'Deadpool & Wolverine,' Downey as Doctor Doom, and the State of the MCU | House of R
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You were an X-Man. Fuck that, you were the X-Man. He was a hero in my world. Fine people, but my entire world is right here in this picture. Hello and welcome to House of R. We are once again on opposite sides of the state, but together over a recording. I'm Joanna Robinson.

That's Mallory Rubin. And we're here to do a big picture look at, but not big picture, picture TM with Sean Fenton and Amanda Dobbins, a large lens look at Deadpool Wolverine several weeks later.

And the state of Marvel after San Diego Comic-Con D23. We're basically doing a big Marvel catch-up. We've not been able to engage. We were a little busy with Dragons. So here we are with a belated sort of Marvel catch-up. Deadpool and Wolverine is a billion-dollar movie. We thought maybe we should talk about it. Mallory, how are you feeling? How are you doing? We made an educated wish that this plan would work out.

And look at all the little news hooks we got the last couple days and weeks. Wonderful stuff. I am feeling okay. You know, it's great to be with you. I miss you, but I'm also glad that you're in a place that brings you joy. And it's just nice to start my week seeing your face, seeing Steve's face, being back together even from afar. You know, what is distance really? It's all the void. So I'll find you no matter where you are.

That's how I am. The void from Loki season one, episode five. Yeah. I wore a Loki shirt today. I was like, what shirt should I wear? I guess I do. Then I remembered like after I sat down that I actually have a TVA shirt, but who could be bothered to stand up and change? Not me.

Sounds like too much effort. Okay, speaking of effort, we got a lot going on, of course, around the Ringerverse. It is a bye week for the Midnight Boys. Pew, pew! Pew, pew! Give them a little rest and relaxation after this crazy summer of content. Mallory and I...

not resting. We are doing this and also later this week we're doing a House of the Dragon book look ahead plus awards plus mailbag sort of thing. Season wrap. Season wrap. Not ready to leave Westeros just yet. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. If you have thoughts and feelings about episode 9 that aired last night or anything else that you want to share with us. Just kidding. We have a lot of emails so don't stress yourself about sending emails in.

the mailbag. We have a lot of emails from you guys already, but if you're like, I have a take that no one's ever heard of, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. We'll also be doing our fall hype meter. We'll be dropping next week. We're getting really excited for... Next week is a one-week pod for us because that's our getaway and relax week. And so we're

We're getting ahead on the old hype meter and then you won't be hearing from us for a few days, but then we'll be back. Rings of power. Which is upon us, my goodness, our return to Middle Earth. So excited. Can't wait. Over, I mean, just because the Midnight Boys are taking a little breather, it doesn't mean over the river, it's all quiet on the Western Front. Button Mash is doing Borderlands, everyone's favorite movie.

Video game adaptation. No, I'm really excited. It's a great crew. Rob Mahoney, who's going to be guesting on that pod, was giving me some previews of some of his Borderlands takes. So I think you're going to want to tune in to button match for that. Also, the Mint Edition crew is going to be checking in on Alien Romulus. Mallory, we won't get to see it together. You've seen every Alien movie. Yeah. Are you going to be getting the bucket, the Alien bucket?

No, I don't think so. Too scary. Too scary. What about the Beetlejuice bucket? Have you seen the Beetlejuice popcorn bucket? I think I've when I brought home the dune popcorn bucket, which was to me an essential thing to have in my life, in my home. I did have to confront how I'm I think I'm approaching the like how much spare shelf space do we have for merch point of my life?

So if I get into a, no, I think it's not going to stop me to be clear, but I did have to confront like, is the popcorn bucket collecting a thing that I will embrace in full or will I be more selective? I think I might be more selective. Part of the sad thing about not being at the front wave of Deadpool and Wolverine movie going because we were riddled with COVID and I'm sure you'll still hear some of the COVID brain fog. Yeah.

It's rearing its head today, folks, as we work our way slowly back to full strength. You know, I didn't get that popcorn bucket, and that's a sad one because that one I wanted. I got to find that still. I feel like it's not too late for you, and we can find you a Deadpool and Wolverine bucket. But who knows? Because a lot of people went to go see this movie, and I'm sure plenty of them had some popcorn while they did so. Is this a popular film?

How can folks make sure they don't miss the Borderlands takes, the Alien Romulus takes, Fall Height Meter, everything that's coming from us and all of our pals. Here's what I'd recommend. I would recommend you follow the pods on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hit that button on House of R and Ring Reverse. While you're at it, pop over to the Ring Reverse YouTube channel and subscribe to that channel because you're going to get full video episodes of House

House of R and Midnight Boys on that channel. We are, you know, not in the studio together, but has that stopped us from being on video? No. Are we both like, we need to figure out some stuff about our remote setups? Yes. Will this be a journey that you share with us in real time? It will. I was going to say, this is going to be like Mallory and I both have plans to redo our offices. I mean, me is really actually like due in the first place because I never unpacked in here. So, um,

You can watch us like slowly create a more. You can watch the space regenerate. Behind us on, on our various video calls. And, and, and like, please share all of your supportive thoughts and opinions about our decor. Okay. Spoiler warning. Yeah. Wait, I didn't say follow the socials. Please. While you're at it. Right. Check out the ringer verse, Instagram, Twitter, Tik TOK, because while we were all together in person,

What a rich and vibrant time that was to create social content. And guess what? I'm going to keep creating. You think Jomie is going to stop making social goodies for all of you because we're in different parts of the state? No. No. And as Joe noted...

when talking about the House of the Dragon Season Wrap, the inbox is open, but keep the emails coming for everything. Start sending us your Rings of Power Season 2 emails. Send us your hype meter emails. What are you looking forward to most in the fall air quotes? Because no, this will not be the first hype meter where we follow the actual calendar when talking about a season. We're going to figure out when we want that season to be in a few days. Probably late Thursday night. Yeah.

Send your emails about what you're looking forward to most in August, September, October, November, et cetera. Keep them coming. Okay. Back to you. Back to you, Joanna. I would say Thursday mid-afternoon will be fine. Thanks, Mal. Okay, listen. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you've adopted my newscaster transitions. Back to you. Back in the studio. Spoiler warning today.

Deadpool and Wolverine. Guess what? It's been out for weeks. We're going to spoil it. We've seen it. You've probably seen it. We're going to talk about the whole thing, everything that happens. Every disgusting death...

Every, you know, winky fourth wall breaking joke, et cetera, et cetera, is on the table today. Also, in terms of like the large room, so you basically were splitting this episode in half. We're going to do half Deadpool and Wolverine. We're not doing a deep dive mostly because like Deadpool and Wolverine is not asking for a deep dive. There's not a lot of meat on those like adamantium bones, you know, it's just like. And because the film came out three weeks ago.

I was going to say that. And because the phone came out three weeks ago, it's not particularly fresh. So we're going to do like a, you know, a jaunty little, you know, half an episode trip through Deadpool and Wolverine. And then we are going to talk about MCU news out of Comic-Con and D23. And again, we're not going to, in terms of spoilers, we're not going to talk about

we're just going to be talking about like, you know, sort of what's out there. We haven't seen any of this. We're not, you know, spoiling any of it. We're just going to be talking about like news. Like we have not had chance on Mike, I think to talk about Robert Downey Jr. Coming back to the MCU. That's kind of a big thing that happened. We haven't, you haven't been graced with our opinions yet. So we're going to, we're going to hit you with that in this episode. Let's get to the quick facts about Deadpool and Wolverine.

This film was directed by Sean Levy and written by deep breath, Ryan Reynolds, Rhett Reese, Paul Wernick, Zeb Wells, and Sean Levy. Probably all of them breaking some rule or other of the WGA strike. If we're being honest, this is 120, a zippy 128 minutes. And it made over a billion. That's a billion with a B dollars in the last few weeks. It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money. Where do you think this is going to net out box office wise?

I don't know. What was your... So we both saw it this weekend. What was your theater like on a... You went Saturday morning, is that right? Saturday mid-morning. My theater was empty, but that was by design. I sort of looked at showtimes and seat grids looking for as few people as possible. I'm back into my...

was incredibly sick for a really long time and I'm trying to avoid contact with a ton of other people as best I can for us. This is just where I am now. How about you? What was your crowd like? I would say the five other people in the theater seemed to be having a great time though. Oh yeah. I had about like 10 other people in the theater I would say. We were all having a pretty good time. I am sad that we didn't get to see this in a packed theater with like a huge crowd that were sort of all in. I think that would have been really fun. But

But yeah, so given that, I mean, I also saw it on a weekend morning. So I don't know if that's any indication. But I have been to a couple weeks later certain phenomena films like Dune or something like that where every screening is still packed. So I don't know. I think we're going to start to see it Peter. No pun intended out. Can the whole pod be about Peter? I don't want to tip any of my takes. Everybody loves Peter. Oh, man.

Let's do the opening snapshot, which is somehow different from the quick facts. As we just mentioned, this film made over a billion dollars as of this recording. Quick facts about that. It is the first superhero movie to cross a billion since Sony and Marvel's Spider-Man No Way Home two and a half years ago. And the first Marvel Disney MCU movie to make a billion since Avengers Endgame in 2019. Sheesh. Wild.

That is wild. On the critical fan response front, since I've just decided to reengage my anti-Rotten Tomatoes stance, and I'm just going to bring you these data points. It got an A on CinemaScore, which is comparable to the audience scoring Rotten Tomatoes, and a 3.7 on Letterboxd, which I'm saying is sort of comparable to the critical score. So that'll tell you where the audience versus critical divide is. The critics are like,

This movie is okay-ish. I kind of liked it. And the audience seems to be like, fuck yeah. So that's sort of where we're standing on this particular film. Which brings us to our overall impressions of Deadpool and Wolverine. Mallory Rubin, give me your best shot. I had a great fucking time at the movies. A great time at the movies.

I really enjoy the Deadpool films. I enjoy the shtick. And I was pretty excited about this based on the

framing of the trailers and the marketing of like, we are taking the piss out of Marvel and we are spoofing a thing that you all love and that we take seriously and that we are still actively in the midst of though tweaking in real time. Obviously some of the particulars of like how the TVA was going to come into the story, what if any plot mechanic would be at play, et cetera. You know, that, that was revealed to us in full to the extent that it could be while watching the film. But I was,

I don't know that there was a stretch where I went more than a few minutes without really laughing. Like I had a great time. I had a good time with the pals I went to see it with.

I it did not necessarily work its adamantium claws into my heart and soul in the sticky fashion that the best MCU fare can and doesn't has. But I don't mind that. And I think actually that's sort of what we need right now is a dip. We talk a lot about the genre variants at the heart of the Infinity Saga success.

