‘House of the Dragon’ Season 2, Episode 1 Deep Dive
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Welcome to Naughty Yotta Island. This season on Naughty Yotta Island. When we were new, they spoiled me. They even gave me a phone. But then, it's like I didn't exist. Don't take Yotta Yotta from your wireless carrier. Now with Metro, get that new customer feeling again and again. Introducing MetroFlex. Free 5G phones when you join, same deals as new customers when you stay. Only at Metro by T-Mobile.

Just bring your number and ID and sign up for an eligible plan. After 12 months, trade in and get our best deals on select devices. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. It's that time of year, so spread more joy with The Home Depot's giant holiday decor. Go big this holiday season with larger-than-life decor that really hits home. Be like my wife. She'll just go to Home Depot to see what they got cooking. She's always ready to plan for the holidays. Maybe that's a tree.

You can put together in a few clicks like the Grand Duchess. That sounds great. Or a huge eight foot towering Santa with posable arms and a flame effect lantern. That might be in front of my house. Or an eight and a half foot towering reindeer with illuminated flashing bells. That's the holiday spirit at the Home Depot. Shop in store or online now at homedepot.com. The mother knows. Do anything but what I ask and I'll bleed the whole lot of you. Greetings.

And welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Yeah. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to the royal quarters. Clearly. Nothing bad ever happens here. But also to House of R's newish podcast feed. Joining me today to remind us that the critical days since Viserys' passing have, uh,

Not gone to plan. It's Joanna Robinson. First of her name, Joanna the Dragonheart. Titles, titles, Mallory Rubin. You know what the doubt was. Jo, we're back. Yeah. And this is the stuff, as they say, as Viserys says. Hot D. We love Hot D. Season two is here. We have so much to get to today. But before we discuss the Caprice of Youth, some very quick programming reminders.

House of R, Talk the Thrones, Midnight Boys. We're on YouTube now. We sure are. Go to the Ringerverse YouTube channel if you haven't yet. Hit that subscribe button while you're at it. Smash that bell. Yeah, smash the bell. Give us the five stars. We're not too proud to ask, right? We're not too proud to ask. The hat is out. Kristen's hat? Yeah. Oh, boy. Full video pods.

of House of R, Talk to Thrones, and Midnight Boys coming all summer long on the new YouTube channel, on Spotify, and you can still listen to us wherever you get your podcasts. So that's delightful. What is coming very quickly on the programming front? Well, we've got a live show next week. I'm so excited for that. It's one week from today. Thrilling. June 25th here in Los Angeles at the El Rey Theater. If you have not gotten your tickets yet, there's still time. TheRinger.com slash events. Please join us. We would love to see you there.

We would love to not see empty seats. Come join us. You, me, Chris Ryan. Yeah, Chris the magnanimous. Some pals. Some pals. Also, we'll be back with you on Thursday right here for our Accolade Deep Dive. And then...

We will be with Chris again on Sunday night, immediately after House of the Dragon episode two for Talk the Thrones. So that's thrilling. The Midnight Boys have an instant reaction to the first episode of Hot D already up for you, and they will be hitting the Acolyte and the boys in one mega episode on Thursday. So lots coming, Joanna. How can everybody follow along? Oh, listen, why don't you just follow the pod? That would be a great idea, I think.

Subscribe to the YouTube channel, as we already mentioned. Do it. Follow us on X, on Instagram, on TikTok, Twitter. I refuse to bend the knee. Do all that on Peach, whatever you prefer. Love Peach. Also, email us, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. We got so many emails this week. We're thrilled to be back in the rookery. And yeah.

That's fantastic stuff. That's the stuff. You will also be back with everybody for Trial By Content on Thursday. Yes, Thursday. With Neil and Dave. So that's thrilling. Yes. So much coverage coming. Check out TheRinger.com, Riley, Cram, Bakes. Everyone is cranking out amazing pieces. It's just like a bounty of drag and goodness. Okay. Last programming reminder. It's the same one as always. It's our friendly neighborhood. Spoiler warning. Here it is.

Obviously, we're going to be talking about quite literally everything that happens in this episode of television. House of the Dragon, season two, episode one. Anything that ever happened in Game of Thrones could come up today. On the Fire and Blood front, as always, we will be incorporating quotes, details from the entire literary canon from Fire and Blood as we go for context, for additional insight. We will not be talking about anything that is to come in the future of Fire and Blood, which means future of the story until a separate episode.

safely sectioned off spoiler section, a little mini book spoiler section that we're going to do at the very end. We will offer up a real-time spoiler warning right before we start that, so you will have one more opportunity to bounce if you don't want to hear that. It'll be so clear. I think that's it. I promise. That's it. Joanna, duty is a sacrifice. Let's rock! ♪

It's time for the opening snapshot. This is not a sentence, but an honor. All right, we're talking about A Son for a Son, season two, episode one, directed by Alan Taylor, written by Ryan Condal. 59 minutes. Zippy. Zippy. Joe.

We're going to get to the deep dive in a few minutes. We're going to go beat by beat. But just like a quick amuse-bouche, a little taste. Yeah. What did you think of this episode of television? Yeah. What did you think of this return to Westeros?

Thrilled to be back at Westeros. My boosh is quite a moose by everything that's happening here. Alan Taylor directed this episode. Alan Taylor is sort of the producer-director of the season. It was fun to watch all the sort of like behind the scenes with him and his like jaunty little vests talking about everything. Fantastic. Great vests. Yeah. Talking about everything that he did for this episode. Also, he specifically called out Kristen Cole as the worst character in the story, which is a huge moment.

for you specifically. He was like, this is the worst guy in Westeros. Went out of his way in like a six minute inside the episode to say, let me just draw attention to the fact that this is the worst person in the story. And I was like, Joanna is going to be elated. Joanna, you were right. Chris and Cole is the worst. And I felt good about it. And Alan Taylor and I are now best friends. Um,

Thor The Dark World never happened, as far as I'm concerned. Underrated cinematic classic. Great. You know where I stand. I know. Shout out Maladie Akirst. On the wrong side of history. So I really enjoyed this episode. I enjoyed it more and more as I watched it. And most of all, I think...

In a meta way. I'm just so excited to be back, like, podding about it with you, doing Talk of Thrones with Chris, consuming all the great, you know, written content on TheRigger.com. What a great website. But also just, like, listening to our, like, pals we've known for years who cover Thrones, like, listening to their pods. Like, it's just really fun to be back. This is, like, how we found each other in the first place. Listening to each other's pods. Although the community of people who love Thrones, who cover Thrones, who get to talk about it with each other, it is, like, just a joy. It's a joy to be back.

Joy to be back. I loved this episode. I thought this was dynamite. Joe, I loved it. Joe, I loved it. I thought this was a fantastic season premiere. Obviously, we're going to talk for a while today about Blood and Cheese. And for book readers, this was one of the most anticipated, which feels like a fucked up thing to say, about such an utterly grim sequence. But it's one of the most infamous ones.

textual moments. And so we've been waiting for this for a while. Quite a move to start the season with this. I love it. It's a real like declaration of intent, a real tone set move. And you pair the intensity of what unfolded in this episode with the fact that we are, and we talked about this a lot in our preview pods,

widening the map. We're opening in the North. We're going to be in all sorts of different places. We're not just going to be in King's Landing, Dragonstone, Driftmark. No more time jumps, right? No more, oh, was this 10 years between episodes? Was it six years between episodes? Days. We learned that Rhaenyra has been out looking for Luke, very sad, for days. So we pick up in essence right where we left off and we are going to move at that clip the rest of the way, not only this season, but like through the dance. So I think that is going to be

very refreshing for some of the viewers who found the time jumps in season one not to their taste or liking.

And so I thought in just a number of different respects, this was a zippy, tight, incredibly well-written and structured and acted way to start the season. And I'm delighted to be back. I almost entirely agree. I will say that the bulk of our emails, and I agree with a lot of them, had to do with like, that's not quite what I expected from Blood and Cheese. Oh, yeah. Well, we've got some takes. So we've got some notes on that. And I will say that like something that we said in our previews.

preview when we were talking about Blood and Cheese is I remember you literally saying this could be the making of this show. And I don't think that's quite the case, you know? And in the behind the scenes, I think it was Ryan Condal was like hoping that Helena's flight down the hallway was going to like live forever in infamy of, in all of Thrones. And I was like, I don't, I don't think they quite hit the mark there. I'm optimistic for them hitting the mark with some other big things this season, but like right out the gate, that was one where I was just like,

Like, it wasn't, we sound like utter sickos. I know we sound like complete sickos being like, we wanted it, we wanted more. It's been an interesting experience both on Talk of Thrones, just in casual conversation with friends and certainly over the next, who can say how many hours, to have to confront the number of times that we say, I know this makes me sound like a sociopath, but. But, yeah. And yet, here we are. All right. We can only be ourselves. We can only be ourselves. That's the opening snapshot. Should we dive deep? Let's do it.

In the bowels of a pleasure den. Oh my God. The combo of... So this is the first time we've had the absolute genuine...

It is a pleasure, truly, of hearing the bells of the pleasure dome, one of our favorite bits, incorporated into the soundboard. Thank you, Steve, as always. Wonderful stuff. What a gem. To pair that with a dragon screech, I guess we knew on some intellectual level that that was going to happen, but you don't really know until you hear it, do you? It's a full journey. It's a lot.

It's a lot to take in. If you guys are new to this podcast, that dragon screech is actually Mallory and the throes of anxiety in advance of last season. We're going to talk about some characters being in the throes of other things today. But that was, yeah, the throes of anxiety there. All of our segments, we like to name them after things that are happening in the current season that we're covering. But for the deep dive...

We can't leave the bowels. We had to stick with Otto's absolutely like instantly iconic season one bowels of a pleasure den moment. Okay. Wait, wait, Steve, can we get a coupling? Coupling. Yeah. Coupling. It's time for us to do some content coupling here. Okay. Because we don't call it the deep dive for nothing, Joe. We are as always going to go scene by scene with

through the episode. Some scenes deserve more attention than others. Yes, we will be spending, I would say, somewhere between 50 to 60% of the episode talking about the Cargill twins. Oh, when you started with that with the cuh sound, I thought for sure you were talking about Kristen Cole.

And his new duties. We definitely have some Kristen discussions ahead of us today, no doubt. Okay, but we have to start before we actually get to the plot of the episode with the new opening credits. I was thrilled. I was over the moon. Give me your emotional response to seeing this before we go through what we actually saw. How did it make you feel? Crying, rending my garments, pulling my hair out. I was so excited. You love its tapestry. Here's a couple things that I know about you. Yeah, what do you know? You love an ocean vista. True. You hate a crevice. A poor crevice.

You love a tapestry. I do love a tapestry. Listen, the opening credits for last season of House of the Dragon were a misstep.

And we all kind of agree. And I, Brian Condal gave some interesting interviews where he was talking about sort of like why they changed it. And he has like an in-universe reason why. He's like, well, we sort of ran out of whatever. But like what's true is that they just were not successful. Nobody could see anything. It was dark. It was confusing, blah, blah. This is so lively and fun. This like real-time threads of the tapestry sewing the history of the Targaryen. So good. Yeah.

We're back to Valeria. We're back to Valeria. All of that. We're going to talk about everything it was. Yeah. I do want to shout out one of our listeners. This is just like a not-so-humble brag. We've got a medievalist professor listening to the podcast. Dr. Valentine emailed us about the – thank you, Steve.

Email us about the Bayou Tapestry, which Ryan Condell called out as direct inspiration. He told The Hollywood Reporter for this opening sequence here. But Bayou Tapestry, if you're unfamiliar, depicts William the Conqueror's arrival in England. Your guy. Your guy, Big Bill. Yeah. Yeah.

Completely unproblematic figure. So Dr. Valentine says, the bio-tapestry includes things like portents. A sign and a portent, a portent and a sign. Ships, battles, negotiations, and the crowning of William the Conqueror. So many of our favorite things. We love this. What did this make you think of when you first saw it? Were you thinking of anything in-universe? Yes. It made me think in addition to all of the real-world history that I'm definitely super familiar with. You and Billy the Conqueror?

think of Helena, who we will be discussing not only the character and her deeply tragic role in this episode, but the little, the mini dream dispatches that Helena is dispensing across the canon. I love this rebranding of mini dream, an MDD. Hitting the newswire. Yeah, Dateline. You love a Dateline. You love a Dateline. And one of the

mini prophecies that we heard from Helena in season one was hand turns looms, spool of green, spool of black, dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread, hand turns loom. Now, this is in the Driftmark episode of season one. It immediately transitions into just a classic bit of brotherly banter between Aegon and Aemond. And so even compared to some of the other- You marry her then. And Aemond's like, I wish I could. If mother would-

I love her and all of her bug stuff. Thanks so much. And so even compared to some of the other little Dream Dispatches, that one... The MDDs. That one felt like, oh...

okay, what is the larger connection and what is the thematic resonance? And it was a really fun one to parse. And so I just like that tether. And our interpretation is that she's talking about the different sigils, right? That we're going to have like a golden dragon. Yeah. What would Stannis and Renly say? Renly's got a lot of notes on this. It's obviously just terribly confusing if we're all using the same banner out at war. Would he be eating a peach when he said it? Who's to say?

Is he a ham? Game of Thrones. What a show that was. What a show. What a show. What a show that was. All right. What are we actually seeing in the new opening credits? Let's just kind of very quickly rapid fire. We lamentably don't have time to talk about the significance of all of these, but I think some of them will pop up contextually as we go today. You can't wait to talk about Maegor as much as possible. As you know, Maegor the Cruel is a fave of mine. I love him.

I love a maniac. Yeah. I love a Targaryen maniac. And we have no shortage in the story and he is one of them. So great to see him here. Jo, we open with the Valyrian Freehold and the blood trickle stream deluge from the season one credits. Yeah.

The blood is still present here. You know, fire and blood. Like, we can't abandon this completely. Absolutely. The blood into the dragon in front of a humanoid figure definitely pinged the blood mage.

History of the Freehold for us, which Viserys, of course, calls out in the first season. He's, much like our emailers, a scholar and a student of history. He's a history guy. He's a history dad. Yeah. Definitely read Shogun. For sure. 100%. For sure. What next? What'd you see next? Oh, we're wondering if this is Azor Ahai and Nysa Nysa. A sword?

thrust into the beating heart of your beloved. It definitely pinged Nysa Nysa. So it feels like that's what we're meant to associate there, but who can say for sure? The next image seems to be Denise the Dreamer, who's... I'm not sure if you've heard the Targaryens, the dreams, the prophecies. It's the power of a dragon against the power of prophecy.

I don't know why I really went into Waldrick. Power! He's a power voice there. This dream that ultimately led the Targaryen family to head west, to head to Dragonstone. Yeah, the Targaryens got the fuck out of there, but all the other dragonriders didn't. Tough one. Because Dany is the dreamer, like Helena, is someone who people don't listen to.

Yeah. Keep it to a tight circle. Yeah. If she had been like, hey, if Helena had been like the rats and Aegon had been like, maybe we should put literally one guard on this bedroom, then like perhaps all of this would not have happened. But no, the dreamers are doomed to not be listened to. But yeah, Dany's the dreamer. Which is not next.

The Targ's Going West, Dragonstone, Doom of Valyria. You love the Doom. I love the Doom. Who doesn't love the Doom? How many volcanoes? All of the dragons who died. When can we do a full pod on the 14 Flames? Okay. I would love that. When will there be a spinoff series? There are like 13 volcanoes, not enough. Um...

And then we get the conquest, which we might get a whole entire TV show about. Yeah, I hope so. I still have some thoughts on the exact sequencing and order of the overall House of the Dragon bucketing. And if we're going to eventually do Blackfire and Aegon's Conquest. And if we build eventually to doing Robert's Rebellion and the Fall of the Mad King. Like, should we not have gone and just reversed Kron or in Kronala?

But hey, you know what? I love a spinoff. So we see a few things in this conquest timeline, Jo. First, we see Aegon and his sister wives. The Targaryens, they love fucking incest. Not sure if you've heard. Aegon on Balerion. We're not talking about Mormon sister wives. We're talking about sisters, also wives. Who are also wives, correct. Sisters who are also wives. We see Rhaenys on Merax. Yeah.

I forgot my spray bottle. And we see Visenya on. Vhagar. Vhagar alive. Yeah. During the conquest. That's an important thing to remember. Old and huge. The Valarian ships on the water. Yes. So the Valarians were helping them out on the, you know, water battle front.

from the beginning. We get Balerion the Black Dread, which is what I call my cat when she's misbehaving, attack on Harrenhal. Great stuff. And the Field of Fire kind of incorporated into this same visual where you can see the carnage, the burnt bodies. If you look closely, you can see the Lannister Lion sigil. You can see the House Gardener sigil. And they're all black.

It's tough. Field of Fire, strong and accurate branding. My favorite, this is actually my favorite tidbit in all of this, is in the background, you can see Rhaenys on Meraxes going down in Dorne in the background. Hellholt. Yeah.

Another great name. George. Should we name the studio The Hellholts? I'm just thinking about it. I like it. I like it. But yeah, Meraxes is taken down by a scorpion, and we obviously see a scorpion in this episode. We sure do. Manned by Eric. With an A. Arik. Arik with an A. We then see some bending of the knee. We see the errants. We see the storks. The storks. We did so much acting.

The Starks. The Starks. This is Torrin, who, of course, will be mentioned prominently in the opening stretch of the episode. And we get to see some Tully action here as well. So this is a thrilling stretch in the Conquest to get to see this incorporated. The Arryns and the Starks and the Storks have crowns. Crowns. Tully, not so much because they were never crowned.

No. They were never kidding. They were like, if we bend the knee, you're going to improve our circumstances. Great. Great. I'm in. I'm in. Then we get your guy. My guy, Maegor. Maegor the Cruel. Maegor the Cruel. The sprawling expansion of the Red Keep. We'll talk a little bit more about Maegor's tunnels later. Wonderful to see that here. And then on the Maegor front, we do see him, Joanna, impaled on the Iron Throne. Now, this is wonderful. We talked a lot as Viserys's

various appendages were falling off last season and the back wound first and then the finger cut and on and on we built this idea of the Iron Throne holding you in judgment. But letting Aegon just sprawl his entire worthless body across the throne. Who seemed more comfortable in their seat? Aegon on the Iron Throne hanging out with his mates who...

I know you have some thoughts on the name for that crew coming later. Or Chris Ryan on the Top of Thrones set. Oh, Chris. 100%. Both remarkably at home. Oh, just at ease. Like Bo-Katan. In their element. Yeah. And Vermithor and Silverwing are present in the sides of the frame as Maegor is positioned in the middle. Those are, of course, the dragons of Maegor.

J. Harris. The old king, J. Harris. And Alisaine. Who get a mention, who get a name check in this episode. And Vermithor is, of course, the dragon who Daemon says, well, I'll abide to at the end of season one. So we've seen, so Vhagar and Vermithor are still around. Yes. Still kicking around. Yes, yes, yes. Great council. The great council. Now we're up to content that we have seen. Shout out Rhaenys and Corlys who look great in Stitchwork frame there. So like, Emma's there. Yeah.

you know, Viserys is there. We've seen this. This is how season one opened. Then we get a fashion moment. Alison in her green dress, Rhaenyra in her black dress. It's a bold statement. When you saw this in opening credit tapestry form, could you still hear Larys and Harwin say it? No, I leaned over to my sister and was like, do you know what color? Green. When old town calls, it's banished. Yeah.

Then we've got the divided table, the greens on one side, the blacks on the other. It's reminiscent of both the wedding feast where this actual fashion event happened and also that final dinner that the family had at the end of season one. Viserys just drifting off like, I solved it.

I nailed it. Are you excited for your future? And everything's going to be fine. Are you really excited for your future when you gather your family and your friends around you and you're carried in on like a massive throne? Yeah.

I intend to be brought to the bathroom for our first break via litter. Okay. Yeah. Arjuna and Steve, I hope you have that waiting for her outside. Okay. So we have all of that. We get Aegon and Rhaenyra both crowned. We start with Aegon's, like, the gold dragon sort of emblazoned on his dress. Loves a fit. Loves a fit. And then what do you make of the hands? The hands. So the...

