‘Andor’ Season 2, Episodes 7-9 Deep Dive
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And it smells like victory for all of us. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card is a no-fee credit card that gives you daily cash back every day. That's 3% back at Apple and 2% back on every purchase made with Apple Card using Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card, the wallet app on your iPhone today.

Subject to credit approval, variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of January 1st, 2025. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. Greetings and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin.

Joining me today. Yeah. I've done a poor job of letting her know how much I admire her grace. Oh my God. It's Joanna Robinson. Wow. That just inspires me. Should I start wearing drapey silks the way that mom Othman does on the way to work?

Is that what I should do? Yes. Great. Absolutely. And then if at any point you need to shed that drapey cloak, I will be there. Okay. With a hearty... With a hearty jacket. Jacket. That does sound like you. You, Baskin, Joel Miller, you all got your coat came on lock. Love it. It's true. Jo, we are here today, let's just say it right at the top, to talk about three of the best episodes of television ever made. Masterpieces? Yeah.

We are here to talk about the third arc of Andor Season 2, Episode 7, Messenger, Episode 8, Who Are You?, and Episode 9, Welcome to the Rebellion. We have so much to get to today. We appreciate everybody's patience as we are one day off of our usual schedule. Thank you all to the Bad Babies for waiting to share these wonderful episodes with us. Before we dive in, some very quick programming reminders.

Everyone's covering Andor here at the Ringerverse. The Midnight Boys, pew, pew, have an instant reaction waiting for you already up on the Ringerverse feed and will have their instant reaction to the three-part finale next week for you on Wednesday morning. We will be back.

Thursday evening next week with our deep dive. Very deep. I anticipate it being a very deep dive. Our memorial service to Andor, one of the best TV shows that's ever existed. I'm not ready to stop discussing Andor, so...

Yeah, Mallory has actually already come up with plans for how we can keep talking about Edward. I'm plotting for how to extend it at least one more week. I'm just simply not ready to conclude. Benjamin Lindbergh, old Ben Lindberghi, is writing about the show every week on TheRinger.com. What a great website. But that's not all because we are also covering The Last of Us Season 2 right now. Here's the schedule. Sunday night, Midnight Boys, pew, pew, instant reaction. Monday night, House of R Deep Dive. Monday, The Watch.

Thursday, Joe and Rob checking in on the Proceeds TV podcast with an interview, spoiler chat, gamer guide chat, all of it. It's all happening everywhere. And on the gamer front, we also have a button mash episode on Thursdays from Ben and Daniel on the Ringerverse. Joanna.

How can everybody follow along? How can they catch up on all of our Thunderbolts coverage if they haven't yet, et cetera? Gosh, what a great question. Here's my thought. If you want to just follow the pod, subscribe to our pod, to the Ringerverse, to the Prestige feed where you can hear Mally Rubin talk about hacks, whatever you want to hire, that might be a good start. Also, just, yeah, as a reminder, you can watch us.

Yes. Um, we're doing great over here. We're doing fine. So it's really fun to watch us try to tackle all of this content at once. Um, and then, um, you know, follow us on social, the social media platform of your choice, um, where we're definitely not dodging, uh,

propaganda at any given time spun out from the Imperial news sources. So, and then email us, please. Hobbits and Dragons and T-Mobile. You folks sent so many meaty, juicy, lengthy, wonderful emails about Andor. I learned so much just reading what you guys sent in. Thank you so much for watching the show so closely, for caring about it and for sharing those thoughts with us. Y'all are the best. So that's what I would suggest.

Beautiful. Bad babies are the best. Here's the final reminder. It's the Friendly Neighborhood spoiler warning. We will, of course, be talking in detail about the three episodes of Andor that we are covering today. We will also be talking about all of Andor to date and all of Star Wars. If it's ever happened in Star Wars, it could come up today. That's the spoiler warning. Wow. That's a lot. Yep. Even if this show contradicts what has happened elsewhere in Star Wars. I'm wearing my Rebel shirt today. Nice.

Yeah, it felt right. It felt right to represent our beloved Spectres today. Joe, this is your flu game. You have the flu and yet you are such a champion that you were here with us anyway.

I stand in awe. I would be napping, sleeping, but it is one of the many testaments to how incredible these episodes of television are that you actually just refused to not do the podcast despite literally having the flu. That's genuinely hilarious because I know people have recently listened to you podcast with the flu. So listen. Well, but that's because when I get the flu, it's like, I'm on day 12. I guess I should pod, but that's not how the first few days go.

Here's how it works a few days ago. And I can't wait. Listen, it's just so good. And I'm devastated to be like slightly, but hopefully not totally under the weather as we talk about this because...

And genuinely, this is like life-altering art that we're watching on Andor right now. I'm just in awe. And I feel so lucky that I get to talk to you about it because you are so brilliant and so knowledgeable in the realm of Star Wars. So I'm excited. Joe, you're the best. I'm so glad that we get to do this today. Let's get right from that setup into our opening snapshot. We've already sort of said it.

But anything else on the table setting front here that you want to note before we get into our very deep, deep dive today about this third arc of the season directed beautifully by Jana Smets, written stunningly.

stunningly by Dan Gilroy, set in 2 BBY, once again, one year after the prior arc, one year before the arc to come, which is our final arc. I'm not ready to watch it and say goodbye. These episodes were unbelievable. Tell us how they affected you. Tell us how they have been sitting with you over the last few days since you watched them.

And we should say we have had confirmation that each arc is just three days, right? Yeah. So this is 72 hours in the life of a rebellion and we will get, I guess our next arc is the three-day countdown to Rogue One, which is absolutely wild because Tony Gilroy has said you could basically watch Rogue One as a series finale. So that's what we're getting next week. It's very exciting. I thought this was absolutely...

television. And there's two things specifically that I want to call out on a big scale. I mean, like all three episodes are incredibly good. It's wild that the, the Mon Mothma speech and subsequent sort of like escape from the Senate is not top of my list. Cause that's just like exquisite television, but the Gorman massacre, which is something that we talked about last week is like, we were like, Hey, this is,

thing is coming. We were trying to be a little vague about it, but we're like, this thing is coming that is instrumental to the kicking off of the rebellion. And we've been asking all season, what is the thing, what is the tipping point that pushes people over from factional resistance or, hey, maybe should we think about doing something to widespread organized rebellion? And it is

A million little things, and we'll talk about those million... It's something that a bellhop says to Cassie Nandor. It's like a million tiny little drops, and then there's the tidal wave that is the Gorman Massacre followed by the Mons speech. And so to see it executed so well, to see it... I feel like I keep kicking dirt on the Battle of Jackson in The Last of Us, but I kept thinking about it because when you watch the Gorman Massacre...

which is and isn't a battle episode, but it is basically a battle episode. It contains all those like mini narratives that I was talking about feeling like we were missing from the battle. We were just following so many little stories that,

that interlock that we care so much about and we care on either side. This is something that, you know, Weiss and Betty, if we talk about the ideal scenario on Game of Thrones is we care about people on both sides of a skirmish. So we don't know if we're rooting for Daenerys on her dragon or Jaime on his horse and they're at, in conflict with each other, you know? And so, um,

Obviously, we're not rooting for the Empire, but we are emotionally invested in Cyril Karn. We're emotionally invested in Dejah Miro. And so we care about them. We care about the loan agents who are bouncing around. And then we care about the Gorman resistance who we've spent

a bit of the season with and we can identify an NZ. So when her body goes flying through the air and she just absolutely cracks on the ground, like I'm invested in that character. Absolutely. So it's not just... The shriek from Dylan. Yeah, exactly. It's not just bodies being mowed down. We have spent time and we... And they're in relationship with each other. You have a great point to make about that. And we care about all this sort of stuff. And then, so there's all of that executed perfectly. And then I just think...

that Cyril Karn is like one of the best characters that has ever existed on television. And I think it is so wild to me that, and we identified him in season one as someone we were like, why do we care so much about Cyril Karn? Like, you know, he's making all these, he's, he's an antagonist to our hero. He is making all these decisions we don't support or agree with, but like he is drawn so complexly in a way that I just like,

think is so compelling and i have it's a tragedy oh yeah while all the while i am not rooting for him and for him to have this sort of like abortive redemption arc and then this absolutely gut-wrenching but it doesn't matter at all and that's his greatest fear death

is, I will be thinking about that forever. So I just, I think on a big scale, having to deliver on the Gorman massacre as this rebellion shaking moment, and then on the personal scale, and this is like, you know, Ben's headline in his recap of like how personal this big conflict has become. And isn't that the point of these stories we tell is,

to make it so personal for Cassian, for Will, for all these people and for freaking Cyril Carnadendromero. I mean, like that's just masterful storytelling. So I am, my, my brother-in-law called me this morning to talk to me about politics. And he's like just having an existential morning about politics. And then we just wound up talking about Andor for, you know, as, as like a text of our time to like,

help us navigate and understand how we're feeling or what we should do. Um, and that we're so lucky to have that anyway. So that's my, that's probably, we have so much to get to. That was probably longer than it should have been. Mallory, what do you want to say in this sort of space?

Oh, a text of our time irrefutably. And as you know, Gilroy keeps saying a text of all time as well. And the show's ability to feel so... That's what I told my brother-in-law. He was talking about something. I was like, you know, bizarrely, I've been studying global and historical acts of resistance for my day job.

That's what I've been doing. I've been watching various documentaries. Anyway, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, well, you're just like Tony Gilroy, right? He's like, I've been studying up on all of this and when will I get to use it? I mean, I don't know if he said that in multiple interviews, but I think he was talking to Screen Rant, the clip that I saw where he's just basically said this is like a lifetime of being fascinated by revolution and rebellion. And I put it all in here. And like how lucky we are to get to...

experience someone's lifetime fascination brought exquisitely to life. Okay, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I agree. And like, I think that, you know, has been part of the masterstroke of Andor the entire way, but this arc in particular and this season in particular, the way that it feels so completely...

urgent right now and also uh eternal is just incomparable i these are my favorite three episodes of the show to date a show that i love and think has a number of arcs that you could make a very compelling argument are the best arc of the show this was like i i just honestly like couldn't

breathe watching most of this. I mean, I thought episode seven was like really good, but episodes eight and nine were astonishing. And I think that like episode nine, I agree with you in most seasons of most shows is the thing you talk about forever. And I do think people will be talking about it forever, but episode eight to me is like,

in the running for best hour of Star Wars ever made, period. Like, it's, I just, it's... I mean, like, I think what's great about Andorra as a TV show is I don't think you can isolate it. Right. It's not like when we talk about the Bill and Frank episode of The Last of Us or whatever, you just sort of, like, vacuum seal around that episode. Like, you need the seven episodes

Yeah. Episode seven set up, you actually need the four, five, six set up to make episode eight hit the way that it does. Yeah, I think it's been really interesting to hear, like, Chris and Andy have been talking about this on The Watch, like, this idea that Andor season two is being positioned as a movie every week and, you know, how that feels because of the three episodes in a row that we watch and the tight focus of a year passes and then we spend time in three days, that it does feel, and also just this stretch in particular, like, felt so, um,

cinematic and grand. But it is, without question, television. And part of what has been so rewarding about it is the way that our investment and time spent with the characters has allowed us to feel as deeply emotionally invested as we are to this point. I just thought this was exquisite. I mean, obviously, we'll talk about all of the themes, the idea of the messenger, the cost of the murder of truth and

all of it as we go today. There's just so much to break down, but I really thought this was exceptional. And like, I, you know, we, you and I share a tradition in our respective households of watching Lord of the Rings every year. It's like, we,

we know the holidays come around we're gonna watch lord of the rings it's like a part of the fabric of the year and like the rhythm of our lives and you know one of the things that adam and i've been talking about is it's i think andor has to be that for us moving forward she's got to be a part of every year like i don't i just so good and i can't uh imagine not wanting to keep returning to it so i just like have loved it and i thought these episodes were incredible

Do you want to make it part of like a holiday tradition or is it like, should it be spaced out more than we, yeah, I know. Probably not. Like May should be like a hopeful spring sort of thing because rebellions are built on hope or something like that. Like it's cause it's 24 hours. That's, that's the difference. Not that the, you know, the,

The extended cuts of Lord of the Rings, that's like, I think, 13 hours thereabouts. But like, yeah, 24 hours. I think it's got to be split over two days, right? You can't.

obviously for sure yeah hours maybe even like a couple weeks it becomes a moment in the year that you look forward to but yeah I just I can't wait to finish the show yeah and then part of like we've been texting about with Chris is you know the despair that it's ending but also and I you know we talk about this a lot with a lot of the stories that we love like and I genuinely do believe that being a part of the reason I spent so much time revisiting the stories that I love is because then it's like they never ended and when you return to a world that you that that meant so much to you it's like one of the great gifts of of

storytelling, of reading, of viewing, whatever the case may be, of playing. And, you know, because of and or in a vacuum and how beautifully realized and rendered the story is, and then also the way that it connects to and enhances our overall experience inside of Star Wars. Like, it's just, it is genuinely such a gift. I love it. I can't wait to see how the story concludes. And I can't wait to talk about every aspect of these three episodes with you today. I have no idea. I'm not, sometimes we're like, oh, you know, we'll aim for this time. I don't know.

It's possible that when the three-part finale drops next Tuesday night, we'll still be here potting about these episodes. I'm not making a prediction on the time, but we'll see. Get hydrated, everyone. Here we go. This episode is brought to you by Viori.

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Let's dive deep. Okay, Jo. Let's begin on Yavin 4. We're at the Rebel base where our beloved Wilma has returned. Wilma. With a mission. How interesting. Like, we've talked a little bit about this already. Your Kleas, your Lonnies, your Wills of Season 1 sort of being drawn into the Four in Season 2. I also like that along with the Ferex, we get the Ferex...

a clang for passage of time. And then we get insects. Like we're, we're in, we're in the jungle. Like it's nature. Nature is healing and nature is contrast to the corruption of Coruscant, the industrial corruption of Coruscant, et cetera. I think that's really, yes. The barricades, the tech. We talked about,

in the first arc about seeing the troopers walk through the rye on Mirarao and how it like felt like an interesting evolution of the troopers moving through the crystalline waters of Scarif and the, something about heightening the already so sinister nature of what the empire looks like and how it feels and what it does when you see it invade this space that like where it does not belong. And so like, not only to be on Yavin and this, in this,

on this forest moon, but to be in a setting like... So basically, like, sprawling treehouse where Ben Picks and Cassian have made a little life. It's giving Swiss Family Robinson and I'm here for it. Oh, man. I love it. One of the cool things about just this opening stretch of these episodes, when we realize we are on Yavin, is that...

As the show has very effectively done across this season, we can feel how things have changed without spending time on how they have changed. We can feel how close we are to Rogue One.

to a new hope because there is so much going on here. It is a buzz with activity. There are more people, but there is also like, we're going to hear a Vell say shortly to Bix building a real army. They're talking about checking in with your duty officer, getting your medical clearance. Like there has been an evolution of the formality of this thing, even before we get to Bond's declaration and that next then, uh, uh, uh,

catalyst in the formal declaration and cementing of the rebellion inside of this little treehouse our guy cassie nandor is rotating the shoulder before blaster burn that won't heal before we see him yeah after we hear insects buzzing yeah did you think cassian groaning and i wanted to ask you mallory rubin what were you hoping for

I was hoping for a sex scene. I was hoping for a sex scene, as I often am. And I will say, though, we basically get one. I mean, the... The salve is out. We're salving women. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The chemistry between these two remains electric. I thought, again, like, much like...

The soldier who Bix is seeing at the beginning of the previous arc with this blaster burn on Cassian's shoulder, like, we didn't see how it happened. We don't know all of the particulars of that mission, and we don't need to. The thing that we understand is where our characters are as a result of all the things that we have and have not seen, where that has put... I think in many cases, I agree with you, and I would say there's, like, a few spots where...

I mean, we're always wishing for more time with this story, obviously, but there's just a few spots where I was like, if we'd had a little bit more track delay here, it could have been even better. Agree. I will spoil that I could have used more time with Erskine and Mon. 100%. Erskine should have been a character in season one. You know what I mean? I think if they were to do season one over again, Erskine would have been at Mon's side. We just saw so much of Mon at home rather than Mon at work that we weren't getting Erskine time. And now not even a...

A note for Perrin. I won't be back. Bye. Should I visit my daughter after her honeymoon? I'm good. I want to be back. Enjoy all the cocktails you want. Are we going to see Perrin again? Who are we going to see sooner? B2 or B2emo or Perrin? I've sort of resigned myself to the fact that we might not see B again, though. I hope that Bix makes contact with

And that B is then brought to her wherever she has chosen to settle. Okay. So... That's my dream and my wish. Do you think we'll see Bix again? Do you think we would see B again?

I don't actually think it, but I'm daring to dream because rebellions are built on hope. I have this kind of painful forecast in my head of us seeing Vix finding out what basically happens on Scarif in some way. I honestly don't know if I can handle that, but maybe not. Maybe this was the last time we will ever see Vix. It's entirely possible. Will we see Perrin? I hope so. Absolutely. Yeah.

I love our time with Perrin, as you know. I'm a maniac. Blaster burn. Bix comes out. She's like, take off your shirt. Plies a salve. Tells him to relax. He's wincing. Men, you know, they're such babies. Then they flirt. What are you going to do? Anything I want. And they're clearly about to fuck. And then Will arrives at cock block o'clock. Hope he gets his pal. Their teenage son, Will. Yeah.

But here's the thing about Will. And we're going to talk about Will and Drina across this episode. We saw Will and Bela in the first arc. Like, Will has a girl in every port, you know? And so he's like, I know what's happening here. I am happy to return later. Despite the urgent peril of the mission that I am here to impart, let me know if you guys want me to come back. On the one hand, you say a girl in every port, like he's not loyal. But I feel like in both cases...

perhaps ill-advisedly, Will's like, I'm staying. He got attached. Yeah. I'm not just leaving. I'm not just going to fuck off like Mon did with not even nary a text to Perrin. I gotta go say goodbye. I gotta find them, you know? When he is with each of them, it's the only thing in the world to him. Yeah. But as soon as it's not a part of his life anymore, he's like, I will fall in love again. It's been two years since Bela, right? Frankly, I feel cheated now out of seeing who Will fucked. After Rhydo huffing? After Rhydo huffing.

Huffing after huffing. Righto. It might have been Saw. And so there we go. Oh, man. They all embrace. The three of them are so happy to see each other. The affection for each other. This pharynx bond beautifully incorporated throughout these three episodes. Cassian's like, where have you been?

Really push in. I love that Will was kind of doing the Greg Gary this and that from White Lotus season three. He's like, here and there. Here and there. Yeah, I know where here is. Like, where's there? Something I love about the Ferex, the Ferex three, or the Ferex four, if we count B2emo, which we should. Like,

Bix had a relationship with Will's dad. Mm-hmm. But, like... And Will, to a certain degree. Yep. But you never got the sense that, like... Like, Will and Cassian didn't really have a relationship on Ferex. Ferex is a small town. But it's not like... It's not like he was... Like, Brasso and Cassian had a close relationship. But it's, like, since then, because they are...

For Rixie and brothers together, you know what I mean? The stone in the sky or the genuine anguish that Cassian has leaving him behind on Gorman, it's like that's a bond formed in exile together of we remember where we came from together. I love that. We remember what we loved and we remember what we lost and we know...

Why we can't let it happen, what we're fighting for. Anywhere else. It's really been beautiful. I thought the moment on Gorman when Cassian, the way that he gripped the back of Will's head and just said, please. They have both lost so much. The idea of losing then that shared understanding, the few people who there is still that deeply rooted connection to would be unbearable, which of course makes what...

Happens with Biggs. Frankly too painful to confront. I'm not sure how I'm going to get through that part of the podcast. Speaking of Biggs, when I first saw her here on Yavin, all of the styling that we see is so 70s. They're like so, you know, especially like the force healer. Like we're really trying to step in closer to a new hope feeling like a direct, you know, like, cause like,

Rogue One, kind of, in the shape of Mon. But this is really sort of connecting us stylistically in the wardrobe sense to A New Hope. And Bakes almost felt like she was Endor Leia-styled slightly. You know what I mean? With her hair down, but the braids and stuff like that. I was just like... Interesting. It just...

Jungle paradise. Forest paradise. We love a forest planet. Oh, I love that. I did not think that, but frankly, if I'm being honest, it's probably because I was spending most of the scene waiting for them to take their clothes off rather than studying what they were wearing. She has this tunic over along. It's just very... I mean, she's still in pants. She's not in a gown or whatever, but it just felt very Leia-coded to me to a certain degree. Interesting. Fascinating. I could be wrong.

But maybe I'm not. Next. I'm sure. I don't think you're wrong. It's a wonderful observation. Luthen. Yeah. Wants to know if Cass is ready to work. Cass is like, if he does, I'm hurting. It's because you told him.