And variance can come in many forms and tonal variance is variance too. And I think this was like a sorely needed, just refreshing couple hours at the multiplex with my pals. Let me tell you what else I've been enjoying other than seeing the film, catching up on our colleagues takes, um,

I'm not sure that I have enjoyed a podcasting moment more in the year 2024. I mean this. Then listening to Chris and Andy on the watch, they also were on a considerable delay, much like the House of R for what the film came out. And obviously their takes are nuanced and everybody should go check them out. But Andy's opening snapshot, in essence being, and I realized...

I'd be okay with dying. It would be okay to die. Was my favorite podcasting moment of the year so far. I was in tears listening to Chris and Andy talk about this movie. If everybody hasn't checked it out yet, Big Pick and Midnight Boys did a crossover pod. Steve, who like us, was rocked.

riddled with COVID at the time. Had to miss it. So Steve, if you've got takes you're just desperate to rip off today, you know, keep that mic hot, bud. Jump in whenever you'd like. That's my overall feeling about the film and the experience of consuming it. I had a blast. Joanna,

What did you think of Deadpool and Wolverine? And when will you've already, you've moved beyond my suggestion to make the whole pod about Peter, but I would like to issue a followup suggestion. Can the entire podcast, if not a Peter central pursuit, can the entire podcast be about dog pool? Yes. Dog pool, dog pool stuff. Go. Is that all the prompt you want? Honestly? Yes. Okay.

we will definitely lick my cinnamon ring. Uh, clean. Go. I want, I definitely want to talk about Johnny. We will get to, uh, Peter pool. Uh,

What about the cinnamon ring? It's so funny. You and I had a text exchange where I was like, hey, I had a fun, fine time at the movies. You're like, me too, same. I think our fun, fine time at the movies were like slightly different. I'm not quite as high as you are on the film, though I'm delighted you had such a good time. I still would describe it as I had a fun, fine time at the movies. I have notes. I definitely have notes. But I had a good time.

My expectations were like pretty low based on like what a lot of our colleagues thought. I knew that like, but I had friends who had a great time too. And so I was like, okay, like let's try it. Let's try as much as possible to turn off my critical brain. I was really trying and just be like, okay, this is just all this is claiming to be.

Is pure synthetic butter popcorn cinema. Like, that's all it's trying to be. So let's try to meet it at its level and, like, turn off my criticism. And I had, like, a really good time with it. The Deadpool shtick is not my favorite. Right. Has never been my favorite. But I thought the Wolverine stuff was really, really good. I thought Deadpool was... ...as good as it could be. And I agree, like, this is a great time to take...

you know, cracks at Marvel's like the next sort of prompt on here is sort of like what this means for Marvel. And they needed this box office win. And even more than that, they needed to let everyone know that they had the self-awareness to,

to allow like every, all the shit that we're talking, they're like, yep. And we're going to put it in a movie. And so it's harder for us to be like, they don't know that the multiverse isn't working. They're like, we know the multiverse, you know, like stuff like that. So like, I thought all that stuff worked really well. I thought they weren't talking about the Logan, like the film Logan, like how they dealt with all of that. I thought that stuff was like, there's a lot of really smart moves in here. I think the thing that,

Doesn't work for me personally with Deadpool is like there's some clever. It's not I don't think it's dumb.

I think they're clever moves. I think they just always want you to also pat them on the back every single time they make a clever move. And I'm like, you could just let the clever move stand. And there's like, and that would work for me. Wolverine stuff worked really well for me. I thought the villains were great. I had such a good time with the villains in this movie. And yeah, it was just, it was, it was quite fun. I think I wish, I wish the action had been better. The action was creative and,

uh, often, but like very CG dependent. And, uh, especially when we get the, like the Fox team of like Electra and Gammon and X-23 and blade fighting, that was just like a lot of like nonsense cam to sort of, you know, like for sure, you know? And so I was just sort of like,

there's a lot of really good ideas on the action front in this movie. And I would have loved to have seen it sort of executed at a high level, the way that we see, like sometimes with like, we're going to talk about daredevil a little late, you know, like sometimes in the, in the MCU, you see like really good action. And I think that could have been like really, really good, clever action in this movie. If, um, you know, I was more enthused about the smaller set pieces. Like I, I think my two favorite fight sequences of the film were, uh,

Logan and Wade fighting for the first time in the void and getting to like see Wolverine dig the claws into the ground before launching. Like that was a genuine thrill. Wolverine on all fours is tremendous. And then inside a Honda Odyssey. And then inside the Honda Odyssey, which was, I thought, just,

I agree that the larger team up sequences were not necessarily the parts of the movie that will stick with us. What did you think of the bye-bye-bye? What did you think of Dance Pool and using Logan's skeleton for, what did you think of that set piece to open the film? My goodness. I mean, we can, let's save that for, we're going to talk about how they handled Logan in a second. Just one last thing before we get into sort of the larger conversation is,

Quick rankings check in. You're a big fan of Deadpool in general. How would you rank the three Deadpool films? I think right now I would go one is my favorite, then three, and then two. But I can't.

I could see this one shooting to the top of the ranking on, on a rewatch and with some time, because I was so fond of the Deadpool Wolverine pairing and of the, uh, too limited, but precious time that we got with Hugh Jackman in this movie with Wolverine in this movie. Um,

That I like, I could see this rising to the top, ultimately. I think I'm the same ranking, one, three, two. And two, I just like really have had no interest in revisiting. One, I've watched a few times. Two, I think I've rewatched like

a couple times but it's just i really didn't like have a great time with that movie but um yeah i i could we'll see on rewatch like how i feel about three in the future but sort of where i am right now and then where does this rank for you amongst amongst the post-endgame movies like where is that a lot of them i know there's a lot but like well i mean i think i'll give you my top three i guess yeah yeah yeah yeah um as always

standard House of R caveat, fine print before ranking. I reserve the right to change my mind at any point. I will not be bound by the ranking that I issue. Don't hold my history against me. I... My top two is unchanged. My top two is still No Way Home and Guardians Volume 3. Those were just meaningful, memorable movie-going experiences. But I think I would put this third after those two. I was looking, I'm like, what?

phases four and five, which other films have to claw past Deadpool and Wolverine to hold onto that third spot. I didn't there. I didn't necessarily feel like subsumed by guilt moving anything else out of the top three, but I think that's where I am right now. How about you? What would your top three, top five be? Where are you slotting this broadly? Yeah. I mean, I,

I know that I enjoyed Black Widow most people did. And I also really enjoyed Far From Home. But I think this is at least number five or near the top five somewhere. It's definitely up there for sure. And again, as we said, definitely what was needed right now for sure. Marvel must be feeling... I know they're feeling...

because they've not been in a good place. And we'll talk about that a little bit later. And, you know, fucking, I know that Sean Levy's feeling great because he's,

giving a million triumphant interviews everywhere he goes. But like Sean Levy and Ryan Reynolds, both, I believe, as has always been the narrative with Deadpool, had to sort of fight to make this happen, you know? And so the fact that they got their way and kudos to like Feige and the rest of them for, you know, seeding, seeding ground there, but,

And it's a smashola. Their instincts are always right with this particular property. So there you go. And it's funny because, you know, Ryan, I think it was on The Tonight Show, Ryan Reynolds was like, you know, Jimmy Fallon says something like, are we going to get like Deadpool 4 or whatever? And he's like, oh God, no. Right? Yeah.

And, and incredible. Is that, was that something he just said, like opening week or something like that as a joke or what have you, or is the only interested in playing Deadpool as like a part of future movies? Like I can't imagine a world in which Deadpool doesn't show up in like Avengers, you know, a team up movies and stuff like that. But, um,

But I can also not imagine a world in which Bob Iger doesn't, Robert Iger doesn't like, you know, shake down the money tree to try to get a Deadpool 4 to happen. Totally. Much to Happy Hogan's chagrin, there is absolutely no future in any timeline, sacred or otherwise, time-ripped or otherwise, in which Deadpool is not going to be a part of the team-ups. There's just no way. And I...

I can't actually wrap my mind around a future scenario where there's not a standalone Deadpool film in phase whatever, but I'm actually relieved that they're maybe taking a beat to think about what that should look like and wait for the moment where it will have the most impact rather than just saying we've got to get this on the slate in two years because. I think part of why this felt so right is because it's like, it's been a minute.

It's been a minute. It had been quite a while. Pre-COVID was the last. Not just pre-our recent ballot go ahead. And yeah,

And, you know, this felt like you can't always anticipate or choose these spots, but there's something about the nature of Deadpool, the character, the murk, the mouth, the lampooning, whatever is like the text of the moment, the fourth wall breaking, all of it, where this just felt like such an effective balm for this like collective moment of Marvel angst, even though all of the

many of the, well, we'll talk about this. Do all of the questions remain? Have any of them been answered? Or like, do we look at any of them in a slightly different way after watching this film or not? Is this like a,

you know, you've captured something amazing in the two hours and eight minutes of this film. And then we still have to figure out how to do it elsewhere. I think that'll be one of the interesting things when we move from discussing the movie into this larger question and looking at the slate to come. But like, I don't know, this just felt like you have a hard year, right? Your, your work sucks. You're busy. You're tired. You're,

you can't wait to get to the beach. And then you do. You finally sit down and you feel the sand on your toes and you hear the ocean breeze and then you take a sip of your favorite cocktail and you know you have to go back to work. Only in a few days. But for that moment in time, things feel good. That's what seeing this movie was like. And that is not me as a person who's finally going

projecting anything else works great i was like mallory's already just so tired oh with her family on a on a beachy locale somewhere okay you guys are my family that was we're gonna call this next section the meta mcu fix fest um wow that wow that

We're going to just talk about this a little bit and then we're going to go like character by character. And again, this is like a shallow little zippy tour through Deadpool and Wolverine. But I want to start with how they dealt with the shadow. It's the baby blade, right? Yes. Baby blade.

Start with how they dealt with the shadow of the film Logan over this movie. Because I'm one of those people, when they announced this movie, that I was like, no, dude! I was like, Wolverine got the perfect send-off. It was so good. Hugh Jackman ate a celebratory bowl of pasta on a late-night show. He was so excited to be done with the abs. And then, I don't know, I guess he did Greatest Showman and...

