‘House of the Dragon’ Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive | House of R
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Thomas's presents Technique with Tom. Slicing an English muffin with a butter blade? Boulder dash! Just pull apart with your hands and marvel in the nooks and crannies splendour. For each one is unique, like a snowflake. Thomas's. Huzzah! A toast to breakfast. And you acceded to this, this prank, without consulting me or the council? No.

Instead of judgment, you display impetuousness and diminish us in the eyes of our enemy, ill-considered, trifling. You never think of your father, his forbearance, his judiciousness, his dignity. Fuck dignity. I want revenge. Greetings and welcome to House of R. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network.

I'm Mallory Rubin. Yeah, you are. And it's my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to the totally smooth, nary a pothole in sight streets of King's Landing. Freshly paved. But also to our new-ish House of R podcast feed. 200th episode today, we think. But not all on this feed, so I'm still going to say new-ish. I support you. Maybe I retire it after today. Joining me today, telling me she has dared.

And folks, she finds it stimulating. It's Joanna Robinson. Mallory, will you stop? Curse Fishwives. Do a pod with me.

Jo, we are here to do a pod. We are here to dive deep, quite deep into House of the Dragon, season two, episode two. But before we remind Steve and John and Arjuna, who can see us through like a very thin pane today, they're just right there. Wonderful. That we are one soul in two bodies.

Some quick programming reminders. We're going to zip through these because we've got a meaty, a hefty, a girthy pod today. Overrun the ringerverse. Overrun the ringerverse. Loaded week. Mint edition.

summer road trip draft. Sweet. That's tomorrow. Sick. Or maybe today by the time you're listening to this. Who knows? Who can say? Thursday, the Midnight Boys, pew pew, they'll be back for another double pod. Acolyte episode five, the boys episode five. And then at the end of the week, somehow it is already time for Ring Reverse Recommends again. I'm definitely ready for that.

And won't have to read a book very quickly in the next two days. Sounds great. Trial by content. Yes. What do you, Neil, and Dave have cooking for Thursday? We'll be doing our usual look ahead, looking at the trailer for the next time on and doing some speculation about what's to come. We'll be answering your questions, trialbycontent at gmail.com. If you have any questions that Mallory and I have not addressed in the next episode,

several hours of this podcast. Several. And then we always do a debate, and I think this week we're going to be debating who most deserves the sack, who deserves to get fired in Westeros this week. You got all the rat catchers out of there. Who's up next? Well, get your nooses ready. Jo, we will also be back on Thursday. Yes. You will be appearing on multiple podcast feeds on the same day, not for the first time, not for the last time. Acolyte, episode five.

Also, Rob Mahoney and I have a Prestige TV episode of Presumed Innocent, a great show that people are just like really genuinely enjoying. Yeah. You would love it. I can't wait. I love the movie. And I love Apple TV. And it is like...

And especially horny, but as you know, because you've seen the film. Say no more. And then Sunday night, Jo, we will be back with Chris Ryan. When? Right here on the House of R. The second, the instant, the very moment. Moment. That House of the Dragon episode three concludes. Head to the new.

a brand spanking new ringerverse YouTube channel where you will be able to watch Talk the Thrones. You can also watch Talk the Thrones on Spotify. You can listen to it anywhere you get your podcasts. And speaking of that YouTube channel, if you haven't checked it out yet, pop on over, hit subscribe, then come back to Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, follow our pod, follow the ringerverse, follow them all. Give us the five stars. We're not too proud to ask. Love it. We love them. Keep them coming. Please. Like hops.

Sprinkled on our passing heads. Five stars. Five stars. Five stars. Yeah. Is that ash? No. It's a five-star review. Joanna, how can everybody follow along? Oh, my God. Thank you so much for asking. Hey, you know what? Yeah. You're fucking welcome. Thanks. Great. Speaking of watching us on video, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com is how you can reach us on email. That's right. If you get an email from someone who picked up on a, like...

It's a robust car in the new studio. It's a good one today.

Picked up on a visual How I Met Your Mother joke that I did in the middle of our Acolyte pod that I did not say, but I just gestured. There you go. So that's something you can enjoy if you're watching the video. But you don't have to watch the video. Just follow us on wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to The Pods. Subscribe to Ringiverse. Listen to all of that. Follow us on social, on TikTok, on Instagram, on Twitter, et cetera, et cetera, Facebook, YouTube, as you mentioned. Yeah.

And then, yeah, hit us up. HobbitsandDragons.gmail.com. Fantastic. What a way to go. Joanna, while you're at it, why don't you share our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning with the good people? Okay, listen. Did it happen in this week's House of the Dragon? Yeah. Then we're going to talk about it. Did it happen ever on the HBO series House of the Dragon? Could come up. Oh, then. Okay. Did it happen on Game of Thrones, a show that we have watched and covered for years?

Fair game. Did it happen in any of the books in A Song of Ice and Fire that George R.R. Martin wrote? Could come up at any time. It's possible. Yeah. Did it happen in Fire and Blood up to the point of this episode? Could come up for context. Yes. We love context. Depth. You just love reading George's beautiful prose, especially when you describe sex scenes. There's just iconic 10 out of 10. Unmatched. Unmatched.

If it happens in the future... That's right. ...in Fire and Blood, if it happens in future episodes, we don't know because we, you know, we're watching each week, but, like, if it happens in the future... Yeah. ...in the books, we will have a book spoiler warning. Okay.

Separate. And guess what? We're not going to surprise you with it. We're going to tell you that we're about to do it. Yeah. So you'll know. Exactly. Yeah. It's just sort of like Laris being like, you don't need to be afraid about me. Here's the king with his mace. Now imagine the maces and the spoilers we're about to like bludgeon you with.

Laris will show up to let you know that the spoiler bludgeoning is coming. Is that how metaphors work? Great. I love it. I'm excited to get your take as a baseball enthusiast on Egon's hit tool. We get to see him swing a couple different times in this episode in a couple different ways. Oh, the sword. Yeah, destroying the beautiful model, which we're going to mourn in a few minutes here.

swinging right into Blood's head. What do you think? Is he a contact hitter? Is he a power hitter? You've been watching a lot of Orioles baseball. Is this a good way to keep the pod tight today? I'm giving him like a 60 on the 80 scale. 80? Why is it out of 80? Let's move on.

It's going to be out of 80. Please, let's move on. Don't answer that. Just imagine that we're sitting behind the Orioles dugout at the Coliseum and I'm about to give you a long, detailed explanation and answer to that very question. Yeah, and some old man is like, you're so lucky you have her here to explain baseball to you. A real thing that happened to us.

All right, Jo. Yeah. Let's chat about episode two. Rhaenyra the Cruel. Tough one for Rhaenyra. But good one for a Maegor fan like you. As you know, I love Maegor the Cruel. I mean, you're his number one groupie.

You're a Maegor fan, babe. I still can't get over seeing Maegor in the new opening credits. Just an absolute delight. Rhaenyra the Cruel. This episode, Rhaenyra the Cruel, directed by Claire Kilner. Three episodes in season one were directed by Claire Kilner. Four, five, and nine. This episode was written by Sarah Hess and Joanna. Just like this podcast today, it's a long one. How long? 69 minutes. Nice. Nice. Jo, it's not a sentence.

But an honor. Yeah. To share the opening snapshot. Every one of those that doesn't have your dragon card is like disappointing. I know. It does feel like something is missing. It's there in absentia, I guess. Joanna Robinson. Yeah, Mallory Rubin. What did you think? Just give us a little taste because we are going to go scene by scene. Okay. But give us a little amuse-bou.

a table setter of what you thought. Should I do, is this, should I do this? Like I'm conducting an orchestra the entire time as we speak? I really hope your booshes and moos by what I'm about to say, okay? What'd you think of this episode? Really liked it. Yeah. Not my favorite of the season. There's only been two episodes. Um,

But I really liked it. So on the power ranking of two, you have it second? Yeah. The highs were higher, though. Especially like the Rhaenyra-Daemon fight, which we'll talk about. You know, all of that stuff is amazing. I do want to shout out Claire Kilner as a director. Yes. Rewatching the Green Council episode nine that she directed last year and comparing...

The moments of Viserys's dead body has been discovered with the moments of this episode. You know, she's sort of doing a mirroring there. She's very interested in, like, artistic visuals and, you know, slowing things down. This episode has a ton that is happening, a ton of characters that we're juggling. There's, you know, a big physical fight at the end. Like, it has a lot of stuff, but it also has... Your favorite scene. It also has Rhaenyra...

gazing at dust motes in the shaft of life. I love an eyeball cam. I do. The way it just like focuses from one eyeball to the other is just like, or the shot of Helena with the hops. Oh, through the veil. Those are hops, by the way, for some reason. I mean, they look great. They're green husks of something. She wanted something green, Claire Kilner said, in the House of Dragonbills. Many a moment spent on a preseason trailer breakdown pod debating, discussing. Ash? Is it ash? Is it a petal of a flower? Hops.

Hops and Dragons at gmail.com. So...

Like those shots. Helena with the veil and the hops coming down or Rhaenyra looking at the dust motes in the light and stuff like that. So I want to shout out Claire Kilner and I want to shout out Alejandro Martinez who is her DP on this episode. He was a DP on all of her episodes last season and has followed her from shows like Fallout or Mosquito Coast. Like he's her guy. And this is like there's something I love to track with Thrones when we would have directors that we loved who would return. You know you would have

Miguel Sapochnik and then Fabian Wagner, his director of photography, would come with him. So like tracking the cinematographers is a really fun thing to do as we get –

more and more obsessed with House of the Dragon. How about you, Mallory? Did you love this episode? How did you feel? I did love this episode. I'm loving the season so far. I couldn't be more thrilled. Like, we are going to get a good season of television, and this is a delight for us as people who spend a lot of our time talking about Game of Thrones and love to be in Westeros together. Like, people seem to be excited talking about the show. I thought that this episode coming off of the premiere, which I loved,

And something as deeply, deeply disturbing, but for readers, anticipated, as Blood and Cheese. This felt like a little bit of a return, not in terms of, of course, how many years of canon we're traversing, but just in terms of the Tyrion-esque Great Conversations in Elegant Rooms structure of the episode. A little bit more like the cadence of a season one episode. But...

in a way that had like a frenetic forward momentum. Every exchange, every barb felt like it mattered. And we talked about this a lot with Chris on Talk the Thrones, available to watch on the New Ringerverse YouTube channel or on Spotify. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Check it out if you haven't. The Dance of the Dragons is the Targaryen war of succession. It is a family civil war. Yeah.

And so it was always about fissures. It was always about strife. Fractures. Fractures and fissures. Signs and portents. Plots and schemes. And the same thing. But what I love so much about this episode and what is so dramatically rich and ultimately will give this season and this story a level of, like, depth and vibrancy and life and for us, anxiety and tension minute to minute, scene by scene, episode by episode, is that it's

is the shattering of the trust not only across the divide, but inside of each camp. Yeah, it's choose a side. It's team green versus team black, but it's Otto versus Egon. It's Verniera versus Damon. We are watching the crumbling of

of each group that chose to align. And so who will be able to make their way back to each other or form some sort of new alliance that they can rely upon? The aspect of the disintegrating structures there that also hinged on like a generation gap. There was a lot of talk, especially in the Otto Egon, Kristen sequences of the episode, about ageism.

Yeah. That was fascinating to track. And so, like, I just thought this episode, and the more I've rewatched it, the more I've loved it and really found myself gripped by it. Because it's not only, like, a great way to push us into the rest of the season. Every exchange felt like a rich character study. And I'm not sure if you know this. You love a character on an arc? Yeah.

Love a character on an arc. So this was a great episode. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I think to your point, this idea, the closed caption that starts this episode is muffled chaos. I think that's such a good description. No notes. Description of just like everything's going on. When we talk about the fractions and fissures inside of...

inside of the this is our version of the t-shirt I was already designing the merch in my head it's not going to be official merch because we don't have time for that but by the end of the season you will have a signs important blah blah factors fantastic like spoiled my surprise that I was crafting inside my head while you were talking that's okay we'll have it um

You love a t-shirt. I do. But I think that... I love merch. Muffled chaos. This idea of also crumbling institutions because, like, you know, the blockade causing chaos among the small folk in terms of the day-to-day operation of the city. You know, we hear from Hugh the Smith that we met last week, his wife Kat, who we meet this week, and she's talking about, like,

what are people doing for a chicken? You know, what's going on? Allison, we're not hearing much from the church right now. We don't like, what is the church as an institution doing for us right now? Not much, right? What is, what is the Lord Commander of the Kings card, you know, as an institution doing for us? Not, not much. So that idea of like all the things that make a society. Yes. All feeling, um,

The fissures and fractures running through it. I can't wait for the t-shirt. So thank you in advance. You're welcome. Thank you in advance. Okay. That was the taste. That was the sprinkling of the garnish on the soup. We did get the chicken. Yeah, we had to walk a really long way and it cost a fuckload. We've also got some goat stew waiting for you. Carrots? It is time to head to the bowels of a pleasure den for the deep dive.

In the bowels of a pleasure den. That's what gets you in the mood. When you go to the bowels of the pleasure den, that's what gets you going. Amazing. Okay, Jo, we have to start where the episode began. Yeah, Muffle Chaos. Muffle Chaos. I have to be honest with you. The Red Keep post Blood and Cheese. Yeah.

It's not the vibe for me. Oh. It doesn't seem like... You're like, my ashes! The kind of calming, serene, mellow space that I need. Oh yeah, you're known for your calm, serene mellows. Jo. Yeah. Lots of just bloody blanket moving down the hall action. Yeah. Very unsettling hound sniffing a garment sequence. Yeah.

I have to ask you, where was this level of attention and oversight when... Let me get into my best Kristen Cole headspace here. J. Harris was being murdered. Amazing. Murdered. You got the cocaine gleam in your eyes and everything. Murdered in his bed. I need to take a...

hot second to speak to our listeners. Are you ready? Here we go. Folks, we love to hate Kristen Cole on this podcast. Please do not ruin that joy by directing any of that towards Fabian Frankel doing an incredible job as Kristen Cole. Please, I

I know none of our listeners are doing this, but the fact that Fabian Frankel has had to like moderate his comments on Instagram because people are confusing fact and fiction. It's a story we've heard again and again and again with actors and the characters they played. But it's just sort of like, don't make me stop hating Kristen Cole. Just so let's all just enjoy hitting the worst person in Westeros together and leave the actor out of it. OK, that's all I have to say. PSA.

Jo, how did this in general, this opening stretch, set the mood for you for the episode? I loved it because... So I mentioned that Claire Kellner did this episode, The Green Council, and re-watching that episode, the...

This Ramin Djawadi score here where we're like heavy on the cello, quiet, like the score overwhelms the soundscape. Yeah. But it is also like this very quiet sort of – it's not frantic music. Right.

So it reminds me a lot if you rewatch that sequence of the little boy running through the Red Keep to let people know that Viserys is dead, right? It reminds me of that. You know, he didn't spill his ashes, but, you know, who's to say? And then, and the score there, I mean, Javadi just, like, being a king. But then, like, it has to also remind us of the Winds of Winter, one of our shared favorite episodes of Game of Thrones, which has a similar sort of...

let Ramin Djawadi cook vibe to it. The score of the beginning of Winds of Winter is the best. I've been rooting around. I haven't been able to figure out what the title of this track is. I can't wait for the whole season two score to drop on Spotify wherever you get your scores. But I'm excited for what he will call this particular track. I think it's one I'm going to definitely want to revisit. Yeah.

I also want to shout out, amidst all the muffled chaos, Detective Amon. Yeah, this is good. Just looking around for clues, seeing that his inner sanctum has been violated. Yet another note for blood and cheese. Not that they need them anymore. They're where the notes can't reach them. But, you know, if you're entering from a given secret passage, maybe close the door behind you. I did like not only that, but the picking up, like the go over to the map.

And going under and finding the one coin that was left. Like, it's a clue of, oh, who would take the coins? Yeah. Who would take the coins? Yeah. Who would be moved to take the coins? Someone who is desperate or whatever. But also the shot of the coin is covering one eye and his patch is covering the other eye. I mean, once again, Claire Kilmer, great stuff. We did get an email from Mikal who wanted to say…

I kind of like prepare for that. I know I'm looking over there as though I expect to see a raven actually traveling in, though that will be the effect that our viewers are treated to. I know. The video team is really crushing it. John is just this sensational animation. I'm sorry. By the video team. John Richter is crushing it. Okay.

I really can't say enough good things about the opening 15 or 20 minutes of the episode. It was such a raw, honest portrayal of people crushed between the millstones of grief and politics. The choice to begin with the impact on the castle servants was especially canny. It grounded everything that followed in a sense of wordless, chaotic terror. An excellent base note for the royal response. And I love that. I just think. And it also has to make us think about like.

Because we're about to see, obviously, a prince loses temper. But it has to make us think of what the brothel madam, whose name is Sylvie, at the end of the episode says, you know, when princes lose their temper, it's small folk who suffer. So we see just the brutalization of these innocent castle employees. Yeah.

