‘Black Mirror’ Season 7 and ‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Episode 8
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Greetings and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today to ask whether kissing dogs and jackets in Brooklyn was on today's schedule, it's our Daniel Blakes. It's Daniel Chin. It's Ben Lindberg. They are coming to me in person together in the Spotify New York offices today.

We have a lot to cover today and not a lot of time, so I don't want to go on too long of a spiel right away. But let me just say,

I have worked with Benjamin Lindbergh for, I believe, 13 years. I can count on one hand the number of times that he has left his apartment. I was going to say taken off the sweatpants jeans, but I don't know. You might be wearing them. I can't see your legs, so I shouldn't presume. And gone, electively, to be with other people in the flesh at a corporate space. So what a monumental occasion. Daniel was like, guys, can I go to the office? Yeah.

I got peer pressured into this, to be clear, but happy to go along. Beautiful office space we have here. Who knew? Not you. Everyone else knew, but not you. Did you hear about all the snacks?

I sampled some of them. I got my guest pass going. This is one of the only times probably in recorded history that we both have been outside of our homes at the same time in different places, but still. I know. Did you manage to bring your dog with you? Is Grum there? No, I thought about, yeah, bringing Grumkin to do kind of a Bozeman cameo, but she doesn't like to travel any more than I do. So I spared her. Well, we all really appreciate your sacrifice. I'm thrilled to be here with both of you today. Joe is still on vacation. And so why...

We, the three of us, have assembled to talk about a couple different things. One, the new Black Mirror season. Black Mirror season seven just dropped. We are going to chat about it. And also, the penultimate episode of Daredevil Born Again aired this week, so we're going to chat about episode eight. That is a total of seven episodes of television, and so we will not be deep diving on any of it. We will be toe-dipping today. Before we get into all of the particulars, some quick programming reminders, because the feeds are popping, as always. There's

There's a lot going on. How's it going? Monday, Joanna and I will have our Last of Us Season 2, Episode 1, Deep Dive.

It's Last of Us season. The entire Ringerverse family is overjoyed, elated, thrilled. So check out that deep dive on Monday. On Tuesday, we will be covering the Yellowjacket season three finale. And then on Thursday, we will be diving into the Daredevil finale. So it's a robust House of R week coming next week. Over on the Ringerverse.

The Midnight Boys. Pew pew. Pew pew. All right, Ben was ready. Daniel wasn't, but that's okay. That's okay. That's okay. By the end of the pod, if they come up again, you'll be prepared. Until next time.

Also, Last of Us time. The season two premiere pod, the guys will have their coverage up for the premiere on Sunday night. So that is a treat to look forward to as soon as Last of Us ends. The guys will be there. Wednesday, the Midnight Boys. Pew, pew, pew, pew. Daniel's still not ready. A little late. I was a little late. You got it. I was looking down. We're warming up. We're warming up.

Daredevil finale time. And then, guys, speaking of Last of Us, tell everybody what you've got cooking not only next Thursday, but all season long. Give us a little tease. Yeah, we were concerned that we weren't covering The Last of Us Season 2 enough as a company with only, what, four other podcasts covering it? So we will also be jumping in. This is the dream team right here on Button Mash every week.

probably the last time we'll actually be in person to talk. I'm sure. Unless, you never know. Maybe this is the new me. What if you love it? What if you love this experience and you insist on being there every week from now on? Wide selection of spin trips here, you know. Yeah, but first thing Thursday morning, we will have button mashes up about each Last of Us Season 2 episode, and we'll be kind of covering it from a gaming adaptation perspective, which I know you'll be touching on on House of R also, but

we'll be diving deep on that aspect of things so we'll be spoiling stuff it's for people who know what's going to happen or have played the game or don't care about being spoiled and we'll do a little compare and contrast and speculation love it the gamer's guide to the last of us universe is honestly something that i cannot wait for i'm thrilled by the way let's just say daniel you're going to be writing about the last of us every single week yeah what a great website

I'm excited, you know, and there's going to be a little bit of an overlap between Daredevil right now because I'm still recapping Daredevil, but it's great. There's a lot of good content out there right now, especially for the Ringerverse crew. I'll be editing Daniel's recaps. We're teaming up all over the place. Will I be editing your Andor recaps? Who can say? That's also only a week and a half away. Probably not, but we'll talk about it. Maybe. Dare to dream. The first one, probably. What a time. Yearning tendrils, lots of content. Okay, let's get to our spoiler warning for today. We are going to talk about, as we said...

all of Black Mirror season seven. There are six episodes in this new season. All of them could come up today. We're not going to go super in depth on any of them, but we will talk about the plot particulars from all of the episodes at some point today. So if you have not yet watched the new season of Black Mirror, hit pause.

Go watch all six hours of that. It's actually, I think, a little bit more than six hours because some of these were quite long. These are long Stranger Things level episodes at this point. Yeah, a couple of them were short, but some of them were quite long. And then come back and join us for this conversation. Also, anything that has ever happened in Black Mirror previously could come up today. For Daredevil, episode eight.

All of Daredevil Born Again, anything that happened in the Netflix Daredevil universe, anything that has ever happened in the MCU, and anything that has ever happened in comics could, in theory, come up today. So that's a pretty wide and sweeping spoiler warning. But also, if you clicked into a Black Mirror and Daredevil pod, you're fine. You're ready. Let's go. All right, guys. We're going to start with Black Mirror.

And before we talk about the new season, let's just like table set both with each other and with the bad babies who are listening. What is everybody's respective history with Black Mirror? Like before season seven, put a pin in that for now. What's your relationship to the show over the years? Ben, let's start with you. I describe myself as a little bit of a lapsed Black Mirror fan until this week. You messaged me last week to ask if I was watching Black Mirror. And I said, I used to. And...

I'm so proud of myself for getting it like a week ahead. Yeah, you did give me time to catch up. It won't normally be like a 48-hour window. Barely. But yeah, I was very in the first four seasons, as I think most people were. And then after that, it got to a point of just feeling like, okay, I get it. I get Black Mirror, I think. I get what you're going for here. It was kind of a combination of a little bit of repetitiveness, maybe, just that sense of

You know, it's like you have your whole life to write your first album and then you have a year to write your second album and you have a bunch of great ideas stored up for the first one. And then there's a little recycling maybe that goes on, a little remixing. So it felt like the quality was starting to decline a little when we got to season five.

And then I guess it was also just a little bit of the world feeling more dystopian as it was. I felt like I needed Black Mirror a little less, both politically, technologically, which was a testament to the show that it was sort of prescient. Every day of our real lives, we're in a Black Mirror episode. I don't need fictional stories about how phones are destroying everything because we're living it.

So it was a little bit of that. And then just long gaps between seasons, which is the norm now. But it was a couple of years before season two. And then, what, four years between, I guess—

Before season five, it was a couple of years. And then there you go. Another thing Black Mirror anticipated. Exactly. It was ahead of the game. And then it was four years, I think, between five and six. And I just fell off at a certain point. And I thought I was out. And then you pulled me back in. There you go. I Godfather three memed you. OK, that's exciting. Well, we're glad to have you back.

Daniel, what is your history with and relationship to Black Mirror? I was resonating with that a lot because my experience was very similar. I feel like season five was probably where I tapped out. And like at that point, I probably would see like a couple of episodes each season. But like early on, I used to be really into Black Mirror. Like I feel like especially like some of the first episodes were like very iconic and like just like hit this sweet spot of like being really unnerving. But like

having, like, some message out there. And they would always be, like, a few years ahead of, like, something that would happen. And you're just like, damn, like, they saw this coming. But, yeah, once it got a little bit further down the line, I, like, tapped out. And, like, season six, I only watched the episodes that I ranked in, like, our site ranking of the Black Mirror episodes. But when you mentioned it, I, like...

watch this and I mean we'll get into it more but I enjoyed a lot of them so I'm glad to be back into it and the idea was a return to form or at least a return to the OG Black Mirror British era of the show sort of so that that was a compelling pitch for me to think okay maybe this is the time to dive back in yeah still a

um larger american incursion than in the early years certainly but um yes the combination of the return to some of the british spirit and also as we'll talk about more in a few minutes to return to a little bit of the tonal uh vibe and sensibility like that but but more so the type of story black mirror was interested in exploring so i'm eager to chat with you guys about that um

to just continue to establish this like tapestry of our relationship to the show. I want to hear from everybody. I'll say for me, like I've always loved Black Mirror. Even the seasons, I think that even the best Black Mirror seasons are inside of them full of variants, right? Like I think that for the first four seasons, like each one of them contained an iconic, historic Pantheon Hall of Fame. Like we'll all be talking about it until we have been uploaded to the cloud by a Tucker robot.

but also some episodes that were either like outright duds or just not of that same caliber. But yeah, you know, like everybody else, I think the relationship to Five and particularly Six, I was less enthused, but I still watched every season in real time and really have always anticipated the arrival of a new Black Mirror season. It's just something I genuinely look forward to. And I think Charlie Brooker is such an interesting mind and such an interesting writer and creator. And I always find it fascinating to hear him talk about Black Mirror

the show and what he thinks people understand or don't understand about the show that he was making. I was actually just listening to, there was like a very brief little interview on NPR to pair with the arrival of season seven. And I'm paraphrasing, but he was basically like, yeah, you know, I'm always fascinated when people describe Black Mirror as a warning. And I was waiting for him to say something shocking about

because it's like, how could you not view it that way? But then he's like, to me, it's more about worrying. I'm like, okay, so we're really parsing the nuance and the subtleties there in that distinction. But, you know, the way that he talked about in that interview on NPR and just also more broadly, like, that it's obviously so much of the story in the world and the universe of exploration is rooted in fear and paranoia and what do humans do when they are put in a position to use or warp or control something that

probably should never have existed in the first place, and certainly that we should never have gotten our hands on to that level. But that it's not necessarily in his intention like tech phobia. It's actually that he has like a passion for an interest in technology and then the way that it roots its way into our world. So it's just to me always been like such a fascinating thing. And I like the idea that we, I mean, the three of us are

quite different ages. Ben and I are old and washed. Daniel's young and in the bloom of youth. But, you know, the idea... So I don't... What does it mean to say our generation? But, like, let's just be very... Let's be very liberal with that. You know, the idea of, like, our generation's twilight zone and this, like, you know, fairly popular and mainstream bit of culture that can, like...

provide a portal into this really heady and heavy ideas. I just think it's so cool. So I love that the show is still going. I love that we have it. I have my favorite episodes, I will say. And I asked you guys if you have favorite episodes. And I guess I'm not shocked that we have quite a bit of overlap on our list. But let's quickly run through these as well. Daniel, give us your top three to five. You can start.

You can go to six or seven if you want, but you can also just say here's one I like and I have no other opinions on this. Yeah, yeah. So top three. I mean, this is where the overlap is for you. Not to spoil your answers, but the San Junipero, Be Right Back, and the entire history of you. I think I really like lean heavily towards like the earlier episodes of Black Mirror. I don't even remember which season San Junipero was. Is that three or four maybe? Three, yeah. Three. Yeah, yeah.

But I was, like, looking through, like, our ranking of a lot of the episodes. And honestly, like, a lot of them, like, didn't really click for me. Like, I would have to look up what the log line was to remember exactly what happened. But, like, with these three episodes, I felt like after seeing them, they really, like, stuck with me. Like, I haven't seen the entire history of you in many, many years. But just the way that they kind of used that technology and tell that story, what, like, has still, like, I still think about that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Ben, what's your top three to five? Yeah, I tried to vary it up a little bit because it would have been very similar or identical. But yeah, I mean, obviously you have to have San Junipero on there because I think as much as Black Mirror is associated with dystopian terrorization,

Terrible endings. I think we like the lighthearted side of Black Mirror in a relative sense. It's usually not a fully happy ending, but that one comes kind of close. So it's nice as just a palate cleanser, change of pace when it's not totally dark and disturbing. So I would definitely put San Junipero, USS Callister, which another classic, of course, that we have a sequel to now to discuss. Mm-hmm.

And just to vary it up a little bit, I put White Christmas on there, which was a Christmas special. That was the last of the Channel 4 pre-Netflix era Black Mirror, and it was kind of a supersized, like three different storylines, Jon Hamm crossovers between a lot of those characters.

Sort of scary and dark, but... Sort of? Yeah. Very scary and dark, but yes, thought-provoking and went in a number of different directions. And then I put Nosedive on my list too, which is also one of the, I mean, deeply disturbing, but also kind of comedic at times.

because it was co-written by Mike Schur and Rashida Jones, who shows up, of course, in season seven in front of the camera. This is the one with the kind of rating system of everything and Bryce Dallas Howard. And, you know, we're constantly grading every social interaction, which is,

It wasn't even so much prescient as it was just, I think Mike Schur described it as a parallel universe, if anything, because that's more or less real life. But it had a pastel colored look that was sort of different for the series. So, you know, there are a lot of episodes that are sort of in the same vein, like the classic Black Mirror episode that we say in real life when we say that something is Black Mirror-esque, where it's kind of crossed over to the culture. But this is like that in some respects, but also different also.

Okay. I like it. I'm curious to know what you would have put on your list if you didn't feel that our list prevented you from doing so. The same ones. Yeah. Be right back. Entire history of you probably would have been on there also. Yeah. So...