And it just wasn't scratching the itch for him or they, you know, backed up too large of a money truck or whatever it is. He's like, I got to go back. And so I was like, I think that's I mean, I knew this movie was going to be popular. I knew it was going to make a bajillion dollars. That was just always going to be the case. I didn't know it was going to be.

as popular as it is. And certainly Hugh Jackman has to be feeling like he definitely made the right decision. I was like, on his behalf, I was like, let this man rest. But he's like, I'm uninterested in that. Okay, that's your choice. Okay, for those of us who love the film Logan and love that beautiful poignant goodbye, because we're going to talk about Robert Downey Jr. coming back to the MCU a little later on and how things need to end sometimes. But the way they dealt with it in the movie...

was so good. Because I was just like, I was just really appreciative of... They grudgingly got me when he was decimating the TVA with the literal skeleton of Logan, dug out of the grave from the end of the film Logan. That was like brilliant...

funny and great and I'm like they get it it's like they're really dealing with it what really icing on the cake for me though was when they showed the clip from Logan inside the TVA and everyone inside the TVA just stopped with gooey eyeballs and looked at it and

And even Paradox was just sort of like transported by the end of Logan. I thought that was just like a really, really clever way. And I mean, like the way the fourth wall break of like the way in which Logan

Wade, I, and Deadpool will occasionally, like, blur Logan with Hugh Jackman, you know, like, as if they're the same person. All of that just, like, really worked well for me. So, yeah. What did you want to say? Oh, and I want to – your earlier question about, like, the bye-bye-bye sequence. I saw this, like, really sweet TikTok I should have sent you of the guy who was the dance double for – Joe. Guess where I saw it. Oh, on Instagram Reels? On Instagram Reels.

Yeah, I actually watched it multiple times. I was, like, completely riveted. It was so good. So, like, I hate to shout out the illusion for folks, but that was not Ryan Reynolds in the suit dancing to Bye Bye Bye. But this, like, young, like, dancer guy, like, got a message from his agent, like, you have to put the Bye Bye, you have to learn the Bye Bye Bye dance and put it on tape for this mystery project. You have to do it right now. So it's, like, a little time lapse of him, like, learning and fucking up the dance and learning it. In his caption, he's like...

am I wearing red and black because I got a hint about what this might be? Maybe, but he's just like, it's such a charming. So I was thinking a lot about him while I was watching the dance. I thought it was really charming. How about you? That's like, that's another thing just broadly about the experience of seeing this movie on delay, which is not our cost plan for how we consume Marvel movies where, you know, we're obviously usually potting about them immediately. Um,

I am always so anxious about spoilers. Like, I just want to go in and consume something in the pure, unvarnished way that it was intended to be presented to me first, which is obviously a challenge in life on the internet. But I think because we were so sick when this movie dropped and it was just really clear we would not be seeing it, like, anytime soon. Yeah. I just...

kind of like embraced a chill peaceful attitude toward like the inevitability of seeing spoilers I did have this kind of funny experience where like there were I would just be on Twitter and like scrolling through and I would see something and I actually wouldn't know if it was like really from the movie or a bit you're like is Blade actually in this movie

Or did they Photoshop Wesley in? Yeah, I'm like, I can't tell if these are like memes and jokes or really clips from the movie. So that was kind of a surreal and funny thing. But in terms of Logan, I'm in very much the same place with it that you are. Like that's one of my three favorite superhero movies ever. I think it's just a masterpiece. And so I was concerned in terms of the very –

particular impact and legacy of that film and our time with that character, but also more broadly, like what this impulse, which again, as you noted, we'll talk about more with Dr. Doom later today, like what this impulse is

to always go back to the past represents for where we are creatively in this massive pursuit. And I was like, on the one hand as a fan of the X-Men and as a fan of Wolverine and a fan of Hugh Jackman's rendering of Wolverine, of course, like excited, but also a little bit nervous. And one of the things

And I had a great time at the movies, but one of the like things that was pulling on me a little bit watching it, this is not, this may be less so with Wolverine just because like our time with Hugh Jackman as Wolverine is just this precious thing. And it actually did feel like genuinely a gift to get to like spend a couple more hours with him. Ultimately, all of my concerns were just pushed to the side and I was like, bliss, bliss. Um,

This thing was pulling on me throughout, given how many characters returned, where I was like, I feel a little bad for all of the people who are about to die.

Oh, start. Bring the next iteration of these characters to life. Like there was a little bit of that for me and it kind of varied character to character, franchise to franchise. But that was like on my mind a little bit. Like if you're never closing the door and saying goodbye, there's something nice about knowing that you can have these little moments where you return to a thing that you loved. But also like if then you're a part of this new wave of like a reboot or a refresh, you feel that maybe extra pressure of like knowing somebody just got more time with character X.

performer why and they're like I love to this thing so especially given that this ended with Logan sitting at the table it's like whoever plays Wolverine next they're not they can't escape the fact that Hugh Jackman could just be Wolverine I mean the play until you're 90 thing is like the definitely will be Wolverine recurring joke in the yeah in the movie Abso-fucking-lutely he's coming back yeah no um

You know, when I felt that way was I am on record as like loving X-Men First Class. And then they did Days of Future Past. And I was like, you just had this really cool refresh restart with these characters that I really liked. And then you had to like people love Days of Future Past.

and I'm not here to yuck their yum, but that was very much a like, you brought in the legacy actors to your new cast who just got here? Give them a chance to be their own thing. So yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, yeah. I think just on the grave and...

taking up the literal skeleton of our memories of a thing that we loved. It's part of why the movie, I think, worked for me so well, ultimately, is like, you can't half-ass this kind of a thing. You have to go all in. Like, you have to go all in. And there's a recognition there, I think, when...

of inside of this movie, but more broadly, like what can lead to an effective spoof, right? What is at the heart often of good, not always, but often of like good satire. Like you have to understand not only what hasn't been working about something, but why people love it. Like you do actually have to be able to carry both of those in balance. And so I thought that was very present with the skeleton and yeah, great stuff from dance pool.

Not a variant. Just a variant in our minds as people with awareness of Twitter and TikTok. Or Instagram Reels. You know, I felt similarly about, oh, we'll talk about that next. But I think that there are moments, so you mentioned the fight in the void when Wolverine gets the claws out on all fours or whatever. I loved that.

The part that sends it over the edge where I'm like, I don't need that part is when Deadpool's like, all right, nerds, get out your special sock. Like that whole thing where they're like so proud of the fact that they're about to give us that. I'm like, you're about to give us something like really fun and great that I'm excited for. You don't need now to tell me that you're giving me something really great that I should be excited for because I just am. But like, but as I was watching it, I was thinking this does take like.

some cojones like some audacity because like moments like that where they're like we're about to serve you something great something i don't love no matter what but what if that thing hadn't been great after all that would have been you know it just takes a lot to put yourself out there and be like we're doing we're really doing it and then what if they hadn't done it they did do it but what if they had it you know what i mean so i'm just like i admire that level of like commitment to your your point commitment to the bit um

Happy Hogan and the 2018 Avengers. Okay, so we attempt to give Wolverine and Deadpool parallel poignant storylines that like lead up to the like a virgin hand clasping moment of like, we're going to be big damn heroes even though our backstory says we're not allowed to be. Um,

And I would say for me, it worked 50% of the time. But I really... So part of that is this establishment of this scene where...

Wade goes to try to join the Avengers. This is a scene that was apparently written for Robert Downey Jr. if he wanted to do it. He did not. He was not quite ready then, I suppose, to come back to the MCU or perhaps just not interested in playing Tony Stark in that moment. But it was so it was adapted for Favreau. They were ready to adapt it for Favreau as Happy Hogan. And it's meta-commentary, of course, of the kind of on-screen hero that Deadpool will never be. But also, 2018 is such a smart... This is like...

peak Avengers 2018. We are right on the cusp of Endgame. This is them at their like

most potent era. And I thought that was just like a really smart, along with all the other meta commentary, this was such a smart thing to revisit the Avengers at their height of their like, we don't need you, Deadpool. We don't need someone like you sullying our, you know, our establishment, our team, Deadpool. What did you think of this scene? You didn't like it? Not my favorite part of the movie just because like...

This was one of the rare spots in the movie where the fact that the timey-wimey stuff didn't make sense was actually distracting to me. And also the character motivation, which I wouldn't say this is a movie that's really rooted in emotional truth and character motivation. But this is presented to us as Wade is suddenly not...

enough of a giver for Vanessa and has to go try to like do this thing to prove his worth to her. I mean, himself as a hero. And I'm like, I hated all of that. Yeah. That was dumb. Yeah. I just meant, I just meant it's like the conduit into that. I'm like, Oh yeah. But also I'm just, I actually was just like, how did he get to a different, how did he get to a different continuity? Yeah.

before his exposure to the TVA. I think they're, oh God, you're right. Nothing makes sense in this movie, honestly. I mean, like, that was a part where like, nodding me, whereas like a lot of the other stuff, I'm like, I mean, the part for me is that, sure, there's an answer and I just don't know it, but Logan, Logan dies in 2029. That's the part that like, really, this isn't, this is a strange one. Cooks my noodle. You know what I mean? Like,

Logan died in 2029. Okay. Anyway. Sometimes gotta pass for that skeleton to be in that state. Yeah. And so like, I don't mind if he has traveled forward in time through the time door. Yep. But the TVA pulling him out in the first place feels like it means that Logan has already died and Logan doesn't die until 2029. Anyway, again,

The TVA is simply ignoring the rules of the multiverse. This is sort of like what we're dealing with here. And again, this is just like turn off your critical brain, turn off your logic brain is what Deadpool is imploring of you. How would you say this story? I mean, you already said this. This is not a movie where we're looking for a lot of emotional enrichment. So when we talk about multiversal stories that we've got in the past few years, Loki,

Spider-verse animated films, The Flash, if you prefer, Doctor Strange, The Multiverse of Madness, No Way Home. Something that you and I talked about again and again, chiefly with Loki, but certainly with any of these movies, is this idea of what a multiversal story involving variants is.

can do to a character? What does it mean to meet a version of yourself? All that sort of stuff like that. Again, this movie feels wildly uninterested in that and that is okay with the exception of, I would say, one scene. But like...

To your point earlier about, like, it takes all kinds of genres. Like, did you enjoy the fact that you're like, yeah, but I guess a multiversal movie doesn't have to be that. Maybe it could just be, like, fun. Or maybe this is sort of the wacky tone that, like, some of multiverse of madness is going for and didn't quite always achieve. Like, what do you think about that? Yeah. So I would say – I have a few different thoughts on this. I would say I was maybe, like –

surprised by how okay I was with all of this as I was watching because I think that's not my inclination actually I get as you know quite hung up on this stuff typically and so then I was trying to interrogate like when it did bug me or like why overall it felt um

is acceptable broadly. And I think some of that is because the multiverse is a device and a sandbox in which the film can play. And obviously like the time ripper and our examination of the timeline and the anchor being and the peril that a given reality will face if it loses its anchor being like this stuff is very deeply present in and ingrained in the movie. We get like

quite a few, you know, Deadpool movies are talky movies, so it's not surprised, but we get quite a few like exposition dubs. Naughty exposition. Would you say it's a lot of exposition for a three-quel? Exactly. But I think that while on the one hand, it might seem odd to say like a film where reality itself is in peril, like,

content to make the stakes feel smaller. There was like something intimate deliberately about it, right? Some of it is just like Wade holding up the Polaroid and being like, I'm doing this for these nine people, like the only people in the world I love. Like, I actually am not really thinking about the structural integrity of

uh, the timeline. The fact that like, I think some of the movies where that actually might've been more useful did have this, like either because we, as, as fans and consumers of the multiverse saga, or because of the actual intention of the movie, uh, uh,

like pan out and like attempt to achieve more. And then they feel small inside of that. That feels like a letdown, but like the, the, this felt calibrated, right? The thing we got was the thing they wanted to give us like that. I do think makes a difference on how you receive then what is presented to you. I did have, of course, like, because we're consuming this connected story, I did find it at some points like difficult not to think, okay, what's Loki thinking about all this?