Ravens coming out of the team Green Hand and the dragons coming out of the team Black Hand, the envoys dispensed at the end of season one this initial attempt to secure allies. Do you think Aemon's pissed at the top or is he just like... I was going to say, I would have like... I think Aemon's notes are... Ravens and Vhagar. Have you heard of Vhagar? Have you heard of him a lot? We got Stormsend because of me, not because of some ravens. Thanks so much. Okay. But speaking of Vhagar. Yeah. Vhagar chomping on...

my sweet, darling little air axe. And Luke was also there. And Luke makes it an intact humanoid form into the tapestry, which just one more subtle little way of reminding us of the unreliable narrators quite literally stitching together Targaryen history and Westerosi history here because Luke is...

inside of Vigor's gastrointestinal tract. Or is he? Period. Period! Did you have a favorite inclusion here, Jo? This was loaded. I think we can, based on Condal's comments about the reason that the bloodline tacked in Season 1 kind of reached its end, the bloodlines are set, we want to be able to update and continue to incorporate new canon elements into the opening credits. So that's exciting. We'll see more just as we did with Game of Thrones as we go. I know, it's so exciting. What we have so far, did you have a favorite? Um,

I think seeing the Starks and the Tullys and the Arryns, the promise of the Riverlands and the North and all of that. I mean, we're about to talk about the North and winter and it's coming and all of that. But having that representation was really exciting. Harrenhal on there was really exciting. And I am really excited to see how they expand in future episodes. How quickly are we going to get an update? Are we going to get blood and cheese? Is poor Helena...

going to be in the tapestry uh next week tune in to find out i hope so i think the real question is will that poor dog who was so cruelly treated by cheese obviously that's the headline of the episode and the great horror that unfolded will that pup make it into the tapestry she took the dog and it was appalling not great appalling okay those are the opening credits

Let's talk about Jace. Jace treating with Craig and Stark in the fucking North. Winter's not coming, Joe. It's here. I mean, not actually. We do get a detailed conversation about where we are in the seasonal calendars. Jace is like, oh, what is this falling from the sky that shivers me bones?

Jace like briefly going into pirate mode there was so funny to me I loved it but we get to go through the north we see Winterfell briefly we go to the fucking wall before we talk about what actually happens in this sequence and what it means what did this do to you in your body in your soul I don't know if you've heard me say this before but I'm of two minds you're at war with yourself two dire wolves

And one of those dire wolves, like, the eyes of that dire wolf started, like, watering as soon as I heard this dark theme. What is it actually called? It's like, Goodbye, My Brother. Which is just Rob and John saying goodbye, season one. So hearing this dark theme... Heartache. I was just like, oh, shit. And then we see Winterfell. You're just instantly poured it back. And I was just, like, very emotional. And then...

you know, good old Craig Stark starts speaking and it's just like, oaths, duty, oaths, oaths, sacrifice, duty, oaths. That's all he's saying. And so then the other wolf inside of me kind of went like, it was like, I'm being pandered to in this moment. But did that wolf love it? Did that wolf want to be pandered to? I think the first wolf ate the cynical wolf. And it did work on me. But there's a little part of me that I was like,

It was almost North Winterfell's dark parody, you know, the number of times he said oaths. But I did love it. We will talk about the larger significance inside of the Egon's Song of Ice and Fire. You only have that first joyous wolf inside of you, and that's what I love about you, is that you're just sort of like... Oh my, I... Yeah, you were just like... This was such an uncomplicated...

A couple minutes of just sheer jubilation for me to be back in the North. I, as we've talked about many times in our various preview pods, trailer breakdowns, et cetera, these, in general, Jace's mission to the Eyrie, the Three Sisters, White Harbor, Winterfell, I just love that stretch of Fire and Blood. And we're just talking about a few pages of Jace at Winterfell, but it's like some of my favorite stuff in Fire and Blood. I just love it. So I was so excited to see this.

I am lamenting a little bit how quickly Jace left because, yeah, I would have loved for him to spend a little bit more time there, though I understand why the necessities of the flow of the episode, getting him back for the funeral, et cetera, made that impossible.

But it was wonderful to meet Craig and Stark. It was wonderful to see the Wall again. It was wonderful to travel via Ravenwing into Winterfell and just be in the North and hear that score and just remember what we love about Thrones. It just felt good. It felt good and it felt right. It felt mostly good for me. First.

Primarily good. And it does continue this tradition with season one after the Great Council prologue going into the card. We're now nine years into the reign of Viserys. And the connection 172 years before Daenerys wanting to draw these ties. Would you say that was fire and this is ice? Is that what you would say? We did see ice. We did see ice. Dude, Kragan just walking around with ice strapped to his back like it's nothing. Yeah.

It's like, do you know what I can squat? Do you know what I can bench press? Now, I do not know anything about exercise, so those are probably not the right things.

Probably not the right muscle groups to say, but wonderful stuff. No, I thought Jace's polytrates curls looked wonderful. I mean, you're our wig watch scholar, so this is big. We're going natural hair here, right? Natural hair. Looks great. I mean, not on Craig Stark. Not Craig. No, no, no, no, no. But Jace has left the wig behind. Yeah.

Rocking the curls. Looks wonderful. Sensational stuff. Joanne. On the hair front, I will say one other thing. I was listening to a bunch of other breakdowns and a bunch of people were like, oh my God, and there's a girl in the Winterfell courtyard with long red hair. And I was like, I was sitting at home going like, well, actually, Sansa gets her red hair from her mother. So why would there be red hair? And then I rewatched it. Her hair's auburn at best. It's not even like, I don't think that's a Sansa reference at all. But anyway, I was just sort of like,

the Tully red. Okay. Anyway. You're in like a real Littlefinger memorable shade moment right now. Please never again compare me. Pull up your hood. To Baelish. I would appreciate it. Thanks so much. Okay, Jo.

We have a lot to hit in this scene. Yeah. Who is Kragan Stark? Who is Torrin Stark? Let's talk about Kragan for a minute to orient us in this scene, and then we'll pan back to history, and then we're going to talk about some of the thematic significance of what we're seeing here. So Kragan, or Craig, as Chris Ryan calls him. And it's catching up. It is catching. It's catching, and it works. The Wolf of the North, though. If you were called the Wolf of the North, it's hard for me to call you anything but that, personally.

Lord of Winterfell, Wolf of the North. That's hot. This is just elite. This is great. Absolutely elite. Listen, he's a little lord. He was. He was only 13 when he got Winterfell. And his father, Rickon, we saw him very briefly in season one. He's one of the lords who bends the knee to do obeisance to...

I come across that in Fire and Blood. Like, interesting. Sure. Do obeisance to Rhaenyra. And I'm not sure if you have heard this about the Starks, Jo, but they... The Starks? They remember. They remember their oaths. They don't forget their oaths. Oh, man. He had to basically fight his own uncle for control. Familiar with a family squabble. Helpful. Yeah. A Benard. Do you prefer Benard or do you prefer Benjicot?

What about Ben Jin? Ben Jin? Let's go with the classic. All great, honestly.

Benny Stark. Good old Benny Stark was not a great uncle and sort of tried to take over. But so yeah, so this boy, right? This boy king, he's not a king, but this boy lord of the North has already had like lost his father, lost his brother, had to fight his uncle for his- Lost his wife. Lost his wife, had to fight his uncle for his seat. So he is already battle tested as a teenager. Absolutely. That-

The death of his brother, which we learn about in Fire and Blood. Top of mind in a couple reasons. Like, in Fire and Blood, it's positioned as that's part of why he and Jace bond, because Jace kind of reminds him. Just boys being lads? Okay. Lads being bros, dudes being gents. But also, of course, then in the show, when we see Kragan receive the Raven with the news of Lucerys' death...

He has suffered this. Now, not in the early days of a familial war of succession where Kin ate his brother. Wait, I have a question. But he did lose a brother. So another bond there. How does Westeros feel about Kinslay? Are they down with it or? No.

No man is as accursed as the Kinslayer. This is one of our favorite refrains. No man is as accursed as the Kinslayer. You're the Kinslayer expert, and I love that for you. Tough to decide what I like to say more. No man is as accursed as the Kinslayer, or this is the stuff, Lionel. Two of my absolute faves. Kinslayer is a classic. Okay, Torrn Stark gets a name check here. Yeah. The King who knelt. Yes, and we see that again. We see that kneeling in the opening credits. Yeah. It's all here. Yeah.

Joanna. Yeah. The kneeling. This is the kind of stuff where we as book readers are like, when she says our ancestors treated in this very place, we're like,

Well, actually, the red hair comes from the totals. Yeah. Because that's at the Trident. At the Trident. In the history. This is an example to me of a book to show change that I think makes perfect sense inside of the context of what they are trying to tell us about Aegon's dream, about the Song of Ice and Fire, about this prophecy that is being passed down from Targaryen ruler to heir. Ruler to heir. And so, like...

When we think back to the way that the kneeling, the king who knelt, it seems like a tough label to carry, right?

oh, you're the one. You're the one who gave up our independent kingdom. But I've always been struck by this passage from Fire and Blood. From that day to this day, Torrin Stark is remembered as the king who knelt, dot, dot, dot. But no Northmen left his burned bones beside the trident. And the swords Aegon collected from Lord Stark and his vassals were not twisted, nor melted, nor bent. So that's not just...

a sign of allegiance, right? An alliance well-struck. In the context of the show, you think it indicates now they're chatting about the real threat that awaits. Death marches on the wall. So what happens is Tornstark rolls up and he's like, Harrenhal, barbecue. Field of fire. That happened. Hot bummer. Not great. And so history would have us believe he's like, what chance do my men have against all of this?

Brandon Snow sneaks over into the camp. Brandon Snow's like, I'll kill the dragons. I'll do it. Message is flying fast and furious back and forth between the two camps before Torrin goes and bends the knee. So my question is, I mean, Dorne held out. Oh, yeah.

You know, like, Dorne never bent the knee. So, like, there's one version of this where you're just sort of like, he didn't want to lose more men. They had depleted the men at the Wall. This is why, you know, our guy Craig is about to talk about this tradition that started after Torrin in terms of sending people to the Wall. They had depleted people at the Wall. Like, they had already borne the cost of the conquest. But I like this. It kind of...

implies here that perhaps Aegon's like, listen, Torrin, you seem like a pretty cool bro.

You're guarding the North. Let me tell you about this dream I had. Yeah, and I don't know that... I saw me. I don't know that he would tell him actually that he... The details of the dream, just because it does seem like it's such a tightly guarded thing. But I do think the show is implying, just again by positioning him as, oh, he went up North, which is just not the setting of this crucial moment in the text canon. Yeah.

I'm going to tell you that I understand. I think it's at least worth asking this.

How much did Torrin Stark know and when did he know it and what was passed down? And then, so, because the thing I bump on is like, then why, where did that knowledge get lost? But that's an exciting thing to think about, actually. I mean, we've always asked, like, why must there always be a Stark in Winterfell? Like, you know, there's lore around Winterfell that feels like there is some sort of indication of prophecy. Still love the, it's quite literally where Winterfell is.

Remember season eight of Game of Thrones, man? The wall, we should say, was built long, thousands of years before the conquest. So it's not like Aegon's like, zombies are coming and they built a wall. That's not what happened. But just sort of there's this...

I think this indicates more than anything we've ever gotten before that perhaps there was some conversation. Perhaps not. Maybe he didn't pull out his dagger and thrust it into a fire and say, look at these words. That explains it all. But, you know, maybe there was just some communication here. I like it. I like it. It's fun to consider. I'm into it. There's a lot of discussion about duty.

which we feel clearly is meant to, again, connect to this larger burden that the Targaryens have inherited, or at least think they have inherited. Steve, can we hear a little taste of this? Since the days of the First Men, we have stood as guardians against the cold and the dark. Through its long tradition, the Night's Watch cultivated its strength from doomed men who had their life as their only possession.

But my ancestor, Torrhen Stark, began a tradition by making an offering at the onset of winter. One in ten men from our household was to be chosen to fortify the Watch. This is not a sentence, but an honour. A duty embraced by all who serve the North, even by mine own kin.

That's how I feel about going from working remotely basically all the time to, you know, suddenly being on the 101 for six hours a week coming to the studio. Did Bill, did Bill like... It's not a sentence, it's an honor. Did Bill overnight message you of like a little box and you open it up and there was a black rock inside of it and you're like... The rock pulling, it's so heavily pinged Survivor for me. Oh, yeah. I loved it. Yeah.

Do you think that's what they're saying when they pass around the rocks up in Winterfell? Outlive, outlast, outplay, outwit. What is it? Outwit, outplay, outlast. You love Survivor. Okay, Jo. Duty. It is a recurring refrain across Thrones. Of course, it makes us think of Jon.

Of course, it makes us think of the Night's Watch. It makes us think of Maester Aemon and Jon. Love is the death of duty. We talked about this throughout season one. But it also makes us think of Rhaenyra because the season one finale, the throne has been usurped. Daemon's doing dragon math. He's ready. Heads on the spike before the fucking moon turns. And Rhaenyra says to him, you know my oath reaches beyond our personal ambitions. Now, it turns out he doesn't.

But the way that Rhaenyra thinks about duty, the way that Rhaenyra thinks about this larger pledge and obligation to the realm...

We talked about this a lot last year. Aegon's dream, not in the book. Right. So this is all new to us in the show. Though when you start to think about it and then you reread Fire and Blood, a lot of Targaryen decisions, you're like, okay. Oh yeah, absolutely. I see why you burnt that down. Oh my god, no doubt. It's actually really fun to comb through the text looking for connections to this idea. Viserys passing this on to Rhaenyra, key part of season one. Rhaenyra realizing that Daemon, not

really ever embraced by Viserys as a true heir. Of the loop. Not in the loop. Yeah. Not a worthy recipient of Viserys' mind of this information. So we've been awaiting what we assume will come, which is this moment when Rhaenyra will share this with Jace, her heir. Right.

This feels like such an intentional, Jace not only hears this from Cregan, in winter my duty to the wall is even more dire than the one I owe to King's Landing. Well, you think they put this 700-foot wall up for the savages? What does it keep out? Death.

The heart of winter. Even just the way that Jace, his face and his voice change when he gets to the edge and looks out beyond. Which is, to be fair, what everyone does when they get to the edge of the wall. He didn't piss off the edge of the wall, though. He missed a chance. That we saw. You think right after he learned that his brother had died, he was like, let me just take a quick piss. When am I going to get this chance again? I'll be with you in a minute.

Just need to take a quick piss. But so yeah, it feels like this experience will really inform how Jace receives this information from Rhaenyra. So I'm really looking forward to that scene, which I hope we get. Tell him we don't know that. But like, yeah, this idea of a monarch or a leader, let's say, divided. Yes.

And divided by something that not everyone else is aware of. Right. I love those parallels between good old Craig and Rhaenyra. Everybody holding your decisions in judgment without being able to have access to what is guiding them. The king who knelt. And you don't know everything that Torrin knew. Yeah. I love this. But Jace on this tour with the curls popping. Sensational.

And his little, like, his little princely cape. He just, he, fantastic. Envoy. What an envoy. No disrespect meant to Luke, but, you know. I mean, Luke got one look at Vhagar, one question about whether he was able to whip up a marriage pact and was fine.

dead like 45 seconds later, Jace had a better result. I think that's undeniable. Delivers Winterfell. Big get. Huge. Huge. The airy. Wonderful stuff. I... Okay, you had prepared me. This was one of the things in our like 900 preseason pods where I'm like, I really hope we get to go to the Vale and meet Jane Eyre. And you're like, there's absolutely... There is not an iota, not a shred of evidence that we will have this scene in the show. And I'm like...

They have cast Jane Aaron, though, for the season. I can't wait to meet Jane. I love the, but notwithstanding your mother's poor taste in consorts, she remains our rightful queen and mine own blood besides. And Aaron on her mother's side, in this world of men, we women must band together. This is part of what I was really looking forward to. It's not only the Aaron blood tie, Emma Aaron, Rhaenyra's mother, but Jane Aaron cannot...

I think it's more powerful if she's like, I want to support Rhaenyra, but ultimately can't support Aegon and hope to keep her oversight of the Vale. So that's an interesting dynamic. The yada yada over Jace going there. Jace comes back to Rhaenyra later and is like, I got it. And three sisters and White Harbor are not even mentioned in the season one finale. Shout out the Manderlys. Apologies to the Manderlys. This is the one thing that we as A Song of Ice and Fire lovers are going to continue to have to suffer through forever.

waiting and longing for the mid real time with the manderleys that we never get we're just like yeah there's a manderley like sitting in that chair i guess i i see the sigil that's a manderley man um so yeah we just yada yada we skip white harbor we yada yada over the airy but yeah and then we go to force the pact of ice and fire

Did you get the exact forging of the pact that you wanted? No, I did not. You got a couple thousand graybeards. Yeah. This is another thing I know you love. You love an ocean vista. You love a tapestry. You love that the old folk in the north are just like, when winter comes around, the food, we're going to have to ration. So I'll just go die so that the young folk can have more to eat.

So Craig is saying, like, take the old people. It's a duty. It's a sacrifice. Really connected to that northern tradition in a way that I loved. Craig tells a story about Jaharis and Allison. You actually are going with Craig.

I love this for you. For now. What a win for CR. I will say, I get a little anxious about pronouncing Craig-ins. Craig-in. It's a Craig-in, Craig-in thing in my head. I used to think when I was reading it that it was Craig-in, and then once they started saying Craig-in, and the Craig thing is helpful, actually. Craig is helpful that way. So, like, we call them Ned. We call them Rob. Ned-omba. I know you meant Ned Stark, but I can't hear that and not say Ned-omba. Okay. Ned-omba.

So Jace is good at this, right? Jace is good at this. Jace is capable. I love how deftly he navigates this mission and these relationships. We'll talk about the return later, the heart-wrenching moment with Rhaenyra. But one of the things I was really struck by is before they break down and hold each other and grieve, the way he calls her- Craig and Jace? Your Grace? They hold each other off screen, right? Do you ship it?

Yes. Yeah. Or why not both? Because in the book. OK. Yeah. I missed this. Listen, in the book, two things happen. Yeah. One, Craig and Jay spent a lot of time together just like rowing out. Right. Yeah. Then he also meets Sarah Snow, who is. I'm sad this was cut. I am.

Craig's sister. On the one hand, I don't want Jace to be a fuckboy. I want him to have more respect for Bela than that. Yes. But this was actually one of the unreliable narrator bits that I was most looking forward to seeing, like which account was accurate because they vary so substantially. So I'll lament the absence of Sarah Snow, though I did love this stretch. If we had had more Winterfell, and we think we're pretty sure we're not getting any more Winterfell this season. Okay. Okay.

Per Ryan Condal. This is a bummer. This is it. Five minutes. They're like, yeah, in the future, sure, but... This is it. So this is what you're missing out on, show watchers only, in the book. Very dramatic. Craig and Jace. Turn to the camera. I learned that from you.

They drank together, hunted together, trained together, and swore an oath of brotherhood sealed in blood. Okay. That's what Jason Craig we're up to. Here's what Jason and Sarah were up to. Did they get married in the godswood? Did that happen? Did she give herself to him wrapped in furs amidst the snows as the old gods...

those absolute perverts looked on did that happen who's to say what did jace do i like the idea jace is man if you can't remember jace is engaged to baylor yes so that is i agree important to me yeah and when he comes in to see raniera later in the episode baylor like escorts him in and stuff like that so that is like important definitely i don't want him to be a fuck boy but like i agree

I agree. Maybe he's just like, you know, so you're in the North before you go back and get married. Again, I did love this scene, but seeing Jace just be a person? A guy. Which we haven't gotten a lot of that. So this is an email we got from Ryan. Yeah. He said...

He was talking about the oath sworn and the drinking and the training that Jace and Craig do together. And he says, just bros doing bro things like swearing eternal loyalty to each other. I redacted something. You know, like you do for your platonic bros. If the goal is to keep focus on the Targaryens, it seems weirder yada yada over the Pact of Ice and Fire just to get to a big CGI dragon battle faster. So much of the best of thrones. We always say this.

And the best of House of the Dragon was people talking in rooms around fires. And I can't help but feel like we missed out on some very interesting moments in that Northern storyline. Whether or not it proved that this queer fan's gaydar is working properly. So whether or not you ship Jace and Craig, Jace and Sarah, or just Jace and more character development. Yeah. We sort of rushed through that a little bit. I think the line in Fire and Blood that we get clearly is...

Like, that they nailed, I think. We get that clearly. But the bro being a dude? Just a guy being a bro. Glad.

blonde blonde blonde blonde yeah just wearing an oaf yeah yeah yeah so you mentioned the dragons okay Jo you love a portent you love a sign you love a sign you love a portent this story that Cregan in the very limited time they have together chooses to offer up Jaehaerys Alysanne their dragons were here they did not want to go beyond the wall slight update here to book canon but that Jaehaerys is there yes in the book Jaehaerys is home

and Alysanne is bored waiting for him. So she's like, goes up to the wall, right? She's just like kicking around Winterfell. She's like, I'm bored. I'm going to go to the wall. She writes him a letter. I love Alysanne. I love these characters. She's the best. She writes him a letter from the wall and every time I read this, and I love this section, do you remember

when Fire and Blood came out, I don't think you were as much of a slave to content as I was at the time, but Fire and Blood came out while Game of Thrones was still happening. And it was a mandate from everyone who covers Game of Thrones, quickly scour this book for any hints or clues that might pertain to what will happen on Game of Thrones. And Alysanne and the Wall was the number one thing that we all looked at. Okay? Alysanne writes home to Jaehaerys and every time I read this... And the rumors about Vermax saving an egg. Oh.

At Winterfell. That was also huge. And in the stretch. Very important. Alison Rice, a letter home to Jaehaerys. And I always read it as if she is like a Confederate soldier writing a letter home.

And that's how I'm going to read it to you now. Oh my God. Okay. She doesn't start it, my dearest Jaharis, but let's pretend she does. She says, Thrice I flew silver wing high above Castle Black and thrice I tried to take her north beyond the wall.