As is perhaps now clear, my top five includes San Junipero, Be Right Back, and The Entire History of You as well. Those are my three favorite episodes. I think that the way I feel about them is like I'm always open to something new entering my life and wowing me. And I always hope that happens when I watch a new thing. But I feel like that's an untouchable top three until I die. Like those are just three of the best episodes of television ever made. I personally think that San Junipero is like my second favorite episode of TV.

after Winds of Winter. I just absolutely love it. And I think Be Right Back and Entire History of You are just gorgeous and harrowing and work their way into you, much like that grain that you would embed into your head. And I carry them with me and think of them often. To your point, Ben, about the way that we can gravitate toward that little kernel of hope, I remember when season four came out,

Jason and I did a Binge Mode Weekly episode on it, and we framed it as love and longing and the digital dystopia. And one of the episodes, even though that was the Callister season, the episode in real time that I found myself really gravitating for was Hang the DJ because it was kind of in that mold of like, okay, everything is so grim and so unrelentingly bleak, but like...

what if love could find a way and i i think because of the general tonal tapestry of black mirror when you get an episode like that it just like i don't know it feels like this little life raft in the storm in a way that i really admire and appreciate and don't think uh not only doesn't dilute the overall kind of like message and moral and um i was gonna say warning but i guess i should say worry of the show but actually kind of like amplifies it because you have like a point of of contrast there um

That said, when I was putting together my top five here, Hang the DJ got bumped because I've always really liked Callister, but I, in real time, was not like quite as, oh my God, we have a new instant classic as the rest of the internet seemed to me. But that is how I felt about her rewatching. I was like, this is just a total banger. Like, what an incredible episode of TV. Obviously, the performances are unbelievable. So I've got Sandra DiPero, Be Right Back, Entire History of You, USS Callister, and then Playtest rounds out my...

Top five. That's the Wyatt Russell episode also from that great stretch. John Walker. Yeah, I...

It's a different vibe than a lot of the rest of my list. Like, I think that is one of the most disturbing. I almost don't want to spoil the end of it for people who maybe haven't seen it, but it is just so deeply upsetting and unmooring. And one of the things this will come up today, I think as well, but that I'm really interested in in Black Mirror and like storytelling in general is can you trust your own mind? And what if the answer is no? Yeah.

And I just really like kind of dabbling in that space. I think that's a great episode. So, okay. Yeah. Yeah. We could do a whole button mash probably on the video game specific episodes of Black Mirror. You should. Not the greatest reflection on the medium generally. That might come up today.

That might come up today, Benjamin. Yeah, multiple game-specific inspired episodes this season. So it's a mixed bag on the whole, I would say. But yes, all these ones that we're all naming are kind of just foundational texts for the series that feels like a lot of the latter episodes are either explicitly responding to or are actual sequels to or spiritual sequels to or are sort of borrowing elements from, whether intentionally or unintentionally, certain technologies, just the idea of

Your consciousness being uploaded to something, embedded in something. It's sort of themes that the series plays with over and over again. And I think maybe most effectively the first time in a lot of cases. So that goes for a lot of these. That's one of the things I'm really interested in hearing from you guys about today because, you know, season...

In the earlier days of Black Mirror, there was like still enough room to say, oh, are all of these even in the same universe? And like, you know, all of the different versions of a nubbin or a green or whatever it's called in a given episode that you'd put on the side of your head. Like, OK, Tucker Soft and then TCKR. Like, OK, but you start to build it. And then at a certain point, undeniably, you're just like seeing updates on news broadcasts about figures from other episodes, including a truly shocking.

just sensational one in this season that I'm excited to talk about later today. But to that point, then you start to wonder like, okay, where are we in the sequencing and chronology and evolution of the tech? And do I need to be thinking about that actively? And then if I start to think about it too actively, I'm

Is that actually good for my experience of just, like, consuming and enjoying the show and thinking about the message inside of each story? How often do you want to go to the same pool? How often do you want something radically new? And how much of the point of sci-fi as it interrogates where we currently are in society or what is to come is, like, it's not really about always saying, exploring something new and different. It's actually sometimes about the undeniability of a certain creeping force, right? And so...

I'm sort of open to Black Mirror playing in the same sandbox as long as it feels fresh enough. And I think that's part of why, like, for me, even though season five was not nearly as successful, I still thought season six felt like a drastic overcorrection. This idea of, like, Red Mirror and shifting to more of a, like, horror genre focus, like,

Some of the season six episodes are my least favorite episodes of Black Mirror, period. And I just didn't think it worked. There were like a couple good episodes still. You know, shout out Aaron Paul and Josh Arnett, like now and always, obviously. But it just didn't work. And then to go to season seven, which is like, Ben, as you were teeing up, not only...

a return to form, but kind of a doubling down. We're not just going to go back to the same type of episode we used to do before. We're actually going to have two of these six be some version of a sequel. USS Callister Into Infinity is a literal sequel. We pick up with the characters where we left off, and this is like the second episode of a series that could just be made about the Callister, which they probably should do, because this was also super fun. Plaything...

not to be confused with play test, but obviously the similar names is part of what you're identifying, Ben, about, hey, we've got our video game slice of this universe, is people are calling it a Bandersnatch sequel. I think that's like slightly misleading. It is, I would describe it more as like

like, Bandersnatch connected tissue. Now, look, Will Poulter is back and it's just the same character, right? Like, Colin Ripman is here, so yes, okay, in that sense, a video game story that features the same performer playing the same character at the same video game company, sure, you could call it a sequel, but I think if people hear Bandersnatch sequel, they're going to think that they're getting something different than what Plaything ultimately is or seeks to be. I have two questions for you guys about this. One,

given that season six was not really a part of your life, how do you feel about this return and doubling down and sequelification of Black Mirror? What do you think that signals about the longevity of the show, the viability of the show, and focus of the show moving forward? Did you like that part of it? Do you want more of Black Mirror to feel that way? Or are you like, okay, I can't necessarily say that the conversation around season six moved me to consume all of it, but maybe let's not give up on trying something new

Next time. And then the second equally important question is, has either of you played Thronglets, which is the video game companion that they released to pair with Plaything? Benjamin.

I have not played it because I watched the episode. Disappointing. Wow. Yeah, fair. Why would I want to after that? Not the best advertisement for the game. It seemed like a beautiful bond, no? You're not ready to drill a hole in the back of your head? Yeah, for one person, maybe. But yeah, the Netflix video game strategy is fascinating because they keep kind of waffling back and forth between what are they as a video game company? And now part of it is just we're going to make tie-in games to our shows and whatever.

This is one of them. But I think in general, I guess it makes sense given that there's a larger library here and the show has been around for a while. And so enough time has elapsed that they can actually revisit some of these things.

But I guess I'm generally anti-sequel or I guess in moderation maybe. And, you know, you could have something that's between a sequel and an Easter egg, like we were just saying with the Bandersnatch semi-spinoff sort of tie-in. But I guess you could say it's an indication of maybe a lack of inspiration if your best idea is, hey, let's return to the idea that we had a few seasons ago. It doesn't necessarily mean that there's not more story to tell, but...

I would love to see them just continuing to strike off in new directions. Then again, if what I've been saying about how they do seem to circle back to some of the same themes and tropes and kind of unintentionally remake things, I guess if they're going to keep doing that, they might as well just make it an explicit sequel. But yeah.

But I would say, yeah, you know, it kind of becomes like a playing the hits sort of thing where you go to see the band play the album in its entirety that you like from your youth. But also you kind of wish that they were making good music that's new. Yeah. Daniel, what about you?

Yeah, I mean, for me, like going back and looking at all of the episodes that there were, I feel like USS Callister is really the only one that makes sense as a sequel. In part because of the way it ended, the first episode ended. They have them like going through the wormhole. It feels like they already were anticipating that they could pick this up for another episode. Genuine cliffhanger. Yeah. And for a lot of these other ones, they end like it's an ending. Like there's no returning to some of these.

And they make sure of that. But to Ben's point, too, I think they have been trying to

evoke a lot of the ones that worked well. Like San Junipero, for example. We all have that in our top five, top three. And I think they've just been trying to chase that high ever since. And a couple of episodes in this season, too, there's a lot of trying to go for that kind of vibe where it's not the disturbing thing, but you're really feeling impacted by what's happening in terms of emotional story, storyline, and just how technology isn't always necessarily bad. And there could be something like

it's good to come out of it like some like healing you know I think for the word Ben used moderation is I think how I feel about the sequelification of Black Mirror like I thought doing a Callister sequel was appropriate and I I'll spoil one of my later picks like I just I do actually just want them to do it again and can keep making Callister episodes let me say this let me get it on the record um

If they ever make a San Junipero sequel, we riot. Like, it can't happen.

It can't be allowed. No. And I don't anticipate that that would happen, but that is like a precious, perfect thing that must be preserved in amber. If it ever got to the point of reopening the intact chambers, these little TV miracles, that would be deeply dismaying to me. So I think as long as the either strands of Bandersnatchy connective tissue or flat-out

let's play in that Callister sandbox again. If we can limit it to that, I am not like totally opposed to it. I think, what is it? What is it? It's not like exactly like bringing back Robert Downey Jr. levels of like, oh boy, have we run out of all ideas. That's frustrating.

But like, you know, of course, I think, yeah, it's reasonable to wonder what that maybe signals. But if it's a dabble instead of a deluge, I'm not sure I'm like totally opposed, but I would hope that we continue to proceed with caution. Gotta pick your spots, I would say. Because we're so inundated in sequels everywhere else that my stance would be let the anthology show just be an anthology show. Yeah. But...

every now and then when it makes sense. And Callister, I think the way that it ended the first episode was also great. And if there had never been another, I would not have felt like it was in any way incomplete. It would have just been left to our imaginations what happened next.

But obviously they were interested in revisiting this over the past eight years in various different forms. So I'm not surprised that they did that and there could be more. But I think, yeah, there are times some of them there's a twist like San Junipero. A twist is a big part of it. And so how do you do a sequel there?

Once everyone knows the twist, you know, there's sort of a spiritual successor to that episode, I think Brooker has even said, which is actually my favorite episode of this season, as I will get to soon. Yeah, I'm interested to talk about that one. Yeah, that's going to be a controversial pick, I think. I think it's going to be less controversial than you think, actually. Okay, all right. But maybe. I also, I wonder, I mean, this is Brooker's baby. It's his thing. And he has said that he could keep it going indefinitely. But I do wonder whether there's something to be said for...

Opening it up a little more to other creators, obviously, you know, he's had co-credits and other people have have done scripts and story ideas, but it's still primarily him. And I mean, he's earned the right to to keep making this, I think, as long as he wants to and as long as people want to watch it. But I'd be interested in sort of franchising it out or at least like making the tent a little bigger, maybe just like.

If he's running low on ideas one year, then see who else has sort of a Black Mirror-esque idea that's a little less of a retread. This is your sequel. Let more people in the writer's room. You know, this is your Star Wars take. This is your big thing with pop culture right now. Yes. I mean, it's a great point, too. With something like this, it could theoretically go on forever, too. There's obviously always going to be more technology and more commentary to come and just things that are happening. Yeah.

And just the nature of the anthology format. I think it's always been kind of the problem. And the good thing about Black Mirror, too, is it's always been a little bit hit or miss for that reason. Like to your point earlier, Matt, there was just every season I feel like it's had a few misses. But to me, at least as we've gone further down the line, there's been more misses than not. Yeah, I think also like Black Mirror, it's like it's near term dystopian.

paranoia and examination, right? Like we're not, it's very rare that Black Mirror feels like it's something that's 60 years in the future. It's like often like, okay, well, this could probably just be our life in six months, in two years. And I think that simultaneously makes it like a richer vein to tap and like

Kind of a harder one when it does feel like the world is actually melting in real time around you always, because what is the commentary and what is the examination of the thing that feels more dire than just our actual circumstances? So in terms of the like long term viability of it, that'll be interesting to track. But it's a good season eight pitch, though. Just far future Black Mirror. Just go forward. Yeah. I mean, far future Black Mirror season eight.

Cold Lotus season four. Put the Duttons in space at some point. Crossover, yeah. All of it. All of it.

Okay, what did you guys think about season seven? Let's get into season seven. Start with a little table setting for just how you felt about the season overall. Like, did this feel to you like a successful season of Black Mirror? Did it feel to you like a return to form? We're going to get into some of the particular episodes. We have some kind of like rapid fire superlative categories coming. But how did you feel about the season overall, Daniel?

For me, I did not like the first two episodes at all. And as I was coming back to the show, I was like, damn, this is why I stopped watching the show. But when I started getting to the latter half of the season, I actually started to really enjoy it again. It reminded me of why I fell in love with the show in the first place. So it's tough for me in terms of return to form because I've been off of it for two seasons. Yeah. But...

Again, like a lot of the latter half of the season, I felt like this is why it worked in the first place to me. Okay. Ben, how about you? I'm with Daniel on the slow start on the – when I got back in, hoping that it was going to be both reminiscent of the glory days but then also hopefully original in some sense and then didn't feel like that initially. And I also thought, yeah, this is why. Yeah.

