real source of tension across these episodes. And the thing about Cass, the thing that's interesting about Cassian is that he's never going to be that guy. Yeah, we meet him, um...

in a callous place at the beginning of Rogue One, but the partnership that he forms with Jyn and then the larger crew as they go, like, yes, the cause is important and it's about the cause and he supports her because she radicalizes herself to the cause and stuff like that. But like, he's a guy, he's a lover, he's a carer, you know what I mean? Like, that's who Cassianander will always be. So, yeah.

Yeah, like this decision that he makes when they're staring down at her father on the, and he's in sniper position, right? Like, so like this, it's always going to remain a test for him. He'll always have to decide what he thinks about this and what he's ready to sacrifice or not. I love that part of it. What did you make of this moment when Luthan finds the drugs? And Bix says, basically, I know what you just found. She's like,

She's like, give me. Give it back, dude. You were here for a mission and something changed your mind. Yeah. He was like sharp as always, right? Yes. Haven't lost your eye. Yeah, yeah. I love that. She's a very good agent. Like she is. She's an asset that he can use. And that's why he's like, I need you healthy. He needs her healthy not because he cares about her, but because he can use her. And I think that is – I think that's really important. Yeah.

This, him coming here, because he's, he sends Cassian his mission, Cassian, and he says, Bix will be fine. And Cassian says, you don't know that. And that's just alarm bells for him. He's like, where are my weaknesses always? Tay, don't worry, Sinta dumped him out the speeder last year. So that's fine. Turned it right over. Yeah, but like...

But is Bix a weakness that I need to worry about? So let me go scope it out. Oh, you've got these drugs. And he's like, he's got personal experience, right? That was so interesting. Right? That they help with the dreams and then the dreams go back and they're even worse. So we know that he has done things. I mean, we already knew this, but like he has done things that have haunted him and he has dabbled in various narcotics or whatever attempts to, and now he's just like, I just live in hell. That's just, that's just it for me. Mine's a sunless space. Yeah. Yeah.

People fail, that's our curse. It's something that we said last week. We got an interesting email from our listener, Emma. Before I read her email, I will just say that like... Actually, I think since Rogue One, I have been thinking about... And now we're sort of back further in the race. I've been thinking of this as like a relay race. A theme that came up a lot in season one that people like to notice because it connects to Rogue One is this idea of the climb, right? K2SO says that...

as he's dying to Cassian in Rogue One. And then Nemec says it in season one of Andor. And then we hear it on Arkina 5, et cetera, this idea of the climb. And the climb is almost like this race of you're handing off something to someone. And in Rogue One, it's these literal plans to Leia who will then go help radicalize Luke and Han and stuff like that. But it's like,

From Cassian to Jyn to Leia to Luke to Han, et cetera, et cetera, this idea of like,

A relay race. So what Emma wrote was, I've been thinking a lot about Luthan's proclamation. People fail, that's our curse. It comes from a dark and sunless mind at a very cynical moment, but I didn't take from it that Luthan is hopeless or that he doesn't believe in people fighting in his rebellion. Rather the opposite, I think that he's saying the rebellion is a team sport, a relay race in which the players become greater than the sum of their parts.

Yes, we all fall short of our ideals. Humans fail. But a few small acts of bravery or decency is enough to move the cause forward. The hope is that someone else will be there to pick up the baton and run the next leg. This show is so careful to build heroes who aren't all that heroic and villains who are far more complex than pure evil. You can't pin all your hopes on some mythical savior, unless it's Luke, who always does the right thing. However, if everyone digs deep and finds a little bit of heroism, then you've really got something. Yeah.

It's funny because I was talking to someone last week about, because I can't stop talking about Andor, about taking the lessons of Andor and what does it mean in our current situation in terms of like, let's say some people in this country are not enjoying how the country is being run right now, these here United States. But what are we doing about it?

we're just going to work and doing our thing and thinking like I'm ready to do something when someone tells me what we're supposed to do but we haven't figured out what we're supposed to do or what our tipping point is into doing something and I was like well that's all we need a catalyst a tipping point and then we need a mythical boy with a magic sword oh no um so yeah anyway on

On the big strung out watching Good Morning Coruscant front, this is a wild thing that I have not confirmed, confirmed, confirmed. But people who know more about Star Wars blasters than I do have said that the blaster that Bix is cradling while drugged out is the same one Cassian uses to shoot Krennic in the back to save Jyn at the end of Rogue One. It's built around a specific gun. And so this person recognized it. And I'm just like, that's fun, but...

This is a very Chacobian gun. It's Bix's gun that he uses to save Jin for a time. For probably five more minutes. Love that. You know, who's... Again, we don't know why they're not together and Bix isn't there, but, like, the idea of carrying a part of Bix with him if...

If she is no longer around, which will be pretty painful to confront if that is what happens. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting email from Emma. I mean, obviously we agree that the reason the show is so rewarding to think about and discuss is because all of the characters are so complex. And this has been the thing about Luthan from the jump. Obviously he makes it active text in his episode 10 speech, but we were having such a...

such an interesting time thinking about his actions and his pursuits, even before he said all of it out loud. And like, I think that the relay race is a really interesting, it's a really interesting like idea to invoke because like,

I think what is also true about Luthen, you mentioned Tay. We have clearly this... I mean, everything that he's doing here with Bix, like, okay, I want you to be healthy, but also I am here to see if you're a liability now. Oh, yeah. Can you, like, just actually say that to Cassian in the scene we're going to discuss next, like, or two scenes from now? You know, he's like, you're going to have to make the call. Obviously, in season one, when he was hunting Cassian before he, you know, fully brought him in, it was like, are you a liability? We know what he does. So...

Is it a relay race? Yes, definitely. But also, if you can't finish your leg of the relay race to get to the next person, Luthan is unwavering in being the one who will make that call. And he is often...

pointing out that other characters are not prepared to do that in the way that he is. So just like, what an incredible thing to consistently watch and watch our characters confront as well. In a sports metaphor space, right? He would, if you had a minor injury, he's like, we're not going to deal with rehab. We're pulling you from the team and we're replacing you with someone like a fresh runner. Yeah. Or we're going to put you out there and ruin the rest of your career. Give me what you have while you have it. Like either. Lonnie. Yeah, exactly. God. Worried about Lonnie. I am.

Lonnie was really mixing it up with a lot of dangerous people this episode. I loved watching Lonnie work in these episodes. It was really good. Really, really good. I have to imagine he will be killed soon, but I don't know that. I have not watched ahead, but I am worried. That's not like similar to Clea and like a couple other characters. Like Lonnie and Clea and like Will and like all these characters who were...

tertiary background characters here for an episode or two are our main characters here in this season and I love that which is like honestly shocking because we have so we have three episodes for a fucking year yeah and yet there's somehow time for Lonnie time for Lonnie

interactions with six different characters. It's just incredible. But I think it's also like that. It's like the MCU approach of like, we need a scientist. Who can we pull from somewhere to play that role? Like, we need someone to help Clay in this heist. Let's use Lonnie. Lonnie from season one. He was great. What a ginger. Let's bring him back. You know, it's great stuff. Perfect. Perfect. Cassian returns home and he does not think that the update that he receives is perfect.

Unlike us, he didn't get to watch Lonnie, so he has some notes here. This is where we get this incredible kiss and then also some talk about how they're going to bring Varian Skye into the bedroom one night.

Very pretty. You're a better guy. Bring him home some night. I mean, again, the show is just incredibly horny this season. This is only your second favorite horny moment of the episode. They're such a clear winner. Everyone else is playing for second place. It's Cyril and Dantra. It definitely is. Oh my God. Joe.

Yes. She asks if the mission was dangerous. He's like, the only thing that scared me was Luthan. And she's like, hey, tell me about it. That guy stopped by. Real record scratch for Cassian here. He's enraged, honestly. I thought this was great. Cassian had so many different things to do in these episodes. I loved all of it. But this was like...

such a specifically calibrated kind of anger toward another person, right? You waited till I left and then you did this thing behind my back and then I was with you on the Fondor and you didn't tell me. I love specifically when he said, there were a couple of great things because Bix has this moment where she's like,

It happened. And he's like, yeah, I know. I'm not saying it didn't. Right. Like, I know. I know it's real. Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. The thing I'm saying is like, what is that? He knows you need a rest. But then also he says he has to know we're having this conversation.

He doesn't do anything without a reason. And that's true. Like, in order for this dynamic between Cassian and Luthen to work, it can't just be that Luthen is always, like, assessing, studying, manipulating, seeking to deploy something about what he understands about the other people. Cassian has to understand Luthen, too? That and also what I... Actually, my favorite win for Cassian inside these episodes, and I hope this, like... I know you were a little like, Cassian's just...

sitting with a bunch of losers for the first three episodes. Yeah. It's a lot to do. It's so, yes, this was more my speed. But him being so right. With respect to your favorite characters, the Maya. Thank you. They will live forever in my heart. Um,

He's right, like, every time. Him being right about Gorman. Like, him being so dead on right about Gorman. They weren't ready, and the Imperial spy was playing them. Yeah. He was so right. And so he needs to be good at this. And we also see him multiple times inside of this episode teaching people. Which he also did with the Maya Pay dipshits last week. That was so striking, even when they were holding him prisoner. He's like...

put a tarp out to get the water, set a perimeter, et cetera. So when Enzo's just like playing spy and he's like, listen, dumbass, this is not how we do this. Tell your people to stop following me. It's causing distraction, all this other stuff. Like it's really good because when we meet him in Rogue One, he is a leader.

So how did Cassian, the self-interested thief, become a leader? And we're watching him do it. And particularly because Luthien actually expresses that idea in their argument, right? Like, you're thinking like a thief. I'm thinking like a soldier. Think like a leader. Yeah.

Well, he is. He actually is behaving like a leader. Part of leadership is making sure other people are ready for what awaits. I do have one note, though, for Cassie and Andor. I'm with Luthien. Going to the gallery is deranged. Oh, yeah.

Well, especially since he just called out Enza for her sloppiness and stuff like that. He's like, the gore going so fast. This is sloppy. This is sloppy behavior. And then he's flying off the handle. This is so reckless. But of course, that's like, ultimately, it's human. Everyone's flawed. I kind of wish Clay had been there. She would have murdered him. She would have. But let me ask you this. If Clay had been there, would we have gotten to ask the most important question that Andor has posed to date? Which is?

Does Luthan sleep in the wig? The doorbell rings, he comes out, the wig is on. It's the middle of the night. Joanna.

It is time for an improv to watch TM with Joanna Robinson. Here's a true fact. When he's at the gallery, does he sleep in the wig? If he's going to sleep in the wig, which he shouldn't do, but if he does, he should sleep in a hairnet as well. Something protective. Maybe a silk bonnet. I don't know. He needs a protective layer between himself. A, I hope he's sleeping on fine Gorman twill, like the finest slippiest of sheets, but also like he needs, he needs some protective layers on that, on that wig. Yeah.

This was incredible stuff. This is where some of the lines we've already talked about today are uttered. This is the second time today you let me down because this is, of course, after Cassian says to him, like, I don't think we should do the Gorman thing. You had to know she would tell me. I thought it would be interesting if she didn't, but now you've both disappointed me. In addition to this just being, like, top tier Andor writing, incredible, and the performances, as usual, are sensational. Yeah.

just fascinating from a Luthan character perspective because he's like not ducking from it at all. He's just like, yeah, this is what I'm doing. Yeah. Like, and I'm going to say it with conviction. Thought that was incredible. And then this is where he invokes again the cause. He kind of just like mocks Cassian to his face. Kill me or

in calling back to the season one finale you're in oh but gorman looks too painful bix is too vulnerable and cassian says i give you everything to which luthan mister what have i sacrificed everything everything i mean the most famous scene in andor history right replies this is everything

just like a delicious stitching together of the entire tapestry of the show for these characters and beyond. I thought this was great. And I really loved like Cassian saying with this, just like, you know, lingering humanity. Yeah. We are not droids, Luthen and Luthen replying. We are not who we were when we started. I think, Oh my God. Uh,

I think we are not droids, Luthan, on the back of like Mon talking to Vel last week about, you know, joy inside of rebellion versus what Cinta said to Vel last season about like, hey, the cause is it. It's not us. It's the cause. We take what's left. Yeah, we take what's left. So I think that that and then her sort of reversal of that in her

A final moment with Vel is an interesting question. It's an interesting question to ask. Like, what are you allowed to have inside of something this monumental? Yeah. And like, if you don't, if your answer is nothing, then how do you keep finding the strength to fight? This is just like a fascinating thing that the show is exploring. I mean, I don't know if you've heard this. It's not right, but you can't pour from an empty vessel.