And then the rat catchers, all the rat catchers being hung later. What is life like for the small folk inside and outside of the keep in King's Landing and beyond? We are really starting to feel that impact keenly. And then, of course, the impact inside of each camp. Let's talk about King Aegon, second of his name. Aegon the Conqueror, babe!

Who is, when we first joined him in this episode, absolutely annihilating, blitzing, disintegrating into dust. Papa Viserys's sprawling Lego set. This wonderful stone model of old Valeria that we watched build and build. Viserys, I'm not sure if you know this, Jo.

The stonemasons did all the work. He only poured over the plants. He only poured over the plants. But the symbolism of this, of course, is so rich. Not only one more way inside of this episode we'll get, obviously, to the, uh, you're my dad's hand and I don't need you. I need another hand.

blowout. Yeah. But this new era, right? Out with the old, in with the new. And then also, of course, the symbolic imagery of this crumbling dynasty because even as Viserys was pouring over the plants and overseeing this construction, he was a student of history. We talked about this a lot in season one. Do you mind your histories? If we don't mind our histories, it will do the same to us as what he said in the series premiere to Rhaenyra when talking about

The fact that they should never have trifled with dragons, this might, this power, one that brought Valyria its doom. And then, of course, in episode two of season one, when he and Alicent are bonding. Is that what they call it? Courtship can come in many forms in a Game of Thrones story. And she asked him. Sometimes it's your dad being like, put on your dead mom's dress. Put on your dead mom's dress. Stop biting your nails. Ted to the king. You're the most comely girl at court.

She asked him, while looking at that model, do you believe that Westeros can be another Valyria? And he said, that depends whether you speak of the Freehold at its height or at its fall. So when we saw Viserys drop that stone dragon, we talked about what it meant.

What a poor tenant felt like. And now apply that. Yes, back in season one. And now we apply that at scale. The king, the person who put on the conqueror's crown, the person who wields Blackfire, the person who sits the Iron Throne, obliterating his own legacy without a thought.

Quite a note to start the episode on. I think also we talked last week about some things they said in the, you know, House of the Dragon built special feature on YouTube that you can watch every week about the way in which

Alison had not. Helena did a massive remodel when she moved in Alison's room. It's just like bug stuff galore, right? So it's just like real Helena bug girl stuff in her room. Alison did not do much to remodel Rhaenyra's room, and we can just continue to ponder as to why that might be the case. Aegon didn't do much to remodel Viserys's room, obviously. The model, the huge Lego model is still there. He got rid of the books.

Books out. Classic. Dragon Tapestry in. Dragon Orgy is in. Sorry, Mom. Allison couldn't get those seven-pointed stars everywhere. Had to hold on to the true art somewhere. And so with the books and the scrolls out, and then now the model out, this is like real let's shove dad's hobbies out of my room. Yeah.

We're going to talk a lot about – we were both thinking a lot about Tywin Lannister when we think about all the missteps that Otto makes in this episode. And so then, of course, I'm thinking about our guy, Joff. And did this make you think of when Joffrey takes Widow's Wail and hacks the book, The Lives of the Four Kings, that Tyrion gives him a book of important history. Yes. A book every king should read. Every king should read at his wedding breakfast. Yeah.

And Joffrey takes Widow's Wail, half of Ned Stark's historic sword, and hacks his book to confetti. Yeah, absolutely. And it made me be like, pal, I know you're about to die, and I'm so excited after you disrespected this book this way. Yeah, I think it's a great comp. Like, not thinking about the lesson that should be heeded. And I do think, like, we're going to talk about a lot today what Otto does right and where he sheds the board more clearly and also where he errs, where he missteps. Yeah.

And it seems clear that Aegon and Otto are not well-suited as a pair. But the fact that Aegon is all sharp edge of the blade, no room for...

taking a beat, strategy, tactics. Ravens. I want to spill blood, not ink, another big theme of the episode. And so it's, of course, not a surprise. We do see him in multiple moments in this episode weeping. He is in grief. We will talk about the scene at the end of the episode that is heartbreaking when he is crying alone in front of his fire and his own mother crying.

can't bring herself to comfort him. But at the beginning of the episode in particular, it's not just the mourning, it's the rage. It's the bloodlust. Some of the things we hear him say, they dare strike at me. I am the king. Fire from the sky, this is war, I declare war. What would Tywin, speaking of Tywin, Jo, say to Aegon?

Any man who must say, I am the king, is no true king. So as a tone setter at the opening here, gives us a lot of mood, vibe, and a Lego set that thankfully was a replica of the... It's only a model. Of the other one. Yeah, the original, the original...

That was a relief to hear. I know. The original Valyria model they built has been preserved and carefully placed in boxes and will generally go in a museum somewhere. But yeah, they built this replica. My favorite part about watching them build that replica on the House of the Dragons built YouTube...

thing was the dusting of powder all around it so that they could really spray up when Aegon hit it. Great stuff. Love it. Okay, next scene. Yeah. Alice and Tenato, daughter and father, just sharing another completely normal, very chill conversation. The gates are shut. The search is underway. And dad's got a take.

It's an odd one. It's a bracing one. We mustn't be shaken, Jo. We mustn't be shaken by an intruder entering the royal chambers to kill the heir to the Iron Throne in his bed as his mother was made to watch. We mustn't be shaken. You and I are a partnership, right? And sometimes if you're distraught, I try to silver line things for you, right? So it's like, listen, some good may yet come of this.

I'm just going to start saying that to you whenever anything goes awry. Some good may have come of it. It was wonderful. We might spin this in our favor somehow. We mentioned this in Talk of the Thrones, but I think it's worth mentioning again how good Olivia Cooke is in this moment when she says what they've done to my girl. Her like...

sob, like that hysterical sort of gasping for breath kind of sobbing response. And Allison and Kristen, their guilt, their shame is very present throughout the entire episode. What do they do? We'll get to it. Okay. We'll get to it. Were they somewhere they shouldn't have been? Doing something they shouldn't have been doing? You can feel that in that line too, what they've done.

to my girl, the culpability that Alicent herself carries. Like we talked last week about the book to show change of Alicent's not being there. And you feel in a line like that, in a moment like that, how that parting and that separation actually then like amplifies. But also just like Alicent, again, you know, I'll make this Lucille Bluth comp again, like

Allison has always preferred Helena to the boys. Yeah. Right? That is so clear in every scene that she shares with her kids in season one. And we'll talk about Allison as a mom and the very understandable reasons why she might not be as warm of a mother as Rhaenyra is. There are things that

Like, these are not children born of love. These are children born of, like, a rotting corpse running on top of her. You know what I mean? And, like, from the moment we met Allison, when she looked like she was about 14, juggling a screaming, like, baby, she's just like, okay. But Helena, she's always had, like, a soft spot for, cared for her daughter more than her sons, blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, it's like what they've done. She's like, who cares about my girl? Jehersy's dead. So, who cares? Yeah.

What they've done to my girl. Yeah. The one I actually cared about. I have some notes in the later pre-funeral procession scene on how Alicent maybe channels and manifests that care. No, I'm not saying she's like...

Mother of the Year, nor are most people Parent of the Year on this show, but like what I understand about... Check out Trial by Content on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, Damon winning two weeks in a row is... He's on a tear, on a charisma tear. But like I think that Helena... What Alison Dunham does with Helena, not to like jump too far ahead, but what she does with her...

This is classic Alicent. Oh, yeah. She only knows how to obey. Yeah. And she's just like passing that down. Playing the cycle. Yeah. Exactly. The cycle forward. Where's the Gen Zers in her castle are like, who says I have to do that?

Speaking of cycles, Joe, obviously our original Game of Thrones series is in the future of the timeline, but it's in our past. So we bring that experience to this show. And I think a lot of us were probably thinking about Cersei when Alicent was talking about this idea of being punished. Now, Otto here does not. He's like, well,

What sin? And then later he's like, I don't want to know. So he's in a little bit of a different place here. I do not care to hear of it. And he will be later when it comes to how his daughter may have elapsed. But that Cersei-Tyrion conversation from season two of Game of Thrones, sometimes I wonder if this is the price for what we've done for our sins. Which characters are internalizing some level of

culpability and then which are not, which carry shame and are able to then maybe like heed or learn something from that and which, like Kristen, just then project that into manipulating and gaslighting another person. It's a fascinating thing to track in a story where terrible things happen all the time. And it's interesting with characters like, I want to watch Alison. Alison's one to watch. But like with characters like Kristen and

I mean, Damon has like no shame or responsibility. It was a mistake. Kristen has shame, but no responsibility. You know what I mean? So it's like my ideal is take responsibility for what you've done here. And is that something that Allison is capable of? I'm not sure. Yeah. But like that, the distinction between...

I don't really care if you're wracked with guilt and shame, if that then manifests in toxicity spewed outwards. Yeah, exactly. And then Kristen, you send Eric off to his death because, you know, some fucked up way of channeling your guilt. Yeah, and so many of that auto, we must play the board before us line and idea from...

season one feels like another one of those, like the Masaria, you're blaming me because like the other people are just further out of reach idea that just applies to every character as a way to rationalize

any sort of misdeed or misstep. We'll talk about Amon's later, but he actually does express a level of remorse that was really illuminating to hear, but he does it in a... Privately. Private, contained space where he feels like he can be who he is. He's not saying that when he sits down at the small council table. He's not going to Rhaenyra to apologize. It's an eye-patch-off-only moment. Sapphire, only on display. Yeah.

Otto is not just ready to say some good yet may come of this to his daughter. He's ready to reveal his plans in full to the small council. So let's head to the small council chamber, Joe, where the greens are gathering, where Aegon has, I would say, a frankly valid question for the room. Where the fuck was everyone while my son, the heir to the Iron Throne, was murdered as he slept? And I would like to shout out

Tylan Lannister, as Aegon talks about the harm that awaited for just jumping in to say, were you also threatened, Your Grace? I got an amazing Tylan moment. Absolutely. I don't know. Read the room and just stay quiet. New acoustics in the studio made that like literally ring in my ears.

Yeah, where was Aegon? I mean, where was Kristen Abed with the Dowager Queen? Where was Aegon sprawled on the throne, surrounded by the Pussy Posse and numerous members of the Kingsguard? Talking about Aegon the Dragon Shock, untamable beast. If he had been Abed with his wife, mayhap they would have been guarded. But yeah, here we are. Ironrod.

Also, very prone to a misstep at the small council. Just like, your grace, are you sure it was Rhaenyra? Let's not rush to conclusions. Kings have a lot of enemies. Thanks, Ironrod, for reminding me that it could have been anyone. It could have been you.

Could have been you. Do you think Laris heard that from the, like, the little secret passage in the wall where he was no doubt, like, crouched and been like, I get to torture all of them for information? Yeah, the King's Confessor didn't get to use any of his tools, you know? Blood was just ready to cough up Damon's name with a quickness. And he had so many beautiful tools just ready to go. He unrolled it like, do you watch Top Chef?

No, but like fancy knives? Yeah. When they unroll and pack your knives, it's time to go. That reminded me of that. Great stuff. I wonder how Laris would do a last chance kitchen. Probably pretty well. Yeah. Probably pretty well. 100%. Okay, we're going to talk about Aegon. We're going to talk about Otto. Let's talk about the state that we find Aegon in. Would Laris win Survivor? He would either be eliminated. He's physically hindered, but like... Immediately because he was playing too hard, which freaks people out. Or...

He would win. He's like an extreme outcome. He's a hide-himself-behind-someone-who-wins-a-bunch-of-immunity-challenges. Yeah, he would know how to build an alliance. A lie himself with someone who's really strong and then make the argument at the end, I played the mind game and I fucked all of you. Absolutely. You gotta respect me. The only... The thing that would only... It would depend on who he's playing with because...

You know, as the Alicent to Otto to Aegon sequences has revealed quite plainly, he's not reluctant to make the pitch, right? He's going to tell everyone their final two. And so if any of them are talking to each other. It's you and me to the end.

Lyra might be. He might be in trouble. But he would definitely get everybody to tell him about the advantages they had found. He would know where every hidden immunity item was. Like whether he found them or not. What's the plan this week? He's never going to be sidelined. No. He's in on every vote. In on every vote. Great. Props, get on it. It sounds like we landed on your next theme. Egg on the second Targaryen. Team Green versus Team Black survivor. I love it. Choose a side.

They do typically start with three smaller tribes these days. Small folk. Small folk. Two small folk. Yeah. Let's get Hugh in there. Adam. Alan. So Aegon describes his son as his legacy. We talked about this last week, the way he was eager to bring Jaehaerys to the small council, to start training him, to provide this tutelage and just this embrace that he never got from Viserys. And that was really present here, too. Not only the grief with which he describes my little son's body, but...

The way that he talks about legacy and it reinforces that he is thinking about being king, about what comes next in a way that he never was when he was growing up because he did not think that he was fit for it, that he was suited for it, that it would ever be his. That he was in consideration at all. How are you personally feeling about?

Because, by the way, the way that succession works, it was Rhaenyra before him, but then it was also Jace and Luke and Joff and Aegon and Viserys. There were like a million people between him and the Iron Throne. He wasn't second in line. He was, you know, a gajillionth in line. So this was never supposed to be him. How are you feeling, now that it is him, about the way the show is engendering

for this character who we saw, you know, we loved the Titanic performance, we loved the Tom Glincardi performance, but we saw Aegon do terrible things, deplorable things in season one. And yet we find ourselves so far this season, episode one, we have a moment where we're like,

Could Egon? No. Like, be a decent, he's interested in hearing the petitions and working with the small folks. I was never, I was never there. Oh, we're heartbroken watching him grieve. Are you fine, are you at all swept up in feeling for him? Yeah, I feel for him. Tenderly. The same way that I feel occasionally for Damon. Right. Like, this is something that. But it is a difference, like you mentioned Joffrey. There's never a moment where we felt for Joffrey. No, no, no. Ever. Absolutely. And I've never once felt for Kristen Cole. Maybe once. Yeah.

Yeah, it's definitely different from Joff, good old Joffrey. And, like, it's... And I love the performance. I think Tom is doing an incredible job. I think the writing is really incredible to give him that dimensionality. But that was true for, like, Tye Tennant as well. Oh, yeah. We had a little less time with Tom Glen Carney's incarnation of Aegon, and mostly what was stacking up was terrible. Yep. I sexually assaulted someone. I love...

A child. My little son's body. Let's talk about all the kids that you love to watch fight in the pits. Like, what are we talking about? The moment when Eric and Arik look over and we see this little Targaryen-haired bastard sitting in the corner at the fighting pit, etc. But even in season one, we did have these moments where, and again, it's in that harrowing stretch with Diana, but where he's like...

voice quivering telling alison that it's never been enough that he's never felt like he was enough for alison or like saris or saying he had 20 years my father never wanted this for me like why on earth you know but also my whole life to change his mind and he never did yeah of course and i think it is doing nothing to make me forget all the shit that he's done it is doing genuinely nothing to make me think that he would be a good king because the way in which he was sort of

currying favor with fishwives with the various like small folk who were petitioning to him. That's something that I agree with Allison. I feel like he will eventually get bored of. Mm-hmm.

And also, he's doing it selfishly so that they can think well of him. He's not doing it because he genuinely thinks well, like, is thinking of them. Right. I think what it is doing is amplifying the tragedy of the dance, the tragedy of this tale of a family who they so often failed each other. And if Aegon had not... We are not Team Green. We do not believe that Aegon had a claim to the throne over Rhaenyra. So not saying if Aegon had been named Aeron, made to feel his entire life that he was being trained to be king. But if he hadn't always felt like

Like, remember the moment where Viserys in his addled state when Rhaenyra goes to make her final plea to him in the middle of the night? Like, my only child.

Like, that was how Egon felt his whole life. So it just, like, it does really heighten, I think, the tragedy of how these characters all failed each other. For all of them. Oh, yeah. What if someone had paid attention to the fact that Helena is a dreamer? What if Aemon hadn't been, like, bullied? You know, like, everyone on Team Green, you know, like, Jace has had it absolutely rough. On both sides, Rhaenyra's saying, no one's here for me. Like, none of them ever felt like they were here.

No, but like I think Jace, despite his like harumph, you won't let me hop on my dragon and go patrolling moment. Like I think Jace, this is the contrast that they're constantly setting up. It's not that I think Alicent is a terrible mom and I don't understand how that could possibly have happened. I understand why everything is so like emotionally constipated on the green side. But the fact, the way that Rhaenyra thus far has been able to nurture and care for her children is,

is something that they keep hammering home for us. And Jace is someone who like, yeah, Jace is a great guy, a guy we really like and look up to and think he's wonderful. That's because he was like raised in a house of love and nurtured, you know? Yeah.

Aegon and Aemon and Helena did not get that life at all. That insecurity that Aegon felt as a result of that is so palpable in this scene too. And projection.