I got into it, too. I would say that the highs are not as high as the early seasons, but the lows are also not as low. That's how I feel about it, too. It's a lower ceiling, higher floor season, I think. Yes, exactly. Yeah. It feels like Black Mirror, you know, sometimes too much, I would say, in that you could kind of, you know, what you envision when I say it's like Black Mirror, it is that essentially. Yeah.

especially the first episode, which I think we differ on because you like that one. And Daniel and I were down on that one. Excited to talk about it, yeah. Yeah, it felt like a little bit of remixing actual sequel, but then stacked cast this season, maybe more so than ever potentially. So that helps even if you're working with some of the same story building blocks. If you have this cast acting it out, then it's worth revisiting. So not sorry that you pulled me back in.

Great. I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. Yeah, I think, like I said, maybe lower ceiling, but higher floor it felt. It's still like in any season, tons of variance. I liked a lot of the episodes more than I liked others. But the two to three that I would consider in the mix for my favorite episode of the season, none of them are sniffing my top picks.

probably not top 10, certainly not like top seven or eight. And I don't know that I would put any of these in like the bottom 10 episodes of Black Mirror either. So that's kind of interesting. Like I, in some ways, I think that's,

okay, this was a fairly compelling and enjoyable season of TV to watch. I had fun. And in other ways, I think part of why I've always not minded that high variance inside of a Black Mirror season is because sometimes when you're trying to hit a home run, you strike out, right? I think that sometimes the variance can stem from taking these really bold, ambitious swings. So I'm willing to be patient with some misses if it means we get some really exceptional things. I think we should get right into...

our favorite. And we do have... We have a different... We all have different picks here. You guys have some overlap. I'm coming in hot, I think, based on what you've just said about how you felt about the start of the season. But...

My favorite episode of the season, I will say, like, this is definitely one. I've left prior Black Mirror seasons, and I'm like, not only is this my favorite episode, entire history review, be right back, Santa Junipera. Like I said earlier, nothing will touch it. It's just so clear in my heart and my head what the best episode of the season was. That's not how I felt about this season. Like, the one that you guys picked was, I considered picking as well. I also, and I won't say what that is. I'll let you reveal it. But I also considered picking Black Mirror.

a third episode entirely, but when I rewatch it, will my answer here change? Entirely possible. Right now, just after the first experience with season seven, I think the one that

It's not my favorite for the same reason my other Black Mirror episodes are my favorite, but I think the one that I've been thinking about the most since I watched it, the one that feels like it got its hooks in me the most successfully and made me feel really sick and nauseous and...

just disturbed and dismayed in a way that I think is like really a Black Mirror's magic trick, right? Is Common People, the first episode of the season. I am going to have a hard time, I think, not enjoying an episode of television that stars Rashida Jones, Chris O'Dowd, and Tracee Ellis Ross. I mean, talk about like, you guys already teased the incredible casting, but holy shit, like the starring trio of this episode, they're just like some of my favorite performers. So I do think that was part of it. But

This episode, Mike and Amanda and Rivermind, to that earlier discussion point of, like, Black Mirror feels sometimes really close. This is just, like, tomorrow, right? Like, Rivermind's tech and servers in your brain...

I don't know. But in terms of an episode of Black Mirror interrogating where we are in the capitalistically driven gig economy of constantly needing to upgrade your subscription or your tiers or what you're buying on a streaming service or in a game or any aspect of your life in order to not only be able to like

enjoy something, but in this case, like literally function and survive. And certainly where we are currently politically with our health care system, like this just was like, I don't know, I found it very resonant and like haunting. And again, that's not necessarily what I usually leave a Black Mirror season saying that was my favorite. I'm like, oh, my God, these people decided to be together forever, like for all of eternity. How lovely. That's kind of what I like.

when Black Mirror makes me feel that way. So this is really different from what I would normally pick, but I left it feeling like a pit in my chest and in my stomach, and I think it's impressive that the show made me feel that way. So yeah, that just stood out to me, I think, as a creative achievement, though, again, just so upsetting that I think actually a lot of people were really not watching it. So favorite is maybe an odd term, but I think it was an achievement, that episode. And I just also had...

fewer notes on it, I think. Like, the one that you guys are going to pick, there was, like, a reason that I... Two reasons that I couldn't bring myself to pick it, ultimately, even though I liked a lot of other things about it. And I didn't kind of have those same, oh, this is the case against it reasons for common people. But you guys did. So I'm curious to hear why. Yeah.

Why was Common People not an episode that you guys liked? Tell me. Tell me. We can actually just kind of combine the first two categories because, Ben, this is like your – and Daniel, your pick for least favorite, which is our next category. So let's just do least favorite and favorite together. Why was my favorite your least favorite? Tell me. I thought it was very well acted. I cared about this couple very much, and it was pretty heart-rending. I guess it was – I kind of –

tend not to like the Black Mirror episodes that are very much like, this is something that is already happening, but just turned up a notch. Yeah. Because, you know, it just feels a little less inventive. Like, this is...

For those who haven't seen it, this is the one where Rashida Jones's character has a brain tumor. You know, she's on life support or near death. And there is a subscription service that essentially streams her brain, her consciousness so that she can go back to functioning. But then they continually postpone.

Upsell them on the streaming tiers and downgrade their service, etc. Can you drive out of your city without being turned off? What happens if you start spouting an ad in the middle of your elementary school? They shut her down to sleep more, which sounds great, but it's not very restful sleep. It's never restful. It's sleep mode. See, I found that so disturbing. I was like, I don't know. This feels to me like eerie in a way that I...

I think your point, Ben, is really valid, but I found it in the for some reason in this episode, it didn't bother me. And it actually felt like it like amplified and tuned up and turned up something that like really warrants assessment and discussion right now. So, yeah, I think I like admired it. But I guess. Yeah, I kind of felt like I knew where it was going once we got into it. Also, I felt definitely was part of the problems. Like I see I see where this is headed. Nowhere good.

So that was a little bit of it. A little bit of just, you know, again, hearkening back to previous episodes or feeling like an amalgamation of other Black Mirror episodes potentially. I think just all of that combined to make me feel like

oh, yeah, this is the sort of thing I've seen before and didn't really make me think about something that I haven't already complained about or thought was dystopian in real life. Yeah. Yeah, it was all of that, I guess. And also just, you know, it's a downer, which, like, watching Black Mirror, it's not a feel-good story usually, but the first two episodes of the season do culminate in people, like, being driven to take their own lives. Yeah.

you know, you have to kind of be in the right headspace to watch those episodes, whereas some of the later episodes are, you know, cheerful. Yeah. Not exactly uplifting, but kernels of hope. To be fair, the most cheerful quote unquote episode of this season, the plot device is a funeral. Just to be clear, this is like, this is not a happy season of TV. Yeah. Okay.

Daniel, anything else about why common people didn't work for you before we talk about which ones you guys picked for your fave? I felt a lot of the same things that Ben was just talking about because I feel like when the technology hits a little bit too close to home, it's kind of on the nose. And in terms of the storytelling, I feel like you can just tell where it's going to be going. Like each time they're coming back into the office for River Mind, like,

they're going to raise the price. They're going to add some plus, some new tier to it. And I felt similarly with the whole subplot of the dumb, I was about to say dumb Benny. Oh, yeah. Dumb Benny. That's super for Daredevil. Yeah.

The dumb dummies for the whole streaming thing. It's like, oh, the co-worker is doing this. He's going to start doing this. The co-worker is going to find out kind of thing. So you're kind of just waiting for the characters to catch up to it. And it's tricky because it's like with only an hour of storytelling, I think you have to do some of those things where you're foreshadowing those types of setups for the story to develop later on. But it's very easy for the audience to pick up on like exactly what they're going to do. Yeah, I think the – I did feel that with the like, okay, we're going to end up

He's going to drink his own piss. He's going to drink his own piss. Boy, we're putting on that glove and we know where that, we know fingers going, guys. Yeah. Taking off masks is a common theme, though. Taking off them. Exactly. I thought I did. I think.

I felt with the Rivermind subscription tier part of it that the fact that none of that was surprising was actually part of the commentary, right? Like, this was not an episode about the twist or the surprise. For me, it felt more like that slow march toward inevitable doom, right?

was the thing that we were meant to really sit in and think about. And that I agree with you guys that like doesn't always work for me in a Black Mirror episode, actually, but for some reason it did here. But let's talk about which ones you guys loved. Ben, you had a couple that you were, I think, torn between, but one of them was also Daniel's pick. So why don't we start with that one? Let's talk about Eulogy. Yeah, well, maybe I'll let Daniel talk about that one because I think ultimately, predominantly,

probably my second favorite. And since this way we can talk about different episodes at least. So I think, yeah, I'll go with Hotel Reverie, which now this I think is a controversial pick. That's yes. That's what I was suggesting. You're talking about eulogy. OK, no, I don't think this will be a common sentiment, but I

I really like this episode. I think this is the one largely in black and white where there's a remake of this classic, you know, Brief Encounters, Casablanca style classic. And Issa

Yes.

I would say undeniably. I rarely feel that way. As you guys know, I'm such a glutton. I'm like, make every episode of TV three and a half hours and make every season 20 episodes again. That's a given. That's a given. I could say that's part of the theme of the episode because Issa gets stuck in the movie for a very long time. But I don't know if that was intentional. Yeah, it could have been trimmed maybe. I guess it's partly that I like old movies. I like...

classic Hollywood cinema and all the movies that this was evoking and the black and white. And you love that we live in an IP streaming wars era where it's all content and very conceivable is going to take over. And you love all that. This is I mean, it's hardly the first. I mean, you know, this is basically like a Star Trek holodeck sort of scenario or, you know, there have been other black mirrors that are sort of reminiscent of this or Brooker. This is the one that Brooker said was sort of a spiritual sequel to San Junipero, which specifically

speaks well of it, at least in my mind. I would say he should not have said that about this, is how I personally feel about it. Just because it can't measure up. No, it is not. It is unfair, I guess, to put it on that pedestal too. Yeah, that raises expectations too high. But I think some of the tech stuff is, even by Black Mirror standards, just a little far-fetched or...

Lots of technobabble and lots of like, why are things happening this way? But I think the technology itself is pretty compelling. I mean, I would sign up for this experience, hopefully with more guardrails and safety measures, but...

Who wouldn't want to, you know, we would want to be in Revenge of the Sith, you know, which of us would be Annie, which of us would be Obi. I mean, we would absolutely do that. Imagine, you know, Chris and Bill and Heat in the restaurant scene. They obviously know all the...

The lines by heart. I mean, this would be a popular experience, I think. I guess it's sort of Westworld-esque also, again. Yeah, and whatever went wrong there, you know? It's hard to come up with a truly original idea, I guess, is the theme. But I thought that the performances were good. Daniel and I think both had one of the performances, at least in this episode, as maybe our top this season. And I thought the relationship was pretty heartfelt, too.

There were distractions from that.

that, you know, maybe it could have been a bit if we had focused on that instead of the resetting and the cutting to outside the movie world. But I thought it was among the more thought-provoking... A lot of time spent on the spilled coffee. Yeah, yeah. Among the more thought-provoking premises of the season. Yes, I agree. Made me think. And that's always what I want from Black Mirror. And yeah, maybe it was just, you know, kind of the period trappings of it that appealed to me personally. And it was, again, like...

There was darkness to this, certainly, but by Black Mirror standards, this was a love story. This was, you know, there was heart to it. There was some happiness, at least. Yeah.

And even sort of a happy ending, again, by Black Mirror standards. So I'm a sucker for what passes for not completely depressing in Black Mirror. Though even that, I'm like, at the end, I was like, is this, oh boy, we just, does Brandy ever leave that chair then? I don't know. It's funny, like, I would say, because this was an hour and 17 minutes, this episode, right? Yeah.

probably 30 even 35 to 40 minutes in I was like this is so clearly going to be not only my favorite episode of the season but one of my favorite episodes ever like it was trending in that direction and and I I still actually really liked it this was this was um not in consideration for my least favorite of the season I'll say that like I I thought it was it was good and interesting but um

It didn't have that, like, oh, this was a perfectly calibrated, crafted in an undeniable way, like, final result that some of the true best Black Mirror episodes did. And I think, like, the love story inside of the Redream film was really compelling to me, but, like...

Some of the stuff around it just kind of like... It didn't quite come together for me in the way that I wanted it to. And I thought that the length was like...

really a detriment at the end. I did think that what it had in addition to the love story, like what it had to say about kind of like choice and consequence and this idea of like when are you on the track and then when can you get back on by making other decisions was really interesting. And I think I actually would have liked if it like dabbled in that part of it a little bit more. But yeah, interesting pick. And yeah, I like the almost Bandersnatch-esque

Right. I mean, it's a choose your own adventure kind of started. The point is that she's just going to do a line for line remake of this original movie. But I think it would probably be more compelling to people if they did come

go off script and find some, you know, on the fly rewrites. And, you know, people would probably be upset about tinkering with a classic. But I would watch this version of things. Would you be more satisfied with the ending if it had ended as it looked like it was going to there with...

Issa Rae's character not saying the final line and just staying in the... Yes, and staying. Definitely. Yeah, of course, that's what I wanted it to be. I think that would have been more satisfying, but then also probably more San Junipero-esque and maybe would have felt like... Totally, but then I think... I guess this is the... This is... Now I'm just like, yes, ending what you already, I think, rightly identified at the beginning of the pod. Like...