But every time she veered back south again and refused to go, never before has she refused to take me where I wish to go. I laughed about it when I came down again so the Black brothers would not realize anything was amiss. But it troubled me then, and it troubles me still. Just going to request in real time a social clip. Yeah.

We need context for that, please. Silverwing did not want to go beyond the wall. No. Because guess what? There be zombies. Yeah. You know, Daenerys, you know, pushed her.

her dragons beyond the wall and that did not go well. Vermax, who we don't get to see in this stretch of the show, but we do hear about how Vermax is feeling about this in the book, not a fan. Snow and ice and cold made Vermax ill-tempered, it is said. This is not a place the dragons like to be and of course for...

Any of the Targaryens in possession of this great burdensome prophecy seeing the dragons respond that way would only bolster their sense that something nefarious awaited, but also potentially heighten their anxiety about how equipped they would be to deal with it. So this is just delicious. I love this. I love that Craig is like, thanks for not bullying me with your dragon. That was so funny. Unlike, you know...

Aemon taking Vhagar to Storm's End. Oh, man. I just think this is... I mean, this is the whole thing. It's like, we'll take our dragons and we'll show them what we can do. And Craig is like, actually, diplomacy is working better here. Us being bros and pals together. Us hunting and climbing trees. Yeah, and you maybe fucking my bastard sister. While the old gods look on. Raptor first. Who among us?

That was the north. We did it. What a scene. What a five-minute stretch. What a scene. A meaty opening. Meaty. A lot of lore. A lot of lore. Okay, next. Yeah. Into the Dragonmont. I loved getting to actually see Maelys fly into the opening of the Mont. Delightful there. I thought it was so interesting how they introduced all the castles, right? So the raven flying into Winterfell. Yes.

Maelys flying into Dragonstone and then the frickin' high towers galloping into King's Landing. Driftmark is a little different. But we get these three major castles with these, you know, ravens, dragons, fuckin' high towers. Driftmark, you're just oriented by blood sloshing off the... Yeah, blood, sure. Ravens, dragons, the fuckin' high towers and blood. Sounds great. Rhaenys...

Absolutely pooped from patrolling the blockade in the gullet solo. Yeah. And has one of the instantly memorable lines of the new season, Maelys must gorge and rest as must I. Daemon is not particularly interested in this feedback, nor frankly in anybody's feedback. Wants to team up to kill Vhagar. I cannot face that hoary old bitch alone.

Horry Old Bitch. Constant reminders of Vader's might. Yes, it was great to get Horry Old Bitch in the show. Evebus described this meeting between the two of them as a panther meets an electric eel. Fantastic. And I can't say I...

I think she's the panther and he's the electrochial, right? I am going to flip it simply because of her association with a seafaring house now. Okay, fair. And put her in the water. I feel like the electrochial is a little bit more chaotic and less controlled and the panther is like prowling. They both have better armor on than I think a panther or an electrochial could probably manage. And her wig is incredible. Fabulous stuff.

I assume you'll have some takes on the improved wig coming later today. Absolutely. In wig watch. Absolutely. Did you have a favorite set of armor? I mean, they're both wonderful. I think yours looks... It's great stuff. Amazing. Great stuff. So Damon wants a son for a son. Yeah. Now, let's keep an eye on...

blinding name. Let's keep in mind later, because we are going to do some, oh, we cut away from Daemon's instruction to blood and cheese. What exactly do we think unfolded there? And what are the implications, et cetera? Let's keep in mind that we hear him say this here, long before Rhaenyra comes in and says, I want Aemon Targaryen. He's already on an I want a son for a son campaign. That was just permission. Yeah.

Not that he thinks he needs it, but yes, a sanctioning via the half a sentence. He is here, though, again, the team up to face Vhagar. He is specifically indicating that he wants to target Aemond and Vhagar. Yes. Renice will heed only Rhaenyra. Would that you were king, Daemon. Oh, great line.

It is a command. A great line that she said while walking away and just sort of like blithely taking her gloves off. Tough moment for Damon to be like, it is a command. She's like, fuck off. Whether you were king. Nice try. That feels like the kind of, from just, if we put ourselves in Damon's deeply insecure headspace, you know, he's a character who we love who is like deeply flawed and troubled. That kind of a response from Renise feels like the kind of thing that would linger. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. But that's what I love about Renée. She knows exactly where the bruise is. And she's like, let me just casually, in a walkaway moment, just press on that bruise. I can't even be bothered to stand still while I insult you. I'm not even going to raise an eyebrow. No, I'm just going to throw this away. I told you, I need to get some protein. I got a gorge. Some complex carbs. I need a Gatorade gel. Don't get between me and my gorging, okay? So, yeah. I need an ice bath. I need a sauna. I don't know. I don't know much about...

and or recovery. But as I understand it, you're supposed to do some sort of like hot, cold, ice and fire thing. But like, let's point out that Rhaenys is like patrolling alone. Something that Daemon could definitely help her with. Yeah. Like, who's got dragon? Like, Bela is young, maybe too young to patrol. But like, Rhaenys is just doing this solo and Daemon's like throwing a hissy fit, wandering around being like, when can I kill something? And she's like,

I'm actually just trying to keep us safe. So thanks so much. And goes out of her way to say it's a good thing.

that Rhaenyra's not here. It's a good thing, because Daemon is lamenting Rhaenyra's absence, which I want to talk about more in a second, but just stick with Rhaenys' perspective here for a moment. This, in particular, is what swung Rhaenys to Rhaenyra's side. The finale, Rhaenyra's impulse to caution restraint, again, an example of like...

where we have the context that not everybody else in the room does of why Rhaenyra is thinking that way. Daemon wants to go to war, Rhaenyra doesn't, and that is the thing that finally brings Rhaenys into the fold. It's hard not to think back to, like, this was part of Rhaenys' character from the beginning, right? Think of Eterni. Bad wig. Great scene.

fist full of steel balls full of seed joe what else was gonna happen but she says yeah we expect them to act with honor and grace it's a marvel that warden break out at first blood that she says about the nice attorney you have to be thinking about those guys when we later meet like agon's bros absolutely that's exactly yeah you know yeah fist full of steel balls full of seed they do not know what you know green is summer grass

They don't know... Nights of Summer? Yeah. Sweet summer children. They don't know what... None have known real war. Right. And Daemon, in contrast, is a seasoned warrior. Chris loved the Stepstones. The Balls of Seabourn, not sure. Actually, no. He's got many children. He's got many children. But that moment in season one where Rhaenyra asks Daemon...

If you could take the Iron Throne without putting Otto Hightower's head on a spike, would you? Really? Like, call him out on this. Is it because of the outcome you're seeking for justice? Petty vengeance. Yes. Or because you want to beat this fucker who you hate. And that's just present throughout this entire exchange with Damon here, too. Something we talked about a lot last season was this idea of, like,

When we watched Amon riding Vhagar and... Vhagar? Where is my water bottle? And, like, the look on his face when he lost control of Vhagar. No, no, no, Vhagar, no! Right.

Daemon is Rhaenyra's Vhagar. He is the dragon out of control. He is the dragon she cannot leash fully. You know what I mean? And it's just sort of like, it is dangerous to have a Vhagar and it's dangerous to have a Daemon. I love this. We talk a lot about the parallels between Aemond and Daemon and how the position is mirrors, foils, but Vhagar and then Daemon is great. I love that. Daemon, we have a lot of notes. They've both seen a lot of battle. Indeed. And they're both like, kill now?

Kill later? We have a lot of notes for our guy, Damon Targaryen, in this episode, but I do have to say, when Damon acted as audience avatar to once again remind her niece that she exploded through the floor of the dragon pit. Killing hundreds. Slaying legions of small folks for no reason. Hundreds of innocent peasants and then was like, the royalties.

I want this, which was the low point of season one, to be mentioned as often as possible moving forward in the show. I don't actually want us to pretend it didn't happen. I'm glad that the characters are talking about it because it was deranged. Kinslaying and, I don't know, what is more accursed? The nomad is more accursed than the kinslayer. As you recall from the time. The thing that... Small folks slay. Who cares? Demons know about whether Rhaenys should have ended Aegon's line is like... But the kinslayer

exploding through the floor and killing all of the assembled. It's just no way to wrap your mind around it. So he flings that in her face and he's like, and Lucerys would still be alive, right? Luke would still be alive. And then she's like, let's talk about people still being alive. Let's talk about your wife, my daughter, Lena. Yeah. And Rhaenyra's husband, my son, Laenor, both dead as far as she knows.

And those deaths, she puts at their doorstep. Absolutely. She despises Damon. She shuts him up pretty quickly. It's pretty phenomenal. It was so striking. Electric eel style. Yeah.

It was so striking in the season one finale when Rhaenys arrived on Dragonstone to deliver the news of Viserys's death that she only addressed Rhaenyra. Like, Viserys was Daemon's brother, but she can't even bring herself to engage with him. She really despises him. She hates that guy.

And so that made it particularly dramatically compelling for her to broach, to allude to this with him, right? When she's talking about why Rhaenyra has to go do this, the confirmation closure that she needs. She is grieving, right? What does Daemon say in response to this? The mother grieves as the queen shirks her duties.

Okay. Thinks I hate it. It makes us think of a couple things. It makes us think of Damon being at the war table while Rhaenyra is in labor at the end of last season. Crying out in pain. Screaming. And everyone's like, do you want to go check on your wife? And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We got more to plan. Okay. Hate. And then later...

I mean, we know where he is. He's in King's Landing doing a crime. He's got his murder hoodie on, all of that. Why go to Luke's funeral when you could go wear your murder cloak? Yeah. Again, we love Damon, but this is tough. No, I mean, I love Damon. He's an absolute piece of shit. Let's just be clear about it. So the Mother Greaves is the Queen shirks her duties is one of many moments in this episode and throughout the series in general where this like

like, you know, this gendered language comes in, right? It's just sort of like the mother here, Alicent telling Rhaenyra that she's like leaking at the small council table. But then Alicent feeling it in this episode. She's now the dowager queen and no one wants to listen to her. Yep, absolutely. So, you know, these things are just sort of peppered in there. And Daemon, as you point out, is like,

Her closest ally. If this is what he's saying, what is everybody else going to say? What is every other man on the Black Council saying? That tension and anxiety for Rhaenyra was so palpable in the finale. And so to then feel that here in this, like, just another trial, losing a child, losing now here, losing a child, like the grief is unrelenting. The loss is unrelenting. And Rhaenyra can't rely on the people who are in theory closest to her to just support the

the time and space she needs to grieve. Except for Rhaenys. I'm like, I'm just really proud of Rhaenys here, just sort of holding it down. She's like, we got to wait for the queen. Excuse me. Also, we should say, I mean, we don't want to get too much into it because, you know, we don't want to get too far ahead looking, but we should say Rhaenyra is also slightly off the board in this moment in the book because of, you know, the traumatic events

stillbirth, I guess is what we call it, that she just had, that she is just like- Can't ride her dragon. Physically recuperating. This is different. She's on Cyrax immediately, like flying around trying to find Luke's body. So it's slightly different, but they- Yeah, and we were primed for that in the finale in a way that surprised us in real time when she mounted her dragon to fly to the bridge. It's like, oh, they're not going to do it this way. But the impact is the same in that like, where's Rhaenyra? Yes, right. Which is the question in the book and the question here in the show right now.

Jo. Yeah. From Dragonstone to Driftmark? Let's bring on the bloody deck. Let's chip some barnacles. The sea snake, the ship. The sea snake, the character, Corlys, walking out to the docks to meet Alan. Would you name your ship the Mallory? I mean, I think, but personally, I don't love the name Mallory. So probably not. The Reuben? No, I don't think so. No, but I would name it Lady Joanna.

Yeah, I would. After you. My great love. Yeah. Not the Halo? Is that the little dinghy as the Halo? Oh, my sweet Halo dove. He's the best. Alan. We don't know what to say here. A-L-Y-N. Great stuff. Watch this space. Alan is a new character who was introduced in this scene.

We'll talk about this more in the book spoiler section. So it's difficult to talk much about Alan here, though obviously this is a full conversation. Like, this is clearly going to be a character in the show. Let's talk just about the Corliss perspective for a minute because we learn that Alan is the one who pulled Corliss from the water. You know, blood fever.

It's tough. We're still grateful that Corlys healed and is back with us. The repairs, you know, Alan is working on these repairs. Corlys is like my completely wrecked ship. Guys, it's going to be barnacle-free in days. Need it out there. The front is a collapsed, burnt hole of a thing. The blockade needs me. Alan's like, we've sent seven...

Recently repaired ships out already. So you don't think that the ship looks ready, close to being seaworthy? No? No? Not in my expert ship rate opinion, no. As the master of ships of this podcast, you do not believe that the sea snake looks close to being ready to join the blockade in the gullet. Okay, sad. I love this job. The dagger, though. Yes. Corlys receives this dagger that was meant for Luke, and he is...

Quite emotional. The pommel. This little clam. Yeah. Delightful. It's darling. Very sweet. Yeah. Wonderful. So for his heir, something that he had made for his heir, little Luke. Yeah. And it's sad because this is obviously the loss of a family member, but-

The loss of a child, not the last loss of a child in the story. Not sure if you've heard of blood and cheese, but it makes us, it takes us back to that stretch of season one, which was the bulk of season one where Corliss's obsession with,

was with legacy. And this was ultimately the rift between Corlys and Rhaenys. And it's only when Corlys... She's like, why don't you put the girls who are so obviously related to you on... Which we actually had a note about at the time from the Rhaenys perspective, because it's like, these are your... You're going to sacrifice these poor boys. It was such a complex dynamic. But history does not remember blood. It remembers names.

What's this coreless core driving force until the very moment where he's like, I'm good with this, actually. And then Renise is like, no, it's time to go to work. But he's very mollified by Raina and Luke who are engaged. So Bela and Jace are engaged and Raina and Luke and we get a little shot of Raina at the funeral, like the sort of ISO shot of Raina being like, well, there goes my 13 year old. I guess I won't be the lady of Driftmark after all. To go to King's Landing.

From the docks to the ramparts, I regret to inform you that it's time to briefly discuss Big Crossbow, which... Do you know, back in the day when it was first introduced on Thrones, on Storm of Spellers, we used to call it the Dragonfeller? It's very dramatic. I love it. Like something that fell as a dragon, but also just sounds like, oh, that Dragonfeller over there. You mentioned Hellholt. You mentioned Meraxes and Rhaenys.

That's the history. Everyone in the story at this point, the story we were watching, is aware of that history. Yeah. Information that we as viewers have that they don't is that we watched Euron Greyjoy use bigger crossbow to take down Rhaegal because Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet. She kind of.

Anytime I see a scorpion now on Thrones, even though scorpions are part of lots of great sequences like Spoils of War, it just gives me that Euron and Rhaegal PTSD. So I was like... I just mostly blanked out that that happened. I just don't think about it at all. I think about the dramatic reveal of the scorpion in the bowels of King Leading. So you then got to focus not on the memories of Euron and Rhaegal, but instead on being back with...

Eric. With an A. Your least favorite Cargill twin of the two. Actually, he is. Yeah, of course. I mean, how could we not be Team Eric? Eric was like, I swear to war to the queen. That's great stuff. Viserys's crown made his way to Dragonstone and then just walked into a funeral and made a donation. From Boston. Like. Possible. Wow. Possible. Swear to war to the king of the harbor. Yeah. Yeah.

Two things. One, an observation. One, a question. The observation. The fact that the Scorpion is on the battlements of the Red Keep, they're prepping for attack at any moment. Great sign. They're ready. They're readying. I won't say they're ready. They're readying for one kind of attack. Yes. Okay. Correct. And they've got the Scorpion. Their anti-aircraft missiles are in progress. No equivalent of some sort of security measure at the door of any members of the royal family. Not one single guard. Right.

On an entire floor of the Reds. So I know I teased already in the intro the great coverage on TheRinger.com, but that reminds me, I just want to specifically, everybody should really take the time to read Riley McAtee's lore breakdown every week.

He does a great rundown this week of all of the different alliances across the map, who's aligned with which, what does it mean for the map, et cetera. But he did a fascinating little refresher on just how few Kingsguard Aegon has right now. Yeah, because three fucked off.

Digger Dragon stuff. Warren and Stefan were already there. Harold's like, peace out. Eric swears to war on the queen. Like, it's time to, maybe Kristen should be assigning new members of the Kingsguard rather than fucking Alison. It's just a thought. It's on his list. I'm sure he'll get to it. After a haircut, who's to say? Okay, so here's my question. Hmm.

They're prepping for attack by dragon. They're like, what's that dragon in the sky with giant obvious holes in it? So here's my question. With cheese wings, yeah. Who is more desperately in need of an eye doctor appointment? Yours truly, or Eric with an A. Eric. Who was basically in Vhagar's jaws by the time he realized which the oldest and easily largest dragon in the realm. It's like...

Most easily identifiable by the massive holes in his wings. Here's what I would say. The stakes are higher for Eric because if he makes a mistake, then he's like a flambe, right? Roasted in his armor. I just have seen you squint at things that are right in front of your face. And I love and care for your mother. So I'm going to say... Oh, ma'am. Has she emailed you recently? Go to the eye doctor. She's always in my heart.

She's always in my heart.

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Some models, trims, and features may not be available or may be subject to change. Check with your local retailer for current information. Lincoln and Aviator are trademarks of Ford or its affiliates. Okay. Joe, I have a question for you. Have you seen our son? No. Have you seen new rats? No. The queen is an enduring mystery. Any notes on interrupting, disturbing his custom? All right.

Let's take a moment to talk about Aegon. Oh, the dragon cock. The dragon cock. The magnanimous dragon cock. Okay, so he comes into the nursery. Helena's there muttering to herself, uncaptioned, very annoying. Thanks so much, HBO.

Everything that Helena is muttering. So please caption every single word. Thank you. Anyway, she's there. She's sewing. She's embroidering golden dragons, but also probably bugs. Let's be real. She's working on next week's opening credits. There's actually a theory. I saw this theory going around that she's like, she's making Jaehaerys' funeral shroud. I mean, that is devastating to contemplate. Also real...

Gold will be their crowns. Gold will be their shrouds. Circe, Mags, prophecy tie there. Interesting. I'm always thinking about Maggy the Frog. Okay. Circe and Mags. Circe and Mags. My old pal Circe and Mags. Okay, so Aegon comes in. The first time I watched this, I was like, wow. What a doting father. Aegon's PR team has gone to the scriptwriters and said, we need a refresh on Aegon. Let's make sure everyone knows that Aegon is a girl dad. Oh, wait. Okay.

Let's make sure that we know that Aegon is like, he's just a bro. He's just a guy who wants to be a good guy. And I was a little like, I was a little jarred. I was like, this feels like a slight retcon on a character all to make us feel bad for him when the kid, you know, they didn't spend a lot of time showing us Aegon the dad. They just had like a

two scenes and then that kid loses his head. Tough one. Yeah. Tough one. I felt a little like, I felt a little like, maybe we could have laid some track for this last season. Then I was just thinking more about it and going back over and rewatching the end of last season and you have to think about that moment when Aegon gets his crown. Oh, yeah. And the crowd cheers for him and he's like, oh, is this what affection feels like? Did you hear my shoulder just crack?

Good God. Okay. So eye doctor, one. Dentist, two. Oh, man. Some sort of joint doctor. I don't know what you call it. Orthopedist? Orthopedist. There you go. Number three. Otolaryngologist, number four. Okay. So he's like, oh, is this what? Yeah. Oh, is this what it means to be liked? Because he's, let's be clear, never gotten that from his moldering father and never got it from Allison. What?

What did she say? Don't be an imbecile? Are you an imbecile? When he says, do you love me? Imbecile? She says, yeah. She calls him an imbecile. Imbecile. The moment, the coronation call is a great one, but even like the carriage ride over. Sure, sure. Your father loved you. And he's like, he didn't. He had his entire life to change his mind and he never did. And she's like, I got a dagger, baby. She gives him the dagger. His response to that doesn't change.

because it could just be something that Allison took, which it is. But he's like, oh, okay. This tie to a father who just was not involved in my life. And so, listen, he had a giant Lego to build of old Valeria. I just pour over the plans. The stonemasons do all the work.

