'Andor' Showrunner Tony Gilroy on World-Building, the Ideology of 'Andor,' and Characters He'll Miss Writing For
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Check out the Apple Card Daily Cash Calculator to see how much daily cash you can earn. Visit apple.co slash card calculator today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. Greetings and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin.

She's coming home to herself and tomorrow she's coming home to me because she's driving down to Los Angeles. It's Joanna Robinson. My, I cannot wait for our listeners to hear some of the things that are in store for them inside of this episode. We're talking to Tony Gilroy today. Tony Gilroy is here. The whole pod is a Tony Gilroy interview. What an absolute fucking thrill.

And if you're going to ask, hey, did Mallory get emotional talking about a droid? She did. Hey, did Mallory get horny talking about Cyril and Dedra? She did. It's all there waiting for you inside of this interview. And, you know, similarly, if you're like, did Joanna ask about the Maya Bay Brigade? She did.

So everybody was extremely themselves, basically. But seriously, we had an incredible time talking to Tony, looking back at the entire Andor experience, not just the finale, all of it, the entire show, the entire second season, the series, what it has meant to Star Wars fans. Really wonderful to hear from him and chat about this beautiful show and everything.

And if you're like, boy, you guys did a Rogue One pod last week. Now you're doing this. You can't stop talking about Andor. Correct. Who knows what we will figure out next week? I don't know. Probably something. Sure. We'll figure it out. Ranking Will's girlfriends. There's only two of them. That we know of. That we know of. Here's what we do know for sure is coming on the programming front. We are.

as mentioned, going to be in person together, Joanna, later this week. And our beloved pal, Rob Mahoney, will also be here. And so the three of us are getting together and we're doing a House of R draft together. We are doing one of our, I would say, least easy to explain and understand House of R draft rubrics, which is the

Build the best X movie. We've done it for Batman. We've done it for Spider-Man. It is just a really fun way to look at a larger franchise. The social team hates to see us coming. You know. Yeah. Here we are. We will be doing this for Mission Impossible. Build the best Mission Impossible movie. And it is just a fun way on the heels of Final Reckoning to look back at all of the other movies. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, we'll have a chance to get our final reckoning thoughts on the record. Yeah. Can't wait. We will have, as we previously teased, our seasonal hype meter, our summer hype meter is going to be coming next week. So that's something to look forward to as well. The Midnight Boys. Pew, pew. Pew, pew. Racist movies draft. That's coming in the middle of this week. It's going to be can't miss. Can't miss. Cannot wait for that. Joanna.

How can everybody follow along? So thrilled and delighted you asked me. Listen, I would suggest you follow the pods wherever you enjoy doing that. Watch the pods. You can look at Tony Gilroy's incredible hair inside of this episode. He beamed in live from Lucasfilm in the Presidio, and the hair was looking incredible. He did a glasses change. I think it's worth checking out the video. If you want to see him...

doubled over with laughter at something that Malia Rubin asked him. I really suggest you watch the video of this interview. So yeah, follow the pod. Why not do that? Follow us on social. That's a good idea. Something that you might want to do. And as always, you can email us hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. We read one of your emails to Tony Gilroy and he was like,

I'm profoundly intrigued by it. I think it's safe to say. So y'all are the best. We love the bad babies. Thank you so much for all of your thoughts on Andor and other matters. Here's the spoiler warning for today. Andor. If it ever happened in Andor, it might come up today. Human history. If it happened in Rogue One, if it happened in Star Wars, if it happened in the history of the world, it could come up today. The French Revolution. Yeah. People mourn. Yeah.

Okay. Should we do it? Should we get to our interview with Tony? Let's do it. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever finish a movie and the next thing you know, you're totally obsessed? Like I'm talking about ordering a book about 70s film lighting or buying the soundtrack on vinyl. Kind of obsessed. Whatever it is, Prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into or getting into. Head to amazon.com slash prime and follow your obsession wherever it goes.

Tony, thank you for joining us today. We are thrilled to talk to you about genuinely one of our favorite shared experiences, which was watching and covering Andor together. Star Wars fans like to point to Force ghosts as a manifestation of the eternal. But there is, of course, another way to achieve immortality in Star Wars, and that is by writing something that Star Wars fans will be quoting to each other for the rest of their lives.

Andor was full of these mesmerizing, memorable speeches. Luthan's speech to Lani, Marva's funeral hollow, Nemec's manifesto, Maan's speech to the Senate, on and on the list goes, and obviously more indelible bursts of dialogue than we could possibly go through right now.

It's ingrained. It's ingrained into how we think about and talk about Andor with each other. It's ingrained into how we think about Star Wars and life more broadly now. So what does it mean to you to know that you and your team have given shape to and found poetry in these ideas that people will now be sharing with each other for decades and decades to come, forever, like passing down these Andor quotes to each other, almost like a sort of inheritance? It's...

It's on a scale of incoming affirmation that really takes time to absorb. I don't think any of us on the show really are going to have any real perspective on how... We're very proud and we're all...

We're all just blown away by what we've been on the road now for six or seven weeks, most of us, and watching what's been happening and just the response we've been getting. And I think it's still too close to really fully let in the sort of institutionalized edifice that you're talking about. I mean, pride, I guess, more than anything. I think you'd have to ask me in a year or two what I think about it. It's so much to take in.

It really has been a lot to take in. Above the language, another thing that we've loved about Andor is the world building. And, you know, we've talked about this a lot on this podcast, the way in which you've taken something that Star Wars was known for, which is this idea of desert planet, jungle planet, and given us these very specific cultures of the Gormen or Aldani or, you

you know, Mina Rao or, or Ferrix or whatever the case may be. And I'm curious from your point of view as, as a world builder inside of this larger universe, what do you think is most important in establishing a distinct identity for a place? So we understand what is at risk if the empire homogenizes the galaxy. Yeah.