I'm sort of like even inside of this season, forget the seven season run of Black Mirror, while I was compelled by the budding relationship and the draw that they had to each other, it's like the idea of a sentient AI that other people are seeking to control or manipulate that is in this other realm and then gain some level of awareness about that circumstance and will they get to be in control? I'm like, it's not even the best version of that in this season. Right? Yeah.

So I think that is like a thing that is weighing down and pressing down on the wider universe kind of undeniably. But yeah, this one felt to me like

They have the pitch, but maybe just the spin was like a touch off or a couple miles per hour off the picture or something. Yeah, they should have reset like they were going to in the movie and started over again. Maybe it would have come out better. But yeah, it's funny that we're talking about the hit rate being low consistently because we're talking about six-episode seasons here or three-episode seasons. Well, there used to be three-episode seasons. Yeah, even season five was three episodes.

episodes. Yeah, you'd like to think that the hit rate would be higher, given the, like, if we're not getting quantity, you would want quality, but. This one in particular, I feel like it had some really high moments, but also its low moments. Like, the first half of it, it took me a while to get into it, but once their world stops, and it's just the two of them, and it really focuses on that love story, I thought it really worked. That was really good, yeah. One of my favorite moments of the whole season, I think, is that, like, four-second window in which she has to, like,

like, oh, her mind's about to get white. Like, we've just spent months together and she's about to be gone in an instant. And then she was just gone. Yeah. And I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. And I think because we said this whole season was kind of middle of the road and high floor but low ceiling, the fact that this episode gave me some of those high ceiling sentiments, like, even if, you know, halfway through

It fumbled a bit, at least through that point, I had thought that this was going to be an all-timer. And there weren't really other episodes that gave me that feeling for the most part. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's talk about Eulogy. Daniel, this is your favorite. Ben, it was your runner-up. Second favorite, yeah. And it was in my consideration set to pick as well. So, Daniel, what did you love about Eulogy? Yeah, so Eulogy was actually the last one that I watched. I watched it a little bit out of order as I was preparing for this just because, you

I knew that USS Callister was so... It had to do with the running times, honestly. USS Callister is so long that I was like, all right, I need to set out some time tonight to watch it. And I just watched it this morning. And I got a little emotional watching this. I was very surprised by that. And it was just interesting to me in terms of the setup. Just to, I guess, recap a little bit of it. It's all really just a two-hander with Paul Giamatti and Patsy Farren. And...

Paul Giamatti's character, Philip, gets the news at the beginning of the episode that someone he knows has died. And as the episode goes along, you see how important this person actually was to him. And it's a very simple piece of technology in that he's just invading this memory space and it's just activating memories through photographs. And for me, honestly, with Black Mirror, a lot of the times when the technology is something simple like this that you could see being...

employed in like today's world it's more interesting to me and just I thought that it was just really really well done in the sense that it felt like a play it was like very like minimalist in the way that it's kind of it's just the two of them talking for a lot of it and their performances are so good and I feel like that just carries the whole thing for me so it just it hit all the right chords for me like on an emotional level

The next time Paul Giamatti is bad in something will be the first time that he's been bad. Right. It helps when Paul Giamatti is leading this. Yeah, and this really was a gorgeous performance from him. I mean, no surprise. But he was the perfect person to cast in an episode where so much would rely on one person's

and then introspection, and then, oh, I've been trying to suppress it and keep it down, but now it's going to overwhelm me like emotional truth. It was really lovely to watch. Ben, I want to hear what you thought of Eulogy, but I'll say quickly, I really liked the episode. Without question, this was the one that, Daniel, to your point, moved me the most and made me the most emotional watching, no question. I...

I found myself like I had two kind of nitpicks that I got maybe more hung up on than I should have. One is, you know, Adam and I were watching and it's like,

Oh, right. So it's like, it's the daughter. And I'm like, wait, are we, is this supposed to be a surprise? I kind of like couldn't tell if they wanted that to be a twist. It was just so apparent. And maybe that's the point that it's apparent to the viewer long before it is to Philly. Like, you know, the way she starts talking about the cello and what it would have meant to give that up and teaching the daughter. It's like, okay, well, yeah.

but that's what's happening. Why is he so slow on the uptake? That kind of bugged me. And then, though it was amusing when she's like, you said skip the intro. The bigger one for me is, okay, thematically what this assesses about memory and the role of memory and our sometimes refusal to

embrace and maintain our own memories, our need to bury them and hide from them, to protect ourselves. All of that is very interesting to me.

I actually think I needed this to have like a literal like eternal sunshine of the spotless mind explanation for how he couldn't remember her face. Because it like does, it actually didn't make sense. And it just really took me out of the episode. Like that I otherwise found very emotionally compelling. Like I get it. You scratched it over the picture with a penny or you punched through with a pencil.

but you remember every detail of the night as you navigate these photos and these experiences. And like, again, I don't want, I understand the commentary is it's too painful to remember. I get it. But it's like, I, especially because it's black mirror, I think it would have been helpful if there had been one degree further of explanation for why he could not remember, like an actual tech explanation, a thing he had done to blast her out of his,

ability to recall and then to awaken that memory I think would have been even more powerful. So that was just the thing that kept it from the number one spot for me ultimately, but I still thought it was a memorable episode and something I'll enjoy revisiting. And I could see like

enjoying even more in the future when I'm not having that first-time watch experience of like, does he not realize it's the daughter? Yeah, yeah. Which wouldn't be how I felt about it the second time. So, Ben, what about you? What'd you think of Eulogy? Yeah, I think what you're highlighting there maybe worked for me better just because there have been so many instances of...

that sort of thing happening in Black Mirror through technology, someone being blocked out of your memory or you're being unable to see someone, including some of the classics that we highlighted earlier. And so for that to be sort of a self-imposed thing, not a dystopian technology, but just our mind playing tricks on us, I think that worked a bit better for me. But really, it's just I also like those themes of sort of the malleability of memory and...

construct our own narratives about events and you

you think something when you're young and then that narrative gets solidified for the rest of your life. And then maybe at some point you realize actually I'm the baddie or I was wrong, or maybe they had a point and it forces you to reevaluate everything that you've thought. And this entire edifice that you've constructed around your life, you know, he's been bitter about this for years. And I like that it, it's, he was like, I thought she had blue eyes and they were brown.

then all of that works for me. But like, this is the most important defining person in my life. It took me 15 years to dig out of the hole, but I couldn't tell you a thing about her face, even though I can tell you exactly like the cello setup. And I don't know, it just, it like defied

It went to such an extreme in that respect, I think that it slightly defied full immersion. And also, I guess, right. Even though full immersion is the point of the episode. Yeah, the premise is basically like we don't know a lot about her life during this period, so we're trying to fill in the blanks for this memorial service. Right. And so it seems like

her face wouldn't be particularly important for that exercise, right? Because her daughter knows what she looked like. Presumably they have other pictures. I guess that was a way of forcing him to confront the past and pull out of him other memories. But it also felt like, yeah, why are we hyper-focused on her face? That's the one thing you do know. You just don't know all this personal history. Right, exactly. Yeah, but I like that it was, you know, kind of

a devastating ending, but then also bittersweet in a sense. It's like very moving when you see that he showed up in London. Yeah. And there's an implication that like maybe he'll have a relationship with the daughter. You know, she's like happy to see him come in and winks at him or something. And maybe there will be sort of like a

You know, I blew it the first time, but maybe surrogate dad sort of situation late in life here developing. So, yeah, I mean, we're just we're on a real run of dark sci-fi right now. For sure. Going from Severance to Black Mirror to The Last of Us to Andor.

You could put Daredevil in that category, too. Just a lot of darkness. Yeah. Just consecutively. And so to have a little light at the end of the tunnel at this episode and the performances, as Daniel said, were also excellent. Giamatti is always great, but also is often like doing Paul Giamatti, which I felt like this was a little bit of a...

different version of him. So, yeah. I thought like just the storytelling around, like I definitely see your point, Mal, in terms of him not realizing that it's the daughter, but that actually worked for me a little bit just in the sense that you see how toxic he is throughout the whole episode. And of course, you can see how toxic he is when he's like stabbing the photos or like different methods of like

getting her face out of them, like whether it's a cigarette burn and all these other things. But like from the beginning of it, like the first detail of like him not knowing that she was engaged, like he didn't even think to ask her. Like he was just so disinterested in so many personal parts of her life. And like they just see that in throughout the episode in a way that I thought was very, very clever, but a way of like unfurling who this guy is in a way that worked really well. Yeah. And that even extended to the ending where because he's the protagonist, he's the one actually on the screen, right?

we sort of sympathize with him at first and maybe at the end even, and we're thinking, oh, the last opportunity and she was waiting for him and he didn't show up and he didn't see the note. But then I'm thinking, are we again looking at these events through his framing and maybe she was better off without him, right? Like maybe he's sad and bitter, but maybe she was better off breaking off this relationship. I was more struck there like less by necessarily like the...

overwhelming sympathy for him because I think you guys are rightly identifying that he was quite a flawed figure but just like the what the episode had to say about regret you know and like that you could spend your life regretting a thing and not even really know what you were regretting or why

He just victimized himself. Yeah, that was all really great. Okay, we're way off pace. So let's go a little faster through the rest of our categories. Our least favorite episode. So you guys already chatted about why you didn't like Common People. Ben, the other pick that you had for this was

Plaything, and that's my pick as well. So why, give us a quick rundown on why Plaything fell to the bottom of the list for you. Yeah, there were things I liked about this. I liked Peter Capaldi's performance. I mean, it's always great to see 12. Wonderful.

One of the best doctors. I didn't even recognize him immediately. When he was 12, he looked fucking great. Like velvet blazers and just wonderful stuff. Wonderful stuff. This was quite a wig. Maybe I have higher standards for video game centric stories. I did kind of enjoy the like look at 90s gaming magazines sort of Halt and Catch Fire, you know, Tucker aspect of things. That was fun. I think it was just not divisive.

developed enough ultimately for me. That's how I felt too. It felt like an abrupt ending. This felt like... Very... I was like, the episode's over? Yeah. If Hotel Reverie was a little too long, this was the opposite. So...

It just didn't really sell for me. This is the one where there's a video game and the digital creations take on their own form of life. And they have this devoted acolyte on the outside who's just dedicated to expanding processing power so that they can get more and more powerful. And then at the end, essentially, we have some sort of singularity event. And it just didn't really sell for me.

what exactly these digital creations were capable of. Maybe it's, I'm just, I'm not really a Tamagotchi guy. Maybe that's part of it. But also, I just wanted... What about The Sims? I feel like there's a lot of The Sims in this, right? Or Spore, the Will Wright game. You boil people in the hot tub and what does that say? Yeah, where there's an evolution. The swimming pool. Yeah. For sure. But there was just a lot of like...

showing not telling kind of about like the relationship with these beings where we saw that he's conversing with them and it's just sort of presented in the form of like static on a screen and they're telling him to like buy Pentium processors and stuff but like what else are they saying like you know like and at the end

is this bad? Is this good? Like, what are they capable of? Are they going to... It seems probably bad. Seems bad. It's Black Mirror, but... Seems bad. Yeah, I didn't really get a sense of, like, the capabilities of... Definitely made me scared of QR codes. Yeah. Scanning a... You know, make sure you know what it is if you hold it up.

I'm anti QR code in general, but I just I wanted because he was just sort of selling like these digital beings are every much as valuable and as lifelike as humans. And yet we don't really get any insight into that.

their personalities other than like dropping boulders on them and having them bleed seems cruel. But, you know, like what are they talking to him about? Like what is their vision for humanity? What exactly will they now be capable of? They're just...

A lot of that was just sort of implied and not really shown to us. Yeah, I felt, I agree with everything you said. I thought the abrupt end of the episode was actually kind of astonishing to me. I was like, I can't believe the episode's over. But to that last point, Ben, I think obviously the commentary on humanity is quite clear. You know, we model this violent behavior and then when they are here to quote unquote save us, it's that violence that we taught them, right? Deployed in turn. But yeah, why...

are other than the cuteness and the sweetness and the little bird chirps and everything. Like, what is the throng? Right. You know, and we have the kind of like tech part of the, you know, they're going to start overwriting their own code and the way that they'll evolve. But like, what is going on inside of that throng and what is the throng working for was, it felt absent in a way that...

was kind of striking. So, yeah, I thought, I mean, seeing Will Poulter is always great and Capaldi just icon legend always. So the performances were really fun, but I was a little annoyed by the detective who was being the bad cop. Yeah. He was so angry, which I guess played into the theme of like humanity sucks and maybe it's better if we're replaced by digital beings. But like,

why is he so personally aggrieved about this decades-old murder? It seemed like too aggro for the circumstances. He was very upset about the suitcase. I feel like the ending of it, honestly, is like a big pitfall in Black Mirror in general where they kind of just have the twist at the very end

with the technology and then don't really explain what it is, but it's just kind of meant to leave this eerie feeling at the end of it. Right. You're supposed to sit with it and think about it. You're supposed to sit with it, yeah. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. Daniel, so let's bleed into the next category because our next category is the episode that made you genuinely afraid to be alive. And this was your, Plaything was your pick for that. So tell us why that's your pick for that category. Honestly, I was, for this prompt, I was like, I don't know if any of them really did for me this season.