I love that. It's never peaceful for long. Great little touch. Luthan wants to know, Will says, if you can count on them. Now, this was great because Bix says, well, Luthan's not making it easy. And then Will kind of fires back like, well, this whole thing, this place you are, the people you're with, that's not what we're about. He says, all these people, new faces every day. And then he makes this comparison to the way Luthan works, right? Action. So

to what's happening here at Yavin, Will says, all we do here is get ready. I thought, especially for like a place in Star Wars that is like, uh, uh,

held in such regard and esteem as this central location and consequential location. This was kind of like a fascinating way to contrast it to, you know, and in so many ways, this is like the pursuit of Andor, right? What is happening elsewhere? What is happening in the shadows? What is happening that leads to what ends up happening above Yavin in A New Hope? I think also this idea of like,

and joint, like, you know, casting's like, we're part of an army now. Like, have you checked in? Have you checked in? Have you checked in? Like, check in. This is what we do here. Even though he's like, but I take off in a ship anytime I want. Fuck off, Draven. But, like, I think that, like, this idea of, obviously,

obviously the idea of joining, which is the story of Andor. What does it take to get Cassian Andor to join, really full-throatedly join the rebellion? He tries to quit once again in this arc of stories, right? Yes. So joining. It's a story of Jyn Erso joining, right? But like this idea of, to your point, what you've been saying about like cohesion and sort of size and scale of the group. And so it's like Luth in... Yeah.

works in the shadows and Luthan works by isolating everyone and holding all the information and just sort of like, these are his as well as like, we're not his puppets anymore. Like he's got his puppets on a string, but he's the only one who gets to know everything that's going on. Right. Mon is one of his op, like he's one of his cohorts, his operatives who is sort of great. And he's got Erskine,

spying on her also, you know? So he's like, he's isolating, he's pitting people against each other, as you noted, sort of with Bix and Cassian in the last arc and stuff like that. And there's a time for that, perhaps, but that time has passed. We are in a new era here where it's all about

community gathering, sharing, combining forces, common cause. The coalition building has started in earnest and Luthien, as he says by his own admission, doesn't belong in that phase of rebellion. And I think what's interesting about the way in which these episodes are shot is we have so many shots inside of this arc of Imperial forces fighting

by them dead by herself part of guys by himself zero by himself like this isolation uh cold isolation versus the warmth and nature and community of yavin i think is like just a fascinating visual uh contrast that we get throughout this arc

Yeah, for sure. I thought it was really interesting in the no Yavin for me stretch later with Luthan, like a couple things. One, I think the fact that with everything happening at the Senate with Mon and sending Cassian in and what's happened with Erskine, like Luthan has to confront, says like, none of these people trust me, you know, has to confront the fact that the Veritas, to stick with one of the emails we got last week and the analogy from last week, like the people who are running each leg of the relay for me,

they don't want me like to necessarily be the coach. Like he has to kind of stare that in the face in that moment. And I thought the evolution of Luthan's relationship to this idea to like having to stare in the face, what his role in the coalition building is when he was like the one who sat across from Saw in season one and basically implored him to stop,

standing off to the side to stop listing off all of the different factions of the rebellion and instead unite. But now in the moment where that is actually happening, Luthan does not feel like he can be a part of it. So that's just yet, like yet another thing that makes his character so fascinating. Yeah.

to watch. And just like Tony Gilroy as a student, a scholar of rebellion, understanding that there are different phases of rebellion and there's a time for Luthan and then there's a time for Draven. Like there's a time for different kinds of leadership. There's a time for Mon Mothma to be working inside the Senate and there's a time for her to leave and, you know, start wearing tunics and her hair different, you know? So it's like, you've been waiting for the shift to bangs the whole season. So close now. We're so close now.

Oh, man. Yeah, I just think that's really... I think that's fascinating. You know, a sunrise I'll never see. Like, a save the Shire, but not for me, right? I don't even get to go to Yavin. I don't even get that far. Yeah, and he's always known that that was how it was going to go, which is, again, part of the extreme heroism and bravery of what he has chosen to do. You know, I share my dreams with ghosts. Like,

He made the choice to do that so that everyone else could get here. I think on that point, the different phases, the different moments, like,

This has been another through line of this season, the shift from the fight to the win, right? Like we have decided to fight now for characters, you know, like Cassian, you have to kind of decide again and decide again. And that's part of his journey. But, you know, when Cassian says to Will here, like, well, we need an army. It's all a risk, which it is, of course, he's right. What do you want? Will, you want to fight or you want to win? Is this about, and Will will say, like, it's not about that.

when he tells them, hey, we got to go assassinate ISB supervisor Dejah Merrow. But this idea of like, this is about the win, this will be so central to how we process what we watch later when Bix makes the decision to leave Cassian so that he can fulfill this purpose because we heard Bix say last arc, like if it's a war like you say, right? We don't get to choose what we save. We don't get to choose what we lose. Maybe you do get to choose actually sometimes what you lose to try to save something else. But,

If we're going to do it, if we're going to fight, I want to win. This idea that it has to be worth it when you have given up all of this. Like, I don't know if we want to set a over-under for how many times today I will quote, what if I sacrifice everything? But it was just, I mean, there are so many moments from the prior history of the show that are top of mind. Nemec's manifesto, Marva's funeral hollow message, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But what do I sacrifice? Everything. I mean, every character confronts their version of that.

You know, the section of Luthan's speech that I was thinking about the most in this

arc is one we don't quote a lot because Cassian is frontline for so many historical events, right? Like the whole point of Rogue One is here's the untold story of the rebels who got the plans who we never talked about in A New Hope. We didn't say Jyn Erso or Cassian Andor once in

in A New Hope, right? The line that people know is, many Bothans die, which is just like a completely different thing altogether. You know what I mean? So like, so the unsung heroes of the rebellion. And so the names we don't know of the rebellion and the important roles that they played. And so when Cassian dies,

executes the rescue of Mon Mothma from the Senate. Yeah. And it canonically, and we'll talk about this in more detail later, but canonically inside of Rebel's

it's the rebel crew, Gold Squadron or whatever, that like... And they talk about that inside of this, how, hey, for optics, we're going to do it differently. Your story. So you don't get any credit for this. And so the line from Luthan's speech is, the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude. Right? Like, I don't get to have...

I don't get to tell a showy, do a showy speech in the Senate that everyone will always remember. That's not my role. I'm going to do this thankless thing that no one will ever talk about until Tony Gilroy decides to make a TV show. Yeah.

I loved that. I love that one of the central missions of Andor and interests of Andor is the different forms that heroism can take and the different forms that rebellion can take. And on that front, one of my favorite moments of the three episodes was when Draven's like, you want to watch the speech in my office? And Cassian's like, I've heard her before. No one will ever know what I did, but I know what I did. Yeah.

And, like, that's what matters, and that's why Cassian's incredible, because he did all these things. Like, when Luthan... I mean, we're going to talk about the Force Healer shortly, but then when Luthan kind of has his connected moment to that, and basically talks about Cassian like he's a Nexus being, you know? It's like, history can't exist without you. Yeah. And he just kind of recaps all the key locations. Not to be...

Not to make like a shoddy analogy, but I was thinking of it as like Forrest Gump. When we watched the film Forrest Gump and Forrest Gump was like there for all these historical events throughout history. And I'm like, there's Cassian. Here he is again. You didn't know he was there at the Gore Massacre. You didn't know he was there when Mon Mothma gave her speech. Incredible comment with one notable difference, which is that Cassian...

He's not going to prematurely ejaculate the second his finger grazes a nipple. He's ready. Yeah. Wow. Shots fired at poor Forrest Gump. Poor Forrest Gump. American hero. Great film. Great film.

When Cass learns, when Will finally says where he's been, he's been all of these trips. We can tell this is like, this mystery has kind of been building. Where have you been? Not just this once, but all of these times. It's been in Gorman. It's like, I got a girlfriend. Yeah. I got a French girlfriend. She's French. There's a mission, but also, wait until I tell you about Andrena. And honestly, yeah.

Dude. Talk about like, yeah, I mean, people who are not touted across the history of Star Wars and then we see what they did. The Palma one broadcast. Holy fuck. I mean, oh my God. And that was Drina. Unbelievable. When Will hands over the data pad with Deirdre's face.

And they talk about Gorman first and like, we have all of the history behind it. It's being destroyed. And Cass says of Luthen, he must be thrilled, which was just such a like withering indictment of Luthen, who I actually like think was softened in a, in a necessary way in a couple spots in this episode. And we are shown that he, I think really does, you know, care about his people and got those beats as well. And that complexity and that brew is the Luthen story. Um,

But, you know, we're thinking here, of course, of the last arc, and if it goes up in flames, it will burn very brightly. I'm going to sit this one out. We know what Cassian thinks about this. We know what he thinks of Luthen being willing to, whether it's Aldani or Gorman or anywhere else, incite a response for the sake of the larger cause. We know that he tried to talk Luthen out of Gorman completely, and...

I thought the way that this all came together here, not only pulling in the history of the characters, but setting up the massacre to come in the next episode where, you know, Will says like, that's not what's happening. Not now. It says not now. So it's like, yeah, that was what was happening. Right. But not now. Now it's the empire. The empire has gone crazy. We need to kill Deirdre Mira. She destroyed Farrakh. She killed my father. You meaning Vix know her.

Dr. Gorst, the torment of Bix, Dedra hovering over her and Ferex in that chair, you're in my net. The worst thing you can do now is bore me. The way that Gorman is, the massacre of Gorman, the Gorman massacre is depicted in this stretch as one of the most consequential moments in the history of

the galaxy and the rebellion, but also the way that our characters converge through their personal ties and personal experiences. What did this person do to my father? What did this person do to you? What did this person do to the place we called home? The way that Will is like, she's hunting us and everyone we know. It's not about vengeance. It's about us.

It's about Farrick, Stone, and Skye to make it small, to make it intimate, to make it personal inside of this larger thing. And for us to understand all of that at once is just like brilliant storytelling. The tension of having Cassian there and have him do like a perimeter of the square as things are happening, having him realize what's happening before most other people understand what's happening. Yes.

And for him to, like, try to warn Will off, but also that's not why he's there. Right. And it's not his agenda, and it's almost, like, cover for what he has to do. And so, like, he's...

His focus, you know, will start spiring on stormtroopers as soon as he can. That's not Cassian's focus because he's there. So like that, that whole cat and mouse aspect of what will draw Deirdre out onto her balcony. And can he get the shot at the same time as this atrocity is happening? It's fascinating storytelling. And I think also what's so compelling about this is that it is both true. All of this is true.

Will is like, she came for our home. She came for you personally, Bix. She came for my dad. All of that's true. And it is also so clearly a little meal that Luthan has cooked up just for Will to say, here's the strings I'm going to pull on you, pup.

and here's the string you, my puppet, can now pull on Bix and Cassian. You know what I know? To go get the person who's after me. After me. You know who is most important to Cassian, we know, is Bix because Cassian made that dumbass move at the end of the last arc. And so he's like,

you know, she tortured Bix. You know? Right. I'm just saying. So if you want to take her out, it's not about me. It's not because she's hunting me, Axis. And we should say, and his intel will come in handy later as well, but this is Lonnie intel. Lonnie... Dude, yeah. Our...

super ginger coming through with all sorts of important information, you know? I love, again, it's like, you got to watch Andor really closely and it just is such a rewarding thing to watch in that way. The little like, oh, who's the plant? I mean, it's obviously immediate. We know who the plant is. It's very clear right away. But this like... Is it because she has Terminator face? Yes, honestly. It's like, so that's the evil one. Did you see that actress, the actress who plays, what she's talking about, the actress who plays

the ISB plant inside of Bail Organa's team, who just looks evil the moment you see her. Instantly. Beautiful and evil. Is married to the actor who played Plutie, the guy who worked for Saw and who got shot by Saw last arc. Yeah. And she said in her caption, she's like, I'm married to Plutie the cutie. Plutie the cutie is very good. Wow. That's incredible. Well, she went out...

very quickly getting caught making a ill-advised phone call in a supply closet and Plutie went out talking about primes. So, you know, we all have our journeys that we're on. Neither of them. They're both not very good spies. True. Correct. Yeah. But I just loved it. It's like Young's agent, right? Yeah. So...

How does Luth... We're like, oh, Luthen and Clea. I mean, yeah, Luthen's the spy, but how do they know that something's up in Bale's rescue crew? Lani. Of course. And for Lani's hand in events to be clear, even in an episode that he is not in, great stuff. Speaking of people who are not in episodes, Luthen's not in the first two episodes of this arc, right? I have some questions about how Luthen appears on Coruscant.

out there without his wig. Which obviously tells us something about where we are in the story and that everybody recognizes that this is a moment of change. This is a pivot point, but very notable. To be clear. And then we don't know where he is at the end. Clea says, get to the gallery, but then we hear he's safe, but that's it. We don't know where he is. I just want to make something really clear, guys.

On the wig watch with Joanna Robbins in front. Even when Luthan's not wearing his wig, Stellan is wearing a wig. There's a wig under that wig. I just need you guys all to know that. Okay, let's move on. Yeah. That's just important wig lore. It's a wig on a wig. That's all we're talking about here. Hat on a hat, wig on a wig. Yeah.

it's time to meet a force healer. Bix takes Cassian into the village. All of these people who are ailing in some way are lining up to see this force healer and Cassian's like, this is not for me. And let me tell you, Marva would have, would have something to say about this. I thought this was a great little, you know, scenes from a marriage moment. Cause he's like, Marva hated force healers. And Bix is like, she hated one who she met once. This is great. I love that. Um,

Cassian does not believe in this, right? And Bix says they wouldn't be faking something if it didn't work. And I thought that this was... If it never worked, yeah. If it never worked. And I thought this was...

Really fascinating as a way to not only prime us for the decision that Bix will make and how she responds to what unfolds between Cassian and the cook from the mess, all the foresailor in this scene, but also just more broadly, what Bix will say about Cassian's purpose later. These things that she has felt and sensed before. Bix's relationship to Faith. What that means to her. Because she's been having these dreams, that means...

She's like somewhat force sensitive, right? Is that what we would say? I think that that is at least an interpretation and here for us to consider. Yeah. Yeah. Or that Bix is not in any way force attuned and is trying to make sense of these things that she has experienced in some way. And that could be one of the ways that she did so. Regardless, it's like, you know,

What's faith, right? Like, faith is believing in something you can't see, you don't have proof about. And so, like, that's at this point in galactic history, right? Like, we know where we are with the Force. This long after Order 66, after the Inquisitor hunts, there are Force users out there, but they're few and far between.

I mean, more than we thought. More than we thought every time a new story comes out. But still. And like the forces, the idea of the force is like a whisper, right? It's not this like central, present, visible thing. And we can think of so many examples of this. Like, you know, one of the things that I love best about Rogue One is the relationship between Chirrut and Baze and like,

No Jedi here. Only dreamers like this fool. Every time our guy is like, I am one with the force and the force is with me. How do people talk about the force in A New Hope? Whether it's like Tarkin talking to Vader, the Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion. Or Han, a very different energy than Grand Moff Tarkin, also saying...

kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. Like, this is where we are with the force. Geeky religions, the mumbo jumbo. What I love about thinking about Chirrut, I love that. Thank you so much for taking us on that tour. Chirrut, who is one of my favorite parts of... Yeah, same. You know...

The pitch for Rogue One was, hey, we're going to do a Star Wars story without any Force in it, without any Jedi in it, et cetera. Vader wasn't supposed to be in it. We weren't supposed to have any lightsabers in it, whatever. Then they decided, they being Lucasfilm, decided to put some in. Okay, fine. But true to this, we're not doing Jedi, but here we've got this guy who can fight with this staff and...

instinctually here we have daredevil incredibly yes here we have daredevil exactly it's such a like fun way to keep the force inside of like a forceless story and I think that when he says would you trade that necklace for a glimpse of your future to Jin this idea of like

the force as, as like mystical, like crystal ball reading and which is, you know, this woman is a force healer, but what does she offer is like a glimpse of the future for Cassian, right? Like this is, I see your destiny. We'll talk about all of that in a second. And I think also later there's this moment in Rogue One that, you know, people are like, this is a little, this is, this feels a bit inconsistent and,

when they're in Saw's cage and Cassian's like, this is a first for me. You know, Trude and Baze are like, we've been in worse traps than this. And Cassian's like, this is a first for me. And all of us having watched Andor are like, what are you talking about, Cassian? You've been in jail so many times. But he says, you know, Trude's trying to talk about the Force and Cassian says, I'm beginning to think the Force and I have different priorities. Yeah. I love that. What...

Cassian's relationship as a skeptic across these stories is really interesting. Yeah. And in contrast to something like a guardian of the will, right? These not only keepers of belief, but keepers of story? Like messengers? And again, how that could take so many different forms and come in so many different shapes. How a guardian of the will or somebody like Cassian who's like,

what's up with all of this? Or if this is really for me, like are still ultimately part of the same pursuit, which is like, what is our role in history and how do we share that with each other? And then where does it lead us? Like, I just really, I really love that. This idea of like people who are force sensitive, force healers or force dreamers or whatever it is, like this idea of being able to see currents of the force, but not

clear directions or exact visions or whatever. This idea that when Chirrut is talking about basically in Eadu, which we hear about inside of these episodes, when Cassian goes out with his gun into the sniper position and Chirrut says the force moves darkly near a creature about to kill. This idea of like...

we can sense it swirling around a Cassian and, or he is like, you know, it's like midichlorians or no, he's got like the, the, the currents of destiny are just inevitably drawn to him and curling around him. And I just think that that is like what this woman says to him here, which we're about to talk about is just like so interesting. And it's so much more interesting to me personally than like a midichlorian Jesus idea. This, just this idea of like things are,

the events of history are drawn to you sort of as Luther was saying, like where you are the catalyst for these events of, of history is just a fascinating prospect. Yeah. I thought this was really interesting. I, my relationship to this sequence and these ideas, like this is probably what changed for me the most across watches because I,

When it was happening on my first watch, I was like, there was a little part of me that was like, oh, did we need it in Ariandor? Which I was kind of surprised by because I'm often actually like, I think, a defender of these decisions. But I ended up, I think, really liking how this was handled for exactly the reason that you're citing. So this Force healer comes over. She senses Cassian from across the yard.

is drawn to him, senses the wound, touches it, successfully heals it, as we will talk about. Yeah. So I think we should do a little power ranking. Who are the best Force healers? Like this mess hall cook, Grogu, Ben Solo, how are we ranking them? Everybody brings their own criteria to a Force healer power ranking. Curious for your thoughts. But like, she thanks him.

She is. He's the skeptic. Yeah. She is so moved by this experience and assured, right? She thanks him for what? The clarity, that feeling. It's been a very long time. And then later says, all that you've been gathering, the strength of spirit made me think of the strength of feeling in the serial sequence last week as a turn of phrase. Surely you must feel it. A couple of things like

I was going to ask why I know you, especially when we get into like the, who are you for Cyril Karn at the end of eight or I have friends everywhere. This like repeated phrase is just sort of like, how are we connected? Who's connected to who? What this idea of destiny. And yeah,

Also, when she heals him, we have this great email about what the score does here. But also before that, before we get to her healing, we hear drums, which again made me feel like we were on Endor. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like this idea of a mess hall and barracks and life. And I don't know what Cassian and Bix did to get that sweet tree house. But like, you know, things on Yavin are like,

There's community. There's coalition. There's community. There's sharing. There's sharing of food. There's sharing of music. This is what is happening inside of this. Also, we're preparing for all this other stuff. Were you looking for any members of the Maya Pay Brigade to see if they survived being eaten long enough to enjoy the... I think two members who survived that skirmish are thriving. Yeah, that sounds right. Okay, great.

Um, uh, our listener Charlie wrote in and said, um, about the score in Andor and the way in which the score in Andor throughout both seasons deals with the idea of tension and release. And so Charlie wrote basically everything the show is a held suspended or tense chord that resolves or releases into a more solid chord.

The theme of Andor is simply, is simply that if you listen to it, nothing flashy like John Williams would do. It is simple and tells a simple story, a story about, no disrespect to John Williams. Charlie speaks highly of John Williams elsewhere. Um, a story about movement from discomfort to comfort, from strangeness to the familiar from, you could argue oppression to freedom. The best example is the band from Marva's, uh,

processional, it's diegetic. I think it's the Mon Motha one. It's diegetic music in that case, but it's still tension release. In episodes seven through nine, the tension release chord, when Bix is explaining what happened with the Force healer is the Force theme chords. And there's no mistaking it.