They have to be real. You have to believe in them. You have to want to go there yourself. It has to be, um, it's one of the most fun things. Uh, and, and I didn't anticipate that when we started, I, I, you know, uh, in the first blush of coming on this and meeting Luke. And as we started, we started building Ferrix and, you know, I started drawing, I drew my, my very first crude map of Ferrix, which I sent to Luke, which they have. And it's like, um, um,

It's just, it's just a gas to like be an anthropologist in reverse, you know? And, and, and I guess I've done a lot of traveling. I've traveled a lot around the world. The movie business has taken me a lot of places and, and personally I've gone a lot of places. And if, if you're really curious, I guess, and you have your eyes up, I don't, it's,

The one thing I'll say that I think is really important that's so unusual about this project to come on a project like this is that the design is so completely...

integrated with the writing. It really is the, the, the figuring out the gloves on the wall in Ferrix and figuring out the, you know, the, the, the, the vibe in Niamo's or the, the, the, you know, what, what Luthan's shop or any of the things we've done, they're all writing. Um, and, and that's, that's something that doesn't really usually happen on, uh, on my job.

When we think of Neimos, we think of the Pizos and the Revnag, you know. Pizos, thank you. We just had a whole conversation. We want to know why ILM does not have a Pizos dispenser here. It's a reasonable question. It's a reasonable question.

Yep. And you know, the greeny green ones. It's become a recurring refrain for us on the pod. We love to mention the greeny green ones. I found three. We were asking about, I found, I could remember three spots. I'm not sure if there's more than three spots. Maybe you know more than I do, but there's, there's where he, where Wendy asks him.

about the greeny green ones. There's him in the bodega where he's looking for them. Then the guys come into the, into the, into the store in Mineral, the general store and ask if they had Pizos. That's it, right? It's those three. Yeah. Amid the space fields of rye and the little Trader Joe's there with the barrel of fresh product. I want my Pizos. I want my Pizos. It's wonderful. I'm curious to, to ask a semi-related question and stick with this, this,

idea of just the sense of place and this fully realized sense of place and then how that forges a lasting bond. You know, one of the things, Joe and I covered season one together and of course have just covered season two together and one of the things that we were

just genuinely so struck by and so moved by was how Farrick's Stone and Sky became this refrain. And the way that Cassian and Will, when they would embrace and Cassian would put his hand in the back of Will's neck to cradle him and ask him to stay and be safe and show him that he loved him, that was the thing that they would say to each other, the shorthand that encapsulated inside of it an entire history. And thinking about alliance building and

and sustaining a rebellion, one of the things that is obviously required to do that is empathy, right? Empathy for other people and their plight, trying to establish some understanding into somebody else's culture and life that is actually different from yours. And so we're curious, like, how that idea, Ferox, Stone, and Sky, something that is so specific to Cassian, to Will, to Bix, to Brazo, to Sweet Bee, who will be coming up many times today, our beloved B2 emo,

How the idea of what was lost, right? This place that they aren't anymore, this place that they're no longer able to build a life together and share together. The thing that was lost is what allows them to forge the desire and the conviction to make sure somebody else doesn't lose that too. Man, I mean, capital yes to all of that. That is, you are right at the hot center of the whole thing.

uh, in, in, in several pieces. I mean, empathy, yes. Empathy, empathy, empathy. I mean, um, I just did a whole long interview, uh, trying to explain why Hollywood is more progressive, uh, by nature, uh, because, uh, there's nothing like pretending to be other people to make you, uh, realize that, uh, maybe you should look beyond your own momentary needs. Um, the, uh,

Same interview, refracting back. And so it's, I feel as if you're just doing a commentary on the, on the piece I just did. There is no ideology expressed by the rebellion. There's no one ever says, this is what I want our, this is what I want the galaxy to look like when we are done. Right. And, but, but, but, but the, the,

I think what really is the overwhelming ideology that is expressed, and I think it covers for all of that, is community. And that is the destruction of community is what the empire is about. And it could be the community of your people.

It could be colonialism. It can be imperialism. It can be the destruction of Ferrix. It can be taking apart Morlano I at the beginning. We're going to absorb the corporate companies. It is all about

happens when community gets destroyed. And if you look, I've heard Diego and Adria on the press tour rearticulate again, you know, when Cassian is talking to Clea, when he comes off, when he comes off, gets out of the Maya pay brigade, he's

What's happening at home? Home, home, home, home, home. And particularly if you are casting, which makes him such a great messenger for this story, is that he has had all of his homes ripped away from him. Right? All of it. And Stone and Sky, all those little things, they...

We build the worlds, Luke and I build the worlds and the writers come in and help out and the actors inhabit. And then we go farther and Michael Wilkinson gets involved and we're dressing, we're dressing the places and suddenly they're alive and we're making languages and national anthems, but you're, they're so alive and they're so real that, um,

I mean, I never, I never thought after we wrote the, after the song for the, you know, the stone and sky chanting in Ferrix, I never thought, Oh my God, that'll be a thing that somebody says to each other later on when they're, when they're, when they're in exile, but it's just, the pieces are so vivid and they're so true that they actually, they take on a life of their own. And, um, yeah. And I think, I mean, I really think you hit it. I mean, it's, uh, it's, um,

People just want their communities. They want to have that sense of belonging, and the Empire does it. Right. The community inside of the show is a vast one because it is a large cast with a number of storylines in a number of different places. We're going to hit a few different character-centric questions before circling back to some bigger themes again, but I wanted to actually start with...

The idea of finding this calibration when you have this many people in the mix, some of the characters who had a less central role in season one, like Clea or Lani or even Hirt, our guy Hirt, really moved to the fore more actively in season two. And then you have some characters like

Our beloved Perrin, for example, who have always been deployed judiciously, right, in moderation, and yet still add so much texture not only to every scene that he's in, but to our ability to, like, understand what Mon Mothma's

life is like, right? What is it like at home? What is it like out on the social scene and navigating how that entwines with the political imperatives, et cetera. So curious, like, how you managed that balance in a story with this many different compelling performers, compelling characters, compelling ideas. How often were the decisions about

Who to feature when and in what way driven by your enthusiasm or somebody on your team's enthusiasm for writing for a given performer? Like, for example, when every single Partagas line is the single most memorable thing that's ever happened in the history of television, how can you resist, right? How can you?

Possibly resist giving him more. And how often was that dictated by the needs of the plot? Like, we have to explain how this information is getting to Luthan so that people have enough of a sense of understanding of how information is traveling. Or was it always just about balance?