He was busy. My fellow Lego enthusiast, Viserys Targaryen. I miss him. Season one put a time that was this is the stuff.

it just makes sense to me that Aegon would like be demonstrably different this season because he's like I agree completely and like we'll get to the throne room scene but so like even here he's just sort of like he's just sort of like enervated by this like I'm in a position not just a power but like where I can bask in the affection that I've never received yeah from anyone in my life let's be clear Aegon's a piece of shit yes he did some terrible things that we are not forgiving him for yes Tom Glincarney is doing a great job of

Adding some nuance to that terrible person that he is. We are on the same page. It's a lot to kind of parse our feelings to Aegon, but I agree with you that ultimately this evolution really does track for me because even just the entrance and the stretch, he goes over, he makes a beeline toward the silver-headed child. And then he's like, oh, wow, he seems really interested in his kid. It's the second he clocks that it's Jaehaerys, not Jaehaerys, he's like,

be less interested, right? So it's not really like Aegon the devoted dad. It's Aegon the character, the king, who is now thinking, well, what is my legacy? And then specifically choosing to take Jaehaerys to the small council, saying like, he'll be king. He needs to start preparing. That's a great idea. But Ceres never did that for him. Exactly. Not once. No one ever taught him how to be king because he was never supposed to be king. Exactly. Like all the

confirmation you need by the way that this was not the plan kid uh reneara was in the small council uh pouring wine from the jump you know like which despite rene's uh ridicule in season one a position of honor to be by the king's side like that so yeah so he's like that to his kid he's like he's like i'm not gonna be building lego i'm gonna take my it's every day is take my boy twin to work day well no longer well sad um do you

Do you think he's going to be take your daughter to work day? I do not. I do not think that he will be bringing Ja'Hara to the small castle. Egan not knowing where Ja'Hara's lessons are, the like, and those are a... As is custom. And those are rare. And there's a way. This is so funny to me. Tongue-in-courney. Absolutely loved it. Maybe...

No, I'm sorry. Evan Darcy is MVP of this episode because of all they accomplish with only one line of dialogue. Yeah. But Tomlin Carney is like number two. I'm excited to talk about the throne room scene with the petitions. Yeah. Because both in this stretch, bringing J. Harris to the small council, thinking more seriously about what it means. He's failing and lacking in so many respects still. Yeah. But it's just the switch and the shift from

let me go, I have no wish to rule, no taste for duty, I'm not suited declaration to his brother, Aemond, who said, you'll get no argument from me in season one, episode nine, to...

I have thoughts on the sheep and the salt. Why don't we give him all his sheep? We'll just give you your sheep back. It's fine. They won't know. Oh, man. What did you make of... They won't know. His whispered they won't know to Otto. Incredible stuff. Okay, sorry. Otto's like, quick aside on what it means to be king, by the way. So funny. Genuinely great stuff. Speaking of what it means to be king, what did you make of Helena here asking, what if he does not want to be king?

About J. Harris. Right. Is this connected to this sense of what awaits? Like you. I don't want it. Is it connected to more of the, like, core gender politics of the show? Even, like, we go back to The Last Supper in episode eight. Yeah.

The way that Helena talked about marriage. A lot of the conversation in the wake of the episode was like, well, wait, why? From just the fandom, why did Helena actually make the choice that she made? Why did Helena give up the son, give up Aegon's heir? All of this stuff feels connected. I think, and it's similar to Alicent, because Alicent doesn't really care for her sons.

Sorry. I never cared for Job. Essentially is what Allison says. I never cared for Job. But she cares. Incredible. She's very tender about Helena. You don't think Allison cares for missing child Darren? Dude, I know we're not in the small castle scene yet, but when Otto mentioned Ormond and Old Town and the marshalling forces...

I was like, here it is. We're about to get it. He's going to say Darren aloud. And then he didn't, and my heart fucking sunk. Okay, let's talk really quickly about the Hightower Targaryen children. Because on HBO.com or whatever, when you have the family tree...

Yes. Alyson's children are Helena. We know her. She's married to her brother, Aegon. He's the king. He has another brother, Aemond. He has one eye. So one, two, three. Daeron. Yes. The fourth child. Yes. Who has a dragon. Tessarian. Is on the family tree. Shit!

They just have not said his name in the show, but he's there. Unlike Maylor, Helena's other kid, that kid does not exist. Missing from Blood and Cheese, which we will talk about. So I just need you guys to know that for two years, my Slack icon was Lyman Beesbury on the Ringer Slack. And over the last month and a half or whatever, it's been...

Darren question mark on the family tree because that is what is foremost in my mind. I'm holding that up. I'm holding that up. But yeah, I think that I think it's fair to extrapolate that Helena might feel more tenderly towards Jahara the same way that Allison feels more tenderly towards Helena.

that the mothers might favor their daughters. And then perhaps she's worried that Jaehaerys is just going to be another Aegon. Who, again, remember, she was like, oh, he's fine. He mostly ignores me unless he's drunk. Not great. Not ideal. Not ideal. Speaking of Helena. And MDD. MDD. MDD time. Mini dream dispatch. This one, foretelling blood and cheese. Steve, can we hear this? I'm afraid.

Don't be. There'd be fools to come with Vhagar protecting the city. Not the dragons. The rats. The queen is an enduring mystery. Is she not? By the way, it's the way he looks around for the rats before he says that. Everyone, the handmaidens, Vhagar, everyone looking around. That was so funny. Of course, this was something we were...

clocking and tracking throughout season one every time we saw a rat in the scene like and we thought we initially thought the beast beneath the boards was about blood and cheese instead it was about renees exploding through the dragon killing slaying legions of hundreds of small folk dude hundreds is generous you're right i'll join you in saying legions legions it is oh man okay so

How does this stack up to the other MDDs from Helena in season one? Which is, do you have a favorite? There's a beast beneath the boards. Dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread. He'll have to close one eye. Because that was the younger one. Okay. I think it's he'll have to close one eye.

and I. Yeah. Because that was the first one we were like, what? I know. That was actually just like a genuinely electric moment. That was great. That was so great. Right on the eve of Ament. We've talked a lot about like, who's paying attention? Like, what is the true nature of Helena's dreaming?

And who knows if she's a dreamer? We talked about Viserys. Why didn't her father, who was obsessed with this one dream he had? Once again, the Legos don't build themselves. And the idea of being a dreamer. And I so wanted it to be true, to be a dreamer myself. And I so wanted it to be true, to have a vibrant IG Reels presence with all of my Lego.

Well, you achieved one of those things. You love IG Reels. Most of the world's on TikTok. Mallory's on IG Reels. It's the best. Okay. My favorite tradition is you'll send me a TikTok and I'll be like, I saw this. On IG Reels. On Instagram. We had a ton of emails from listeners about Helena and her dreamers. I thought we might get a rapid fire multi-con there because you said ton of emails. You never know. You never know what awaits. She wanted legions of cons, Steve. Sorry. Okay.

So I went on a little, not a deep dive, mini dive on like, what's the haps here? What's the official word? Fia, I think it's Saban, right? Fia Saban or Saban? Fia Saban, Fia Saban, who plays Helena. Yeah.

in a sort of behind the scenes from season one, said this about her dreaming, the nature of her dreaming. She can feel the future and the past on a level inside her. She knows things. She can't always literally turn that into advice. So it's like images and flashes and stuff like that. Something we'll talk about a little bit more in the book spoiler section is on the inside the episode House of the Dragon Belt. Not the like the short one, but the long one they put on YouTube. Yep.

They talked about Helena's quarters because Helena is now living in the Queen's quarters where Alicent lived. And they talked about all the set deck that they put in there. And there's like cases of bugs, lots of bug stuff, cages of crickets, lots and lots of bugs everywhere. But also... Oh, man. Great stuff. There's scribble. There's like chalk drawings all over the wall. Chalk. And in her sketchbook, and again, we'll talk about this in the book spoiler section, but they're all like...

Like, images and we book readers knowing what's coming can decipher what some of those images mean. But if that's how it sort of presents itself to her, often in, like, sigils, so, like, animals, there's a lot of animals and crowns and stuff like that. So it's like, for example, this I can talk about. It's a Game of Thrones spoiler, folks. Yeah.

If you see like a stag with a crown, you're like, oh, Robert Baratheon. Right. But she just sees like a literal stag with a crown. What does this mean to this poor adult girl? Okay. The follow up question is dark twist on our favorite tradition, sigil spotting. Yeah, that's true.

The follow-up question is, who knows that she's a dreamer? And this is something that our pals at the History of Westeros podcast asked Ryan Condal. Incredible. And he said, someone is paying attention. Dun, dun, dun! Right? So someone is paying attention to Helena's dreaming. Who could it be? My number one dreamer.

suspect has to be Laris. Yeah. Who else is paying any attention to Helena? Yeah. He's also like, is that a foot? It's one of those drawings of... Is that the rat I work into? That was a good time in season one. That stretch of theory time. Great stuff. But yeah, what if Laris figures out that Helena's a dreamer? And Allison maybe is the only other person who's like paying any attention to Helena. So, okay. Okay.

this was something that I was really thinking back on in season one in the, you know, the fabled bug stretch. It is beyond our understanding. That's what Helena said. And Alison's response was, I suppose you're right. Some things just are. And so Alison's, not that this couldn't change, but at least what we've seen so far, the way that Alison receives these tendencies from Helena is like, I don't really get it. Yeah. I love you, but I don't really get you. Not like, do you want to talk about what's going on?

And it's just so, it is so deeply tragic because it does connect to this larger idea of what these characters who are a part of a, it's a story about a family that's tearing itself apart. Oh, God. Like, are never, Swayda Viserys never may be talking about this with his actual daughter. Like, it's so devastating to consider. And we have no reason to believe that he ever clocked it or discussed it with her. And it's like, what could have been different if maybe he had? It's just, it is really, like, deeply, deeply, deeply tragic. Oh.

On the is Laris paying attention to Helena front, I'm going to zoom ahead to my favorite theory. Okay. Unsubstantiated theory. We know that Laris has replaced all of Allison's attendees. Attendance. Yeah. Makes bath time tough. Yeah. Has he done that for Helena as well? Because we see there's this, a lot of people have pointed her out because she's just these incredibly striking eyebrows. Yeah.

She looks like Bella Baxter from Poor Things. Like, 100%. Yes. And that's just what that woman looks like. She's a model. Her name is Shane Stevenson. Yeah. Incredibly. Like, just magnetic. So distinctive. Like, more so than our favorite character, Talisa, last season, right? And so, like, if Laris has employed good old eyebrows... Yeah. And I say that with a compliment because I love her eyebrows. And also, like, she's the one in the room with blood and, like, just...

And vanishes. Pieces out? Vanishes. Deeply suspicious? Vanishes. Like, like she knows back alleyways. And then like a seven minute conversation unfolds and she does not appear again? Does not alert anyone? Okay, so eyebrows. So if Laris put eyebrows, and again, I say that with full compliment, I love her eyebrows. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If he, because she doesn't have a character name, I looked high and low.

I would call her by her name if I could, but if I could find it. Anyway, if Laris put eyebrows in Helena's room, then, you know, she might be like, hey, do you want to see her notebooks? She's drawn some stuff. She keeps mentioning. Would you like to see the walls? Oh my God.

Oh, poor Helena. Yeah. Laris, he's got, you know, he's got eyes everywhere. So that's just like based on nothing other than distinctive eyebrows. I love it. And that very suspicious like blood encounter. She just poofs. She's gone. Yeah. Now, I mean, maybe that's a normal human response. He looks away for a second and then she's just gone and she's nowhere. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm just saying. Unless she's like, there would simply never be a rat catcher up in these quarters at this hour. And she does say like, I'm not supposed to go up there. It's different rat catchers. Maybe she knows them all and she's like, something's up. But then she doesn't go tell anyone. Well, what I love about that is that like blood can't, doesn't know how to set a trap. She's like, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. He's never eaten a piece of manchego in his life. He doesn't know. Okay. It is time.

to talk about a genuinely crucial scene. This was my, at the time of my fucking life doing Talk the Thrones with you and Chris again. I sent you guys like 500 text messages after we finished. It was like, we've got to go back and record a game about Kristen and Allison to not, and I've spent the ensuing...

couple days like waiting to talk about this with you first of all because it is just like wonderful is it because i sent you a meme at 11 55 last night this killed me god that was one of the funniest things i've ever seen that was just absolutely exceptional wonderful stuff

Do you want to describe it for the people? So it's Oral and Fran warging. Warging. And then Allison also with like her eyes rolled back. They're all looking up as they did when they would warg. They would warg and their eyes would go white. Oh, man. And so it's like the overhead shot of Olivia Cooke with her eyes rolled back in her head. And it's like, ooh, Allison's a warg too? Yeah. Wow. Instead of warging into a wolf, she's connecting to a piece of human garbage, Kristen Cole. God, she's...

Darn it. Darn it. Okay, so this is, this is on the one hand, kind of like a holy shit moment because this relationship is not confirmed canon. So this is new.

Not even like really speculated on. No, not in the book, though. This was going to be what I asked you is like, was this just a pure, oh my God, what a shock moment for you? Or were you like, you know what? It felt like they were building toward this in season one because the God sees Dornish initial response from young Allison didn't like Kristen Cole. Handsome guy, piece of garbage, but handsome guy.

I mean, we're going to talk about the Rhaenyra parting of the ways in a moment here. But from the moment where Alicent stops Kristen from killing himself and he is then in her employ, in her camp, her sworn shield, team green all the way. There's the moment where he sees Larys staring at her and is like, he won't stop looking. Just like a jealousy. And one that feels just perfected.

perfectly connected to Kristen Cole as a jealous guy, but also like, and there's a possessive quality to it, but also it was like, oh, does he have a deeper feeling? And then of course there is the moment where Alison leans into him and is like, everything you feel for me.

As your queen. So there are some breadcrumbs laid here. Absolutely. But Kristen Cole, Alicent leaning back and digging her nails into the void of a chair as Kristen Cole goes down on her was new. And boy, was this something. We see Alicent before we realize it's Kristen. Did you immediately know it was him? Yes. Yeah.

P.S. Because I hate him. And I despise him. No, wait. Okay. So Lauren, we got an email from Lauren. And I should just say, Lauren's email, nothing in the email has to do with this. She just titled her email, Kristen Cole's new hat. Good strategy. Good strategy. And his new hat would be? Allison's vagina. Correct. Jimmy. Jimmy.

I do think there have been breadcrumbs. Olivia Cooke said in an interview that there were some other longing looks from season one that were cut. And we got several emails speculating. You asked for it. I did. You got it. This is a story in many ways about tempting things. Be careful what you wish for. Okay. So how long have they been doing it?

And a lot of people were speculating, well, where was Kristen Cole when Luke took Eamon's eye out? And Viserys asked him. He's like, excuse me, where were you? And Kristen being the piece of shit that he is, he's like, well, we never thought we had to guard princes from princes. He's an absolute piece of shit in that scene. And it's like, again, have you heard of Maegor the Cruel? But Olivia Cooke said that this...

The official word from Olivia Cooke is that this only started up after viscericide. This is honestly, you don't believe it? That feels right to me. Oh, yes. No, no. I believe it. But I would say three days after, like quickly. Great stuff. It's only been a few days, right? Remember the...

Tywin and Cersei discussing like the appropriate amount of time before a new marriage it's like a fortnight would be that would be fine Alicent's like as long as we can no longer smell the stench of his bloated rotting corpse let's get down my man okay but that takes a while to clear it's true and he's stuck because they were keeping him secret for a while and they don't have my soul like no no they don't

I think this is definitely post-Viserys, but the fact that it happened so quickly, you're right, because only a few days have passed. And we're already at this can't happen again. Yes. So they've been doing it. I mean, that doesn't last long, that pledge. Sure don't. That pledge. So a couple things here. On the Alicent front, I want to talk about Kristen's hypocrisy in a second, but on the Alicent front, I will say, we would like more for her than Kristen, but it is, I was like,

get it, girl. Oh, no, no, no. I want this for Alicent. Her relationship to sex in the story that we've seen so far. I would have loved this for Alicent from the jump. Yeah. She can actually find joy and pleasure. It's not, oh, but it's Chris and Cole. It's except she made Rhaenyra's life a living hell. This is the thing. For the same thing. Yes, the judgment. She endangered those boys. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, like, embarrassed, made their lives a living... Like,

All the shit that she did around Rhaenyra is absolutely consensual. I married a gay man. He's got a boyfriend. I have a really nice, really nice guy who's now dead thanks to Larys. Like, they had it...

An arrangement. A polycule. They were an American family, okay? They had just, like, figured it all out. They were hurting no one, and Allison decided to make it her and everyone else's problem. And Kristen's like, Rhaenyra, that spider, that slut, that whore, you know? Even before that, like, the way that Allison responds to the murmurs that Rhaenyra and Daemon had gone to the... Oh.

Hours of a pleasure to end. Like, the judgment? Yeah. We talked about that a lot because part of what made episode four so effective in season one was you do feel for Alicent because you see that Rhaenyra is taking her pleasure and Alicent is literally pinned down by duty. Yes. Is that what we're calling Viserys now? By the festering flesh sack embodiment of duty. Yeah. And, like,

They had a version of love in their marriage, but she wasn't finding pleasure in it in that way. And so for her to get that here is nice, but I agree with you. The hypocrisy from Alicent is palpable. And then speaking of hypocrisy. It's worse for Kristen. This is just like absolutely beyond the pale. Kristen and Rhaenyra sleep together in episode four.

Very dramatic sequence where he's, like, folding his white cloak, putting it aside, at war with himself. At war with himself over what to do. And then in episode five... And listen, I have a lot of... Like, there was all this conversation around the time where it's like, could Kristen even consent? Could he even say no in that circumstance? And I agree with, like, plenty of that. Absolutely. There's a fucked up situation for Kristen to find himself in. And then...

And in the next episode, he goes to Rhaenyra in the wee hours of the morning. He's like, you're up too. Got a pitch for you. Oranges. Oranges. Spices. Leave your name, your crown, your birthright, your family, and your kingdom behind and come marry me across the narrow sea. And when she's like, I am the crown, my guy, but we can keep fucking, he...

wails and screams and cries and says, I took an oath as a knight of your king's guard, an oath of chastity. I've broken it. I've soiled my white cloak. It is the only thing I have to my fucking name. And then he's going down on Alice, the dowager queen. She says we shouldn't do this again. And he's like, I'll be back tonight. Can you just pin this white cloak on in the meantime? Can you just hook this on me? Thanks. This piece of shit.

And Kristen believes, and I just need this to be underlined, Kristen believes that every woman is an image of the mother to be spoken of with reverence. One of the best moments of season one and my least favorite episode of season one because that line is iconic. And of course, the line that leads to that reply is Aemond recounting Aegon's gifting him this first trip to the Street of Silk. And then he's like, said time to get it wet.

And Thrones, to be very clear. Yeah. Kristen is wearing that fucking hat throughout the whole thing. Great stuff. Alison and Kristen, that conversation where he calls Rhaenyra a spoiled cunt. Yeah. And then Alison looks at him and he goes, that was beneath me, your grace. I apologize. And she says, I have to believe.

But in the end, honor and decency will prevail. We need to hew to that and to each other. But like... Indeed. Honor and decency. They are hewing to each other. We're better than Rhaenyra. Right. We're more pious. Yeah. You know, we would never sully ourselves and sully our names. And here we are, season two, episode one. Again, I want Alicent to... Same. Have whatever she wants sexually. Same. It's the hypocrisy. Yeah.

This is making me, absolutely, this is what she says about Rhaenyra. She expects everyone in the Red Keep to deny the truth our eyes can plainly see. And the king, her father, he knows. Of course he knows. Or did once, but has convinced himself otherwise. He'll do not but make excuses for her. The princess Rhaenyra is brazen, relentless. Oh no, that's when Cole says the princess Rhaenyra is brazen, relentless. Spider. He loves calling her a spider. We'll do it again in this episode. Let it go, Kristen. Anyway, I just- Very fragile ego on that guy. I-

have a lot of empathy for alicent i have very little empathy for kristin cole and this just boiled my blood um but again i like i'm like i i'm pro sex i want alicent to have this same same and again dramatically it's it's incredibly rich um should we go the small council chamber should we follow alicent and kristin into this chamber together

One last thing. Her putting the cloak back on him. By the way. Yes. Yeah. Helena has... Like a clip-on tie. Yeah. Little hooks. I liked it. Helena has moved into Alison's room. That means Alison has moved into Rhaenyra's room. Yeah. Kristen's like, I've been here before. We're going to talk about that a little. I mean, when they fuck in the bed. Yes. It's not just...

It's the same bed. I looked, I went back and looked because remember when Alicent was sleeping in an Emma's bed, Emma's bed where she. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Like miscarried, like died essentially. And they like couldn't get Alicent a new bed. Yep. I have notes again that she has moved into Rhaenyra's room and she's sleeping in, it's the same headboard bedpost. It's the exact same bed. They needed Tyrion Lannister at this time. Cause like the moment he got to the,

The Tower of the Hand. He was like, Ned Stark slept on this? Get me out of here. Not a knight. Not a one. Not a one. But it made me think about Alicent. In terms of Alicent dressing someone she cares for in that room, she dresses Rhaenyra in season one, episode one. That's right. Before she's named the heir in that room. So that people can then...

Do obeisance. I'm so sorry. You gave me so many opportunities. Say it. Say it. Do obeisance. Obeisance. Okay. What a great word. All right. Joe. Small council. We're following Allison and Kristen into the small council chamber. Do you think anyone's going to notice that we're all arriving together?