It's true. It's true. My last note on this is that Cassian, who has shared a life with Bea, should speak more kindly of droids and their emotional depths. But, you know, I wouldn't be me if I didn't say it. Sure. So, we're all thinking it. Oh, man. Luthan says, like, if Bix doesn't pull it together, you're going to have to decide at what point it becomes too large a problem. And then Cassian basically just volleys the challenge right back to him. He's like, that's going to be up to you. And...

if you want to keep me around, you have to fix this. And then he just, like, he just states one of the themes that we've been discussing. It would just be easier if I was alone, huh? Like, they clock it. They see what Luthan believes and is trying to do. Luthan's like, don't make me call Cinta. Don't make me call the Uber. When Mon later was like, I have an offer for Vel, and Luthan's like, uh, do you need to? Like, it's a...

Why? Wild stuff. And so is your read here that Luthen responds to this interaction with Cassian by saying... With the Gorsd mission. Yeah. The light is back on. Here you go. Gorsd and his pastries. And here's how this is cronuted throughout the three episodes here.

It is lunchtime. It won't be lunchtime when it posts, but we should tell people. I'm not hungry for a cronut. I don't like them, but I just think the lamination is too good of an excuse. So Luthan is asking for updates from Lani from the jump, right? Personally checking in on Bix, seeing what Gorse has done to her, knowing the impact of Gorse, not just from Bix, but from

about this, you know, thing that the Empire wants to do with Gorse. Lonnie handing the news to him that the Gorse program was being expanded. And then the beacon is lit, but we don't see the follow-up assignment that we get the payoff. And I just, you know, the beacons are lit. Gondor calls for aid, but like,

Some people, I saw some people saying like this came out of nowhere. And I'm like, no, I think they laid the breadcrumb trail for this. And here we are. And the question is, is this action? Now, I'm not, this is not, this attempt to heal some trauma is not available to most people. But like, is this a healing moment for Bix? Or is this...

more to come, you know? Like, I don't know that shooting gorse roots out the disease that, you know, she's grappling with. I agree. I think that this is a show where... And a story and just a nature of storytelling and, like, an exploration of human behavior and relationships and feelings where, like...

It doesn't seem likely to me that in Andor this would just not surface for Bix again. I would be pretty surprised by that. And hopefully it feels healing to take action and to be, like you said earlier, engaged in active partnership with Cassian. But I don't think this would be the last time that Bix thought about Gorse and what she had been through. That would not strike me as true to the spirit of the show.

I did think it was pretty sick when the sound cut out as it had before. And we're like, we know what that fucker's hearing. But the other thing that we have to confront, of course, is that we hear in the ISB sequences, like you said, he's too valuable for just the ISB. So every other department wants him. He's going to be a program. So this torture tech is not...

Well, the question is, like, how many files did he leave behind? Has he trained anyone yet? You know, like, what's the deck look like? There's at least, I mean, yeah, right. Is it uploaded to the cloud? Did he leave good instructions or, like, bad IKEA level instructions? Like, what are we doing with the machines here? But they blow up the machines. Like, what if all the recordings are there? I don't know.

Are they using Google Drive? It's tough to say. I don't know. Our listener, David, did point out that Bix is wearing a classic David Targaryen murder cloak here. And we love that for her. We do. We love a murder cloak here on the House of R. Speaking of cloaks, let's go to Gorman. The... They don't like cloaks. They like...

trench coats and berets. Berets, yes. This is the key battleground in these three episodes for everything that is unfolding between the rebellion and the empire. We have like the most time is spent on Gorman and with people who are even elsewhere discussing Gorman. This was really central and really, really, really great. And our first episode

our first introduction to Gorman comes through Cyril. And like a lot of what we've already discussed, but a couple other little observations, just like the way that he is once again, we talked about this last week, we got the great email about Imperial members of the Empire who were like looking at themselves in the mirror and that narcissism. So we got like, we have mirror tracker update of Cyril, you know, looking at his own reflection, fixing his hair, and then of course clocking the spy behind him. Great stuff. I really loved, these were great episodes for Gorman.

just tradecraft and like, you know, really luxuriating in and or as a spy story. And I loved the little detail of Cyril just using a piece of thread to put on the bottom of his door to see if somebody breached it. Cause it's just so like, it's just so simple and tactile and like such a high tech world. I loved it. That and also just like the fact that it's a thread and we're on this planet that is known for its twill. And then we've got these spiders and these webs. There's this moment when, when,

Cyril goes to the town hall meeting and Enza and Sam are... He's like a fly caught in their web, but they're actually caught in his web. It's all very cool and juicy on Gorman. I just want to shout out...

You know, we always talk about production design on Andor. I think this is the best shit they've ever done is this central plaza in Gorman. The fact that the design is this, like, art nouveau, you know, like...

inter-war sort of European look. It's funny, when we got the establishing shot of Gorman on the water, I thought, I was like, and then I heard the mandolin on the score. I was like, are we going to Italy? And then it was like, oh, we're in France. We're in France. We're in space France, yeah. But they have talked about how both the French resistance and the Italian resistance was like, I mean, obviously...

were in France, but like that the Italian resistance, that they did base the look on like Turin and Milan and a lot of these other like beautiful, they just wanted like this beautiful classical European look so that later when we hear like on Gorman of all places, like what is its like place in the galaxy? What does it represent? Not just as this like sub

supply for Krennic for the Death Star, but also just sort of ideologically, what does it mean for Gorma to fall? If Krennic is able to carry out his plan and decimate the planet, which is what he's wanting to do, what does that mean? And we get peace and prosperity, Jo. Something that...

Something that Tony Gilroy said in an interview that I absolutely love is that he said that Palpatine's tunic is Gorman Twill. That, you know, this stuff is just everywhere in the galaxy. As Edie says, if you could afford it, why wouldn't you?

Why wouldn't you buy it? It's the best of the best. Great stuff. I really loved on the design front the hotel that we'll see with Cassie. And like I thought the green marble and like the... That was just like stunning. The opulence. And the round structure of the building, the B&S building. And like...

how it's all one set that they built. So like the lobby of the hotel and the lobby of the building, sort of like similar to the Red Keep on House of the Dragon. It's just like a set you can walk through. And so it just like feels like, you know, and we love a long walk. We do. Cassian will take a long Coruscant walk to, you know, on his way to pick up his papers to go to Gorman. And then Cyril's taking a long walk through here and we see pigeons and we see table

in the plaza where you can play space chess. It's just like... Nothing more Parisian than a little cafe table with some goodies on it. It's just incredible. And the last thing I'll say, I will want to come back to the Gore language. I'll talk about that a little bit later. But the fact that they created a language here...

The detail inside of the idea of this is an industry planet, the twill, when they say things like Owebery, you know what I mean? They have a national anthem that they created. All this stuff is just so distinctive, even more so than I think

It's as good as... It's better than Aldani, I would say, in terms of, like, I really understand what this place is. Yeah, for sure. On Ferris level, I think, in terms of, like, here's the specificity of this culture that we are threatening with this looming, brutalist structure that's casting shade over the plaza here. It's just incredible. Yeah, over the monument. Yeah. To the fallen. It's all so good. I think...

I love all that. I think the other visual that popped into my mind on the symbolic front is when Cassian is meeting with Ryland Slater and they walk past. They have in their Tuileries, they have the little spider encased in the glass dome. It's one of the coolest things I've ever seen in my life. It was gorgeous and it's this like...

almost like a trophy of their excellence, right? An embodiment of the beauty and majesty and achievement of this place. And also it's like, right, they're the ones who are trapped actually.

actually like they're the ones who are encased in this in this in this thunderdome like I thought that was really great and like I really on the practical set front and walking through like you sketched out beautifully earlier the way that this FaceTime that we hear between Cyril and Edie plays on top of Cyril like taking us through the plaza what is life like here what is his path to work oh he's gonna have to like scan his ID with these guards who he then is gonna have to dupe later all of it but also just like

the way that then when he walks back home, the transports are in the background and we're like, right, this is going to be the path for this mission later. Like all of it in a really, I mean, it's three long episodes, but that's a really short span of time to give us such a deep sense of place when the front is plotting the mission with Val and Cinta, we hear just literally like how many families live in this particular place? Who might be home? Who might come out? Are the rooftops clear? It's an incredible level of specificity

That then allows you to, like, fill in, you know, when, like, a CGI, like, they're filling a CGI stadium or something and they, like, actually design just, you know, one row or group of people and then they, like, copy and paste them everywhere. It's, like, a trick that our minds are able to do when we watch Andor. We have enough specific detail and enough fully pixelated rendered faces to be like, I know what this whole place is like. And that's just, that's incredible. Really incredible. I also thought that the serial office was, like,

Real TVA. Oh, yeah. Coded in a way that I quite enjoyed on the production front. Yeah. Great. You bring up the dome around the spider. I think the spherical shapes that we see everywhere inside of this is really interesting. When we see Cyril looking at himself in the mirror, he's catching someone watching him. Yes. Right? Across the way. His office, which is so...

The way that there's like a catwalk to his office and that's the desk where everyone sits below him. And then his office is curved with glass everywhere. So it's this like panopticon sort of situation. And the whole square, the whole plaza is a panopticon sort of like the hotels there. The office is here. We're all watching each other. The, the,

windows are shaped like eyes. Like it's just, you're constantly being surveillance inside of surveillance plans and times inside of plans inside of this space. So it is both like beautiful. And then it's,

gives you chills. It just gives you this sort of looming, unnamed surveillance feeling as you're wandering through it. Also, just like... Sorry, last thing. The smallest detail, Cyril's on his way to work, and this puttering speeder, like turquoise blue speeder goes by him, and it's backfiring, sort of rattling along. Comparing that to... I was thinking about the stupid shiny Vespas from Boba Fett. You know, I was just like...

I was like, this rattling, backfiring speeder is like what I want in this world. I actually feel like there would be shiny Vespas on Gorman. But yeah, they'd have some nice rides. But I hear you. I thought you were going to say on the tiny detail front, the like hairless dog. Did you catch that guy? The hairless dog? The little hairless dog howling. He was great. Would you like a fun fact about him? Please. I found this out just for you.

The art department created a collar for the dog and added the name Elvis to it in Dixie and one of the Gorman written languages. So that dog is Elvis. Sensational stuff. I mean, he left an impression on me. He really did. That little brief little howl we got. On that circular imagery front...

It's also, this is like a very basic thing to say at the Star Wars, but it does just make you think of the Death Star. And like, you know, we know what they're mining that Kalkite for. And it's hard not to think of like the way that the, I mean, I think of all the very striking Death Star imagery moments across Star Wars. And there are obviously myriad. One of the most memorable is the,

circular shape emerging like a giant moon in the sky in Rogue One. So, like, that was very, I thought, inescapable. It's no moon. It's just a little trumpet of doom. It's no moon. On the Cyril Eadie front, this, like, staged call, because Cyril knows he's being watched, did you have a favorite? This was just, as is always the case with these two, first word to the last word.

perfection did you have a favorite moment i will throw out for you when ed is running through what you outlined before like you found a woman actually willing to make a life with you and you just walk away a respectable career relationship finally all of the cast aside throw away to for what a field office on gorman cyril replying i'm assuming you won't be visiting

It was just one of the best things I've ever heard. It was just incredible. I think the only thing I can possibly come up with to match it is, in charge of what? Counting spiders? Very good as well. Very good as well. I love her. That is good as what she'll say later, that she's going to name her spider Cyril. And he's like, great. That's an interesting choice. Under the hair lamp. Yeah, great. Okay.

was giving very I don't know if you're a fan of Terry Gilliam's Brazil but the mother character in that is like famously there's like this famous scene where she's getting plastic surgery it's very demented Catherine Hellman and I was just like it's this grotesque sort of like beauty I mean anyway Edie I love you she's a legend always delivers every time she would like Cyril to file one thing away which is don't become too much of an individual

That's the thing about Cyril that I think is so interesting. We got an email about this, I think, last week that I didn't read out, but

This idea of Cyril Karn inside of the Imperial machine is so interesting when he is someone who will, like, tailor his collar a little higher that, like, does want to stand out, that does want to be noticed by Partagas. So, like, he doesn't want to assimilate into the machine the way that, like, you know, it's Hirt who's like, I'm not after glory. Deirdre, think about it. I'm here. I'm after glory. I'm after more Cali coolers. God damn it. Think about it.