It's really symbiotic. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's all of the above. And then I'll go back and I'll give one little example, but like, you know, having a lot of characters who are really good and in motion means I don't have to hang out anywhere very too long. And if I need something, I have it, you know, there it is. I got to move this store. I got to get back here. I got to do this. I got to do that. My God, I got, I got this. I got that. I got this. Um, uh,

it really, it's really like packing the trunk for a long trip. They're all there. And what do I need? What's in the trunk? You know,

The actors that we got, I mean, they're just so extraordinary. But I mean, also in a really specific way, like what's a really, Wilmon, you know, Moe who plays Wilmon. He was really just, he was Salmon Pak's son in the beginning and we cast him and he was good and he looked like Salmon and fine and he's the kid and all right. And then he'll make up, let's have him make a bomb. Let's have him throw the bomb. And then when we did it,

It's like, well, who's going to, um, who's going to get on the truck at the end to get out of there. And, um,

It really put him there because I thought, oh my God, it's been so sad and so tragic. And so much has happened. They definitely know the kid who threw the bomb and whatever, whatever the retribution is going to be here, it's not going to be good. So let's put Wilmot on the truck and he can, he can get out and, and he made it on the thing. I don't know at that point how far I'm going to go with him. And, and he was very good.

during the season, but I, we hadn't cut everything together. It hadn't all been cut together. Hadn't seen all the final, hadn't seen all the moments that really like, wow, he's really good. And I talked to Mo on the break, the long break and talk to him and, you know, talk to the directors who'd worked with him and tried to find out, can I, you know, how much can I invest in this? Is he, is he solid? Is he, you know, what kind of person is he and how good an actor can he be? And, you know,

So we brought him back, but you're testing, you know, a little bit, a little bit. And I had to give him some sense of the responsibility that he was taking on. But there's a character that, and then think of all the things that he does for me in season two. He's the surrogate shadow son. As Cassian leaves, he becomes Luthen. He really becomes the defender of Luthen, of Luthen.

When all others have gone, he becomes my link to... I mean, he becomes a really great plot device for me to move the story along. But also, he's growing up on the show. So he's a character who's aging in the right direction. He's a player. He's got girlfriends everywhere he goes. A blonde in every port.

Exactly. That's a cool little thing. And like, and, and it turns out that Mo is a really, really good actor. And so it's, and that, that same story that is happening all over the place with all so many other characters. Um, and so, you know, you want to take attendance, you don't want to leave anybody too far behind and, you know, um,

But you don't ever want to put anybody in because you didn't need them. You know, it's, yeah. Wow. We got to watch him huff ride-o. What a gift. I know, what a treasure. I know, man. I mean...

I know. Mallory got to say Huffing Rido, her favorite thing to talk about. Were you happy that when you watched Rogue, were you happy to know what was in that tank now? Oh, it's like, we can't stop talking about it. We, you know, obviously you've joined our beloved colleagues and friends, Chris and Andy on The Watch a couple times. And we, Joanna and I have a very vibrant group chat with Chris where we pretty much exclusively talk about soccer, Huffing Rido. And Rido. Yeah. All we talk about. Why?

On the Rogue One front, something that was, you know, like so many people, when we finished Andorra, we went right into rewatching Rogue One for the hundredth time, but through a different lens. And something that was so enjoyable, among many other things, was sort of tracking the power differential of Krennic, watching Krennic go from, you know, the most powerful guy in the room with his finger on the top of Dedra's head to getting...

by Tarkin, choked out by Vader, you know, within the span of a couple days. And so in this power, yo-yoing is not just Krennic. It goes for a lot of different people. When are you the most powerful person in the room? And when are you on the back foot? And what is it about like fascism or the imperial rule that specifically courts something like that? And I was just, I was thinking about

We're always thinking about our guy Nemec and his manifesto and this idea of brittle authority or masking fear. And I was just wondering, what were you most interested in saying about that, maybe through someone like Krennic? Well...

I'm saying it directly through Cyril and Dedra, for sure. And then through Partagas, ultimately. I mean, yeah, I mean, fascism comes for, you know, it comes for the courts first, and then it comes for your property, and then it comes for your church, or it comes for your neighbor, and it comes for, you know, it has a long list of appetites.

along the way. And in the end, um, it always comes for its, its, its early proponents, its early adopters, its employees, its, its, its middle management, everybody gets eaten in the end. There's only, there's only, I never, I never, I never, I watched, finally watched Rogue, uh, a week ago with my wife. I finally put it on to see what would happen. Cause I was nervous about it. I, I, I saw what you, what you're talking about. I hadn't, I hadn't really thought

I hadn't planned on that development of watching him diminished and become a middle manager again, but it, but it works because the idea is so, so articulated the rest of the way through. I mean, that's really, they, yeah. I mean, everybody loses their parking space after a while, you know?

Let's stick with Rogue One for a second here. I have a question that I concede in advance is inherently paradoxical because Rogue One obviously came first and thus gave us Andor, and so I will now ask you to engage in a thought experiment in which that was not the order in which that happened. If you were embarking upon Rogue One now, if you were approaching it now after Andor had concluded, how would you think about the mission of that film differently? Would you think about it differently? Would there be anything about

Cassian's final act of service that you viewed in a new light or through a new lens. Would there be any themes that you had explored in Andor that you would want to center in a different way in Rogue One? And, you know, are there any characters who you spent time with across two seasons of the series who you find yourself wishing could be there in the movie?