This is a literal text message I got from our friend Kim Renfro when she watched the screeners. Shout out, Kim. The best. Love Kim. The best. She says, do you think Otto smelled Allison on Kristen when they walked in? And when you rewatch that scene with that in your head, it's like,

I believe he is quaffing something. So we briefly talked about, you made a reference on Talk the Thrones to this. It was an important thing to get on the record on night one. The Midnight Boys had A8.

and riveting discussion about post-coital hygiene. It's difficult for me in moments like this not to think of our dearly departed Roz and her vag bowl. You know, a little splash after her dalliance with Pycelle. Okay. I noticed this as well. Like, they're changing, but Kristen's not like... He doesn't give a rinse. Let me just rinse. Just a rinse. Just a rinse.

Listerine. Anyone have any gum? They have no Lysol or Listerine. But he could at least splash some water. Yeah. Or like spray some perfume to try to like mask it. Everybody in Westeros smells, right? Yeah, but... But the royals, you know, again, like there's a bath in this episode. A lot of bath time in general. But Kristen, he's in the armor. I bet you there's like a pretty...

rank-ripe aroma coming from inside the shell. I don't know. I don't know if Otto would clock it, but it does seem to be the collective response that he's like... Because, yeah, you weren't... You didn't think that Otto had. No, though after he mentioned it, I was looking for it. He's definitely like... Yeah. Though I just in real time read that as Otto's like...

Why can't people show up on time for my meetings? Also a strong possibility. Just because, like, Kristen is Allison's sworn shield. So the fact that they would be together is actually not remarkable. Correct. But if they've got, like, tousled hair and... A special aroma? Other things? A sheen? All right. Oh, man. Okay. So I have a question for you, and it's an important one. And I want you to...

Consider it in a way that is worthy of Beesbury's memory. Would you, a member of the Green Council, keep the small balls on the council table after Kristen Cole basically just pushed Lyman's head down? The ball went through his temple like a butter knife. Like a knife through butter, yeah. Through a cantaloupe that had been around.

Out in the sun too long. Wouldn't you just get these out of here? First of all, please do not besmirch my guy, Lime and Beesberry, by comparing his head to an overripe cantaloupe. Genuinely one of the best parts about rewatching season one. Everyone with bees is just something to cherish and adore. But that end stretch where he's like chiming in a few minutes late on everything and they're just so mean to him. But then when the moment counts, he gets up and he's like, I...

Did you notice in the, I'm sure you did. You notice everything. In the tapestry in the opening credits. Love it. They have sigils listed on like each side, team green, team black. Yeah. Beesbury's firmly on team black because let's be clear. Oh, yeah. Lyman may be dead, but that's not the end of House Beesbury. No, it's not.

Not only would I don't think they should have small balls on their table. I think maybe we should have them on Talk the Thrones. Oh, yeah. Actually, Dave Gonzalez is like, why don't you guys have the small council balls? I was like, what do you mean? He's like, oh, I'm sorry. I live in Colorado where like gemstone balls are like diamond.

A dime on the street corner. He offered to get us some balls. He'll ship them over? Ship them from Colorado. I love it. Yeah. Who is going to be the first one to suffer some sort of grievous injury on set? And, okay, well, we know the answer. It's me. What episode?

Yeah, I gave you until episode four before you injure yourself. But it might be that they arrived in episode three, so I didn't last very long. It's probably too late for them to get here for episode two. Let's be real. You're going to slip on your dropped chapstick or an errant Kleenex that you've left on the floor, and then it's all over. I need everybody to know quickly what true friendship is. Before we record it, I dropped my chapstick open. Once in a bad way.

to the bathroom floor at the office. That's going to be burned later. Because it rolled. It actually rolled all the way across the floor under the sink. And I was actually in like a state of panic because you were having a full blow. I was like, I can't do the pot. Steve was like, who can go on a run to like a Walgreens or something? Yeah. Joanna had a spare chapstick and she gave it to me. And now we have matching chapsticks. And I find that charming. All right.

Oh, boy. Should we do a quick small council lineup refresher? Refresh us, please. Okay. Hand of the King on Ohio Tower. I've yelled at him lots. Jasper Ironrod Wilds. For the thickness of his member. Master of laws. Or the rigidity of his legal stance, either. This is canon. Thank you for keeping Beesbury alive. Do you think that Jasper gave himself that nickname, Ironrod? I think he did. Okay. Without question. Grand Maester Orwell. Yep. Pretty good dude.

All things considered. Of all the people on the council, I like him most. Tylan Lannister. Incredible scene for Tylan. Just an incredible scene for Tylan. No time for amusements, Tylan. All right. So Tylan Lannister, Master of Coin, his brother Jason tried to propose to Rhaenyra and he's Lord of Casterly Rock right now. Okay. Alicent, the Dowager Queen. We shouldn't really have a seat, but I support her having a seat, but I'm just saying.

That's not a seat that's usually given. And then Lord Commander Kristen Cole watching over. Yep. And then Aemon. Aemon shows up and Allison's like, please leave. Why are you here? You were not invited. You don't have a ball. What are you doing here? They don't yet have.

Master of ships. Some discussion in this episode about this very thing. No Master of Whispers either. And that's something that people get confused by because at this point in the book, is Larys Master of Whispers? I think he is. And in the show, he's just the Lord Confessor. Confessor. Yeah. He's like, let me tell you about all the people who I killed because they betrayed us. They don't have a Master of Whispers right now. Aegon is too distracted by his darling little son, Jaehaerys. Mm-hmm.

As we repeatedly mentioned in the preview pod, six in the book, only four in the show, according to Condal. Wow. Yeah. Part of why Maylor apparently couldn't make it. Does that make it... Because if you recall in our preview pods, Mallory's like, children die all the time. No, I was just... I was six years old. Parsing with the rich life. Parsing, like, the word baby a little bit. I'm like, he's six. If he's four, is he a baby? I don't know. He was...

walking he goes to school he's got his customs that could be interrupted so so so for the record i'm not saying it's okay to kill a four-year-old that is not what i'm saying that is not what i'm saying a foul act a vile act but like isn't a baby like one that's all

I agree six is a little too old to say baby, but I've heard, like, certain people refer to, like... Four-year-olds as babies? Yeah. Okay. Sure. I don't have children.

As I'm sure is quite apparent. Right now he's still your baby. That's true. He is my beautiful baby boy. Okay. So Aegon, speaking of beautiful baby boys, just wants to bring Jaehaerys here in theory to train him to be king, but really just so they can fuck around. Jaehaerys steals Tyland's little small ball. He's playing with him. Tyland's pissed. Aegon's like, it's the heir to the Iron Throne bothering you. The look. Jefferson Hall. Dude, amazing scene. The look.

When he suggests, when Egon suggests the pony ride and Tylan's like, uh, yeah. And he's like. Seriously. There was just that little moment of venom there. Like, oh no, I actually am in control. Don't forget to free me a second. That was a Joffrey. Oh yes. Yeah. Oh yes. No time for amusements. Tylan's.

Steve, we need to add that to the soundboard so that every time we're running along, you just come in with no time for amusement. Yeah, if we do a chapstick, a lip balm. It's great news. When Steve's looking at the runtime later and he's like, what can I cut? It's just like 45 seconds on chapstick. And now 10 more. We're talking about it again. The part where they touched their chapsticks to each other.

No free ads. No free ads. Yeah, blur out the brand. Yeah, blur out the brand. So they're going through potential allies. Yeah.

Aemon and Kristen later will have their map, which they're using coins on, real, like, rich kid stuff from Aemon. Let's just use my money to mark. But Otto has his... He's pulled in the dry erase board. Okay. They spent a lot of time on this on the House of Dragons build video, where the woman who made it, she was like, I wanted this on the table. Let's be clear. I wanted this...

on the table. Ryan Condal was saying, too many of our maps are down on the table. I don't feel you get the full scope. He's like, I kind of wanted more of like a World War II sort of like war map on the wall so people get a better sense of the geography. And it's true because like the painted table, as cool as it is, I don't think looking at it, you get a great sense of the geography. No, your main marker for the geography is you're like, right, which castle did Stamford

stannis and melisandre fuck on top of yeah okay now i have my bearings that's it um but yeah it's supposed to be made of ivory sections of ivory so like um why don't can we get a whiteboard made of not of ivory um i don't believe in that yeah but in like fake ivory is mother of pearl something we can do is that

Sure. Probably that's bad, too. Okay, never mind. Let's just stick with the regular track. We'll just use Google Docs. So, imagine how much ivory we would need for your show notes. Oh, man. Oh, my goodness. We wouldn't. Panels upon panels. We never would. So, they're going through the rosters here, right? Who has aligned with which side? Choose a side. No reply from Rhaenyra. Shocker. It's not going well. This effort to repair the realm...

thwarted, uh, iron rod lippy.

Too much feedback in this scene. An apology for her dead son. Let's just remind everyone that in season one, episode nine, Allison said to Iron Rod, one more word and I will have you removed from this chamber and sent to the wall. Seemed like he really heeded that, got the message. Allison, you gotta follow through on your threats or else they're just empty. Yeah. Words are wind. Words are wind. Yeah, you think he should just be like meeting up with

Craig's kin up there. That guy with the bowl cut. Right in the winch. Yeah. Boy, that haircut. Sheesh. Okay. Rapid fire through. Remember when Tyrion said Janos lent to the law? Remember Janos' final moments? Man. Game of Thrones. Sam saying that he found Janos in a puddle of his own making was one of my favorite moments. Truly great stuff. Everybody laughed. They all chuckled. Okay. No reply from the Valor in the North. We know why. Jace got him. Jace. Cunts. Sorry.

That's a quote. I don't use that word. Oh, man. Before we did talk to Thrones, Chris was like, is it okay to say this for like quoting? And then I think he maybe said it once and we've definitely said it like 47 times. No, but he was like, is it better? Okay, Chris said, is it better if I say cunts with air quotes? Yeah. And you and I were both like, that's worse. That's way worse. Keep the fingers out of it. That's way worse. They think they have Storm's End. Okay. Not a surprise to us after what we saw with Boros at the end, but

Aemond, Flores, betrothed. We can't overstate what a colossal loss this is for the Blacks. And this was a big conversation for us at the end of season one. Rhaenyra not tending to, squandering the alliances that were taken for granted. The Baratheon are kin to Rhaenys. Rhaenys is on Rhaenyra's side. When Rhaenyra went on her engagement tour, she made enemies of a lot of people.

Including Boris Baratheon, who can't read, I think. Anyway. In the books. Anyway. Jason Lannister, amassing forces in the West, as you noted. Golden Tooth gets a shout out here. So this is a... The fact that this was specifically mentioned felt intentional. Key position. This is the easternmost point of the Westerlands. So it's like between the Westerlands and the Riverlands. This is a key strategic position. But also, when we were breaking down the trailers, we're like, what is this...

other light stone tan structure that doesn't seem to be the other thing that we talked about a lot in those trailer breakdowns. This is it. Hearing it here, I was like, oh, that's got to be what that is. That was something we thought it might be. You were on the golden tooth beat early. There were Lannister soldiers around. Ormond, marshalling forces from Oldtown as mentioned. I have to hope and pray that while Darren couldn't rate a mention here, our guy Freddie Fox, Gawain Hightower, will be

With Ormond, when we... Didn't he say he was sallying forth? How long does it take for one to sally? Great question. Great question. Forth or otherwise. Dalton Greyjoy. The Red Kraken. The Red Kraken. Wonderful stuff. I'm sure this will be fine. What could go wrong? And then Aegon wants to fly to Riverrun. And we would just be remiss now and always if we did not take a quick opportunity to mention that at this moment, the Tullys of Riverrun, Grover, Elmo...

Kermit, come on in, eventually. These characters are named after Muppets. Muppets. And they're hoping that they'll do obeisance. Is that what you're saying? That's a big word for Elmo. Wonderful stuff. Obeisance, yeah. Literally Grover, Elmo, and Kermit. Sensational. George. The best. Really on one. Okay. So, Jo.

We didn't love episode nine of season one, but we did like the fissures inside of the Green Council. Seeing the tension inside of one faction. That is very apparent here as well. Nobody's on the same page. They're bickering over mishandling Rhaenyra. They're arguing over the blockade's impact on King's Landing. Aegon now wishes that they had killed Rhaenyra.

And that was like basically the only thing that the great race to find Aegon in the penultimate episode hinged on, which was Alison getting the opportunity to say to him first, don't kill her.

The side eye that Otto casts at Alicent, which will be the part of what prompts their conversation later about how to get along in front of other people. He's like, it's too late. We must play the board before us. And then as we talked about, Alicent doesn't want Aemond here, but Aegon does. Aemond is my closest blood and our best sword. I welcome him. I wanted to ask you how you... He's my hound. Loyal. Loyal. How...

this reception for Amon struck you because Alicent makes a remark at the table about it, right? Retribution for the death of her son and kind of glares over at Amon. But...

And broadly, there's like kind of a hand wave inside of Team Green. Otto says errors were made. That's how he sums this up. Elsewhere, the Capriza used, which is just insane. In Fire and Blood, here's the passage. Yeah. Amen Targaryen, who would henceforth be known as Amen the Kinslayer, to his foes, a curse is rough.

no man, this is a curse, I've heard. Returned to King's Landing, having won the support of Storm's End for his brother Aegon and the undying enmity of Queen Rhaenyra. If he thought to receive a hero's welcome, he was disappointed. Queen Alicent went pale when she heard what he had done, crying, mother have mercy on us all. Nor was Ser Otto pleased. You only lost one eye, he is reported to have said. How could you be so blind? Now, we

We talk all the time about the unreliable narrator nature of Fire and Blood. So, like, there was no reason to expect that it would go exactly this way. But Ewan Mitchell, in an interview to Entertainment Weekly, had said...

uh, Amon's going to come back and he has a choice. He can either look the fool or he can pretend that he meant to do this, that it was an intentional, um, active violence or aggression or whatever. And he implied in that, in that interview that like he would, he would be. So I actually wonder, it's either something that we're going to see later or,

Or if there was a scene that was cut. Interesting. You know, maybe there was a scene that was cut where we got the actual fallout with like Alicent and Otto and Eamon. But yeah, here it seems like there's this line later from your favorite character, Masaria, who says... Frankly, how dare you? To Damon...

You're like, Maegor the Cruel I'll own. Masaria. No. Masaria says to Daemon, you only blame me. Well, she doesn't say it like that, but, you know. She says, you only blame me because your true enemies are out of reach. And this is just like, this is what's true. This is what Daemon is doing when he's like, Radius, it's your fault that this happened. It's Rhaenyra's fault because she's not here, you know, casting about for people to blame. Right.

And then, meanwhile, on Team Green, everyone, like, that small council scene is such a feast because Allison's, like, passive-aggressive comment, look at Eamon. And Otto's, like, mistakes were made in the aftermath and looks at Allison. You know, we're just, like, casting blame around wherever we can because we can't actually, like, reach. And this is these fissures. Yeah.

I want to do a signs and portents thing. Fissures and fragments inside of these very, Team Black and Team Green is part of the story that we're going to see going forward. Because yes, we're in a civil war inside of a family. But inside those factions are further fracturing. And that's the most interesting part, ultimately. If everybody in Team Green and Team Black is aligned and they're just battling each other, they're just at odds with each other, that's not necessarily that dramatically compelling. Right.

When they're at war with each other and at war with themselves and we get these delicious foils and dark mirrors or direct mirrors of each other, then that's riveting. So Amon, in this stretch, talking about Harrenhal, talking about how crucial the Riverlands are, not just making the same pitch that Daemon made back in the season one finale and continues to make, but literally using the same language. Toehold. We got that from Daemon in the finale. Daemon uses it again in this episode. Amon says it here.

They've been circling each other. Oh, man. I love this. In season one, episode eight in the throne room when they're sort of like looking at each other and it's like pretty sure Damon's like, did you steal my look?

I'm the Legolas hair guy. Why do you think you're also the Legolas hair guy? I feel like Amand could just reply, you had a lot of different wigs since he saw one. It's hard to keep track. You don't get to just claim this one. You just keep changing your hair. It's hard to keep track. Dragon Moth. Yes. We love Dragon Moth. Another tie, of course, but not just between...

Aemond and Daemon. This is really an Aegon and Aemond tied to Daemon because, like, the dudes want to go to war. That's really the key. Absolutely. Alicent is in the Rhaenyra position in this episode. We heard in the finale Rhaenyra really cautioning restraints we already talked about. Alicent is the one here who says...

And Rhaenyra has dragons as well. It's that hold the other minister like the other side can do magic too idea, right? And mine are bigger. Yeah, I have some questions about Aegon saying mine are bigger. Like, yeah, bigger is bigger. Yes, but if I were Aegon, I'd be putting a little more stock into the numbers that the other side has. But we love a dragon math. Yeah, so the dragon math scenario on Team Green is that they have Sunfire, which is Aegon's dragon.

Helena has a dragon, but we've yet to see it. And we don't think we're ever going to see Dreamfire because Helena is quite traumatized from blood and cheese, right? So, Vhagar. Vhagar. Huge. And Darren. I mean...

This is part of why Tessarian and Darren not being in the story is just genuinely so confounding. Without getting into any of the particulars, like a whole dragon being off the board is a big deal. It's really tied their hands any time that they talk about dragon math on Team Green for them not to say, oh, and we have another dragon. Yeah. Yes. Let's do the blue queen. Somewhere. And in a different part of

the world right now where you could have then that like strength another toehold another toehold it's very strange I did notice just while we're doing dragon math here that well I thought I noticed not sure if this is confirmed but it seemed under the beds under the twins beds that they had the dragon egg offense this is another frantic text we received from Mallory I forgot

It did. The egg in the cradle is a Targ family tradition, but it did look like they still had the furnaces. Now, the kids being younger, I guess, could align with this, but does that mean that Charikos and Morgul aren't... Probably. ...in the story? Probably. All right.

Okay, so Alyson's like, hey, Kristen, you're good for a lot of things. Yeah. But in this moment, can you please stop my idiot son from being such an idiot? Let's use that tongue to do some talking, mind guy. And like, Kristen, Aegon is so easily pushed and pulled in one direction or another. And so Kristen using like the old, you're the king, you can't go. Yeah, this is what Aldo did to Viserys when he wanted him to not go to Dragonstone. Yeah. It's pretty funny. Larys?

Take it away. Love of my life. Thrilled for you. Absolute piece of shit. Thrilled for you. Couple of fascinating scenes of Laris just overtly manipulating other people in this episode. So he's waiting for Allison after the small council. Dude, your handmaiden said you were indisposed. Your handmaiden said that Kristen was bringing you to climax. I looked for you at the tractor.

Oh my God, that made me laugh so hard when I saw the notes. Anyway, so Allison, already at the end of last season, Allison was like, I would rather not with this. Yeah, it's a lot. And now he knows that he's been very much replaced by... He knows about Kristen. Definitely. 100%. No doubt. Absolutely. So he says...

That he's gotten rid of all the people in the household who were spies. They've rooted out the spies. They've gotten rid of them. And that means my friend and yours, Talia. R.I.P.

who, if our listeners can't remember, was a red-headed serving woman who was Massaria's agent inside the castle. Yes. And also Miguel Sapochnik's wife. Yes. And we're pretty sure it was only in the show so that Miguel Sapochnik's wife could be in the show. Anyway, she's killed off screen along with Hobart Hightower. Tough, tough. By Talia. By Talia. Yeah.

And Laris has gone ahead and replaced every single one of Alicent's, you know, people with his own people. Yep. Great. Yeah. Terrifying. She then has to immediately dismiss them all from bathing her. Yes. Now, I would not want Laris's spies bathing me either, but it does, it raises a couple things. One, on the thematic front, it just heightens again how alone Alicent is. Like, she has...

for some stuff. But, you know, when Viserys... Her vague bug daughter. Sweet Helena. Yeah. When Viserys sent all of his bathing assistants away, Alicent was there to tend to him. Even though that was probably not how she would have ideally been spending her time, right? Right. Sore-dabbing.

Nobody's here to help Alicent. And, you know, it makes us think of that connected to Laris, that really unvarnished moment of truth where she was like, in all of King's Landing, is there no one to take my side? This is after her dad had been sent away. And even now, her dad's back and her dad is, what, undermining her at that table of men?

mouth okay we got this interesting email from alex because chris chris is really chris is really focused on the scrubbing of the shoulder yeah and we talked about this we had our you were talking about the viserys callback i was talking about laris replacing all their handmaids but um i really like this email from alex who said uh when alice began obsessively cleaning her arm it took me back to season one and her picking her nails and those interactions then with otto and his disappointment in her the repetitive cleaning made me think

All of this time, Allison has been masking her anxiety, OCD, or whatever Westerosi doctors would call it, and doing so in a way her father couldn't tell. She used to pick at her fingers until they bled. Yeah. As like a manifestation of her anxiety. And then when he would see it, he would be like, you're the most comely girl at court. Why do you destroy yourself? Instead of being like, are you okay? Right. And so this is like a, her like,

I'm sure, I'm actually very confident she did that to her entire body, but, like, the, like, repetitive scrubbing, the, like... I think we got another email from... We did. We got another from a listener who did a Lady Macbeth sort of out-out damn spot sort of comp, for sure. But I like that callback to the nails. And this is, like... It's a great call. ...compulsive Allison behavior. That's a great call. Great email. From Allison to Rhaenyra? Yeah. Rhaenyra finds... The story would say...