But like, and I love this idea of Cyril Karn, who's like, pleased as punch, obviously, to be sent on this mission. He's having the time of his fucking life. Will I ruin everything if I say this is the best day of my life? Incredible. Iconic. But sending Cyril Karn, a lover of tailoring to the Twill planet. Yeah. And like, watching him- Loves a custom pipe on a suit, that guy. Watching him-

sort of lovingly placed those spiders on the decorative shelves of his... Yeah. He is enjoying Gorman. Loves life here. He loves being here. So that actually gets to a question I wanted to ask you, because I think a large part of what will fuel this question is what you are identifying, which is, like, the truth inside of the lie is always helpful, and it actually is easy for Cyril to, like, pretend, like, Gorman is the place for him, because in many ways, maybe not politically, but...

in many ways it is it's very clear right away what is actually happening in terms of the game that is afoot yeah is there was there any part of you watching this in any of the scenes that we see with cyril and the gorman front were you allowed a little part of your brain and your heart and your soul to wonder can cyril be turned could this guy jump ship yeah because there was like there were a

of moments where it's like, there's good acting and there's no in the game. And then there is like, I thought, you know, especially because- He's learning the language. The motion, the gestures. When he said the thing he would take with him was the depth of feeling, I was like,

but he means that. And like... As soon as he puts on a beret, I'm just sort of like, I think he's just quite susceptible to the allures of the gore, of Gorman. Yeah. I had a real seesaw journey with this across these episodes because in that part of Gastine that you're alluding to where he's like, this is just the fucking best moment of my life. You know, the true believer comes out many a time throughout these episodes as well. But...

I don't know, like when Rylance was saying to him when they meet after the, when they have the private meeting after the larger meeting, he's like, you know, do you understand why people would be upset about the shadow of an imperial complex over the monument for our dead? And the way that Cyril said, like, yes. It's like, is there a part of him that meant? There's good in him. I can feel it. You can fix him. You can fix Benjamin Poindexter. And you can fix Cyril.

I don't think I... I think Cyril is beyond my reach. I think so, too. It's fun to dilute ourselves every so often, but yeah, I think so, too. Let's talk about the Gorman Front recruiting this guy. Yeah. We heard about the Gorman Front. They were one of the many groups, one of the many rebel factions that...

saw rattled off to Luthan in that memorable scene in season one that we talked about last week. Joe, would you like to, what would you like to spend time on here? Would you like to talk more a little about, since we hear a lot of the language here, about the French Resistance influences in the language? Or would you just like to spend the rest of the pod talking about Rylance listening back to the tape and saying, of Edie, the mother is terrified. Yeah.

Which is maybe my favorite moment in the history of television. Is this what will unify the rebellion? Everyone joining Common Cause against Edie? That's dadishing stuff. Yeah, the gore language, which is, you know, something that they created for the show. I was, like, looking up to see...

If it was our guy, David, who does all the languages in Game of Thrones. But it's not. It's a woman named Marina Tindal created the language. And then they hired all French-speaking actors. And they taught them this language. And they got so proficient in it that they could improvise in this fake language that they created, which I think is so cool. That's even wilder than growing all the rye. That's unbelievable. I can't. Like, every week I'm like, how? Yeah.

And Marion Dupre, who is a French woman, also helped with this. And I think it's astounding. Because to my ear, I was like, for a second, I was like, is this French? I was like, no. I was like, it has all the, yeah, the phonetics of French. But I was like, I can understand some French. And I was like, I'm not picking up a single word. So this is not French. But in terms of like the French resistance as something to...

follow here it's interesting i've been hearing a lot of people talk about like the french revolution or les miserables like different revolutions but they're very specifically going for the french resistance and i think the way in which the french resistance in world war ii is best reflected from my shallow tour that i've taken through a couple different documentaries is um you know germany occupies france but lies to them and tells them that um

Oh, no, you're still France, though. You're still France. We're just here. We've taken over Paris, but you can go to Vichy. There's a lot of hotels there set up. The Nazis love a hotel. Set up in the hotels in Vichy and run your government from there. And...

And we'll respect it. And when they talk inside of the show about, like, this is a violation of the Imperial Charter, they're just, like, ignoring the Imperial Charter. Or when the senator from Gorman is like, I can't chase against the emperor. I can't help you, Mon. I gotta keep my head down. We just gotta keep our head down. Right. I'm telling my citizens that constantly. I can't violate that trust. This is the, you know...

the cooperation um that you saw from the vichy government the french government with the occupying force of the nazis that so then you had to have these homegrown french resistance movements operating in the shadows so much spycraft um started in the city so started in a place like this and then sort of spread out into the more rural areas and i just think that like

I think this is just like a fascinating period in history. I've always been kind of interested in it. And it's a fascinating concept to insert inside of what does it mean to rebel? Well, let's look at this very specific test case and what went on there. Yeah.

But, like, down to, like, the conversation that Krennic has, my terrorist is your rebel sort of thing. Like, that exact language. You know, they were called terrorists, like, all this sort of stuff. I just think that it's...

this illusion of independence. Like we still have a Senate. We're, we're in three BBY and there's still a Senate. This illusion of independence, uh, is so key to this exact tipping point moment inside of a rebellion. Um, I thought the moment where Mon is like listening to the oath, the oath keeper, we're saying the pledge at the Senate and then can't, can't bring herself anymore to parrot the words was fascinating. Um,

I don't have documentaries to recommend to people because I didn't write them down. So I'm so sorry. But I will say, obviously, as Chris pointed out to us in our group chat, the actor who's playing Rylance is an actor that was in Inglourious Basterds, a great film that deals with the French resistance.

The Battle of Algiers is an incredible classic film that deals with the French resistance. There was a recent Ben Mendelsohn show on Apple Plus that I did watch called The New Look where he played Christian Dior. And it was about how Christian Dior navigated the Nazi occupation and used the money that he got basically designing dresses for the Nazi wives to fund the

the resistance in one way or another. Maisie Williams is also in that and John Malkin. It's great. It's a great show that nobody watched because it's Apple and sometimes those shows just don't seem to exist. As you know. Yeah. So it's a fascinating time and it's really exciting to watch them engage with it inside of our Star Wars show. Yeah. This is like all that was that was thank you.

For taking us to Resistance Corner. Wonderful stuff, as always. And we get to see, again, a lot of different layers because we are with the smaller group of the front, but also we go to this larger meeting. We see how other people in this community are...

expressing themselves and what they are pursuing and that there is, again, not full alignment, of course. But the front has ID'd Cyril as the perfect target. He is this conflicted inside man. Let's win him to our cause. And Sam invites him to the meeting with a wrapper around a candy inside of the spider. Just an incredible detail for how their past information Cyril later will put the

floppy disk with the the transport uh information on it right into that case uh pretending like he's buying another spider for ed just incredible stuff all around there i love that when you saw how they were spelling sam uh did you feel like you're back in back in thrones of course yeah there's an extra m there for no reason guys absolutely no reason absolutely no reason but i loved it um

Cyril has to go back to the office and kind of pull a little, like, that man is playing Galaga on the guards because they're just watching pad racing. And it's like, well, you could go ahead for me. No, okay, yeah, go ahead. Takes the data pad, sneaks into a safe room. I still thought this was risky, but obviously he knows the office is bugged. He's assuming the device is safe. Communicates to Dedra back on Coruscant. So we're like, holy shit, we're seeing how they're operating in cahoots with each other. Thrilling stuff. He can't wait. He's like, I'm ready to talk to Pardee. Pardee.

She's like, we're going to need a little more. Slow down. Again, the rushing, right? When is it time to move? When is it not? And so he attends the meeting and we get to hear a number. When he says they're following me, who else could be following me? And she pauses. Yeah. Do you think that means that she's, I mean, she says later, I had my people follow you on Coruscant, like when he's back on Coruscant, but do you think she has people following him on Gorman?

Probably. Probably. Keeping eyes everywhere all the time, I have to assume. I do wonder how Cyril, knowing that he's being listened to and watched all the time, has impacted his private time in his apartment. It occurred to me. You know, something I thought about. So how are you feeling the evenings? Okay. Okay.

Something to, something to noodle on later. Uh, he attends the meeting, Joe. And before he meets Rylance, we get to hear as Cyril is, uh, entering the crowd, a number of different people speak. We hear one gentleman talk about how for the first time ever, his clients, they are just considering not opening the hives, all of the different barriers that are making this impossible. Uh,

We get to hear from a woman who basically says, like, they promised. They promised that they would not do this thing in this place, the monument to the fallen, the Tarkin Massacre, which we will talk about more later. And then your guy, Lizanne. Lizanne? Lizanne? Lizanne?

They'll make a prison of Palmo before they're done. Mark my words. Now, this is Andor, and so it is impossible, I think, impossible not to think of Narkeena 5 and what we watched Cassian go through.

At the prison, when somebody says something like that? What I also love about him, because obviously he will be in the scuffle with Sam at the end of the episode, he's complaining about the convoys and the horns blowing. He's just trying to sleep at night. So it's like... Too many noises and too much dust. Yeah, this is seeded into why he will be sort of like rabble-rousing in the street at the end of three, you know, six. Wonderful stuff. We have a meeting. Sam ends up

It's time to introduce Cyril to Rylance, Enzo's father. And I loved the beginning of this exchange when he says, when Rylance says that he spotted Cyril out in the crowd and Cyril says, I stand out that much? And Rylance said, no, that's what's interesting. And again, that idea that like, could this be a place where he belonged? It's just like fascinating as an opening note. Yeah.

We're going to talk more about the Tarkin Massacre when we get to the conversation between Cassian and the hotel bellhop. But it is mentioned here, Rylance tells Cyril, 16 years ago, 500 killed. You can imagine how upset this would make people if they were putting an imperial military facility over the Monument to the Fallen.

And then he just shares his worries more broadly. This is what we think is going on with this complex. We want peace and prosperity. Are you writing a report? Are you a spy? If you are, maybe make that the headline. We want peace and prosperity. And they are also moved when he returns that customary farewell, both the language and the gesture, because of course it signals to them that he is interested in being one of them. It's time to debug in office.

Joanna, who's here? It's Maester Orwell. So excited. Wonderful stuff. We got this great email from Regan, who's a consistent great emailer, who says, In the realm, each house can only support one Maester at a time, right? Now that Grand Maester Orwell and Maester Hand of the Queen Qyburn are both Imperials serving House Palpatine, Sigil, Black Cog, and a White Field, words...

Unlimited power. I think old Sheev is playing a dangerous game. By the old gods and the new, he better get right or else he may be headed for tragedy soon. But then again, even if he is killed by Darth Vader at the end of Return of the Jedi, well, what is dead may never die, but rises again. Truly. Somehow. Somehow.

Palpatine returned. Yeah, Maester Orwell. Great emails here. Great. I feel like Palpatine would just have the soundbite ready of Pycelle saying, you know, not even a Maester. This is for Guypern to borrow the bingism. This is a new...

new fun tradition for me of taking a photo of a screener and sending you and saying hey orwell's here because i did it with slow horses and then i did it with andor i'm like where where isn't he gonna show we have it's not even our only fun thrones cameo of these episodes i mean mary master is here astonishing stuff i love her voice same me too great stuff uh

Cyril earns even more sympathy with the front because of this debugging of the office, which was, of course, we can deduce the intention. He's really good at theater. He's fucking great at it. Yeah. Theater kid, you think? Yes. Yeah? When he does the thing where he's like, apparently we're bugging our own offices and kicks a phone off a desk, I was just like...

This is a great touch, Sarah. I love the way he's like, I'm either, I've been to have condoned it or put it in myself. Yeah. It's a bruise for the eye. Yeah. Really incredible. And the fact that kind of in parallel with this, they have found the sealed, difficult to discover and unlock Morlano 1 files. Yeah.

And learned, like, again, they're reinforcing their hypothesis. It's confirmation bias at this point, right? He's our guy. Dishonorably discharged? Scandal on Ferrix? Disgraced? Surely he's got it all from behind. Like, really appreciates some fine fabric and tailoring. Is a little kinky. Yeah, he's our guy. Put a pin in that. That's something Cyril has said before. Put a pin in that. Um...