That question would give me a headache. I have to admit, I don't really want to talk about Rogue so very much. I was really pleased when I saw it. I was nervous to see it, but everyone kept telling me it was working and enhanced and everything. When I watched it, I was really pleased.

at how proper we were with the information. The information works perfectly. And I'm really pleased with how it tracks for Cassian and all the way through. Tonally,

You know, tonally, musically, visually, in certain ways, there's things that I see that you may not see. And there's also just a huge amount of construction that I can't escape seeing. So that question gives me a headache. I don't know what I would do. I'm pretty well pleased. The fact that Rogue works and works as well as it does right now is satisfaction enough for me.

it does. It's like, it's astonishing how well it works and it's astonishing how much and or enhances what's already there. Just deepens it. Um,

It's pretty. Were you, did you, how heavily invested when you saw it, when you were, when there was only Rogue, how invested were you in, in, in, in Jin and Cassian as the love that, that, that is the greatest love story ever told? We, I don't think we're the world's number one, Jin and Cassian shippers, but I think it's been a really interesting journey to go on. We were like,

All season, I was asking Mallory, as we were watching the Bix and Cassian relationship develop, as we were watching them do beautiful Phyrexian hand gestures with each other, I was like, what does this make us feel about Jyn Erso? How are we feeling about Jyn? And I think where we landed on our Rogue One rewatch was this idea of, you know, Phyrexian

find solace where you can find solace in these really extreme times. And it doesn't, we don't see it as a betrayal of Bix necessarily, but it's just sort of, there's a, there's something there, but it's not, it's very chaste, but it really is. I mean, who are you going to be with at the end of the world? You know? Yeah. Yeah. We're like rewatching it and looking at the moment where they're staring into each other's eyes and circling each other or sharing a very intimate ride. You know what? If the love of your life, your life partner said, um,

we're not going to do this right now. You need to go focus on saving the galaxy. If you end up having sex with somebody in an elevator while saving the galaxy, that's really your prerogative. I think that was where we landed. It's also Cassian, right? It's Cassian Andor. It's quite Cassian.

You mentioned, I want to circle back to this idea of everybody loses their parking space. Because obviously at the end of all, one of the satisfying things at the end of Andor season two is watching the chickens come home to roost for some of these characters, watching this retribution show up for some of these characters. We, like you, really empathize with and feel for Cyril Karn. And we feel like Who Are You is one of the most stunning things we've ever seen.

But there's like a number of other endings, whether it's Partagas taking matters into his own hands, Dedra in a cell, Kirt being used as a meat shield down the hallway. Do you think of it as sort of meeting out punishment or how do you decide which character lands where, who's going to wind up in jail, who's going to pick up their blaster at the end of Andor season two? Yeah.

How? Well, at the beginning of, at the end of season one, I told, I very specifically remember telling Luke, because we throw everything away. They're so...

storing things is not a great, I mean, I'm here at ILM where they have all this stuff they've saved, but boy, oh boy, when you try to find stuff that's been left behind, there's very few. So I said, save me a Narkina piece. I know I want to have that. Save me, I don't know what I'm going to do with it, but save me that. I think it's most appropriate. It's what, I mean, it's not pin the tail on the donkey. I'm making decisions about what I think is the best

Most poetic, most righteous. What's the one that feels the right? I think I got them right. I think she needs to end up there in a place where she's back in a box. She's, you know, I grew up in an Imperial kinder block. She's back in a ward of the state. I think that's a really round for anybody who's really paying attention. That's a round story. The part of guys listening to Nemec was a really happy morning to think of that. When that, when that came through, it's like, Oh my God,

Really, really to be able to put Nemec's speech in the conference room and not have it be a voice analyzer. But that moment, that was just too good to... I mean, that just... You get a feeling when something drops. That's my feeling. When something's natural, you get the right idea, it just drops. Here...

He's just such an asshole. I mean, he's so, um, he's so hateful that, uh,

That seemed cool for him. Who else did you mention? Who else is there? I think you hit the main ones. Yeah, I know. I mean, they just felt right. Yeah. Just felt right. This episode is brought to you by Lionsgate. From the world of John Wick comes the movie Ballerina, only in theaters June 6th. The greatest action franchise of the past decade is back, starring Ana de Armas and Keanu Reeves returning.

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Whatever you want. Find the perfect gift for your dad in store and online at TheHomeDepot.com. How doers get more done. Subject to availability. Let's hit the characters on the other side of the fight who are, you know, also supremely flawed as both seasons of the show explore in such indelible fashion. Luthan and Saw.

Lucid and Saw offer us two lenses into this idea, including very memorably, of course, in scenes with each other in season one.

Luthen asks Saw, aren't you tired of fighting with people who agree with you? And Saw says later, I'm the only one with clarity of purpose. Just iconic stuff from both of them. And it's just so interesting to track their arcs because, you know, at the end of the day, neither could quite cease the former. And both ultimately felt the pull of the latter, right? And Luthen felt that he could not go.

to Yavin, despite Cassian begging him. And the place where Cassian, you know, we will hear him like beautifully say to Clea, come see the place that you helped build. And it is just impossible to leave the show, to leave the experience of watching the show without obviously toasting Luthen as this

this titan of the rebellion, a hero who, you know, as he so memorably told Lonnie, like burned his life to make a sunrise that he knew he'd never see. But it's also, I think, impossible to leave the show without thinking about the other side of this alliance building and found family forging that we often, you know, have the tendency to like cheer. It's a meaningful thing to us as fans to cheer while we're watching Star Wars. There was a time for Luthan and Saw.

And then there wasn't. Yeah. Why did it feel so essential to not only include characters like this, and maybe we just focus on Luthan specifically here or anybody else you'd like to hit, but in Luthan's case, to really build so much of...

not just your universe, but the moral calculus and assessment of your universe for us at home, for the other characters inside of the world around him? Because it's now just so difficult for us to think about Andor or Star Wars or the very idea of sacrifice without thinking of him. He's so ingrained. I mean, it's a classic...

It's a classic dynamic. The originators, the original gangsters, the people who light the flame, the people who do the startup in their garage, who come up with the big idea, the skill set and the energy and the drive that might get you there.

there is not the one that, that has the strong follow through. And that's just, I mean, uh, I don't know, Robes fear what happens to him, you know, I mean, you know, uh, um, there are, there are figures like this throughout every rebellion, every political movement, every, every,

Every organization, every business has the person who just, oh my God, well, you know, Joel, he came up with the idea, but God, you know, he's just can't deal with them anymore. And so there's a classic aspect of it that you want to, um, you want to piggyback on. It's good drama. I know that I know saw, I know how saw is going down. I already know that from rogue. So I, um,

uh, I know that, I know that he's not going to be included. I know that Luthan doesn't get to Yavin because he's not in Rogue. So he's, he's, and if he's going to go down, um, it's really so valuable for me to have, um, Cassian have to examine his odyssey, his path that he's been on. And, um,

I love when he defends him in episode 12. I love when he kind of makes amends with him and kind of, you know, admits his affection and his need and as difficult as it was, I feel like they're really bound back up again. The scene, I really, they're sneaky scenes. The scene, their last scene together on the flip side, the scene where Luthan is behind the Senate

And Luthan the pragmatist, Luthan the cold-blooded analyst is a bit bedazzled by his circumstances. Why are you still alive? How were you always there when I needed you? And that little bit of pixie dust for Luthan, I just love that moment. And they get interrupted. They can't finish the conversation. It's a conversation that never finishes. But

That's a real dynamic. It fits dramatically for what I want to do. It fits canonically with where they're going to end up. So it's kind of perfect for me. You've invoked Robespierre, Reign of Terror, right?