There's a great podcast called The Soundtrack Show that explains this, but Williams used his actual music to tell stories. The Force theme has this building line that creates mystery and can face some kind of power. It plays behind Jedi using the Force, notably when Luke lifts the X-Wing from the swamp. I think it also plays behind Obi-Wan in the prequels in a few places. In this scene in Andor, it's just the first two chords. It's only mystery.

no mastery. The Force healer doesn't know what she's feeling and the music reinforces that idea in a really powerful way. The musical language of Star Wars is as important as the visual language or the lore masters keeping Canada in their heads. This show rules. This idea from Charlie of the idea of like taking the Force theme and taking the section of the Force theme that is mystery without the accompanying training that gives you mastery is... I'm so...

terrible at parsing these kinds of stories inside of, uh, score motifs and themes. So I really appreciate the bad babies whenever they write in about this, but that is just like brilliant to me. Like anytime, anytime a TV composer, because you have so much more space for music to come back and be reblended. So anytime, like, uh,

Rumi Javadi was like a master of this in Game of Thrones. Any times you blend one theme into another or something like that, it's just like chef's kiss. Amazing. I loved it. I did. I do not have the musical expertise to have been able to identify what Charlie has here. I think that's an incredible and very powerful insight. Just,

Being able to, as a more casual Star Wars score enthusiast, kind of feel that subtle shift into, okay,

actually this is happening. Yeah. Like, and Cassian might be denying it, but we can't because that we know like on a sensory level, what those notes are meant to invoke. I thought was great on the music front too. Like I loved, um, you know, you've been tracking across the season, the, the, uh, uh,

auditory pairing with the opening and or word mark and like how we got again in these episodes the theme and like the ferric's chime in episode seven and then in episode eight it's that like choral hymn and then in episode nine it's the gorman chant but kind of as like

a reverberating echo. A dirge. Yeah, this dirge and this echo across history I just thought was incredible. No detail missed in this show. That section that you just read when she says that clarity, that feeling, it's been a very long time, all that you've been gathering, the strength of spirit, surely you must feel it. So that feeling, that clarity, that faith. Faith is what we're talking about a lot when we talk about this. We talk about Bixx.

But like, what's the difference between faith and hope? Is there a difference? And is she talking about hope here? Like you are giving me hope. Absolutely. Like a key, of course. Yeah. But I like that she doesn't say it. She doesn't say, I feel like I have a new hope or something like that. You know what I mean? But it's just sort of like in the text there.

I liked it because like she basically saying that the other people will, they will come no matter what. Right. And so this idea that her crisis of belief has been a quiet and an internal one, that struggle, that lack of certainty and to have that rekindled much like hope can be, you know, that this thing that maybe she used to be able to channel more consistently, like to the, yeah, to the point of the, who are you versus like the, that,

that sense of who this person is across the, the, the yard and like the idea of the presence that Cassian has left in the force being the thing that she recognizes, like that ripple in the force that he creates and continues to create and then sends out those currents. Like,

that's the thing that she's feeling. And so then it's not just like a belief in him and the role that he has to play. It's a belief in the way that she understands how the energy between all things, like the way that she understands how things are connected, how people are connected, that they, we are all part of the living force together. And I thought that's why I ultimately ended up really loving this actually, because like, you know, Cassian's angry. He leaves. He's like, you can stay if you want. And Bix does. That's great. And, um,

asks the Force healer what she saw, and she says, I sense the weight of things, things I can't see. Pain, fear, need, familiar terms, certainly, when talking about the Force. Most beings carry the things that shape them. They carry the past. But some, very few, your pilot, they're gathering as they go. There's a purpose to it. He's a messenger. So this is the line that gives the episode its name, but also this

kind of cementing of a core understanding of who Cassian is. We think back to Melchie, who will return in these episodes, and Cassian parting on Neimos after escaping Narkeena, and Melchie imploring Cassian to spread the word of what had happened there. People have to know. It is what Will will say when they are saying goodbye on Gorman. People have to know. Like, this idea, time and again, that Cassian is a part of...

how the horrors across the galaxy and then also those kernels of hope will be communicated to people and that all of that for Cassian will culminate in a literal transmission, a message sent from Scarif. Like I just, I found this to be incredible. And like the idea that, you know, like I do, I do think Andor doesn't need the force. I still think that, but like,

That inside of the story about regular people doing extraordinary things, that's actually one of the most powerful ways to show us how the force would function is like really meaningful because we always hear like the force is the energy between all things and connects all things and anybody can tap into the force. And so I love the idea, first of all, of force.

a messenger as a very different type of messiah, hero, savior. But also then that Cassian does not have to be wielding the Force to be a part of the Force. He's not swinging a lightsaber. We're going to talk about this idea of destiny in a second that Gilroy has spoken about really interestingly this week. But like,

Is it even that the Force has chosen him? Well, not through, like, a high midichlorian count, right? But it's that his choices have caused those ripples in the Force, like, I think is really beautiful and kind of, like, very broom boy-y to me. Yeah. Like, in a way, I love. Anyone can be... Well, that's the thing about this story is, like, Cassian is special in his own way. Yes. But also, like...

There are a ton of Cassians inside of this rebellion. And there are Vels, too. And there are Bellhops who will give you taglines that will, you know, play again and again in Rogue One trailers. You know what I mean? Like, there's just, like... Exactly. There's a million Cassians everywhere. Is this particular Cassian more special than others? Perhaps. I mean, like, that's something that Luthan is alluding to, this idea of, like... Yes.

Did you have a choice? Or is there another hand here? There's another thing. On that language from the mess hall cook force healer. Yeah.

most beings carry the things that shape them. They carry the past, but some very few, your pilot, they're gathering as they go. There's a purpose to it. He's a messenger. What I thought was so interesting is like true. What church says to Cassian in rogue one is there's more than one sort of prison captain. I sense you carries yours with you. There's this idea that like, he can be both. He is both. Like he is, um,

He has these things that he carries. Thinking about Shout Out the Last of Us. But he has these wounds that he carries and these physical objects too. If he has Bix's blaster, if he carries Nemec's manifesto, if he has something of Marva's as well. There are literal things that Cassian carries. These little wounds that add up to this great big pile of destiny for him. Yeah. That he's carrying now.

the past with him and gathering momentum and speed and people gathering gin to him gathering um you know like k2s with him like gathering all these people around him melchi whoever it is uh they're all gonna be key uh to what's to come

Yeah, and I love how it works in all directions, right? It's like all of those things that Cassian carries from them, but then I loved the return of the blaster. That's when Vel holds it up and we're like, oh my god, it's Melchi because that's the corpo blaster that Cassian took from Cyril and then hid away on... It was on Aldani that Vel would recognize that he hid on Nemos and then that he gave to Melchi like...

The messages are moving in all directions. Cassian is carrying Marva's messages with him as he imparts all of these messages to other people, and I love that. And I agree. It's like, clearly, the show is saying here that Cassian has a destiny that is distinct, but also that...

And this is my personal read on it. And I think for me, like, you know, we always love to talk about like choice and destiny and how they are entwined. I think obviously so many of the stories that we consume orient around in some way, the idea of, of destiny and some sort of crucial figure. It's always the most interesting to me when that character makes the choices and decides to do the thing rather than feeling like they have to, or they're on some sort of, of tram line. I thought, um,

I think that Cassian's arc has really been like a masterclass in that respect, including in these episodes where, as you noted earlier, like he says, I'm done. He says it to Clea. He says it to Bix. And like, how do we build toward the point where in Rogue One, he will say like, I can't imagine walking away. On the one hand, every decision that he made got him to that. Yes. On the other hand, it's Bix's choice, Bix's decision that, that at

That's the final thrust, but then that connects. Yeah. But that's part of what I love about it. It's like, it's not just...

chosen one in isolation. It's like, it is that the Farrick stone in Sky. It is what happened on Mina Rao and Brazo not getting his stone. Like it's all of it. It's Bix leaving. It's all of the other people that they lost. Like it's the people that they don't want to have to lose again. And I think that Cassian couldn't be who he is without the people who have shaped him. And we feel that really with him every moment.

Can I go back to this extraordinary path that you've tracked for Cyril's Corpo Blaster that becomes Melchie's Corpo Blaster? It going from Aldani to Nemos to Melchie. When...

When Cassian shows up with the blaster and Aldani and Ski and our guy, Evan Masbacarac, is going through his stuff. And he says, whose is this? And Cassian says, didn't get a name. And that's Cyril Karn, who later he'll be like, who are you? Andor.

The best. The best. Didn't get a name, but he really seemed to care about the piping of his uniform. Yeah, his collar looked great. I think he should really grow his hair out a little bit and give it a beachy wave. And I think that's what he needs. Loving the waves. Here's what Tony Gilroy said to Decider about bringing the Force into Andor.

I think we knew we had to do something with it. We really wanted to touch on it. It would have been really just uncool to not do it, but how to do it. And then later he said,

Pulling together all these pieces and saying, oh my God, there's destiny here. The idea of reluctant destiny is really fascinating. You know, I mean, we have religions based on that. So that was the right moment. And then he adds even Lutheran starts to wonder what the hell's happening. I really was struck by, oh my, pulling all these pieces together, pieces and saying, oh my God, there's destiny here. That for the creators, like it's the same journey that Cassian himself is on, not just the reluctance, but the,

It's not you hear a prophecy when you're a child and you know you're on this path. It's that you start to see the shape of the thing as you live it or as you make it. Yeah. And I thought that was really fascinating. When he says, you know, we have religions based on that, like you can sort of weave a story of destiny around any kind of person if you decide to do it retroactively. Yeah.

Shout out Megan O'Keefe at Decider, who I think did a really good job asking Tony great questions this week in her interview with him. And yeah, I don't know. I guess I do feel complicated about the presence of the Force here, but I think it's such a light touch.

And I didn't hear Cassian say, I don't want it, but kind of. Oh, yeah. Her Johnstone energy is here. I liked when Bix went back and, you know, Cassian's moving a shoulder and she's like,

It's better, isn't it? And that must be confusing. First of all, iconic. But again, it makes us think of Rogue One and Trut and Baze. It bothers him because he knows it's possible. Like, what does it mean when you do have to confront the truth of the thing that you are not necessarily ready or inclined to believe in? I love that. I thought that was great. And this is where she tells him, like, I've felt it before. I'm not afraid to say it. What if it's important? She tells him it can only be good.

Which I thought was like a fascinating little moment given the pain that awaits for these people and how not true that could be. Well, I wonder if he's thinking about that. Okay, so like what is Cassian Andor thinking about when he embraces Jyn Erso knowing they're about to die? The doom of Valeria. I guess I'll never see Figs again is one of them. I guess I'll, you know, I guess I'll never see

be again you know etc but like uh hopefully he squeezes in a goodbye um but that this is a good thing it can only be good is he thinking about something that bick said to him in in the end there you know i don't know i hope so it's a nice thing to think about it's a nice way to ease some of our sorrow because this is also deeply sad but also deeply inspiring what a story cast is like all right i'll go to gorman after all he and will are prepping to depart

The Rogue One ties continue. Draven's here. This is where he says, like, and again, we can just think, okay, Alliance intelligence, this is getting serious. We see the shape of this thing that's building and he's like, you know,

Uh, this isn't going to work. Not a base for privateers. Loved that. Those who enjoy the securities of Yavin must proclaim their loyalties. I thought hearing from Cassian, even as you noted on the heels of him kind of pitching Will, I'm like, just like go check in, do the thing. Don't push too hard. You know where I stand. The day I need permission to come and go, I'm gone. Very nice little tie to obviously everything that's going to happen in Rogue One. And just in general, Cassian has joined.

has participated, has shaped all of these events, but in his way, in his way, the whole time. Never was a good, a good, a good soldiers follow orders guy ever. And I love that about him. So Draven, who if, if folks didn't rewatch Rogue One is obviously in, in,

Rogue One, Alistair, uh, Petrie, who is one of the best, most British names ever. Um, we did get an email from a listener, Matt, who is a fan of sex education, which, um, Alistair Petrie started on and he said, don't worry. Headmaster Groff is here to kill everyone's boner, which is like sort of his role on that show. He's great on that show. But, um,

It's interesting to think about who did they call and who they didn't call, right? Ben Daniels isn't here, but Draven's here. And that connection to... Donna gets a shout out. Yeah, that connection to the team at Rogue One is very important. Also, I was thinking a lot about our discussions of the social contract that we had when we were talking about The Last of Us, when he says those who enjoy the securities of Yavin must proclaim their loyalties. What do you give up

for the protection that Yavin provides. And Cassian's like, nothing. She's like, I don't give a fuck. It's a private trip. I have vacation days. I do what I want. What am I going to do? Whatever I want, in the words of my girlfriend, Vex, or my wife, it's unclear. Gosh.

Oh, man. I loved the little sequence of Cassian and Will approaching Gorman and Cassian fucking with Will a little bit, looking at him to the side. Will's like, oh! Going low. Going low, right? Great stuff. Very Han-esque, not just pilot, but smuggler rogue spirit from Cassian across the stretch here. Loved it. Also, that's a funny sequence. But I was thinking about when watching Cassian...

I mean, take in the horror of what's going around him at Gorman, but also stay clear on his purpose. Yeah. And thinking about Cassian as a person who's like, you know, in Scarif, there's like a massacre happening in Scarif. And he's like, what's my purpose? What am I here to do? What's my clarity of purpose here? You're my mission. Change in mission for Vel. When Cassian departs, Vel goes to visit Bix and says, no more smuggling. I needed a break.

Bix says, it's good to hear you say that. And Vel says, I was getting reckless. So reckless, we can presume, after having lost Cinta, what did that do to Vel? Where did it lead her, that pain? And also just a little bit of clarity here from Bix. You know, you asked a question last episode, like, where did we think we'd find Bix on her healing journey? And Bix,

We do have a couple moments, you know, in this stretch where, whether it's this conversation with Fel here or elsewhere, where Bix is saying to Cassie and like, if I were in pain, like I would do whatever I had to to try to fix that. Where we get little insights into how Bix is thinking currently on her arc about like self-care. Right. Does shooting Gorse in the head mean I'm...

and I'm shooting, we had an email about this, I will read later, which I think is like a justifiable slight critique, but like,

Am I back on shooting missions or am I going to Yavin Trader Joe's every day and just hanging out and making tea? Is that what I'm going to do? Also reminded me of the Vel and... I want some of that tea. I want some of that tea, dude. Cassian slept right through this goodbye message. She's like, we need some of that. She put some extra in his tea. No question. Vel and Mon's discussion during that wedding hike...

Again, I simply wouldn't hike during a wedding, but the wedding hike, this idea of like, hey, we have to live while we... You can't pour from an empty cup. You got to live a little bit during a rebellion. So, Vel, you can just do what you want to do, which is yell at new recruits, and that will just sort of fill you with joy and spirit, but also enjoy the drum circle at the mess tent in Yavin. It's pretty cool here. It made me so sad to be thinking back to that Vel and Mon moment and that idea, because like...

Vixen Cassian can't have that at the end here. And that makes me really sad. Why is Vel here? She's here because Draven and Dodonna are like, yeah, you gotta... What's going on, Cassian? Like, we really want to promote this guy, but he keeps just leaving and making us tell him it's not a base for privateers. He's captain by the time Rogue One happens, so let's talk about his promotion. How are we going to make that happen? We need to get him the title of captain. How are we going to make that happen? Don't they call him...

at the end of this arc? Do they? I think the kid who's, I can't remember exactly when it was, but I think the kid who's, I would have to go back and look. Someone I think calls him, screams at him, Captain Andor at one point. But then I was like, how did we? Did you feel like he got promoted in this 24 hour period, like after Gorman, after he came back and he was like, see, I told you I was going to bring this shit back. And he's like, aye aye, Captain. Maybe, maybe. Maybe they wanted to promote him to a major and it never happened. Yeah, Colonel. I don't know.

Could be. Great question. Oh, man. This is where you mentioned when Vel says they're no longer Luthens puppets. Fascinating to think about Vel and the choice she has made for herself to extricate herself from that circumstance. They need Cassian to embrace, Vel says, that he is a leader now. Yeah.

Think back to the last arc. You're thinking small, Luthen said. You're thinking like a thief. I'm thinking like a soldier. Think like a leader. Continually interesting for us to compare how other people talk about Cassian and see him and how he talks about and thinks about and sees himself, whether it's pilot, thief, soldier, leader, or just a person walking around the base versus messenger destiny. As we continue to track...

mirror watch. It's good old Cass who's looking at himself, who's looking at the star in the mirror inside of this episode. Who am I? Soldier, pilot, leader, force, destiny being. These are all great questions. I have no easy answers. Should we go to Gorman? We will return to Yavin later, but it is time to head to Gorman. Where's Cyril?

is making his way to Dedra for the first of more than one harrowing encounter. When we return, we get, this is like a recurring motif across these episodes, these little snippets of the Imperial news broadcasts and the different news footage that we hear and we see. This machine, this propaganda machine in full swing. One of the lines that we'll repeat

Pete is continued and inexplicable Gorman resistance to Imperial norms. We hear that the firebombing the night before is an act of terrorism. We can see before we even really get into unfolding it, that the empire has shifted its tactic from inciting the rebel activity to staging these attacks and blaming them on the rebels as the pathway into the thing they need to ultimately do. The couple things, the, I was thinking about like,

The propaganda about the Gorman people is, you know, aren't they like spiders spinning their web? But like the web spinners, the spiders is the propaganda network that like they're out here spinning their lies and weaving their little propaganda messages to send out into the world. And again, to your point about like,

the messenger and transmission that you track so beautifully across um all of these stories um nemics manifesto marva trying to get the message out like how do we get the message out and how do we get the message how do we get a message out that can cut through the counter messaging that is coming from the imperial apparatus and that is something that um

I've been thinking about a lot in terms of in this, you know, Tony Gilroy is telling a story for all time, but he is also telling a story for our time. And in our time, when thinking about other instances of rebellion, state-controlled media, but how right now we as consumers of media are

are just drowning in noise and information and misinformation in a way that is never before seen in human history. We've never had this much access to these, these many narratives and conflicting narratives, um, at our fingertips at all times. It's,

Really chilling to think about how does one cut through misinformation in an ocean of it that we are currently dealing with. And that the people in position of power and visibility are the ones saying fake news and that the truth is not real. And the ones who are shattering, seeking to shatter and destroy the very idea of truth. Yeah, it's just like, I mean...

This is just... It was impossible to not be thinking about. And then also the...

really beautiful echo of watching Cyril making his way downtown to work again. We've already, we saw him do that long walk in our intro to Gorman. And here we're watching him again, not as, not as long a walk, but watching, watching the Imperial presence, right. The, you know, the, the black uniformed troopers, not to mention the storm troopers out and about. But, but,

Also, just how ugly the barricades are that they have up in the plaza that they will then move in front of the Imperial building. But like...

in contrast to the elegant stone beauty of Gorman and of Palma, like to have these just ugly intrusions. You know, things will get much worse than an ugly barricade, but like it's starting already here. Yeah, it's a harbinger. Yeah. How disrespectful to the harmonious beauty of this place these little...

of the Empire, or not even little touches, right? The fist is closing in tight, and this is exactly, of course, what Luthen wants. So, yeah. Oh, boy. Dedra's on a call with Pardigast. He's like, Krennic's with Palpy right now. The moment has come. There is no substitute for the Kalkite. They need to take the planet. This is where he mentions Eadu. We think, of course, of Galen Erso. This is the base that he was working on in Rogue One. Pardigast says, I don't know the science, but it's bad luck, Gormin.

We need what's in the ground when we're finished. There won't be much left to call home. I thought, I don't know the science, but it's a bad luck. Gorman was one of the more effective displays of the just sickeningly casual nature of the evil at work here. Right. The, um,

Got one call and I'm going to make one quick call and a couple lines to order the decimation of a people at a place. Bad luck, Gorman. Bad luck, Gorman. The fleet's 48 hours away. They need the Marshall domain now. Captain Kato's bringing a variety of personnel to help manage the situation, a.k.a. A bunch of children. Green boys to offer up for the slaughter who can't even keep their visors up. Yep.

Dedra reminds him that the insurgents have weapons now. Of course, we know how they got them last arc. And Partagas says, we're counting on it. This is all so deeply upsetting before the thing even happens because they are, of course, executing the thing that they always intended to do. And Partagas, because we see that this is affecting Dedra, but he says to her,

you know, this is going to secure the ISVs placed by Palpatine's side, by the emperor's side. Let the image of professional ascendance settle your nerves, which is basically, I mean, she will invoke the idea of promotion, um,

to challenge Cyril's challenge to her later. You didn't seem to mind all the promotions, but it's the same idea here, right? Whether it's the carrot or the stick, it's like, do you make your peace with the horrors you are helping to perpetrate because they benefit you personally? And this has been the way that Partagast has

mentored her from the jump, right? Like back in season one when she was fighting with Blevyn and he was like, this is what you need to be prepared for. This is what you need to do. And when she got the Gorman assignment and didn't want it, not because of any moral objection, but because she wanted to stay on Axis, but he said, Gorman is a gift.