He does, in fact, get them after saying, like, yeah, they do what they want. It's the ISB. He gets them what they need. This will be part of what he and Dedra talk about with Pardigas. Like, you got to keep the information coming and it's got to be accurate, right? Again, they're not trying to stop this. They're trying to ensure that it happens. Yeah, Dedra's like, they need to get a taste of what it's like to win. Yes. Which was...

Something new is happening at Cox. Now the price of your Cox internet and mobile plan won't go up for three years and Wi-Fi equipment is included. So no frustrating price changes, just a lot more of what you want. Like a pizza with extra pineapple.

Yikes. Okay, let's stick with something everyone wants. No price changes on your plan, guaranteed. Learn more at Cox.com slash value. Must have at least 500 megabits per second speeds and Cox Unlimited mobile taxes and fees excluded from price guarantee. Mobile data speeds reduced after 20 gigs usage per month.

Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer.

The Kentucky Derby's almost here, and you can get in on all the Derby Day action with FanDuel. That's right, you can bet the big race without leaving the Sportsbook app. So what are you waiting for? Download the app and bet America's number one race with America's number one Sportsbook app right now. 21 plus and reside in Arizona. Offer valid on first real money wager of 10 cents or more. Verified FD racing account required. Bonus issued in non-withdrawable racing site credit that expires seven days after issuance. Max refund $500. Restrictions apply. See terms at racing.fanduel.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342.

So disturbing. We're going to take a brief serial pause to bring Varian Skye into the Gorman tea rooms and hotels. What did you make just of in terms of the logistics of this assignment for Cassian? The fact that Luthan is just outright like, you know, I need you there. I need you to assess Kara Rylance. I can't go. Too visible. I'm not sure about the group because

At this point, we have seen the scene between Luthan and Lani. So we know that Luthan is, like, genuinely stumped by what Lani has told him about Dedra running Gorman. He's like, what is the endgame on Gorman? What is going on with Gorman? So he's, like, trying to get to the bottom of this. But he's not, first of all, he's not telling Cassian any of that. Well, Lani's saying, like, three people know this at all. Lani just, like, being...

the perfect asset here. The way that he gets this top key, key, key information. Really made those post-meeting lunches useful. Yeah, work.

You owe me a favor? Oh, give me lunch and also give me this kiki information that I will then use to fuck something up. Sure. And like the first time in three months that he's got anything for him. And if it's this, it's this massive thing. But like Luthan's afraid to go because he's right to be afraid that it would be too visible. He could be spotted. They could figure out who Axis is because of this. But like they're looking for Andor too. And in fact, when Dedra is talking to Hirt later about the Axis desk, she doesn't.

She talks about Andor. She says Andor must be, yeah. Yeah. So what did, in terms of just how we're talking more broadly about like Luthen and how he thinks about his people, did this give you a like, again, everyone is disposable to Luthen kind of feeling or not really? Is it more like a vote of confidence in Cassian that he can execute the mission without being caught? I don't think he thinks of Cassian as disposable. Like he really cherishes Cassian as an asset. Yeah.

What I will say is... There are people to send there who Dedra isn't looking for. And he knows Dedra's running Gormit. Does he know Dedra's looking for Cassian? I think what's interesting about Dedra saying Andor is like, I'm always wondering if like,

if that's a favor for Cyril you know what I mean like Cyril's the one who's obsessed with Andor she's the one who's obsessed with Luthen you know what I mean so for her to be like Andor must be found I was like what do you mean Andor must be found Luthen must be found but he was part of the ISB pursuit also yeah but like just a smaller fish sure I don't know

Interesting stuff. The fact that these like Varian Sky and Cyril scenes are intercut, we get the kind of like not only the mutual spycraft, but they're just logistically handy. Cyril and Cassian are not on Gorman at the same time, planet swap. So that was, that was handy, certainly. Yeah.

Some fun little insights into how Lucid's people are communicating when Cassian is booking passage to Gorman. We get the, like, where the episode gets its names, right? I have friends everywhere. We'll hear that later between Dylan, Dylan, and Vel. So that was kind of fun. Like, I'm curious by nature. I loved all that. And then he shows up and he arrives at the hotel and we get to really see how Cassian, like, works A-

An asset. Yeah, an asset for information, like that one glimpse of his eyes when he's standing at the window waiting to see if he will come back over and offer more. Into his web. Yeah, into the web. And this is like...

So this is a really interesting... We talk here about the Tarkin Massacre and the history on Gorman of the Tarkin Massacre. This is where... This is what we alluded to at the top of the pod, but we're going to talk very briefly here about what we learn here and also then how it connects to other knowledge we have across the canon. So if you don't want to hear this, you can hit fast forward like three times. But Joe, what did we learn here? This is really cool. Okay, so...

The Tarkin Massacre, which we had already heard mentioned by Rylance, is something that occurred 15, 16 years ago. There is a very key thing that happens on Gorman that has not happened yet.

And anyone who has gone elsewhere in the Star Wars canon, specifically, let's say Rebels, knows that this key moment has to happen for a number of other things to go into place. And we know that Tony Gilroy has said Gorman was like something we knew we wanted to and had to grapple with. So like Gorman is important. Something is yet to come. Tarkin Massacre was this instance from Legends where

decanonized from legends. And now made official. The Gorman Massacre Institute by Tarkin

is he landed his ship on a bunch of people. That is so just dropped his ship on a bunch of people. And so what Tony Gilroy has done is said, hey, they kind of rewrote an incident on Gorman to be something else in canon and they decanonized this thing that Tarkin did. But he's like, what if we make it both true? What if we say this thing happened here 15, 16 years ago and then something else

might happen here. This moment where Tarkin dropped his ship on all these people is what earned him his admiralcy, according to legends. Like, that is sick behavior. But yeah, we're reconciling legends and canon inside of the story. Part of an ongoing quest. Elegantly. Yes, very much so. There's the beautiful monument in the middle of the plaza, but also...

Told by Rylance, yes, but told by this bellhop as this cronuted story of a personal loss of a boy talking about his father. And you and I both wrote in our notes that Cassian is someone who lost his father in the town square, Rick's road to the empire, has to be thinking about that. But also I was wondering...

And later, Wilman is asked multiple times who taught him how to use the machinery. And he could be protecting something inside of the rebellion. Oh, I definitely think it was his father. It's his father. Yeah, for sure. And so he's like, he refuses to talk about his father, who we lost at the, you know, in season one of Andor. And so this just idea of like, you know, boys and their fathers that they lost and like how that radicalized them and stuff like that. So like, you know.

I hope welcome to the resistance bellhop. I don't know. But like, you know, I know. I love that moment where he was like, my wife thinks it's insane that we don't leave. And like, I haven't gone very far. Have I? And it's like, well, you, you still have a chance, but also you don't have to go far to fight for, to challenge the people who did that to you. You can do it right here. And he just refuses to leave his home. Like, exactly. And I love that. Yeah. Really incredible scene. Um,

The tea shop sequence happens next, which we sort of already discussed when Enza comes in and she's just like, hmm, I'm here. Feeling herself. Like the peacock in and Cassian's like, pause. I'm spying and he's like, girl. Yeah. I thought this was so good. I am who you want me to be, but that's just you getting lucky. People die rushing, which is...

is true and will be true again, but also like it is an urgent moment and sometimes you need to move quickly. But I thought that that was just great. And I loved how when he meets Rylance at the Tuileries the next day, Rylance is basically like, I heard about what happened. We have a lot to learn. And you have this moment of thinking that he is just going to be like studying at Cassian's knee. And there is gratitude for what he imparted there. But that goes, it turns so quickly into Rylance being like,

you're not the revolutionary I thought you were, which is really incredible. I think it's... I thought it was so fascinating inside of this scene, which was so good, where we have Enza's there and Sam's there and et cetera, is...

And Cassian, both in the cafe scene and in the scene, is slipping in and out of his personas, which is really fun. Yeah. But when Ryland says, 19 generations. Yeah. And we're one of the youngest in Parlo. Like, that is just,

an incredible line to give us a sense of the history of the place. Yeah, yeah. Right, the depth of the thing that is in peril here. My God. When Sam, I think it's Sam, right? Sam asks, like, if Cassian has ever done something like that and he's, like, stolen something. Aldani, sure, you wrote in the notes Aldani, but I'm just like, Cassian is a thief. A thief, sure, yeah. Like, he's just a thief.

But like specifically like a convoy sure but like... Stopping an imperial convoy and take something of value from them. But it's just sort of like stolen something. Yeah, I've stolen a few things in my life. Quite a few things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Quite a few things. Let me run through the list of all the people I owed credits to back in the day and all the trouble I was in. Cassian like needs to...

see more and learn more before he is prepared to offer an assessment. They take him out at night. They show him the path. They show him the tunnels. Like, this is how we're going to do this. And when he meets with Rylance, he says, I have more questions. I have more questions than I have recommendations. And like, I don't think you should do this. And I love specifically the thing that he said, bringing that history as a thief to it,

It's not the stealing that's hard, right? It's the getting away. And he says, but you won't be doing that. You'll be living at the scene of the crime worse than that. You're planning to advertise what you've done. And I did appreciate like really casting a light

on the boldness of that intention, but also the danger of it then, right? To do this in your home, a place you can't leave, to do it in a way that demands attention and notice what are you inviting when you do it. And of course, he's also providing the feedback about the risk of, and he's right, using an imperial spy, right? Like this is what they do? Yeah, he's right. I love when he says...

When he says, you'll be here, you're going to do the crime, then you're going to stay at the scene of the crime. I was wondering if he was thinking about Marva and this idea that, like, you know, as far as we know, Marva died of natural causes. You know what I mean? Like, she was old. She was ailing and stuff like that. But, like, Marva being like, I'm going to fight here. Yeah. Cassian's like, let's go. Right. And she's like, I'm going to fight here. And, like, when he says the getting away...

Like, logistically, there's, like, you know, a surface read of that. But there's also just sort of, like, he... Like, Ferex, like, did he get away? Have they gotten away from Ferex? They haven't. You know what I mean? Like, he's still there in some senses. Yeah. Yeah. What does it mean to make your home a battleground? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, boy. Not much of a revolutionary, are you? I mean, it stings. Stuff to hear. But also, like, the fact that the reason somebody is saying that to him is because Cassian values...

Like he wants them to live. He wants them to be okay. And he thinks what they're doing is not sane and not sensible, which of course then connects to Saw's line about how revolution isn't for the sane. So all of these threads are entwined, much like the web that our little spider is weaving. And it's time for both sides to ready for this transport theft. And it's time for our listeners to ready for the most important scene in all of Star Wars history. Yeah.

And that is when Cyril Karn comes home. Yeah. You get a little cheek, a little demure cheek kiss. But I will say. A full head to toe, first of all. Yes. Checking her out. And she checks him out. She looks great. Like black silk. She looks great. Incredible trouser situation. Her jaw like clenches. Yes.

When he gives her the little cheek kiss. They have an hour. One hour. Just one hour. Turn out the lights. I love his read of Can't Believe You Had Me Followed. It's like flirty. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, he's like basically doing an eyebrow wiggle. Turn out the lights. He's so horned up that she had him followed. I...

Sometimes we like to save it all for the pod. This is something we have already discussed with each other at length. And we were both like, okay, the lights go out.

We were both waiting for some sound effects. I was waiting for like some slurping or something and I feel deprived that we didn't get it. I forgot that you said that. What I do remember you saying is like, or the sound of her, the heel of her high heel shoe grinding into his thigh. He's into it.

You just tell. Our listener, Sean, and I hope it's Sean Fennessey, but it's not, but I wish it were, says, do you think Cyril is the freak?

Dedra is the freak or that they both match each other's freak. I think they match each other's freak. And we clocked this in season one. I have to say we were in Karn corner from the start. But when she interrogated him the first time and like she got off on interrogating him and he got off on being interrogated by her. Yeah. And then when he like showed up at the office. Yeah. Yeah.