And you've so consistently talked about the fact that this is a show not just for our time, but for all time, right? That these are the cycles, the rebellions and the imperial encroachment is again and again a cycle of our human history, maybe just the human experience, maybe just the experience of living creatures in this world. And so I'm curious, you know, I know that you weren't

Thinking too, too far ahead in terms of what comes next along the Star Wars timeline. But I think what's fascinating watching Mon Mothma, for example, inside of Andor is this notion that she will ultimately...

by some definitions, fail as a leader because under her leadership, the seeds are planted for the rise of the first order. And so I'm wondering if you're thinking at all about this idea as we celebrate these victories, that they are temporary victories, uh,

or temporary steps forward for a rebellion or an effort and not a permanent quashing of imperial power. How do you think about these things as cycles? I'm not playing forward. It was very disorienting for me to step outside my five-year period. If I went backwards and looked at stuff, if I went forward and looked at stuff, I even, I started watching Mandalorian in the beginning, but then I couldn't watch it anymore because I,

as cool as it was, I loved it, but I was like, it made me, it made me, I lost my frequency. So I really, I didn't find it helpful to know what was going to happen after so much. So I thought if I get everybody where they need to get, that'll have to take care of itself. Um, I was a little bit, uh, I definitely siloed my period off, uh, to, to make it work as a defense mechanism, I suppose, as much as anything, because there was so much else to do anyway. It was like, yeah,

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me ask you another sort of a show for our time question. One of my favorite emails that I think we've ever gotten from a listener in the many years of this show was about this. We think of it as a sort of relay race baton passing nature of the idea of rebellions are built on hope. And our listener, who's the name I have is John. Hopefully that's their real name. Rebellion.

wrote this, which I think about all the time now. When the problems are this big, it feels like solutions have to be equally large. And so none of us are content to settle for reactions that feel too small. We crave big ideas because the threats are so overwhelming. However, I think this is where it is important to remember how the relay race of rebellion and resistance works. Even if our resistance is something as seemingly small as sharing hope with others, we have no idea what dividends it might pay down the road. And I guess I just wanted you to weigh in on this idea. I'm

Nemec once again comes through with us, for us, always. This idea of even the smallest act of insurrection pushes our lines forward. This idea of paralysis that comes when people are inside a fascist reign or, you know, or imperial encroachment of like, what can I possibly do? And this idea of do something, do anything. What is the small thing that you can do? What is the community building that you can do? You know, how much...

Is that idea resonating with you around the story of Andor? A lot. I mean, I mean, and what does he say at the campfire in Aldani? The pace of repression has become so fast. You know, there's 40 atrocities happening at once. How can we, how can we pay attention? I think that is, that's a paralysis that people can, can get with. Yeah.

What I, what, what just is really overwhelming is the comment that you read and those kinds of discussions, which seem to be happening everywhere. Every time I look online, so many people that we speak to the, the eloquence, the eloquence with which people have viewed the show and commented on it and, and thought about it and argued with each other about it is, um,

I mean, you don't even dare fantasize that you'll have that kind of conversation start on a project that you're working on imaginatively. You just can't even imagine, oh, I'm going to work on this thing and then people will, you know...

A million people are going to be talking about it amongst themselves and not, not just that they liked it or didn't like it. Or did you understand this? They're going to be talking about it in a, in a, in a, um, they're gonna be taking the ideas farther than the show itself ever took them. They're going to be using the ideas of the show as points of departure for their own, for their own conversations, for their own communities, for their own, uh, for their own use. It's, uh, it's humbling. It is really humbling.

It's been such a cool thing for us to witness with our audience as well. And like that email that Joe just read was beautiful and really touched us when we talked about it the week that we received it. But it has been like a deluge all series long of, I mean, honestly, what we consider like. I see it. I see it. We all see it. We've been on the tour like six, seven weeks now. And, you know, in various, you know, in various places,

you know, all the actors and Stellan was with us for a while. I mean, we've everybody been out on the road and, and, and so we, we're all, um, and my brothers and everybody on the, I mean, we, we're all just, we're all just every now and then looking down and looking at, uh, looking at a comments page or looking at something that somebody's forwarded to us or something that somebody's, you know, uh, said. And, uh, we're, we are, we're blown away. We're really, we're all blown away. Yeah.

I think one of the things that we've loved about the community around the show and the discussion around it is you get these like dissertation worthy insights and reflections. And then also, yeah.

people really having fun, really having fun with the material. There are so many people that are so much smarter than I am commenting on the show. There are things that people are saying and writing and referencing that I'm like, oh my God, I could never get there. How do you do this? It's, I mean, you, you, uh, it makes you realize what your skill set is and that it's not universal. No, it makes you realize that this is what, this is the thing that you can do. And, but it's really, we really are, uh, um,

I don't want to be like, yeah, I mean like a comment freak or, you know, but it's way better than, uh, like I didn't never minded test screenings. Uh, you know, when you had a test screening, when you could take your show, you take your show out and watch it with an audience and you could vampire through the audience and feel what you felt. I always thought that was valuable. I like to see the, I like to see sometimes you can bring in just a couple of people. And if there's just a stranger in the room, you'll watch it differently.

I hated focus groups. I hated them because you'd sit down there at the front of the theater and there'd be the interlocutor and the interviewer and there'd always be one or two people who just needed an audience and would say anything to fuck you up. And all of a sudden that would turn into a, into a lynch mob or something. And people, and it was just, it was all distorted.