But at least for like that one moment, even though it was completely unearned to everything we just talked about with it, just the moment in which everybody starts collapsing after like it's just taken over in an instant creeped me out. That's really when it comes down. I totally, from a storytelling perspective, I don't think the moment was earned at all. But just with the QR code taking it over and then everybody just like it took forever.

20 seconds or whatever it was. And then it's just game over. Game over for the world. Three body problem. Like suddenly everybody's phones have. Yeah. Or Stephen King book, The Cell, which is one of his worst, in my opinion. But he often has that problem with endings, too, where it's like the most compelling premise and a great twist. And then it kind of peters out a little bit. Yeah. He's my fave. But yeah. Yeah.

You love him. Well, let's keep these next categories combined and talk about like, let's get to an episode we haven't talked about at all, which was the episode that Ben and I both picked for episode that was made us genuinely afraid to be alive. And Daniel, it was one of your two contenders for your least favorite episode. So let's talk about Bet Noir. Daniel, why did you just like this episode? Ben, why did it make you afraid to be alive?

I felt very similar. I mean, I also had just watched Common People and I already expressed how I felt about Common People. And I felt very similar things in terms of the storytelling where, I don't know, it was just the watching this woman get gaslit the whole time. I think it was just like frustrating to watch. And a similar thing, I think, with Plaything for me where the technology just like wasn't earned, where they're kind of at the very end of it like,

we can just tap into parallel dimensions. And with this little press of my pendant, like I can activate it just like that. Just felt like way too much to happen at the very end of the episode. And it's just generally the whole episode as a, as a,

general arc around this main character just frustrated me with that especially with her final decision being like alright now I'm the Empress of the Universe and I was like okay yeah I was like torn between picking this and plaything for both of these categories least favorite and afraid to be alive and if I'm being

If I'm being honest with myself, this actually is my least favorite episode of the season. I just didn't want to pick it for both categories. So give Plaything the honor. Because it's definitely my pick for Afraid to be Alive. But I do think it was a neck and neck race with this and Plaything. But yeah, this was not a super successful episode, I don't think. The reason it's my pick for Afraid to be Alive is because...

The idea, it gets back to that thing I like, actually, about playtests. Can you trust your own mind? That's just such a disturbing idea to me. Like,

What if suddenly you didn't know what was real? And then in this episode, what if someone was weaponizing that against you? And the idea of nuclear-grade gaslighting driving people to the brink of murderous rage or suicide, the relationships in their lives falling apart, losing their jobs, all of it, right? Just your life unraveling because somebody who you did a terrible thing to sought their vengeance in the form of

making you believe you were going insane uh very upsetting very upsetting premise this is not something that i would want to uh uh have to live through so this was my pick also for thing that most made me feel afraid to be alive and i'm with you daniel that there were fewer of those in this episode in this season but it actually wasn't for the the gaslighting so much as for the ending where we thought you're gonna say the ingredients paired in the food you're not

Like a miso in my candy bar guy. A miso, yeah. Yeah, I don't know about that. It grows on you evidently. But yeah, I think that was less scary to me than the idea of being able to do anything you want and thus not getting gratification from anything. Which, I mean, the multiverse as a concept scares me. Scares me both when it's applied to the stories that we care about and it often sort of...

ruins them or, you know, damages the stakes, but also for the same reason that it might harm... No idea what you're referencing. No. No idea what you're talking about. But for the same reason that it sometimes screws with the stakes in stories, it would in real life because the ending of this is basically I've done everything. I've tried everything. I had the ultimate power and

And none of that satisfied me. And that is why I am tormenting you here. The only thing that will make me happy is destroying you. Yeah, my grievance, my grudge that has been with me my whole life, that's the only thing that could make me happy. So that idea of like if you can do anything, if you can go to any universe and be anything, then why bother destroying?

doing anything at that point. There's a lot of that, like, everything everywhere all at once. Yes. And I felt like that's where it, like, packed in at the end and it just wasn't nearly as effective as everything everywhere at once because that's a whole movie that's dedicated to that idea and it does it beautifully. Yeah. This was the episode on my mind when you were, I think, totally fairly, Daniel, identifying earlier that common people felt like there was...

no, I mean, both were saying no mystery about where it was going. This one was like the other, the scale tipping too far in the other direction where it's like, what is this episode about exactly? It's clear, right? That like everything with Verity is like, okay, yeah, no, this is a pursuit of vengeance. We saw that the hat said Barney's, not Bernie's. Like we saw the email had that line in it. We know what truth is and we're trying to figure out what the, what,

the ultimate reveal or nature of that manipulation of reality will be. But even just like the interstitials with the day of the week and the food, you're kind of like, wait, what's this episode going to be about?

Like, are we getting, you know, what form is the reveal coming in that I thought was like, I don't know, almost like distracting for the sake of it. But okay, sounds like we're all pretty aligned on that one. That might have been better. Just designing different types of food would have been a better episode. I thought the food looked delicious, frankly. Okay. Our next category is the story that you would be most interested in reading.

continuing to explore in a future sequel in a future season. I already told you guys what mine is. Give me a third Callister. Um,

I will say, USS Callister Into Infinity, which we actually, despite this being, I would say, far and away the most high-profile and anticipated episode of the season. Not one that we have talked about really at all today. But it'll come up for me in the next category. But I thought that this was really good and really fun, but just not as good as the first one. It couldn't quite measure up to the shock and the surprise. And I think some of the aspects of it that were...

intentionally parallel in nature worked to, you know, if we're talking about our guy Bob Daley, emphasize something, right, about the nature that lurks within. And then in other circumstances, emphasize

like, okay, yeah, no, we get it. We did this before and the first time was like awe-inspiring and this time it feels like we did it before. But still, I thought it was one of the more successful episodes of the season overall and I would like to be back with those characters who I find like immensely entertaining. It's a great little ensemble and figuring out how they're going to get out of Nanette's head is something that I'm interested in exploring further. So that's my pick. What about you guys? Do you want another Callister? Do you have another episode that you would prefer to...

return to an expanded canon form? Yeah, I think just because I was generally down on going overboard on sequels, I'd rather confine it to Callister and just have Callister be the thing that continually gets sequels. And it seems like they're into that because at one point they were planning a limited series that would just be Callister. And I think... That would be fun. Yeah, I'd be into that. And Brooker, I think, went through three or four different story ideas for where this could have gone. So it seems like there's more meat on that bone, maybe. And

Yeah, I was sorry that Michaela Cole didn't get to be in this one. She just had a scheduling conflict, and so she sort of just died off screen. The classic, like, writing out a character. Yeah, she's one of my favorite characters in the first one, so that was too bad. Yeah.

And yeah, there were certain storytelling choices that either were kind of reminiscent or, you know, convenient with like the car accident or just other things that, you know, I would have liked to be explained a little more, I guess, or just like, did they have to go around killing other characters? Like, can't they do other things? Like, why do they can they make money in other ways or just?

Why do they even need money? Like, they don't... I don't know. Can they just live and let live? It's a whole universe. But, yeah, there were certain things... You need to be able to afford that hyperspace route, right? I guess so, yeah. But maybe they wouldn't need hyperspace if they weren't fleeing from people they'd attacked. Right. Yeah.

Maybe they can't get a legitimate job because they don't have GamerTags or whatever, but I don't know. But yeah, I mean, they did sort of leave room for another sequel, I think, with the way that it ended. So I'd probably be into more of that. And it seems like there's enthusiasm, I guess, there.

Yeah.

Yeah, there are a few, I guess, that might fit the bill. But generally, I'm not really pro-sequel to any particular episode. Yeah, yeah. What about you, Daniel? I love that the end of also like this episode is basically the setup of like the –

inside out in terms of them just viewing out from the panel. I couldn't stop thinking about that as the episode was ending. I was like, is this just going to be inside out at the end? There was a strong inside out aura. There was like a lot of Doctor Who in that as well. Yeah. Like I would be curious about doing another one of those just because I feel like such a big part of

the whole Callister series, I guess you could say at this point, is just how much of a send-up it is of Star Trek and shows like that with all the lens flares and everything. But I don't know why they would go back to space at this point. I feel like it would just be about them extracting them out of her head. I think that's really a lot of what Ben's saying too. I don't see any need, I guess, of...

Black Mirror going the whole sequel route, I think it just makes sense in terms of this whole anthology formula that they have going to keep sticking with this. And going through the whole list of episodes, again, there just wasn't really another one where I would want to see them continue that storyline anymore. Yeah. I guess Black Museum, which is also a good episode. That was, I think, the season four finale. Yeah. That also has that sort of transferring a consciousness into someone else's head kind of set up.

Some of the ones that just don't explain a lot of the world, I think there's room to expand. I mean, Plaything, for instance. I was thinking about Plaything, too. What actually happened after that point. But some of them, I kind of like the mystery of it and don't really need it explained. Like, Metalhead was that episode with the robot dogs. The dogs, yeah. Yeah, and you don't really know what's going on in this world or, you know, why are they chasing people? That seemed like kind of a compelling setup to flesh out this scenario, but...

I'd rather just see something new, ultimately. I think it would have to... To your point about plaything, too, is I think there'd be opportunity to try to, like...

fix some of the issues that these individual episodes had in the first place like now they could actually get into what the throng are and and do that but like i don't think i would want to see that because i didn't think this episode was great in the first place and now you can play the game if you want exactly now we could go what could go wrong evolve our own yeah or nosedive the episode that i shouted out earlier that could maybe be sequel like what happens after you're off the grid essentially you're unrateable are you happier at that point what is your life like but

Yeah, it's... Bricker said that he has a bunch of ideas for things that he'd like to revisit. So, yeah, it's hard for me to come... It is a little concerning. There's just so much technology at this point that they could just recycle it and just have new characters and do that. But there's just so many opportunities to just start anew, so... Yeah. We don't want Black Mirror to become...

our version of Entire History of You where we were just like re-watching the prior experience back. Okay, favorite performance from season seven specifically and I'll stick with Callister for a moment. I mean, we already talked about I loved the Giamatti performance in Yule GL. I did, despite not really liking Plaything, I did like the Capaldi performance. Yeah, me too. Really deranged in a very fun way. This was actually the single easiest pick of any of the categories for me

jimmy simpson should win an emmy for for uss callister into infinity for the double walton this was like incredible first of all just as was the case in the first callister genuinely comic like very very funny physically funny witty rude acerbic um

The bulk of the, oh shit, this is what's really afoot thrust of the plot of the episode also hinges on his character in...

Both realms? Like, what is actually waiting at the core? How did this DNA, like, device come into this company in the first place? Everything with that, but also just the, like, nature of what he is trying to mask or shield or preserve in the real world. The fact that he had to be so sinister and so...

my ass is hanging out and my scrotum is visible on the table all in the same episode was I thought just like really fun to watch so he's my easy pick I thought he was sensational what about you who are you both picking for favorite performance of the season yeah we sort of had the same ones yeah Paul Giamatti I think for we kind of covered that one a lot that I thought he was just so good and just the way that again they unfurled his character and just the range of emotions that he's showing in his performance from just like

to regretful, to sad, and to like,

Him realizing at the end how wrong he's been about so many things and just realizing how toxic he's been. And then Emma Corrin, I thought, was really, really good in that. I felt like there was something silly about the whole classic movie in terms of the other actors. I felt like they were performing to be in a classic movie, except Emma Corrin really sold me in that she was doing this and just the love story that she's able to tell with Issa Rae. Issa Rae I also thought was great, but I felt like a lot of it she was just being Issa Rae, which is...

She's great. But yeah, like Emma Corrin, I feel like was very like transformative in that role. Yeah. Moments where Dorothy poked through Clara. Right. Because she's playing this, yeah, this period drama role with the mid-Atlantic accent sort of thing. She's nailing that. But then when the humanity comes out and they break script, she's also excellent at that. So yeah, that really sold the love story for me. So yeah.

She'd probably be the top one and then Giamatti. And then also, even though we didn't love Bette Noir, I thought Rosie McEwen was good in that episode as just the, you know, creepy avenging former milkmaid.

She sort of sold for me the, you know, looks nice and innocent and friendly. But also when she stares at you from across the room, you are actually kind of terrified. Her drinking the carton of almond milk was so unhinged. It was such a great moment. Even though I didn't like that episode, I was like, what is happening right now? Just the silence as they're staring at each other. Nut allergy. Nut allergy. What's nut allergy? Who knows?

Great picks. A lot of great performances across the entire season. All right. Our final Black Mirror category is just favorite in-universe reference or Easter egg. There are always a lot. There were so many this season. They were never more than a couple scenes without something.

I'll go first here. I always love the many San Junipero nods. We got a bunch of them here. Mike and Amanda are dining at the Juniper in Common People. Brandy lives on Junipero Drive in Hotel Reverie. The Ned is at St. Juniper's Hospital. Of course, all the Tucker Soft, Tucker, General, Corporate Behemoth looming stuff across many of these episodes. That's always like one of my favorite things, the little winks to San Junipero. But

I think my actual pick is when we see the news broadcast of Walton being taken into custody. We're getting a lot of the Easter eggs on the scroll. But the wink to National Anthem, the episode that started it all, right?

Former UK PM Michael Gallo enters celebrity vet school. It was very funny to me. Of course, he had to fuck a pig, in case I forgot. So...