Just based on where we leave Loki. Where is Loki? Yeah, it's hard not to think about that. And that is, I think, distracting no matter how fully realized one specific slice of the universe feels to you. Do you know, I actually think it was, and as much as I love her, a little bit of a mistake to put B-15 in here. Because like...

As the, other than the sort of visual aesthetic of the TVA, the like main connection between Loki, I mean, Elioth and the Void and all that sort of stuff too, but like in terms of like personnel. You're right that B-15 cements, this is after the, we shook up our corporate structure. Yeah, we know that Loki's sitting on a time throne right now. You know what I mean? Yeah, so that part of it was like,

That's tough. And I think that's just like one of the things that the movie can't sell from artful. That is where we are. And you can make fun of the multiverse and say that the, the films aren't working all you want. It doesn't change the fact that like Loki's going to be in our mind when we're watching this and we're watching stories to come something like the Deadpool core, like how that's deployed in the film. It gives me,

I laugh. I'm like, holy fuck, that's a lot of blood on the inside of the bus windows. Astonishing. It gives me none of the thing you identified that like I think we gravitate toward in a multiverse story. Like what is Wade learning really from those encounters?

Nothing from Nice Pool. Nothing from, you know. I can't wait to talk about Nice Pool. I'm assuming Nice Pool will come up in Wigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson TM. Actually, frankly, I can't wait. Great. I can't wait and I'm comforted to know that that's coming. I do think we got some of that. What can confronting your variants or what can showing us your variants tell us about your character? We did get that from Logan. Exactly. And that was much more effective. So to have a little bit of that thematic richness inside of the

That's what I'm saying. I think without Logan, this movie works far less for me. But yeah, Logan giving us, and Laura really giving us that richness was really well earned. I will just shout out this one thing. Again, I'm actually hoping that the response to this movie, similar to how the time travel doesn't necessarily really make sense,

in Avengers Endgame and especially like when some of the time shenanigans you have like the director saying one thing and the writer saying one thing and they're not being consensus. I think a lesson from this movie is sort of like if it's

entertaining enough or emotional enough or whatever, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. The Polaroid of his found family, it's a classic back to the future technique, which is, of course, one of Kevin Feige's favorite movies of all time. But yeah, here's what Reed Richards says in Doctor Strange. He says, quote, the larger the footprint you leave behind, the greater the risk of incursion.

Um, I would say that this movie has trampled all over a certain timeline in terms of like bringing Laura and Logan into a timeline where theoretically there's another Laura and Logan running around somewhere, like all sorts of stuff. And I, you just have to like actively not think about that or else you're not going to have a fun final time at the movies. Right. Um, or an incursion is imminent upon this timeline. Um, let's talk about Wolverine.

Let's do it. I will say we're going to talk about the variants really quickly. I just want to skip ahead. We already teased this. I will just say that I was, I have this in the nose down in like the Laura section, but I think my favorite moment of the whole movie, the only time that the movie, other than the closing montage, which did get to me in a sort of like, I lived this kind of way, was the Laura Logan pre-battle conversation. And that's the moment you alluded to where like we do, I mean,

X-23 isn't a variant, but like, you know, ish. But her talking about a variant of the Wolverine that we're meeting here, she's like, this is what my Logan was like. He was always the wrong kind of guy until he wasn't, you know. Yeah. That guy got to me, man. Yeah, that seems great. Daphne Keene is so good. So that was my favorite Wolverine thing.

Based moment of the movie. Same for you. Yeah, I loved that. I thought it was great. And again, it feels like important to spend some time recognizing what our attachment to the thing is in the first place before there are a lot of other scenes in the movie making fun of it or that at least exists and have the oxygen to exist because at some point something has gone wrong elsewhere. Like to...

Allow that variant of Logan who we find in this like...

hopeless place to like latch on to some belief that he can do something of consequence that he can help. Actually, you're not going to be able to go back and like save the people you love and like fix that. That happened. And like, I liked the moment elsewhere in the film where it's like, if we did that, then you wouldn't be the person who just did this thing. And like, let me just contradict myself and say, thank you for being there. Be 15. You had a great, you had a great moment when he said that. That was good.

Also, B-15 and Peter, like, I ship it and I'm here for it. So that was just wonderful, too. And so we did have those emotional moments of impact. And yeah, the fireside chat, I really, I really loved. Anything, any one of the variants you want to shout out, I imagine. I mean, Henry Cavill.

Again, this is stuff that I knew was coming, but I had a great time with. I laughed. The shot at DC, it was funny. Yeah. When he reloaded his arms the same way that Henry Cavill does in the Mission Impossible movies in order to get his claws out. Great. No complaints. Very good. Yeah. Old Man Logan.

Age of Apocalypse, all kinds of great stuff. I did not think that in the sort of like void space inside the void space inside of Logan's head, the field with the fog and the pylons, I did not think that that tragic backstory made a ton of sense to me, but it actually almost didn't matter because I found Emma Corrin in that moment so mesmerizing that like I wasn't that bothered by it. I feel similarly. Okay. Okay.

Wade Wilson, a.k.a. Deadpool. What is your favorite Wade Wilson moment of the... Oh, my God. I mean, it's impossible to pick. It's just like... I just... Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool kills me. It just... It really does. I'm such an easy mark for it. I just find it so funny. I think that, like, the stuff that we had seen in the trailers... Mm-hmm.

you know, the pegging joke. It's not new for me, but it is new for Disney. The recurring cocaine bit, all of that stuff. I, I found, even though I had seen it in the trailer, it's just hysterical movie. Um, you know, I certainly loved everything with, uh, with our Deadpool and dog pool. That was special. That was great. Really great. Yeah.

Really love, really love dog. Did you have a favorite moment? His little like claps, knees together claps at the end when like dog pulls shows back up right at the end when they're eating shawarma. Tremendous. Great stuff. You know, and on the less jokey, but more kind of like emotionally charged front, I will say, despite everything that I've said to this point about how Wade's motivations may not really like heighten the experience of watching the film.

I'm always a sucker for a, you think I'm going to let you be the one to do it, but then I'm going to go do it moment. Always a sucker for it. And even though there was nothing surprising about it, it's like, of course, that's what's about to happen.

It's odd, though, because it was slightly better done than a moment that you and I loved and wept over, which was the Loki long walk at the end. Because do you remember when that happened? And I was like, why aren't Mobius and Sylvie, like, trying harder to get to him? And you have Logan, like, beating the door down. Yeah, yeah. It was great. Yeah. It was great. Um...

the villains Paradox and Cassandra Nova and Elioth from Loki season one episode five this is like genuinely top tier stuff for me I've seen a lot of criticisms of the villains in this movie and I genuinely just don't get I think Emma Corrin is having so much fun I thought the design was so I mean like the finger skull fucking design was

I'd not said it before. This was so good. That's great. The way, especially when she was doing it to, um, I know you don't wash that hand. Well, yeah, gross, but also like paradox, which is,

When she's doing it to Paradox and like his eyeballs kept like sort of like gooping around as she was doing it. Oh my God. So good. Also like how disheveled he like he looked at the end of it because he had already had the like fucked up nose. But then his like hair was all fucked up and his face like looked saggier after she had just been like. Yeah.

And then she, like, dragged him by his head. It was so good. But also just, like, even just, like, the graceful telekinetic, just sort of, like, it was just, like, an easy little joyful jaunt for her to, like, sort of toss everyone around. And I just thought she was, like, so fun. And so, you know, and she, again, her...

Backstory of like Charles didn't look for me or whatever. It was like a little shallow and dumb or whatever. But like it didn't, I don't know. It didn't really matter to me because she was like mostly just trying to have fun. And I thought it was really successful. So I had a great time there. I liked our time with Cassandra quite a bit. You know, we were looking forward to our first movie.

R-rated Marvel movie. And obviously, Deadpool does a lot directly to follow through on that rating. But so does Cassandra. I mean...

Cassandra just zipping the skin off of Johnny Storm. What a moment. Slurping it up. Yeah. I think you're right. Like the speed and ease with which Cassandra used her powers. It's like one of, it's that visual shorthand in a movie where you just understand the magnitude of somebody's ability because it's so easy for them to beat everybody around them and to have the upper hand. Um,

You know, how often in a Marvel movie have we gotten to hear somebody say they can't wait to flick their bean to Enya? It's just like, what the movies? I was so proud of Emma Korn who like, you know, obviously like played Princess Diana in Netflix. Oh, yeah. Has done a lot of like highbrow, like always dress like oddly and stylistically on the red carpet. Seems to take like everything quite artistically seriously. And I was like,

I'm really proud of you for doing this. I'm really proud of you for doing this. And they seem to like really have a great time doing it. So I applaud you. I, uh, I hope that we get Cassandra back. Uh, you know, obviously this things did not end well for this Cassandra, but a Cassandra, uh, in another film, cause this is a fascinating character and, you know, a character who, since the, the Grant Morrison, uh, early,

early 2000s, 2001 introduction, comic fans have really loved and been really interested in. So fun to have Cassandra in the mix. Looking forward to more. Paradox. Tell me all your thoughts about Mr. Paradox. Yeah. I mean, just wonder, like, this is what, you know, occasionally what we liked Loki a lot and there would just be occasional like dry spells were just sort of like,

TVA bureaucracy could be like a little zippier and I feel like with apologies to like characters like Dot and Renslayer like this is what I want from like somewhat evil TVA bureaucracy is like the absolute slimy fun that Matthew McFadden's having here like that it's his like Tom Wongansiness through the lens of Mr. Darcy stuffiness like it was just like really worked for me I loved it how about you?

I enjoy every moment that we get to watch him perform on screen just as a whether it's Succession or Pride and Prejudice or Deadpool and Wolverine. He is like one of the greats of our time. And it was it was fun to get to watch him like do this and be weird and like that.

um kind of haughty energy like in a bootleg side quest on the sanctioned tva was like a really i thought fun mix so i i enjoyed it also again this was a trailer line and often i find them then less potent in the actual film but when he's like you appear to have soiled yourself and he's saying it like he's like describing the port he's about to offer you over your evening cigar so casual

Also, the speech he gives at the end where he's like pretending to care about Deadpool and Wolverine sacrificing themselves. And they like come back around. He just goes like his delivery of that fuck is so good. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. You know, for me, fitness has always been about finding that groove, whether it's hitting the pavement outside, which I've been a lot of or dialing up a sweat session indoors.