There is something of all the things that are wrong with social media. There is something from, from my point of view, from a creative point of creator point of view, when you get this large, a sample, I mean, this is a huge sample to be able to surf through that in some way and see the tendencies of it and see what's really going on. That has, um, I've changed my relationship with the audience. I think, uh, I mean, not in, I mean, in how I work, not in how, not in, you know, um, so it's been, um,

Anyway, it's been remarkable. It's fun to think of the show as like a version of Nemec's Manifesto, right? The ideas get out into the world and then what happens? Yeah. And just like watching or thinking of something like, you know, the great moment where Luthan says to Dedra, like, the rebellion's not here anymore. It's flown away. Like, it is bigger than anybody could possibly wrap their arms around and that's just awesome. Yeah.

I think because of that and for many other reasons. But people are very sad to see and or end. It is simultaneously, I think, acknowledged as this precious, perfect thing. And also like, oh, God, will we really never get more? And so we would be remiss if we did not ask you about another thing that the fans are all writing us about and talking about a lot online, which is the idea of a spinoff. Our listeners are particularly excited.

by the idea of a Vel and Kleia spinoff. This has been a big topic of conversation here at our show. You've been very clear in... A Vel and Kleia? Vel and Kleia. Vel and Kleia hunt down imperial remnants across the galaxy. Yeah, it's... Like Nazi hunters. Yeah, Nazi hunters. Yeah, there's a genuine passion for this idea. You've been very

clear in other interviews that you've given a lot of your life over the past decade to these characters and that this is it for now. So here is my best attempt to incept you into one day returning. Okay.

Which characters will you have the hardest time not writing for again? Like if this really is the end, who has the greatest grip on your mind and your soul and your heart where you can say right now, this is it. But if you think about what it would be like to never return to them and their stories, it would hurt. Well, Partagas is dead. What about the earlier party days?

I mean, everyone loves writing for Anton Lester. He was a very popular guy to write for because he just, he just, um, I mean, it's a silly answer, but it's true. I mean, Edie is just, it's just every time there was an Edie scene, it was like, I'm taking that. I'm taking that. I'm taking that.

I always wanted to do, and I really was, someone asked me on a rope line, what scene didn't you get to write that you wish, I said, I really want to write a scene where Edie went to Luthan's gallery. That was a scene I really wanted to write. But I'm trying to, you got me, I'm trying to think. So Val and. Oh, I can, I can give you the pitch. Okay. Can I add, can I add one more element to it? Yeah.

Yeah, go for it. Which is that dead Ramiro, because she's been sort of framed for the leaking of the Death Star plans, once the Rebellion wins is...

let out of prison and used as a sort of Hannibal Lecter-esque consultant on like how to track these people down. But she's using it. Again, this is one of our listeners that you don't need me. No, our listener came up with this, like using it to wreak vengeance on her enemies. You don't need me. You're on your way.

I don't know, man. I mean, seriously, it has been 10 years. And I mean, it wasn't 10 years continuous, but it was rogue. And then I had a lot of trouble getting a couple other projects off. And then this happened. So it's really been 10 years. I haven't done much else in there. And I'd really like to direct again. I got a movie I'm trying to put together. And I mean, 26 hours of Star Wars is...

You know, I mean, that's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot of Star Wars. Yeah. So that's a hip idea. I'm sure Kathy will hear about that. That's a good one. Yeah. All right. Allow me to bring down the tone of the room entirely and let you know that like we have a very cherished theory about how Cinta dispatched Tehkoma.

that we'd be more than happy to share with you. But I'm curious if you, the writers, had a specific end in mind for him. Like, what did Cinta do after Tay got into the speeder with her? Oh, I...

We never, I mean, it never had to be articulated. So we never, it's not the kind of show where you spend a lot of time doing something you don't have to do because you have homework all the time. You have entire fields of ride to grow or whatever it is. There's a lot of homework for everybody. So, I mean, it's Fredo. He's Fredo. So she took him out in the lake and just, he's Fredo. So it's just, it's Lake Tahoe. She took him out on the lake and bang. I don't know. I mean, it's-

There's so many people who are like, I saw people were confused. Did she, I mean, we thought that was so obvious. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, no, no. It's very obvious. I'm not going to worry about the people that didn't get that. It's very obvious. Like once, if Cinta's there for you, it's a wrap. It's a wrap.

I will just say to you that we were enamored of the idea that Cinta fastened her seatbelt and Tay did it and she just flipped. Oh, just rolled it? Yeah, flipped the speeder. Yeah. You know, it's a convertible for a reason. It seems to us. I don't think any, yeah, but that, I'm going to go against it because I don't think anybody ever saw him again. Oh.

Well, how high did she drop him from? Because there's not much to see. How deep a ravine, you know? I don't know. The Shandrill and the Shandrill and flats are notorious. Exactly. Cliff sides and crevices everywhere. Exactly. Um,

Okay, that is Joanna's single biggest passion point other than the Maya Pay Brigade, her genuine personal obsession. I do love the Maya Pay Brigade. She does. I'm going to go to one of my personal passions now, and it is, as previously mentioned, B2. I just genuinely can't express without sounding like a complete and total lunatic how much it meant to see him at the end. Like, I...

I just was so glad that we got that. He's so happy. Zipping around, playing with his friends. I broke down in tears. I was just freely weeping to get to see him again and know that he was having fun. And then, of course, we panned to mix in the baby. And I'm just like, I'll never be okay again. This is shattering. Two questions about Bea. One...

Did you guys ever consider reuniting Bea and Cassian, even if just for a quick moment and a quick farewell? Because they never got to formally say goodbye to each other, which is very difficult, I think, for me and for anybody who has a pet at home and is thinking about Bea as their dog or their cat, which I think is how a lot of people think about Bea.

No, he's a dog. He's a dog. I mean, I built it. I mean, I really had a lot. That was really early. I mean, I spent a lot of time on B. He's named after my son's dog. My son's dog is BMO, is a Corgi. So it was named after that. So it's very, I really worked hard on that with the, we had so much time in the beginning to like waste time doing that. So I really got deeply involved in that. He's the best.