Everyone is projecting this episode. Oh, yeah. And so when he's like, Rhaenyra, like, the small folk will think I'm weak. Rhaenyra will be laughing at me, blah, blah, blah. Sitting on a rock, laughing at me. Aegon was the biggest bully in season one of the kids, you know what I mean? If anyone is, like, sneering and calling people weak, it was Aegon. So this is like a, you know...

The biggest projector in this episode is... He was mocking Helena when they were kids. He was the mastermind behind the pink dread. Yeah, exactly. Despite the other boys being blamed. I mean, the biggest projector, the, like, canon massive projector in this episode is Kristen Cole. We'll talk about that later. But Aegon is doing his fair share of it right here.

The way that that fear and that insecurity is driving him, he worries when you're just laughing at him. He doesn't want to be seen as weak. He can't allow himself to be seen as weak. That will inform so many of the decisions that he makes about that steel fist, about pursuing strength. I do have a question for you. About killing 100 rat catchers. Well, he got the one. Sure. I was happy to tell you he got the one. Do you, which of these, would you say,

Would you like to claim for yourself? We're going to take them both for our new nicknames here on the pod. Which do you want? The Bitch Queen of Bastards or the Smug Cunt of Dragonstone? I think I prefer the Smug Cunt of Dragonstone. Thank you so much. Okay. I'll be the Bitch Queen of Bastards. Guys, can you change our chyrons accordingly? Yeah. Thanks. Appreciate it. Do we need a sticker for your laptop? Bitch Queen of Bastards? Smug Cunt of Dragonstone? Oh, man. I thought that the...

So the divide of Otto starting to unfurl his plan for all to see here of the PR campaign, crisis management, and Egon not wanting anybody to know, which you understand. Like, yeah, you wouldn't want people to know that they were able to get to you in this way, this intimately, right? Yeah.

But there is a naivete at play for young Egg on there because it's like it's another version of the throne room scene in episode one where he thought like. We just don't tell them. They won't know. They won't know. They won't know like that he could believe for seconds. The crown prince is away. He's with Darren. Yeah.

Being fostered somewhere is fun. What did you make, Jo, of auto-inverting? When we talk about this idea of strength and weakness, perception, crucially of perception, right? What is power? Takes us back to so many conversations in Thrones. Yeah. This idea of the trick, the illusion, the shadow on the wall.

Otto thinks seriously about this. And he was the force behind much of that season one idea that we love talking about. It's from Fire and Blood. It was present in the show. All the signs of legitimacy belong to Egon. Hmm.

He's spinning that on its head here. He's saying a hasty coronation, a dragon escaping the pit. Look, looks like Renise did do something. Demon to wound demon. This was really funny. The people see an omen. What did you think of Otto spinning that strength onto its ass here? This is Otto's gift. He's a spin doctor. He's a PR genius. He's not a great manager of men, a manager of people. No.

He does not know how to, like, move people one way or the other. He's a project manager, not a people manager? He's, like, a big message guy. Okay. Yeah. He's coming up with the campaign. Yeah. He's not ready to mobilize the team. No. Let's talk about his plan. Blame Rhaenyra whether or not she had anything to do with it. That is not a relevant point for Otto. You mean to blame Rhaenyra.

He can't wait to tell them of her depravity. We love the word depravity. We loved that conversation between Damon and Rhaenyra in the Driftmark episode. Like, what depravity are we all capable of? Well, let's turn that idea against them here. Jaehaerys will do more for us now, Otto says, than a thousand knights in battle. But...

don't worry. Don't say that I don't mourn. He was my grandson. I love him. One of our listeners was quick to point out that it's not his grandson. Thank you. It's his great grandson. Yeah. He's his grandson a couple times in this episode, but it is his great grandson. So I don't know if it's just like it's an economy of language or if it's

Otto just trying to make himself seem younger. That's from our listener, Sean. But yeah, I mean, I think we talked about this in Talk of the Thrones, but Otto, how much this has in common with Otto's moments immediately after Viserys's death. Yeah. When he says, we grieve for Viserys the peaceful. Yes. Our sovereign, our friend, but...

He has left us a gift. With his last breath. I brought you a gift. He impressed upon the queen his final wish that his son Aegon should succeed him as lord of the seven kingdoms. It's sort of like, but where's the opportunity?

And that's always been his game. And like, again, we... Putting Alicent in after Emma's death. Oh, yeah. Get out your mom's dress. We've already got the dresses. Chaos is a ladder. Have you heard this before? No, this is new to me. What is this from? Are you familiar with this concept? Chaos is a ladder that bad things happen. Yeah. And you can use it as a rung to climb to the outcome that you desire. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's the question I have for you. Because, look, this will eventually blow up in Otto's face. He will be ousted as Hand.

In this very episode. But. Again. Before the. Fired. Again. From the same job. In the same room. The same room is brutal. If I were Otto, I would no longer take meetings in there. I know he marched in, but. Yeah. I would say book a different conference room. Yeah. I don't like the vibes in here. No. The funeral procession is a successful gambit. Oh, yeah. It's brilliant.

Aegon will undo that good work, as Otto is happy to tell them. They will have a very heated exchange. Idiot! Yeah. Were you struck? I want to be clear that we supported Rhaenyra going off to find Luke's body. Oh, yeah. We were not in the Daemon camp of...

oh, the queen is off mourning looking for her dead kid while I'm here trying to win a war and lead a war council. But politically, terrible. Tactically? Absolutely abysmal. The distinction, the contrast feels stark between how Team Green is ready to mobilize her towns and Team Black...

Really doesn't have a game plan. But what's so key about, yes, I mean, that's true across the board with Team Black. She doesn't have an official Hand of the Queen. That's, like, Damon's kind of role, but it's not, like, official. She doesn't have someone on the PR side, which is why it's interesting that she's, like, talking to Miss Aria in this episode. You know, to Miss Aria, like...

these things about things these ways in this big picture way but she doesn't have a Lara she doesn't have an Otto she doesn't have any like one who is like really good at schemes and plots obviously Damon hired two chuckle fucks and like really fucked things up you know what I mean it was a mistake eat your goblet I was I was clear in my instructions

Scott. That was Claire in my instruction. So she doesn't have a strategist over there. And she sorely needs that. She has Damon who loves to go off half cock. But let's just talk about it. Let's just talk about his schemes, which is like,

I don't know, frighten my wife's horse until she hits her head on a rock. Like, they're so lucky they got away with the Laenor thing. I mean, that also was like a hasty, terrible plan. Whereas, you know, Hail Hail, Jaehaerys, the dead conqueror babe is like a really good PR move. Oh my god. Yeah.

Jairus the Conqueror, babe. Baseball seam there. Brutal. Otto Joe also, he... Did it change your baseball comp which you've made now like so many times? It looks exactly like the stitching on a baseball. I can't shake it. I'm waiting when I rewatch this now for Annie from Bull Durham to pop in and talk about the rosary beads and the stitches on a baseball being the same number. In behind the scenes, to be clear, in the behind the scenes, they were like, we've used this ancient medieval...

wire looping stitching technique. The metal is, yeah. Yeah, they're like, oh, we studied, we poured over the ancient techniques and Mallory's like, looks like a baseball to me, pal. First of all, that's a compliment. Yeah.

Baseball is my greatest passion. Good old baseball head to head. By the way, speaking of that House of the Dragons built insight into the neck stitching and everything, the way they made that entire prosthetic and the rat catcher prosthetics, that was

It was amazing. But you're wild! I mean, I don't know why, but I definitely thought that was like literally that child. Same. On the carriage. It's only a model. Ugh.

Totally normal podcast where you have used that line to describe the Lego set and the dead prince. The dead prince. Speaking of characters who are dead or about to be dead, on the blood front, when Laris comes in and says, listen, we found a guy he was walking and seeking to leave with the princess head in a sack. Fairly incriminating. He didn't even try to say, like, I don't know how that got there. What? He must have picked up something.

the satchel by mistake. I guess I wasn't watching my luggage the whole time before the plane boarded. I'm so sorry. Otto, really eager for Laris to work his craft. He wants information. He wants intel again. He is right to want this. I'm also eager for Laris to work his craft. Aegon, tiring already.

The diplomacy, the tactics, the deliberation. He wants to act, oh, always studying. Yeah. Always protocol, he says here. So this is priming us for the fire. Back to Alicent. Yeah. Because the council meeting ends with Otto saying, the king is a mess and we can't let the people see that.

He's happy to tell Aegon that he's already thought of as weak, but he doesn't actually want to risk people seeing him in this state. And so instead, because the patriarchy is quite real, and also because Otto still sees Alicent and Helena as pawns that he can control, and he is starting to have to confront the fact that Aegon is not that,

The way that he wants him to be. They should all agree that we should not have to put the king through this. Should not have to suffer through. But let's rule out the queen who was literally there. Alison. And her mom. I need you. Helena, get her ready. Yeah. This is horrifying. And so Alison, when she hears this from Otto in the small council chamber, says that she does not wish to be a spectacle. Right. Right.

But concedes ultimately and then forces Helena, my girl, weeping over her girl and then going in and saying, you're going to have to do this. I don't want to do it either. But this is our… Where matching black fails. It'll be very cute. Duty. Yeah. Duty. Where is duty? Where is sacrifice? Yeah.

Yeah. It's trampled under the prince's rolling head that we all definitely thought was going to come off when he hit that pothole. I knew a moment of terror. Sure. Yeah. Gross. This public performance of grief. Yeah. Yeah. It's theater. Absolutely. This theater, but also this idea that like, Egon is excused from this. This horrifying, like, funhouse mirror distorted scene.

version of Rhaenyra and her family's private funeral for Luke last week. Just a handful of loved ones by a pyre. Quietly throwing figurines into a fire. Okay.

But who's absent in both cases? Agon is absent here. Damon. Damon was absent last week. It's just, you know, the men are never asked. Off to share his very clear instructions. Whether it's public or private grief or emotional processing, these men are constantly not asked, required, not required to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Jace is there because he's a very good boy. Jace.

Jace is wonderful. Yeah, they have to, they don't want to be present, but also they are allowed to be exempt. I don't want it. I thought it was so upsetting. We see Helena holding this shroud that she has made for her son, weeping. And when she receives this mandate from her mom. The shroud, which we should say she was stitching last week. So we have no confirmation one way or another if she was stitching it knowing it would be a funeral shroud, but like,

We watched her stitch this last week when Aegon went in to be like, where's my son? Where's the boy? You know, she was working on this. Did she know that this would be wrapped around old baseball head? MDD, mini dream dispatch. Yeah, mini dream dispatch. Deeply dismaying and upsetting to have to confront that. And I thought the moment, I was really struck by the moment where

When Allison is explaining their duty, why they must do this, Helena, because her grief is sincere, Allison's grief is sincere, but they are then made to trot that grief out for all to see, said that she didn't know them, right? She doesn't want to be near these people. She doesn't know them. And it just, like, makes you think of, well, what is she getting from the people she does know that she is near? Nothing. It was devastating. Not a thing. It's heartbreaking. And then she picks up the little toy. Yeah.

A little elephant carving. Do you think they call them elephants or do you think they call them oliphants? Oliphants. In this world. Let's go with oliphants for sure. Okay. So it makes us think of the little toy that Joff, when he's in Jace's arms, puts on Luke's funeral pyre last week. It's a tether to that. It makes us think, certainly, on the toy carving front, how could it not make us think of Davos carving the stag for Shireen, which he will then find forever.

Human body gone completely. A wooden toy intact. Even so, emotionally very... Some strong resin on it, I think. Yeah. Strong resin. Strong resin. And then, of course, like elsewhere in this episode, shortly after this, we will see Rhaenyra playing with, sitting with young Aegon and Viserys. Oh, that's a name. That came out of nowhere. Just every time I think of it. He's like...

I don't know about kids. Sarah's meeting them was just so heartbreaking but funny. I love your emotional resins and echoes. I love that for you. On the other hand, literally what other toys are there in Westeros? They're all only playing with carved animals. There's no Bop-It in Westeros. So maybe there should be. Bop-It. This is where we get that like Rhaenyra. Yeah. Rhaenyra with the blonde babies. Yeah. I have a sonnet.

Egon and Viserys, her little Arian poster children that she has. Her children with Damon. Yes. That's her like version of Alicent with the candles, right? Her like sitting with these boys and just like thinking about Helena. I would never – Helena in Innocent. I would never do this, right? Thinking about Helena. It was such a relief to hear her say that. I know. Not that we were surprised. I mean, we said that last week. Thinking about Jaehaerys.

You know, similarly to Allison sitting there with candles. Looking at her little babies and thinking of what horror just unfolded. We're not ready to leave a little baseball hat behind quite yet. It is time for the funeral and it is time for the confession. Because, like we said, before the rat catcher misstep, we do watch Otto's...

PR genius? I work here. RIP the conqueror, babe. Should the Herald have said that instead? Maybe so. The masses have gathered, Jo. The throngs are here to watch young Jaehaerys' procession to the Dragonpit to be honored as a Targaryen prince. To watch them break it all down to this sick beat. Let's hear it. A Brannirra Targaryen!

Defiler of the Innocent is very tough. We are in Spain. Yes. Right? They filmed this in Spain. We're not in...

Right. But were you thinking about Cersei and the Walk of Shame? Of course. Yeah. Cersei and the Walk of Shame, through King's Landing, from the Sept to the Red Keep, the cow pie to Joffrey's face. Well, I'm always thinking about the cow pie to Joffrey's face. Favorite cherished moment. Anytime we watch members of the royal family make their way

and through the small folk. First of all, the question of are they in control? Are they seeking to be? How are they attempting to frame some sort of map?

Think even of like just like a great, you know, Tyrion and Bronn and Tyrion observing them talking about the twisted demon monkey. And he's like, yeah, I'm digging this. And then Bronn's like, they're talking about you. Like what the connection is between the small folk and the royal family is always so interesting to see. But also, yeah. Perception in both directions. And also what a like a tenuous tether this is. Otto is trying to…

take control of and use to his own will manipulate the emotions of the small folk, right? That is what he's doing here. Something that we saw in the trailer that's not here and

Actually, Alison and Helena are wearing different dresses, so it's actually – it is a different scene. But there's a sequence that they used a lot in the trailer of Alison Tornira, green dresses, black veils, sort of like fleeing from chaos in the street. It's not the same scene. It's something that's going to happen later. It's going to be some sort of mirror of this moment where –

Where Otto is trying to control, similarly to like someone trying to set atrop an uncontrollable dragon. Yeah. He's trying to control this very volatile force, which is the small folk, which is the

emotions of the people and what happens when you lose control right of that you know it's just a very dangerous thing to try to wield as a weapon yeah that was part of what i loved about this episode because whether it's trying to control the small folk trying to control egg on the king yeah that's auto's version a king that a king that auto spent

Aegon's entire life trying to put on the throne. It's a very, like, Tony Stark, we create our own demons kind of idea. And I love, it wouldn't be as interesting of a story if everybody's version of lost control hubris was some sort of magical tether to a mighty beast. The fact that it can come in these many forms, that for Otto, it's seeking to control a family member.

Seeking to control the people. The masses. Of the capital. Yeah. Like, that it's a human interpersonal thing is, I love that about this story. Because everybody has that error. It just manifests differently for all of us. And those are the tools he has at his disposal. Exactly. As a Hightower. This idea of, like, we get the title, Rhaenyra the Cruel, right? Mm-hmm.

This is straight propaganda to, again, a sick drumbeat in the front of the parade here. That this is like... Behold! This is Otto spitting the message. Yep. And this goes back to our response to Blood and Cheese last week when we were like, this is so different from the book. Why did they tone it down so much? I'm not so much...

It's not like it didn't occur to me that this is propaganda. We've been talking throughout about this idea of, like, the various things that happen in the book and the unreliable narrators of the book and the way in which things are spun to support one ruler or another. We can't always believe what we see. We got this email from our listener, Bronwyn. Wow.

Who says,

Bronwyn earlier in her email was like, I was one of those book readers who was like,

Oh, this is blood and cheese. And so on the one hand, I don't think that like that idea escaped us last week. I think, you know, we're always thinking about the various unreliable narrations. But I think it was more like and that's interesting.

But that moment in the story, like the moment of Vhagar chomping Luke, whether or not Eamon did it intentionally, still lands as this huge TV moment for us. For sure.

still feels like a little inert to me despite you know this added layer of like okay the version we get in the book fire and blood where according to the book alicent is there helena had to choose there was a whole extra child that doesn't exist like all of that yeah i i like thinking about the the like and ryan condell has given interviews since to this like to the same tune of like

we want to think of the propaganda version than like what could be the actual version. But you still want that version to be like riveting, horrifying television and it just slightly, still slightly missed the mark for me there. Do you know? The, especially as the House of the Dragon TV series expands its focus, which characters are in the mix, which slices of the map are we visiting, et cetera, the propaganda aspect of it will become even more interesting. Like I really, I love what you're,

what you're calling out here. Like, it makes me think a little bit of, and it's interesting, this is an maybe odd character to bring up because Stannis was such a infamous stickler, right? Yeah. But it makes me think a little bit of him, you know, saying, when Ned Stark learned the truth, he only told me. I'm not going to make that same mistake. Spread the word. Spread it. Spread the word that these are bastards born of incest and the Iron Throne is mine by

And think about, like, then how that becomes, right, of course, this seismic threat, the legitimacy of the seat on the throne for Joffrey and then eventually Tommen. And how Cersei, mostly, but the Lannisters at large are operating against, then, that dawning public awareness of maybe who these kids really are until— Maybe how genetics work. Yeah.