Enjoyed that. Great stuff. What about you? What do you each have for your favorite? Yeah, that was another prescient Black Mirror moment that foreshadowed a UK political controversy. But for me, I think it was the use of the song Anyone Who Knows What Love Is by Irma Thomas.

Which was in Common People, an episode that we kind of dumped on. But I liked that that song showed up. It's sort of the, yes, the unofficial theme song of Black Mirror, basically. It's appeared in every season, one episode per season. And here it's the lounge singers at the Juniper, another San Junipero reference. Yes.

it's almost unrecognizable, the performance. But yeah, that song, it's just sort of fits perfectly for Black Mirror, just the themes of the show. Like it's a great song, but also it's slightly unsettling. It's like a love song, but it's about a woman who's staying with a guy, even though he doesn't treat her well and he's kind of defending her. And yeah, it's a fitting, I think, unofficial theme. So I was glad to see it show up again. But I think really all the

intra-season references this season were the highlight for me. More so than the callbacks, it just felt like more than ever, the new episodes were all sort of knitted together. Just various signs and tickers and chyrons. Yeah, did a honey nugs call out common people. Right, it just helped sort of unite them or make them feel like they were kind of taking place in the same universe. I thought you were going to say I really want to highlight an MCU Easter egg and talk about how Eulogy was clearly inspired by Tony Stark's barf tech. But that's not what you said. No.

Daniel, what about you? For me, I liked the Sanjana Peril ones, but I threw on a couple that wasn't already listed. I liked the mention of the autonomous bees in the beginning of Common People just because I felt like things like that are just cool ways to show that it's all part of the same universe and teaching it within a class space. Yeah.

The Barney's chicken like was one of those moments where I thought it was funny because like I was like, do I was this already in the show? I had this like similar moment of what they're experiencing. I was like, was it Bernie's? Was it Barney's? And then looking up like a list of Easter eggs afterwards, I was like, yeah, this this is appeared in like four other episodes of Black Mirror. I thought honestly there was like too many Easter eggs in this season. Like it's getting a little bit too like self-referential for me. There were a lot. Yeah, there was a lot, especially with Santa Giudapero and like

It's great. You know, great episode. Yeah. Remember that episode? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally fair. It was a lot. Okay. Anything else on Black Mirror Season 7 before we shift to The Devil of Hell's Kitchen? I think I'm back in. I'm back in.

I'm ready. Season 8. Let's see it. Back in enough to anticipate Season 8, but not back in enough to play Thronglets. Or to go back and watch Season 6, probably. You don't need to do that. Yeah, I won't. I would say that if you...

If you had some time and you wanted to watch Beyond the Sea. That's the Aaron Paul, Josh Hart and Kate Mara. That's actually a really good episode. Yeah, that was when I wanted to go back and watch. You can skip Maisie Day. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. It's starting to look like spring and spring starts with savings at The Home Depot. There are savings for every project, whether you're starting with a queen slate with convenient cordless power, like a new pressure washer.

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The new season follows Debra Vance making a move from her Vegas residency to Hollywood showbiz. Tensions rise as Debra and Ava try to get their late night show off the ground and make history while doing it. Starring Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder, Hacks Season 4 is now streaming exclusively on Max. And don't forget to check out the official Hacks podcast on Spotify. Okay. We're running long. So we're only going to spend...

I don't know. I was going to say we're only going to spend a few minutes, but we'll see. We're going to try to only spend a few minutes talking about Daredevil Born Again, Episode 8, which is...

is the penultimate episode of the season, because this is a nine-episode season of television. This episode, Isle of Joy, directed by Aaron Moorhead and Justin Benson, and written by Jesse Wigato, and new showrunner, replacement showrunner, Dario Scardapane. So this episode was...

My favorite of the season, I thought the best of the season by a pretty comfortable margin. I still think that the Punisher-Matt scene from episode four was the peak of the season. Like, that was the best scene of the season. That's the thing I'm going to think about the most and wish they had just done. I'm just like, why didn't you do that?

I don't understand still. Why? Maybe next week. Maybe. Maybe. Dare to dream. But, you know, the fact that the basically like new sub-in replacement show team was the team that made this episode and this episode worked, I thought, quite well. Not only to set up the finale, but just...

more importantly, ultimately, to signal what the future of this series can be, what season two will hopefully be like, and what Daredevil might be in the MCU. It had an outsized impact on me in that respect of encouragement moving forward for like, okay, we had a lot of material that we had to find a way to make work, and some of it worked well and some of it didn't, but we were going to use it. And now we're in the new era moving forward. So I enjoyed it, and I felt like

pretty hyped coming out of it. I thought that there were a few different things I want to hit with you guys that are worth discussing in a little more detail, but just at the most basic level, yet again, the heavy intercutting between the Matt and Fisk scenes when they are not together, and then obviously we get to the point of melding our color schemes and our dance partners as we're swinging around on the ballroom floor together. That's

That's all quite compelling and just what a wonderful treat to have Bullseye back. What a treat to have Dex back. I cannot believe Joe and I have been a little ships in the night with our schedules during the Daredevil run.

The fact that I missed talking about Frank Castle in real time and Joe is missing talking about the return of Dex is... I just can't believe that happened. The fates are cruel. But because Joe is not here with us, I will say...

Joe can fix him. I'm going to get that out there for Joe. Joe can fix him. So, yeah, what did you guys think just at the broadest level there? Did you enjoy this episode? Daniel, you wrote a great piece about it. You've been covering the entire season. Ben, you were like, you know, you guys asked me to pod, so I'll catch up. Sure. But did you guys also think this was the most successful episode of the season? Yes, I think. Yeah, we're probably both with you on that one. Yeah, I mean, we had a twist. We had a cliffhanger. We had...

We had beloved characters returning. We had interpersonal tension of all kinds. We had some interesting cinematography. I don't want to go overboard with the complexity of the blue versus red. As you said in your recap, Dale's not exactly subtle, but we get the point.

So, yeah, this I guess it feels a little bit like if only the whole season had been like this. But the glass half full interpretation, as you just said, now would be. But maybe next season and also next week will be like this. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely thought I agree with you. I think this was definitely the best episode by far. To the point, like, still trying to be optimistic about it, but it really showed, like, there was such a difference between this and, like, the past six episodes that were a part of the old regime. There were certain episodes that I liked. Like, I really liked that, like, the bottle kind of episode of the bank robbery. Yeah, the bank heist episode five. Yeah, like the inside man kind of thing. I liked that one as well, yeah. But this one just, like, worked so well to me. And even just from, like, the first scene, there was just—

different visuals and just a different sensibility of how they're telling it, like focusing on that rose and then pulling back and then it's Dex.

So a lot of it just works really well. And I feel like they had been dancing around Kingpin. And I think you and Joe have been calling it like the dark mirroring of their storylines. And to actually have them back was really exciting, like at the black and white ball and like having those two characters on screen for the first time since their heat impression in the diner in episode one. Yeah. The diner scene was so riveting and...

you know, part of ultimately like a well-structured and well-conceived season is to like make us wait to feel that again, but to be back in that moment, like it's, it's actually, it's funny to be covering Black Mirror in the same pod as a Daredevil season because yeah, you're right. Like we have, we, we love talking about, um,

that dark mirror aspect of the Matt and Fisk pairing, the Matt and Frank pairing, the Matt and Bullseye pairing, all of it. So, like, that was just so present in the text of this episode. And, like, when... You know, this was, I thought, easily the most compelling Matt and Heather episode. That just has, like... That relationship has not worked for me at all this season until this point. And...

That opening stretch, like you said, Daniel, like, to move from the Rose then into this intercutting of the various relationships and their dynamics and the way that we can feel how this, like, plot is going to finally meld and bring people to the same place and moving them closer toward the same plane of shared understanding. Like, we didn't actually get to the moment where Matt tells Heather that he's Daredevil, but, like...

we got pretty close he's like oh let's go find out you know and like the way that went on that by now as a person i mean i agree i've got just a lot of notes on that yes character still but it was i think for that reason like it felt cathartic and necessary to hear them have this muse daredevil argument like i saved me they were both out there for themselves yeah i don't

personally agree with that read from Heather. She was brutal. That was a little gratitude. Just, you know, I just saved your eye. I mean, yes, you fired the bullets ultimately, but I get that we're... For Matt to have to think about whether that's true. Right. Like, I don't think any of us would say that it was totally a fair thing to say about Daredevil, but it is interesting for Matt to have to confront

what the mask means not only to himself, always part of what's fascinating about Derek Hovold, but also what it means to other people. And like when Heather's like, you know, Matt, I loved when Matt said, if he's in your life, then he's in our life. But what was really great was, you know, he's like, he's trying to like co-opt your story and boost his narrative. And she's like, if his narrative is the vigilantes are dangerous, then he's got my vote. Like this is not the foundation for a...

lasting successful relationship. These two have pretty radically opposed worldviews. And ever since we started hearing Heather talk about like her, you know, the focus of her next book back at her book signing, we've been heading toward this point. But it was, I thought, overdue but fulfilling to see it kind of bubble to the fore. Yeah. I just love her like calling them like underdeveloped boys. Yeah. Like in terms of the masked characters and Matt's just like, oh, I don't know about Daredevil though. Like,

They're terrible guys, all right. He's okay. He seems pretty chill. He needs to make some good points. Yeah, no, I get her point about the unprocessed trauma here that is being expressed by both of them, but slightly different expressions, I would say. I mean, it's a little bit like my Dex, Dexter Morgan. You know, he's channeling his dark passenger, his urges into, well...

A more violent way than Daredevil, but a little more pro-social than some of the serial killers he's attacking. So, you know, slight but meaningful differences between these characters. Yes, ultimately. I thought that everything at the ball, just to stick with Matt and Heather for one more moment here. Yeah.

There were some moments where that stretched the episode, like, as we're kind of porting in and out of different tables and conversations, and, like, we move into the Jack-Artemis exchange, and then Jack almost seems like he's, like, frozen as we, like, the camera pans. Some of that got, like, a little too cute for me, but Heather talking to Vanessa about how she got stood up, and then Matt showing up late with the

Chanel number five. So you're not the only one that can find it. You're not the only one wearing Chanel number five. And then the way he was like, yeah, he has a little giggle afterwards. I thought it was just great. And the like, you're not listening sequence was, I thought hysterical. Like that was like some of the best stuff they've done this season. And Matt is, this is like what I really love. I mean, Charlie Cox's Matt Murdock is just, you know, wonderful and a favorite. Um,

One of the things that Joe and I really love talking about in the Primer Pod and that I really love about this version of Matt Murdock and Matt Murdock in general is he actually is really flawed and does a lot of things where you're like, Matt, why'd you do it that way? And this was one, right, where you're like, Matt, you're trying to convince her that like...

You're not as emotionally and physically distant as she's claiming, but like in real time, twice in that conversation, you can't help but superhero. That's crucial plot points. It is. I know. We needed him to do that, but Heather needed him to be more present in their relationship. God damn it. That was great. What about the Vanessa and Fisk part of it? Because obviously Heather and Matt are not the only couple. We're really working through it. Tough, stifling.

stuff for our guy Adam and his very capable and memorable fingers. You know, we've been tracking all season the presence of Rabbit in a Snowstorm. We got another little bit of Rabbit in a Snowstorm action, not only panning across the painting many times, but...

Made a new one with Adam's brain splattering all over the wall of his jail cell. What did you guys make of Vanessa's choice? What did you make of Fisk's

declaration you know this is a real like uh connected to the iconic season one netflix moment like i i'm not a monster am i you know i'm better than i was i am i am you know the way he's not always not only trying to convince uh her but himself um i'm really eager when we get to the the ballroom part of it to talk about how we think he's going to respond to her having kept

the foggy decision from him, which is, of course, a violation of the pledge that Matt and Fisk made very memorably in the season three finale that Fisk then recalled in the heat scene, Daniel, as you said, in the diner scene. Like, I told you I wasn't going to do that and I didn't do it. So we have like a new, you know, potential for a little bit of a fracture there. But, um,

And Vanessa's decision not to pick up the key, but to pick up the gun. What did you guys what did you guys make of it? I'm always rooting for these two. Yeah. Heartwarming. Honestly, just great to see them get back together. And they could have saved all that that counseling time and money. All they needed to do is just bond over murdering a former lover. Well, you know, Buck Cashman would say that they had their agenda and it was being able to knock on the door of Matt Murdock's apartment whenever they damn well planned.

pleased to get to give Heather an invite to a ball. Yeah. As you said in your recap, tough sell that, you know, I'm better than I was when better is merely imprisoning someone indefinitely rather than executing him. I mean, it's progress, baby steps, I guess. But yeah, I guess, you know, it was a demonstration of loyalty. It was very final turning the page on that interlude in the relationship. And so, yeah,

It does then make you wonder, yes, like, will they have to go back to counseling after the revelation in the finale, presumably? And will Heather be up for that at that point? So the relationship will be tested. But it seems like they're getting along great. You know, you had the kind of fake out with Vanessa betraying Wilson, but not really. And actually setting up the murder. And then, you know, they're just.

on the same page. They're just vibing their power couple right now in the spotlight at the ball. So great to see them back together. Don't know how long it will last.