I'm sure that when I started sketching season two, I'm sure if there had been a way, probably on the table, I know I was fretting about leaving him behind. Yeah.

what's her name? Talia. Yes. She stays, but there's really important to me. When we did that, I went and really reinforces a moment where, where Brasso really leans down and says, Oh, she's smarter than me and better than me. And she has your charger and she knows all your friends. I really went in and laid it on thick in there because by that point, I must've been worried that we weren't going to get back there, but it was on my mind, but I, there was no, um,

It just wasn't in the cards. You wouldn't have a scene just to do that in a show like this. You just, you know, to stop in and... And also, BTU Emo maybe wouldn't...

it wouldn't be so great for him on Yavin. He's happy where he is. And if you went and visited, then you'd just be breaking his heart and reminding what he's missing again. I mean, dogs kind of, they kind of forget sometimes what they're missing. No, no. It doesn't look like he's worried. He's having the best time, Mallory. He's having a great time. He's literally in a farm upstate. He's literally fine. This is what Joanna kept telling me because I was just like, in a farm upstate. That's what parents tell their kids when they put the dog down, right? I was so upset and Joanna kept saying to me like,

Talia, it will be okay. She is prepared to give Bea a good home. I feel like every second of her screen time in those episodes, it's about making sure you know Bea will be okay. Making sure that you know that Talia is good people. That's it. Not only did Bea not forget Cassian, here's my next question.

Is it my head canon now is that B is basically co-parenting with Bix, raising this child. And his role is, you know, when we talk about what we pass down and the traditions that we share, he is the storyteller. That he is like weaning this child on tales of not just Cassian, but Marva.

Brazo, Ferex, like all of the people and the places that this little baby didn't get to know. When Val and Clea show up for some information, there's a tea party. You know what? Tony, thank you for writing fan fiction with us. We really appreciate it. We appreciate that about you.

You mentioned, uh, budgetary restrictions. We were, you know, we'll forever more in the K2SO episode that we never got. Um, yeah, we, we're really missing that, but I don't, I, I, it was really good, but I have to be honest. I would, I would, it, the eight and nine would not have worked as well as they did. It was, it would have been disruptive. It wasn't, it wasn't, uh, it was brilliant on its own and was a really good idea at the time, but, um,

And I probably fought for it longer than I should have. But in the end, I really think we ended up in a better situation. I really did. Honestly. I mean, I, I, outside of the expansion of eight and nine, I'm curious. I'm always curious to hear showrunners talk about like necessity being the mother of invention, like what a budgetary restraint puts on them. So outside of your ability to expand the story into eight and nine, were there other moments where you had to get creative that you're particularly proud of the end results? Yeah.

Well, I mean, where does it work for you? You know, Aldani, again, it was Dan Gilroy. Danny got burned. And Aldani, Aldani was originally pre-COVID designed to be, it was about 10,000 people show up for that. You know, the Aldanis all come up there. It was 10,000 people. So that meant that it's this huge festival and this huge chaotic sort of, you know, Glastonbury kind of crazy thing, which meant that the gang themselves could be different people.

and how they came through and the incursion to the safe and everything was completely different. When COVID happened, they're like,

We'll give you a hundred people. We'll give you, you know, we'll give you, you can't, we can't get them up there. I mean, our COVID budget, our COVID budget on season one was more than it costs to make Michael Clayton. And, and so what happens? Oh my God, tears and recriminations. And what are we going to do? And holy shit. And then you go, oh my God, you know what?

it's the Lakota Sioux at the end of the line. It's the dead end. It's really actually much more bitter and horrible. And it's like, then you write the speech for Bejas where he's like, oh, we like, they start off with like 500, 600, a thousand. And then they just get drunk on the way up. We give them booze and we do all this stuff and they dwindle out and they're just the dead enders. And it just becomes more sad. And you end up with something far more effective than you had ever anticipated. Yeah.

those kinds of things, there's, there's a, there's many of them. Um, and, uh, and some of them are practical. I mean, I think the hospital set in episode 10 is epic. I it's, I think it's one of the best sets I've ever seen in my life. It, it, it, uh,

The sight lines of it, the geography of the hospital, that horseshoe thing with the glass. And you always, you know exactly where you are. It's just absolutely perfect. It's a genius saw up.

we were on fumes. That was like, you can have a hallway and a turn and a thing. That's all one unit that Luke is turning around. And the design of it was a problem solved to let us use it for every floor and multiple places. So it's really a very small piece of set. It's not a very, it was a huge anxiety. And it ends up being

Just perfect. Stunning, yeah. We loved the, in the horseshoe design, the parallel to Narkeena and the ability to look across the...

to a glass window. And just the way that like information registers or travels when you're in certain spaces, it's just like in a completely different context. Fascinating to think about. It just means when the directors and the DP show up on the scout, you know, to try to line up what their shots are going to be and what they're going to do, they almost inevitably are led to great shots. There's like, it's not a set that you have to go fight against. The set is just like dying for like, oh my God, look at the shots that are in there that she's walking and you see them coming. And it's just, it's, man, it's...

That is some really, really smart production design on a threadbare budget at that point. Should that be the spinoff? The granny? The granny Clea stole and rolled around? Eh! Granny scatting? Yeah.

She was exceptional. Yeah, we loved it. What's she up to now? That was on the page. I never, did I see that? I think that's during the strike that probably happened. I was like, really? Okay. I love the moment where they're on the elevator. Now it's an improv thing that they do. Oh yeah, Star Wars music. I know. I fought for that. That I fought for. There were people who did not want, I thought that was great. It was good. It was genuinely incredible. We loved it. Did you catch the name of the, did you translate the Orabesh on the name of the hospital?

I think we did at the time. Yeah. What was it? What was it? I don't know her name, but she's a famous Tom Bissell said, can I name it the Mia Myra Sohn? What's it? What is it? I can't remember her name is, but translate the Orbex and it's, there's an Easter egg. Love it. Love it. Love it. I have a question about,

The lessons that other people can take from Andor, the lessons for people who are making their own Star Wars show or really any show inside of like a larger IP universe. Sometimes worry that people might, that there might be a risk of people taking the wrong lesson from Andor, which is to say that they might say, I have to make Andor.

Right. I have to try to make Andor because look how it resonated. Look how it animated the fandom. When, of course, one of the many reasons, but one of the reasons that Andor worked is because it was so specifically and utterly itself. Right. There was a mission and a perspective and a purpose and a point of view. And the fact that Andor was its own thing is what allowed it to exist.

reach people. So what is your advice for other people who might be making Star Wars in the future or, again, any show where you're playing inside of an existing universe with a lot of prior canon and future canon, certainly as well, for how to find that balance of enriching, making something that does engage with and enrich this larger storytelling tapestry that people have such a deep connection to while also finding a way to make the thing that is utterly your own?