Take it, then win it. And that is still the pitch he's making to her here at the end. Gorman is a gift. To think of that, what we are about to witness, how other people on the other side are talking about it as a thing to covet and seek. A bullet point that you can put on your CV. Yeah, exactly. Right? It's hideous. Engineered the Gorman massacre. That was me. Yeah. Everyone who matters knows what you did is the thing he says to her. The thing I love about this in terms of him...

you know, let the image of professional ascendant settle your nerves is just incredible writing. Um, another great party line, but like, um, the way in which he is categorizing this as professional ascendance, while at the same time, you mentioned this elsewhere in our notes, but like throughout undermining her, um,

Anytime she raises an objection, he basically calls her hysterical, right? Yeah. Dedra, calmly. Yeah. You seem animated. Yeah. Disgusting. But he's done this from the jump, right? Like, we talked about this in season one about how he was sort of leveraging, like,

the one non-white employee in the room, Blevyn, who is gone, we don't know what happened to him, versus like the one woman in the room or like the two people that he was sort of like pitting against each other inside of these meetings. This way in which the Empire is using these slight, small, tiny... Dedra tries to make herself as conformist as possible, but she's a woman inside of this all-male organization. So he's like...

you know, you're, you're, you're on the climb, right? You're working your way up, up the ladder, but also I've sent this guy and he's going to belittle you and he's going to like take over your mission and not keep you in the loop on things. And, and then she sort of, when Cyril comes to her with the same complaints of like, I'm not in the loop, what's going on, you know, it's just like, she's just to your point, like,

echoing the same lines down the ladder to him so it's uh and the fact that they made it personal the fact that they real trauma cycle there yeah yeah exactly the fact that they made cyril and desira romantically involved and not only that but like gave us in the first arc gave us like desira being a hero for cyril against edie you know what i mean like

showed that their connections matter to each other. Yeah. Which makes this all so much more painful. So good. So delicious. All right. Really, really, really, really great. Cyril, with that new wavy hair that we're loving. Do you think Deja likes it? Something to grip? I do. Yeah. I do think. Yeah. I mean, you got to hold on to something in the dark once you've turned out the lights, you know?

Get leveraged in order to drive the heel of your shoe into his thigh. Exactly. Okay, great. Exactly, yeah. It did really feel like the long hair was like, you know, connected to what we talked about last week. Cyril definitely is like, Gorman, this actually is. Oh. This is the place for me, right? Yeah, Trey French. How continental of him. Yeah.

Exactly. Oh, man. Searching for Deirdre, and he's very heated, like animated. If Partigas were here, he doesn't just say it to women. He would have told Cyril to animate it. Confronts her about the bombing, the rumors. Now, Partigas, last arc, we talked about this at length last week, said to Deirdre, just a reminder, you can't tell him anything. You got to keep him in the dark. Can't know what this is really about. So...

she's still sticking with that here. Says there's evidence of outside agitators using the line, the lie, to try to handle him here one more time. Are you serious? He says, that's what I came here for. And then he's like, you're going to make me beg for evidence of it? And this woman

One of the things we talked about last week was like, if the moment comes where Deirdre has to make the choice between the job or this person that she has this actual connection to, what will she pick? What will that choice look like? And you can just see and feel that these decisions in real time are backfiring, that she is losing him, but she's staying the course in this scene, in this conversation, at least. And I thought the moment when he's pushing and she switches into like,

whisper mode, like imploring him, please go pack, be ready to leave. Like later at the end, she'll, she'll sort of say in a more like fully charged way, do what I say, right? Like issuing an order. But here there's this, this personal plea, like,

We can still do this thing together. And she says, good things are waiting for us. We'll be out of here soon. We'll be back in Coruscant. We'll be together. We'll be rewarded. And he says, for what? For what? And I was thinking about Marva so much across these episodes, but this was really one of the moments because like just that core idea of what is driving a person, you know, Dedra is saying, um,

She is connected to this person, doesn't want to lose him. But she's saying, look at this place we can go and these things we can have and these things we can gain and these things we can win and these things we can claim. Pink fondue, opera, high heels in the dark. Lights that we can turn out. Yeah, lights that we can turn out. A very plush bedspread that you can sprawl upon in a tense moment. We can have all of this together. We can have it all.

We can have it all. And he's like, how do you keep me down on the farm after I've tasted the bees of Gorman? I don't know. I don't want to go back to Coruscant. Have you seen the lattes here? They're amazing. Oh my God. Have you seen the shelves that I keep my spiders on and the candies inside? In episode seven of season one, one of our favorite moments of the first season, when Cassian was trying to convince Marva to leave Ferex, he said, we'll find a place they haven't ruined yet.

And Marva said, I'm already there. That place is in my head. They can build as many barracks as they like. They'll never find me. That moment also very top of mind for us when we get to the Bix and Cassian moments.

sequence later, obviously. But I thought here is this point of contrast between like the pitch you're making to somebody and the thing that's driving you being like a place you're fighting for and people you're fighting for versus just like a ladder that you're seeking to climb and the difference between true connection and ambition as the kind of core like pitch.

pillars of your life. And how Ferex is such a beautiful example of that, but certainly in Star Wars, not the only one. Like, I was thinking a lot, in part because of the connection to Rebels, but, like, about our pals from Lothal and how that was the place and the motivator for them. And how Deirdre doesn't have that. And how, like...

Really sad that is. Grew up in a kinder block. Yeah, exactly. It's part of why we can hold on to a little kernel of sympathy for her, even as we watch what unfolds. This is, and not to sound like too much of a socialist on this podcast, like this is like when you think about like, what can I get for me? Yeah. Which is pure capitalism. What can I get for me versus what can I protect for us? Or what can I build for us?

different concepts entirely. The Gorman Front is preparing, Joanna. Yeah. They're meeting, but they are not all aligned. I was thinking of something you were observing and clocking in the last stretch of episodes, which is this generational divide inside of the Gorman Front, which feels even more keen here. I'm obsessed with this, honestly. We talked about this a little bit last week, but the fact that it's

Rylance and... Is it... Is it Le Zine? Is that how it's pronounced? Rylance's magazine? Or is it like Le Zin? How French is it? Who's to say? I'm honestly going to defer to you on this. I feel like you have the better instincts for these things. I believe last time I said Le Zine in like a Baltimore or mid-Atlantic accent, so I'm probably not the one to ask. The man who starts the singing, who we met in the previous arc, and Rylance, who of course has been sort of... was...

The difference between the young rebels... Okay, let me rewind and say, I think what this captures so well, and we get this later, again, I don't want to step on this tremendous observation you have about the Coruscant Massacre, but I was struck before I read what you wrote about how often the Gorman rebels in that scene are...

paired off as a man and a woman and there's so many sort of like, you know, you've got Will and his lady friend, but there's also just this idea of like,

rebellion is sexy a young sexy we all are like sleeping together sort of yeah i do a lot of like embracing as they find each other yeah like there's just this like idea of like yes we're all young and hot and fucking and we're gonna fight the system that is very much capturing the spirit of the 60s in america for sure rebellion and a lot of young student movements of just sort of like yes revolution is cool in addition to all like it's

It's exciting. Pure, but it's exciting and it's entertaining. And then you've got

uh, Lizanne and Rylance who have seen this before, they know, they like know the cost of Tarkin parking his car on the square. And so does like our bellhop, of course, but like, they're like, we've seen this before and it's not going to go the way you think you think it's going to go a certain way. And it's just not. And what absolutely devastates me is

lizanne when he starts singing and doesn't like if you watch that it's not a like we're about to win it's like he's pre-singing the dirge for what's about to happen he looks sad and resigned as he takes his like he he's bolstering the crowd but like he himself looks just sort of like we're about to get our asses beat but i'm gonna sing for us before we do um and then we'll get to everything that happens with rylance but the fact

The fact that the two of them survive and so many of those kids die and that they have to be the witness once again to the atrocities of this. Like, there are so many moments when Rylance is knocked on the ground or all these other moments where he could have died and you would have been like, that's so tragic. It is way more tragic that he lives and that his daughter dies and, you know, his daughter gets fucking killed.

tossed and crumpled. And so I think setting that up from the jump in the last arc is so smart. It just absolutely broke my heart. Same. The performances from every one of these actors is astonishing, but Rylance is doing something special in episode eight. This is unbelievable. He says here...

Like, we're good at letting them provoke us. He says that peaceful resistance is the only thing that carries any dignity. Obviously, certainly makes the pacifist of the group firing a blaster bolt into the side of Cyril Karn's head even more notable at the end when it happens. Like, that is the depth of Cyril's treachery that it led Rylance to do that thing. Our bellhop...

Our hotel bellhop from last arc, who is at the front desk now, but here in the Gorman front that I love seeing too, how the front had grown, how, uh, do I don't actually, do we ever hear anyone say, is it Thela? Is it Thela? I would, let's say Thela. Thela. Thela. Um, he says we left dignity behind years ago. And, you know, we think back to what he shared with Cassian with Varian Sky when he chucked him into his room. And he said like, with that note of, it was such a lament, uh,

when he was looking out at the plaza and the memorial and he said, haven't gone very far, have I? And like then what it means for him to be there in that room fighting more actively, but how more broadly this idea of dignity, like that this is what the oppressor does, that this is what the empire does is seek to rob you of your dignity. So like, I love what you're, what you're identifying about how, when, uh, LaZine, where did we land? Um,

I said Lisanne, but I just decided to make it as Frenchy as possible. I'm not French. I'm sorry. When he starts to sing and it feels so mournful and sorrowful, I loved that it also felt like an honoring of the promise he made here, right? The declaration he made here, which is like, we have to remember who we are. Yeah. And the, you know,

Like, what is that? What is that? It's we are the gore. If they take that from us, then what's worth saving? You know, I love that you mentioned alluding to the credit council from earlier in the season and that propaganda machine and the the the the.

both sides of that coin of these ideas. And like, you know, I loved that they brought that clip back and like the previously on of the story has been something, you know, a little arrogant about the gore. And like, what does it mean to the people who live here and come from this place? Like, what does this place mean? If they take that from us, he says here, then what's worth saving. And I was, you know, I'm getting emotional. Like, you know, I was thinking of Marva here again and like the end of season one,

And that was kind of the thing, right? That was the idea that sparked the action. But as is so often the case in Star Wars, it's about that final spark and that final push because before they heard from Marva, they had all taken to the streets together already. And they had previously rung the bells to warn each other or to help each other and to know that their neighbor needed them. And then...

This idea that like what Marva knew that she was going to die and like the message that she recorded, of course it ends with like, and we'll talk about this part of it a little later, actually. Big Marva pod today. Yeah. Fight the Empire. Like it does end on that note, but where does it start? It starts with a message about home, right? I want you to go on. I want Ferox to continue.

In my waning hours, that's what comforts me most, but I fear for you. And then she says later, we forgot them because we had each other. We had pharynx, but we were sleeping. I'm moving across the message here. Yeah.

There is a darkness reaching like rust into everything around us. We let it grow and now it's here. It's here and it's not visiting anymore. It wants to stay. Perhaps it's too late, but I'll tell you this. If I could do it again, I'd wake up early and be fighting these bastards from the start. And Marva is the old guard. Ryland says something similar, right? When he was just sort of like...

take it all back. Like, can we take it all back? And it's too late to do so. So beautiful. I love you. I wish I could hug you talking about Marva. But like, the other thing Marva says before, to Cassian, before this speech, when she's talking about Rick's road and how for like years she didn't walk

Yeah. The place where her husband was strung up and they took that from her. They took a part of her home from her. And she's like, I'm going to go fucking and walk out on Rick's road. That's what I'm going to do. Like I, they can't have this. They can't take this from me. Right. And they, and they can, and they will. Um, but,

you have to say no when they try, you know, because they will take Gorman. That's what they will do in this episode. And that's the other message of Andor. That's the message of Rogue One, right? Is like, everyone dies in Rogue One.

Gorman Falls. You know what I mean? Like, we don't get the numbers, but Mon tells us in episode nine, like, it's staggering. It's not just who was shot here in the square. It's across the planet. It's, like, it's a massacre. And so they will win until they don't. But you have to keep fighting. Yes. And I love it's, like, a little bit of the, like, Asgard isn't a place. It's a people idea, too. Like, that's why it's been so...

moving and important every time we've heard the Ferex Stone and Sky embrace it. It's because they don't have Ferex anymore, but they carry it with them. It lives in them. Yeah, it lives in them. It is different, obviously, than what's going to happen to Alderaan or what happens to Gorm. I was thinking actually even of...

You know, I know everybody in season one had some timeline questions about like, okay, well, actually the mining incident of Qadari is like pre-Empire, right? And Republic, but even so, it is really interesting to think of

Cassian's origin and the loss of his homeworld because of the governing power in the galaxy seeking to take something out of the ground and the place that he came from. And like, you know, there's not a moment in these episodes where Cassian talks about that or says that when he's, you know, when everything that's happening with Gorman is happening or later. But like,

we have that right and like i don't know it's just the richness of how the places that people have lost or had ripped away from them um informs the way that they want to to do that for other people but i also love what you're saying about how he's also like he's got his mission and he's looking through a scope and the other end of the scope he sees the one person he's there to get i think i was thinking a lot of aldani too because there's that section in the aldani arc where you know um

The Imperial forces there are talking about the way in which they have actively atrophied this cultural pilgrimage that the Aldani take. And the way they did it is so insidious because they did not do it by depriving them of it, but just sort of, it's a long trek and they just started opening up these like rest stops and whatever, these lures to just sort of,

And I was thinking about Luthan's idea of people fail, it's what they do, right? The way in which these insidious forces will use human frailty against themselves, like human nature against themselves. So like...

I don't want to go on just like one hike during a wedding weekend, let alone this like multi-day hike to go see the eye. I'm just sort of like, I've seen the eye. I don't need to go every year or whatever. And that's what they're counting on me being like, or I could just sit down and have a beer, you know, which is like what they do. So they like, they use human frailty, right?

to strip away the Aldani cultural core. And here in Gorman, they use their, their national pride and their, their, you know, like, I'm just saying you need a resistance that you can count on to do the wrong thing, you know? And so it's sort of like, okay, let's plant these seeds of, we are going to take their planet from them and we're going to watch them do the work for us because we,

We just led them to slaughter, but they wandered in on their own volition, you know, because that's what they do because they're humans and that's what humans do. And that is what is so scary about humans.

what these kinds of regimes can do because not everyone inside of the regime is intelligent, but they always have some level of intelligence inside of them who have studied human nature and human frailty. And how can we exploit fears? How can we exploit pain? How can we exploit this in order to divide, conquer, grip, control, um, and, and, uh, as

It's so desperately sad about Gorman because what else were they supposed to do? Just let the mining happen? You know? Right. Yeah. Here. Take our planet. We'll go find another one. What were they supposed to do if not this? But they are that planet. Yeah. Like, yeah. Oh, Joe, what an incredible observation. And, like, what's one of the other things that they prey upon, right? Like, it's hard. It's tired work to fight. Yeah. And, like...

resistance is exhausting and fighting is exhausting and fighting to gain something or to avoid losing something is hard too. And on Aldani, that, that was so central and palpable. Like what if you, if you resist the, the off ramps along the way, what is waiting for you there? Uh,

sneer, somebody handing over the pelt and talking about how it smells, people mocking your tradition, people befouling the sacred space, you know, they're, they're, they're counting on the fact that it becomes at some point too hard to fight. And so then that is another connection to Cassian, right? It's like every moment that he says, I'm done. It's like, how could you not be done? How could you not want to be done? Yeah.

You know, like what is required to do this once, let alone again and again and again. And that's what makes it so astonishing. Every time he does it again and every time anybody does it at all in the first place. That's, I really, I really like that Aldani comp you just made. What did you make of this moment in the streets between Cyril and Enza? There's just like a little something there. Like the slap feels personal. I know that Enza like was like,

she was the one advocating to recruit him. So there's like a personal pride for her. Like, then, off screen, La Résistance has found out that Cyril Karn is a plant, essentially, right? And so... You think it was immediate? You think they were like, we saw you in a hoodie on the balcony just like clearly feeding intel to the Empire? You think it took them a little while? But...

But I think there's something about this moment on the heels of that Dedrick kiss where he seems like just deeply not into it. That I'm like, did he, even if Cyril and Enza did not have an affair, an actual affair, it feels like there's just this like,

flavor of just so just just in addition to him like falling in love with gorman is like here's a beautiful young woman who was part of the resistance and like i think he liked being seen by her as someone who was like dashing and brave and all this other stuff like that and so like did he have a little crush on her or did they have a crush on each other did they have a dalliance or did they not but there's just like a little something extra inside of that slap uh in that alleyway which i really really liked

Yeah, even like the moment when they first meet and they have a little bit of a... Yeah. There's something in the eyes there. Yeah.

Yeah, I think... I'm with you. I don't... Unless it was part of the mission, like, you know, an American style, like, you got to come all in here to buy your cover. I don't think that they had an affair or were actually together, but I do think that I agree that I think Cyril is seeing it's, like, the road not taken here. I mean, like, this is the life that he could have chosen and the life that he could have had. And I love, like, thinking back to, you know, a moment we talked about last episode where...

when Rylance's meeting came after the town meeting and says like, you know, yeah, like I saw you in the crowd. Oh, I stood out that much? Like, no, actually. And the idea that this could have been a place where Cyril belonged and built a life. Who are you? Like, it's just... And like to now not only have to like...

confront this thing that is happening on this place that he actually is drawn to and feels like a sense of belonging, but... And to confront his role in bringing this about, but then to have to see himself through their eyes. Like...

To have gone from being needed and valued, the only thing he wants in his entire life. That's it. Being seen as worthy. Yes. Capable, worthy. Because he comes from Edie Legend, Imperial News 24-Hour Watcher. He comes from her house where she is just constantly undermined and belittled by her family.

And then he's just sort of like, can I, can I get that validation inside of my job at, at, you know, as a corpo? No. Uh, can I get it from the ISB? Can I get it from Dedra? Can I get it from this exciting mission? Can I get it as like, uh, even a fake revolutionary inside of here who is going to give me approval and telling me that I'm a good boy. Um, and then at the end of the day, the, the,

The most tragic thing for Cyril Karn is who are you? And then the shot to the head, obviously. Like that is, that image is going to stick with me. Historically brutal. Yeah. But him wide, like wild eyed, just staring around the square as he sees. Yes. Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions, like is one of the most

incredible, indelible images. I agree. I just can't get over it. And any one of those stray shots could have taken him out, but the punishment was that he had to look. I know. I wrote that in my notes. I was like, especially when they both get blown to the ground and there's a second where you're like, is Cyril dead? I'm like, it would have been better if he had died there before Cassidy Andor said, who are you to him? That is like... Great. Oh my God. I loved too, here in this little quick moment with Enza,

That he had to, like, face the rebuke of, like, the specific thing that he was offering, right? That we're still in this, like, okay, I'm hanging on to the last little tendrils outside Agitator's idea. What if I could pin this on other people? Yeah. And, like...

The slap and the, like... We're going to build toward his exchange with her father, which I just honestly thought was one of the best scenes in, like, the history of television. It's just unbelievable. Like, these episodes are so good. Everything is simultaneously, like, one of the five best scenes in the history of TV and barely a top 20 scene in these episodes. It's amazing. But, like, the idea that... We'll tell a lie. We will...

sacrifice somebody else in order to save ourselves we will look for a way out instead of fighting for the thing that we believe in that's here he's pitching the empire to someone who's facing it and like i i just thought that was a really great little touch for her to have to confront like actually that you are the person in this moment at least that they think you are and that is the real defeat uh very painful not the most painful thing coming his way but very painful

The forces are arriving on all sides. Kato, um, Donald from, from bad sisters. Wow. This is like, I'm like, Oh my God. It's like, you're living. Boy. Uh, this would have been, I would have loved to see this guy, uh,

die brutally. I do feel a little bit cheated of seeing him like really, really, really torn apart. Maybe like spine shattered by one of his own KX security teams or something. Rip the spine out of the back of him. I think we frankly deserved to see that. He greets Sergeant Bloy and the personnel and we actually get to hear D'Andrea say like, they look like

I mean, this was just so, so upsetting. She says that in Bloy also. Like, again, I was thinking of the point you made on the Last of Us pod where it's just sort of like, what does it mean that someone who is just like just below Isaac on the chain of man or whatever is like chosen for this is like, is this what we want to do? So like, I love that Sergeant Bloy shows up and he's like,

There's not a man among them here, you know? And he's like, is this going to be a problem? No. So we get this exposition. Yeah. Like we get this nice explanation via Bloy, via Dedra of like what exactly they've assembled here. Right. These children that they're willing, you know, who won't know what they're doing. They're cannon fodder. Not just cannon fodder, but like wildly unpredictable and will not behave well.

inside of this. Both of those things, like easily dispensable, disposable, and then also just sort of like will not behave themselves when the shit hits the fan. And I love the way that we got that information. It's so tidy. There's so many moments. Again,

the layers of it. There's so many moments where we're hearing something, whether it's like Imperial news or whatever, over the visual of something else that's happening because they've only got three episodes to give us like all the story they need to give us. I know it was wild to see in some of the interviews, um,

uh gilroy talking about how like yeah danny uh just wrote this incredible like k2so horror episode that like we couldn't end up we couldn't do not enough time not enough money i'm like what dr texted me about that he was just sort of like apparently there was a whole k2so episode um can we have it please my lord no kidding i we we should get that one day i hope um cast and will are here too

Quick little planning. Yeah. This is the meeting plan. This is the comms plan. This is where Deirdre posts. Do we think the glass is old enough? Is it going to require two shots? Like, it's all just boom, boom, boom. This is what we're here for. This is how we'll do it. Deirdre, work-life balance not great. She's sleeping in the office. Sleeping at the office. And I would say going out on the balcony too often. Yeah. Far too often, honestly. It's hostile territory from our perspective. Yeah. Come on. Yeah, sleeping at the office.