And he's like, thanks for the promotion. I know you want to fuck me. Anyway. I am expecting some...

really good fanfic off of this moment. Oh my god, I'm going to look it up right now. Hold on. Please do. Send me some links. Keep talking. I'm just going to see if this exists. Go ahead. Send me some links. Fresh off fucking Dedra, Cyril goes to visit his mom, who among us, and this is where he gives her the spider. We should know really quickly. Yeah. We don't like fascists or spades Nazis. It is important that we say that every time we talk about Dedra and Cyril. Thank you for remembering to do it this time. I want to make sure.

that we say that. I thought you were going to say we should note that when Cyril asked Deirdre if he thought they were really watching his mom's play, she's like, no, but it's not worth it for something that small. I just love that. Like, missing mom? Come on. Not worth it. I just need you to know that the first... Oh, okay. Is there a robust library? Well, I just searched Cyril Karn and the first time they came up

Is it a fanfic titled My Dad, the Emperor? And it's all about how Sheev Palpatine is Cyril's... So it's an Edie Karn, Sheev Palpatine fanfic. Not what I'm looking for. These are not the droids I'm looking for. Who's Uncle Harlow in that scenario, then? Here we go. Cyril Karn and Dead Romero. That's what I'm looking for. What's the count? How many stories do we have waiting for us here? 106. Okay. It's not enough, but it's better than zero. One is called Turn Out the Lights.

Yes! The internet! Maybe it wasn't a mistake. There we go. What is called Lights Out? Yeah, here we go. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, we both have to force ourselves to still go see Thunderbolts tonight, but let's also carve out time for some reading. What is called Who Holds Your Leash? Oh, my God. Whoa! Okay, all right. All right, here we go. Okay, text me this. I will. Oh, my God. You know,

The entire sequence with the gifting of the spider and saying she's going to name it Cyril and Cyril saying, interesting choice. They just have no notes. It's wonderful as always. But it is time to head to the Partagas meeting. And Dedra is like, she knows how to interact with a person like this in a setting like this. And she says, you know, skeptically confident, right? Measured. Cyril's like, I'm ready to take this further. And I want my accomplishments to be known.

I'm sure this is happening. They're planning already. They're experienced but very eager, he says, to which Pardicast replies, how often those attributes align. Tough stuff for my guy, Cyril Karn. The eyebrow that he cocks at Dedra at that is just like... Wonderful. Very good. Absolutely wonderful. But Cyril's undeterred. You know, he says, the plan to bait Gorman could begin here. Now, this is like...

just an important little cementing of the question of how much Cyril knows and doesn't. Obviously, as he states here and as is clear from his behavior, he knows that they are sparking rebel activity deliberately. But as we will hear later in a private conversation between Partagast and Dedra,

He can't know all of it and he doesn't know all of it. So presumably what that refers to is the Kalkite, like what they are seeking to get from the planet and why they are there specifically, what the larger Stardust aspect is. Trying to expose outside help in the rebellion inside of Gorman. So he's like trying to bait and capture...

let's say a Cassian Andor, a Luthen. Like that's what he wanted to do. And Dedra and Pardagaz are like, nope, we're going to destroy an entire planet. That's our plan. Yeah. We've got some. And he's like, but the twill. Some other agenda items we're working on in tandem. We're multitaskers. This is what is required for success in the Empire. Will no one think of the piping? Oh man. You know, Cyril's always thinking of the piping. Truly. Always. Is that what your fanfic is going to be called?

Yeah. Yes. Cheryl's always thinking of the piping. Probably. Great. Probably. What did you read in when he said, if I say this is the greatest day of my life, does it spoil everything? Deirdre's, it's good to see you happy reply. Genuine. It felt genuine to me. I agree. Well, here's the thing. Going back to that yeety dinner. Yeah.

from last week, like, do we believe that Deirdre was actually defending Cyril inside of that scene? I do, but also she's the one who in that scene arranged a weekly Zoom call that they then used to bait the rebels. And so like, how long was Deirdre planning? I'm going to send my boyfriend to Gorman to, you know, inside of a dangerous place to bait, you know, rebel activity. And,

And we're going to use his calls with his mom that they're going to be eavesdropping on and all this sort of stuff like that. I do believe she cares about him. Same. But I also believe she's always honest. He's a tool. Yeah. He's a tool in her toolbox. So to then that point into what Partagas reminds her of, and she says, like, I remind myself constantly, sir.

are you anticipating that there will be a moment where that tension becomes so keen for Deirdre that she has to decide, well, which matters more to me, right? Where they have their version of exactly like the big Cassian who's, do I care about the us more than the larger us? Right. If Cyril, if she has to sacrifice Cyril to preserve some sort of plot or intention, like will the affection that we agree is genuine ever matter more than the mission or

I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Speaking of the mission, it's time to send in Vel and Cinta because Luthan picks up Cassian. I also was like, Luthan is going to Port Stiergard in the Fondor to pick up Cassian? Everyone's acting crazy. He's like, it's too dangerous for me to go there, but also I'm going to go pick you up. Wild. It did really take me back to see them on the Fondor together, though. It brought us to a lot of great season one moments. Cassian shares this assessment. Don't get involved.

Luthen says, I've already heard from the front. They've chimed in. They're very prompt, the Gormans. What they are is impatient. They started too late. Now they're rushing. There's that idea again. And Cassian's like, no one's going to care about this. Like, everybody knows about this. The Empire's going to care. And Luthen's like, yeah, exactly. Like, a Gorman in play is a triumph. He calls it a triumph. And this is where they have that exchange about thinking like a leader. And the...

we've already cited between how Luthan is thinking and behaving and how Dedra is thinking and behaving, it of course connects back to how Luthan talked about Aldani, but also just what is happening for both of them with Gorman. And if it goes up in flames, Cassian asks, it will burn very brightly. A spark? That will light, you know, I mean like...

I burn my decency for someone else's future. I'm damned for what I do. These are the things that we have heard this character say. I'll burn Gormin if it means, you know, we can be free. Yeah. Luthen and Clea have one of their delightful, like, pretending to talk about an artifact conversations. He's like, this isn't the one. Send in the other. So Vel and Cinta, they're here and they meet at the tea shop. We know from last arc, they haven't been in touch.

Cinta's here, her hair is shorter, her energy is muted. The way they're framed in that window, like on two sides, it's sort of like a yin-yang sort of design in the window. And I love, too, because the tea shop on Ferex, you know, part of Cinta's cover. Yeah, and like, you know, this sight of the, no, we take what's left. Like, actually, this is not going to be the thing I prioritize. Real heartbreak for Val. This is where we learn, Jo, that Cinta had an accident. Mm-hmm. It led to some reflection. Mm-hmm.

I would like you to luxuriate in the experience of reading a few of the many emails that the bad baby sent about what this accident might be. Rachel said, now forever my headcanon, Tay was dumped like a bag of trash out of the convertible speeder in a convenient canyon. Thank you. Thank you. Bridget said, my money on Sinta's injury is that she forgot to buckle her seatbelt when she flipped the hover car upside down to kill Tay Colma.

And Haley wrote, my house of our addled brain explained this mysterious injury with when she was killing take home by flipping the flying car upside down, her seatbelt malfunctioned and she also fell out of the car. Like literally, it is not the only thing I can imagine would have caused her injury. And I blame y'all for that. What's it like to really feel your impact on the world? I feel like I have purpose.

It's rare to get to see the difference that you've made. In such a clear way. Canonically, Cinta dumped Tay upside down on the speeder and then fell out. And now she has to wear one glove. I'm sorry. Bad shit's about to happen to Cinta, which is not funny, but this is... We enjoy our levity where we can. We laugh through the pain. Okay. Um...

And Vell and Cinta, before they have a private moment, they meet with the front. They're like, we're here to assess. If we don't like it, we're going to bounce. I thought this was fascinating because Sam, very chatty, you know, a lot of bravado. And they shut him down. Don't. Don't what? Don't talk. Don't think. Do as you're told. If you can't manage that, you don't belong here. And...

So it's very interesting to me because, again, to be clear, like, they are right. He will ignore what they say. He will bring the blaster. It will lead to Cinta's death. They are, as Cassian rightly said, not ready. Like, all of that is true. And the fact that these people are so inexperienced and have never done something like this is part of why they are issuing this counsel. All of that I acknowledge. Right.

But the Star Wars watching part of my brain was like, I don't know. Usually when we hear good soldiers follow orders, it's from the Empire. Like, that's the whole crosshair plot in Bad Batch across multiple seasons, like interrogating that idea. So I just thought this was really interesting, especially because Cassian is challenging.

his orders. I think also for a character like Sam, who brings a blaster anyway, right? There's this idea inside, again, factions inside of factions. There's this interesting divide inside of this little resistance group that

that feels generational right that you have rylance who says shit like many of us believe the emperor has no idea what's happening on his behalf shadow government okay it's not palpy's fault

Whereas like the rest of the group are these like young kids, which is like often what you find, you know, if you look at something like say nothing, which is about the, the troubles in Ireland and stuff like that, this idea of like rebellion resistance revolution is like this sexy movement inside of a youth movement. And that's very French resistance, of course. Yeah. Won't you? That's a great call. Yeah.

I liked, too, that Vel noted that they have to move quickly because intelligence gets stale, which provides among the many reasons that they have to be operating against the clock, including the confirmation of a question you asked last week, which is, like, is the next arc going to just be, like, a few days in a row as well? And it seems maybe that, I don't know, maybe it will be how the next couple are, too. So do you feel like this is three days? Is this three days, do you think? I think it's just a few days. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Just like a couple, like a week. Yeah, like Luthan's like, you were there for two days. And then Vel gets in and is like, we're doing it tomorrow. Yeah. So, yeah, a few days. Not a swarm of days, not a horde of days.

It continues to be one of my favorites. A throng of days. Not even a throng of days. And I was thinking just of the little detail from the first arc of Cassidy. This wasn't the ship I was trained to fly. How quickly does the intel move? And so how quickly do they feel like they have to keep pace with the information that they have? And is that actually a good reason to move so speedily and not let caution lead you to hit the pause button? It's not like there's a clear right or wrong answer. I thought the other thing was like,

The Aldani arc is the second arc of season one. So this Gorman arc is in the same place as Aldani. And so, of course, for many reasons, like the comparison is invited. I thought that this was one of the most interesting contrasts that helps us in that broader sense to the Cronut layering really feel the distinction of just a couple years where we are in the rebellion and where we are in the brink of the war really unfurling and full. Like,

They were on Aldani preparing for that for months.

they come in, they make an assessment, and they go the next day. That is just a radical distinction in pursuit and circumstance from where they were in Aldani. And so as rebellion heats up, accelerates, we talked last week about this idea of Luthan as an accelerant, something that you pour on something to make it go faster and faster and faster, catch fire. And then we're talking about Saw as fuel. Yeah. What could go wrong? Ready? Huff and gas! Okay. So,

So I think that like, I think as the pace picks up, then it makes sense for someone like Cinta, who not only had this injury, had this really tough year all, you know, since we last saw her, etc. But also like,

Being a revolutionary right now, to your point, is different from her working in a tea shop on Ferrix for like, I don't know, a couple months, however long she was there. She was embedded there for a long time, a month, let's say. You know, so yeah, it's a different, so like the pace is different. So then what you, the peace and joy and comfort that you can find in the spaces that you can find it become more important, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a great point. Speaking of Sinto,

Cinta and Vel reconnect before the mission. Cinta apologizes for hurting Vel. She says, I don't know who I am sometimes. I was really struck by this. She says, you make yourself change. I've never done that. Because...

When they were not totally aligned in season one on what was more important, the relationship or the cause, one of the things that Cinta kind of like hurled back at Val was, you know, go be the rich girl, right? This idea that she could move between...

that she could be a chameleon and change her skin because Cinta was like, I don't, I'm always this. This is all there is for me. And here for Cinta to recognize that as like a sacrifice that Vel made and maybe an advantage that she has to be able to like

calibrate who she is based on the needs of the moment. I just thought that was really fascinating in terms of the history between them and what was on their minds here. Can I just tell you, as a lover of cinema, television, storytelling, as soon as this happened, I was like, one of them is dying before the episode's over. And we'll talk about the inside of like a trope, what that means, but also just sort of like

I don't know. It was just one of those scenes. A lot of this, as we mentioned, the crow-nutty layers of this show, of Bo Willman's writing, exquisite speeches, you're going to talk about Huffing Rideau eventually with Saw, etc. All of that is incredible. This feels actually just kind of cliche and inelegant to me. Totally. Because... Do you want to talk about the trope aspect? Yeah, let's do it all. Okay, so then...