Yeah, I feel like, like, big picture for Vanessa, I think a lot of it works in the sense that I like that they're giving her character her own storyline and, like, her own arc in a sense that she has this more power that she was given while Fisk was gone. But for me, it hasn't worked across the whole season because they just haven't shown her enough, like, outside of, like, there's been a few, like, the, like, dining table scenes where they're talking or the therapy sessions, obviously, but there just hasn't been enough of, like, purely, like,

Like, what's Vanessa think about all this? So I liked that they started this episode with having her have this choice and having her actually shoot him in that way was like, you're seeing her. She's changed. This is not the same Vanessa that she was in the original Daredevil series. And I'm glad that they're starting to do a little bit more of that now. But I wish this was something that was there throughout the whole season. But now that we're getting to the end of the season, I'm glad that they're starting to tie that relationship up a little bit more.

It was interesting to hear Fisk, you know, in the opening of this episode, like, give her some of what she had needed, which is just the active, oh, I'm not going to, like, cover and say, like, we got to maintain this distance. It's an active embrace, again, of their role in controlling in a public and visible and, quote unquote, like, official and sanctioned way. And then in all these other ways as well, the city, and for him to, like,

credit her right for the work that she had done and the thing that she had maintained and built rather than like the for that that to shift out of that period of resentment the secrets the abandonments the respective betrayals into like you kept it afloat and we're here because of you and

To then shift to a moment where it's revealed anew at the end of the episode that there's been a level of withholding. Yeah. It felt very interesting. I think, like, you know, in terms of your point, Daniel, about how Vanessa's character has evolved, like, you know, when we see her in season three, like, choose to go into that control room and say, show it all to me, like...

That part of just the kind of natural then continued evolution of her desire, whether it's to have her hand at the head of the table or on the trigger or whatever the case may be, I've... That's been one of the more successful parts of the season to me. I think I liked the counseling scenes more than a lot of people did just because, like...

quivering voice Fisk talking about how much he loves his wife is just always one of my favorite parts of the Daredevil television universe. But the characters, what made me, what you were saying made me think of Daniel is Cherry and Kirsten in terms of like, who are the characters who have suffered this season from just us not getting nearly enough time. That's definitely a bigger issue than I said. Yeah, so like where are you guys with, because you know, the Midnight Boy's

Pew, pew, pew. Gave Daniel a pause on everything. I know, you even looked at me. I was trying to cut you off with a pew, pew that time. Damn. The guys had a conversation on their instant reaction pod about this and about how this episode felt like a little bit of a leveling up. We were getting a little bit more out of Cherry that this has been something they were waiting for. And I thought the conversation between Cherry and Matt at Josie's was like,

You could feel the friendship between them and you could feel the history between them. Same thing with Kirsten when she pulls Matt aside and he's like, you know, this thing that we're doing, like just what is all this? Which was then another version of when he had said to Heather last episode, like this to me just all feels kind of fake. And I've kind of met a commentary of that for this like new version of the show versus the thing we got before is interesting. But yeah.

You know, we just have, I think, not gotten nearly enough from Cherry and Kirsten to even attempt to say these are the relationships of consequence.

in Matt's life compared to Foggy and Karen. And as much as I liked this episode overall, I think still with one episode to go in the season, that remains just an undeniable shortcoming of the season and failure of the season to try to even replicate or measure up to or even approximate that thing. And if the part of the point was that that wasn't going to be possible because of who Foggy and Karen were to Matt, then making that a little bit more of an actual

an active thing that Matt is reflecting on. Um,

And like the guys talked about, you know, part of what we've just really been missing, and this is why what you were just saying made me think of it, Daniel, is just literally any time with those characters outside of a conversation with Matt about how he's either being a bad lawyer that day or shouldn't be returning to being Daredevil that day. Like, it's just that's been it. So where are you guys with this? Even if there's more screen time, it's the same. It's just, are you okay, Matt? You seem like you're not doing great. Seems like you're blowing up your life. Yeah, maybe I am. We've seen that conversation a few times this season.

Yeah, yeah. Like, Mal, I know you and Joe have talked about this a lot in previous episodes, too, but it really just feels like Cherry and Kirsten are just serving the same purpose, the same function in terms of the story that Foggy did. And it's like at that point...

I kind of just wish Foggy was around because there already is so much built in and like... Yeah. They just didn't give them enough of a chance to even try to fill in that role at all because there's not a single scene that I can think of where... Like maybe for Cherry, it's like when he was picking up their witness in like episode three. Yeah.

where you have him, like, giving him the drugs and then bringing him that whole, like, trick they did to get him to the courthouse. That's, like, one of the few scenes you have him where he's not, like, with... And I guess there's been, like, small scenes with, like, just him and Kirsten talking, but...

In terms of seeing who these actually are as people, it's mostly like expositional where you're seeing like, all right, this guy was a detective. He's reminiscent like the way things used to be before vigilantes were around. But we don't really know who they are, just that he has some sort of relationship with Matt. And it doesn't really make you feel anything on an emotional level where I'm like, I need to see more Cherry. Even when it's a Cherry-Kirsten scene, they're just talking about Matt. It's like a Bechdel test kind of thing.

Did I ever actually have a conversation with anyone else that is not regarding Matt's well-being? I think the thing that...

Like the other thing that's really been on my mind is like, okay, if we think about the stakes, the emotional stakes, the story mechanic mistakes, any of it. It's like if Kirsten got so fed up with Matt that she was like, I can't work with you anymore. I can't be in partnership in a law practice with you. If Cherry was like, I'm just imploring you. You don't need more pain. You don't need the mask and you won't listen. So I can't be your PI. I can't be in your life. I would be like, okay.

Like, I wouldn't feel anything about them leaving Matt. But the idea of Foggy or Karen ever reaching the point where Matt's absence or withholding or outright lies or the decisions that he made that had an impact on them threatened those core relationships and the idea of those relationships being in jeopardy, like, felt during the Netflix run unbearable.

more consequential than all of Hell's Kitchen being in danger. Like, that was the magic trick of the show. And so I think that this is just, like, continues to be a real source of longing inside of the new universe. And I'm curious to see, like, how that is addressed and recalibrated in season two. And I think that an area in this episode where we did actually learn something new about a character that feels really meaningful is, of course, with Bebe. Yeah.

And she knows, like we learned in the conversation between Bebe and Gallo that she does in fact know that Fisk was the leading suspect in her uncle's murder, in Ben Yerrick's murder. I'm glad we know that. It feels crucial that we know that about Bebe. I don't understand why we didn't know that.

seven episodes ago. 100%. I think that this would have been a very helpful orienting aspect of like this character coming into the story and into our lives in the first place. And frankly, would have made those scenes between Bebe and Daniel, my guy Daniel Blake, which I think is like pretty consistently comedic and amusing, have an extra level of

mutual ambition and withholding like beyond even just the kind of like career-driven aspects of that. But Blake, Daniel Blake, no one knows what a shot is apparently. They're just like shots, shots, and then it's just full champagne fluid. It's very confusing. But this time,

lovable dipshit has been promoted to deputy mayor for communications. Sheila is perplexed and dismayed. Can't say I blame her. And Daniel is on the ascent. Fisk is like, you are the future of this city. Why would we stand in the way? It's

Daniel's kind of this like charming buffoon. And so we're almost like inclined in a way that I think the show making us complicit in this has been really successful to miss for a moment how disturbed we should be by that. And then you, of course, realize that this is like a very harrowing thing to understand a little bit more about what had been guiding BB beyond like, I'm here to get scoops for my blog. Yeah.

I think it would have been great, but I am glad still that we know it now. How about you, Daniel? I know you wrote about this a little bit in your piece. You were glad to get the information, but similarly felt like it should have come sooner. Yeah.

I totally feel the same way where I feel like that was just needed a lot earlier in the season. I'm glad it's here because it's one of those things where you can definitely like kind of intuit that like she's playing Daniel Blake from the whole like especially like after the whole club scene where the next morning it's like oh shit I leaked this yeah I'm in trouble.

And you can just kind of piece that together yourself, but you're making the audience do too much of the work there. And especially because you see a lot of like BB in a sense like through the BB reports, but she's not actually on camera. So it's like you're not actually getting enough of her as a character. And I think part of it for me at least too is like I loved Ben Urich as a character in the original Daredevil series. So if you're invoking his name, it's like.

You got to do him some justice. So the fact that we're finally getting that piece here, I'm glad it finally happened. But I just wish it had been a little bit sooner. That's a great point. Ben, what about you? You have thoughts on Ben York, on BB? Avenging uncles going on in this episode. Hopefully it goes better for BB than for Angela. But yeah, I mean, I guess...

It makes sense to save some sort of reveal, potentially. I mean, there was already a twist in this episode, and there's a semi-twist with Bebe, but I agree that probably that dynamic might have worked a bit better if we had understood her motivations. But then again, if we were fooled by them, and I don't know whether viewers were for the most part, but if they were, then you're kind of in the same boat as the people that she's playing for information here. So I don't hate it. That's a really good point, is like...

much like, you know, there's, we talked about this back when it was happening in real time at the beginning of the season, there's this aspect of like, okay, wait, why are Fisk and Vanessa revealing their innermost secrets to Matt Murdock's girlfriend? Which I will just say, I still have a question about, even though we understand that it was all about, you know, gaining this, uh, uh, making Matt feel vulnerable the way that they had penetrated his, his life. Um,

I'm sorry to say penetration while talking about Heather and Matt. We still haven't gotten nearly enough sex from those two, though. You know, the shower scene. Shower scene. Shower scene, yeah. But it cut off too soon. I'm sorry. It cut off too soon. Yeah, I know. But why? You guys remember the boxing ring? The boxing ring with Electra and Matt? I mean, this was a show where once we watched...

Electra feed Matt Murdock chunks of cheese on the tip of a knife. So I just, I have a standard in my mind and it's that. But, you know, the idea that like we're wondering...

Is it possible that she has duped everybody so fully and it's actually not really even occurring to Wilson Fisk that she might know this? Or is he aware that she might know it? And thus, he considers it more important to have her visibly in his orbit, in there, at the confirmed desk.

The wood has been marked and confirmed by Vanessa's keen artistic eye to say like, okay, you want to get close to me because you're after me? Well, I'm going to keep an eye on you. That part of the like dance, I think you're right, Ben, is really interesting. Speaking of dancing, no, we're not ready to talk about the ball yet. We're talking about swordsmen. We saw those moves on the...

playground. I'll basically take Jack, a little dose of Jack, whenever I can get it. I think the performance has been just so funny and wonderful. Do you guys anticipate this leveraging of Jack's swordsman identity in particular for Red Hook funds to have an actual bearing on the events of the finale? Or is this playing to you as more like

Using another character we know to show us the way that Fisk is going to use beyond the task force and the, I mean, God, the reporter and the hand in the friar scene. Let me just say this about the reporter.

turn your flash off and silence the shutter sound on your phone. You took two pictures, dude. There were two flashes. It was like, what are you doing? You're trying to be a secret op and not get caught. You can't have a flash on the shutter sound off. But yeah, is it just one more way to enforce the way that Fisk is using his anti-vigilante pursuits to control every aspect of city life, funds for Red Hook, etc.? Or do you think that Jack is going to actually have a bearing on the finale in some way?

I'd like to think that this isn't just another example of just a reference to another Marvel entity for no particular reason, just a character we recognize. I don't mind because, again, Tony Dalton. But it did seem like it was just sort of trying to convey how Fisk has come up in the world. I don't know that it was necessary because there was the other scene with the socialite character.

who basically like talked down to him earlier in the season and then now is cowed by him and shows up out of fear. So it does illustrate how he has kind of conquered this world that he was not naturally a part of and he now has the political capital to get actual capital from all the rich people who were kind of opposing him before. But it's

It seems like there might be another reason to have. I would hope that there will be, you know, with all the vigilante stuff that's going on here, one would hope that we will get to see some swordsmen other than the brief footage that we've gotten thus far. I hope. Yeah. This is where I will plead the fifth. Now we talked about this a little bit already. I saw it way back when Disney gave us like a week or so to watch the— Shh. Zip it. Don't.

We don't want any tipping. Say nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Don't tell us. Okay. Let's talk about the just really great ball dance floor sequence and how we got there, how we got there, how Matt got there, how our guide Dex got there, all of it.