Do you think she has at least like a comfortable quarter or is she just like sleeping in the party guest conference room? I think she has a cot. A cot's not ideal. Yeah. Okay. Maybe she's, how often do we think she was going to Cyril's before everything went so wrong? Never. Well, that's upsetting. That's upsetting. That's the other thing is how long do you expect your boyfriend to like go honeypot? Like he's been there over a year, you know?

Long enough to grow out those beautiful waves. Time has passed. Cassie and Shaq's in at the same hotel. Speaking of time passing. Ronnie Guja, Mid Rim News. Okay, Ronnie Guja. Great, great cover name. So funny. Never heard of it, Mid Rim News. We're trying to change that. Great stuff. So funny. We understand why Cassie is here because the hotel is right on the square.

But also, do we check into the same hotel under a different name one year later, only one year later, without really meaningfully changing our appearance? Like, oh, I got to say, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I cannot believe I haven't said this already. Cassie Nandor is rocking a half up hair for a lot of this stretch. This is my favorite Cassie Ann hair yet. Incredible.

Yeah. Yes, the Variant Sky hair was a slick back do, but it's just not different enough. I also think it's really funny when he shows up to as Ronnie Guja at the Senate building and he's just got like his war wounds from Gordon on his waist. I know, I actually was

was like does this make sense but obviously they do his he is like formally saying I was at the massacre and now I've like followed the story to the political fallout so I guess that would be okay but I was like it would be like a little concealer yeah is this guy a secret assassin this is like a lot of bruising yeah

So our beloved Thela, bellhop from last arc, at the front desk now. Can I just shout out really quickly? So the actor...

He's very French. Stéphane Craypon, is that his name? It seems to be. Okay. So he was on Le Bureau and we got a lot of emails about how much people love him. Chris and Andy. Yeah. Chris and Andy favorite. And I think it was like, and my pal Daphne, who you know, also texted me. She said he's her favorite. She's like, imagine those eyes deployed like over the course of many, many episodes. Oh, wow. Yeah.

I think it was like a little bit of a casting spoiler for people like when he showed up like in the last arc and I think people who like LeBron are like this is not a one scene kind of guy he's definitely gonna throw a bomb later um anyway he's great wonderful he really is really really really good um there's a little bit of a little bit of a oh boy like do you have your uh

entry stamp Cassian blames the curfew I didn't want to miss the curfew but the other person at the front desk says like we're gonna have to report this and then disappears muttering about an Alderaan shut up great touch um and our guy tells Cassian that

she'll have to report it. This is the timing. We turn over the names in the afternoon. And then just confirms that he remembers who he is, right? That he recognized him. You'll have to carry your own bag this time. You know the way. Cassian seems less ruffled about this than I would be. Now, given that we just saw him land a plane in a way where he's just sort of like, ha ha, isn't that funny? We almost died. I guess nerves of steel are his thing, but I would just be like,

I personally would have a moment of fear if I were Cassian. I liked, like... He gives them that little nod, right? And I liked then thinking back to their first moment together from last arc through this lens of, on the one hand, Cassian is preserving his cover, his variant sky, right? I'm a designer. I'm here. It's my dream to be here. I want to learn about this place. He is actually learning about the history of the place, the Tarkin massacre, what happened in that plaza, the memorial, what does it mean to people? But he's also...

about this person and I like thinking that he was like, what if I need to rely on him one day? Where does he stand? Is this a person I can trust? Got friends everywhere, man. Got friends everywhere. And like, it was interesting too to think of

There are so many parallels and then contrasts between Cyril and Cassian, but when Cyril needs to get into the building later and he's able to flag down and get waved in by the guard from Last Ark who had been watching the pod racing, who had sweet-talked his way, and cultivating your sources is part of doing the work, the spycraft, the tradecraft. The way that the massacre...

The way that Cyril and Cassian are just moving around the square, these foils of each other, the way that the camera will like cut from one to the other in a way that you're almost like, wait, who am I following now? Is genius. Incredible stuff. Genius. Very good television. So much of the show has been about getting them out of the same place. Yeah.

And then the way that it all finally happened. When they pass each other at one point and you're like, yeah. And you're like, yeah. I was like, oh my God. Oh God. Cassian goes up to his room. Just a fucking sick. I've got my blaster that I'm turning into a sniper rifle secret case here moment. Really incredible. Radio's Will.

Weather report, clear skies tonight. We'll check in tomorrow, et cetera. And I loved when Will said, we're always here because the Narkeena 5 arc and the animalistic screaming from Cassian, nobody's listening. The idea of this code phrase, I have friends everywhere, and how there are moments where like Mon later hearing that, never having felt so isolated and alone, right? Yeah.

But for Cassian, it's like, Will is someone he can rely on. When Will tells him we're always listening, Cassian knows that's true. And, like, I just love those little touches like that. I thought that stuff was great. Also great when he just basically, like, takes out a little spy mirror and says, Cassian,

Because he hears the sounds and he knows the sounds and how could he not? Like everybody does, but also... That thing's retractable, right? Yeah. So it can fit in your luggage. Yeah. Unrolls it and then furls it back up. Although we never see the troopers, we only see them in the reflection in the mirror. It's like really... Yeah. And especially for Cassian, it's like, you know...

the memories and the horror of the troopers and Clem and Rick's road in the square in his past on Ferrix, obviously the troop, the, the arrest and the confrontation with the troopers on Neimos, like he knows what this means. And so it is again, like a combination of the personal history and the personal reason for terror and having to push through that. And then this larger sense of like, well, what does it mean to have troopers here on Gorman? We know really, really, really, really, really, really good. Um,

And in the morning, as you noted, he's like, something's going on at the plaza. A lot of activity. They're moving the barriers. He radios Will, who is just in bed with Trina, like in the middle of the, like people are just everywhere. To your point about everyone's young and everyone's fucking. I love that. I love this. It's just like, we don't need our own private space. We're just like all right here. And they think they're opening the plaza. I've seen Enemy at the Gate. Yes. Cassian says they're not opening the plaza. They're building a shell around the building. They're building a fortress. Yes.

Deirdre, meanwhile, is receiving an update of her own. Mining equipment. Gormley. Gormley. You seem animated. The mining equipment has arrived on the planet, Joanna. All over the planet. All over the planet. She asks Partagas...

If this is a story Director Krennic wants to be telling, and Partagaster says, we're done. We're done with the local rumors. We're done with story time. We are no longer trying to cultivate the right narrative or foster the right climate. The only story that matters, he says, is Gorman aggression. Their struggles are, quote, well-documented. In other words, they have the cover that they need to do the thing they're going to do, and they no longer care about anything else.

Also, it's so chilling to then hear the exact same language that he uses out of the voice of the reporter in the next scene. He uses the exact same, this is the status of what's going on here. Also, calling them insurgents. Yeah. It's just, anyway. Yeah.

Just like the definite, you know, your rebel is my terrorist sort of thing. It's just sort of like the fact that Dedra just uses the word insurgent over and over again. It's this dehumanizing way to talk about the citizens, the voters, if you will. The voters, exactly. I was just going to say the same. On the connection front, I love that little cut from E.D.,

who is watching the Imperial news and the Cyril spider is there. It's on the table to then cutting to Cyril, who is moving the spiders on the shelves. And we see the battle prep. We see the Gorman front assembling their blasters, built their armory of their own, right? We saw how they stole it and then preparing their Molotov cocktails, getting ready for a fight. A soldier comes along and he fetches Cyril. He's like, comms are down.

We're asking all Imperial officials to report to the IOC building. So we're starting to get people to all of the places that they need to be. And then it is time to take to the plaza. Coms are down intentionally. This is like during the Arab Spring when they would just block Twitter in certain areas, geo-block Twitter. So you could not communicate with each other to organize what you needed to do.

And earlier in the season on Mineral, when they blocked the frequencies so that nobody who was there could call to anybody else to ask for help. It's really encouraging that Twitter is now owned by Elon Musk. It's great. Okay. Can I get, okay, to that point about sort of like getting the message out? Yes. So when the Gorman front goes into the plaza, right, we get...

you know, the end of Les Mis Act One, uh, flags waving, smoke machine going, uh, sort of thing. Yeah. They head to the plaza. They are chanting, we are the gore the galaxy is watching. And they say the galaxy is watching again and again and again, which is, this is like, there are several times inside of these episodes that Tony Gilroy has put in language from real world rebellion inside of this. So like the whole world is watching is this chant from the 1968 Democratic National Committee, uh,

where the police brutally battered the anti-Vietnam protesters. And the whole world is watching is such an upsetting thing to use here because as this rallying cry, the galaxy is watching, the whole world is watching,

And that's exactly what the Empire wants. Yeah. But they're like, shame on you. Everyone's going to see what you've done here. And the Empire is like, we want everyone to see what we're about to do here. And that is like, again, they're just like already all tangled up in the web that has been woven around them. They're already in the trap. And it's just so upsetting. Jesus Christ. I mean, this is basically what Enza and her father argue about. Right. In their final conversation.

He says, little Admiral Ackbar here in our Andor, he says it's a trap. And he, I mean, he is beside himself. He is begging her. He's imploring her. You can stop this. They're begging us to fight. They want us to fight. They want people to see.

She says, we can't be silent any longer. And he says, silent, we will be silent when we're dead. And the thing that was so upsetting about this, in addition to obviously the fact that this is like a father and a daughter at odds in this way in their final moments, but that they want the same thing.

They believe they should be pursuing it differently, but they want the same thing. But that they are also both right about what they are saying here, both of them. And that's when you feel the closing of that fist. Like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, right? One way out on Narkina, like no way out here. And that is just like... I was thinking of one way out on Narkina. When you think about the way in which they have designed this plaza. Yeah.

I'll talk about this a little bit later when I talk about another real world comp, but like there's, there's literally one way out. And what I love about, sorry to get ahead, but like on the, this, this,

One of my favorite things to talk about surprise versus suspense, right? There are like we who know Star Wars know there's a thing called the Gorman Massacre. So the minute we go to Gorman, we know, not everyone, but we who have watched Rebels or we who whatever know the Gorman Massacre is coming. So we know that this is inevitably we're spinning towards this. But there's just moments inside of this episode, like when we hear them talking about like,

the south steps do we have the troops for the south steps like before the stormtroopers show up on those south steps which is the one way out the one way in we have seen um every time Cyril has gone to work anytime someone has come to that hotel you have to go down those steps that's the one way in the one way out and um

Or we see the KX units before they're deployed. And so they could have come out as a surprise. Like, oh shit. But we know that they're waiting. And even as we see the Resistance make any kind of win, we know that they don't even know what's waiting for them yet. Like, what's yet to come. The brutality that is awaiting them is just...

so upsetting and it is so smart to put that those suspenseful elements of like, we are filled with all of this dread because we know worse is coming and worse is coming and worse is coming. Yeah. I thought too, to that, to that point, like where they are specifically luring them, not only to this place where there are, it's going to be like a fish in the barrel, but they are drawing the citizens of Gorman to the memorial and,

that marks the Tarkin massacre, the last time a thing like this happened here. They are making them believe that they can go back to the sacred place and gather and reclaim their homeland, and that will be the place that the Empire afflicts this atrocity. The Empire is evil? Hideous! Um...

Let's talk about this moment between Cyril and Rylance. Yes. Cyril's moving among the marchers and Rylance spots him and he pushes him into an alley. He asks him how he dare to walk these streets and Cyril says, like, I meant you no harm. How do you say that? How do you speak the words? You've destroyed us. And Cyril says, I was here to trap outside agitators.

Rylance tells him about the mining equipment. This will be the interaction that leads to the fateful Cyril and Dedra confrontation momentarily. That's a rumor. Are you mad, Rylance says, that I believe that, that it's worth saying? What kind of being are you? And he asks what's in the ground, what they've been sent here to steal, and Cyril is just like, literally throws him to the ground and walks away and

He can no longer fail to confront here how he has been used, that it is not that he has the purpose that he has long craved. It is that he is a tool. And worse than that, that the thing that he rebelled against, his own rebellion on Marlana, the idea of

a cover-up and some sort of deception in the shadows that the truth was worth pursuing and revealing, that he would have been used in that way to bring about the destruction of a place that he actually had a fondness for and an affection to. I'm struggling to think of a line that is more...

of a brutal evisceration, then what kind of a being are you? What kind of a being are you? Stop me in my tracks. And I think especially at a rewatch when we find out that like, who are you are the last words he hears before he dies at a shop by man violence. But what kind of a being are you? And so here we have from this moment, if not sooner, sooner,

but Cyril's spinning out in this sort of like, what have I done? Who am I? Oh my God. I'm not this dashing double agent that I thought I was. I am a tool. I am nothing. I am insignificant. To have that just like the cherry on the top of that Sunday being, who are you? For like finding his white whale and have the whale being like, I don't think about you at all. I don't think about you at all. I don't think about you at all.

Oh my God. Which is an iconic Don Draper Mad Men line, which you and I both had in our notes, is the Mad Men line I think about more than any other Mad Men line. Same. That and that's what the money's for. That's what the money's for. But I don't think about you at all. Not great, Bob. Also, I got it. But I don't think about you at all.

I don't know if I've told this story in the pod before, but like my, my coworker and I used to say it to each other in terms of like, whenever we get spun out about like at, at, at Vanity Fair, whenever we get spun out about like the layers of, you know, intrigue and like whatever. And we're just like, actually, let's just take comfort in the fact that like, probably they don't think about us at all. No one's thinking about us. This has nothing to do with us.

Right. I don't think about you at all. Like they're just not paying attention and that is fine. Um, what kind of being are you? Oh my God. Well, that can be the, the, the, they don't think about us at all. It can be a comfort, but if, um,

If the person saying who are you is the defining figure in your life. Not for him. Not for Cyril Karn. That's the worst thing he's ever heard. But like, I sink full comfort in it. But yeah. I love that. What kind of being are you? Oh my God. This was so brutal and just like so incredibly written and incredibly performed. Really, really remarkable and memorable. My God. Cassian has to head out to the plaza too, but before he does an iconic Star Wars quote has to be born.

So I feel like there are versions of this. That suck. Where you're like, yeah. Oh, they showed us how rebellions are built on Hope Came to Be and we just roll our eyes and are like, okay, we get it. This moved me to tears. I just thought this was...

For Thela to be the person who says this, this hotel bellhop who spent his life looking out at the reminder of the worst thing that had happened to him and wondering why he stayed so close and then deciding to fight to save it. Like, he tells Cassian, don't worry, I never checked you in. So we have a cementing of this understanding and this bond. We are friends everywhere. Yeah.

And Cassian, of course, understands the risk of that. You're supposed to do something for the empire and you didn't. And then Cassian says, not a thing actually that he says to everyone. I hope things work out for you. And then Vela leans in and he whispers, rebellions are built on hope. And I just love, this feels so connected to the idea of the messenger in these episodes. I just love thinking about this like,

chain of custody of this little ember you know like for it to go here to cassian and then be an idea that he shares with jinn so that jinn can then attempt to rally yavin and then eventually we work toward our rogues doing the thing that they do so that the the the information that needs to get into leia does and when someone asks what did they give us she can say hope like

This is such a, we love to quote the line from Fellowship of the Rings, such as the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world. Small hands do them because they must while the eyes of the great are elsewhere. I just like love the idea that this like boy who lost his father and felt his home in peril became a man who said this thing and inspired this person in this way. And the,

effect that that had on the scope of history. Like, this is just one of, I think, the best embodiments of how, like, every person actually can make a difference and it can feel, like, cheesy to say and hard to believe, but, like, when you watch something like this, you can feel that it's real and that's just amazing. I love this. I, um, we got this incredible email from John that, like, in some ways echoes what you just articulated beautifully and then there's, like, I think it's worth reading just because I think there's, like,

Often is the case that someone articulates something beautifully in an email and then it's just like, Mal already said it, so I'm not going to repeat it. But okay, so what John says here is he says...

This bellhop made one offhand remark that eventually is what helps the Rogue One crew find the inspiration they need to go to Scarif. Without that phrase, without the pain the bellhop went through, without his father taking him to the square that day, Tarkin decided to park his space Tesla, you know he has one, on top of the people, would the Death Star have been destroyed? Of course, none of us are watching or analyzing Andor in a vacuum. We know what is happening in our country and world right now, and we are all constantly asking, what can we do to help?

We all feel so powerless right now as day after day, more executive orders, renditions, agency closures, threats to entitlements, et cetera, continue to be rolled out even while so many vulnerable people are being targeted. When the problems are this big, it feels like the solutions have to be equally large. And so none of us are content to settle for reactions that feel too small. We crave big ideas because the threats are so overwhelming. However...

I think this is where it is important to remember how the relay race of rebellion resistance works. Even if our resistance is something as seemingly small as sharing hope with others, we have no idea what dividends it might pay out down the road. The important thing, like our friend the bellhop did, is to be on the lookout for opportunities. And even if we have but a few words to offer a fellow traveler, who knows how those words might help down the road.

I just thought it was really beautiful. Yes. And from John to your incredible point, John. Oh God. So thank you, John. Thank you to Mallory. Thank you to professor Tolkien, who is always welcome on this podcast. Welcome. And thanks. Oh my God. Well, actually I think has been promoted to concierge. I don't want to diminish what seems to have been a promotion for him. Yes. Definite, definite. Welcome to the front desk and the resistance. Yeah.

Oh my God. I was so related to what John wrote here about this idea of feeling overwhelmed. I'm like, there's nothing I alone can do that feels big enough to match what is the overwhelm of what is happening from

the current administration who I disagree with. And so it's just sort of like when my brother-in-law called me this morning to talk about the, the sort of the shock and awe of, you know, the bam, bam, bam every day, there's something new. And how do we, how do we keep track of what to follow and how do we wrap our arms around everything that's happening? Because it is by design inside of a lot of these, like, you know,

in my opinion, fascistic sort of regimes, it is by design, it is meant to overwhelm so that you feel helpless and incapacitated. And so this idea that you don't have to attack at all, but what are the little things that you could do inside of your community that could build and build and build and build that build the ladder that we climb to get to the top to send the message to Princess Leia, et cetera, et cetera. So I love this show and I'm devastated that it will soon be over. Oh my God.

And I'm now thinking too, even just like they climb to send it and they have to trust that someone up there opened the shield and someone is there to take the next step. The relay race comp really was a great one. Man, the bad babies. Oh, fuck. They're so good. Oh my God. I'm a wreck right now. Cassian goes outside. This is when Cyril just walked right past him on the stairs and I screamed.

Everybody is making their way, converging on the plaza, making their way to each other. Edza finds Delon, Tazi, and Sam. Sam really has his moment in this episode. My goodness. Liza, Capso. When Sam has his moment, you're like, is this what Cinta died for, actually? Like, Cinta dies so that Vel can say, I like skin. Sam, remember this and be a warrior. And then he is one and he saves Cassian Andor.

And it helps create K-2SO, who are instrumental in the relay race of this rebellion. So it should not have died, but I'm just saying it's all part of this. Sam took Vel's words to heart. Yeah, I mean, like, it was Sam. It wasn't, like, Delon who did it. It was Sam, and that matters inside of this story. Yes, absolutely. Agreed. For sure. Will tells Drina he has to go find his friend.

They're trying to reach each other, Will and Cassian, across the stretch. They can't hear each other on the radio. Oh my God. The stress, very, very high. Cassian spots Deirdre on the balcony. He's using his scope, this little game inside of the larger horror. And Cyril makes his way to the IOC building, flags down the guard, gets in. This is where he makes his way into the waiting room where he spots the droids. We don't know for sure, but I like to think that the one who looks over will eventually become K2SO. Yeah, best of luck.

Has to be. And Kato orders Bloy, send the troops out into the crowd. The troopers are marching down the stairs. The citizens have begun to scream. All of the tension is building. And then this is where Lazine dies.

takes his hat off and starts to sing. And then slowly, like the way the chant shifts into this shared anthem, like a reminder of the thing they're fighting for, this celebration, this embrace of this place and this people, uh, was so affecting and beautiful. I like, I, I was just like a wreck. Uh,

Take on me earlier this week in The Last of Us and this. We're just having an incredible musical moment inside of our genre television. This beautiful national anthem that they wrote for the gore, which is about... Gorgeous. You know, like about the land, the valleys. Yes. We are the gore. It's just really amazing. We got several emails about this, and it was hard to winnow them down. But our listener, Chris...