The cloak of her dead son and the proof that, in fact, Lucerys is dead. My read on it is we saw poor Erex's shredded, gnarled wing. So sad. And I wept. I wept. It was tough. Joe, a moment, quickly. Yeah. Just a congratulations to your co-host and our pal, Dave Gonzalez, because we got a dragon dismount. Oh, my God. I mean, you guys are going to talk about this on trial. We got two. Rainey's also gets off at the dragon dock. Yeah.

They have like a docking scenario. Yeah. Is this, are you happy this is here?

I mean, it wasn't the best visual effect we've ever seen on the show. Though the behind the scenes did show them doing this practically with a stunt woman. So like they did, you know, try to make it look as real as possible. Not our best visual effect, but like, yeah, Dave, if you guys aren't, if you're listening to this and you're not trial by content listeners, Dave was harping on this all season one where he was like, they'd show them landing and then they would cut away and then the person would be on the ground. He's like, show me a dragon dismount you cowards. We did see, um, Daenerys do this. Um,

on Thrones, she sort of did a walk down a leg or whatever. This was a leaping dismount. But she's in Ares. Yeah, absolutely. This is very sad because not only does Rhaenyra now know that her kid is dead and she's weeping, but Syrax cries out. Our listener Ian was asking if Syrax is Arax's mother.

This is a really fun theory. There's no confirmation one way or another, but it is plausible. Cyrax had a clutch of eggs. Clutch of eggs. Yeah. So it's definitely possible.

And even if that's not the case, which I like to think about that possibility, even if it's not the case, it's like one more moment where that connection between Dragon and Rider, between Rhaenyra and Syrax, and more broadly Dragon and Rider is just reinforced for us. We think back to the stillbirth, the cuts from Rhaenyra crying to Syrax.

But also season one, episode one at her mother's funeral. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When Sarek's is there. Dracarys and Sarek's. Dracarys. Dracarys. Very dramatic. Dracarys. Yeah. That was a dramatic circumstance. Okay, Jo. Egg on the magnanimous. We'll see you now. Do you know what magnanimous means? Nobody knows what magnanimous means. Well, I do. That's so funny.

We did get an email from listener Brad who attached a screenshot of the Google Trends on Magnanimous and there was a huge spike in the Google search for what Magnanimous meant after this episode, which is great. Great stuff. Are you digging Agon's Bros?

The Heralds? Okay. This is what we need when we come into the studio. We need, like, the Heralds. Like, Steve, can you just start on the end? We need Steve and John and Arjuna to, like, follow us in and just say titles, titles, titles. Yeah. So, I love that you called out the Eamon-Damon parallel of literally saying the same word, the toehold in Harrenhal. Yeah.

the two entrances of the monarchs because we get this Aegon entrance with his bros, which we'll talk about in a second. Titles, titles, titles. Rhaenyra gets the same...

Same titles, titles, titles. Yes. When she walks in. Yes. But she's just like storming in and this is when she's about to say her one line. But like the camera follows her in to, you know, the pain stable and the council and stuff like that. But I just like, I love the contrast of the two. There's a herald like saying, you know, Lady of the Rhoynar, like all this sort of stuff. The other contrast that really struck me is, of course, like when we last saw Targaryen King.

walking into the throne room it's viserys's long walk and it is striking like the speed and vigor with which agon makes his way toward the throne walking right past the statue of viserys the peaceful as his legacy crumbles in real time like that was little things like that the show does really well i think do you have rose yes yes yes yes martin rain uh-huh yeah

You love a rain? We clocked that sigil in the trailer. Oh, yeah. That was fun. The rain of Castamere. Red line. Martin Rain. Good old Marty. Leon Estermont. Leo. The Estermont sigil is a turtle. Great stuff. This is one of George R.R. Martin's favorite sigils, is the Estermont sigil. It's great. And Eddard Waters, a bastard. How progressive. Yeah.

Nobody in this family has ever had a note about a bastard being in court. So...

Marty, Leo, and Eddie. Yeah, I love it. Okay, this is the trio of bros. We see them later drinking around the throne with him. But not the lads. That's a different group of characters in the story. I've decided we could call them any number of things. Yeah, what do you got? I want to go with Pussy Posse. I love it. And Steve, our producer, suggested that I explain to our listeners who may not be

I don't know. Is this a... Oh. I don't know. The way that makes me feel old. It might be slightly generational. Wow. But to be clear, Pussy Posse is what Leonardo DiCaprio and his pals, his other actor friends in their youth called themselves. That's right. Nancy Jo Sales wrote a great, one of the best articles of all time about the Pussy Posse. Again, this is not a word that I love to throw around, but it's just iconic in pop culture that Leonardo DiCaprio in his youth... It's great stuff.

Along with Tobey Maguire, among other people, call themselves the Pussy Posse. So this feels like Aegon's Pussy Posse. Marty, Leo, and Eddie. I have no notes. Great. On the moniker front. Yeah. Do you have any alts that you'd like to throw out for Aegon the Magnanimous, Aegon the Dragonheart, Aegon the Dragoncock? I did not have my ivory whiteboard to brainstorm. I just want to toss out for consideration for the room.

egg on the window anchor. The alliteration of it is just immediately appealing to me. I do like it. Okay. Man. Okay. So he makes his way to the throne. He's got the conqueror's crown on. It's that idea from Fire and Blood. And although we talked about last year. Every symbol of legitimacy belongs to him. The next line also is like, plus he's a dude and that made him qualified in most people's eyes. Not ideal. Yeah. Not ideal. Great. He hears some petitions.

I loved this scene. This was great. Top to bottom. Okay.

What percentage of your response was, wait, could Aegon be good at this? Like, does he have the capacity to maybe be good at this? And what percentage of your response was, why does this dipshit not know to say out loud, I intend to burn the blockade? And also, wait, do people, is word going to travel if I try to just make one exception? But like, the way he interacts with, and then like, Larys will invoke this to kind of manipulate him in the next scene, but-

They won't know. They won't know. It's a podcast for one. They won't know. Even though we know it's a tactic from Lyra, he is right, actually, to note that Aegon has a touch with the small folk. Well, again, this stems from that validation he got from the coronation. And he wants to be magnanimous so that this shepherd or this smithy or this guy with salt will...

Think of him as a good guy. Gerard. Hugh.

One of the things that when we over kind of overhear when Blood and She's are walking through the throne room later and Aegon and the Pussy Posse are getting wasted. One of the things. Gotta catch on. There's the little like, this is when they're talking about the nicknames, but then which would you, which would your grace prefer to be loved or feared? And he says, I need to be both. Why not both? My mother and grandsire mind me like some helpless duckling. I need to be both. Like, it of course makes us think of the Daenerys and Viserys conversation about like, you know, nobody ever gave me

Which she got in there. So, yeah. I think that there is one learning in real time moment that we have, though, because he says all this stuff and Otto is just like, let me walk up the stairs and just tell you what it is. You can't give the sheep back. You need them for your dragons. But then at the end...

And when he says something, having learned from Otto that when the king speaks, everyone listens, he's like, he's in the middle of something. He sees his grandfather coming up the stairs to tell him he can't do this thing. Implements that feedback in real time. Yeah, and then he just sort of like says, makes a proclamation that makes Otto turn right back around and be like, well, I guess I got to give him this one. You know? Yep. Fucks me. Some coin. Yeah.

For the smiths. For their scorpions. A request from Hugh. Just a guy. Just a guy being a smith, I think. Anything else on this scene, Jo? No. Back to Laris then. Pulls Aegon. Yeah. Compliments him. Here's how you remind me in a good way of Viserys before I tell you how you remind me of Viserys in a bad way. Also, by the way, the old king, he hares your dad's hand.

Okay. You don't have to. The use of the word pliable was just chef's kiss delicious from Lyris here. You love Lyris. As you know, I do love Lyris. I think he's a wonderful character. Every now and then in season one, especially the early moments with Lyris, I was like, is this too... Oh, here's this story's little finger. Scheme, scheme, yeah. And just like, shouldn't the characters feel how they're being manipulated by him? But...

Something like this here, like you resent the fact that your father didn't take you seriously. Like, don't let the people who led him astray do the same to you is perfection. Yeah. Plus, like, you get to pick who your hand is. You don't have to just take who your dad's hand was. Yeah. Don't let your grandpappy tell you what to do.

Oh, Gran. Speaking of Grandpappy, Alison Donato. Yes. Otto, who is being dunked on by Laris here when in episode nine of last season, Laris is like... Yeah, we talked about this in Talk of the Thrones. Laris is just playing all angles all at once all the time.

Yeah. He doesn't, he's not switching sides. He's just playing all sides all the time. Every door open. Yeah. Every door open. Okay. And seeing Alicent close a door on him is he's like,

He wanders directly from there to the throne room, essentially. Yes. So, yeah. And we should mention, because I don't think we have yet, we see cheese in the background multiple times in this episode. Passing by the door, the open door of the throne room, was the one that gave me the biggest chill. That was like, whew. Family time. Alison Tenado, just sitting at dad's table reading his letters.

Oh, am I not supposed to read your email when you're not in the room, Mallory? This is so funny to me. Don't leave your laptop unattended then. That was genuinely my thought. I was like, I feel like I would put this shit away. Yeah. Right? In a lockbox. Yeah. So Allison is annoyed that dad kept her waiting. And she has some notes on how things have been going for them, which is a series long proposition at this point. Yes. What did you make of the scene?

When she says that he's cutting her legs out in front of a table of men was the most overt fuck the patriarchy, I think, moment of the episode that I quite like. But also, if you underline my voice, both those boys will grow deaf to it. And he sort of like, he hears her. He's like, I hadn't seen it that way. Okay. Okay.

However, they both have a completely incorrect read of these boys. Totally. Right? Totally. Yeah. Aemon fiercely loyal? Absolutely not. Aemon and Kristen just like having their own little bro sesh. Yeah. And again, when they were having a bro sesh last season running around looking for Aegon, all Aemon talked about was how he was a better fit to rule than Aegon was. Right. And then them saying Aegon's going to get bored.

That might be true, but I think his interest is going to last longer than they expected, right? They don't understand the amount of validation that he's getting from this. Well, and that fits so perfectly into this family dynamic because underestimating

Or just simply not paying attention at all to what makes the other person tick. I loved that moment in season one when Alicent finally called out Otto, right? Because he's like, well, if that is true, then I made you queen of the seven kingdoms. Like, would you have wanted it any other way? And what did she say? How could I know? I wanted whatever you impressed upon me to want, and now the debt comes due. A debt you are happy enough to pay. Like, her low point in season one, from her perspective, is...

An eye for an eye. She is appalled by what she proved capable of in that moment. And she tells her father that. And he's like... Where is the duty? Sacrifice? She tells her father that. She's like, I'm ashamed. Everybody's going to think I've lost it. And he's like... He's like, that was hot, actually. I didn't know until right now that you were ready for the big leagues. Yeah. Like...

For the way that Alicent is thinking about and looking at and considering her children to mirror the thing that she resented about her own father is, again, like, tale as old as time. These cycles repeat. You pass down that learned behavior. Yeah. But it is, like, just one more aspect of this tale that is, like, so deeply tragic. Masaria time! Let's just get it out of the way. The accent's... Way better. Better. Just way better. It's better. Simply better. Going back to season one, too. Yeah.

confront that accent again the improvement this is demonstrable is notable yeah notable no it's like borderline incomprehensible in season one and astonishing so you and i were wondering we were like we were curious at the time because when the fire happened at the end of season one we were like are they just gonna get rid of massaria because it's a call back in the previously on uh yeah um

We were like, are they just going to get rid of Masaria because his character is just not working? And we knew that she was involved in Blood and Cheese, but we were like, are they just going to like work around it? Like, what are they going to do? And as it turns out, they just fixed her accent. Great.

Great stuff. I thought she was great in this episode, honestly. I agree. These scenes were really good. We had a lot of confusion from listeners. Because, so, Eric, not Arik. Eric with an E. But his brother, Eric, who does not have a different trim on his cloak because now they wear the same armor. Dude.

Stealth candidate for moment of the episode. I don't actually mean this. It's a bit, but kind of. Oh, last time I saw there were two of you? When last we met there were two of you is fucking hysterical. Okay. So Eric, not Arik. When last we met, one of you had a slightly distinct piping around your cloak. Arik is with Aegon. That's right.

Eric is with Rhaenyra. Correct. Okay. Correct. I mean, I was just trying to give a mnemonic to people if they cared. Okay, so... Finds her sheltering with some goats. Yeah. As one does. In a boat. And a lot of our listeners were like, was she heading to Dragonstone? I'm so confused. This is part of the blockade. Mm-hmm.

She was headed presumably to Essos or somewhere. She was just getting the hell out of Dodge. That's what I'm sorry I wanted to do. Yeah. And, um...

And she was stopped and taken to Dragonstone. Yes. What is Eric's job description, by the way? He's like starships in the blockade and also... And I have to assume that the only reason that he was the one who found her is so that we could get the comedy of when we last met. There were two of you. And if that's the reason, I'm honestly fine with it. Even though it makes basically no sense that he would be aboard the...

Velaryon ships. And so then Daemon, who's been a picture of restraint and polite decorum throughout the rest of the episode. He handles this well as he does everything. Our character we adore who never makes any mistakes. Again, it's just lashing out. It's Rhaenys' problem. It's Rhaenyra's problem. It's Mysaria's problem. Yes. It's her fault that all of this happened.

Yes. You already mentioned the great you only blame me because your true enemies are out of reach line. I loved. Did you think I would wither in your absence? Like she is calling him out. I'm no longer under your bullshit. I'm no longer under your bullshit. That was a really good one too. Brutal. You know that. That shook him. He like immediately was like, okay, how about a transaction? But he was shook.

He was shook. I love that in our notes you called out season one, episode nine, when Misaria says to Otto, when your plot's ripened and you install your grandson on the throne, remember it was me who put him there. I have to tell you something. What? This is a true story. This takes us back to accent quarter for a minute. Sometimes instead of just transcribing a full quote, I'm like, I know I have this typed out. I'll open my notes from season one. I'll just copy and paste it. What did you do? This is what I had written in my Google Doc. I wrote...

When your blood is a weapon, question mark, bracket, genuinely can't tell, have no idea. Because we didn't have captions on our screeners. Because we didn't have subtitles on our screeners. And I, to your point, could not figure out what she was saying. So when your blood is a weapon. When your blood is a weapon. Could have worked. Yeah.

Okay, so she tells, she's like, Otto, I put him on the throne. And then she's like, Damon, I didn't put him on the throne. Yeah, I was just profiting from the thing that was going to happen anyway. What are you talking about? In the same scene, she says to Otto, I could have killed him as easily as a wasp on fruit. And then, you know, she's sending rat catchers into the Red Keep to do a murder. Man. Anyway, I loved all of this. Yeah, this was great. What'd you think of Eric's?

With an E. Going out of his way to follow Damon down the hall and be like, let me vouch for her. And then Damon's like, eat shit. You and I both have the same exact thing in our notes about this moment. They make you swear and swear. They make you swear and swear. Where he talks about his brother and he's like, we're supposed to defend the whole royal family. What do you do when they turn against each other? I actually loved this line. I also do. I did too. Um...

And it reminded me of that dumb Kristen Cole line when he's like, we were never told we had to defend princes from princes. Like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right, Kristen. Sure. I agree. Saved by the Cyrax. Rhaenyra. Back. Wonderful Cyrax screech to alert everyone. The little, like, brief little head nuzzle from Daemon. He's like, did you get what you need? Okay. This is something that Emma Darcy said about

and Daemon's connection, which is they said... Husband and wife who are also uncle and niece. That's all part of it. That's all in the mix. Yeah. They also have two children together. Another Aegon. Has the family learned nothing? And Viserys... Oh, it is a name. Oh, for a king...

Oh my God, the listeners are never going to go back to no video once they've seen you do that. I just loved that scene so much. I genuinely did. It's a darkness that Rhaenyra shares with Daemon. So in that moment, that little head nuzzle made me think of Sean Fennessey, aka the Nuzzler. I think the Nuzzler to catch on more than it did. No, but we can bring it back. Let's not give up. Okay. You and me. We'll make it happen.

So to be clear, let's write it down. It's Craig Stark, the Pussy Posse, and the Nuzler. Good company. A darkness that Rhaenyra shares with Daemon. And so when she, Rhaenyra, says, I want Aemon Targaryen. Again, her one line of the episode. One. Amazing. And he's like, well, fuck yeah. Now I get to go do a murder. My favorite thing to do. Where's my cloak? Right? Right.

But also it's like this in this moment, they're on the same page. Damon's about to skip forward. Yeah. A few chapters. But right now, darkness calls to darkness. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So he loaded the wrong book in the Kindle.

It happens. It happens. To the best of us. It happens. It happens. So the other moment with Damon and Masari is on the other end of this Rhaenyra return and declaration. That's where we get the throw line. Your blood is a weapon, Damon. When your blood is a weapon. Okay.

So we talked about this a little bit on Talk of Thrones, but the fact that we just feel it's important to note that Daemon has some knowledge of... He knows the tunnels. The tunnels. He gave Rhaenyra the little map in episode four. He can get from Rhaenyra's room to the Bowels of the Pleasure Den. Sure can. But he doesn't have everything that Mysaria possesses. He has... Has to seek out a different kind of currency from her. He knows blood. Blood.

Oh, yeah. She knows cheese. Commander! She knows cheese. That's... Yes. And that's... Cheese is who they need to get where they need to go. Okay. Definitely. Speaking of Rhaenyra. Yeah. The funeral. Let's talk about this. And the funeral... And Jace's return. Jace's return. Rhaenyra's funeral for Luke. And then the way that this is intercut with Alicent lighting the candles at the sept. This gorgeous sequence. United in their distance. That thing about...

Rhaenyra only having one line. When I saw people comment that after, I like had not clocked that. And when I saw people comment that after the episode, I was like, well, surely she says something to Jace. And then I rewatched the Jace scene and I was like, no, just that embrace. And so like, again, we cannot say enough about Emma Darcy and like, like their work in this episode. We already talked about this on Talk of the Thrones where we said like, there's very little Rhaenyra, but Emma's doing so much with their face, et cetera, et cetera. But like,

one line and implanting this like false memory in my brain that there had been more dialogue than that. Because those moments are so impactful. Yeah, they're rich. You can convey so much with the plants. That moment with Jace. Ugh.

was so gut-wrenching and moving. And again, it's another contrast because Alicent is sitting with Otto talking about how can we control our children. Yes. And Rhaenyra is just like wrapping Jace up in her arms and then Jace is holding Joffrey as they each put something on Luke's funeral pyre. Like...

that contrast was so palpable, even though this is a scene that's meant to remind us of the connections, of the ties. Because when we see Alicent lighting the candles at the saps, and we'll talk about who she lights candles for in a second, we think back to her taking Rhaenyra there,

In the second episode of the first season. And even though the plots and the schemes and the schemes and the plots were already underway at that point, there was such a genuine bit of outreach and friendship there. Like, you were in mourning. You were in grief. You have lost your mother. But also, like, your father loves you. But, like, that scene is so beautiful. You're watching that scene in light of this scene. Like, I was just devastated again by the distance between these, like, young women who once just, like, loved each other so much. Didn't have to go this way.

She's talking in that scene in season one, episode two, about her own mother, Alice's own mother, and lighting a candle for her mother and feeling close to her mother. The mother, which is also there. Different thing. And that's the first person she lights a candle for. She lights a candle for her mother. And then Viserys. And then Viserys Velaryon. This really got me. Like, again, it's too little, too late. Olivia Cooke. It's too little, too late, but...

the war path that Alicent was on. It's an insult. Like, maybe one day you'll get one that looks like you, Laenor. Over my cold, dead body, Viserys, will you proceed in this way? And to, like, the graciousness, even though it is too late. It's, like, actually quite, I think, reminiscent of Viserys in episode eight. Like, I can do this thing, and you're like, well...

But the gesture of acknowledging, like, this is who Luke was to Rhaenyra and himself and his family, and I can at least grant that. Like, there's a version of the character arc where Alicent says, Luke's strong. Luke's strong. And that would be terrible. But that's not what happened here. That would be a wild thing to do to, like,

Because that's why I light the candle. Olivia Cooke is like doing such a good job, like showing Alison, like just struggling through her emotions there for her to be then like strong. Which just wouldn't make sense. Yeah, Lucera's foreign. Any other thoughts on the funeral again? Damon, not in attendance. So that's tough.

Again, that shot for Reyna and the moment with Bela. Bela and Reyna don't get a lot to do in this episode, but just sort of like their connections. Bela's connection to Jace, Reyna's connection to Luke. Jace hoisting up little Joff. Very sad. And Joff putting like the toy that we saw Luke play with in season one into the fire is...

devastating. Harry Collette as Jace just making a meal out of everything he has. Also anytime we see a little toy

by a fire in a plot line about a dead kid in Thrones. It just makes me think of Shireen and Davos. Oh, Shireen! Crushing! Tough. You've got a question about Shireen. I do. Okay, so we're going to go a little bit out of order for the last few scenes of the episode because we have the Damon, let me sign you up for a quick gig scene with blood and cheese, but we're just going to bundle that with the actual sun for a sun at the end. So let's talk about Eamon and Kristen. Okay.