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Can't wait for this one. Alien Romulus, rated R, now playing only in theaters. Get your tickets now. Yeah, I had a great time with him. Also, I should say, like, I first met him before he played Darcy, before he was in MI5 or Spooks if you're British. And so, like, to see him, like, take that character, this, like, you know...

beloved spy craft leader and then just sort of do this instead was wonderful. Okay. The section I'm calling the Fox Force Five, even though obviously that's not exactly what we're talking about here, but I thought it was funny because there's five of them and we're talking about Fox. So let's start with Johnny Storm. I want to give this over to you, Malia Rubin, to talk to me about what this meant for you. I have no notes. Yeah. I have no notes. Again, there was a part of me that's like,

Not to have seen this in the theater without knowing it was coming, do you mean? Well, no, you know, I didn't mind that I got any of this spoiled for me on Twitter, ultimately. I made my peace with it and it was okay. It probably would have, yeah, I would have gasped aloud, I guess, when the cloak came off and we realized that it was a Johnny Knot cap, but still landed, still great. I thought the stinger going to...

A again, full commitment to the bit and to letting Chris Evans say some of the filthiest stuff that we will ever hear in the MCU when we all expect him to like be language. Steve Rogers on the S on the language guy, like was just a real treat. I'm,

I'm, you know, I had started to kind of like form my opinions on now, obviously, like Chris Evans played Johnny Storm in Fantastic Four films like that happened. So it's not the same as Marvel hiring Robert Downey Jr. to play Doom. It's like objectively not the same thing. But yeah.

I had sort of like been processing the Downey doom news before obviously seeing this movie. And now I'm like, has this had any bearing on how I feel about that or not? I'm trying to kind of like noodle on that. But in general, I thought this was a riot. I really enjoyed it. I feel while these prior fantastic four movies are not beloved. I, again, I have like a little bit of a pang for Joseph Quinn. Who's just like about to bring a new Johnny to screen and everybody's going to be talking about him.

how fun it was to see Chris Evans' human torch for a few minutes in this movie. The, like, proximity of that, I think, feels like a little bit of a bummer. But you know what? People seem fucking hyped about first steps about the new Fantastic Four movie. They really do. So I don't know if anything's going to abate or could abate our enthusiasm for that. And what a time. What about you? Any Johnny takes? Any Chris Evans takes? Any thoughts on hearing Chris Evans talk about The Seven Men in Rims? Back to the studio to me to talk about the most important member of

The Fox Force 5, which is Remy fucking LeBeau. All right. This was, yes, I already knew this was coming when I saw the movie. But, like, I was in Hall H when they announced Channing's movie, like, years ago. It has been...

If you've listened to any of our X-Men 97 animated TV show conversations, you know how much Gambit means to me. It's been the devastation of my lifetime that we never got Channing—well, have not yet gotten Channing Tatum's street-level New Orleans adventure flick.

I thought the runner, the running commentary on his accent, the sling bait joke, the minions joke, the dialect coach joke killed me. I thought the moment where I think it's Jen Garner's Electra was like, or maybe it was Blake. Like, yeah, talking about all the people they saved. And then he goes, or wanted to save because he never got his own movie. I thought the cards and the staff actually looked pretty cool in live action combat. The staff we like,

Mostly saw from a distance, I think wisely. So comparing him to Hawkeye, how dare. Great moment. But he shows up in the post credits in the background of the TVA, seemingly returning to his own timeline and something about the way that Channing Tatum has talked about it. I was watching an interview where he was talking about he was like, you know, a lot of people over the years have tried to help Hawkeye.

get, it was, someone caught him on the red carpet for his other film that's out right now, which is called Blink, maybe, I think, right? They were interviewing him and asking him about it and he was like, he was like, many people have tried over the years to like help me like essentially like get this Gambit film made. And he's like, Ryan has been, Ryan advocated for me being in the movie and I think Ryan like

I think the implication was that the conversation they had was like, this is maybe a way to actually, like, if this movie hits and your character hits, then the MCU might make the Gambit movie that, like, we all deserve, that you've been trying to get made for a million years at Fox, et cetera, et cetera. I would be thrilled. I thought he was...

fantastic as Gambit. I thought he was wonderful. I loved it. I thought of you the whole time. Every second that he was on screen, I thought of you. Thank you.

All right. We already talked about Laura, but I just thought Daphne. It's a Daphne summer. Jackie, team Jackie. Man. Great. Crushing it. Fan of her. I got emotional seeing her when she put her sunglasses on. And then I got emotional seeing that, honestly. And then seeing them again on her little face in the like behind the scenes footage montage at the end. I don't know. That kind of killed me.

thought the best joke honestly the joke that made me laugh the loudest and the longest of the whole movie was Jennifer Garner's Ben Affleck joke it's fine I laughed very funny so much it's fine I thought it was so good and I also thought her boots and also Cassandra's boots were excellent they gave them like

uh, slight wedges. So they're not in like heeled boots that like don't make a ton of sense for action, but they are like slightly wedged. So they are like stylish at the same time. That was a great compromise. I loved it. Um, blade. What do you want to say about blade? Um, uh,

I enjoyed kind of all of these larger than cameos, smaller than full roles deployments. Like, I... Obviously, it's fun to see Wesley Snipes' blade. I... There have been some lengthy discussions on other pods on the Ringer podcast network about, you know, trying to parse the...

and I'll be the only Blade, you know, joke. And like, whether that felt like really alarming given the development hell and the saga that the new Blade franchise with Mahershala has been in for so long. I guess like for me,

because we do get the, you know, lingering look, the turn to the camera, um, from Deadpool. It's like, it felt like of a piece to me with all of the other jokes at the, at the MCU's expense in the film. But it seems like some people felt that that like, uh, uh,

rose to a different caliber of like maybe pointing to something like really being done and whether that felt fucked up. But I did not feel that way about it. I mean, I don't think they would make an announcement about that project not happening via a line and Deadpool and Wolverine. I thought it I thought of it more. I was I was interested, like,

who is responsible for that line. And I did find this interview with Sean Levy where he said it was scripted. Wesley thought it was a little hysterical. We tried a bunch of reactions from Deadpool, but ultimately went with that eyebrow-raised Deadpool fourth wall breaking look. And to me, it just felt like, what's taking you so long, Marvel? Like, where's our Blade movie? Was more my read on it, even though, yes, we do have some alarming-ish Blade news, same as it ever was in our little sort of MCU rundown that we're going to do in a second. Yeah.

Anything else you want to say? Do you want to talk about dog pool more than we already have? Have I given you enough opportunity? I just thought dog pool was an instant icon and I look forward to seeing dog pool again. That's my take on dog pool. Thanks for asking. Yeah. Do you have a favorite variant?

Was it God Pool? You know, I think, why not Ryan Reynolds put his whole family in this movie? I think that's fun and fine. I thought McConaughey playing the cowboy Deadpool was fun. I thought Head Pool was fun. Like, yeah, I thought I had, yeah, great time. Let's do quick rapid fire awards before we go into our MCU look. As you mentioned, we watched TM with Joanna Robinson. TM.

Goes to nice pool. Yeah, for sure. I mean, phenomenal stuff. Just great. Honestly, great. The edges were like a little funky, but like the whole thing. And honestly, later when he called him Cafe Gratitude, that's like also another one of my favorite jokes the whole movie. I thought it was great. Very good. Yeah. Very good. Best cue the slow-mo needle drop. What was the best needle drop? To me, this wasn't close. Like the...

Like a Prayer was an instantly iconic movie moment, wasn't it? That wasn't mine. The slow strut? I loved it. But it's a very good one. Yeah, loved it. I think for me it was, and maybe this is like my musical heart talking, but You're the One I Want from Grease playing during the Honda Odyssey fight was really good. And what I really liked was, you know, they were like smashing up against the radio for a second and you get like a half second of

greatest showman uh intro cue as like for for the hue heads for the huge jackman heads like a little uh are we gonna do this to the greatest showman no we're gonna do it to uh to greece but i've had a really good time with that um

Van Milder, the best joke. What was the best joke for you? You know, I already mentioned that I really loved the recurring cocaine joke about Feige, and I did quite enjoy the begging joke. But since I've already talked about them, and since we talked about the Jen and Ben...

Joke as well. I'll go with, you know what I loved? I love a boner joke and I really liked the 206 bones in the human body. I love someone watching Gossip Girl. That was really funny. That's my pick. How about you?

Yeah, I feel like I'm cheating because I did blow it by saying the Jen and Ben joke was my favorite and it was. You can still pick it. I think I still have to pick that. Yeah, I really do. Especially, Sean Levy was saying that like...

Someone asked about the divorce people joke because there's like the one about Hugh Jackman letting himself go after the divorce too that's in the movie. He's like, we ran all the divorce jokes past the people. Like no divorce jokes got in there without... He was like, no, we didn't ask Ben about the divorce joke, but we did have to ask him like to use the Daredevil footage that we used at the end of the movie in the montage. So we did talk to Ben. Not about that joke though. So I'm just sort of like, I don't know. I just...

Jen Garner, you are forever an icon and I love you forever. All right. We're bringing it back. I don't know why. Secrets Girl watch. I thought we were done with this. This was a shock to see in the outline. A shock. I just thought it would be fun if there were a Secrets Girl in this movie. Who would it be? I think it has to be Peter. Oh. The way that he is able to insert himself into so many different situations and is beloved and earns trust and exposure. Yeah.

I'm going Peter. Okay. Yeah. I'm not going like somebody in a position of power or authority. Just going Peter. No. There for the hang. That's when you really get the good stuff. That's when you get the dirt. Yeah. What about you? I'm going with, and I'm sorry I did not look up his name, the TVA employee who has eyes only for terrible. Great stuff. That was very. I'm sorry he lost his mug to a time door incident, but here we are. Yeah.

Oh, I'm sorry. I just forgot. I forgot the part where Cassandra just pulled a sling ring out of her pocket. She's like, here we go. Would have preferred we stuck with the temp pads. Getting the sling ring into the mix was a lot. That was a lot. All right. That brings us to this easy breezy tour we're going to do through recent MCU news. We're not going to break down trailers frame by frame, particularly because we were not at Comic-Con. We were not in the room. We were not at Comic-Con.

Again, vibes only today. But elsewhere in the MCU, we should say, so just to set the stage for really quickly before we get to this Downey moment, which is where we're going to start, obviously. Bob Iger has started to say on earnings calls, like very plainly, like, quote, we lost some focus.

You know, we're pulling it back like the pandemic hit. We were leaning into a huge increase in how much we were making. And he says that he said, I've always felt that quantity can be actually a negative when it comes to quality. And I think that's exactly what happened as if he himself wasn't the one who set the mandate for Disney. Incredible retconning.