Yeah, but that's, I mean, bring your game. Um,

I wholeheartedly agree. It's driven us crazy on the show. Every time people, the clickbait that people try to draw, you know, controversy between us and the other shows. And it's just... The cartoons. It just drives us nuts when we see it. We're like, what is this? By the same token, it's... It would be really wrong to try to come in and I think to try to reproduce... Slavishly reproduce. I think...

There might be some grammar that you could take to the show that you guys were talking about. I don't think that show wants to be very funny, maybe. And it's not, maybe it has a, it might have a different visual grammar. But there has to be a hook. There has to be a reason that you want to bring your game there. And then within that, we never winked.

like, maybe that's the thing that kept me most out of that. Maybe that's the thing that disoriented me the most from some traditional star star Wars is the, is the, you know, the Buck Rogers, the wink, the thing that was really that I don't know how to do that. That's not, that doesn't, that doesn't come out of my, uh, my mouth really well. And, uh,

What am I saying? Yeah. I mean, let your freak flag fly and do what you do best. And don't kid it though. You gotta, I think that's the one thing you can't, you gotta, it has to be a, well, maybe it doesn't, I don't know. I don't want to give anybody advice on it. I want them to do something that really surprises me. And also I think people should pick situations. And I mean, there's,

How many billions of beings in that galaxy? How many corners of it have been unexplored? They are doing a lot of, there's some things that they're building that are really unusual, I think. And I think that lesson is being taken to heart. Yeah. We love that. We talk a lot about that. The galaxy is so big. Let's explore. Let's leave the Skywalkers. Go to the dry cleaner. Yeah. That sounds great with Clea and Vel because they have a lot of outfits. Go back to the travel agency. The travel agency. It's a great set. Oh yeah. Yeah.

That couple there, you know, I got friends everywhere. Yes, they had something interesting going in the back room for sure, which, you know, does bring us to our next topic.

You said let your freak flag fly, and we would like to go to Andor after dark for just one moment here if you'll indulge us. All right. You know, we'd like to ask you something very deep and profound about Cyril Karn, our shared favorite, a character we just genuinely love. Genuinely love. You know, we did three to four hour pods on Andor every week. We could not stop talking about Cyril. We're obsessed with him. We're fascinated by him. We were riveted by his arc. I'm not going to ask you about any of that. Here's what we're going to ask you instead. Okay.

In season one, Cyril told his mother that he knew she had been into his private box. Our question is, what was in the box? Here's the second question. Did Enza and Cyril ever... Oh, Enza and Cyril. ...weave twill together, if you know what we mean? And then finally... Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. I think... No, I mean, I don't think she'd ever... I think she knows exactly who he is all the time. Oh, really? I do think, however, that he...

I mean, he's intrigued by all things Gorman. I think Gorman has so many things that appeal to him. The order, the tidiness, the structure of it, the clothes, the precision of it. I think he's... I think he's... You could watch him trend native as it goes along. So I don't think he's... I think he's... I think he has a crush on her a little bit. I do. I don't think anything has ever happened. No, no. Well...

Perhaps that's because he was so actively engaged in turning off the lights with Deirdre. Her boyfriend's pretty solid, too. Yeah, it's true. Stiff competition. I would say so. Did Cyril and Deirdre have a safe word? And if so, what was it? Oh, my God. Um...

Oh, I, I, do you know what? There's a, there's a time of day where I have a beautifully quick answer for that. What is their same word? Oh man. Part of Gus. I think it should be Leo. Leo. Leo. I can't save you, Leo.

Calibrate your enthusiasm. Boy, Chris really packed that one out. That was a really smart get on this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That line is really big one. That's the only spinoff Chris wants is the Krennic part of his ears. The Leo Orson early days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last but not least, I think this is the end of our time and I just want to ask you a really, really important question, which is did anyone survive the Maya Pei Brigade and are they okay? And are they part of the rebellion or are they all toast in the jungle there? Yeah.

I like to think that they pulled it together a little bit. I love those dummies. I'm a big fan of them. That's my son and my niece's husband. I think there's some survivors. It's actually funny because we really...

who can you get back to come back to? You know, should I bring, you know, should I bring Naya back to Yavin or bring somebody else back to Yavin? But it started, once we put Melchi back in there, once I knew that was happening, it started to feel like you were just going to be a little bit, it was going to get a little- The gang's all here sort of thing. It was going to get a little cute. Yeah. But I think, I think, yes, I like to think that there's a,

there's four or five people that survived the Maya pay brigade. Yeah. Let's say that. I love it. I love it. Pick your favorite four. Thank you. Thank you so much, Tony. This has really been cool. This has been a whole day of unexpected wild interviews. All right. This is really good. Thank you, Tony. We appreciate it. Man. Viva La Causa. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Joe, as far as I'm concerned, it's canon that Cinta ruled.

The car and Tay never seen again at the bottom of a Shondralin ravine. Also, as far as I'm concerned, you have an official green light to begin working on the Vel'Klayland. So what a productive chat. Could the bad baby who emailed us, you know, call me, call my people. It sounds like Kathy will hear of this. So we look forward to that.

Great stuff. That was such a blast. I'm not ready to stop talking about Andor, but worst case, I'll see you next May for our new annual tradition. Andor rewatch. Sounds great. I can't wait. I can't fucking wait. All right. It's time for thank yous. Thank you to Tony Kilroy for joining us today and also for making Andor. And everyone at Lucasfilm for making sure all of that came off without a hitch. Really appreciate you guys. And thank you to our crew here. We have with us today.

Carlos Chiriboga, John Richter, Arjuna Ramgopal, Jomia Deneron. John Richter, I just want to say, the podcast is over. You're probably gone at this point, but I just need you to know that there was this sort of like a last-minute tech scramble right before the Tony Gilroy interview. And I saw John Richter running down the halls of Spotify like, you know, someone transporting the plans to the Death Star running from Darth Vader at the end of Rogue One. It was a phenomenal feat and he made it all work. So thank you to John. Thank you to everyone.

Podcaster built on hope.