Plotting and scheming. Plots and schemes, schemes and plots. I'm not sure if you've heard, but they're the same thing. Yeah, yeah. Fissures and fractions. Can you stop scheming? Can you please inform the Hand if you're scheming? And also, go directly to your post, Sir Kristen. Do you think that's what he did? What do you think the guard duty plan was that evening is my question. Well, again, they just simply do not have enough members of the King's Guard to effectively... That's bullshit because in the book, it's just a guard.

They don't even say Kingsguard. They just say a guard. They could definitely come up with a different security measure. I love the Kingsguard math. I think it's very important. There are other guards. For sure.

Stick those two Hightower men we saw riding into the castle outside. I think the question of is Kristen Cole a good Lord Commander of the Kings card is completely valid. So like, is his job standing outside of Allison's door until they can no longer bear the sexual tension and then he goes inside and like fucks her? How do you think she signals that she's ready? Does his door just kind of like...

creak open or does she like take off her clothes in a loud enough way that he can hear the leg i don't know anyway so like is his post outside of her door or was his post outside of helena's door and he decided to go to allison's door instead he's her sworn yes he's her sworn protector so he should so there's just no one on helena's door just doesn't it's preposterous rough rough

I'm happy to just blame Kristen for that. It's going to be a tough performance review for Kristen Cole. It's bizarre. I mean, we're about to talk about Blood and Cheese and the changes they made, but I don't understand why, because Blood and Cheese just killed the guard. So I just don't understand why they wouldn't have a guard there. Yeah, they've got to kill a handmaiden, they've got to kill a guard. There's other characters they have to eliminate in order to have this clear path. So why don't you just have a guard there, which would make so much more sense, and kill him. I agree with that. I think that's a good note. Of course, before Kristen is tied up by the Dowager Queen's legs...

He's tied up plotting with Amon. Seamless transition. Thank you. This is why you're the professional. Shout out Rossby. Shout out Stokeworth. Look at old Wallace and Braun. What could have been? Yeah.

So Aemon really goes, this is another spot where he's just like full Daemon energy. We've wasted precious days in this war of quills and ravens. You love the war of quills and ravens language. I do. Words are wind. You should be leading the van and I should be flying cover on Vhagar. No castle would dare to raise Rhaenyra's banner against us. We could bring the whole of the crownlands to heel in weeks. Daemon in the season one finale. Now we need a place to gather. A toehold large enough to house a sizable host. Here at Harrenhal, I guess it would have been a week...

What's that noise you just made? I don't know. Cut off the west around King's Landing with dragons and we could have every green head mounted on spikes before the fucking moon turns. And then Eamon seamlessly transitions from mirroring Daemon, a character I would say well known for...

saying, why didn't you, you never asked me to be your hand, why am I not your number one? And then constantly trying to undermine the people who are nominally closest to him. Little bit of that here too. He's just taking another shot at Aegon like he was in season one, episode nine, saying he's hostage to my grandsire and mother. Hostage, which stands in stark contrast to how Aegon is speaking of Aemond in this episode. Oh, loyal. Like a hound. My best sword.

My blood. Loyal to the hounds. Okay, listen. Amon, as we noted in the trailer multiple times, calls his mother Alicent. Yes. Wow. He also calls her her grace, but calls her Alicent. Then he says, she blames you for starting this war after she plotted with my father's council to usurp his throne. Yes. Her grace speaks with two tongues. Now, you can't mention tongues and Alicent around Kristen. I think that's why he went directly to her chamber. Yeah.

When I said, go to your post, he's like, oh, I know. I know where my post is. Do you mean the bed post? I'll be right there. But Eamon calling her adolescent is wild. Eamon saying usurp. But yes. Is absolutely bananas, right? We got an email from our listener, Colin, who just called out this usage of usurp because...

Aegon has bought into the propaganda. Aegon's like, oh, my dad did it with me and changed his mind and I should be king and that's great. I got a dagger and everything. I'm the rightful heir. I'm it. And Aegon's like, oh, we stole this fucking throne, by the way. We usurped. You know what struck me about this, though? And I feel great about it. Is that, like, in season one, when Aegon is the one who's like, this is, like,

just not a part of my life for my reality. Eamon was the one who was giving us a, oh, team green loyalist all the way vibe early. Like when they're kids in Driftmark at the funeral, at Lena's funeral, I remember us discussing this at the time when, when they're talking about Helena, it will strengthen the family, keeping our Valerian blood pure. That's what Eamon says. And then Eamon says, she's an idiot. Rude. She's your future queen. Yeah.

We did call that out. Yeah. True. Great. Love that. I still think he knows that it was bullshit. Yes, yes, yes. That Viserys changed his mind. I do. Honestly, though, I mean, as you know, Aemond, I mean, I loved Aemond. Aemond, my favorite maniac. I just love Aemond. I love the book. Okay, rank for me the maniacs. Oh, man. Oh, man.

man. No, no, no. Eamon, Damon, Magor, and I'm putting Laris in there. What do you rank them? Just in terms of my favorite characters through this point in the show? Sure. Damon. Yeah. Eamon. Yeah. Laris. Yeah.

I probably have to put Maegor last because it's just like stitched into the tapestry. I do love Maegor. Disloyal. I like Aemon calling Alicent out here. Oh, yeah. Like, she blames me for starting this war after she plotted with my father's council. Yeah. Now, she didn't plot with her father's council exactly. I mean, she did on the Aegon front, but she was also like, you guys were plotting already before that I was brought into the know here. Oh, meetings without me? Cool. It's hard to not get that Cal invite. But I like him. I mean, obviously what Aemon did with Vhagar and with Luke

We've read the passages from the book before. There's no going back after that. It's done. But he's right to say that the threads were being stitched into the tapestry long before that happened at Storm's End. But these are fractures and factions inside, right? So he's like, I'm just going to make it happen. He's just saying it's her fault. Yes. She's like, it's your fault. And Otto's like, it's your fault, Allison. You know, so it's... Kristen's reply... Act two of Into the Woods, right? Okay, go ahead. Kristen's reply to...

Aemon taking a shot at Alicent. I liked because, of course, there's this interesting question of, all right, he's Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Where's his loyalty? He's Alicent's horn shield. He's plotting with Aemon. Yeah, where will his loyalty eventually be? He sure is. He's like, let's turn this on Rhaenyra. The way that he, this is the cunning spider. He's like, I know how to pivot. It's my favorite song. Are you ready? She drew Alicent into her web and intoxicated her. It is not your mother's fault. Like,

He's definitely talking about himself, by the way. He's just projecting so fully his own feelings, which, again, I guess that's part of what he and Al, that is kind of the source, actually, of his bond with Allison. So it tracks. How did you feel about how Otto navigated this scene with Amon? I don't know. I feel like this is just Otto showing that he's not quite on top of his game anymore. Yeah.

Because he's flattering Aemond. Yep. And Vhagar, the greatest single power in the realm. We talked to Chris about this on Talk of Thrones. Like, why would he do this? And it's like, because Aemond has Vhagar and he needs, like, Vhagar is... Vhagar is their WMD. They need Vhagar to win this war.

but they need control of Aemond in order to have control of Vhagar. And Otto probably walked out of this patting himself on the back being like, job well done me. And also everybody involved in this is missing the point completely, which is Aemond can't control Vhagar. That was the lesson of season one. This is the Viserys speech from the beginning. The idea that we can control them. It's an illusion. Great stuff. Blood and cheese? Aemond recruiting blood and cheese. Commander! Commander!

Being instantly recognizable in the murder cloak is actually great. It's so funny. This is the last email we have in the non-spoiler section, which is Molly, who wanted to let you know that Damon needs to bring back his XXL murder cloak from season one because his updated one does not have a hood nearly large enough to cover up all that targ blonde. My counterpoint is just this does actually look more like just a cloak you might wear. And not like...

the most insane garment we've ever seen. I'm about to crush my wife under her horse's veil. I think we decided that the reason the cloak looks so insane is because there's like a horse stunt involved and they needed to hide the like stunt person in the XSL cloak, but it's still absolutely wild. But yeah, the murder hoodie is out and about. Damon. Yeah. Back with the gold cloaks. Yes. Never forget when we saw him mutilating. I think that's why we had that scene. Many criminals. Was for this person.

pay off yes yes indeed the prince still had friends in the low places of king's landing fire and blood and followers amongst the gold cloaks do you think george rr martin is a big garth brooks fan when he writes that damon has friends in low places

That's my karaoke song, by the way. Oh, is it? Yeah. Wonderful. We should do karaoke at some point. Living on my roots. Let me tell you something. Going to karaoke with Chris Ryan is genuinely a life-altering experience. I demand a Talk the Thrones cathartic karaoke after the finale. Joe, who's blood? Oh.

blood a real charmer former sergeant of the city watch drummed out of service for beating a sex worker to death while drunk terrible so in the book he is an ex gold cloak yes because once again he beat a woman to death when he was drunk here he's still gainfully employed by the gold cloaks commander standards are slipping cheese rat catcher uh

It's made clear to us here that he is a dog kicker, which is horrible. Appalling. Yeah. He is a gambler. Yes. This is part of how Damon is tempting him with this coin purse here, your debts. He is happy to continue to snack throughout this entire conversation, which I just think is remarkable. Like, Damon Targaryen. Yeah. The prince of the city. Yeah.

Yeah. Is here to ask you to do this horrible thing, and you can't put your nosh down for a moment. Well, since no one ever calls him cheese, I feel like Alan Taylor and Ryan Conner are like, let's just have him eat a lot of cheese. Great. The actor who plays Cheese was like, I ate more manchego. By the way... He was fantastic. He was great. Yeah.

B, I love that they gave him manchego, a great hard cheese. Delicious. But he's like, I ate so much of that while we were doing this over and over again. That's what Kristen says. He sure does. Do you think he says, I know them better than the shape of my own cock about Magor's Tunnels? Great line. Great line in the book. We were thrilled to see it make it to the show. Just to remind everybody that one of the bits of book canon that is...

tells us really honestly everything we need to know about Maegor. There's a lot of other horrible stuff that earned Maegor the name The Cruel. But Red Keep constructed secret tunnels, secret passageways, passages and tunnels, tunnels and passages. And construction wrapped up. And then Maegor had everybody who had worked on it killed. Everybody who had worked on it killed so that no one would know the secrets. So no one knows all the passageways. Like, Daemon knows some, but, you know, I say eyebrows know some others. That's what I think. Eyebrows. Okay. Okay.

Rhaenyra was very specific with her request. I want Aemond Targaryen. My autocorrect always makes it Aemond Targaryen, but it is Aemond Targaryen that she wants. The one I have the autocorrect in the Google Docs is Thailand always goes to Thailand. To what? Thailand. Thailand.

Thailand Lannister goes to Thailand. The country. This doesn't happen to you? I was like, what's a Thailand? And then I changed the spelling in my head. Okay, yeah. No, I get Almond Targaryen constantly. Great stuff. Could have put an almond in his eye, but instead he went for a sapphire. Opportunity. Missed opportunity. Okay. So what does Daemon say? Steve, let's hear this. You're to find and slay the Prince Aemon Targaryen. He has silver hair and one eye. Should be easy enough to find.

But I understand that he's quite good in a fight. You want to take caution. One half. We'll get the other when it's done. All right. What if we can't find him? Dun, dun, dun! The clip does play differently now that I have Allman to Darky. You're to find and slay the Prince Allman to Darky. Sorry. I'm not. Oh, man. Okay, so Jo, we talked about this. We cut away dramatically.

Takes you right back to air for a day? Air for a day. What is your reading on what Damon says next? I think it's important to note. Yes. Bloodlater says, a son for a son, he said. A son for a son, he said. You love imitating blood. Commander! Funny to me that it's like, Commander. Commander! Commander, it's you and your signature murder colloquium to talk shit about the fight tower. A son for a son, he said. You make him sound so chipper. Anyway.

A son for a son, he said, is more what it sounds like. Okay, so a son for a son is definitely something Damon said. Also, no head, no gold. Yes. No body, no crime. No head, no gold. Okay, so Damon says, a son, give me any son. Right.

Give me a boy's blonde head in a bag or no gold for you. That seems to be instructions. Not go for the toddler next. So, right. Because, right. It's like, did he say, oh, well, then actually just go get Aegon's heir to the Iron Throne? Or does he just say any son will do? To be fair. Yeah. There's only three kicking around the joint. So, and Aegon, interestingly, is the...

alternate theory in Fire and Blood. Some say their quarry was the king himself. But Aegon was accompanied by the Kingsguard wherever he went, and even Cheese knew of no way in and out of Maegor's old vassal. There's my guy, Maegor! His legacies. The Tower of the Hand was less secure. So. And by less secure, in this case we mean, well, they're not in the Tower of the Hand, but if they were, we mean... The royals sleep up there! Ha!

Literally no one's guarding the entire floor. Oh, man. Okay, so we don't know exactly what Damon said. Maybe because there's a rainstorm. By the way, I loved the rainstorm. Also, if you watch the House of... It really helps you understand how much of the castle is just open. Yes. But if you watch the House of Dragons build, I thought the rainstorm was really cool and all the, like, you know...

quasi one shot moments that they have in that whole set because we that set is like a complete set and they built it out for season two i think they said like 400 more so there's just like a lot more so they're just like it's a it's a full set you wander around you wander into the throne room you wander up the stairs around the courtyard it's so cool uh there's a healthy section

of the House of the Dragons built. It's about them building the sewers and they're so proud of the way they built the sewers. And guess what? They looked fantastic. Tremendous. They look fantastic. But the guy who built the sewers is like, there were no leaks and that never happens.

And the guy who does the lighting is like, the firelight looks so good on the water. We didn't light it at all. We just let the torches do all the work. Sewers looked great. And it did feel, whatever questions, comments, concerns I have about Blood and Cheese and the execution, the journey through the sewers, like up the ladder. Dog kick aside, it was too much. Yeah. But yeah. It was really good. The score, the tension building, like my heart, knowing what was going to happen, my heart was...

It was really, really well choreographed. So, okay. We have our deduction about what Damon said. We don't know exactly. If Damon was like, you know what?

any of them will do, just make sure it's a son, then does this fall to you, because it is still not what Rhaenyra wanted, even if it falls under, like, that would have been an okay outcome for Daemon, does this fall into the bucket of what is really, at this point, a well-entrenched and established central thesis of the show, which is that part of the horror and the lamentation and the tragedy of the dance is the number of

or misunderstandings or miscommunications that unfolded between these characters where if just one little thing had gone differently, everything could have changed. The Aemond not being able to... Portents and signs. Mistakes and misunderstandings. Alicent thinking that Viserys meant their son Aegon. Of course, Aemond not being able to control Vhagar, which is part of that power we ought not to have trifled with. This is...

heavy on the mind, I think, of book readers especially, right? That they're just like, all these direct acts are being turned into oopsies of some kind or another. And there has been some negative pushback on that. I would say I've been thinking a lot about this and I really like it. And the reason, a reason why, is I like that the Aemond that we meet at the end of season one wouldn't do that.

But that doesn't mean that the Aemon going forward, I feel like you and I love a character on an arc. We love a character on an arc. And I feel like it's important to meet these characters where Nira's like, I just want

Aemon Targaryen. But is she going to stay in that space? Or Alicent is like, oh, I swear Viserys said this. But is she going to stay in this place? Are they all going to be pushed into more and more monstrous acts as we go forward? When we meet, Alicent Hightower has the biggest sort of makeover for the show because she's just...

like this horrible scheming bitchy queen in the book. Thanks, George, for the nuance. And they did a lot of work. You would say that it's his commentary on how the histories are told? Sure. Okay. No? No.

I mean, partially. But the show has added so much nuance to Allison. And so the Allison we met at the beginning of season one and the Allison we know at the end of season one. So we're watching these characters be pushed into more and more extremes, more and more monstrous acts. So it makes sense to me that they wouldn't just start there, that they would... You have a look on your face. I just love this. We're in completely the same place. Because I think the initial...

oh, wait, should these characters... Like, should confusing Agons or trying to fuck around and take an eye and scare your nephew, like, should these things be this seismic? But it does feel...

I love what you're saying about how that then builds and a thing that maybe was not your intention then becomes the defining thing in your life. Like, I don't think that the whole dance should be a series of accidents. No, no, no, no. But I feel like this idea of rational people pushed by and especially pushed by their own errors.

into more and more monstrous actions is a much more satisfying story. I totally agree. It feels very human. We can't relate to being closer to gods because of our dragons, but like... Speak for yourself. Yet. Making mistakes. And again, I mention this all the time, but it's in the series premiere for a reason that Viserys speaks to Rhaenyra

The idea that we control the dragons is an illusion. They're a power man should never have trifled with one that brought Valeria. It's doom. If we don't mind our own histories, it will do the same to us. And so you can apply that at scale. You can zoom in and apply that inside of an individual relationship or decision, but

The hubris of control and all of these characters thinking they're in control or can be, whether it's of their relationship with their own children, the bond with their dragon, whatever the case may be, like, they will continue to err. And I really am compelled by what you're saying about then embracing that. Right. Like, it will...

Who says it had to be an error? Yeah. I can make that my power. And that's like a thing we just love in these stories. The self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. And then you get like calcified into this role. I love that. When we think of one of our all-time favorite characters in all of Friendsdom, which is Jamie Lannister. Yes. Like Jamie Lannister killing the Mad King.

you know, we find out in one of the best scenes ever written, committed to television of all time. Fantastic. Between Brianne and Jamie, like, you know, this is, this is something that he did to save, burn them all. Like he was doing like, what is he, what is he supposed to do in this moment? And then he gets this reputation. And then what does he do? Lean into it for a long time. When we meet Jamie, like,

Like, beginning of season one, like, pushing Bran out of a window or dueling Ned in the street. Like, that is him being like, yeah, I'm the Kingslayer. What up? And then the fact that he has to confront, okay, this defining moment in my life. This thing that other people have, like, improperly contextualized and decided for me. You know, my name is Jaime, right? It's part of why we love that scene so much. Jaime, come on, Jaime!

And then when he rides back into King's Landing and he looks down, the person closest to him in the world, the person who he's saying the things I do for love about when he pushes Bran out the window, what does she do? She burned the city that he gave his reputation to spare from that exact fate. I don't want to talk about the bells. No, I mean Cersei blowing up the set. Oh, yeah, blowing up the set. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, like, for that to be, for that to be, okay, you can, you can,

You can resent it. Then you can embrace it. And then it's still going to be something that you have to confront. The best. A son for a son. Okay. This is when we go into real sicko mode and are like, blood and cheese was kind of tame. Blood and cheese was kind of tame. Objectively horrific.

The foley, the sound of the sawing on the four-year-old's neck. The sawing was a lot. The sawing was a lot. Obviously, it's a young kid who was killed. Helena, the mother, being there to not just witness it, but have to be made to be a part of it in terms of the pointing. All of that is awful. We're not saying that this was like a cheerful chipper scene. That is not what we mean. But take us through...

If you will. Why this is... Because Blood and Cheese, I think everybody's individual mileage may vary on what the most horrific thing in the world of Ice and Fire is, but I would think a lot of people would nominate Blood and Cheese for the... Among the most... Yeah, because of the children involved, right? Like, versus, you know, the Red Wedding, which is infamous in television and book and history of Westeros, etc. But like...

But there were, I mean, Talisa was there. And they go the other way with, like, I mean, Redwooding is obviously horrific in both book and screen, but, like, to almost ratchet it up in the show. I was talking to someone about this. I was, like... With the stabbing of the... I think Weiss and Benioff. Mm-hmm. For all their... I mean, they have so many talents and some flaws. Dani kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet. It's tough. Um...

They got this like real sicko edge to them. Oh, yeah. That I just don't think Ryan. I just think Ryan Condal is just like a nicer guy. And he's like, we really went for blood and cheese. And I'm like, you did not. Okay. Which is okay. Dial down. Yeah. Blood and cheese. Like the red wedding. I'm going to think about for the rest of my life. Same. And I was just like horrified. Unbelievable. When that happened. Yeah. And when you think of like.

Michelle Fairley screaming. You know, like, I think about that all the time. Right? So... Mother. I don't know that I needed... I didn't need Helena to scream. She screams in the book. I didn't need her to scream. I didn't need that. But I just needed... And I really like Fia Saban and Saban the way... I don't know. And the way that she plays Helena. Like, I like all that. I didn't mind that her reaction was kind of muted. But there was just, like, something about it that felt just, like, slightly inert. Mm. Um...

to me. But I think this is a real divide among book readers and non-book readers. Where like, if you went in not knowing what was going to happen in this episode and you're like... Alice and Son in there. It feels different. Yeah. The fact that there's not an additional level of killing the... Of choosing. Yeah, the characters. The...

And the fact that this is, again, I sound like I need to be institutionalized or put on a watch list for saying this. I'm sorry, but we are just doing a head-to-head comparison here. The kids aren't awake.