From Bob Iger, as if he's not the one who said, turn on all the content taps, we're doing Disney+. That's okay. So we're pulling back. So as we look at the schedule going forward, we're seeing far fewer releases. Right. The studio had 33 major releases put out in 2023 alone across all facets of their subsidiaries. That is... That's a lot.

Insane. So all that's to say, the Disney stock is down. Iger is admitting fault on earnings calls. Times are tough. It's not just like, you know, fanboys grumbling on the internet. This is affecting the bottom line. Then we get Downey and the Russos reassembling at San Diego Comic-Con. The Russos, who swore they were done with the MCU, will be back for two Avengers movies. And Robert Downey Jr., who swore he was done with the MCU, will be back to play Doom. Here's a couple questions.

Back over to you in the studio, Valerie. Will he be Victor or a Tony Stark variant who, through one life-altering circumstance or another, developed into the supervillain Doctor Doom? Yeah. What do we think of the new mask, same task tagline? Do we think that what that means is that this Doctor Doom, like Tony Stark, actually thinks he's trying to save the world and in doing so creates something

some sort of calamity or another that pushes him into antagonist territory. And how do we feel about Downey returning to do this versus how we would feel if they undo Tony's death in Avengers Endgame somehow Tony Stark returned. That Tony Stark. Tony Stark Prime, shall we call him. So Molly Rubin, Robert Downey Jr., go. Um...

I'm still processing this. I have some pretty complicated feelings about this. I'd like to separate the Russo brothers and Downey because they feel pretty different to me. Like, I think...

On the one hand, the thing that's the same is this larger question of like, what does it mean for the MCU to feel compelled to like go back into the past? Keep keep pulling buckets up from the well that, you know, worked play the hits. And will the hits work? Maybe, probably. Does it mean that you're not trying new things or that you're like capped creatively? Potentially so. So in that sense, of course, they're inextricable from each other.

The Russo's coming back. I'm kind of like in favor of, on the one hand, I hope that this does not signal that the MCU powers that be are like less interested in giving different directors chances to make movies that feel distinct to their style. That's a worry because I,

Whatever the response has been to some of those films, I don't think it would be fair to say it is always because of what the directors do with the movies. It's much more the design of the machine and how all these things relate to each other. So I hope we still get to see those distinct styles and fingerprints from different filmmakers. The Russo brothers made...

Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame. And those movies fucking rule. So like, I'm not upset about them coming back to direct two more Avengers movies. I'm certainly not surprised by it, despite whatever anybody said at the time, half a decade ago and before all the other movies that they have since made. Their desire now, you know, more than half a decade since Endgame to return is

If you read the Variety report, and I'm sure other reporting that will come out over time, they're getting a hefty paycheck to do this. All of this makes sense to me, and I feel like they have a genuine knack, not only for the grand scope and the spectacle of an Avengers movie, but as we've talked about it and chronicled at length many times on many prior pods, I think they have a real gift for

balance inside of the team up films and how to, how to like parcel out scenes, figure out scene pairings, some of which you might know you want, some of which might surprise you and like find that real chemistry inside of character groupings and sets. And then the balance across the film, I think they have a gift for it. So I have less complicated feelings about the Russo brothers returning. Before you sit down and can I just add onto that take? So the machine, the machine is in total. Yeah.

across those films that you mentioned is Joan Anthony Russo and then it's Christopher Marcus and Stephen McFeely as the screenwriters.

to my mind, equally important, uh, in term when it comes to balancing the equation of the team up, uh, Steve McFeely is coming back. So it's going to be the Russos and Steve McFeely are going to be working on these Avengers movies. Christopher Marcus apparently has said there's not enough money in the world, I suppose that could compel me to go back or I don't know. So some outlets have this listed as like Steve McFeely and Michael Waldron, a writer that we, you know, we've enjoyed his work. Um,

But I just want to point out, this is actually my main question mark. There is no evidence of what it means for Stephen McFeely to work without Christopher Marcus. That does not exist. They've only ever worked as a screenwriting duo. I don't know since they've worked in such close concert for so long.

who supplied what in that partnership. So I don't know what we'll be missing because I don't know how to tell a Marcus element from a McFeely element. But that's a big question mark for me is like, you know...

What if it was Marcus who was, I don't know, delivering the more emotional beats? Or what if it was Marcus who knew how to perfectly balance the team-up equation or all that sort of stuff? That's the bigger... I am very confident that the Russos know how to work inside of all this. And to your point about...

not hiring directors to do their own thing. I think looking at the shape of what's to come, I think they're not willing right now to take a risk on a

a slightly unproven director with the idea, I think in the past, the idea is the Marvel machine as a whole will carry this inexperienced director through to the finish line. And I think that they have found, for whatever reason, perhaps because they're stretched too thin because there's so much going on or this, that, or the other thing, both in television and in film, that's not really...

I think they were treating these people as just sort of like cogs. And now they're like, no, these are going to have to be like bigger pieces of the machine that we need to spend like much more time investing in or much more – put much more on their shoulders than we thought we had to in the past. And so you see that in some of like the showrunners that they're getting for their shows or the fact that they're even calling those people showrunners now.

in the first place is sort of this like new era post stumble that Marvel is like putting these people in position. So the Russos know what they're doing and they can do that. Or like someone like Matt Shackman who like proved himself on WandaVision. Like we can put him in this position and we have a lot of confidence in that. Okay. Back to you for Downey. Tell me your Downey takes. Okay. So...

My gut real-time response to this was like, wait, holy shit, what? Oh my God, wow, oh no. That was like in like five seconds, right? And I honestly haven't, I don't think that's changed a ton with a little more distance from it. Like I am, Joe, stop me if you've heard this before, I'm at war with myself and I'm up two minds. Up two minds, okay. I have, I would say zero doubt

That Robert Downey Jr. will do a great job with this and that it will be good and entertaining to watch. That's actually not the question. Correct. There's just, it's almost like impossible to conceive of an outcome here where he doesn't crush this and where we don't have a great time watching it. So like in that sense, I guess it's hard to complain. And yet I think it's valid to ask some follow-up questions about what this means for the state of Marvel. And that's part of what we're interested in doing today.

I don't know the answers to any of the questions you asked us at the table. Right. I think that's part of what's running through everybody's mind. Like the, the question of like, okay, you know, are we, are we going to watch a version of Tony become doom is, are, is Robert Downey Jr. Playing Victor Von Doom. Are we dabbling in some like infamous Iron Man territory? Like what are we doing and how we'll find out. Um,

I also think that it was inevitable that Robert Downey Jr. would feature in some way, however big or small, in the build-up to or conclusion of

Secret Wars. We were not going to do Secret Wars unless they literally could not agree at some point on how much money was going to be in that truck they backed up. He was going to appear at some point. I think I had been assuming that we would meet a version of Tony from another universe and it would be almost more like a version of what we got in Deadpool where a character returns and it's either a variant of them from a different continuity or the time is limited or something. I, as you know,

And as House of R, as the bad babies know, have, I try to come into a lot of this with an open mind and an open heart. And then I have my lines. And one of them is like, you can't,

you can't fuck with the sanctity of, of end game in any way. You just can't. It's because it represents much more than what happened in the story of that movie. It represents a, a more than decade long shared experience and a payoff on that time and investment for legions of people. You can't fuck with that. Sorry, Rhodey. Rhodey is gone. You can't fuck with it. God damn it.

I don't necessarily feel like that is in peril here. Maybe it is. Maybe it could be. Perhaps I'm being naive about that. I don't know that Downey coming back to play a different character has to jeopardize that specifically, but of course more broadly, yeah.

Then we start asking these questions about like, okay, are we always going to live in the past or how are we going to move forward? And I think like, you know, you are quite literally, you wrote the book on how all of this came to be in the first place and how many things, um,

expectations or shouldn't have worked but did and we trace all of that back to just the there are many different early moments of consequence but like hiring Downey hiring Downey to play a character who you never ever if you were just sketching out how this was going to go um

Would have picked to start with Iron Man. Ever. And they did. And, like, sure, it's because kids in a focus group like the toy. But, like, we went down a path that we weren't... Would not have, like, logically decided to go down if you had just had your druthers of, like, the rights and the character rights and all that. Okay. So I start to worry more broadly that we're closing the door on, like, just...

not to sound too dramatic about it, but like possibility, right? Like if the fear has taken root and the anxiety has taken root so fully that people are not responsive to what

receptive to the new offerings, and so let's give them more of or a new twist on slightly new flavor of a thing we know they love, then it is inherently going to thwart new discovery. And the propensity for new discovery is how the Infinity Saga ended up existing in the first place. And so I don't want Marvel to be... I don't want the...

people got spooked by The Last Jedi, and so we got Rise of Skywalker to seep into the MCU. Now, again, I don't doubt for a second that Downey will play a great Doom and that these movies will be good. Doomsday and Secret Wars, I would be surprised if at least his role in them and more broadly, like they're not...

entertaining films. I would be surprised and very disappointed. But what does it mean that we had to bring Downey back to play Doom? Doom is one of the most consequential characters in the history of comics. So not only are we like obviously pivoting from Kang in real time and like definitionally shrinking then the number of installments that Doom can be in and the scope of that. And maybe in some ways that'll be beneficial because feeling the compulsion to connect every single thing before has not actually worked. Right.

I kind of, my suspicion, and I could be wrong, but my suspicion is that Downey's going to play Doom in these two movies, right? Yep. But that ultimately there will be a different Doom played by a different character in the MCU going forward. I think you make excellent points. I'm going to try to like...

silver line it and say, I hear you and I so agree with you in terms of like, we can't just circle the same drain over and over again. But what's also true, unfortunately, is that a lot of their attempts to launch new characters are

since Endgame to now, be it Shang-Chi, be it the Eternals, be it Ms. Marvel, be it She-Hulk, et cetera, et cetera, has not taken root the way that they hoped it would. There are...

You and I love a lot of those characters. We had very strong connections to a lot of those characters. So I'm not saying that's an across-the-board failure, but I'm saying it didn't go the way they wanted it to go. For sure. And the way that they tried to introduce various characters via...