I thought that the O'Melveny's dot connecting that Matt did at Josie's. First of all, great to see Josie's. We miss Josie's. We miss Hell's Kitchen. I always love to see the kitchen, as we Hell's Kitchen residents call it. Good, the kitchen. Yeah, I mean, Ben, you know. We've both lived there. I always think of when we were across the street neighbors before we knew each other, when we both lived in Hell's Kitchen. One of the time that was. Yeah.

um i would say maybe we were drinking at josie's on the same nights but neither of us ever went out drinking so it probably didn't happen um i you know because of what that bottle represented the way that matt and foggy would share that celebratory glass when they won a case and what it meant to be able to save up for this thing that like reflected more than even what it was um

for that to play a role in Matt being able to piece together like he was celebrating early he was gonna win someone wanted to silence him just like any of the moments in the season where Foggy has been like active

actively on Matt's mind, like holding the card in his hands. I've appreciated and found nice. I have to be honest that like just hearing Matt say dumb Benny again was like kind of silly and like, okay, sure, we've got like an hour left, but yeah. But I really liked that part of it. And then

you know, Dex, like Matt going because he's trying to piece it together and he still thinks it's Fisk before he realizes it's Vanessa to wind up in that room with Desk. I mean, that was like a harrowing scene. The way that Dex is not only like working him and obviously like, you know, Matt's

rage and violent impulses which of course is how he would describe dex right this like violent force of nature who can't control his own bad impulses and then matt is the one slamming dex's head into the table so that he's able to then loosen his own tooth to and frankly just astonishing velocities hurl into the eye of the guard great great stuff wild stuff um

I thought like that moment when Dex was like, you know, in another life, you wouldn't been, you would have been defending me, right? Like, isn't that what good men do? Defend their worst enemies, which on the one hand, just,

help set up Matt jumping in front of Fisk to take a bullet for his worst enemy. But also like when Matt is forced to look into one of those dark mirrors and assess something about himself, it is always when the show is at its best. So I really love that deck scene and just all of those different elements that got all of the key figures to the dance at the end. What did it do to both of you to see Benjamin Poindexter back in the fray shooting teeth into people's eyeballs? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, for me, it's so tough because I keep on trying to just evaluate this show on its own. You can't. It's impossible, exactly. It's just so hard because so much of what I love about this episode is how it's finally tied back to the first episode, which is thereby just tying it back to the original series. And, like, Dex is such a great villain in that third season of Daredevil. Like, I went back and rewatched a little bit more of it in preparation for it, and I

There's just so much that you get with Dex, whether it's like the way that they go back in his life through therapy, just all the scenes that are with him and Julie. And you just get to understand who this character is so much in a way that you didn't with Muse, especially Dex.

And seeing him back here, you still have all of that character development. It's like a cheat code. You have all of that built in already because of the original Daredevil series. And because of that, seeing them back together in that room and them talking again, it just works so well for me. And it's tough, you know? It's because this is a different series. So it's like...

It was missing—the middle episodes missed a lot of that where they're really building. There are some things I liked about the whole Muse storyline, but ultimately for him to really be introduced and killed in the same episode was like—it totally fell flat for me. I think to your point, Daniel—Ben, I want to hear your thoughts on Bullseye. But to that point, Daniel, I think one of the things that really made that—

visiting decks in prison scene so successful was like, yeah, you can't... Not only can we not ignore that the first three seasons of the Netflix series existed, but they're inviting us to think about it because it ultimately was rolled out as a continuation of that show. But the thing is... And so, of course, you can't watch what happened on the roof in the first episode. Right.

and appreciate it fully without the history of those characters from the first three seasons. You can't. So I'm not implying you can. But what is true is that when you're watching this episode, something from this season of TV is very top of mind also, which is Matt finally... Dex is the person to remind Matt not only of the great loss of losing Foggy, but of Matt losing himself. Matt pushed... He did the thing he said he would never do. Yeah, yeah. He pushed him off the roof. And just because he ended up, because of his augmentations...

surviving it doesn't mean that Matt didn't intend to kill him. And so Matt has to stare that truth in the face. And that was something that happened in this season. And so it was one of the more successful new story melded with our history and old story that we've gotten so far. So I think that was part of why it worked really well too. Ben, you know, listen, this is a baseball origin story ultimately. Yeah.

It is. And you're a baseball expert. So where are you with Dex at this point, eight episodes into Born Again? Were you happy to see him? Yes. I mean, I guess it reflects the difference in creative teams and just the degree of the connective tissue to the preceding series, as opposed to wanting this to stand on its own. Yeah.

I think even though I am generally in the camp of, hey, let's do something new, not the same thing that we've seen before. I think if, as Daniel said, you sort of fail to establish the new character, the new villain as, you know, tall order to try to make up for several existing seasons in one season, but even by those standards, it doesn't.

felt almost like, you know, the muse. It was kind of like our Black Mirror complaints about some episodes where it was like, that's it? We just, that's the reveal and it's over. And so it just wasn't really developed enough to be satisfying. So I like that here at the end of the season and potentially in future seasons, they've just kind of said, okay, people like these characters and they like the history of these characters. And so we're just going to focus on the people that you like and actually want to see on the screen here.

That said, I hope that they can establish new characters and new storylines in future seasons that aren't just solely callbacks, but...

At this point, I think when you're trying to reestablish this world and this cast, you know, give the people what they want. But I think he's got to get some kind of like silent rifle that he's like maybe so that you can cock it without alerting that from blocks away. Like it's got to be some sort of solution. I mean, he heard it over all the clinking of the glass. All the ice in the whiskey tumblers. He's still he's still. Yeah. I mean, my goodness. His powers of perception this season are just I think especially when he felt it.

Heather's face on the drawing by you. Low point. I still can't believe that. Low point in the season. He's really leveled up. I'm not over that. From a sensory perspective. Yeah, that was... If we had the pendants from Bette Noir and could make a reality where something changed, I would change that happened in the season of Daredevil Born Again. Um...

Let's talk about what Matt learns, which is that Vanessa did it. This was a very popular theory. A lot of people thought this was what we would learn, that Vanessa was the one who ordered Bullseye to attack, to kill Foggy. This is new to Matt, and it certainly seems like Fist does not know. So Matt takes the bullet, but there's an information hail of bullets coming here, too.

I don't want to ask to, I don't want to frame this as like predict because of what you just reminded us of, Daniel, that you've long ago and it's not necessarily all fresh, but you have seen the finale. So we're not going to frame it as like, where's this heading, but more what does it mean, right? What does it mean for these characters given the pledge that Fisk and Matt made

As we all love to talk about, while Vanessa was just sort of like in the room, kind of like not getting out of harm's way in the season three finale. This is like a known thing. They all know that this was the bargain that they made, right? There was a violation of this, and then that information was not shared with Fisk. So my feeling on their relationship and where they are now is not that Fisk would be like,

okay, I could forgive you for Adam, but not for this. It's that their devotion to each other will always be supreme. Like it will always find a way through whatever is, whatever obstacle emerges in front of it and that they will, at the end of the day, despite their maybe disappointment in each other and resentment of something that the other person did, be able to like justify their bad behavior to themselves and their bad behavior to each other because they care about each other that much. Maybe that's just what I want to believe, but that sort of is the story so far, right?

So I'm not necessarily, perhaps foolishly, but I'm not necessarily worried that Fisk is going to be like, we're done now because you violated my pledge to Matt Murdock. That just doesn't seem likely to me. I'm trying not to look at Daniel's eyes and what he might be like. I'm trying to just give a poker face right here. But I do think it's notable just given its proximity to the like we've finally worked through it all.

We put it all out there. We said the things that we needed to say. And now here we are turning the page on the next chapter of our life. And then to be kind of sucked right back in and subsumed by not just the specific thing, but more the idea that there's something always waiting around the corner for them to be like surprised by inside of their relationship feels really interesting to me. Um,

and Matt like taking the bullet, I would, I would be, I'm zooming in Freeman. It's like, that feels more like shoulder to me than vital organ. Like, I just feel like we're still going to see Matt Murdock in the daredevil suit in the finale and that we kind of have to. And I guess the idea of him being slightly wounded is, um, it's always interesting. You know, so much of season three was like Matt, uh, barely functioning, like insisting on going out and finding a way to fight anyway. So I kind of like when we see him in that state. Um,

But yeah, what stood out most to you from Matt learning this truth about Vanessa and the fact that Fisk doesn't know it yet? Yeah, it did seem like the score was even after each of them betrayed the other and then kind of made amends. So Vanessa...

betrayed Wilson with Adam's magic hands and then made up for that by executing him. And so Wilson betrayed her by leaving and then came back and reaffirmed his commitment to her. And so now they're finally just speaking to each other and cooperating and collaborating. And then this wrench gets thrown in. This is just a world with a lot of secrets and a lot of deception and a lot of

Lies, deception, a lot of betrayal that is happening here. So it kind of comes with the territory. Yeah, it did feel to me like, as you said, people had proposed that this might be the twist. Given the investigative skills required,

Matt has the fact that this possibility didn't occur to him seemingly before this reveal she seems like she should have been on the leading list of suspects given that she was essentially running things during this period given that she has a history of ordering hits yeah there's kind of that parallel with Nadim right yeah and given the pledge that

Wilson had made, you'd think that it might have occurred to Matt before this point that, oh, maybe I should be looking at Vanessa also. I like that, you know, she's wearing the red dress at the end now when we get the mirroring there of the colors and everything. So, yeah, I will...

You would think that there would have to be some sort of bullseye daredevil showdown in costume again, kind of bringing things full circle from the Brunier. Not looking at Daniel either, but probably also there's some sort of showdown with Matt and Vanessa. Or is it Matt and Wilson? Or is it both Fisk's tag team? Or did they turn on each other? There are just a lot of different ways that this could go. Yeah, I liked how they were kind of leveraging that.

information against each other when there's the partner swap that was so funny when Fisk and Heather were just sort of like swaying side dancing yeah no that was hilarious I also just really liked that moment too where Fisk is just kind of speaking like knowing that Murdoch is gonna hear it that was great he's like talking to him yeah yeah and like Murdoch is like listening and Heather's like what's going on like

There are a lot of really cool storytelling things I feel like they did. Just in general with sound, I like a lot of what they do. Like even with Matt hearing Vanessa's heartbeat starting to rise, like starting to get faster as she's trying to tell him about what she's done. Yes. So a lot of that worked well for me too. Yeah.

Again, going back to what I was saying earlier with Vanessa, I still wish I had just seen a little bit more of her throughout the season. So it's like you get a little bit more – I don't know. They might have tipped their hand a little bit too much that way. But just to get a little bit more insight into where she is right now. Because I really liked that moment at the end of that episode where she – that test of loyalty where she turns on Luca. Yeah.

Finally getting Luca out of the picture, which just needed to happen. Thank you for your service, Vanessa. Thanks, Buck Gashman. Yeah, but I think she's been great in her small moments. So it was fun for me to see that come back around.

Yeah, and I feel like, I mean, we'll find out in mere days, but, you know, how much of this ends up being about dumb Benny and the actual, like, five families crime lord aspect of what's going on in running New York and how much of it was almost like, are we going to find out that Vanessa was like, yeah, no, of course I knew that was your pledge and that was the point. You left me and so I wanted to blow up this thing that was like,

to you because you weren't here. You hurt me, so I was going to hurt you and almost will feel like a continuation of this closure from this wound. But I like, you know, one of the things that I really enjoy about Vanessa as a character is that she stands her ground, whether it's with Fisk or whether it's with Matt in this moment, like when he's like, does he know? Does he know you had Foggy killed? And she's just like, she's not like, uh, uh, uh,

I'm going to excuse me. I have to go powder my nose. She's like, does Heather know you're Daredevil? She's just always ready to fight back. Grabs his like bow tie like that. The little flick off of that was so funny to me. Yeah. So that was really good. So curious to see what happens in the finale. We're not going to ask Daniel. I'm tempted to ask Daniel if Matt finally goes to church. That's really honestly. I will not say anything.

All I really want for the finale is like for some church stuff. I need Matt to have a really meaningful Catholic moment in the finale as we were like bullseyes back. We got some Frank Castle. We're talking about, oh, Melvinese, give me some church, please, God. But Daniel can't answer this. But Ben, is there anything that you are particularly invested in heading in the finale that you want to cite? Well, aside from everything we've talked about with the Wilson and Vanessa relationship and Matt and their

their whole triangle, whatever quadrangle it is with Heather. I guess also whether when Heather finds out, presumably, which probably should have happened by this point. But when the reveal occurs, does that get her out of the picture, which I wouldn't be sorry to see her go? Or does that lead to some reframing of this relationship in her mind? If that is the last straw for her, does that open up

the fridge for Karen to come out at some point potentially, or, you know, I'd also like to see some punishing happen in the finale, as you mentioned, just a punisher punishing the imitators, the posers who were using his, his logo without, without attribution, without infringing on his, his trademark. So I'd like to see him come back and sort of set up a bigger role for him or, you know,

Other roles for him. I hope they're not going to save all of it for the Punisher special. Let's give us a little bridge in the finale, please. Yes. Okay, guys. Great to talk to you about the penultimate Daredevil Born Again. Great to talk to you about an entire season of Black Mirror. We crammed in a lot. It was a blast. Thank you both not only for joining for today's podcast, but again, Ben, thank you for...

Yes. Braving the great outdoors. Everyone appreciates my sacrifice. Now that I know where the studio is, I could come back anytime. Will you? That would be great. We'd love it. Thank you as well to Carlos Cheraboga, who is producing this episode, The Best Always. Thank you too.

Arjunaram Gopal for his production supervision now and always. Thank you to Jomi Adeneron for his work on the social for this episode. And thank you to a couple members of the team who are helping us out today with our video production, with the studios. Kate Ahern, legend icon, is out there with you guys in New York. And then out here in LA, Jonathan Frias and Oscar De La Luz have been helping us with today's episode. So a full team effort to align

allow us to podcast today. This was sub hosts, producers, everyone rallied so that we could pod today. So thank you to the entire squad. We appreciate it. And guys, I hope that you enjoy the Daredevil finale next week. Obviously, hope everybody enjoys the Last of Us season two premiere. Can't wait for button mash. Daniel, can't wait to read all your pieces. It's going to be a fun content. McGeddon stretch ahead. See you guys then.