It immediately reminded me of that unforgettable moment in Casablanca when the house band starts playing La Marseillaise and the whole bar stands up to drown out the Nazis singing in Rick's Cafe, which is one of the... We got a lot of emails about that Casablanca moment, which is one of the most beautiful cinematic moments of resistance-based singing in La Marseillaise as this French national anthem moment of like... You know, fucking...

Captain Von Trapp ripping up a Nazi flag and then singing Edelweiss. You know what I mean? This idea of like, this is who we are. This is Austria. This is France. This is, we are not this. Our listener Reagan wrote in and said to say, my favorite Marvel movie moment isn't a flashy battle or a funny quip. It's the old German man who refused to kneel for Loki. Seeing the Gorman massacre play out, I had plenty of historical perils to think about, but watching Lausanne figure out what was happening around him, seeing the resignation on his face turned to defiance, hearing him start singing a song that

will never leave my brain. I cried watching it. I'm crying again typing about it. It was like I was shot with a diamond bullet right through my forehead. This man loved his home world. He was speaking truth to power. He was standing in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square. Didn't matter that he felt like he was about to lose everything. He was going to express his love one last time. That love and that song spread through the doomed crowd like wildfire. Doomed.

Do the, hear the people sing Gorman brightly. Indeed stone and sky one way out voices joined in chorus together. I actually think I wrote that last part. Usually in brackets, it's me. Stone in the sky. I was just thinking about stone in the sky one way out. These ideas of like voices chanting together one thing. And, and how the brilliance of this show is to give us, you know, then we later you've pointed out a number of times we, when we hear Cassian say stone in the sky, um,

You know, if, if Melchia and Cassian get to talk to, will they say one way out? Is that something you would say? I don't know. But like, you know, these, just these, like the way that the language of the show gives us things to think about and shorthand of, of rebellious spirit is so important. The language that you share. I love that. I love that. Those are beautiful emails. I love to like, all the lyrics were gorgeous, but

I think my favorite part was call your kin to come and sing We Are the Gore. Like that idea, again, of the communal bond, the family, the people who you lived your life with. Like you have to sing this together. It's interesting also in the, you know, to make it a more comfortable remove, if we think about like the Nazi uprising, the way in which like

fatherland and patriotism was like warped to, you know, fuel that, that this idea of our home, our homeland, um,

uh, who we are, our kin, this is what matters. That kind of like insidious bent of nationalism, uh, you know, as this dark mirror to this other thing of like, let us keep who we are as the empire continues to try to quash individual cultures and spirits around the galaxy. Very upsetting to think about. Deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply, uh, speaking of upsetting Cyril,

Sneaks upstairs, didn't listen to Orwyle, told him to stay, but charges into Dedra's office. What have you done? What have you done? What are we doing here? I love that pairing of the you and the we. This is a fascinating scene for tracking language choice. Cyril going from you to we. Dedra in her replies soon, they. When does she say they? They.

blaming someone else, right? Yeah. When did she say we? Yeah. What can we gain? What was their fault? Who is the us? In The Last of Us, who is the us inside of all of this? Deirdre and Cyril. Similarly, like, for Cassian and Will, Cassian's like, hey, we're the us. We gotta get out of here. Will's like, I got a new us, actually. And she's fresh. Um...

Similar to The Galaxy's Watching. The Following Orders line here, which you rightly point out, is also used in The Bad Batch, but is historical language from the Nuremberg Trials. Is what Adolf Eichmann, in his defense of what he did inside of the Nazi regime, this was the origin of that phrase. Yes.

He says, quote, forced to serve as mere instruments. So again, to your point of Dedra, when is it they and when is it we? She talks about it as an inevitability. They were going to do this anyway. It was going to happen anyway. So why shouldn't we benefit from it?

And I think I get so frustrated when people talk about things as an inevitability. I think this happens all the time with AI. People are like, what's going to happen anyway? I'm like, it is if you say it is. You know, so it's like...

just using historical language inside of your fantasy Star Wars show to... to Tony Gilroy's point. Make us understand that this has been happening and will continue to happen because these are the cycles that we exist inside of. Yeah. Yes. Right. The scene is upsetting for so many different reasons, including the one that you just brilliantly outlined, that tie to history. I...

I thought that the way Cyril screamed, you know, asks how long she's known, starts to shake her. She says he's hurting her. Screams about the Armada. And the way that he says you couldn't even wait. Haunting. Then he begins to choke her.

This is brutal. He says, don't. You tell me it's a rumor and I will throw you out that window. What have we been doing here? And she tells him, finally.

And he releases her horrified and she makes this final pitch that we've already discussed. We're going home, Cyril. We're going home as heroes. This began long before we got here. They've been planning it for years. They're doing this no matter what. We wanted to be together. You didn't seem to mind the promotions. And I thought that the way that this shifts from obviously the horror of the physical violence, the emotional violence...

into the, like, rapturous state of this hero's pitch, we can win. We can be together. We can celebrate the rollercoaster that we are on for both of them in this scene. And I think that, like, we're tracking ultimately the end of Cyril Karn's life here as we build toward the Cassian scene. And I think we both, and Tony Gilroy, we have some quotes to share from him, believe that Cyril Karn's story is a tragedy, but not one where...

he has no culpability, right? And this is, of course, why Andor is the show that it is. And I thought something like the you didn't seem to mind the promotions line was a great touch and an important touch inside of a scene where, to be clear, we are watching a character who we have wanted to see reject the thing that he has been a part of at last and make a different choice abusing a woman. This is obviously horrific. And I thought that...

you didn't seem to mind the promotions line was really crucial because like they're there. It is right to call Cyril out like on his greed. Right. And how this desire to be valued and to advance and to be praised, you know, it's only last week that we watched him say of part of gas complimenting him. Like if I say this is the greatest day of my life, does it spoil everything now, all of the things that have shaped who Cyril is and the toxicity of his household and the

withering and the uh diminishments and belittlement from his mother all the time made him this person and that is devastating but then he did the things that he did and he made the choices that he made and all of those things are true yeah and i i love that yeah we we want to understand characters like this because we want to understand all characters right i am interested in the internal you know the heart of the psychology of uh a zero karn

And so meeting Edie and spending time with Edie is so interesting. But yeah, the show is never interested in letting Cyril off the hook for who he is. And I think the choice of having him choke Dedra here, which is such a horrific thing to watch, is so important. I got a text from our pal Brian Cogman, who loves Cyril Karn.

And he says, as the guy whose favorite characters to write were Jaime and Theon, RIP Cyril, you are my fave. Then he was like, redemption arcs are bullshit. We love a character on an arc and we love a redemption arc, but I do love that Cyril doesn't get one. I, you know, as much as we were sort of like, hey man, wake up, like, leave. Yeah.

Anyway, we'll get to that. But I just think... I think it was so important to have him do this very vile thing inside of this moment as he breaks away from this thing that he willingly waltzed his way into. Yeah, it's really good. Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about it more with the Cassian scene, but I think the combination of... We can see on his face as he stands in the plaza in that, like, borderline catatonic haze. Yeah. I have...

I have played a part in ruining this place that I actually love. That I love. Yeah. And I don't want this to happen. Like when he went to Enza and said, what if I had a way out? Like that he, there is a part of him that wanted to behave differently and do a different thing and to help. He just didn't know how. And like the fact that at the very final moment, the final moment is the lowering of the gun, which I can't wait to talk to you about, obviously. But before that, when you're in that plaza,

Cyril could fight, but when he sees Cassian, he is sucked back in. He is sucked back in to the obsession that misled him, and that just felt very sad, but also quite fitting for a character who I... It was just perfect. The almost of it is perfect. Really, really good. The Gorman Massacre is here. The troops march into the singing crowd.

Deirdre receives the call. She hesitates for a moment and then gives the order to Cato, who proceeds to tell the sniper, fire at will. And that sniper shoots not a citizen, but an Imperial soldier, causing Bloy to order his soldiers to fire upon the crowd at will. And all of our friends then join in on the fight. I think from the Deirdre perspective, we can't really overstate the significance of this.

You know, we're talking about it a lot with Cassian and Mon Mothma and Gorman and what this means for the Rebellion. And Dedra is also a messenger, one of the cogs in this machine, and receives a call and then shares the message. I thought that moment earlier in the episode where Kato was like, I'm the trigger, but you're the finger. You know, that web. But she chose to partake. And she oversaw the mission on Gorman that leads to this moment

And the centrality then for Dead Romero in the history of galactic events, like, cannot be overstated. And this is what we're swirling towards. This moment is what we're swirling. Like, because it's not, it is Rogue One. Like, we are getting to that. But if you think about all the threads that we follow from the beginning of Andor, like,

it's Cyril we were like why are we following Cyril Karn and who is Deirdre Miro why are we following her and the fact that it's just like all these forces were coming together to be here on Gorman at this moment this is what

This is why part of gas is here. This is why. And like, that is a story that they're telling. Um, and what that, and then what that then in the next episode will cause Mon Mothma to do. And like, yes, we have three more episodes to go, but that's the denouement of like, this is, this is, this is it, man. Um, can I talk about a real world comp for this moment? Um,

So we got this email from our listener, Estella, which prompted me to watch a couple little documentaries on this historical incident from the 1960s. Please...

forgive my pronunciation, but I believe it's the Lata Loco massacre in Mexico, 1968, uh, year, the Olympics are going to be in Mexico city. There were all these student protests about police brutality and a number of other things. Um, and, uh, on a given day, one given day that they marched into, uh, the Plaza de las Tres Culturas and the, uh,

The cops surrounded them. There was one way out of that plaza. The cops surrounded them. Snipers up at the building shot into the crowd and they shot and they shot the generals down on the ground. So exactly what happens here in terms of like a sniper working for the government shoots someone on their own side inside of the crowd in order to frame the students. There are other instigators inside of this. And, and then,

Estella wrote in her email over 300 people died, but actually, I mean, what I found out is that there is no official number of how many people died in the square that day, but there is footage of it that you can watch and it is horrifying to watch in terms of like, there was, it starts so slow. There's just like,

peaceful student unarmed peaceful student protesters in in the square here and then there's also just like people around who wandered in who were curious there were journalists sports journalists who were in town to cover the olympics who like came over to sort of like see what was going on and then they block off the one exit and then it's just um as you as you sort of said about this plaza here

fish in a barrel. The other thing that is so upsetting about, and I don't know if this is something that Tony Gilroy and his team drew on, but the plaza itself is,

De las Tres Culturas was a place where the last stand of the indigenous culture there for the Spanish conquest earlier, and there was already a memorial there to a previous conquest. And so this idea of like in this sort of sacred space where this horrific thing already happened to the Mexican people, this other thing happens from their own government to the student protesters inside of the square. I was really, it's sort of like,

Similar to, and this just maybe speaks to my own education, but it's similar to like learning about what happened in Tulsa via Watchmen. Like I'm so embarrassed that I didn't know about this until watching Andor, but watching the footage and watching Andor

The helicopters fly over the same way that the TIE fighters fly over. The visual cues are so similar to the footage that I saw. And again, I haven't seen any interviews where they talked about this because I know that Tony Gilroy is drawing from just a number of real world inspirations. But I just thought this idea of the police spies, the provocateurs,

like the provocation inside of the crowd, the snipers, the helicopters, the nature of the plaza itself. Like there's a number of, but I also saw people, some people like on the Andorra Reddit talking about how it reminded them of things that happened in Istanbul or like, and it was just like, this happens, this happens in history. But this was an example that felt so real.

stunningly similar and so upsetting. I don't recommend watching this footage, but it does exist if you want to watch it. It's horrible. It's horrible to watch and it is so well done. This is one of the best action

battle sequences I've ever seen. And it's like, there's no, you know, we love a, we love a Game of Thrones battle episodes, but you don't need, I mean, TIE flyers are, are flying overhead, but like, you don't need, um,

or White Walkers or anything like that. This is a human skirmish inside of a relatively hemmed-in space. We talked earlier about how they built this set to be all one real connected set, so the hotel lobby or inside the cafe or whatever, so they could then destroy it, essentially, inside of this battle. And when Cassian ducks into the cafe or Thela's in the hotel lobby trying to get people out of the way so he can throw a bomb, this is all one set that they built.

and it just makes it all feel that much more upsetting. Or we see one member of the resistance cowering behind, who is sort of the most bullish guy in the crowd when they're sort of getting chanting and stuff like that, and then once the shooting starts, he's just sort of cowering behind the fountain, and then we don't see...

We see the sniper take aim, and then we just see him go down in the background from Will's perspective. And I thought that was just like a really stunning moment inside of a really stunning sequence. I think that, first of all, thank you. And thank you to Estella for that email and those insights. I think to that last point you just made, that was like what was most striking to me about, I thought this entire sequence inside of an astonishing episode was just stunning.

and it's harder and also in the mastery of the filmmaking. I think this is like a... We already talked about it. It is TV, not a movie, but I genuinely think this is like Oscar-quality filmmaking and what we see here. Yeah.

What you cited about when Tazi falls, we see it from Will's perspective. That is of all of the brilliant aspects of how this was filmed and choreographed and how I love you reminding us about the practical set and us understanding how people move through these spaces and how they connect and that this is the path on which they live their lives. It's the Tarkin massacre becoming the site of the Gorman massacre, but it's also how they walk to work, where they buy their spiders, right? Like this is the place that they inhabit and move about, right?

the way that we cut from the different character perspectives, it's all brilliant. The thing that I was most struck by though, was the way that every death of a character we had seen and knew was paired with an observer, like was paired with a witness for Tazi. It's will for Lisa. It's Sam for Enza, who this was, I thought the most harrowing stretch here when Dylan, who has already been shot,

is on the ground and then sees her picked up by the spine and hurled and broken and thrown. And that shriek, that like animalistic shriek that he emits as he is the witness for her, I thought. And then later when, when Dilan dies, uh, uh,

And so mass in the scale and scope of the casualty felt so personal and intimate as we watched it through the eyes of the people who were losing their friends, their fellows. Like I just thought was unbelievably impactful. It's so good. And like, it almost seems like witchcraft, the way in which everyone who worked on the show was able to create those connections between those characters and

with very little screen time, with very little time with them. And Cassian is here, sure. Actually, we were talking about Hardhome when we were talking about The Last of Us. It reminds me a lot of Hardhome because Jon Snow and Tormund are there at Hardhome

And that matters that these characters that we know. So it matters that Cassian and Cyril and Dedra and Will are all here at the Gorman Massacre. That matters in terms of anchoring us in perspective. But the genius of Hardhome that we like to talk about is like a character like Carsey, who we just met. And we understand what seeing these

little zombie children like does to her personally inside of her story and so like these you know Enza and and Dilan or or you know all these other characters like we haven't spent a ton of time with them but they matter to each other and so that matters to us uh as well and uh yeah I think this is

such a brilliant observation watching their personal loss Dylan Dylan getting cut gut shot and we're like well that's curtains for that character but no he doesn't die he then has to watch Enza die like it was tremendously brutal is a great word yeah brutal speaking of brutal yeah

this is one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. Serial versus Cassian. I can't believe this was real, but I can because it's Andor, but this just left me gobsmacked and breathless. Um,

Of all the things I wanted to talk to you about today, I think this might be top of the list. And like, have we already talked? We couldn't help ourselves because we just kept talking about it because it's just like... I know. There's still a little bit to say. There's definitely more. I will say for me, I think the thing that we haven't mentioned yet that really struck me is the like berserker nature of Cyril here. And like... The ferocity. Yeah. We have not seen... Like when we last saw Cyril...

uh, in Ferrix both times, he's a cowering kind of guy. Like he's not a fighter. This isn't what he does. And so like to watch him really fight like WWE smash a chair into Cassian's back fight is, uh, incredible. Incredible. Yeah. And also just like Cyril is also, um,

Yeah, fastidious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, right? He's got the piping and the well-fitting hat, and it's about the presentation. One of the really brutal, edie moments with him in season one is like, what do you think you're saying to people with how you present yourself? But this is just a...

obliteration of that. Yeah. Right? There is no, I am presenting myself to the world. It is, I see the person who destroyed my life and it's the only thing I see. This is like an embodiment of myopia and being driven to your doom by the thing that you could not let go. And then to hear the person on the other side say, who are you? Like, first of all, they met. Yeah.

It would be bad enough if Cyril had to confront the fact that the source of his obsession, oh, actually, yeah, like, we never really encountered each other. But that's not the case.

The savagery of the actual fight, the kind of feral, animalistic nature of it, the way that the grenade leads to Cassian having to take cover, and then the moment when Cyril stands over him with Cassian's gun, I thought the messed up hair, the soot, the sweat, the blood, the rage, all of it was just unbelievable. What else do you want to say about

Who are you? And this being the final thing that Cyril hears. And then what do you read in the lowering of the gun? Well, just Kyle Soller. I'm devastated that you're gone. This is an incredible character and an incredible performance. You'll always matter to me. You'll always be the character who led us to have to say on recorded media multiple times, we think fascists are bad. We don't think fascists are good. Always be that guy, Cyril.

I'm going to just take the opportunity to read a couple. I mean, you've got a great Tony Gilroy quote about Cyril Karn that I want to get to, but we got so many Cyril emails and they were all quite lengthy. And so this is the best I could do to sort of encapsulate a couple of things. Alistair McHale wrote, I guess if anyone was going to leap dashingly over the barricades onto the back of his own redemption arc and then hop back off because he got distracted and summarily die doing something stupid, it was Cyril Karn. So like, yes, perfect.

John wrote this really incredible different John than the one I quoted before. A different John wrote this really incredible email that the subject line of which was a serial car and the cardboard man. It was like a, it's like a novel. It's like incredibly good. I've only a part of it here, but John wrote,

He was the kind of guy who was never radicalized by the empire, simply at home. And they made him make his home on Gorman. And then the people adopted him. So of course his loyalties became confused. This is a real thing that happens in trade craft. It's how most double agents or triples, as he might've become with more time, are recruited. And when Dendro reveals that it's all a lie, a means to an end, that's it. In Cyril Karn, we see the breaking point in fascism for even a quote, company man. Revolutions don't happen until the regimes start to lose the Cyrils.

He's angry at Dedra, but I think he really needs it when he jumps that barrier and goes back into the crowd. So like this, I love this line, like revelations don't happen until the regimes start to lose the Cyrils. And this idea that like, yeah, Cyril Karn was never someone who was like, you know who I love? The emperor. He's like, you know what? I love law and order. You know what? I love, you know, an organization and a place to belong. And, um,

Yeah. And the way in which someone to tell me I did a good job is betrayed by this. And it is not until it's a personal betrayal to him and his dignity that it becomes a cause that he cares about, unfortunately. But like, again, what is the tipping point for various people? And for Cyril, it's this and fascism is bad.

And we don't support the Cyril Karnes of the world who gleefully assist in the rise of fascism. But it is an endlessly compelling type to think about and a really incredible performance from Kyle Saller. Agreed. So what do you want to say? I'll read this Gilroy quote again. This is a quote from Tony's interview with Megan O'Keefe at Decider.

I believe it was the THR interview that reminded us that in season one, Gilroy was really like bumping on people calling Cyril a fascist. That was also kind of like interesting to remember in terms of hearing how Gilroy talked about Cyril now at the end. So here's what he said to Megan.

I feel terribly sorry for Cyril. I actually have great affection for Cyril. I think Cyril is a victim in every way. I think he's a romantic and a fantasist. I think he could have just as easily gone in many different directions if he'd been shown any place that there was some love or some light. And then later he adds, and then to stand there and realize that you've destroyed something that you didn't intend to destroy. So...

Yeah. I mean, I think we are meant to pity Cyril at the end and also to judge him and to do both of those things in tandem. And I think that it is, you know, I do love a redemption arc and I do love a, there's nothing more classic than the Star Wars redemption arc on the redemption arc front. But this is, this is riveting. This is human. Like to see a character, yeah, flirt with something else and then fail. People fail. That's our curse. That's what Luthan would say about Cyril. We know it.

This was just so good. What a completely... You used the word indelible earlier. I mean, Cyril is an indelible character to me. Like, this is just all-time stuff. I... It's so funny because, like, I think sometimes we're like, what is wrong with us? We're obsessed with Cyril. But this was a real week to see how true that is for so many people. It's the first person everyone I talked to about and or texted me about. Adam was...

barely able to function. You messaged... I'm watching what happened to Cyril. You messaged Chris and me when you watched the... We had already seen the episodes. And when you watched the episodes, you messaged us and you were like, I am, like, inconsolable. And I just wrote back, Cyril. And you're like, yeah. It's not just, like, how we're not alone. It's just the, like...