Follicularly. The seed is strong until you build toward a point where they decide to embrace it, right? Power is power. Fuck it if people know. And that evolution of when you think you can evade the message that someone else is spreading about you gets back to kind of what you were talking about last week, right? With Amon, with Jamie, or when you maybe have to say, why don't I just try to own it? Yeah. Yeah. Wear it like armor.

Just another word like armor, in a way. Fascinating. Joe, what would you say the response of the small folk is to this propaganda? Are they, like, in the Christopher Ryan...

Oh, interesting. I'm feeling green curious right now, camp. They seem to be quite... Converted. Yeah. Rending of the garments. Yes. Supplication. Weeping and a wailing in the streets. Freely shouting that they would like to curse Rhaenyra's name and that they are feeling deeply for Helaena, Darkwing. Shout out Hugh's extremely hot wife, who we will meet later. She gets a very, like,

clear shot in the crowd that she is there. We'll let her go home with Hugh. Hugh was a sick child and a wife who had to work hard to make that delicious looking soup. But on her way to get the chicken or whatever, she stopped at the Greek parade. Do you think she was just like, this is on my route? Yeah. She's like, well, they block the streets. And she's like, oh, sad. It's like trying to get into this office with all the construction in the morning. Sometimes you discover a new coffee shop on the way. Your commute is what you make of it, you know? Helena.

Let's talk about what is going on with Helena. Panic attack. Full on, full on panic attack. This was absolutely harrowing to watch. Devastating. Devastating. Also, I think we have to be wondering in any given moment, especially that shot of her overhead. Looking up to the veil. And the veil. Were you like, has she seen literally this? Has she seen literally this? Or what is she seeing right now? What's next? Do you know?

Ugh, poor sweet Helena. From the funeral to the confession. Again, easy work for Laris. He shows up. Unrolls the tools. Unrolls the knives. Blood gets one look at one plier. And he's like, it was Damon. And he's like, I've seen season one of Alias. I don't want to go through this. It was Damon. Yeah. I worked with someone else. I can't tell you my accomplice's name, but I am happy to give you his profession. But shout out, Laris.

There's forever thinking of his own career. I really feel I love when he's like, are you going to hurt me? He's like, no. Shot through that moment, which I've rewatched nine times because I'm like the world's number one Laris fangirl. An absolute monster. But I love him through like through the bars and just Matthew Needham's performance of like, no, but I cannot. No.

Speak for his grace. But like, what a gift he's given Aegon. Aegon's going to remember this. Larys gave him this catharsis. Otto's like, chill out and let me do my thing. And Larys is like, come beat this guy's head like a drum. I won't even touch him with a single plier. You get all the honors, my lord. I sent you a screenshot this morning of him just like, Larys is leaning back against the bars, like in just full relaxed mode about to watch a bludgeoning.

He looked like he was having the time of his life. It looked like an absolute Renaissance painting. It was gorgeous. Do you think Blood was wearing shoes? Do you think Larys himself personally removed the shoes? Okay, let's head to Dragonstone, where, for the first time ever, Daemon Targaryen is quiet at a meeting. Couldn't be me. This is the reddest of flags. You thought there was a lot of blood on that blanket and on that mattress. No, this is the...

Trench red warning in the episode. Damon just like... More important... I mean, Matt Smith's smirk game. Unbelievable. Off the charts. Incredible. Wonderful. What got my blood boiling were the men on the Black Council. Oh, man. It's a bunch of dudes. Yeah. Rainy. You know, similar to what Allison said last week. You undercut me at the table of men.

Right? So, Allison's all alone. She's the only woman in the room. Reneer's here. Renise is right there. Yep. And Renise is like, mind yourself. Yeah. Chill. Yeah. Mind yourself. Yep. Yeah.

Bale is also, I think, there, right? I think Bale is maybe down the table or maybe not. But anyway, the point is, is just these, like, yeah, these fucking, these men. Yeah. Bill Segar is why. I mean, here's the thing. Sir Alfred Broome. They have the right, their finger is on the pulse of the nation. Sure. In terms of the response. Like, they are right. But the insinuation. That part is appalling. They are right to note that this is,

a disaster for the blacks. Immeasurably damaging. Right. When Keltigar says that the damage to their position is immeasurable, I don't think that's overstated. But I agree completely, of course, that the way, because Rhaenyra's like, they think I did this? Like, I didn't do this. To Helena? Why is that? To Helena? To Helena, the innocent? Like, to kill a kid when I just lost my kid? Women be crazy. Who knows what they do when their sons are dead, you know? Sir Alfred Bran.

The grieving mom. Like, you know, well, you're like just, you know, you got back from being really upset, flying around on your dragon looking for your dead kid. And so like, yeah, like if you did it, I mean, you know, like... Women? That was... I mean, Rhaenyra was rightly enraged. Yeah, this underscores though how important it is for Rhaenyra to have Rhaenys there. And as you mentioned in last week when we covered that episode, like...

Rhaenys, a hard-won ally throughout and into the end of season one. But now that she's on Team Rhaenyra, she is on Team Rhaenyra. Absolutely. Yeah. And ready, of course, from her own experience to hold the men in low esteem because she's seen how the men of the realm have behaved. And it was one of the things that she was warning Rhaenyra about. So they would send her a

Put the realm to the torch? Then see a woman sit the eye on throne. I mean, you know, like, spot the lie. Spot the lie! You can't yet. You can't. The expressions, we already mentioned Matt Smith, but there's a great Renise staring down. Demon moment, she knows. She clocks it immediately. She's like, you are definitely behind us. Renise and Rhaenyra. The season transition look, or the season, the scene transition look into the next. Rhaenyra being like, huh?

Incredible. That is just a genuinely incredible moment. I thought that was so funny. So let's go to then the private conversation and confrontation between Damon and Rhaenyra. That look builds into the need for an exchange. I really love this. I feel like, I can't remember the circumstances, but I feel like last season...

we did have moments where we're like, why is this not a private conversation? How's this conversation in private? So here we are in the privacy of Rhaenyra's

Easily breachable room. Rhaenyra is better at this than a lot of Game of Thrones characters. I remember so many moments where it's like, we need Jon and Sansa to have a chat before they're in front of everybody, all of the assembled. That's the main one where I'm just like, Team Stark. Let's align. A little pre-pro. Same page. Before we get going. But, I mean, Rhaenyra, even in the season one finale, was like, leave us. We need to get on the same page here. So, yeah, this is an instinct that she has. Jo, what's your favorite?

Scenes from an incest marriage. Let's do it. Scenes from a marriage? Scenes from an uncle and a niece. So we should point out, something we talked about last week is that all of this Rhaenyra stuff is not in the book because as we pointed out last week, Rhaenyra is indisposed from the absolutely traumatic, you know, stillbirth that she experienced. So she's just sort of like out of the action, not really mentioned. Right.

Which I love now, like, thinking about through the lens of, or just the dudes who are penning the histories only cared about what the guys did. Grieving mother. Yeah. What was it say? Surely. She was just sitting in a bedchamber, crying. Icing something. But, like, the...

So anything we get from her last week, the one line, but all the like flying around. That's all new to us. And then this confrontation, her reaction at all to blood and cheese. We talked about this on Talk the Throne. Yeah. We don't see Rhaenyra's reaction to blood and cheese at all. Yes. In the book. So her reaction of like, I would never do this. Yes. This is abject horror. Are you kidding me? Also, Daemon in the book at this point has already fucked off to Harrenhal.

So all of this whole sequence here is show invented and it is... It is a gift. Delicious. It is a gift. It is so good. So the first order of business as we watch this trust crumble between the uncle and the niece who are married to each other is Rhaenyra asking what everybody who watched the show was asking last week, right? What did Daemon say? Exactly. And Daemon is...

has mentioned many times today already, not interested in accepting any responsibility for this. It was a mistake. I was clear in my instructions. I was clear in my instructions. I cannot be responsible for a mistake. It's not just that it was a mistake. It's I cannot be responsible for a mistake. I was clear in my instructions. This is just... And he doubles, triples, quadruples down on that stance throughout the entire exchange. And Rhaenyra...

Flat out. It's not just that they have reached a moment, like an impasse. She just actually does not believe him. This has caused her to look at him in a new way or to at least quiet the voice that used to talk her out of something that she may have observed. She probably already knew. He has weakened her claim.

She says. We can look around in the episode in this stretch and see how true that is. Immeasurable. Immeasurable! And the thing is, Damon's strengthening her claim in addition to the magnetic draw that they had to each other. The hot beach sex. Bells of a pleasure den. Beach sex at my wife's funeral. Very normal.

In addition to all of that. Yeah. The infatuation, the loss, the longing, the desire, the affection. Neat, like, needing Damon, which we talked a lot in season one about how he wanted to be needed. That was the whole thing, right? For him, it's like, I need you to need me. And for her, it's,

You strengthen my claim. Right. You add a level of might and heft and legitimacy. All those symbols of legitimacy that Aegon has, I have Daemon Targaryen on my side. So for Daemon now to not be providing my uncle, the prince of the city. I'm dead serious about this. He was once the heir. I'm now the heir. That's like double heir. I need you, uncle. I cannot face the greens alone. So like that was...

a huge part of this for her was what Daemon gave her, brought her, and how he bolstered her claim and her push. But that's the thing about Daemon always. Yes. The very famous quote about Daemon, like, you know, to some a hero, to others a villain, like that's Daemon's whole thing. The line that I think I quoted on Talk of Thrones, but I'll hit it again from Fire and Blood, one of the chief pillars of support for Rhaenyra's claim was her consort,

Yet Prince Daemon represented one of her greatest weaknesses as well. The prince had made more foes than friends during the course of his adventures. Right.

So that's always, Daemon is, you know, two steps forward, two steps back. And I think it's interesting because Rhaenyra actually has always understood that. The way that she flew against orders to the bridge on Dragonstone in episode two and challenged him in a way that no one else was able to, right? But like they matched each other, as she says, when she was a child. Now I have challenges enough!

Her emotional maturity matched his emotional maturity when she was a child. Now she knows a bit better, like the scientist. So she saw that and understood that clearly and felt that she could work with it, leverage it, amplify it, right? That they were going to be a Mentos in a Coke bottle in a great way.

Right? Like the kind of explosion that propelled forward their claim. That's how I always describe our podcast partnership. Mentos in a Coke bottle? But it's like Mentos in a Diet Coke bottle because that one goes, that's even more explosive. Is that true? Oh, yeah. There's just even more, you should never drink this, but sometimes I do drink it, noxious chemicals that make the Mentos go that much further. Interesting. Yeah. Should we try it?

In what way? Just like get a couple leaders. Here? Well, probably not around all of this equipment. In this beautiful, well-appointed studio? Okay. Parking garage? There's a lot of space here. Jomie's ear. Jomie just heard like social content. Exactly. Sounds like a breakout clip to me. Let's talk about the presence of Viserys in this scene. He is not literally in the room because he is dead.

But he's in the room in all the ways to count, Jo. Looms. Looms the hodge. Looms! He is there in their thoughts. He is there in their words. He is there in their ambitions and their desires and their regrets and their resentments. His presence is inescapable. Just the way that Rhaenyra is definitely there in the room with Criston and Alicent. Slightly differently, but like, yeah, that third present in the room, that is Viserys. Daemon says that he has served Rhaenyra faithfully.

And she says, uh,

was I just a tool with which to grasp at your stolen inheritance? And she just states it plainly here, the theme of the episode. I cannot trust you, Damon. I loved Emma's reading of this line. Because there's like... And there's a boldness here and then the quiet. There's boldness, there's frustration, but there's also just like disappointment. I cannot trust you. This is like one of the great letdowns of her life. I want you to support me and I cannot trust you.

You reached the point where you can't talk yourself out of it anymore, right? You got to look at it plainly. I cannot trust you. Emma talking about the conversations that they had with Claire Kilner about this idea of like female rage and how much Rhaenyra kept a lid on it in season one and how now the pot is like starting to boil over occasionally. And we're seeing sort of that lid rattle on the emotions and the rage that she's not making herself visible.

like, smooth and pleasant, you know? Not that she always was, as, you know, to your point. Viserys certainly never would have called her that, like, pleasant or pliable or something like that, but, like, to Daemon. You are my political headache. Yeah. So you always say to me. You are my political headache! Yeah, yeah, yeah. So great. Viserys, we've talked a lot about, and we will again in this very conversation right here, Viserys and Daemon in season one, in season one, episode one, when Viserys dies.

sends Damon away. And the parallels to that scene in this conversation are abundant. But the other fight, the episode four fight, after the powers of a pleasure dad. You can't keep getting away with it. What did Sarah say to Damon? Arjuna, can I have a spray bottle, please? This is, to orient you if you cannot remember, this is short haircut Damon.

That's right. That's right. But let me give you my treasure crown, Damon. You are no conqueror. You are a plague sent to destroy me. The viscerous Damon relationship, that brotherly love, their desire to be with each other, to forgive something in the other, nobody else around them was willing to forgive. But then the moment where you have to say to the other person, you are a plague sent to destroy me. That is this moment for Rhaenyra now with Damon. Yeah.

He charges toward her and his hand is up and it is, I think, impossible for us not to flash back to the finale. Yeah, and her flinch is sort of perfect. And then he like puts like a loving hand on her face, but the trust is broken. Yeah, and there's that duality of Damon again in a moment like that. One of our listeners, Andrea, noted that this scene, the way it's blocked out,

is almost like a tango, the way that they're just sort of drawn together and separated across the set here. And I just love thinking about it that way. It is devastating and horrifying to watch this connection fall apart, but there is still always between them this passion. Yeah, and a rhythm. A rhythm and a desire for connection. There's desire there. Yeah. And the dance of the dragons. Of the dragons. Yes.

Why would they call it a dance? Oh, Stannis. Oh, man. So Daemon recounts as he makes his way to Rhaenyra here, placing the crown on her head. Did I not put that there? Did I not say to all the queen? No, it was someone else. Oh, Eric, R.I.P. I swear to all the queen.

But he did, right? And of course, for him, that represents something more than just the motion and the action. It is the choice that he made. It is a promise that is entwined in that action. And of course, it makes us think of one of our favorite moments, maybe our favorite moment from season one, episode eight, the crown falling off Viserys' head and Daemon picking it up and saying to his brother, come on.

on. Like everyone else has given up on you. And I, come on, they might think that I'm not the person who supports you. They might think I'm the one who's trying to undermine you. You might think that, but I'm the one who's going to be here to pick you up. This is Damon. This is why he's such an incredible character. All of these things are true about him. He can keep his tongue. Oh man. You have no allies at court but me.

That's what Viserys said to him in the season one fight. I have only ever defended you, yet everything I've given you, you've thrown back in my face. We often spend our time talking about the other part of it, which is Daemon's reply. You've only ever tried to send me away to the Vale, to the City Watch, anywhere but by your side. Because that tells us so much about Daemon. Yeah. But that Viserys line, everything I've given you, you've thrown back in my face…

It plants us, it roots us in what Rhaenyra is feeling here. But to your point about Aegon, like, and the vulnerabilities or the empathetic moments we have for him, like, I do believe...

That there is, and I would even say a majority part of Damon that just wants to show his support and affection. But he is confident that his way is the only right way. And his way is a quite aggressive and volatile way. But I believe, and that's what makes Damon such a compelling figure because he's not just like a posturing, sniggering villain. He is someone who genuinely wants to support

his brother, his wife slash niece, like, you know, while also grooming his wife slash niece, while also, you know, fucking up his brother's life by doing this, that, and the other thing, you know? And so... I agree completely. I think the fact that he thinks that he knows best, that he knows better, which is part of what we're going to hear in a moment,

doesn't actually diminish the fact that he does want to stand there by their side and be the trusted one to help. Like when he says to Viserys in season one of Otto, he doesn't protect you, I would. He is pained that Viserys doesn't see that. Part of what is... He'll support you, he just won't be obedient to you. Right, exactly. There's the... Of course, builds toward the wonderful Renise Corliss conversation. But...

That's part of what feels so palpable to Damon here, not just the really hurtful things he's about to say to Rhaenyra, not just the fact that he wants to support you, he wants to be Viserys' hand, he wants to be Rhaenyra's right hand. He does still think that he would do a better job, but he wants to be able to support the people he loves. He is devastated that they don't appreciate that.

right? Because that's the thing that he has to give. And so, like, that moment,

In season one, when he's observing the small council conversation and Otto's like, you know, gods, if he has to make a man who doesn't have the lack of patience for absolute power. And Vissera says that he doesn't want the throne and... He, like, scoffs a little. There's, like, that little, like... But it always struck me as, like, an appreciative chuckle, right? He gets me. Yeah. Yes. And, like, he'll... This is still the same character he'll say to Corlys in season one, episode two. It was never my brother's strongest trait. What? What?