Sinta dies because Sam is a dumbass. And, you know, Vel eulogizes her. We'll get to that beautiful eulogy in a second. But I would say the clear vast majority of emails we got this week was something that was already on my mind. As soon as I watched this on a screener, I texted a TV writer friend of ours who had already watched it as well. And I was like,

They just ran headlong into this trope for no reason. It did not have to go down this way. So let me explain the trope really quickly, which is called Bury Your Gays, which is G-A-Y-S, which is a troubling pattern we've seen again and again in television and film, wherein a queer couple who have gone through a lot of torment romantically, sexually, whatever, reconcile, and all

almost immediately after one of them is killed usually this is two queer women um more than anything else it happened on buffy the eventual fire slayer happens on the 100 happens like all over the place and um has happened so often that i'm just like is no one talking to each other about there are no tv writers talking to each other about this yeah so to to run headlong into this yeah

is disappointing to me because I don't mind, which is not to say gay characters can't die. Of course they can, which is not to say in a show where we're about to, I'm sure, watch a bunch of characters that we care about die. This is what Tony Gilroy said in an interview on TV Line. He was like, hey, man, people die. It's war. Yes, absolutely. Right.

to not have Cinta for most of the season and to have their reconciliation come so close. Like if they reconciled at the beginning of the season and we spent time with them or we spent just a bit more time with Cinta. So like her story was something more than just like told in a scene and then she dies like in the next scene. It's just disappointingly, among being like really disappointing for people who are forced

hungry, thirsty for queer representation inside of their Star Wars. Yeah, and very invested in this relationship as a result of that. Yeah. That is terrible and disappointing. And then for someone who just doesn't like cliches, it's terrible and disappointing. I'm just sort of like... They could have... It was so easy for them to not do it textbook barrier gaze cliche, you know? And so it has...

on a couple different levels. And so this is just something that I bumped up against. And you and Chris and I were talking about this idea of like, are we missing anything in boiling down a five-season plan to two seasons of television to do these year gaps? And perhaps in something like this, perhaps if we had more time to luxuriate ourselves

in either 4BBY or 3BBY with Cinta and Belle, then we wouldn't have these sort of smacked up next to each other and it wouldn't feel so plain, I think. Yeah, yeah. And I think their relationship was such a highlight of season one. Yeah. And...

you know, I think there was real like longing to be back with them and, and to, to be back inside of their relationship and not only what they mean to each other, but how they navigate the way that their relationship and their, uh,

in the cause are things that they can hold in tandem. And like, you know, even here, they talk about that, right? Like we have to talk to Luthan about that. But I think that, yeah, I mean, there are, you know, we've lost a number of characters in Andor dating back to season one and already this season. That's certainly true. But I agree that

to have like a one moment with Cinta in the first arc. Obviously, Cinta is discussed, you know, in absentia elsewhere, but we hear about Cinta basically in one conversation. We see Cinta once. That's not a lot of time. It just isn't. We were just talking earlier in the pod. Well, that probably wasn't just. That was probably an hour and a half ago, but we were talking elsewhere in the pod today about actually how one of the real achievements of this season is the miracle of being able to somehow find

make it feel like a character like Clea is basically like one of the main characters. Now, if you actually totaled up the runtime, that probably wouldn't be true, but it's like, boy, we've gotten a lot of time with someone like Clea who was more in the background. We've gotten a lot of time with somebody like Lonnie who was more in the background. And so to not have had that with Cinta and with Cinta and Vel, and then to lose them. And I think like, you know,

the idea i thought i think that we'll talk about what vel says to to sam which i think is very very yeah intense and and harrowing uh as a bit of writing and scene work and performance um but it's you know at the end of the day it's also like on the one hand there's there's there's beauty and and power and saying that you carry these people with you but there's also like i think that's easy to see how that could just be one more um lament right is like

Since it's just a lesson for someone else. Yeah. No. You know? For Sam? For fucking Sam? For Sam with two M's? Sam with two M's? That's a great point. Sam with two M's. Do you want to hear about what we, what Vel says to Sam with two M's? Of course I do. This is on you now. She's like, stop crying. This is like skin. You're taking her with you wherever you go for the rest of your useless life. Real good. Real good stuff.

Kids playing at war, like you said earlier, right? They actually weren't ready now. They do care. They do believe that they are fighting for something real. And so I guess you could say like, well, is this the way to coach them up? But they're not ready yet. And that is true. Anything else on Gorman before we head to Coruscant? No, thank you.

Let's talk some ISB, some Senate and spy politics and parties. I love a heist. Just another lively dude with a pen. A heist with formal wear. Luthans three. It's three, right? It's Luthan, Clay, and Lonnie. Are we counting Lonnie as one of the three? It's not Ocean's Eleven, but it'll do. Um...

I think Lonnie would be like, at most, I'm willing to let you count me as half of a participant. I was very reluctant to move to the left. No, Lonnie's like, please don't include me. I was reluctant to move to the left.

Man, you know, though, when like when when Clea turns to Lonnie and she's like, we're up. Let's prove that you can pass the test. And then he does. Yeah. Great stuff. Great stuff. Great stuff from Clea. Just really, really good. Clea rocks. Clea fucking rocks. Before we get to the various galas and banquets and Senate events.

We do have to have another just day of meetings. A lot of meetings. Active. I think that Partagast thanking Lani, reminding them how the room was meant to function was exquisite. It's just so funny. It's very consistent for Partagast who like, when Dedra would sort of speak out, you know, against Blevin or whatever in season one, he'd be like, thank you, Dedra. Invited it. Yeah. Yeah.

So Lonnie makes a calculated risk here. You know, he sticks his neck out for two people that he then uses as assets. Immediately works them. Yeah. Impressive. We're ingesting data. 12 raids, three planets, lots of other numbers are thrown out here.

And Partagas replies, who's this we at this buffet of rebel plunder? And this is my husband's favorite show. It might be number one on his Star Wars power rankings by the end of it. I'm not sure I've ever heard him laugh so hard. Ever. As at that line. Our listener Meg said, now that Karn Corner is a whole house in and of itself in the plot, maybe y'all can replace it with Partagasms, the joy of a well-turned phrase. So Mallory Rubin.

Put it on the merch. I would like to invite you to rank these Partigasms, or at least pick your favorite. Okay. Okay. I mean, this is going to be really hard. So you've always already called out, they're inexperienced but eager, how often those attributes align. Yeah. We've got here, who is this we at this buffet of Rubble Plunder? That was on my list. Great stuff. Yeah. We're about to get the one about calibrating. That's my favorite. Yeah. But...

What did you say? Really, it's an assignment. Calibrate your enthusiasm. That was my favorite. Hard to beat. But I do want to just put out, we're skeptically confident, sir. And he says, words to live by.

That's actually my favorite. He's just the best. Again, a monster. An ISB tyrant. We don't like best. No, we don't. No. It's a no for us. The performance is so fucking good. And the writing is so good. Sublime. Sublime.

So hopefully we'll get more partagasms next week. Thank you so much, Meg, for this new bit. I appreciate it. I love that. The bad babies always come through. Partagasms is so good. We already kind of talked about how Lani will work both Liguret and Hirt. Anything else? Here's another one. Yeah. It was interesting when Hirt, who was like Deja's assistant last season, and we were sort of clocking him, sort of speaking up a little bit out of turn in meeting.

or like we were like does Deirdre like this or does Deirdre threaten by this we weren't sure last season and now I'm like she does not like this no yeah because now he's been promoted he's given her desk and she is pissed and she's like you don't call me I was I I encouraged you I am access desk god damn it I fucking bred you what are you doing here I love the way she said

There's a lot of scoffing, very effective scoffing across the episodes. I love the scoff and then, well, you've given me a lot to think about. Great stuff. I mean, this actually, like, I would, I'm not sure if we've said it today, we're out on fascists, but, um, I, this made me like, yeah, this made me like Deirdre more because, Deirdre in. It's,

The gall. The gall. And this was what Deirdre and Partagas discussed last arc, right? It's like, it's going to seem like a demotion. Like, you're going to have to sit there and take it while other people step into the thing you worked for. Now, we had some other feedback on how she handled Axis as well. But, like, her former aide is like, I don't need your fucking help. And she can't be like, let me tell you what's really going on. I'm going to be in a private room with Party later. Yeah. Getting...

We didn't mention that Cyril was like on a balcony under a hood feeding them intel. And I'm just like, is his cover intact still? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. This was just really great stuff.

We already talked about Lonnie and the way that he immediately is like, well, yeah, let's go. Let's chat about this later. And then, oh, yeah, you can buy me lunch and really just work in the sources very effectively. I think this is very impressive stuff from Lonnie, though I am convinced that he will be found out and killed soon. What did you think of when Lonnie went to report the Dedra Gorman news to Luthor? Back on the same elevator? I would, I actually like, I mean, I thought the scene was really good.

I would never have gone there again if I were Andor. It's the setting of the most iconic scene in the show. Don't go back. I honestly can't believe they did it. Yeah. I was astonished, but I thought it was really good. But I was like, wow, the balls to go back to that lift. We talked about this already. Lucent's just like,

what? He's totally flummoxed by this. By the Deirdre Gorman reveal, what's the obsession with Gorman? What are they after? And Lonnie says, I don't know. I'm trying to rethink this all with her in the picture. Now, everybody is clocking the propaganda, but as Luthien says, like, Mero's a hunter, not a spin doctor. I love that. I love that summation of

her style and the nature of her. It's very clear they've hired Sterling Draper Cooper Price. Exactly. He's a bad source. Too slick for the ISV. That was just fantastic. And then they talk about the idea of rushing again because Luton's like, I can't wait this long. And Lonnie says, you used to tell me to wait.

Those days are gone. I loved that again as a way to not only show us where Luthan is now, where the rebellion is now, but like how things have changed. Haven't you heard we only have eight more episodes? Sorry, six more episodes. Joanna, it's only six! Yeah. I don't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I'm not ready to say goodbye. Let's talk about Senate politics. Uh,

This was actually really good, this Mon sequence. Mon is trying to whip some votes. Yeah, not succeeding. Not doing well. Erskine by her side. Always. Bucky Barnes, Pompadour in full effect. She's trying to combat P.O.R.D., which is the sentencing, the harsh sentencing that we learned about around Narcina 5. Yes. What I love about this, we'll get to, we already talked about some of the other stuff, but like,

In the Narkeena 5 plotline, when Andor goes into Narkeena 5 and everyone in there is like, everyone's talking about this, right? Everyone's talking about this. Everyone's really upset about this. Yeah. And then they're like, oh my God, they don't know about this at all. And that's when we got like the nobody is listening. Yes. And what I love about this, two things. One, Mon Mothma is listening. Yes. And number two-

Melchie's like, the people need to know. Yeah, that was the parting plea. Melchie! Cassian. You know, so somebody knows it's Mon. She's trying to do something. Whether or not she's not getting anywhere with it, but like, somebody's listening. It's Mon Mothma. She is trying to work inside of the system and finding no luck. And this is like one of those sort of, how does it work inside of the system? Similar, I think, to the Gorman French resistance is sort of like, what can we do that sort of

you know, won't cause too many waves, but can, can show the people like all Rylance wants to do is like get the evidence to show the people. Once the people see, then they will know. Um, and Sam's like blasters, maybe, you know, like there's like, what do we do inside of the system versus outside of the system? And I just think that like, what if you meet the limits of what you can do inside of the system? Like then what? So Senator Oren, um,

Yeah. Not great in terms of like, I can't risk chafing the emperor. Chafe him up. Chafe him good, man. Chafe him. He's got plenty of skin suits waiting if he gets too chafed. Chafe him up. Gorman's being persecuted so intensely. And I'm not sure linking anything to Gorman right now is a good idea, is like advice Mana's given. Also, when she talks...

to a different senator and he says, I believe what I feel. And that's interesting in terms of like the propaganda war that's being fought. But then again, it's just sort of like, what are the optics of a place like Gorman? Right. And what will that do to sentiment across the Senate, across the galaxy? Yeah. And it was so interesting to get, obviously that's one of the things that Cyril and his mother discussed, right? Or Imperial News. My opinions were established long before.

But so to take it from like a family setting and then to like the actual theater of politics and see where the how deeply rooted the parallels are is harrowing and fascinating and obviously eerily reminiscent of certain present circumstances. I thought also in to go back to Star Wars, the like idea that this was emergency legislation that Palpatine was just going to like, well, let's just run it back. It's like, hmm.