I think we're rewarded for our attention that we paid him from the start because whether or not this is always the plan, because in a medium like TV, you should be adapting and changing. And when you see someone like Kyle Soller show up,

the way that he did for Cyril. Like, I think it's a character type that Tony Gilroy was interested in, but when you get a performance as good as this one, and it's just working, then of course you're going to want to use him more and more. I think we were all confused a little bit by how season one ended with Cyril. And so the season two Cyril arc is just,

Just exquisite. Just so good. It really is. Yeah. Oh, my God. The combo of who are you and the lowering of the gun, I'll think about until I die. I really will. And the lowering of the gun is just so perfect. Who are you? Because it's like, it's not, who are you? It's, oh, my God. The lowering of the gun to me, it's like, it's not,

And now I am reformed, you know, and now I will go do all the right things. It's like, I liked the way that Kyle Soller in his THR interviews talked about that. He had some really interesting things to say. He's like, I'm paraphrasing, but he was basically, he's like, he would never be the guy who like went and, and, and, you know, fought in the Death Star. But that doubt and having to confront the mistakes you've made and, and where your own obsession led you and misled you, it's just like in a,

Oh boy. It's a really, really memorable and impactful. Great stuff. Also Rylance being the one to do this. We already talked about this from the Rylance perspective, but it also gave us this one other little delicious element, which is this look that passes between Rylance and Cassian because. Well, this is like not much of a revolutionary, are you? Not much of a revolutionary, are you? Yeah. He's like, Oh, Varian Skye. I see you. You're back. Yeah.

Oh, man. Yeah, Rylance being the one when it could have been Will or it could have been, you know, our concierge or something like that, but it was Rylance. And also Cassian, like, as Cassian is dragged away, he keeps looking back at Cyril of, like, you know, who is this person who was obsessed with me? Like, what was this? What does it mean for someone to hate me this much? Yeah, what was this? Yeah. Yeah.

What is this bigger picture story that I'm unaware is happening around me, you know? Yeah. God. It's time to leave Gorman. Will says, no, I have to go find Drina. And then suddenly the screams erupt again.

The KX droid who will become K2SO. It was very like Bucky is the Winter Soldier kind of for me here. It's like we have now had to see K2SO do some really awful stuff, but he can't be blamed for his programming at the time. You think it was K2SO who threw Enza?

I can't quite face that, I think. I think he just stomped around a bit and waved his arms. And then he threw these people who we didn't know and have an attachment to in the street. They seemed fine. Yeah.

This is where Sam crashes the tank into Kay and rescues Cass and Will. And then this is where we get that little like hand on the back of Will's head. Will, please from Cass. Just incredible stuff. Ferric's going to the stone in the sky. And then we load up Kay. Cassian drives away. Yet another episode that is like really heavily at the end, just focused on Cassian's face and the tears and the pain, like welling up. Just incredible visually. Diego.

Diego, this is your show and I'm sorry I just talked about Kyle Soller for 20 minutes, but like, Diego, you're also amazing. And Cassian's trauma and tears.

As we are listening to Drina. The burden of being the messenger, right? The messenger that can say, oh, the glory. Yeah. No. Like, tell people what happened here. To have to be the one who does that. Oh my God. To be the one who lives. And again, this gets to us, like, Lizanne being the one to hold Dylan. The thing about Lizanne and like Anne Rylance and a number of the other people that we met on Gorman is that

It's going to sound so stupid. They're actors with faces. These are people with faces. And when you think of the way in which we cast, I tend to latch on to those people. If it's an old British man who's been on the stage, I'm like, that's my guy. I'm excited to see what he does. But like...

Nina Gold, who's casting director on Andor as well as Martin Ware. They're both equally listed as casting directors. So I'm not sure if one did one season and one did another or whatever, but I want to shout out the casting work on this show because it's just like,

Like, I mean... Remarkable. I think Adria Arjona is, like, one of the most beautiful people alive. And so it's not like we're not casting beautiful people on this show, but, like, to not just cast, like, shiny, beautiful people, but just to cast people who look so interesting. Yeah. You know, I think...

Denise Goff, who is like, who plays Deirdre, who is like one of our favorites in junket interviews. She is like so delightful, has talked about sort of her like resting trout face and how like her mom always made fun of her for it. But she's like, it's serving me. And she's like, but even sometimes I look at it and I'm like, oh, Jesus Christ. But like her face and like her, her,

Deirdre all alone breaking down pulling at her collar you know like I don't know what direction they gave Denise in this sequence or if they were just like you're having a freak out go but like the choices she made the way she just pulls on her uniform um I this is just like an all time uh character breaks the fuck down moment uh inside of this episode

Really good. I was thinking every time Cassian had Deirdre in his scope of when you asked me last week if you had to pick one person who's going to make it, who would it be? And I was like, Deirdre? And I was like, oh, no. I'll start it off. I'm still kicking at the end. To have another musical corner moment, I will just say Deirdre out on the balcony with her Eva Peron hair. I was just thinking about Evita. Oh, my God. Edie?

Crying, watching the Imperial news. The propaganda machine is already spinning. Fallen heroes, Imperial martyrs. We don't end with Cassian's face. We end with Edie's face. Yeah. Well, I think that's the fitting transition into episode nine because it's the Imperial lies, right? Imperial martyrs. I support this choice because we don't like Edie.

But I feel, you know, Edie watching with her friends as it all unfolded on her little, you know, Fox News 24 hours habit. Like, Edie at the breakfast table watching it, you know, and then like Edie crying at the end. And again, it's like sort of what have you wrought? What is your role in all of this? But also you're allowed to have pain about it too, you know? And she's also definitely like, I told him not to go there. Yeah.

I told him that they were misusing him. We're about to head to Coruscant. Quickly, I'll just also note we're about to talk about some canon updates on the Mon Mothma front. The Cassian K2SO origin story here is completely new. There's a 2017 comic, Rogue One Cassian and K2SO Special Number One, where we thought we knew the origin story, and this is an update. I have to take absolutely no issue with this, but just to remark upon it. This is better. Sorry. Okay. Okay.

This is good to be part of one of the most memorable Secrets of the Ministry of Star Wars. Coruscant. The Senate. This is almost all going to be about Episode IX, but we do have a few minutes there before Episode IX, where before everything that happens on Gorman, we see... First of all, Manan, are you dunking on Cloris? I should ask for a new try, right?

I was just like, don't they might send someone smart, which first of all, I appreciated a moment of levity in these very upsetting three episodes, but also just like Cloris in short order will be lured right into Cassian's blaster fire. So this was a great little. Also been like a really good character throughout in terms of like, he's just a deeply inept spy, but he's been there spying the whole time.

So, so good. I loved when like, he gets yelled at for calling back to the ISV and they're like, we told you to check in if you had an update. It's great. So, they might send someone smart, like just like sort of draw, it was just like, Erskine, you make this, you made a great point earlier, like,

I would have loved more of the Mon Erskine relationship throughout the show and maybe last season as well. It just would have been really fun to watch. Like, I think this is a great episode for him, for Erskine.

And I think the actor playing him is great. Yeah. And I would have just loved even more of this. Again, this is like an aside of a like, if we had a third season or whatever, could we, you know, because we get that. And I was so glad to have it in the previous season, but we do get, as you mentioned, this like Erskine encounter with Luthan at the party where he's talking about Nebu and Gorman and stuff like that. And Luthan's like, dude.

I have an idea, right? No cocktail chatter at a party unused by Luthan. Right, exactly. But to see what was that conversation? How was it for Erskine to get recruited? What is the tipping point for him? What is the pressure point for him? I would have loved to see. I'm with you. I do like that we just... For Luthan, it's kind of a fun little satisfying, oh yeah, reminder, he's always on the clock. But I'm with you for Erskine. I would have liked to better understand. Was the sales pitch...

You won't get to tell her, but then I'll be able to say one day that you protected her in ways that she never knew. Like, how did she assess... It is so pissed that Luthan outed him to Mon. Brutal! It's like, also, we're prepping for some important work here. Come on, the timing, my guy. But yeah, I think for me with Erskine and Mon, it's mostly to jump ahead a little bit. When she walks in, as always, a big...

beautifully delivered line and bit of acting, but, you know, I'm not sure I've ever felt so betrayed. From just as a person who, like, loves Mon and is invested in Mon, it's devastating because when she says, like, and I've had some experience that part of Mon Mothma's

Part of the essence of the Mon Mothma experience is that she is always feeling like on the outside of the thing or the relationship that she was supposed to have. But it is just, I think, kind of undeniably, Lindbergh wrote about this in his piece too, like, I don't think we know enough about their relationship to feel that. So that's like a rare note, I think, inside of these largely exquisite episodes. The other thing that happens here at the beginning before the Gorman massacre in the Senate is this moment between

Ambassador Oren and Mon. And as we recall from last arc, he was one of the figures who refused to sort of join her P.O.R.D. challenge and had to weigh what that would mean for Gorman. What's so interesting about him is like,

Was he right? I can't tell if he was right or wrong. Because, like, the first time I watched it through, I was like, here he's paying for his earlier political cowardice. But when he tells her, like, I'm just trying to keep everyone calm. Again, to your point, there is no winning inside of this Gorman situation. There is no right move. I think that's what I was feeling. It's just like, the damned if you do, damned if you don't. Like, they have been ensnared. And...

I really loved this little moment because, first of all, it connects to this larger through line across these episodes about truth and lies. You know, the way he said they have no shame. They don't even bother to lie badly anymore. I suppose that's the final humiliation. My God. But I really loved when he thanked her. He said, your constant courage, the brave face you put to the world. I've done a poor job of letting you know how much I admire your grace. Yeah.

and energy. To me, this felt like the show taking a moment to say why it cares about Mon Mothma as a character, that it's about all the stuff she did before the big thing here, because obviously the big grand spectacle that draws all the eyes and gets all the attention, calling this a genocide, naming Palpatine, that cannot be understated in its heft and consequence and the bravery and courage that we're required to do this. It cannot. But as Mon herself will say to Bale,

nothing will be harder than the thing we've done all this time. And like for Mon to like fight for so long in a different way before now fighting in this way, it fits very well with what you noted at the top of the pod about the phases and the evolution of each person's relationship to the rebellion. But I don't know. I just like,

It's easy to praise the character who does the big thing. So I loved that Ma got this little moment before. And I like that we had last week her trying to whip votes on, you know, trying to work inside the system, trying to whip votes around something that was connected to Narkeena. So something that we were already keenly aware of. The fact that, like, so then we get this arrest of Oren. Troopers in the Senate chamber. Nobody says anything about

you know, he's like yelling about this, right? It's my people today, maybe yours tomorrow. And, you know, it's very much like the first they came for the socialists and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Like, you know, when you stand idly by and just watch this happen, you know, anyway, Mon is not standing idly by, but a lot of people in that building are. A lot of people are. A lot of people are.

Mon and bail. Plotting and scheming, scheming and plotting. Plots and schemes are the same thing. Joe? I got a text from someone who shall not be named who said, poor Jimmy Smiths for missing out on this. He could have finally had a good scene inside of a Star Wars property.

Dude, this is like, Bale has some incredible scenes in this episode. I mean, I think Benjamin Bratt did a really great job. I thought Benjamin Bratt did a great job. Yeah, he was awesome. And I love a recast. I think I said this before, but again, this heals something inside of me that continuously hurts every time I see that Tarkin bullshit that they pulled in Rogue One. And I'm just sort of like, just recast, man. It's fine. But yeah, I think Benjamin Bratt is great here.

They've gone too far and we all know it, Mon says to Bale. We need to speak out. We need to stand up and speak the truth. And then we need to leave both of us. This is this idea that you've been teasing in previous weeks and then breaking down beautifully today, this final spark, this thing that you can no longer ignore. And there's this interesting little discussion here because Bale tells Mon that he can't go

Right? He has to stay. They're not ready. Yavin is not ready. And I liked when she called upon the shared history and compared to what nothing we will ever do will be as hard as hiding all these years. Just a reminder of how long they've both been doing this. How long they've both been in the fight and working in the shadows. Was your sense at all that anything inside of Bale's decision here has to do with Leia? Like...

You know, when he's talking about it's not so easy. Like he has his other thing to do, but like he's also protecting this other thing that Mon doesn't have on her plate, you know?

Yeah, maybe. I mean, I think it's interesting because, like, I think the only entirely possible, I think, like, this is where some of the connections in general to Rebels get a little confusing for me because, like, when we see Mon give the speech in Rebels, Bail is, like, next to Dodonna in one of the locations we see. So, but also, like, Leia was so involved by this point, you know, that I don't know. It's...

This is one where I'm kind of like, I don't, maybe I shouldn't stop and think about this too long because then the other canon, like, I guess it does. I don't know how well Bale being like, it's a little confusing, but obviously then it all leads to him being like, tear the shit out of this place. Tear the shit out of this place. Frankly remarkable. So good. Oh God, Bale. I did think it was really interesting when Mon asked him later after the talk with Luthor, like, do you trust your people?

And do you know them? He's like, yeah, I trust them. Do I know them? No, I can't. Just to remind us of like who these people are and who they're surrounded by and what every single moment, what a risk it is to do what they're doing. I thought that was well reinforced here. Tell me what you made of this incredible scene between Clea and Cassian when he's back on Coruscant for his next assignment. Ronnie has another byline to deliver. Yeah.

Ronnie Guja. Yeah. Can I guess? You're tired. It's too much. It's too hard. Like, play a queen icon. Always. When she wears her hair down. I just think this is incredibly...

great stuff from Clea who has had such a good season. And I think this idea of like, I need to start making my own decisions. I thought that's what we were fighting for so good in terms of Cassian is the he of the now and she's thinking of, you know,

the things we will not live to see. Like, this idea of making your own decisions is not something that everyone can do, and aren't we fighting for everyone to be able to do that? Do you know? Right. Yeah. I love that. I like thinking, too, about how Nemec's words and lessons for Cassian might be, not only on our minds, but sweet Nemec, on Cassian's here, too, because...

you know, I'm done. I'm done after this. I need to start making my own decisions. Like one of the most impactful parts of Nemec's manifesto that not a part, not something that Nemec said to Cassian directly in Aldani, but something that we then hear later in the finale of season one, the Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny, I don't,

Didn't mean to do unlimited power voice for saying unnatural, but maybe it's getting unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks. It leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear. Remember that and know this. The day will come when all these skirmishes and battles, these moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the empire's authority and then there will be one too many. One single thing will break the siege. Remember this. Try.

If one of the impulses is I'm done, then the counterweight has to be try. And like, obviously try is a central idea in Star Wars. And I just love thinking about how Nemec's words, obviously everything that happens with Bix here is going to be central to what Cassian does next, but also to think of how Cassian might still be carrying that lesson from Nemec with him too. These moments for Cassian that are like,

Yeah. Literal letters that he has to carry with him. I know. Our messenger. My God. Okay, this is where Luthan just walks into the middle of the Senate Chamber Plaza. I honestly didn't understand. I love this episode, but I did not understand. I want to go to Spain. I'm going to Valencia. You can't stop me. Put me on set with my other wig. No wig? Luthan, not even a hood? No murder cloak? So...

I think the thing that I was, I get, I actually, the thing I like about this, both here with Luthan Amon and then later with Luthan and Clea and, and Cassian is like, well, it, it heightens the sense of where we are, what the moment that we have arrived at at last. We're in the end game now. We're in the end game now. But like, then I, I, I will be honest, like it,

Then I'm a little confused by how much of the back and forth in this stretch hinges on the threat of Mon getting arrested. I'm like, if they want to find out who Mon Mothma is in cahoots with, all they need to do is check the security cams. You're right there. I thought this was slightly strange. But I did like both of these scenes. Maybe it's like Coop on your friends and neighbors. Luthan has a remote control that kills any cameras that are in the near vicinity. Yeah.

Is that a thing? Not a reference, I understand, because I have not seen the show. It's a preposterous development that happened to your friends and neighbors after this character has broken into so many homes. He's like, P.S., by the way, halfway through the season, he's like, by the way, I have this remote control that kills any security cameras so that they can't see me coming. Handy. Okay. Speaking of handling devices that people might use to detect your activities...

The reason that Mon and Luthan are chatting in the first place is because Erskine does find a listening device. Mon smashes it. This alerts our guy Falzonis from that great season one scene with Dendro. Here he is back. And the ISB, okay, Chloris already sent a report. Now this is out, so they're paying attention.

If you find a bug, call Irvin. Yeah, I don't smash it. No, I just don't talk in front of it. No, it's not just that. You make other plans. You make wrong plans in front of the bug. Yeah, yeah. Can't wait to go to the Senate today and not say anything. I haven't even bothered. The agenda has been set. I haven't even bothered to drink any water today because I have no speeches to make at the Senate.

I have no opinion on what the Spice King from Qarth might say and whether he will infringe on me. Can't we just sit silently at the Senate today? Yeah, it's us. That's not what happens. Amon smashes it and Erskine's like, I'm going to keep looking. You better go out to the plaza. Practice your speech out there. Wild stuff from these two. Wild stuff. This is where she learns the truth about Erskine, where Luthen tells her, just as is always the case in a Mon-Luthen scene,

I mean, there's just, it's so charged in both directions between them. She's like, do you remember my friend Takeoma? And what I love about this is like, it's been two years since Takeoma died. That's just something that we have to remember. It's not remember two weeks ago when you killed, when you had Cinta flip the car. When you had Cinta turn the car over. Yeah.

It's remember two years ago at a wedding when you decided instant that my pal take coma should die. I still think about it years later. Be honest with us. Was there a party that was like, are they going to confirm right now how he died? Are they going to say it? No, but I think it was possible. Oh,

I don't know that I asked CR to ask Tony. I know that he already talked to him for their finale episode. I asked him. Oh, did you? To ask. I don't think he did, but I did ask him. I did. We deserve to know. I did. I agree. I agree. Yeah, I thought the Tay part was incredible for the reason you're saying, just reminding us of the time. But then what Mons says to him, I think about it often, how quickly you decided he was a risk, how quickly all that happened.

Luthen talks about being bent by secrecy, but again, for Mon, it's like, where do I go? Where do I look? Who do I turn to? Erskine, the betrayal of my life. But from Luthen, it's like,

I need this person to do this thing and believe that I am here to help. I have a person, Cassian, who I will send. I rely on him. She can too. And nobody believes each other. Like what a place for this to have wound up. I thought this was like really great. And Mon saying,

That the thing that she fears here is Luthen when last episode, not last episode, last arc, last week, we heard Cassian say something very similar. Last year. Last year, yeah. We heard Cassian when, you know, Bix was like, was it dangerous? And he's like, the only thing that I'm scared about right now is Luthen. Like, for Luthen's own people to talk about him that way. But when he says, I don't know everything, Mon, but I know what I owe you, that feels really true. It does. That he knows that and believes it. I think you're right to flag that Luthen feels...

quite different to, to BBY is a, is a, is a year of change and transformation for Luthan. Yeah. We're leaving the wig at home and we're growing a con for a different one. We're leaving one wig at home. Yeah. Oh man. Um, what else do you want to hit on the, uh, Mon Erskine front in terms of this betrayal? Good. Okay. Um,

We talked about the origin of the spying, and so now it is time for the extraction teams to arrive after our beloved Erskine is dismissed. Cassian, this is where Cassian and Clea and Luthen speak, and he tries to convince Luthen to go to Yavin, and Luthen says, no, Yavin, for me. We already talked about that part of it. Steve the Shire, but not for me. The part of this exchange that we haven't talked about quite as much is...

you've stayed here long enough. I'm not finished yet. They're going to find you, Luthan. You act as if we had a choice. Eventually they'll hang us both, won't they? We set that course the first time we met. Speak for yourself. You see no truth in that. I make my own decisions. Then we did talk about the rest of this with Luthan's reply. But we talked about this from the inevitability for Luthan of the sunrise. I'll never see the absence of the gratitude. But just in terms of like now thinking back to the beginning of his relationship with Cassian and his recruitment of him and like...

saying in episode four after they escaped Ferex in season one, it doesn't matter what you tell me or yourself, you'll ultimately die fighting these bastards. Wouldn't you rather give it all at once to something real? The pitch from Luthen was never, and we're going to enjoy the thing that we helped bring about. We're going to win, and you and your hot girlfriend slash wife and your robot are going to live happily ever after. Sweet bee.

I just need a quick B update. Even if it's like in a flash and a montage at the end, like I just need to see B once more next week. I just can't really handle it. I don't think. Bale's team arrives. We discussed this part already as well. And so it is time for Mon Mothma to make her speech. Joe, a speech for the ages. All of our evil senators.

Say they're evil things. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. I wrote one down that like... Is it about the broth? Yeah. Yeah, it's a great one. The tragic broth we sipped this morning has been brewing in plain sight. The tragic broth we sipped this morning has been brewing in plain sight.

It's great. It's great. Actually, sorry, before we go, I don't know how to parse this, but I do feel like it needs to be saying, and we don't have to get into it too much. It is wild for Dan Gilroy to write the line next year in Yavin for Bail Organa. That is a very loaded statement, and I don't know. Anyway, I don't know what's meant by it, but it's wild that it's in here. Anyway. Speaking of Bail. Mm-hmm.