Being king. Or he'll tell, he will tell Viserys to his face, like, he doesn't protect you. I would from what? Yourself. You're weak, Viserys. Like this again, it's this push-pull. He thinks that Viserys is weak.

He thinks that Rhaenyra is prone to this same weakness that he believes undermined Viserys' regime completely. Really important question for you. Do you think Vhagar thinks Aemond is weak? Because I love – I just love thinking about this comp of Daemon as, like, the uncontrollable dragon for Viserys and for – like, he brings them power. He will win a war. He will, you know, drag the crab feeder and somehow, you know, not get –

ill from it, like all this sort of stuff. Like he will do this. He will act as your steel fist if you prefer. He will be your dragon.

But if he sees a juicy little snack, he's going to chomp. Well, like, my instinct when you first asked the question is Vhagar wouldn't let a weak rider claim her, but then you can spin it immediately and say maybe Vhagar wants to be in control. Yeah. I think that's what's so fascinating about the mythology of the dragon bond. I quoted this line all the time in season one, but like that fire and blood line, who can know the mind of such a beast? You can just apply that to David. It's a perfect comp. I love it. Rhaenyra asks him...

Do you accept me as your queen and ruler? Not the realms, yours specifically. Are you willing to say that I am actually the one in charge? And then an already very tense and fraught exchange devolves further. Steve, can we hear this? Or do you cling even now to what you think you lost? What I think I lost. You did not lose it. You gave it away.

because you thought ever and only of your own glory and not of my father in his grief who needed you. your father was a coward who knew I was the strongest son that I was the leader of men and he was afraid to be seen in my shadow. is that what you understand of your own brother? you know him better than I do. he was raised at his side. do you believe he made you heir because of your great wisdom? because of your virtue?

How dare you? Or did he merely use you as a tool to put me in my place because he was afraid of me? Because he knew your legacy, unlike mine, would never outshine his own. He was not afraid of you, Damon. He could not trust you any more than I can trust you. He was a fool who sought greatness but shrank from spilling blood to achieve it, and I see you will suffer the same fate. You struck down a child. It was a mistake.

I love that. Unbelievable scene. When he says, when he goes, afraid of me, he sounds so Doctor Who 11 to me in that moment. That's such like an 11, 11 line read to me.

Oh, man. I love Rhaenyra calling him pathetic even after he has, like, smashed all the crockery and, like, you know, made her flinch and all. You know what I mean? Like, it's just sort of, she's just like. Well, like, the way she kind of whispers it, it's almost like she's saying it to herself as much as to him. Like, it's a moment of discovery for her. I'm seeing this. I'm seeing you in this clearly. Oh, shit. I married someone pathetic. Yeah. Oops. Remember Harwin Strong? He seemed pretty cool. Ah, break bones. The Viserys?

Yes. Drunken bonfire scene with Alicent. Yep. Season one, episode three.

I named her to protect the realm from damage. She was my only child, the realm's delight. I named her out of love because I no longer believed. Now, there's a lot of stuff going on here. He's talking about believing in the idea that his son will sit the throne. And guess what? Born wearing the conqueror's crown. His son will sit the throne. Yeah, I ain't got the conqueror, baby.

He stopped believing that oopsie had a son, but he already named his daughter. What a bind. What a pickle. Man, this scene is just unbelievable. I think that a lot of what Damon says here is vicious and hideous and wrong. But... As is always the case with Damon. There's a kernel of truth here. There's an element of truth. Yeah, yeah. Because what he's saying about... But also, I hate that he said your virtue, your wisdom...

took her virtue in the bowels of said pleasure den. Well, and also, like, the idea that those would be weaponized as, like, diminishments or unworthy qualities. Yeah, I mean, I hate that anyway as, like, a benchmark for anything. But still, like, if we're going to wield it, then let's talk about who tarnished it. But also, like... In the bowels of a pleasure den. In the bowels of a pleasure den. But, like, Otto...

I love that Otto and Damon who hate each other with their cock to the marrow. Rumors first. Yeah.

What? Where now? That they hate each other, but they're doing the exact same thing. Yes. To the monarchs that they have propped up. Yes. As being like, oh, you think it was you? Right. Oh, you think Viserys chose you? Right. Right. Daddy didn't love you. Right. Totally. That's such a great call. The part specifically about... Oh, is that what you think?

I can't wait to talk about that. He was a fool who sought greatness but shrank from spilling blood to achieve it. This is why Viserys the Peaceful being the moniker that is carried on is so rich and ironic. Viserys the... Indecisive. Moldering. Viserys the Lego builder. Viserys the skin sloshing. The conversation between Viserys and Lionel. Yeah.

In the fifth episode of the first season, will I be remembered as a good king? This student of history obsessed over, really honestly, the same thing that Damon is voicing here, right? There's a part of me that wishes I'd been tested. I often think that in the crucible, I may have been forged a different man. He just didn't recognize the test that was in front of him. I mean, yes. And also, it's like he's the one who's just like,

Oh, no, my dragon died. I guess I don't have a dragon now. Like, you know, Viserys is a Targaryen, you know. And I like him and I love building Legos and that's great. I mean, same. But like... As you know, I love the Lego. But something we love to track in our coverage of season one is how many mistakes Viserys made. Exactly. And how his...

desire for short-term peace really destroyed the prospect of long-term peace. And again, to get to that larger through line of the tragedy of how the characters who should be aligned claim to be aligned can't quite get on the same page. This would be a thing that Damon and Rhaenyra

should talk about. Like, what mistakes did Viserys make? Yeah. What lessons can we learn and how can we avoid them? But they are unable to have a productive conversation because these observations just end up being daggers that they hurl at each other. Speaking of hurled daggers, do you ever wish when you...

Let's say you're on an episode of The Rewatchables or some other show, certainly not our show, where you have like a major disagreement with someone. You just like really like walk away like we did not see eye to eye. Do you wish you could just hop on your long, wormy red dragon and fly off and on? Of course, though I like to think that I would still acknowledge my daughter. Be like, Nailah.

I'm heading out. Mounting the bloodworm again. Time to put the armor on and go. I would say that to Bela. Yeah. Also, if you're in the mood, say it to Jason Joff.

say to reina man and how about you smooch your little blonde babies before you go this is a damon bad dad all around a huffy pouty exit from damon is so tough but when he puts on armor on and mounts caraxis and flies away you're like let's fucking go let's go let's go yeah you think um do you think uh he's off to pursue that toehold finally

Or is he just like, let's go back to Pentos? That would be great. 9,000 Harrenhal mentions. But like, yeah, you know what? Was the wine in Pentos so bad after all? This Amber shit. Swill. Speaking of Bela, she is getting an assignment from Rhaenyra. Dad does not say hello in the hallway. Bela walks in. Broken crockery on the ground. Observes the carnage. Here goes dad again. Not ideal. Asks.

Rhaenyra, where Daemon is going, she says he must follow his own path. And it made me think of when Jace basically asked this exact question at the end of season one, where's Daemon?

gone to madness, gone to plot his war. It's so funny. Inspired by you and the Dunkin' Egg casting news, I've been rereading, actually re-listening. If you've never listened to the Night of the Seven Kingdoms audiobooks narrated by the great Harry Lloyd, it's just like 10 out of 10 audiobook. But the Targaryens in those stories and just thinking more and more about the

the flip of the coin and madness and greatness as two sides of the Targaryen life. We're getting an Alzheimer and Dunkin' Egg. Yes. Alzheimer. But, um...

These are, because Ryan Condal is interested in telling like a much more nuanced version than what we get in Fire and Blood, we're getting degrees of this, right? We're getting nuance. We're getting degrees. But it is, you know, Gone to Madness, I think, is a great, you know. Yeah, it pings something for us, the Targaryens. Absolutely. Rhaenyra's mission for Bela, take Moondancer. Yeah. Bela's dragon. Too dangerous for Jace. High of an error. Don't get too close.

Stay high. Can't afford any more mistakes. But I need you to keep an eye on King's Landing. Comings and goings. What did you make of this? Is there any part of you that is willing to say, there's something nice about this? That Rhaenyra trusts Bela? That Rhaenyra sees Bela as a capable dragon rider and warrior and member of the team? Yeah.

How are you? What percentage are you putting on that? And what percentage are you putting on? Jace asked to do literally this, right? He said, send me up on Vermax. And she said, no. Like, I lost a son. I'm not losing another.

She's willing to risk Bela's life, but not Jace's. And that's fucked up. Yeah. I think it's 30% I have confidence in you and 70% I'm not putting my heir up there, my true-born son, etc. There's also the element, I mean, it's the like, do you risk the heir versus do you risk your wonderful, very competent stepdaughter slash soon-to-be hopefully daughter-in-law relationship?

That is Bela. But also, are they as likely to attack Bela as they are to attack... I don't think we're yet at like... I'm sure some kids have died. Don't you think Bela is like... Children die all the time. They die all the time! But don't you think that like Bela... That's a Last of Us reference for anyone who's like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Oh, man. But like...

Don't you think Bela is just, like, slightly safer? A slightly... A target they're slightly less likely to attack than Jace? Interesting. Jace, her direct heir. I guess I could see why that would be what someone talked themselves into. I just think it's, like, the herb in the soup. It's not the chicken in the soup. It's, like, the herb. It's in there. I think for us as viewers, though, we're like...

You can't put... This is one of the lessons so far of the story, is that you can't assume anything about anyone else. Like, we'll send you... If you go, you're going as envoys, not warriors. The Baratheons, this should be the short, easy trip. How'd that go? Eric, you're going to glory. To glory! A murder! I don't know, but it's also like for us as viewers, obviously Rhaenyra doesn't have this information, though again, I do think that

We should assume that Rhaenyra and everybody there is assuming that the Greens are prepping just as they are, right? What's Rhaenyra's response to blood and cheese? It's like, let's double the guard. So everybody's on. Everybody is ready all the time for violence. We've seen the Scorpions. I agree. I just still think that Jace is like...

I think if Rhaenyra is like, you're not going to be in harm's way. I really think if they have a priority list of targets, it's Rhaenyra number one, Daemon number two, Jace number three, Rhaenys number four, Bela at the bottom of the list. Yes. But if you mount your dragon and you go into the sky, you're not safe. And Rhaenyra should know that. She does know that. Tough one. Tough one.

I like the 30-70 split. There is a nice little, I believe in you. But also it's like, I can risk you and not Jace. Sisters are doing it for themselves, but also protect the air. I will say I am just unbelievably excited to see Moondancer next week. We've gotten some trailer shots. Moondancer, wonderful, like veining of the wings. Very exciting. So that's wonderful. And we got a little glimpse in the tease at the end of the episode for next week. And Moondancer looks awesome. So excited about that.

little like interlude of comings and goings at the Red Keep in Dragonstone. This is a fascinating moment. Okay. The stairs. So it's Aegon and Helena passing each other on the stairs. Aegon coming down, Helena going up. Helena still does not have a single guard on her. This is a disaster. Aegon has two. She has none. Yeah.

Kristen Cole, what are you doing? Wait, I know what you're doing. Okay, anyway. So that happens. They have this like moment. Yeah, they stop and they look at each other. And they don't talk to each other. And Helena like gives herself sort of like a little nod and keeps going. What's very fascinating is Tom Glenn Carney's

interpretation of this moment is that it's a shared moment of understanding between them. And my interpretation was the exact opposite, that these emotionally stunted children do not know how to connect with each other. So I have not seen any episodes in the future. I genuinely don't know if this is true. When I heard that on the inside of the episode, my honest response was like, because I assume they interview them and they just talk about the season. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, that line didn't belong here.

That's what I thought about that. I don't know. That's just, that was... You think it's a reference to a scene we haven't seen yet? That was my only interpretation. I just felt odd as a way to describe this. Way off from what we saw, yeah. Now, I do think there was something that passed between them that was...

fascinating for us to try to understand and consider. And you're like, does he want to go and comfort her but doesn't know how? Like, they are, they're not just husband and wife, they're brother and sister. And they're quite young. They grew up together. They're young people who have gone through horrors and trauma. Yeah.

But also, and like, does he want to comfort her because he knows that she is mourning and he is grieving and he is not receiving comfort from anyone? Only instruction. Right. Only handling. This thing that they could. Or does he blame her? Oh, probably. It's somewhere in his little. Does he blame her because she was there? Like, and that would be horrible and wrong, but it was impossible for me not to wonder, is he holding her to account? Regardless, Team Green, and this is meant to stand in contrast to Jason Bela, who we're going to get to.

But this is just like we are constantly, because we're bouncing back and forth between King's Landing and Dragonstone, we're constantly comparing and contrasting dynamics between these various families. We're all one family. And Jason Bela and the, you know, we'll talk about those sweet kids and like the amount of support they're able to give each other. Yeah. Yes. And Team Green, as much as I am not Team Green, it's just so sad to watch them. It's devastating. They don't have anyone. Yeah. Yeah.

We go from the comedy of like the queen is an enduring mystery. Is she not last week to this moment? And it's later in the episode. But when we see Allison unable to comfort Egon. Yeah. Right. Or Otto, I do not wish to hear of it. This is exactly. Exactly. This then is just that next. Oh, yeah.

Down the line. Down the shit spills, right? Otto can't properly comfort Alison. Alison can't properly comfort Aegon. Aegon can't properly comfort his sister slash wife. None of them know how to care for or tend to the other person. I'm sure he on some level laments that he is not able to receive some sort of like nurturing tender touch, but he's also not able to provide that. And that's devastating. Yeah.

There's other stuff coming and going here. Passing. Yeah, it's the king and the queen. It's a bloody mattress and the absolutely incompetent lord commander soon to be hand of the king. Yes, the look on his face as he sees the blood-drenched mini mattress. A flash of empathy. I felt it.

Brutal stuff here. High comedy when the guy who's carrying the mattress soaked in the dead child's blood is like, please move. Get out of the way. Please move. And then this is where we get the little moment we talked about earlier with Aegon and Viserys. Oh, that is a name for a king. Regina, where are we on that spray bottle? Oh, that is a name for a king.

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Bath time. Bath time. No spray bottles, but baths aplenty. Allison's still not letting any of Laris' careful unpicked spies bathe her. And there was something about seeing her. Again, I think the show is so deft in these little glimpses and moments. Something like watching her have to like scrabble at her own ties. Yes, figure out how to take her dress off on her own. There's that tension of like, is she going to ask Kristen to do it for her?

You know? Yeah. All he hears in that hallway is the crackle of the flame right here and the rustle of fabric inside the queen's chambers. Oh, I thought you meant the rustle of fabric as his erection rises. That sounds like a comment I would make, right? And definitely not a comment you would make. She goes to him. She does. But she doesn't say, hey, pick up this washcloth. Join me. She says, have you told anyone?

What do you take me for? One who seeks absolution. And he says there is none for what I've done. Now we're about to watch him go send Eric on his mission. So we're going to talk about both Allison and Kristen and their guilt and what they're carrying here. But just very quickly, let's get started.

What do you take me for? Someone who sung like a canary to me when I didn't even ask you if you had sex with Rhaenyra. I didn't even have to roll out my torture tools and, like, wave a plier in your direction. You freely confessed because you did not totally understand the conversation we were having. Thick as a castle wall. You are listening to Dunkin' Egg. I am. Dunk belongs. Thick as a castle wall. Did not get...

at all what Allison was going for. He's like, yep, I did it. I had sex with her. Oh, is that not what you're asking? Oops. If you as a Clement Queen, the fact that he is guarding her door here, we just have to talk about this for a second because this is actually insane. It should not still be his job. He's the Lord Commander. It shouldn't have been his job. As Eric will soon point out, after Helena ascended, Eric with an A,

Eric with an A. The fact that after Jaehaerys was murdered, after blood, murdered, he's still standing guard over Alicent as everyone else walks around unprotected. This is just astonishing. Okay. So we talked about this on Talk of the Thrones. By the way, Alicent's the one who tries to spill the beans later. She's like, have you told anyone? Yeah.

in a little while from now, I'm going to try to tell my dad. He's not going to be interested. But, like, again, this is projection. The only... So, the only thing I'll say about that is, in addition to the very rich projection, as you note, I think that Alison... Like, that struck me, and especially we talk of her piety, we talk of her faith, like, that struck me as her version of confession. Yeah. Where...

she believes that that will be, she will be able to unburden herself and that won't go any further. Because Otto is always thinking about House Hightower above all and he would guard that secret. It's the old, like, is there no one here at all for me idea. I don't think she thinks Otto's going to spill the beans. She doesn't, if Kristen tells someone who knows. But if something he has over her, I would go see my local clergy. I would go up and

see my minister if I were her and not tell my dad who is any political operator absolutely and he and she has been in his power enough to know that and has called him out on that that how could I know right exchange that they have at the at the end of season one but I think that she can at least trust in the fact that he while that will be a weapon that he can wield against her that he won't

spread that further because it doesn't behoove him or benefit their family to do that. But if he wants Kristen out of there... If Kristen's gabbing... But she wants Kristen and... Anyway, it's just stupid to talk to Otto about this. Yeah, it's odd. Alicent needs some trusted companions other than Otto and Kristen Cole. I do love the stretch at the end of the episode where we see Alicent with Otto, Alicent with Aegon, Alicent with Kristen, and it's like...