Has this guy ever done this before? It's not, guys. It'll just be for a minute. It's fine. Then I'll go. Really, really wild stuff. Last thing before we leave Mon's political career behind for the moment is this is the Palace of Arts in Valencia, Spain, where they filmed this. And I just want to say shout out the Westworld viewers. They definitely know this location very well. Oh, that's fun. I was like, oh, hey, I know you.

that strange white building I've seen you before all right let's do a heist it's time for a heist uh we talked last week about how one of the things that Tony Gilroy is very upfront about is like sometimes I gotta figure out how to get people into the room I need them to be in yeah this is an interesting example yeah a lot of key participants end up in the same place but it was really fun to watch them get there really really fun to watch them get there and then even more fun to watch them get out of there um

Clay is always on that radio, keeping up on the latest intel. And we learned that they have put this bug on...

One of the relics of the Kodak. Antiquities, yeah. Which is like a fun payoff from the first arc, right? Yeah, this Davos-Golden relationship. They have an incredible argument coming up between Luthan and Clea about whether this was worth doing and anything they learned was useful. Bug Davos-Golden, you said. It'll be fine, you said. I was like cackling watching this. Let's keep making avoidable mistakes. And then she just fired back, let's keep overreacting.

acting, and then they're both just, like, pulling receipts. He's like, I wouldn't be so mad if I hadn't warned you about this. And she's like, here are all the things we learned. Just thought this was fucking exceptional. It was great. I love all their scenes together. Yeah. And this is where our gal, Miriam Asder, comes into play, Mishko. Clay hears there is a forgery in the Scalding Collection, and that means the entire collection is going to be subject to a fresh sweep. New review. So they have to get the bug out of there. Hopefully...

It's party season. There's a gala. Let me just say. Yeah. Clea, we love. We've reiterated this 900 times. We just could not be more pleased with Clea this season. Fantastic. I will say the tears in her. She has like her eyes are watery with like

of what is going to happen if the bug is exposed there. And given that it seems like it was her initiative, how that is her fault. Also, this whole heist puts her on the front line in a way that we haven't seen her need to be so far. And I don't know if this is like... Because she's been sort of operating things, working the switchboard, you know? But we watched her...

meet Vel somewhere. But we haven't had to watch her, like, do a mission. And so here she is in, like... At the wedding, she was like, I'm getting a drink. Yeah, here she is in full, like, sort of Sidney Bristow on an alias mission mode. And I just, like, really... What do you put on the line? Like, what are you willing to do? Also, she looks amazing. So does Mon. Everyone looks amazing. Everyone does look great. The paparazzi droid looked great. Everyone loved Mon! Everyone loved Mon!

Great dog. So funny. Yeah. So many little details. Like when, when, when Skulden is greeting Mon and Perrin and he's like, have you talked to the kids since they're back? And Mon's like, oh yeah, I guess I should. And it's like, okay, so you haven't. Like you're, you're not speaking. So they went on a honeymoon. Probably.

So it's been like a year. For a year? And Mon's like... Listen, I'm prepared to recant all of my commentary on the schedule of wedding custom if you get to take a year-long honeymoon. I'm back in! You're like, I will go on that hike. They brought me back in! Yeah, so parents here, but yeah. Great stuff from really everyone in this sequence. I just continue to love how Clea calls Luthan on his bullshit.

I really think this is great. In a way that no one else can. Yeah. What is their relationship? Right. How do they come together? How do they know each other? This is something else I was thinking about recently because we talked about those specific questions a lot in season one. It's a credit to the show that it is...

so excellent and deep and fully realized and fully rendered that we are, I think we happily accept actually like not knowing a lot about the histories of many of these characters in a way that we would not accept in other shows. Cause we have so much to fill the space. We feel like we know the true things and the things we need to be able to understand how they behave, but like, yeah. Wow. What is their history?

How do they come into each other's lives? How do they each come to this place in the first place? It's just fascinating. This is where Luthan kind of pulls the Lonnie, right? And he's like, too much to take in. Too much to take in. We're drowning and you keep pretending it's all under control.

It's not all under control. And so I guess it's like heartening in a way that Luthan admits that, but then it makes me anxious when somebody who's happy to send other people into the fire and talk about how brightly it'll burn is also like, guys, I'm having a hard time remembering what we put where. It's not ideal. Not great. Oh, man. A moment we must for this exchange between Perrin and Mon. Not a lot of time for these two, but Perrin's like 80 dinners. We waited so long before we threw our first one.

It's tough squeezing a whole year's worth of insincerity into three nights, Perrin says. And Mon replies, you'll figure it out.

Joe, no one's more prepared to figure out how to be insincere for three nights with Perrin. Can I say one of my favorite comments I saw? I think it was on the subreddit. Someone wrote, if they put an embargo on the Gorman twill, how will Perrin get his Jedi cosplay outfits? Oh, man. Great question. Great question.

It is a great question. God. I just, I forgot that we talked about how Perrin cosplays as a Jedi at all times. It's really funny. I love Perrin. I do. I really do. It's time to converge at the party. Guess who Man and Perrin pass on their way in?

Someone we've definitely seen before in Star Wars. It's Bail Organa. It's Bail Organa. Played by Benjamin Bratt. Not Jimmy Spitz. So the story is that Jimmy Spitz had a scheduling conflict.

I found this shocking to not see him as Bale. To present to the court, even though he just played him in Obi-Wan, I know. That's the thing. That was so recent. I was like, how long can we expect Jimmy Smits to... We were already in Rogue One. We were like, I know, so much time has passed. You know what I mean? But he just did it a couple of years ago. Yeah. And like,

He isn't a Rogue One. I don't know. This was very odd through me. But also, like, we do often talk about, like, stop feeling like you need to de-age people and just cast a different performer. So maybe I should be celebrating it. I don't know. Here's what I love about including the Tarkin Massacre in all of this. They did not have to include Tarkin. And I don't know if they are going to include Tarkin this season or not, but, like, in terms of the

like, main pushback for Rogue One being the digital version of Tarkin that they did. Terrible. Maybe they could just get the actor who plays Hirt, who has the exact same cheekbones. Very similar role structure. To play Tarkin. Dude, he is otherwise occupied. Oh, yeah. The Cali Coolers.

He's like, yeah, as like a low-ranking guy invited to the party, this is just 10 out of 10. So good. Absolutely classic. It's like, I'm going to be back. I can't wait to earn another invite. He does get to just sort of enjoy himself. Everyone's got different nights ahead of them because LeGrette, besties with Krennic?

Interesting. It's like, oh, where's your buddy? So this feels like part of the pipeline of information that eventually makes its way to Lonnie, right? So that's where he got that info, do you think, right?

I can't think of another. I can't think of another. Kiert knows about something about Deirdre. That she has a different assignment. Yeah, but not what it is. And then Legrette maybe knows a bit about what's happening in Gorman. That's what it feels like, is that Lani, who is good at this, was able to piece that together from his various sources, I think. Clea going up to Lani. He's like, what are you doing? She says, pretend we're flirting.

An icon, a legend. I love her. Takes him in, goes to the codex, pulls the pin off, fires it up, and begins to work the retrieval of the bug. Lonnie is horrified. He's like, do you know who's in this room? We're going to talk about Krennic and Maude in a second, but it's Krennic. Krennic! This is suicide.

Lonnie says. I thought the moment where he asked, what would you do? Like, what were you going to do if I wasn't here? And Clea said, anything I had to was just fucking sick. She's a bum. Because she, you could tell she means it. Yeah. And like, the literal

skin in the game of her bleeding hand as she's doing everything they're bearing down on her they're an inch away she's coaching him through it moving him left to right but also making sure he knows what to say to preserve their cover and retracting this thing this was just like god it was so good life and death and again in that cronut sense it was so good and meanwhile we get a delicious critic and mon interaction happening at the same time it's not just like

rutabaga, rutabaga, rutabaga, there's something happening across the room with some Imperial people. It's fucking Ben Mendelsohn, who we're excited to have in this season of television, here to just sort of like swan about in his capes and just sort of drawl and...

sneer and just be wonderful and talk about like how ineffectual Mon Mothma's hearings and committees are. That was so funny. It's so good. It's wonderful. I gotta chill. We don't like fascists. No. Thank you for mentioning it. You're welcome. It's good. It's important. I gotta chill when Davo, because Mon, you know, brings Luthan in. My history teacher is here with me. Yeah. And then when Davo's like, oh, you know, and the procurer is here tonight and introduces Luthan.

I got a full body chill. It was an incredible moment. On the mon-mothma-crenic front,

very emblematic to me of the the how both things are true on the one hand i wish that we had more seasons of this show and i believe i have no reason not to believe that if we if we had gotten them all of them would have been sensational and like to get to see more of those interactions between them i think would have been riveting but also what we got here told us everything we need to know i agree again efficiency of storytelling it's so good i don't have any other than like

the one we launched about Centennial. I don't have any complaints about this season. I just, and I understand they took a year to grow a field of rye or took half a year to like populate the props in a bodega. Like so much is going into this. They did not want to like drain their life force.

for so many... But could we have gotten three seasons? I know. Three seasons. That's where I am, too. Why not three? Three seasons. Not five, but three. As Lani said, I doubt there are three people in the building who know that. Three. That's the number. Three seasons.

And so I can watch Mon say shit like, how pleasant to see you free of the witness stand more often. One of the sickest lines. That was just fucking amazing. I loved it. I loved watching them go back and forth and how, I mean, Krennic is terrifying. Krennic is terrifying. And Mon stood toe to toe with him and didn't back down. Did not back down at all. And that's like that. I mean, we already love Mon and we believe in her and we know that she's incredibly brave and,

But I thought it was really cool to see the various forms bravery takes for her. There's the bravery of operating in the shadows. There's the bravery of standing in somebody's face and telling them what you think about them. And she does it all. I thought that was really, really cool. You know, Krennic just is so entertaining. Like when they get the lesson about blindness is a gift and he's like, oh, oh, oh. I wonder what, oh.

Remarkable stuff. They pull it off. What did you think of the moment when Luthan and Cleo were escaping? And she hands it over, mission accomplished. And Luthan's like, oh, we probably should have killed Krennic when we were in there, right? This was so like, alright.

Arya having to explain why she didn't use a jock and kill on the right people coded to me. Like, well, they're going to wonder. They're all going to say it. We should probably have the characters say it. Yeah, let's lampshade it. Yeah, it was really funny. And then, like, how nice to see them laugh together. That was great. Yeah. That was great. Six more episodes. Okay, so, and then another season. I think that was where we landed. Oh, okay. They could just go back and do it.

Given that they have been saying that Rogue One acts as a... Oh, just do the other six months. Okay. I was going to say, they've been talking about how Rogue One could act as a series finale. You can just watch Rogue One after the finale and that would work. But I'm like, I don't know. How much air is between... Is it like seconds? Minutes? Mere minutes? I've been wondering that. How much air is between...

Is there going to be footage from Rogue One in the finale? Like, how much air... Yeah, does it actually overlap at all? Can we insert a season of television between the two is a great question I would like to ask you. I'm in. Let's do it. Or just, you know, we can go back in time again and join later on her honeymoon. Plenty of options. Her year-long jaunt around the outer rim. Sounds great. Okay. Take us back in time and show us them scooping Tay's body.

From the bottom of the ravine. And then Cinta, slightly higher up, she didn't have as far to fall, which is why she was only injured, not dead. You know how in Indiana Jones or other action movies, there's always a helpful branch on the side of the ravine? The branch caught Cinta and then Tay went all the way down. That's what happened. I think that's probably right. Yeah.

Let's make sure. Why are there always branches growing out of the side of ravines? Just like one lone branch. That's a great question. I'm not a topography expert. So let's add it to the list. We have one more thing for the list. Chris and Andy are going to have a lot to ask Tony Gilroy at the end of the season. I do think it is our duty to convince Chris to ask about this. It's sent to flip the car.

Imagine if they asked Tony Kimmerer. So my colleagues were wondering. Yeah. I feel like Andy talks to Tony all the time. I feel like I can ask Andy to text him. Yeah, there you go. Get on it. People might think listening to this that we've been huffing right up. There it is. But there's only three and we're already here. You said it a couple times, though. I feel like that's part of the tally. Oh, you just changed the rules entirely. The Imperial Charter stated...

You would not. The intel changes quickly. You have to adapt. All right. Let's join. We're in Dakar. Saw Gerrera. Do you want to know a fun fact about this? Please. In doing the, you know, they do the establishing shot where there's like a ring of, uh, meteoroid debris around the planet. They put potatoes in there as a nod to original Star Wars. I love it. Yeah. Kind.