You know, and in some cases it really works. Like Kate Bishop really worked or Yelena Belova really worked. And like in those cases, you have legacy characters like Hawkeye or Natasha being the anchor, bringing those characters into the universe, passing the torch. In other cases, it didn't work as well. Like I would say Doctor Strange is not as successful a conduit, but like the most successful –

of an OG Avenger bringing a character into the MCU or into our hearts and minds is Tony Stark and Peter Parker, right? Using Robert Downey Jr. to bring Tom Holland into everything. That's not to say that Tom Holland isn't a charisma bomb on his own, but they really leaned on Downey to bring that character into our hearts.

to make us buy into a new Spider-Man. And so the potential for them to use Downey in that role for...

to anchor some of these other more shakier feeling characters into our hearts and minds is something that I am hopeful about, that that's a reason to use him. Do you know what I mean? I think that's a great point. And if that's at the heart of the strategy, in addition to all of the other reasons to do this, then I think that's valid. And obviously we're not just talking about the next iteration of

The Avengers, even though we're talking about the Avengers movies, like I think we would both obviously Galactus is going to be the primary villain of the Fantastic Four movie. But I would be astonished if Doom is not.

in like the stinger for that film. I would be, I think they've said he will be introduced to the stinger for that film. Yeah. So then like, you obviously have like this, like rich and incredibly important to many people, comics history and the connection between those characters. And like, so then it's one more little tether as we are introduced to,

the first family and to this new group of Marvel characters. Like as we talk about these different continuities and incursions and worlds clashing and this team up and attempt to save reality and what we are like exiting the multiverse saga seeking to then establish and bolster, you know, it feels like obviously like,

Fantastic Four is a huge part of that, but how do the X-Men connect to that? And like any little tether to a thing that people love and a performer people love watching and spending time with can maybe help make that feel more concrete. I think it's like because this is happening, you know, and again, there are so many different factors that are at play here, right? Like they didn't

sit down and say from the beginning we're going to start with Kang and then switch to Doom. Like, that happened for other reasons and those reasons are real. You know, the kind of end of a saga being the place where that happens, then it really feels like it becomes about the next phase and the next saga, not this phase. But they don't necessarily need to be mutually exclusive. I suppose it's like bringing Brolin in for reals for real. You know, you've had Thanos and the margins and then, like, let's bring Brolin in to, like,

really make sure all of this works. I don't know. Oh, I am nervous. I think it is them exposing their belly a bit in terms of their like desperation, you know, for where they are. But to your initial point, which I just cannot agree with more about,

Downey's going to be great. It's going to be entertaining and great. No doubt. Whatever it is, it's going to be great. But I think I agree with your other point, which is like, but is it the health? It's like a Band-Aid, but is it the antibiotics we need? Is it the solution or is it just a Band-Aid to what's going on here? Yeah, a stopgap until we can figure out the larger solve. And look, check out our Iron Man Hall of Fame if you haven't yet. Downey's Tony is my favorite

in the MCU and my favorite performance in the MCU and is one of the most important characters in my entire life. Like, at the most basic level, the fact that we get to spend more time with him in the MCU is thrilling, of course. Like, how could it not be? I just am like, what does this mean in terms of their, like, more broadly, their confidence and their creative ambition to try to figure out new solves for something that is, like, real? So, yeah, we'll find out, I guess. It certainly sounds like

The footage that people saw of Fantastic Four looked great. All right. So speaking of, let's just like zip through some – like we're just going to zip, zip through the timeline and talk about some things. So we're going to go chronologically. First things first is Agatha all along September 18th. Which stuff, Gail? Nope, because I'm going to have so much –

to say about this on the fall hype meter, but I mean, I don't know. There was a musical performance at D23 and Broadway legend, Patti LuPone was part of it. I'm, I have no notes about it. The only thing I will say in the vein of our, our beloved Manny Jacinto on Acolyte,

The fact that they're trying to tell us that Joe Locke of Heartstopper fame is just playing, quote, teen and not Wanda's son Billy, a.k.a. Wicked, is one of the silliest things I've ever seen in my life. Though, you know, maybe I'm about to get Ralph Boner'd again. Who can say? But speaking of Ralph Boner, Jack Schaefer, who ran WandaVision, which I love and I love Jack Schaefer, is the showrunner on the show. And I'm very excited for that. I'm hyped. Yeah.

I thought the most recent trailer looked great. I'm excited to travel down the witch's road. I love a trial. I love a test. A test where you have to rebuild your coven or your found family and you don't have your powers and how are you going to do it? And you throw in a musical element for Joe. Can't wait. This is great. It's going to be fun. I'm excited. Sometime in the near future. Eyes of Wakanda. No exact date on it. It's like a four episode like

3d CGI, uh, show that they're doing. Uh, they showed a clip of, they have confirmed that iron fist is going to be in it. Some version of iron fist. Anything you want to say about eyes of Wakanda? I'm excited. Uh, I look forward to getting a date and, and getting to see a trailer in general. I am quite enthusiastic about this era of Marvel animation. And I, I was really struck by the conversation that Chris and Andy had on the watch, uh,

I guess this was maybe coming out of Comic-Con. I actually can't remember when this was. It was fairly recently. Who can say what is time? Um, but Chris was basically like, you think that at some point Marvel TV is just going to be animated.

It should never occur to me as a possibility. And I don't anticipate an outcome that extreme, but the success of animated shows creatively in terms of the reception among the viewers and the number of things on the slate, the upcoming slate that are animated and seem likely to pop. The slate is pretty full

what would you, I mean, I think X-Men 97 is undoubtedly a hit. I think What If is much more mixed. I think season one, there was more enthusiasm certainly around What If than X-Men.

But like the question of like, obviously Star Wars has since moved away from this, right? Now everything that was animated needs to be live action. But like, you know, that moment where so much of Star Wars TV was animated, and obviously we still have great animated Star Wars shows. Shout out Bad Batch. I think it's certainly easier to say this is one universe and it's animated. You know, I think I didn't listen to that particular conversation that Chris and Andy had, but I think more along the lines of,

The absolutely tangled web of continuity that they found themselves snarled in by trying to keep all the plates spinning of all the live action shows and all the live action films and us trying to feel like we have to watch all of them. If they instead release animated shows that maybe you can tune into or you could not and you could decide and then you don't feel quite so like harried and obligated because there isn't unless you're.

Star Trek Strange New Worlds there isn't going to be a crossover that you have to pay attention to the continuity between these animated shows and live action let's talk about animation your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man formerly Spider-Man freshman year coming this year allegedly excited um

Brad Winterbaum, who is now the head of Marvel streaming, television, and animation, which is a fairly, within the last year, new development in terms of... Brad is always the one speaking on what is happening on Disney television, which was not the case. They have sort of put their house in order and put Brad Winterbaum in charge of all of that. So what if X-Men 97 Season 2, Eyes of Wakanda, Marvel Zombies, Your Friendly Neighborhood, Spider-Man, he said all of those...

Except for Marvel Zombies, will be out in the next 18 months, which is exciting. And your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man will feature Charlie Cox's Daredevil, Dr. Octavius, blah, blah, blah, Harry Osborn, and Coleman Domingo, the legend, will be playing Norman Osborn, which is really fun and exciting. Anything you want to say about your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man? No, I'm looking forward to it.

Captain America, Brave New World, Valentine's Day, 2025. Get your sweetheart and go to the cinema. I mean this sincerely. There's no, as you know, I recently spent a wedding anniversary of mine at a screening for Dial of Destiny. There is absolutely no better way for me to spend a day intended to celebrate love and romance than with Harrison Ford. So I am thrilled.

First look at Harrison Ford as Red Hulk. Have you been able to catch any of the like on Instagram reels, like footage that was recorded in the room of this? Have you seen this? How did you feel about it? I feel I feel excited that and I feel privileged. Forget anything that actually happens in the movie. That's like totally secondary. Yeah. That we get to be alive for.

this impending Harrison Ford press tour. I just can't believe it. Do you think they got Harrison Ford in the mocap pajamas or do you think a la Dial of Destiny they had enough archival footage of Harrison Ford's face that they didn't need him wearing?

to do that? Great question. I'm looking forward to finding out for sure what the answer is, but I'm guessing that he not only did the mocap suit, but that he was like, I insist on doing the mocap suit because I think the fact that he's like out on the Comic-Con stage doing the like, like, you know, can't wait to do, to do the face and to do the, like, it just shows me he's been practicing. It shows me he's in touch with his character and with his arc and,

And I just like, I mean, fuck the, the, the, the, all of the dial of destiny press was like,

Oh, a gift. A gift. A treasure. And so I just like, I can't wait for this. I thought this trailer looked pretty good. I'm interested still to see like the balance of given, as you have noted many a time, nothing new about a Marvel reshoot, right? Nothing new about going back to tweak an ad. I am interested to see then how

They've added Giancarlo Esposito's character. They've added Rosa Salazar's character. This is a... This is ample. Oh, a lengthy process. Yeah, so I'm really curious to see how... What the structural integrity of the finished product feels like. Can we identify and sense those seams? Or does it feel like it all kind of stitched together fairly neatly? My hope, given that we only had one...

Marvel film this year, and it was Deadpool and Wolverine, right? Yeah. My hope is that they have been spending all the rest of their time focusing on fixing this movie in a way that it won't feel, like, fixed with a capital F, but, like...

will just feel fine. The, the, the crit, the pre critique I'm seeing for people, um, is that they're worried that this is going to be like a, a Captain America winter soldier clone, given that, you know, the Danny Ramirez is here as Falcon. Um,

There's a former Black Widow character playing by Leigh Scherhaas who's giving, like, strong ScarJo vibes, I would say, in this trailer. And then Harrison Ford lending the Robert Redford gravitas. Though, that being said, I do not recall Robert Redford transforming into the Red Hulk, but I could be misremembering. Just pour in a tall glass of milk in his kitchen like a sociopath. I will just say, absolute menace. I will say...

If you're going to copy a movie, might as well copy from the best, I suppose. Yeah. You know, if you're going to try to do it, maybe make it Winter Soldier. And like this, you know, continued examination of the passing of the mantle and what Captain America will Sam want to be. And like, obviously the trailer leans into that with like the, you know, Thunderbolt Ross, like you're not Steve Rogers. And so the idea of like,

playing in the same sandbox of like the, the, the street level, you know, again, like the genre fair of like the, the, the spy craft and giving the film that kind of energy. I'm, I'm totally open to, I'm curious to see how, like in a movie that has red Hulk and the leader and the serpent society, we make room for like,

our pal Tia Moot, the ocean bound celestial from Eternals. Like how we make room for that in the movie. I don't know. I have some questions about that. Uh, but we'll see. This is like not that far away now. February, just around the fucking corner. It's really not. Okay. So that's how, that's how 2025 is starting with the Captain America movie. Then we're getting Daredevil born again. So to your point earlier about like going back to the well of something we're familiar with is March, 2025. We're going to be in the movie.

We're getting a show now that was supposed to be... It was like 18 episodes or whatever. Has been cut down. Has been reconfigured a bunch. And originally like...

There were rumors that like Carrie and Foggy were going to be like killed off early or all this sort of stuff like that. But now they're trotting Debra Ann Wall and Eldon Henson out on the D23 stage to like sell this. Jon Bernthal's back as Punisher. The trailer looks a lot like it's just Daredevil on Netflix season four, personally. Yeah.