What a series of completely fucked up relationships. Okay, speaking of toxic relationships, Alicent and Kristen. Their guilt, their shame, everything that's driving them. Again, Kristen Cole, the fictional character. Yes. We hate him. Yes. The way we chatted about this on Sunday night, but the way that

Because Chris was like, well, take me through Kristen's sins, right? The way that Alicent has been present throughout this journey as either the person he is confessing to after the dalliance with Rhaenyra, as the person who comes in to stop him from killing himself in the Godswood after he...

Kills Joffrey Lonmouth at the pre-wedding feast. Punch Joffrey's face off. Clean off. Just off his face. Half a face. Gone. Yeah. Gone. She's there when he shoves a small ball through. Well, it's more like he shoves Beesbury's head through the small ball.

Sit down! Throw down your sword and move your cloak, Sir Criston. Shout out Lord Commander Westerling. He really did try to fire Criston. Sir Harold! I miss him. Yeah. I miss him. And so Alicent hasn't been there to witness these cloak-sullying moments. I mean, again, if Daemon is the uncontrollable, we've said this a million times, if Daemon is the uncontrollable dragon on or off Rhaenyra's leash,

This is the dog on Allison's leash is Kristen Cole. Berserker rage. I sent you a screenshot over the weekend of this, like, this one of the many great Fabian Frankl and Matt Smith, like, answering questions for HBO. And it's like, if you could give your character one piece of advice. And he was like, stop murdering everyone. Yeah.

Chill out. It doesn't have to be like this. Also, definitely stop doing it in front of everyone else. Do your murders in private, Kristen. Like everyone else. Exvest.

I was about to say, invest in a murder cloak, but he would be like, will this little hat do? Oh, man. The hat. All right. Let's go with Kristen Tide Pen Cole. I'm calling him Tide Pen Cole because he wants that cloak to be. A Tide Pen won't do it. No, no. Not at this point. No.

Not at this point. He has a mission for Sir Eric, who worked all night doing something other than fucking the Dowager Queen, is exhausted, is hungry, and just wants to eat his breakfast in peace and has to suffer through this. The fact that this is one of the final things. I mean, think of the end of Sir Eric with an A's life. This conversation with Kristen. I hope the ship journey was smooth. I doubt it.

a smooth sailing. I doubt it. I mean, there's a blockade. Right. No more going to be here at the end. He's on a black friendly ship. It's just, I really, you know what, I seriously can't shake

that they're all still wearing the same armor. Like, this is really, when we go through the list of errors. We've rebranded the sigils, but we can't spray paint the armor. Aegon has the new sigil on the show, and the book for Neera has also reworked her sigil. It's the old Renly like it would be. I suppose it would be confusing, right? Yeah. You're Kingsguard and you're Queensguard, and they include twins.

I mean, the twins aside, I guess the point is sort of like, why should I change my guard's armor? I'm the rightful, like, this is the armor they've worn for hundreds of years and will continue to wear. Similar to the Starks, they are not changing this armor. So it's like, why should I change? Though I think once the sigils change, that's all. That's done. If you're changing the Targaryen sigil...

I mean, that is the symbol of might in the realm. I mean, I guess. What's some Kingsguard armor at that point? It's just really, it's really Hightower propaganda that's happening over there. Okay. Kristen has some notes on the hem of Arik with an A's cloak. Some dirt from the funeral procession for the dead heir who died. I'm not sure if you have been keeping tabs on this while Kristen was fucking Allison. Oh, is that what he was saying? A bird!

And Kristen would like Eric, with an A, to clean this cloak, Jo. The white cloak is a symbol of our purity, our fidelity. King's God or a sacred trust will you so easily sully our ancient honor. And of course, we think back to the fight, the parting, the parting of the ways with Rhaenyra when she did not want to eat oranges and sniff cinnamon.

And he said, I took an oath. Is that what you think he wanted to do with the cinnamon? Sniff it? I don't know. Taste it. Sniff it. Sprinkle it on the oranges. Dust it on all sorts of body parts and foodstuffs. I took an oath. As a knight of your king's guard, an oath of chastity. I've broken it. I've soiled my white cloak. It is the only thing I have to my fucking name.

This is what is plaguing Kristen. Raised to a station, raised to the Kingsguard by Rhaenyra, the highest honor. It's my name. For any coal. Sorry. And Eric with an A will shortly say to him, hey, this is what our vow actually means, right? And that's not the thing that Kristen's interested in. Not actually. Right.

Deceptions? Lies! Deceptions! Borgullet! That's not what the Kingsguard is about. Christian doesn't give a shit about that. Yeah. But the thing in his head, this symbol that he never thought he would hold in his hands and has a tainted...

And the only way that he can absolve... He's saying to Allison, absolution, there's none for me anymore. But that doesn't stop him from behaving this way, from trying to put that white sheen back around the thing that he chipped away at. There is no moment that I have been more angry at Kristen Cole than, like...

Kristen Cole is so delightful to hate because of the hypocrisy. There's the violence. A lot of people do violence. There's this, you know, there's like, you know, fucking the queen when you shouldn't. Plenty of people fuck people they shouldn't on this show. The things they do for love, et cetera, you know. But it's the... So many vows? It's the hypocrisy, really. So our listener, Anna, who is a...

Like a PhD student in Christian art or studying something around the Virgin Mary, which I think is fascinating, wrote this. She writes, Crispy's obsession with the white cloaks while blood of innocence stains the white bedclothes is chef's kiss love to hate. In this same episode, the integrity of the white cloak is rent in two as two identical twin brothers kill each other while wearing identical white cloaks.

The image of bloodstained bedclothes has a rich history in Christian art. The absence of blood in typically bloody scenes often signified purity in gendered terms. In images of the birth of the Virgin Mary, white bedclothes are held up as proof of Mary's miraculous birth and her immaculate conception. There were, of course, traumatic images of childbirth many times in season one. Again and again, the blood spilled on white clothing was the blood of innocents, children, mothers in childbirth, etc.,

So, yeah, I love this idea of like the blood soaked mattress. The like we talked last week about Allison in this sort of like scrubbing out out damn spot, like sort of Lady Macbeth. It'll never be clean moment. Yeah.

If Kristen turned any of that inward, I would have like so much more empathy for him. But the fact that he just sort of tries to pour his shit downhill on Eric, who, as you have pointed out, it's your fault, Eric, it's your fault. Where were you just trying to eat his breakfast after getting mud on his cloak from attending the, you know, pageantry funeral? Yeah.

Doing his job. I really enjoyed Eric with an A spinning this back on Kristen. Like, where were you? A bed. A bed! That was great. And calling out the absurdity of Helena's lack of protection. You toasted these guys on Talk of Thrones, but the way that the other...

You guys, peace out of there. They're like, don't make eye contact. He's mentioning his traitor brother now. Let's go. We can hold the balls. We can hold the balls. It does not serve us to stay here. No eye contact. Do not get drawn in. So funny. And then Kristen hatches his plot. We get that we will pay the princess back in her own bloody coin line right out.

of fire and blood. The line that comes after we will pay the princess back in her own bloody coin in the book is the instrument the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard chose for the King's vengeance was his sworn brother Sir Arik Cargill. Instrument I think is such like your tool. Yeah. That I'm going to use. Which is like

Again and again, what was told to Aegon, what is told to Rhaenyra is like you're just a device. We hear it from Rhaenyra in this episode, right? Or have you used me as a tool with which to grasp? That's what I mean. Yeah. We are sworn to serve forthrightly, not to traffic and deception. That's what Aragorn says.

Unfortunately, he is instead going to have to impersonate his twin. Kristen says, so Eric says, Eric says, you would send me to my death. Yeah. Kristen says, or to triumph and glory, which is real a Morton Joe thing.

Valhalla to the war boys shit. Yes. So manipulative. But even that, he doesn't really, I don't think he actually believes that that's reaching Eric with an A for a second because he just ends it by saying, or do I have to... Stitch on you. Do I have to go talk to the king? Yeah. That's, I mean, that's actually closer to Dolores Umbridge being like, sounds like you have a problem with the ministry. Is that...

Is that what we're doing here? I love to think of Christian Cole in like a pink bow. I think it would just suit his personality. What would Eric with an A be writing over and over again as it appeared on the back of his hands? I swear to all the king. Joanna. Mallory. Would you join me for a tender interlude with Jason Bela? Too many empty seats at this table. Oh.

Where were you at supper? I looked for you at the Trident. This was so sweet. This honestly was so sweet. Jace going to find Bela because she wasn't at dinner. Everyone's got other stuff on their minds. A lot of dead people. It's time for crossbow practice, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, yeah, et cetera. Amusing, I assume, Harrenhal bit with her discussing where Damon went. Great stuff. Yeah. And then they speak of fathers, Jo. And Bela says of Damon, sometimes I think I hate him. Listen. I mean...

She was the favorite daughter when they were over in Pentos. Yeah. But... Dragonrider. Lena wanted to go home, and Damon... Like, Bela's mom wanted to go home, and Damon was like, no. Right. And... So you think some of Renice's...

bitterness toward Damon. Absolutely. I mean, I think that like Rhaenys, who's seen most often with Bela and Rhaena? It's Rhaenys. You know? And Rhaenys does not strike me as the kind of grandmother who would refrain from shit-talking their dad. No, certainly not. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, sometimes I hate him. And then we broke all of this down on Talk of Thrones, but I think it's worth going through again the like careful language of this scene. Absolutely. When they're talking about fathers, right? Yeah.

Tricky things, fathers. You know, and Bela asks about, she's like, what do you remember my uncle? Yes, Laenor. And that's...

Yeah. A true thing. He was her uncle. Yes. He was not Jace's father, but he was a father figure. He was his father, just not his biological father. Yeah. He was a father. And I think the affection with which Jace responds to that shows, yeah. Fishing? Thought he had a fish? The dream. There's like a love and there's a smile on his face as he's reminiscing and remembering Laenor and what he was to them. A father who was present and then, of course, she...

asks about his other father. She doesn't say that either. She just says, what of Harwin Strong? Harwin Strong. She doesn't say your other father, right? She just asks about Harwin Strong. Which is almost more...

But in other hands, it's the most inciting language possible. Three Strong Boys, like to use that name would call up all of the horrors and the undermining moments from season one from other people. But that's not how she means it. Not at all. At all. And it's not how he greets it.

We mentioned this on Talk of Thrones, but I think, again, it's worth remembering this exchange from Driftmark, the episode in season one, when they're at Lena's funeral. Yes. Right? Yep. So Bela's mother's funeral and Rhaenyra says to Jace, your little cousins have lost their mother. They could use a kind word.

And little Jace says, I have an equal claim to sympathy because my guy, Larry Strong, killed his dad and his brother when they were a bed. Okay. Curse castle. Yeah, sure. He says, she says, Jace, Jace says, we should be at Heron Hall mourning Lord Lionel and Sir Harwin. And Rhaenyra says, it would not be appropriate.

The Valyrians are our kin and the Strongs are not. Look at me. Do you understand? Because this is life and death. Yes, exactly. Yeah. This is your claim to the throne. This is our safety is in this blatant lie that we're trotting around that you are somehow Laenor's son and not Harwin Strong's son. So he was never able to claim his power.

own father publicly. And even when it was just the two of them, at the end of the prior episode when Harwin goes away and little Jace says, like, is Harwin strong my father? Rhaenyra's like, you're a Targaryen, that's what matters. Do you have the talking points straight? Because, and again, like, out of protection, right? Because the danger was

So real. But the fact that, like, even in a private conversation with Rhaenyra, Jace could not acknowledge this truth, it just makes this moment with Bela all the more impactful. Right.

Right. Because he responds to that question with, he was gentle and fierce. They called him break bones. He loved us, I think. And, like, the fact that he feels safe with her, that she felt safe enough to ask him, that he felt safe enough to answer, the comfort. It's such a stark contrast on the trust front. Shatter trust everywhere else. Well, here's trust intact everywhere.

And only growing. Yeah. And that's a lovely and important counterweight to so much of the horror elsewhere. I think also just this, it goes back to my, again, I have a lot of empathy for Alison and the way she was raised and the position that she was put in and all of that. But the fact that Alison's and Kristen's meddling and autos

broke up this like extremely functional happy family where Laenor was happy and got what he wanted and Harwin and Rhaenyra were happy and had what they wanted. And the boys had two father figures who loved them and Rhaenyra. And this was just like, everyone had figured it out. Who were they hurting in all of this? And Alicent and Kristen and Otto for various different reasons were like, this cannot stand.

And for Alison, especially because she has less of the like,

She's not scheming politically like her father, but she has the like, I cling to the tenets of the church for guidance. So then it becomes this like conservative religious movement, which is just all the more aggravating to consider. And these two men lost their lives. Well, not later, but. Just out there. You know. Carl. I mean, who knows? Years have passed. Seasmoke. Who knows what they're up to? Anything else, Jo, on the Jason Bela front?

I thought we would take a moment and talk about Jason Bela and the various ways in which they're related. This is a great one. Okay. They are stepbrother and stepsister. Yes. So that is true because Damon and Rhaenyra are married. So stepbrother, stepsister. Who are betrothed to be married. Who are betrothed to be married. So they are stepbrother, stepsister, affianced. Uh-huh. Okay. If we buy the fiction that Laenor is...

Jace's father. Right. They would be cousins. Right. So that's what the realm is, in theory, understands their relationship to be. That they're cousins, step-siblings, and betrothed. Okay? They are not. Right. But they are second cousins because Rhaenys and Viserys are cousins. Yeah. So they're related down that line. And let us not forget that

that Damon is Rhaenyra's uncle. So they're related down that line. How could we possibly? And then let us not forget as we go up the family tree, this is where we're going to stop all of it. But we talk a lot about Jaehaerys, the conciliator, and good queen Alysanne. Lovely king and queen Targaryens. We love them so much. They reigned for a long time. Healthy reign. Brother and sister. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. This is the Targaryen way. Targaryen exceptionalism. Uh...

They're related in so many ways. And if we were to draw you a family tree, it would be quite jumbled and confusing. They don't call him Aegon and his sister wives for nothing, folks. But yeah, Jason Bela, it's a particularly complicated little sticky connection there. Speaking of sticky connections. Gross. Let's go to the bowels of a pleasure den with Aemond.

For some cuddles and some mommy time and some milk. And look, Jo, it is that mysterious dancing blonde from the trailer. We were like, who is this character? This was it. I mean, maybe we'll see her again. Maybe. She's very blonde. Yeah. Yeah. Sure is. So, of course, Amand would feel right at home here, you know, surrounded by orgy murals on the wall. Just like home. Just like home. You know? Yeah.

And his foil daemon, many of our early formative scenes with daemon were also in the brothels. With Rhaenyra, with Mysaria, possibly making the air for a day speech, etc. So this feels right to see Aemond here. But we do not find him, as we initially found daemon, pumping away and then cloaked. We find him nude, curled in the fetal position, in bed.

Sylvie's. Madam Sylvie's arms. Madam Sylvie's arms. La. A sick round bed. Yeah, this was good. With like the drippy candles everywhere. This was good. Very like almost sept-esque sort of configuration. Yeah. Really cool vibes in this. Yeah. Not I want to have sex here vibes. Certainly not. No sex here. Not here. No. Not here. Just cuddling. Just mommy time and book time. Yeah. The.

We chatted a lot on Talk of Thrones. Chris felt very sure this was Milk of the Poppy and that Aemond was high. We both read this definitively as infantilizing. This is, the kids were mean to me. My mom doesn't like me or love me or support me or encourage me. I've got to always be the bold, strong, everyone's mighty dragon rider and fabled sword. And like here, I just want to curl up and drink some more milk.

Do we think this is where he was when blood and cheese popped in? I mean, she says you were with me, like whether she's like, here's your alias or whether he actually was. It's like the way she said it sounded sort of like she was offering an alibi, but like, I'm not sure. Anyway, do you think that Amon keeps the same number of people?

baby bottles full of milk that Homelander keeps in his private chambers? Or do you think that he just, like, if he wants the milk, he has to come here to get it? Gotta travel for that whole experience. Because it's not just about the milk. It's about the whole cradling him experience. One of our listeners, Kayla, compared naked

naked Amon here in the arms of a motherly woman to the Pieta. Uh-huh. Are you ready to accept Amon as your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? No? Okay. I might be. I like that call. Um...