Russet? Taters? What are taters? What finger? I mean, like, maybe a Yukon gold? Oil a mashup? Put them in a stew? A fingerling would be good. Maybe not robust enough. It doesn't make a good asteroid. No, you need a russet. Yeah. Great. Okay. Glad we established that.

We only have 20 minutes to four. It's been three hours, so let's go. I think we're ahead of schedule, frankly. I think we're all free, but not if we stay too long on potatoes. Good note. We can't linger in the fingerlings. We gotta go. Oh my god. Our guy Will is here. Will. Mon. Willmon. The boy. He's there. At Sawger. I'm Sawger. I've been up in Rhino.

Wilmon is here and he is presenting a device that requires real skill to use. And it is... Depending on the setting of the place where you are. A lot of variations. You got to carry all the primes. Yeah. Sounds like a math thing. I don't know. I'm not a mathematician. Add it to the list. Not a mathematician. I think that might have been on the list already, actually. I'm sure it was.

It's a drill. It's for plundering Rhydonium. Now, Rhydonium is present across many swaths of the Star Wars canon, has appeared in a number of different properties. Very recently, it featured in the Mayfell Din Heist in a Mandalorian episode.

But for the animated Star Wars heads, this is just very prevalent across both Clone Wars and Rebels. There are frequent attempts to steal Redonion because it's very volatile, as we hear. But also, this is the fuel for starships, and so it is an incredibly valuable thing. And also, if you were seeking to foster rebellion, you need Redonion.

Fuel. So it comes into play quite often. Here's a normal thing. Not for often until here. Here's a normal thing to say. Yeah. Work up a thirst, find a vein, take what you want when you want it. He also says pipe poacher. Is he there? Are they stealing? He says pipe poacher. So are they stealing from. Yeah. Rido reserves or are they fracking? They're stealing from.

Other reserves, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. They're hitting stations. Like the fuel reserves. So when he says find a vein, he just means actually not a vein in the earth of natural gas, but just like... Yes. I think so. Okay. I believe so. Do you think Saw Gerrera lost his leg because of space diabetes due to righto inhalation? No.

This introduces so many questions about the state we find him in in Rogue One. Because if you don't recall, we find him in Rogue One. He's lost a leg that he currently has, and he's on a ventilator. Is he huffing Rido? Is it a blue velvet moment? Is he huffing Rido through the ventilator? Wee!

in Rogue One or is he huffing is he on a ventilator because he's destroyed his lungs too much Rido people thought we would see like a great battle scene where where Saw Gerrera gets like loses his leg and gets put on a ventilator but what if it's just the drugs man this is I think so much better this is just fantastic maybe you're like me

Maybe you love the smell of it. Maybe you breathe just a little too deeply burn from the inside. You watch your skin blisters and melts. Like, this seems like a deeply uncool high to me. I know. This seems bad. This seems really bad. The fact that this is clearly part of, like, the creed under which he is ruling the partisans is, like...

we're going to go drink our Rhydo. I'm like, was blistering skin part of the recruitment pitch? I don't want it. Or you die loud. I don't want it. I don't want it. Do you think tubes can huff Rhydo given the tube situation? Great question. Yeah. Wow. Maybe he's going liquid. Yeah.

Slurping right on. Can you chime in, Tony? Let it spill. Don't even need a spark. Do ya, boy. Do ya. Boom! Just fantastic stuff. Will's, like, just kind of keeping quiet. Taking it all in. Processing. He will not tell Saw. You mentioned earlier the, like,

Who taught you this? Where'd you learn? Now we know. And Luthan is kind of alluded to. Will's like, you can't keep me here. This was negotiated. Plutie says, you know, how are you going to explain his absence? Oh, there are accidents. Will is part of the Luthan squad, but I'm with you. I think this, based on what we saw in season one, this idea of learning, you know, we hear Plutie say, good engineer, maybe even a great one. That came from his father on Ferex.

I think the fact that he won't say anything about that history because it's private, it's his personal motivation, but also won't say anything, obviously, about Luthen or anyone else. Saw sees something there he likes, right? You're going to stay quiet. And I think that Will belongs with Saw. Like, I think this is a match made in heaven. I think we don't agree on this. What has Will done to deserve Saw, Guerrero? I think that they have. I mean, he was...

He's like, you gave me one pretty intense speech and I'm going to rip my mask off and breathe in the Raito I'm in. Here's the follow-up question about tubes. Do you think tubes is just always huffing Raito? Oh, could be. Always be huffing? That's the tubes motto? I think when he was just like, trouser! You could feel it. Yeah. You could feel it. But I think that there are real parallels in Will and Saw's past. You know, when we get to the extraction a little bit later...

And we hear Saw talk about Onderon. He uses the word sister. We're going to get to some of that in a minute. But like the idea of this formative loss that Set saw on the path of

to be not just a rebel, but an extremist. I think, like, we have not forgotten that Will builds a bomb and throws it into a town square in season one. Like, I think he's got that extremist blood in him. Okay, great point. Do you want to, for our listeners at home who have not watched Rebels or Bad Batch or Clone Wars, give them, like, a summation of Saga, like, how we got here with this maniac Saga era? The most important thing you need to know is

Saw is present across many comic books, animated properties. He's present across the canon. He's in Rebels, in Clone Wars, and Bad Batch.

which take place in his youth. He's just so fucking hot. I don't think this is what you meant when you asked me to talk about his past, but I do. I'm not surprised. As a on-the-record Star Wars cartoons can be really hot. Shout out animated Obi-Wan. Animated Saw.

Quite handsome. Really looked great. So there's a great Clone Wars stretch set on Onderon. Anakin's there. Ahsoka's there. The Separatists hold on Onderon. We hear Saw talk here about being a prisoner, about the jungles, about the Rido leak. But Saw and his sister, Stela, were part of a...

mounting a rebellion to challenge separatist rule of their home world. And, spoiler for Clone Wars, his sister does not make it through. She is killed. And throughout the rest of Saw's arc, I mean, he's carrying a hollow of her picture the rest of his life. Like, she is...

the North Star for him as he forms the partisans and mounts his version. He is fighting the Empire in her name. With love and respect to Saw and some of his tactics. Yeah. And I think in a lot of revolutions, you need a Saw or, you know, a counter to Mon Mothma. He's pitched as a counter to Mon Mothma. They are opposed. Yeah. Where do you think he lost the plot? At what point?

Was it his very first half of Rido? Like, was it the moment his sister died? Yeah, I think it was way, way back when. Do you think, like, if Order 66 hadn't happened and the Empire hadn't happened, like, he could have been a leader and something like this, but it was just sort of, like, sent him back to his youth and losing his sister. I think...

It's a really good question. I think that, like, not a mathematician, as mentioned earlier. I think, like, Saw feels to me like a character defined by exponential things.

Where, you know, a couple things happen and then the way that those have a bearing on his behavior and his decisions moving forward. Like, I won't get into it in case anybody is like, oh, I'm really excited to, oh, Sawz and Clone Wars and Bad Batch and Rebels. I want to go watch all of it. Any place you pick, you're going to see something disturbing. Any place. And by the time you get to Rebels...

I mean, there's some harrowing shit that he is doing. And even though, and again, like we talk, we love talking about the debate between Saw and Luthan in season one.

this idea that they are... And, you know, I'm just describing Saw and Mon as opposed. Like, they're all fighting for the same thing, the rebellion, defeating the Empire, but they're doing it in very different ways. It's tactics, yeah. Saw's approach is really... He's basically, like, no half measures. Yeah, yes, yeah. And, like, the full measure, it's blistering skin for him, right? It's like you take the mask off and you put your head in the rhino's steam. Like, there's...

there's all the way and then there's beyond all the way and then there's where Saw is. And for him, that's the only way, which like a number of different characters give us, again, their version of that. Like everyone has their own rebellion. So I think Saw is like an incredible character and obviously this is a wonderful performance. And I think the other thing, you know, I love that you mentioned kind of like the physical ailments that are on display in Rogue One, but

Another thing that obviously is really central in Rogue One was saw is the paranoia. And that's also present throughout, but like deception, lies, deception, boggle it. How can we not be thinking of that with what happens here with Plutie? You know, Will teaches Plutie. Plutie's like, I prefer you not kill him.

When Saw says, all right, you're good to go. You got the variations. I'm going to get rid of him. And then basically says, like, I'd have the confidence you need if you told me where we were going and Saw deduces from this that Plutie is a spy. Has tubes pull out the transfer. I think Plutie is a spy. I think so, too. I agree. I think Plutie being like, I need you to tell me exactly where we are going is probably, this is probably an example of where Saw was right. But...

I think because it's Saw, we sort of always have to wonder the fact that there's... He didn't ask him. Now, maybe it wouldn't have mattered what he said. He just shot him in the fucking head. Do you think Plutio would have been like, why, yes, I am a spy. How clever of you to deduce it, Saw Gerrera. Maybe. Notable level-headed guy. It's entirely possible. Yeah. It's entirely possible. I really liked the way that Will snapped the little back spine.

off the massive and was just like, it was like a, like a Slim Jim. He's just chomping on that as he watched them talk. I thought this was all very interesting. Saul says, it's on you, boy. No more ploody. Will's got to do it. I thought the,

overlaying of Saw's speech, yet another example of where something as physical as happening while we hear something, with Will actually clicking the gears into place and we know how high stakes it is. We know Saw's making it out, but still, I was like, my heart was racing watching him break the gauge. I just thought that was incredible. I was like, let him fucking concentrate. I know. He's got a lot that he's focusing on. So we get his origin story and then we hear a couple other

Frankly, I think just incredible things. I understand it because she's my sister, right? And when she loves me again, Sister Stila feels very intentional that close to the Onderon mention. My sister, right? My sister, right? She loves me. I'm just going to huff her off.

you think I'm crazy. Yes, I am. Revolution is not for the sane. Look at us. Unloved, hunted cannon fodder will all be dead before the Republic is back. And yet here we are. Now, Luthan said, I burned my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see. That was part of the great speech in episode 10 last season. And that's the same idea. A number of people who are at the forefront of this charge don't expect to make it to the other side, but they do it anyway.

Saw? It's a great speech. I love it. Vel and Saw just dropping bars in these episodes. Really incredible stuff. I love it. We're the Rido kid. We're the fuel. We're the thing that explodes when there's too much friction in the air. That was me as Will taking my first off. I would say not even once. Rido? It's freedom, Colin. Rido? Not once? You wouldn't try it once? Not even once. No?

I feel like you're a try-everything-once person. But I do love that as it clocks perfectly with everything we know. This is how Saw thinks about revolution, right? Revolution is the thing that explodes. Like, revolution is the thing that melts your skin away. Are you worried about Will? How do you feel?

I'm basically worried about everyone who I have not seen in the film Rogue One. Pretty much. Saw, you're fine. You're a maniac, but you're fine. Mon, you're fine. Yep. Cass and Andor, you're fine. Yeah. That's it. Bail Organa, you're fine. That's it. Right, bail's good. Recast, but fine. Yeah, we're fine. I like the idea of Will surviving. But it's a short list of people I would say I'm confident are going to make it through.

Is there anyone who's not in Rogue One that you feel like there's no way this person dies? Good question. Dedra? Okay. Yeah. Dedra's going to make it. I think so. Tough shit, Zerokarn. Edie? Edie?

Oh, Edie should make it. Edie's eternal. Edie's a cockroach. She should make it. Edie's eternal. Yeah. I'm sure if we revisit Rise of Skywalker, we can find Edie there. Somehow, Edie Karn returned. Joe, we did it. Did we make it under three? We did. Wow. To the minute of last week, I think. Wild. All right. Thank you. Different crew today. Great crew this week. John Richter is here, as always.

Thank you, John. Kai Greedy's here with us today. Kai's stepping in. Yeah, guys. Yeah. I love you. I love House of Our Happy Top. Wait, the pot is going to be how long? It's an assignment, Gallop.

Enthusiasm. That's what Kai said to us when he heard what the runtime was likely to be. I hope Kai made himself a snack. Cameron Dinwiddie, back with us again to help with the video edit today. Arjuna Ramgopal, obviously, as always, production supervision. And Jomia Deneron, helping with the social, as always. That's it, Jo. That's all we got. We'll be back so soon with Thunderbolts. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Wild. Thank you for reminding us how this pod is meant to function, Joanna.

That was a partagasm. I know. I know. One partagasm before leaving. Bye. Bye.