I'm not stressed about it. I'm thrilled. Wilson Bethel as Bullseye, who I loved. I love Wilson Bethel in general, but I loved him in season three. He's in the trailer. I got really excited. The footage that we've seen is very violent, very horny. Kamala Khan's dad is there. I don't know why, but I'm excited to find out. Will we see Kamala? Will we see Jen Walters? Will we see Echo? Unless

I'm less excited about. Jen Walters, maybe we'll see. So like, what do you want to say about Daredevil Born Again? I can't wait. I mean, for years upon years, years on end now, you know, I would have ported this

and character set into the MCU if given the choice. So like the little moments that we've had with Matt Murdock in the MCU so far have been really delightful, wonderful stuff. The walk of shame in She-Hulk, the lawyer scene in No Way Home. The fight in Echo. Some interesting fights. Yeah, the fight choreography in Echo was really fun. So I love...

I loved the Netflix Daredevil show and I'm hyped to have Charlie Cox back in our lives regularly. It's, you know, usually quite rewarding to spend time with Kingpin. I mean, think of all the Chris Ryan voice work that awaits now that we're back for an extended run with his, the patron saint of both Chris Ryan voice work, John Bernthal. I mean, I love, I, I,

Did Chris pay you to do Native Aspen Watch on this podcast? He's on my mind. I don't know.

on my mind today. He really is. Well, we didn't get to do, you know, Talk of Thrones this week, so perhaps you're missing him. That's probably what it is. Like, last night, I just was like going, I had the shakes going through Withdrawal. No Talk of Thrones on episode nine, even though you promised me there would be an episode nine. I did. But yeah, Frank Castle, Punisher back. Like, this is, I'm excited. I really hope the show is good and if it feels similar to the Netflix show and like they didn't radically change the DNA of something people love, that strikes me as kind of a good thing. It's fine. Yeah.

All right. So it's 2025, Captain America, Daredevil. Then we get Thunderbolts in May. Careful who you assemble is the tagline. Love that. I like it. There's a mysterious asterisk that they said they will not explain until after the movie comes out. Yeah. We've got to look at Lewis Pullman as Sentry. David Harbour did a fun bit at Comic-Con. I've heard from everyone who saw...

that they thought it looked great. Florence Pugh says Yelena Belova jumps off the second tallest building in the world, which is in Kuala Lumpur. Ghost Protocol, Yelena Belova edition? Great. Give it to me. I have always been excited for Thunderbolts because I'm a huge Yelena Belova fan. I'm a huge Bucky Barnes fan. Bucky, yeah. You love US Agent. You love John Walker. I do not, though I do. I am a David Harbour enthusiast, as you know. Yeah.

As you know, I'm I am cautiously optimistic about this. Me too. I'm looking forward to this. A lot of our favorite characters are in this. Some characters who we have less warm feelings for, like, you know, Ghost or Taskmaster. But what can they what can be unlocked for them in this kind of like team up setting? I'm so eager to see what they do with Sentry. Like getting Sentry on screen in the MCU is like something we've been waiting for. So yeah.

I'm looking forward to seeing that. And like, who's going to complain about more time with our gal Val? Come on. I can't wait. I mean, yes, but remember in Wakanda Forever, we're like, Val, what are you doing in this movie? We don't have time for you. We simply do not. But she belongs in this movie. This is her movie. This is what we've been building towards. Okay. That's the end of phase five. Phase six. We're still in 2025.

So that's a Captain America movie, a Daredevil TV show, and Thunderbolts in 22 by 5, followed by the Fantastic Four First Steps. We got a little trailer, which has mostly footage that is like, seems like it's like, because they've said that Fantastic Four First Steps is going to start with them having their powers. So the footage that we saw of them, which is mostly like pre-flight footage,

Seems like it's going to be like video footage that they will be like looking back on of like, this is who we were before all of this happened. This is directed by Matt Shachman.

who, as we noted, cut his teeth on WandaVision, not to mention Game of Thrones and It's Always Sunny, et cetera, et cetera. Written by, oh boy, Jeff Kaplan and Ian Springer and Josh Freeman and Cameron Squires and Eric Pearson and Peter Cameron. Eric Pearson being the MCU's go-to clean-up guy. Set in the 1960s in an alternate universe, post-credits will introduce Robert Downey Jr.'s Doctor Doom and Galactus. Ralph Innocent's Galactus made an appearance in the trailer footage.

From what you've seen is your biggest takeaway. Delightfully flirty Pedro Pascal and Vanessa Kirby have been in the promo for this so far. It's, you know, two of the greats. I mean, the casting for this, I just think is extraordinary. Like I, I am so excited for this movie. If they don't nail this, it will be, I think devastating for people genuinely devastating. Obviously there's a, there's a,

entrenched history of Fantastic Four movies not going well, but the combination of like the early positivity and hype around this particular rendering, how much, like again, Deadpool making a billion bucks didn't solve everything about our questions about the future of the MCU. Like they got to get this right. A lot is riding on this and just the hype around the cast is

it's going to be, but like, because of unlike they've, you know, let us down before when all of the ingredients were there, but it feels like it does really feel like all of the ingredients are here for something wonderful and something special. And like, I just have a hard time imagining that,

We're not going to enjoy watching these four as the Fantastic Four. The casting is exquisite. I'm just watching them on the red carpet. Like, you sent me the Grogu video. I was like, this is, like, the best 90 seconds of my week listening to Vanessa Kirby ask Peter Pascal which son. Which son? And he's like...

Let me tell you about Baby Yoda. I mean, what a time to be alive. So yeah, I really can't wait. I hope this is great. I expect that it will be. I'm looking forward to it. What like the life Joe Quinn who had been a working actor for a long time playing Eddie Munson in Stranger Things and then just like and then just like being booked and busy.

Getting A Quiet Place, getting Gladiator, getting this, getting the new Alex Garland film. Joe Quinn, what a time. And Evan, we're excited for you too. Okay, so...

This is all 2025. I think actually, I think the thing that I'm most excited for in Fantastic Four that definitely sets it apart from the other efforts is this idea that we are setting it in the 1960s. Yes. I think that vibe and that energy that is such a brilliant idea. Like, I think trying, like, obviously Fantastic Four have exist across the decades in the comics continuity, but like,

The idea of like the first family and this whole story going back to an earlier time in our history in an alternate universe. I think that's brilliant. Yeah. Similar to the way that they introduced Cap. I think that was really smart. I'm excited about that placement and pulling them out of their moment in time into this larger story. And then like that, what they're describing as like retro future. Yes. Yeah.

I'm just like, feels like it has the potential to be a nice creative spark and something that feels very specific to how they meet this group of characters in the MCU. Something really distinct. Can't wait. So that's the beginning of phase six. Like that's how we're starting with Fantastic Four, a long anticipated. Blade, allegedly November 7th, 2025. Literally no one believes that. Not even Bob Iger, who said on his Q3 earnings statement, our 2025 theatrical slate is

has Captain America, Thunderbolts, Fantastic Four, Zootopia 2, Avatar 3. Did not mention Blade because Blade is definitely not coming out November 2025. You don't have to take Wesley Snipes' word for it. I'm here to tell you, I believe this with my whole heart. So will we still get Blade? I really hope so. Or we don't think we're going to get it in 2025. So that's where we are with that. Ironheart, however, speaking of things that have been on the shelf for a long time, Ironheart is coming out in 2025. I don't have a lot to say about it.

Shannaka Hodge is a creator that I really admire. This is a character that I think got a little bit of a bumpy launch. So I'm curious to see how she does in her own show. Our guy Alden Ehrenreich is here. You know, I'm excited for him. But I'm a little worried. This has been...

lingering and collecting dust and Marvel has not deployed it. And so I feel like maybe they're waiting to sandwich it between Fantastic Four and an Avengers movie in a way that perhaps we'll be riding so high on those things we won't notice when they just sort of tuck an Ironheart in there if it's a little bit more wobbly. Or they have time to further stabilize it, but...

The shooting on that has been done for a really long time. So I don't know. Maybe they can find it in the edit. I don't know. Or maybe it's going to be the best thing we've ever seen. I hope so. I think the balance of the different storylines in Wakanda Forever was obviously a big discussion point. In terms of just our time with Riri and meeting Riri, I did enjoy that. So I'm hopeful that the...

the show comes together nicely and it's something people enjoy. And then we're in the, we're in the, we're in the final stretch here. We've just got a couple of vendors movies to go. Avengers doomsday, May, 2026, Jody. Uh,

This is the thing I want to say about the Avengers movies. Feige has said not every new character that was introduced in Phase 4 and 5 would return in Avengers Doomsday or Secret Wars. So I think that's going to be interesting to think about who's going to make the cut as like we want to bring them back and who isn't. They're isolated, sort of the horror-based characters like Moon Knight, Scarlet Scarab, Werewolf by Nightman thing, the Eternals, Dane Whitman, Agatha Harkness, like the MCU could skip.

all of those characters and not like blend them with everyone else but like kamala khan monica rambo shang chi john walters gay bishop uh loki i i really think tom's done but maybe loki sylvie the new guardians of galaxy blah blah like those are more likely i think than some of those other characters what do you think about that sort of breakdown

Yeah, I guess some of it depends on how much bleed they want between the primary Avengers and the eventual young Avengers and whether they want to keep those...

teams distinct in the cinematic universe or not. That'll have some bearing as well. Will we be fortunate enough to get some pet Avengers in the primary Avengers? I sure hope so. I would expect also like the team to grow between the two Avengers movies. So I don't necessarily think we're going to start with, you know, dozens of characters in the Avengers in the

But I do think we will then build and add and amend the team by Secret Wars. And hopefully there's room there for that expansion to feel organic. There is an Untitled project that they took off the schedule for 2026. That's gone. Untitled Vision Show is...

the only reason I want to mention the, the vision show, which was formerly called vision quest and is no longer allegedly coming 2026, uh, is because Kevin Feige has said he hired the show runner, Terry Metallus, because he liked what Terry did with Picard season three, which is an excellent season of television. And this is as far as I can tell something somewhat new that they're doing in Marvel television, where they're hiring a previously experienced show runner who did a great season of television to come and do a season of television for them. Um,

Um, this is them and their showrunner era, and it's sort of just like a new thing. And I think it's great. Secret Wars, 2027, a couple of new untitled things on the slate for 2027 and, and some TBDs undated. Anything else you want to say about Marvel to come?

I'm excited for Fantastic Four. I'm excited eventually to make X-Men stories inside of the MCU. I am. I am cautiously optimistic. I am. Yeah. I feel refreshed and revived. I've regenerated. My Marvel soul is regenerated after watching Deadpool and Wolverine. What a time. Well, that's it. Great to see you, pal. I miss you. We did it. I miss you, too. We'll be back for something we haven't talked about in a long time, House of the Dragon, on Wednesday. It weirdly does feel like a long time, even though it's just been days. It's bizarre. It's bizarre.

Thank you to Steve Allman, to our generous pal, to John Richter, to Joe Miedinaron. You guys are all the best. We love you so much and we will see you soon. Thank you so much. Bye.