Yeah, so this is the woman. We mentioned this in Talk of Thrones. This is the woman who took Aemon's virginity. Yes, this scene is always on your mind because of not the virginity losing, but the recounting of the virginity losing because of Kristen's hat. Yes. Your favorite moment in House of the Dragon. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm always thinking about that hat in that moment. Time to get it wet. That's why it's your favorite moment. Yeah. Yeah, so Aemon's virginity...

At 13, a gift from Egon. A hand with his jeering, bullying brother. Yep. But this is who he has returned to. This woman, Sylvie. Yeah. How you've grown. That was what she said when she saw him in season one. Yeah. Wild stuff. Fucked up. So here's what we hear from Ament in this sequence. We hear that he is honored.

Do you think Amon's like, I read the analysis. It turns out I'm his foil. Yeah.

Did you know that my name is just his name with a D moving around to the end? This was wonderful stuff. Almond Targaryen. Good old almond. But yeah, the private regret. I do regret. Yeah. That business with Luke. That business. Yeah. That business when my dragon ate his dragon and him and they found only a wing and a cloak. A cloak? Yeah.

I lost my temper that day. I am sorry for it. So obviously the stark contrast to Damon, who cannot really accept any responsibility, literally says, I am not responsible aloud, to Damon saying this here, though the private nature of it, while it gives us actually a new insight into like what vulnerability Amon possesses, it actually then amplifies that air that he is putting on. Oh, for sure. With everybody else. The posturing. Yes.

What Sylvie says here, when princes lose their temper, it's often others who suffer, small folk like me. In her very, like, best sort of schoolteacher voice that she gives to him. Again, Ryan Condal has said— You think they do any schoolteacher stuff? A hundred percent. It's more like private tutor and princeling, but yeah. Something that Ryan Condal—

said numerous times before this season was this idea of like the small folk and the impact of the war on the small folk. We'll talk about it when we talk about Hugh, which we're about to. Comes up again with Massaria as a sort of like voice of the people role that she is adopting. Massaria is someone we often link to Varys for a number of reasons. And there's this great line from Varys to Ned in the original Game of Thrones book, right, where he says...

The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If that's true, Lord Eddard, tell me, why is it always the innocents who suffer most when you High Lords play your game of thrones? Wonderful stuff. So this is Ryan Condal and Sarah Hess and the various writers just sort of like having fun with one of the more famous lines from the original book. I love it. Small folk like me. Oh, Varys. George! George!

Jorah in the show, you know, the common people, what's like one of his early lessons for Danny, the common people pray for rain health in a summer that never ends. They don't care. Yeah. What games the High Lord plays. And especially with the dance scene.

With the Dance of Dragons, you know, this is true of the War of Five Kings. Like, any war that we have seen is going to impact the small folk in various ways. Oh, yeah. But this idea of this war fought above by dragons, like, high in the sky. Yeah. Yes. But, like... Right. Right.

How does the fire affect what's going on down here below? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's obviously no accident. We hear Eamon reflect on how they used to tease him when he was a kid, but we move from that Sylvie line about the small folk right into going home with Hugh. Hugh. Home with Hugh. We've talked about these next couple scenes quite a bit already, actually, so we can kind of breeze through these, but is there anything else you want to say about

Our time at home with Hard Hugh and his wife and her chicken soup and their ailing child. You know, she is speaking about not just like how hard it was to get the chicken, how expensive everything is, but the way that people are already hoarding.

And Hugh is struck, struck by this selfishness, right? Which other people, if they were in the position of exhibiting that, would frame as surely self-preservation. Well, I will protect my family. I think it goes back to what you were asking me about in terms of like Aegon as a quote-unquote good king or someone who cared about the small folk. It's like whatever luxury Aegon had in episode one of thinking about the sheep slash goat herders or the smithies or whatever. Yes, or the salt. Yeah.

I don't think his brain and heart have room for that now that he's on the vengeful war path. Yes, certainly. And so this line from the book, which I think we quoted last week, but we'll quote again, every morning King Aegon had merchants whining at him. His grace had no answer for their complaints beyond another cup of strong wine. So this idea of a monarch who gave Hugh like this sort of

Flash of promise. Yeah. Which Hugh then shares with his wife here. Right. But is Aegon going to be able to be that king? Right, sure. Yeah. Now that he has even more of a war to focus on. Right. And whether you were the recipient of a promise like that directly in the throne room or you were just a person going about your day...

Any sort of goodwill that the people in power have managed to engender, like, it's a fickle thing. And so to meet Hugh's family and hear his wife share this account of what she's observing through the city, like, we're in the second episode of the season, and you can feel how quickly...

Not just the, like, we're thinking of what's the impact on the small folk. How will their lives change? How will they suffer? We're about to see what happens to the rat catchers. But also how quickly then that resentment can build among them. Well, you're not, okay, you're sitting on the Iron Throne, but, like, what are you doing for me right now? Soup looked good despite the limited ingredients. I thought it looked great. Looked delicious. Looked hearty. Cat's doing her best. Looked soothing. Oh, the cat.

Speaking of soup.

Let's go to Driftmark because Alan and Adam, we heard Alan when we met him in episode one, mention his brother. Here he is, Adam of Hull. And they have a very, very sweet and charming reunion. They have not seen each other for months. They are delighted to be back with each other and they're talking about goat stew. Alan wants to know if Adam has a pot going. Wants to know if there are carrots in it. Let's say more importantly than stew is this line. I was like, nothing's more important than stew. Nothing's more important than soup. Nothing. Nothing.

Nothing. Where he says, but brother, he owes you. He owes us. Right. Because Adam's like, are you going to join the Sea Snakes crew? I prefer not to. Right. Alan.

Truth be told, I would rather he didn't, meaning extend an offer. But Adam's like, glory, riches, fortune awaits, adventure awaits. So we see they have a different disposition and a different inclination toward. Makes me think of the acolyte, May and Osha. But yeah, 100%. Does it make sense that

Adam is making a stew, goat stew. Should he be making bouillabaisse since he is seen collecting crabs? Like a nice fishy stew? I just like to see when you scoop out that crab. Just gives us and mostly Chris a reason to think back to the crab feeder. Oh, you're always thinking about the crab feeder. You know, our guy. Fred Strayhall! Yeah, so this is a later scene, but when Adam is collecting the crabs...

Ever since Laenor left, we've had this question about sea smoke. Because to remind people who don't spend too much of their lives poring over these books, when a dragon rider bonds to a dragon, that's a life bond. And it does not break until the rider or the dragon dies. And so, like, for example, with Vhagar, Aemond was able to claim Vhagar because Vhagar's previous rider, Laena, had died. Yep.

So Laenor, her brother, is bonded to Seasmoke. In the books, Laenor dies. Seasmoke, free agent. In the show, Laenor alive. What happens with Seasmoke? We don't know. Potentially, I don't know. Will we ever see Laenor again? I have no idea. I guess probably not. But yeah, it's been a question. Are they going to change this Dragonrider lore? Or does Laenor die offscreen?

We don't know. We genuinely don't know. We don't know. But it is nice to see Seasmoke here and be reminded that Seasmoke is on Driftmark, as Damon told us at the end of season one. Seasmoke resides on Driftmark. Here Seasmoke is out taking the air, stretching those wings. I'm going to come back to that dragon mess a little later on. Right. Radius and Coralie's in bed. All bad! We talked about this a bunch as well. Great scene. What more do we want to add to this scene?

You know, I think seeing them back in a moment of just, like, love and post-coital bliss and, like, talking. They are... See, so many of the moments across season one where they were talking, like, strategy, talking tactics, talking about other people. It was tension. It was...

Just the rift was widening because Corlys was obsessed with legacy and Rhaenys saw that they were marching toward the destination of their family. And then when Corlys comes back from taking his wound, the blood fever, he's like, I'm done with that. And she's like, actually...

They need us. I sworn toward the queen. They need us. And so they're in a place right now it feels like finally of equal footing. Yeah. Where they are like aligned in not only like their candor with each other and able to speak freely about what they're observing in other people and what they're thinking of themselves. Like even like hearing, well, he is king consort.

but he is not king. Neither am I, but I managed. Just felt like a really distinct posture from Corliss compared to, like, how he conducted himself in season one. So that was...

He's coming off like a real wife guy. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, because Bernice mentions, right, she's talking about Damon and how he's behaving, and she says, like, I felt the crown pass over me. She knows what it's like. A mention of something like that in season one would have incited and sparked and fueled Corliss' ambition. Right. But that's not present here. Which just feels like you feel the evolution in their relationship in a way that I really loved. And then, of course, they also allude to their...

Subdom. Their sex life, yeah. Great stuff. Neither can he allow her to command him of Damon. Pity. I have on occasion found that to be quite enjoyable. We go down to the hottest thing in this episode. Wonderful stuff. The library. The library. This was incredible. I mean, the expansion of the Dragonstone set is unbelievable. The library was just absolutely exquisite. Yeah. If you watch the House of Dragons built, Jim Clay, who's the, you know,

The architect of all of this did a huge expansion on King's Landing, but also a huge expansion on Dragonstone. And so similar to the King's Landing set, where they can like walk from room to room. It's not like, you know, usually on a set, this room's over here, that room's over there, blah, blah, blah. And they make it look like they're walking in between rooms. This is like a living, a living, breathing set where you can walk down the hallways between the rooms. It's just absolutely incredible. The scale of it. Yeah. Oh, and the details. Yeah.

It was so cool to see Rhaenyra actually open a tome. We get to see the aforementioned Aegon and his sister wives. We see Aegon and Visenya and Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, excuse me, on the first page. And then Rhaenyra turns the page and we see just Visenya on Vhagar holding Dark Sister. We associate Dark Sister with Daemon. Yeah. Vhagar with Aemond, of course. So that's fun. But also it's not just the like looking at this and thinking of this, this, this, this

great historical figure of consequence in how we have these now associations with these two characters in the present story. But, you know, we think back to something like the moment in the season one premiere where Raniera wanted to name... Well, yeah. Alison Raniere reading, but Raniera wanting to name the kid Visenya. Yeah.

and Viserys saying this family already has its Visenya like what Visenya represents to Rhaenyra has always been a cool thing to track so and then there's that other tie to Viserys just like studying that's what I was going to say it's not just Viserys it's also Daemon because we saw Daemon do this a lot in Pentos so like

This idea of Rhaenyra trying to... Because when we saw Rhaenyra and Alicent reading, just like girls, just like chumps, just like pals would do in the season one premiere, it was Alicent who was reading and Rhaenyra who was, like, listening and half paying attention and really much would rather be on Dragonback. You know, like, not... Never just about cake. Exactly. Never. And so, like...

The idea that she's trying to be a bit more like her father or trying to be a bit more like Damon and like that in stark contrast to Aegon.

Who is actively destroying the model and got rid of all the books. If we don't mind our histories, they will do the same to us. Like, Rhaenyra is heeding the warning there. Right. But that's just like, that's just her leading into that aspect. And again, I think she was content to leave a lot of that to Daemon of the dragon lore and all that sort of stuff. And with him gone, she's like, okay, I guess I better brush up. And it's interesting to think of like which, because Viserys and Daemon were both students of history but in different ways.

Sure. And so, like, which of those maybe is she going to be more inclined toward or will she be able to do both? Will she study the aspect of history that Viserys was so obsessed with? Will she study the might, the power, like dreams didn't make us kings, dragons did, obsession that Daemon focused on? Because that, I mean, we've literally heard it from Daemon, that was actually a source of division.

between Viserys and Daemon, that they didn't think of their own history of Targaryen might the same way. So for Rhaenyra to be able to maybe wrap her arms around all of it. That's more interpretive than it is like they both read a lot. And it's just sort of they interpreted things differently. Yeah, they took, they put weight in different aspects of their own history, but maybe Rhaenyra doesn't make that choice. Maybe she puts weight in all of it.

You know, I think that Alison callback is an interesting one, too, because the thing that always strikes me about that scene, other than just the charm and, you know, the friendship loss, is that like Alison thinks Rhaenyra can't be bothered to pay attention. But then Rhaenyra is able to recite every single detail of that. Like she it's just actually she doesn't have to work as hard at it. Yeah. As Alison did. And so to see her still devote the time and interest.

She knows it's go time. The page opposite the illumination is detailing stuff happened in Dorne. Bad stuff happened to dragons in Dorne. Hellhole! Is what is true there. Also, we got an email from another listener who is also a medievalist, and I'm just like, medievalists! Wonderful stuff. Keep the emails coming. Wonderful stuff. But Courtney, spelled in like a fun George R. R. Martin kind of way, or Kardashian kind of way if you prefer, said...

Of the book, of the illuminated sort of book that we get here, the art and manuscript style appear to be based on the German medieval manuscript, the Codex Manasseh, commissioned in the late 13th slash early 14th century by the Manasseh family in Switzerland. In German, this is where I'm going to try to speak some German, hold on to your hats and glasses. Very briefly. In German, they referred to it as the Große Heidelberger Liederhandschrift. So...

Or the Codex Vanessa, if you prefer. But I just thought that was really cool. And Courtney enclosed some photos that made it like pretty clear this is like a direct sort of lift of a very famous manuscript that is in Heidelberg. So if you would like to go to Heidelberg and visit this Codex to see the inspo that they drew. But like also they were talking about in that library set. Yeah.

where we see scrolls galore, books all blah, that like every single scroll, little raven scroll, little everything was like handmade. And like, it just looks incredible. Astonishing. Absolutely incredible. Just breathes so much life into the world. I forgot to re, I meant to relook, but do you remember, I feel like those diamonds sort of with all the scrolls in them shape was, uh,

the structure in the Winterfell library, was that not a similar shelving structure? I'll have to rewatch. But I think that that was a similar sort of... Do you remember in the final season, they're like, guess what? Winterfell has a library, a place we have not spent much time thus far. It was interesting to hear in the House of the Dragons built that they... Because so much of it was like...

instead of bound books, they were scrolls. So they had to figure out a structure to just like house them and maintain their integrity. That was interesting. It's not just scrolls. Massaria is here too. So Stefan brings her in and they have a fascinating chat where it is clear to us and Massaria alike that Rhaenyra does not remember who Massaria is, which is like,

And actually, genuinely on the how much time has passed front, like a useful way to remind us that this was decades ago. That they stood on that bridge in Dragonstone. Exactly the same age. Yes. As does Sir Kristen Cole. Yes, indeed. I know that part's funny with the Aegon-Otto like age divide. It's like Kristen and Aegon are not peers. They're not the same age.

They may both be peacocks, but they're not savage. Yeah, they are not. But I mean, it speaks to sort of like both Kristen and Damon in that Arrested Development phase. For sure. Absolutely. What did you make of this Masaria- I love this. Renier exchange. I love this. Again, we are hardcore coding her Varys. Oh, yeah. Right? Yes. Coming to the West, learning to listen, all of that sort of stuff. Yeah, toilet and service. Yeah. The way in which the moment where Masaria says-

He does do that, doesn't he? Yes. About Damon. Fleeing. Oh, just so good. Just a moment of recognition between these two women. A real, like, you feel completely alone in the world, but actually somebody understands. I get it. Yeah. And on the I get it front, the way that Masaria speaks of how the men of the realm will never accept her. Yeah. I thank him for it. For too long, I made it my aim to be of consequence. But now I see that was the wish of a child.

Damon, Otto Hightower, it makes no difference. They will never accept me. I might as well have remained a whore. This question of will the realm ever accept me has been the question for Rhaenyra since the moment she was named Aer, certainly since Aegon was born. And so to hear an idea like this from Mysaria, it's another scene later in the episode where she'll decide to let her go. You have to feel like that coupled with

Damon, yeah, I know him too. He does do that, doesn't he? That's what reached her. Were you reminded of Daenerys in the Break the Wheel speech when she says, like, Damon Otto Hightower makes no difference? I was like, Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell. They're all just folks on a wheel. This one's on top and that one's on top. And on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground. Another, like, small folk, you know, reference moment. Yeah.

Of course, we talked about this on Talk of Thrones, but of course, when...

And Massaria says, I see that that was the wish of a child. And Rhaenyra just said, when I was a child, I took this as a challenge to Daemon. I'm older now. I have challenges enough. Challenges enough. Right? I have enough things on my list. I don't need to add you to it. So it's like Massaria and Rhaenyra grew up, even if Massaria looks exactly the same, and Daemon just never has. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Speaking of people who have not grown up,

Aegon is here to squander the will of the people. Can I really quickly talk about Missaria's scar, though? Oh, yeah, yeah. Please. I just want to mention, you know, Rhaenyra's like, how'd you get that scar, right? And Missaria doesn't answer. But if you go back and track it in season one, when we see her for most of the series, she's wearing these, like, cloaks and chokers and things that connect across her throat to disguise the scar. And then when she is, like, owns her own... Yeah.

Like, pleasure, how's at the end of, you know, and she is a political operator. She starts to, like, reveal the scar or something. She no longer has to hide anymore. It's a mark of what I have endured to get here. Not, like, in the earliest moments when we meet her, it's all about her making herself soft and attractive to whatever man can offer her. It's a modicum of power. And I thought that was an interesting point.