He invokes Article 17-252, yields his time to Mon, and Mon speaks. The ISB is desperately trying and failing to cut this feed. I loved on the Friends Everywhere front, the security guy being sent to cut the feed and he can't get in because...

two members of the cause have, uh, locked the door and hit the keys up on a different level. Oh, we fixed it. Like, cause that was just a great little touch. Um, and then Mons pod moves forward and she speaks and,

The distance between what is said and what is known to be true has become an abyss, she says. Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous. The death of truth is the ultimate victory of evil. When truth leaves us, when we let it slip away, when it is ripped from our hands, we become vulnerable to the appetite of whatever monster screams the loudest. This is...

This theme and this through line, we heard it from Rylance to Cyril, from Auron to Mon, Drina and her dispatch to the entire galaxy, the murder of Gorman. The appetite of whatever monster screams the loudest is so good in terms of like that idea of the Empire devouring the galaxy and also the monster, whatever monster screams the loudest is like noise that cuts through all the chatter, right? But also like

The monster that screams, that best triggers our fears, which is again what like fascistic rise to power is about, is about targeting your specific fears and exploiting them. Right. Really good language. Right.

This chamber's hold on the truth was finally lost on the Gorman Plaza. What took place yesterday, what happened yesterday on Gorman was unprovoked genocide. Yes, genocide. And that truth has been exiled from this chamber. And the monster screaming the loudest, the monster we've helped create, the monster who will come for us all soon enough, is Emperor Palpatine.

Padme's This Is How Liberty Dies. Gonna just have to move down the list here. I was thinking, okay, wait. Say more about that. Because you're just saying like in terms of things said, tremendously stunning, memorable things said in the Senate chamber, This Is How Liberty Dies doesn't really rank anymore. I was just sort of thinking about how she was like, yeah.

Yeah. You know, to thunderous applause. She's just sort of like, wow, this is upsetting and horrible and blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, but if I'm going to stand up and give a speech. Exactly. Yeah. The kind of like meme in the shadow versus the actual explicit saying of the thing. Are you brave enough to say it out loud? She's like, oh, this is how liberty dies? Nobody says anything. Everyone's just clapping. I'm like, girl, you have a microphone and a little pod thing that goes up and out into the floor if you want to use it.

And you're going to die of sadness anyway, so you might as well go out with a speech. You're breaking my heart. Let's chat briefly about the simultaneous updating and tweaking of canon and connection to canon. Because part of the reason that we knew this speech was coming, that we knew the Gorma Massacre was coming, is because of established...

canon in this timeline from the animated television series Star Wars Rebels. So this is like, I think again, like kind of simultaneously an updating, but not a complete abolishment of

you know that rewrite the story line that we hear in this episode feels very purposeful because it was the only thing that I like bumped on like I thought it was good it was too much no no I mean I thought it was good but I was just sort of like this like I think they did a pretty good job of trying to connect the story they want to tell with the story that had already been written like I think they did a pretty good job but they had to like grind the gears a little bit to make it

work and it doesn't actually still quite work, but that's okay. It's okay. Yeah. I think that like, if you love Star Wars Rebels, you know, as, uh, as I do, as we do, I don't think this like shatters a thing, you know, from, from season three, uh, episode 18, secret cargo, like a really great moment in that stretch of the story where, um,

Ezra and Hera and Zeb and co. are specters as part of Phoenix Squadron and sync up with the Gold Squadron to receive the secret cargo and are part of how Mon gets from making the speech at the Senate to this next speech and this declaration of open rebellion.

Many of the particulars are different. Obviously, the language of the speech that we, because it opens actually with them watching like a hollow snippet of the Senate speech before then we hear Amman give her new speech. We'll share a quote momentarily.

about the creative decision to update the text that is like frankly remarkable. But, you know, there are like plenty of things that are different. Even like Erskine is in that episode of Rebels and he's like, we've got to get you in hiding to Shandrila.

And then obviously on Andor, that is like not the role that Erskine is playing. I already mentioned that we see Bail in many different snippets of different rebel factions across various locations in the galaxy. But like he's next to Dodonna, not like I've got to stay at the Senate to keep some work going here. And obviously he could sneak away to like a secret meeting as he has been doing for many points in time. But even like they're going to Dantooine, that's where all of the rebel ships are going to go, et cetera. But,

The core thing, which is Mon makes this speech because of what happened on Gorman and announces the rebellion. That's the key thing. And they did preserve that. And they also explain how, um, gold squadron and our rebel characters could come into play. So I thought I, yeah, it's, it reminded, it's like, there's a little bit of like a fire and blood house of the dragon aspect to this, like, especially later in the, the Draven Cassian conversation where it's like, you know,

what really happened and how much do we really know now it's a little different if you're reading a fictional history versus watching a canon show exploring the events but here's what tony gilroy had to say to entertainment weekly about this i was reading this like wow what are they gonna do fire him he's done holy shit this is actually like a wild thing to say because it's so easy to be like we wanted to do it a little bit differently but also respect what had transpired

in Star Wars Rebels under Dave Filoni's watch. But that is not what he said. Here's what he said. Quote, we are hijacking canon. In canon, she's rescued by the Gold Squadron and the speech is given. The cartoon, which was a canonical show, brackets, is on that ship. The ghost. And Danny's like, dang it, right? Do I have to stick to this fucking speech?

And then he adds, in a really sneaky way, we're minimizing what they did in Star Wars Rebels, but we're keeping it consistent. We're just saying you don't really know the whole story of what happened.

frankly a wild thing to say but you have to admire it so if you have any doubt I've been hearing for years that people Lucasfilm don't outside of Kathy Kennedy who loves Tony Gilroy don't really like Andor and they don't like the way that people always talk about Andor being the quote unquote good one and like all that sort of stuff like that sure and I was like why like a win is a win or whatever but you know um

Yeah, the Filoni-Gilroy civil war happening inside of Lucasfilm. And, like, to be fair, it's not even, like, really a civil war because, like, it's Filoni's house to a certain degree and Gilroy just got to get away with doing two seasons of masterful television in a way that, like...

I have heard from so many other people who have gone in to pitch Lucasfilm and have not made it past the Filoni wall. And Tony Gilroy sort of snuck his way around via his relationship with Kathy Kennedy. But I just wish Lucasfilm was open to...

all these very exciting different ways to tell a Star Wars story because Andor is so incredible. And I really wish that they could look at Andor, which I know is not their most popular show, but like could look at Andor and be like, wow, we want to do more. That's what we want to do. Like that's, that's, I wish that were the lesson and I'm not sure it is the lesson. Yeah. But we are lucky to have Andor as that is for certain. Yeah.

We are. I also feel we're lucky to have Rebels. I love Rebels. I love Andorra. This is like, well, don't make me choose between my divorce papers. It's not. You're right. It's fascinating in terms of what it speaks to. Yeah, but it's just sort of like, why can't we have all of it? And the idea that we can only have one narrow flavor or interpretation of what a Star Wars story should be is disappointing. Yeah.

Agreed. Certainly. Mon and Cassie and Flea. Before we do that, I just need to say that our listener Maddie said, the important question, who do you think gave Mon Mothma the haircut from when we see her next canonically in Rebels? Wow. I mean, this is really like... Because when we see her on the ghost, she's got her sad Mon hair. So here's what I'm going to go with. If... I guess this will be confirmed or denied when we watch next week's episodes, but...

I'm going to go with if they can change the literal things that she said, they can also change her hair. But if next week she has that hair and she needs to by Rogue One, then we do have to ask now, maybe this is part of the overall, we have the lovely symbolism of shedding as they're escaping the Senate coat to be cloaked in the garb of the rebellion in Cassian's coat. And obviously that's very practical. We're on the run. We're going to hide you, but also...

symbolically rich. Maybe it's just part of the overall rebrand. You know? Yeah, he's like... I mean, travel, it's not instantaneous. You can no longer wear Shendral in blue and also no more hair products for you. Just let it flop, baby. Let it flop down. All right, let me throw this out there and answer to Maddie's question. You know who has great hair? Perrin. What if... I was going to say Erskine.

Erskine does have great hair. That's another thing. Erskine's hair really on display here in Rebels. He's wearing the helmet. Yeah, what if instead of never seeing Perrin again, she's like, listen, I know your firebrand days are behind you, but... Do you still have those scissors? The clippers? Can you give me a number four all over? I love the idea that Erskine, with his Bucky Barnes hair, gave Mon her makeover.

I'm into it. I'm into it. I hope we find out great stuff. Um, we do find out how I'm on escape the Senate and it is Cassian and our folks. Now this is just incredible. Like it's, and also like seeing, sorry, go ahead. No, go, go ahead. Well, I already, I already called out the set, which again is a, is a real location, uh, in Spain, but the joy of having a practical built, you know, this is a museum that they've used or science center. Um,

Like, so the shot of the wide shot of them like running down the stairs and it's just like, this is a real place. And they are really, this is not shot in the volume. They're really running down those stairs at this absolutely incredible place. And I just think. That was fascinating. I loved that on that exterior stair shot when they're escaping after killing Cloris. I loved like where you could see other people who were like panicking and who was just sort of like walking out slowly. But in the other stair shot, the interior stair shot overhead, it made me think of Silo.

Like how these halls of power would be built in a way to control your movement and slow you down. I thought that was really interesting. Did it make you think of Matt Murdock non-lethally making his way down a stairwell? He's not there to kill. Might just dangle a few people by the metal chains. Yeah.

This is obviously like a really just like exciting and propulsive action sequence. How are they going to get away? People are pursuing them. When Cassian kills the ISB plan and Mon gasps, when he kills Cloris and Mon gasps, it's like the, you know, how nice for you times two, basically having to confront the death vector.

This place has been memed to shit in a great way. And it should live forever as a meme because it is extraordinary. Speaking of extraordinary, I thought of all the things, because it's not easy for Cassian to convince Mon to go with him and trust him. And he's like, Vel, anyone could say that. Aldani, Yavin. Maybe it's just the urgency of what unfolds in front of them that left her with no choice. But the last part of the pitch is, I know Luthen can be hard. He does that, doesn't he? That's what sold it.

He does that. The way he calls Cloris when he's like, hey! That was a real... That was like maybe one of the most Han moments I've ever seen for Cassian. Incredible. Really, really good. They go to the safe house where Cassian and Bix had lived. I like how Maude observed, like you're familiar with this place and Cassian shared that he had lived there. Did you think for a second...

When we see the mangled leg that it was Luthen before we realized it was Will. No. I was like, what happened? Will made it back with Drina by his side, injured. And it is time to head back to Yavin, but not before one final exchange between Mon and Cassian, which is, not sure I can make it up to you. Not sure I can ever thank you. And what does he say? Make it worth it. Very of a piece with Wynne. Wynne.

It's time to talk about Bix's decision. I loved as we watched Will Unloaded and Draven and Cassian talk, and he asked who Drina is.

And Cass says she survived the Gorma Masker. She'll fit right in. This is when Vel checks in in Melshi, and we're seeing the ranks swell. I was thinking of Nemec again. Freedom is a pure idea. It occurs spontaneously and without instruction. Random acts of insurrection are occurring constantly throughout the galaxy. There are whole armies, battalions that have no idea they've already enlisted in the cause. Remember that the frontier of the rebellion is

And even the smallest act of insurrection pushes our lines forward. Like you really felt that in this moment. I love that because Mel she was already, you know, he's in Rogue One case. People don't know.

That's why we were so excited to see him on Narkeen at five last season. Melchie, you're going to make it all the way to Scarif. But... And then no further. I was wondering if Drina was like someone that we had like seen in Rogue One or something like that, but I couldn't find anything. But I did find some canonical evidence, canonical evidence that there were Gorm and Massacre survivors at Yavin. So like that she is sort of fulfilling that, like, you know. Yeah.

Some people survived and they came here. Ugh. Trina. Will. Learned from those two. She's French. I loved on the Luthan front, too, when Cassian was like, what is Luthan one? And Clea said, like, for Will to have a doctor. Like... Did you believe that? Like...

Yes, only because I feel like if that wasn't, if Luthor wanted something else, he would have told them. That's always what he's done, you know? And so that's my part of why it felt like to me like a little bit of a shift in a way. I'm really interested to see what that looks like for the finale next week. Joanna, Bix and Cassian.

Tell me everything. How are you? Are you okay? Hold me. Can you crawl through the blank and hold me? I can't. I honestly can't handle this. It's too much. Am I deeply upset? Like, was this, like, kind of clear? Like, I was like, oh, she's leaving. Like, it felt like that was clear before he woke up. But...

I'm relieved on the like, does Kim Wexler lives in Better Call Saul? Like does Bix Killeen have to die in order for Cassian to be motivated in Rogue One? No, she makes this active decision to leave and we can decide what that means for her. And as we will, but I thought it was really interesting. We did get a really interesting longing memo from our listener, Fran. Um,

who wrote in about Bix as like a little disappointed where her arc ends up here. Fran wrote at the beginning of season one, she was the one involved with Luth and Long before Cassian. And then after all of her traumatic experiences, the end of season two, episode six seemed to suggest that she was preparing to take a more active role in the rebellion again. And yet in this arc, she is stuck in this lovely little forest hut on Yavin for making tea and talking to people about her partner's career.

I hate being disappointed in the show, but I am in Bix's story. We know she's a good mechanic. We know she believes in rebellion. So why couldn't she have been running a repair shop on Yavin, fixing up busted equipment and weaponry? Why can't she be doing field work? It feels like an extraordinary, enormously missed opportunity, and it means her entire plot now seems to revolve around pushing Cassian along his story. This choice with Bix also means that Cassian is far too separate on Yavin 4.

And we seem to be replaying the story where he has one foot out of the rebellion. What happened to kill me or take me in? We did the story with Cassian already, and we did in Rogue One with Jyn Erso. There are characters in Yavin 4 who are important to Cassian and his development into Rogue One, such as Melchi and General Draven. And the departure of Vix means Cassian wasn't even present or seemingly especially interested in the rebuilding of K2SO. I can't help but think that seeing Cassian and Vix in that growing community of rebellion would have been more interesting than what we got.

End of the email. So on the one hand, like there's, there are ways in which I kind of agree with Fran. And then the other hand, I will say, I think part of what she's critiquing at the end there is rather the point of Bix saying, you're not in if I'm here. If I'm here, you're not in. And if I'm gone, maybe you will leave.

start listening to Draven, he won't bond with Melchie, bond with K2SO, be really in, fully in present in the rebellion. Does that mean that her, and she is making an active choice. She's the one who got to kill Gorist. She's deciding to leave. She's making an active choice. But are all of those choices oriented around Cassian who is being positioned as this like

special, important messenger? Yes. And does that feed into some regrettable gender optics that have existed in media as long as media has been all around? Yes. And so I think it's a fair, like half of a fair critique, I would say. But I would say that I think having Cassian distant from Yavin is, in 2BBY, is important to see where he is in 1. And we did get another email from a listener who was like,

Again, how many times is Cassian in and out? And I can kind of agree with that, but I would guess I would say the road to rebellion is not smooth or clean or one arc up. And the way that he would be two steps forward, one step back makes sense to me, but it does underline...

I will say we've been saying, hey, man, it should have been three seasons or, hey, man, we would have loved five seasons. I don't think I would have loved to watch Cassie and do this dance for five seasons. For two seasons, yeah, I'm not bumping on it. But if this were like, I'm in, I'm out, I'm in, I'm out for five seasons, that would have been, I think, a little harder to enjoy. Yeah.

if that makes sense yeah i think on the like the path isn't linear um point i i agree and i think cassian being a character who like asks marvel to leave ask bix to leave says nothing is worth more than that is actually like it's true that he's a fighter and he's a soldier and he's a pilot and he's a leader leader whether or not he wants to be and it's also true that when he like has someone he loves who's the most important person in the world sometimes he's like

haven't we given enough? Like, he's, you know, he is the guy who said to Luthen, I give you everything. And Luthen's like, this is everything? And so for that to be kind of like... Jyn Erso, I guess he's not that into you, I guess, is the point. Yeah, exactly. But he does have to, like, build to the point of Rogue One where saying, I couldn't face myself if I gave up now, after everything we've now seen as part of his story, like, I think that will land really differently for us when we revisit Rogue One having, after we complete Andor next week. Like, I think that's...

And then just more generally, we have everything inside of their relationship and their history. I agree. I think it would have been great to have more time with Bix and to know what Bix was doing and how Bix was spending her time. I think what we got last week on the like, but if I'm giving up everything I want to win, we have to front.

That sense of clarity for Bix felt established for me, I think. And like, then we have this interesting, you know, one of the things Andor does really well where we have something inside of a relationship that then applies more broadly and like, which of these pairs, which of these people, um,

How does everybody... Who is willing to give up everything? Who thinks that they should have to? Who challenges that contention? Who says, well, if I give up everything, what am I fighting for? I just am continually fascinated in how the characters are engaging with that idea on the show and who's like, no. I think similar to Gorman, there isn't a right answer. There isn't a right answer of like, oh, yes, you have to have relationships or else you can't be in rebellion or...

If you're too distracted or too invested in what you personally want and not thinking of the larger cause, you need both, I think, inside of the umbrella of rebellion. And Cassian is not someone who can hold on to that, that he's like in or out sort of idea. I loved in terms of like the way this was deployed, the fact that we like, you know, hear her speech over him running around looking for her.

Anguish-inducing. Carved together with this direct address to camera. It was a real...

Jonathan Demme, iconic sort of close-up direct address to camera, you know, Silence of the Lambs Philadelphia-esque sort of framing of her. I thought it was so good. Again, in the vein of Kyle Soller, if this is the last we see of Andrea Arjona, like, I think she's been so good on this show. Yeah, fantastic. And also, I just really love looking at her face. And I'm going to miss her if this is all we see of Victoria McSplain.

Me too. I'm choosing for the both of us. I'm choosing the rebellion. And when it's done, when it's over and we've won, we can do all the things we ever wanted. Everything we know we've missed. I'll find you. But she won't. But she won't. And that is genuinely incredibly sad. Oh, God. We got a little comedy at the end.

God. Yeah. Just when we needed him, K2SO has arrived. K2 is here. I really enjoyed when the tech, you know, we get a lot of like the key phrases we need, right? The cortex and impulse suppression. But when he was like, you know, here, goggles, protect yourself. And Cassie's like, I'll just take a weapon. And then the little gesture to the guy who then backs off. Very, very funny. Very good. But yeah, like on the one hand, there's something about hearing people

K2SO's signature voice and the humor that made me really, I don't know, I felt a comfort there, but then I felt this, like, just the specter of the end, you know? Like, we just are so close to the end. That's a good way to put it. I also think it's just quite sad that Cassian's best friend, nope, that's going to get me kicked off the pod to say, like, it's a droid. It's fine that your best friend's a droid, but, like, if that means, like... He should have two best friends and the other one

Should also be a droid because he should find beef. He has two best friends who are droids, but like he used to have a wife and a Brasso and a mom, you know, and like, yeah, I love that K2 is here. Did you, did you see the clip from Celebration where they talked about what was on their trailers?

No. They had, you know, all the actors had code names on their trailers. So, so like spy cams couldn't identify who was on set. And for Alan Tudyk's trailer, it said old pal, which is so cute. And he's like, I just thought that was so cute. And Diego Lin is like, mine said Carlos. He was like, I'm the Mexican actor. So they put Carlos on my trailer.

Oh my God. The way you told it is like really funny. Anyway. Old pal. Old pal is here. Friends everywhere, Joe. Friends everywhere. We did it. I think we have tied but not broken our record. I think this brings us in actually just shy of a couple House of the Dragon episodes from last season. By like two minutes. I told myself this morning, I was like, this is going to be a four-hour podcast. That's a... We are a couple minutes shy. I knew for...

I thought we might go to five. Wow. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with me, but I honestly think this is reasonable and frankly, like, disciplined. Oh, God. Joe, this was genuinely special. True delight. God, it's been wonderful to watch this show and talk about it with you. It's deeply fucked up of Disney that we only get four weeks of this show. It's not fair and it's not right. We should have 12 weeks of this show.

I really agree. I am also loving watching it three at a time every week. Yeah. It's like, oh, God. Thank you. Not only is this a four-hour podcast, but it's one that we moved today and it's one that the team rallied to figure out how to produce. So always thank you, but thank you especially today to Carlos Chiriboga, who was like, yeah, I can jump on with you guys on a Friday. Legend, icon, always. Thank you to Steve Allman, who...

We'll be jumping in on the edit after Legend Icon. Arjuna Ramgopal, who literally just got back from vacation and is like, I'll be there, guys, to help. Our team is the best. And thank you, as always, to Jomia Deneron for his help on the social. Joanna, I don't need to ask who you are. You're the love of my life. This was so wonderful.

Oh my God. If I ever leave you, it won't be in a Dear John video that I've recorded for you. Thank you. Though if I do need a good night's rest and you want to give me a very potent tea, I wouldn't mind. That's good.