Like, it is, like, little things like that, but this is, like, a nighttime ritual where Helena brings the three kids, three in the book, which we'll talk about in a second, to visit with Allison before bed. And it's their custom. And the children are awake, and every second of this horror that unfolds, they're processing. So it's like, I mean...

I'm sure for many people, it's a relief that the kids are asleep until the moment where blood goes over to Jaehaerys and wakes him, and he knows that moment of sheer terror before his head is cut off with a very detailed sound design. And then Maelor. Maelor not being the third kid. There's a two-year-old that's supposed to be there. Yes.

So Helena is made to choose between which of her sons is going to die, and she chooses the one who's not the heir. She chooses Maelor. She chooses the younger one. She's like, Aegon cares a lot about his heir, Jaehaerys. I'll choose the younger one. Perhaps she thought the boy was too young to understand. Yeah. Or perhaps it was because the older boy, Jaehaerys, was King Aegon's firstborn son and heir next in line to the Iron Throne.

You hear that little boy? She's whispered to Maelor, your mama wants you dead. And then he cuts off Jaehaerys' head instead. Yeah, so they kill the other one. That's just like a different tier. She picks the two-year-old of terror. They kill the six-year-old of terror.

And whisper to the two-year-old, your mama wanted you dead. Now, I still say, I still maintain the two-year-old's not going to remember that particular whisper. So, okay. The thing about it that sticks with me, though, is that Helena... And again, Mailer's just not in the show, so I don't think this is a spoiler to say, but...

in the text it describes like she can't look at him. Oh yeah. That kid is alive. Yeah. And she can't look at him because she is so consumed by the fact that she named him for death. Like there's just a level of trauma from that that is. Yeah. There's like threats of threats of sexual assault as you mentioned a dead guard a dead maid. There's just like there's it's just. Yes. It's it's it's one of those things where you read it and you're like

how was a person capable of thinking of this? Let me do a little head-to-head for you. Which was worse? Give me a little horror scale here. Yeah. Because...

We talked about this a lot on our preview pods, the question of would this be the thing that swings some people to Team Green. We're going to come back to that actually in a second. But we got a mailback question. It was one of our book spoiler questions, so some people might not have heard us discuss it on one of our preview pods. Would blood and cheese be too much for some people to handle? And we talked about...

The long history of horrific things that have befallen children and thrones. Now, there are too many to possibly go through on this pod, but just like try to slot Blood and Cheese in show land. You got a smattering? A little smattering. A smattering for me? I'm going to try to slot Blood and Cheese. Okay. This is what happens when we podcast for three hours. Blood and Cheese in the show or Jamie starting the series by pushing Bran out of a window. Which is more horrific. Yeah.

Blood and cheese. Okay. Blood and cheese or the mass slaughter of King Robert's bastards. The mass slaughter of Robert's bastards. Okay. Blood and cheese or Talisa being stabbed in the pregnant belly. Talisa being stabbed in the pregnant belly. Blood and cheese or Shireen Baratheon being burned alive.

Blessed by her own parents. That episode also came out on Father's Day, as did this episode. Dude. By the way. Fucked up. Sicko behavior. Fucked up. Sicko behavior. I think Shireen is worse. Shireen is worse. And then Blood and Cheese or Ramsey feeding his own baby brother to his dogs. I don't know. Blood and Cheese. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for chiming in. Thanks for playing that game.

All right, so what would the impact of this be? Play it forward for us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Two questions. One, in the world of the story, but two, among the fandom. Do you think that more people are going to be Team Green as a result of what Damon has done? And then same question, but inside the world. Like, what will the impact be on the dance? This is a PR nightmare for Rhaenyra. But on the PR front, I also just don't understand why Aemond the Kinslayer isn't like...

why that isn't being paraded through the streets of King's Landing. Like, the PR team on Dragonstone really dropped the ball on, like, really pushing this Aemond, Almond, Kinslayer thing. I totally agree. I know everyone's got, like, stuff going on in their morning, but yes, they could have been working that angle more in the press. I did want to quickly clarify, actually, because I said on Talk of Thrones, you know, Rhaenyra wouldn't have wanted this because, like, Helaena is her half-sister, which is, that part's true. Yeah.

Just specifically, to be more precise about it, Aegon and Aemond are Rhaenyra's half-siblings, too. That's all kinslaying. Like, Rhaenyra's saying, I want Aemond to marry her. That's still kinslaying, but... It's accursed. No, man, it's not accursed. It's the kinslayer. I have heard. Helaena, Jaehaerys, they're innocents.

seeking retribution on Eamon for killing your kid would be perceived differently than what happened here. So I just wanted to draw that distinction a little bit more clearly. So it's going to be a tough look for Team Black in the show. I don't think viewers at home are going to blame Rhaenyra for what... It all depends on how Rhaenyra reacts to Damian. I can't wait to find out.

Should we talk a little bit about the, very briefly here, about the trailer? Yes. That we saw for the rest of the season. It's a this season on trailer. Because you, Neil and Dave, will be talking about this in more detail on Trial By Content. Follow on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. So let's just each do like maybe our favorite thing that we saw because there was a lot of new footage in here that wasn't in the trailers we had previously seen. What was your favorite thing and why was it Kristen's new haircut?

It's Kristen's new haircut because it looks so dumb. And I have so many questions. What we must do is terrible. Will you preside over it? Do you think he was talking about the haircut?

he fabian frankel's wearing a wig in this episode like that is true so i don't know if he just like i don't know what happened i would like the full story oh it feels so like like roman empire coded to me yes i can't i can't wait to see the exact moment where he gets that gut i can't uh megan o'keefe from decider so she interviewed fabian frankel and was given like

She said, I had 20 units of Fabian Frankel, Matt Smith, and someone else divided among other people, and I asked about the haircut. So Decider.com will have some answers about Chris and Cole's journalism. Boots on the ground. Boots on the ground. What was your favorite part?

all of the Riverlands action. We've been talking about this since last season. We've talked about it a lot today. We got so much Riverlands in this glimpse. Kristen saying the Riverlands are the key to the war. Harrenhal is the key to the Riverlands. Damon at Harrenhal. Again, this is like, they're just, they're showing him there. Yeah. The Blackwoods. The Brackens. Jace at the Twins? Jace at the Twins question?

We don't know. We as book readers do not know. Oh, man. We know that like Jace is out there recruiting, but Jace and the twins is not something we ever. Is he going to be meeting with Forrest and Sabatha? Is that who's sitting with him? Forrest Frey? I'm super excited to find out. Just on the bridge of the twins. It's so cool. And then your guy. Your guy, Simon Strong. Simon Russell Beale, who's a tremendous actor, shows up as Simon Strong. Delightful. At Harrenhal. So it's just like basically a Riverlands.

I'm stoked. I'm really stoked about the Harrenhal. Anything else? The last thing we want to mention is that there's a mysterious woman hooded with a red hood on, looking like she's in King's Landing, right? Would you say that that's where she is? Seem to be doing a lot of let me look over my shoulder to make sure I'm not being followed as I suspiciously make my way about the cup of tea.

I believe we're allowed to say this because we both possess schnozzes. Mal and I were on schnozz wash, and we believe that this young woman might be a Linda, which is Rhaenyra's handmaid. Looks like her profile. I really think it looks like her. Yeah, it definitely looks like her. Yeah.

So, Elinda Raniere, who you will remember from when Raniere gave birth and then walked bloody through the castle. She's been around a while. So, what is Raniere? We don't know. What is Raniere's... I have genuinely no clue. We don't know. Handmade, doing in not quite a murder cloak, but a red cloak. A lot of people were like, is that Melisandre? Like a younger Melisandre? And I'm like, your eye just twitched. Elinda, we should say, is a character in the book.

Her father is on the Black Council. So I don't think, like, Alinda is Melisandre is going to happen or something like that. But what is an emissary of Rhaenyra doing in King's Landing? Is this something, like, Massaria has set up? Like, what's going on? What are we doing there? What do we want in King's Landing that we can't get ourselves? Ooh.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Why is Jason the twins? Why did Kristen do that to his hair? Oh, man. Tune in to Trial by Content where we'll be talking about this more. Speaking of hair, it is time at last for Wig Watch TM with Joanna Robinson. TM. Will you wear wigs? Vast improvement on the wig front this season. Happy. I'm happy for you. Vast improvement. Not you, Craig. Craig Stark. Craig Stark.

Yeah. I remember the first picture we saw, you were like, oh boy. This wig. Yeah. Listen, I respect the fact that the Starks have not changed their clothing in over 100 years. I like the wolf bit. I respect that the half-up pony with the pieces down is still the look. Yep. Okay.

I respect the fact that they only were shooting five minutes of this actor, so they felt like they didn't have to get him a really good wig. But if and when he comes back, I'm going to need a lace front for him. Oh, okay. The hairline here was bizarre. Anyway...

That's for Craig. Rhaenys' Dragon Patrol wig, incredible. Rhaenyra's iconic... No longer looks like she has a pineapple on top of her head. But it was all sort of coiled and really business-like. Great stuff. Looks like it could sustain a lot of wind and still look great. Speaking of wind-swept, though, Rhaenyra's fucked-up grief wig, iconic. Wonderful. Tremendous. Wonderful. Loved it.

J. Harris and J. Hara, we have some notes. Oh, man. You liked those little blonde wigs? I thought this was the closest they'd gotten to nailing the color. J. Harris's hair looked silver to me. The color was good. Like, hard silver. I was like, is this kid going to have purple eyes? Like, are they going to do it finally? Is a four-year-old capable of growing that much hair? Yeah.

If you go your whole life without a haircut at four years old, I don't think you have that much hair on you. All right. That's fair. Okay. I mean, again, once again, I do not know, but it's a great question. Okay. Wow. What a wig watch that was. I know. I mean, we're back. Okay. It is time for our quick little, we'll have, we'll do this every week because we do it every week. We don't go through every single thing that's going to happen in the future in the books. Just some of the things that really caught our attention or piqued our interest and

If you don't want to hear us talk about things that are going to happen in the future, in Fire and Blood, and that thus may happen in the future of the show, this is where you leave us. Thank you for spending multiple hours with us today. Okay. No time for amusement style. It's time for the book plug ahead. Rapid fire. Maegor and the Throne. I got there. You're all in on this. Yeah. Because we've talked a lot about whether Rhaenyra...

Rhaenyra's takeover of King's Landing would be the logical endpoint for the season. But what if it's not just taking over? And we've talked about this since dating back to season one. Yeah. What if it's the sitting on the throne for the first time and then getting up and the trail of blood because the throne has rejected her?

Like, this feels like almost a promise. You're in on that. I'm out on that. Yeah, yeah. On this, we are divided, and that's okay. Yeah. Which is so funny, because I was the one at first who was sure we were going to end on Gullet, which is just obviously not the case now. Well, it's true that we can do the one thing without Gullet. But that was my take originally. I know. You're right. And you're right. And you're right. You're like, why can't they just switch to the order, Mallory? You're right. And I was like, why can't they?

I can't think of the order. But I'm just saying season three, I think season three is Gullet and King's Landing. But then where does the season end? We'll talk about that. We don't have to do that now. Got some seeds to sow. I don't know. Oh, man. I was wondering. Yeah. By the way. Yes. In case you don't recall or haven't read the book, they call Rhaenyra Maegor with teeths. It's not great.

But it is a thing that happens. So that whole like Maegor the Cruel, Rhaenyra, the future of Rhaenyra, I'm not looking forward to that nosedive in her reputation. But also just a reminder of how much the small folk will suffer during a Targ civil war. Maegor is a good reminder. Very much so. They're also going to have a lot of thoughts on their taxes. A lot of thoughts on their taxes. Winter wolves and the hour of the wolf. Okay. So my question to you is a simple one here.

It seems clear from the interviews after the premiere that Kragan is not coming back this season. Yeah. Are we going to have to wait for the Hour of the Wolf for Kragan to return, or are they going to sub Kragan in for some of the other Northern...

That's what I would do. Why just have the Winter Wolves when Kragan can enter sooner? I mean, like, he did just say, I'm just sending you some... Because then he can be back in season three. But he's like, I'm just sending you some graybeards, not myself. So, like, but I think it would be silly to not continually check on him. I also think that they're going to see the fan response to that opening scene and be like, we got to get him back sooner. 100%. And that would be the right read. I really agree. Stocks, don't forget the oost. And we should just... I mean, what Jace does here, getting the stars... I should have been excited.

surprised me for some reason. Maybe it's because we've been doing this for so long. The Starks and the Arryns that Jace just nabbed are going to win the war for them at the end of the day. The Starks don't forget their oaths. I also thought that Kragan was quite charismatic and compelling, but you still got enough of that strict rigidity here that you need for the Hour of the Wolf. Oh, yeah. He has to come in and be fiercely...

team black but also say I will not leave until we find out who's responsible for the poisoning that hit the other side like he it's such a fascinating stretch of the book to read and like some guy is going to come in and be like Corliss honor family duty sacrifice okay I cannot face that horny old bitch alone well or

I don't know. I'm not sure there's a... There's so much I'm looking forward to the next season, but I don't know that there's anything I'm looking forward to more than Aemon versus Daemon. Aemon versus Daemon, Vhagar versus Caraxes over the God's Eye where they both go down. Even more...

So good. Urgently. Yeah. Do you think Rhaenys will live to regret not taking out Vhagar slash Aemon when she had the chance? Yes and no. Well, yes. Yes and no because like- She'll regret it while she's dying. That's the thing. It's like, oh boy, maybe if I had listened to Daemon, but like, if you're gonna listen to Daemon, maybe that just happens sooner, you know?

I will say, like, I'm not quite ready to say goodbye to Renise as soon as we're about to say goodbye to her. Like, so many of the trailers were built around Rook's dress. Like, it's just, it can't be more than a few episodes away. It has to be mid-season. And, like, but that's the other thing is, like, Rainey's, they're doing, okay, I'm going to, yeah, it's the next one. Seed setting. Dude! Hugh Hammer. This shocked me. Hugh Hammer, Alan. Alan mentioning his brother. Yeah.

They're putting the seeds in early. Yes. And this is so smart. So we're going to get, one has to assume, a lot of reasons to miss Rhaenys over the next couple episodes, right? And then we're getting the seeds, the dragon seeds. Again, if you're listening to the spoiler section and you haven't read the book, Adam and Alan of Hull, these brothers, are Corlys' bastard sons, and therefore... Yes, Adam will be riding sea smoke. Exactly. Exactly.

Why? Vlaenor's not there? Who knows? Hugh Hammer. This was wild to me. Not only that Hugh was here from the beginning. They've also cast his wife. Exciting! So we can't get some, like, hey, let me have a relationship moments with Jace, but we can get them with Hugh. Interesting. Maybe we will get them with Jace. I don't know. I'm excited to find out. Not just that we met Hugh early and that we're sitting, we're seating for the seats. He is in King's Landing. He's petitioning Aegon. He's saying...

We're rooting for you. Rooting for you against Rhaenyra. So it sets... I mean, I have no idea if this is exactly what's going to happen, but it feels like it's setting up that one of the two betrayers is going to have a betrayal before the Great Betrayal. That a turncloak is always a turncloak. Is that why Elinda is in King's Landing? To round up...

The dragon seeds? So my question is, like, why would he be susceptible to being snatched? So Aegon promises him the coin here. And if he doesn't follow through on that because of autos, control, or anything else, then maybe he was like, fuck this. I'm going to go to the other side. Yeah. Right? And I do like that maybe they're recruiting for the seeds. Like, Masaria. Just look for the hair. Masaria is like, oh, I know everyone in King's Landing who is a bastard. I have a full catalog of the silver. Yeah. Silver.

Have you heard of Ulf the White? Oh, man. Okay. I can't wait to meet Ulf. So, yeah, that's just exciting because, like, you know, the betrayals from Hugh and Ulf are so intense and awful. So, like, to set up that this is a character who would say something and then switch sides before the key moment is really exciting. Really exciting. Scorpion? Okay. So...

Do you take the attention drawn to defending the city against dragons to mean that the attack on King's Landing happens this season? Or again, you're saying, no, it's just not happening. I'm happy you were wrong. I don't know. I mean, neither do I. Okay. Egan saying fools to Helena, they'd be fools to come with Vhagar protecting the city. That felt again like setting up, it could be still just for the beginning of next season, but if Aemon leaves for Harrenhal,

And leaves the city vulnerable. Any other Kraken thoughts you want to share? I'm just so excited. Good stuff. Okay. Eric and Ark. There's a really rare Mally Rubin typo in the notes here. You never make a typo. This is Eric and Arky. You never typo, and I do all the time. Oh!

Oh, my God. I was going to say, should we call them Eric and Arky from now on? But, you know, they're not going to be with us that much longer because Cargoball is nearing. It's next. If you look at the bullet point of the dance, it's like blood and cheese, Cargoball. It should be very soon, right? Seeking retribution for what has unfolded with blood and cheese. This was a more effective use of the Cargol twins to me. Just like a quick but impactful little moment with Eric. I liked it.

Blood. Blood. Gold cloaks. Loyal to Daemon still. The gold cloaks are going to be a key part of how they eventually take King's Landing. So again, feels like we're building toward that. But when? Who can say? Rooks rest. I said it so you don't have to. Thank you. Whenever that episode is, I'm fucked. Rooks roost, as I insist on calling it for reasons that completely elude me. Our hosts growing as we advance. So this is what they're planning. They're planning...

Rook's Rest. Eamon and Christom. Exciting. Helena the Dreamer. This is the last thing we want to say. Take me through it. We have a last email from William. In terms of Helena's calm during the blood and cheese. Yeah. He says, Jahara...

That's the girl one. Is ultimately going to be wife and queen to egg on the third. Yep. And Helena may know this part her daughter is going to play. Almost, it's that Tatarac golden path behavior. But for casuals, I wonder if this is an odd motherly scene to dissect, even considering the already strange motherly character. But yeah, this idea that she knows Jaehaerys is going to be queen. She's already stitching Jaehaerys' funeral shroud.

if indeed that's what she's doing, blah, blah, blah. That would be really sad to me if she was like, well, it's faded. Yeah, it's done. That would be awful. Okay. One last thing on Helena's drawings. Again, if you go watch the House of the Dragon Belt, they have slow pans across the wall and stuff like that, and it is just packed with stuff. Acheia from History of Westeros tweeted these out, and I was like, where did you find these? And then I watched the House of the Dragon Belt.

Ryan Connell in that video says she has graffitied her walls with her dreams. Absolutely beautiful. And again, no one in her family is like, what's up with this? What's up with the drawings? Highlights here. She mentions, she writes in her notebook, the goose kills its reflection and both die.

And the cargo sigil is the golden goose. And then there are these two geese sort of reflected on one facing up, one facing down next to each other. So that's cargo bull, right? Headless dire wolves, which could be Ned and Rob. Shaggy. Or, you know. Here, shaggy, shaggy bull. Here, shaggy bull.

A woman on fire, which could be... It's a naked woman, so I was like maybe Daenerys, but also maybe Rhaenyra. I like Dany. A rat with a knife. Blood and cheese. Yeah. A boar. I was thinking about Robert Baratheon. Yeah. A baby being burned. Visenya. A direwolf with a crown. Bran. Or Jon, if you prefer. A stag with a crown. Bobby B. Oh!

One last thing I'll say here that I meant to say in the non-spoiler section. It's not a spoiler. I just want to mention it here. The fact that Kristen and Allison are fucking in Rhaenyra's bed. I genuinely love that this is, like, so deplorable to you. The production designer, Jim Clay, who's the best in interviews, he was like, we made it. We specifically did not change the furniture because we wanted, like, Rhaenyra's presence there. So the fact that, like...

I like this idea that, like... Very upsetting. That, like, Kristen is, like, fucking Allison and Allison is fucking Kristen. And, like, whether or not you buy into this whole, like, Allison and Raniera, like, queer reading. This idea that, like, really...

They're there with each other, but really both of them want Rhaenyra, whether it's like romantically, sexually or whatever, platonically. The fact that that's all embodied by them having sex in the same bed where Rhaenyra lost her virginity to Kristen Cole or coerced her employee into having sex with her is troubling. House of the Dragon. We're done. We did it. Oh my God. I had the time of my life. This was delightful. I know.

I'm sure that but I have no idea what or John and Steve are like guys what that was the length of all of season two but I gotta say I had a blast we were like we'll be done 45 minutes ago at the latest we've been off by more than that before in our time estimates for what it's worth for what it's worth alright I should have done the Chris Ryan move which is closing the last like seven sections ago Maylis must gorge and rest and so must we thank you to our small council

John Richter. John Richter. And Steve Ullman for producing this episode. Yes. This is John. John did the accolade last week, the video edit. This is John's first like, oh boy, we've got a three in front of this experience. John, welcome to the team. Welcome to the party, pal. First but not the last.

Our Jinerim Gopal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomia Deneron for his work on the social for this episode. We gave you the programming reminders at the top. Get your tickets to Talk of Thrones live. Please. Check out the YouTube channel. Give us the five stars on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for spending an astonishing amount of your time with us. A truly troubling amount. We genuinely cherish it and do not take it for granted, so thank you. It means a lot to us. Until next time, remember...

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