Will we ever find out how she got her scar? I would rather not, actually. I think it's an interesting just like… Little mystery. Sort of similar to Varys. It's just sort of like something really bad happened before I got here, actually. Yeah. Rat catchers. Yeah. We travel into this scene next to a character named Ulf. Welcome to the show. Tom Bennett.

Just like stealing a little tuber from the backpack. A guy, he passes. Wonderful stuff. And then he wanders upon this scene of just absolute horror. Families looking upon their loved ones hanged in front of the keep, wailing. And he's like, what happened here? Okay. What happened here? And then we see cheese. But that's not what he says. Okay.

You're going to do the accents? A really brief accent corner. Taking a step in the corner? Because Tom Bennett, who I love, is playing Ulf. And he says, what they do. That's what he says. He goes, what they do. Right? And I was like, wow. Is this the first time we've heard a cockney in Westeros? It's not usually an accent that they use. And so then I was going back through and watching clips. And I was like, probably hot pie. Hot pie cockney accent. Yes. Winterhell?

Are you sure? Davos. Sir Davos. Liam Cunningham is an Irish actor. He's doing like this Geordie accent. And then Joe Dempsey as Gendry is doing this like South English. So like. Yummy. Never been with a woman. Flea Bottom. Melting pot. Just because. I love it.

Gendry and Davos grew up in the same area and like bond over it. They have wildly different accents. But I've been like waiting for like a hardcore Cockney. And that is what they do. Brought to the table for me and I loved it. Exciting to hear, to think about the moment when we'll get to hear Ulf talk about his bowl of brown experiences as Gendry and Davos once did, you know? Can't wait. We see cheese hanging.

There are two things of note here, other than the large thing, which is that Egon killed all of these innocent people, as Otto was about to point out.

She is not innocent. And the dog, the wonderful, beloved dog and icon instantly to all who watch the show, who was cruelly and despicably kicked in episode one is here. And he is looking up at Cheese's body and he's like, let's let's add a little whimper. I can't tell you how badly I wanted Cheese's body to fall in that moment with this dog to take a shit on his face. Like, that's all I wanted. It's all I wanted. Folks, I just need you to know that in our notes it said piss in his dead mouth.

So we've escalated from piss in his dead mouth to shit on his face. Why not both? Love it. Here's the other thing I wanted to share. This is an interesting book update because in the book we don't actually know what happened to Cheese. What happened to Cheese? Yeah. From Fire and Blood after 13 days of torment. 13 days is a lot. I was thinking of that when Chris was like, Egon got him in one blow. After 13 days of torment, Blood was at last allowed to die.

Queen Alicent, of course, unreliable narrators, Queen Alicent had commanded Larys Clubfoot to learn his true name so that she might bathe in the blood of his wife and children. But our sources do not say if this occurred. Sir Luthor Largent and his gold cloaks searched the Street of Silk from top to bottom and turned out and stripped every harlot in King's Landing, but no trace of cheese or the white worm was ever found in his grief and fury. King Aegon II.

Notice it doesn't say his grief, fury, and wisdom. In his grief and fury, King Aegon II commanded that all the city's rat catchers be taken out and hanged. And this was done. And then, apparently-

To take their place. Will this happen next episode? Will we just have basically like a Sir Pounce in every scene? Oh my God. It's like the end of the Marvels, essentially. Just lurking everywhere. I would love that. We are, of course, reminded of Arya chasing the cats in season one of Thrones. Seriouses.

But yeah, I mean, why pay rat catchers when you can just have cats? Sounds great to me. Let's hear what Otto Hightower has to say about this show. It is time for Egon to go, I would unname you, Hand of the King. Again. Otto finds Kristen and Egon looking out the window, had to wonder, it's a different window, but was Egon just like, man, longing for the simpler times when I could just

Perch on my window and jack off on the city below. You know? Simpler times, happier times. Don't worry. The only thing I had to worry about then was mom walking in. Yeah, yeah. Don't worry. He's still taking it out on the people below. Now he's just hanging hundreds of innocent people. It's fine. Joanna Otto is enraged. Not having a great day. I mean, he is.

Displeased. Displeased. He's like, did you not hear anything I said at the small council when I probably stepped in it a little bit and told you everyone already thinks that you're weak and they see omens everywhere? But I had a great plan. It worked. Why did you hang all of these innocent people? Calls him a fool. And then Aegon responds by saying, one guilty one.

Got one guilty one. And there's like a little bit of humor in the exchange, but it's a disturbing moment where you feel in real time like, okay, those little glimmers of possibility that we discussed that you saw in episode one, like could Aegon maybe try to be a king who communes with the small folk? It's done. You can feel this sinister...

vengeful force bubbling to the fore. Well, it doesn't matter that I killed all the innocent people. I got the one guilty one. It's vengeful and it's also just like, it's impetuous and it's just childish. Would you also, in addition to impetuous, call it thoughtless, feckless, self-indulgent? Not an ounce of feck here. Oh, Otto. Great stuff from Otto in this scene. And it's not just that he's listing all of the ways that Egon has failed and erred.

has been impetuous, has been thoughtless. He says, after all, I've done for you. And this is fascinating from Otto's perspective because we talked last week about that caprice of youth. Now, that was about Eamon. But like, you take the caprice of youth Eamon hand wave and then you take the Otto-Alice in conversation to end episode one or near the end of episode one. Like, we'll just wait it out. He'll get bored of it and then we'll be able to control him again. And like,

This ties to what we were talking about earlier. Otto is having to confront in real time. Very different context, but it did, like, remind me a little bit of the moment where Rhaenyra disobeys orders, flies to Dragonstone in Season 1, Episode 2, and that moment where Otto clocks her, right? He's like, you're never going to be the person who listens to me. But also just the way in which Otto is just out of his depth in terms of the game that we're playing here. Completely.

Just, he's playing a game of Scrolls and Ravens and that's not the game anymore. Let's hear a discussion about exactly that! At least I did something. I have not answered injury to the crown with, what, wailing and currying favor with the fishwives. I will not be thought weak. Even now, news of Rhaenyra's monstrous crime spreads through the realm. The great houses falter. They cannot but come to our side. I wish to spill blood, not ink. We must act.

Remarkable. I think he's pretending to be his own twin. Brilliant. Brilliant. Wonderful.

I will not be the first to say it, but it was in my notes the minute I saw this scene, which is the classic, iconic, onion line, heartbreaking, colon, the worst person you know just made a great point.

And what has the Christian Cole done? I emailed Steve this morning and copied you on it. I was like, please add this to the soundboard. Steve's like, you're joking. You think I haven't already put it on the soundboard. Thank you so much. It's there and it will remain there for all of time. This is wonderful. Otto calls it a prank. He calls it ill-considered and trifling. Yeah.

a little comedy bit with twins. A little switcheroo. A little, the old parent crap. Let's do it. Oh, man. And he can't get over, you know, and we've heard this from Otto dating back through the whole show, like, the Lena marriage proposal. Well, you've got to consult your counsel on this. Like, this is always his thing, right? He didn't give Egon the Tommen Tywin wisdom.

Wisdom makes a good king. Now, for Tywin, that was so self-serving because that meant, you talk to me and I'll tell you what is right. But Otto has never, he's doing things in this episode, we're praising him, he's seeing the board clearly. He has never understood how to try to bring other people into his web the way that Tywin has. Nobody in House of the Dragon is ever going to say that

Seven kingdoms united in fear of Otto Hightower. 100%. Never. Totally. You're thinking of Tywin, you have to think of a lot of the various hands, right? Like what was Tyrion good at? What was Ned good at? Not a lot as a hand. You know, what was Jon Arryn good at? The Madness of Mercy. Like Tywin, we're not for his terrible mismanagement of his own son.

Well, you know, that's the other that's the other interesting comp here is like thinking of a moment where Cersei goes to Tywin and says, like, all you do all the time is talk about legacy.

But did you ever bother to look at your own family? That's an interesting Tywin and Otto comp to me. Yeah. Thinking all the time about the rise of House Hightower, about installing Aegon on the throne, were you prepared for what that was going to look like? Now, it's not an Otto to anticipate blood and cheese, but he propped up this ruler who he doesn't know how to maneuver and operate. He forgot how to mold him.

Like he could have spent Aegon's youth not just scheming to put him on the throne, but training him, if not to be a good ruler, then like a pliable puppet. That was what made that. But he doesn't. He just completely neglects him. Totally. That was what made that line last week so odd to, I think, both of us that like, you're the great example to all of my kids. And it's like, is he? Oh, man. This is where like we get a lot of the age stuff, right?

Because Otto will later talk about the peacocking to Alicent, but... Yeah. He says Kristen's more worth than a hundred old men. Yep.

And I love the phrasing of that, though, because then we have to go back to the small council scene earlier when Otto says, J. Harris will do more than a thousand knights in battle. And then all the way back, of course, to the boy was right is worth a thousand times the price he paid. Otto is forever doing math when it comes to what's the tradeoff, what is worth what. And he found himself saying,

in his own word problem. He's now part of someone else's, like, equation. Yeah. He never did the math that Rhaenys did at the Heir's tourney, though, right? That it's been 70 years since King Maegor's end. These knights are as green as summer grass. None have known real war. Their lords sent them to the tourney fields with fists full of steel and balls full of seed, and we expect them to act with honor and grace? It's a marvel that war didn't break out at first blood. Like, Rhaenys clocking that as a tone-setting moment in the series...

I think when we rewatch this show for the rest of our lives, that will be one of the things that just feels like this is like a thesis here. And you can feel this. I mean, Kristen has actually known real battle, but you feel it with Aegon here. You feel it with all of these characters who are like, these old guys? Get them out of here. No. Time for the young bloodthirsty to come in. Viserys' dignity. Yeah. Otto mourning Viserys' dignity. Well, that's the thing about Otto is he's just like any way the wind blows. Yeah.

What narrative is most convenient to him in any given moment? Is the narrative that Aegon has all of the trappings of legitimacy? Or is the narrative that... Totally. ...hasty coronation, dragon bursts forth? Is Viserys an idiot, weak king? Totally. Or is Viserys an honorable king who is dignified and has a legacy to preserve? Otto has...

no solid opinion about anything other than his own ambition. I think you're completely right because like you would, the most charitable read, like the generous read that you'd want to bring to this if you were team green.

is, oh, maybe Otto is doing what we're saying, like, Damon's not capable of or Kristen's not capable of. Like, a moment of reflection, right? No. And the first firing, when Viserys in episode four kicks him out and he says, you think yourself a cunning man? Your designs are obvious.

Again, that's the real distinction between Otto and Tywin to me is like Tywin's designs weren't always obvious, at least not the way that he sought to execute against them. But Otto's, anyone can clock what he's trying to do with enough exposure to him. And even like, he also just doesn't know how to make moves from behind someone else, like behind Alicent for certain. But like thinking about Tywin orchestrating the Red Wedding.

And having his hands very clean of that whole thing. Right. And thinking of Laris and the various strings that he plays. Like, in this scene, and we talked about this before, but in this scene, to hear Aegon say, you were my father's hand, not mine, which is exactly what Laris says to him last week. He planted the seed and it instantly flowered. But it's not that Aegon says, you know, Laris said to me this. Laris is...

invisible in this manipulation, and that is not something that Otto is ever capable of. So Chris asked us that on... Right, Otto wants everyone to see how hard he's working. Chris asked us that on Talk the Thrones, like, would Laris have been a better choice? And there's the obvious, like, because of my hand will be a steel fist. That's not the type of power Aegon wants here. But also, you made the really important point on Sunday, that's not what...

Laris would choose. There's just too much attention. This is what influence looks like. Once you pin that hand of the king pin on you, there is, like, there's a target on your back. For sure. Okay, speaking of just really quickly, the...

dispensability of hands of the king. I just want to mention that Chris also asked us on Sunday if a lord commander or if a king's guard had been promoted to hand of the king. And we were like, yes, but we didn't get into it. So just to say that an example, and we talked about this in season one, but Sir Ryan Redwine... Died off screen between episodes. Tough one. Tough one. Yeah.

For that Lord Commander. But he was Lord Commander and Hand of the King for a time. How'd he do? How was he at the job, Jo? Listen. But what I think is interesting is like what you pointed out on Sunday is this idea that like there have been many men of many different temperaments. And what I kind of think is fascinating about King Jaehaerys, who ruled for a long time with his sister, who is also his wife, is that he chewed through seven hands.

And that include a Lord Commander, a Septon, Septon Barth. Oh, yeah. His heir, which is either a great idea or a bad idea. I don't know, depending on the heir, probably. But like, Jaehaerys is trying out all different kinds of slayers. And then like ends with Otto. Yeah. I don't know if you were to be- The heir, Viserys and Daemon's father, of course. That has to have a huge bearing on why Daemon was like, why didn't you ever ask me to be your hand? Right. But Daemon would be the worst hand. Oh, yeah.

Who do you think, who would you pick to be Hand of the King? If I were Aegon? Yeah, let's say if you were Aegon. I think it was the best. Lionel's strong. Oh, Lionel was a great hand. I mean, Lionel actually gave, I always love the moment in season one where Viserys is like, and who will you suggest? Your own son, a breakbones? And he's like, no.

Like, no, I think you should. I think it should be Laenor. Yeah. Like, he was the only one who brought unbiased impartial counsel. Genuinely talking strategy and seemed like a pretty good dude. Yeah. Like, Lionel would never have had a moment. I mean, he tried to quit, right? He tried to quit and Viserys wouldn't let him. He would never have a moment like the one Viserys and Otto had where Viserys says, I only now realize how well calculated it was of something Otto had done. Yeah. Just would never have been in that position. Yeah.

He is in the position here of laughing at Aegon's face, though, when Aegon says, he made me king of his father. Is that what you think? So this is Aegon's great fear, Jo. Is that what you think? That he wasn't the one his father chose or wanted. That he wasn't good enough. And that's true, and Otto is admitting it. So all of that weakness talk. I genuinely think when Aegon is crying later... It's about this? It's about all of it, but that this is...

in the goat stew. Right. It's part of what he's mourning. It's not just to Harris. It's the loss of this little, like, ember possibility that maybe he was good enough for his own family. Yeah. That maybe his father ever thought of him that way. Okay. So who's he giving the hand pin to? It's Kristen. Did you enjoy Kristen's little whimper? Like, the little whimper he emitted? He was like, oh, your grace. Oh, I'm a dog.

In this hour, you have proven yourself of more worth than a hundred old men. My new hand will be a steel fist. And that fire and blood, we are done writing letters line that we like to talk about. So I'm sure everything will be fine here. Well, he comes up with a brilliant idea right off the bat. I mean, he already did this before he got his promotion. He came up with Carmel Bull.

Before. Pre-promotion. The promotion. It's a brilliant idea. What will he think of next? Certainly not a laughable prank. Man. A brilliant idea. You acceded to this prank. Here comes Arik. Let's do it. To Dragonstone.

Rhaenyra has freed Mysaria, who, very helpful timing here, spots Arik. I just love how dirty and tired she looks on her way to the boat. She's just like, I'm done. I'm over it. I need a shower. I'm going to Essos. Fuck you guys. Not too dirty or tired to just pause and take a beat and reflect rather than shouting, hey, wait, when last we met, there were...

She's deciding if it's worth it for her to stick her neck out for Rhaenyra. Absolutely. And I completely understand. Daemon just, like, threw her in the cell. She just got out of there. I think what's interesting is that she actually very clearly doesn't take long to think of it, to make her decision. Because if she had taken long, Aeric with an E wouldn't have made it into Rhaenyra's chambers in time to stop Aurek with an A. Like, Mysorea makes her decision pretty quickly here. I mean—

Yes, somewhat quickly. We're not sure how long Arik was like fumbling around in the hallways. Like doing their rounds? Doing their evening rounds? Yeah, but certainly she didn't like get on the boat and decide like this. No, she's like, she sees him, she stops, she reflects, and she's like, okay, I'm going to go prevent what is clearly a nefarious prank unfolding. The enemy is about, good sir. We've talked about many people with many jobs. There's smiths, there's rat catchers, blah, blah, blah. I just want to shout out Alinda, who is just trying to unbraid Rhaenyra's hair.

That's all she's trying to do. The way she keeps just moving forward. Rhaenyra's just like, I have thoughts and feelings and a mood, and I'm just like, let Elinda do her job, please. Great stuff. So, here it is. Cargo Bowl. Just as Blood and Cheese were able to enter the royal chambers at the Red Keep,

Eric with an A, Arik with an A, is able to impersonate Eric with an E and make his way into Raniera's bed chambers here. Believe me, I had no choice. That's what he says as he is about to make his move and then his brother comes in and they fight. And he goes, brother! Brother! As every sibling has ever said when they see their brother. Brothers! Brother! Brother! Brother fighting brother.

One soul in two bodies, as Eric with an A said earlier, and they're cutting each other down here because of this doomed, cursed war. We were born together. You parted us. But I still love you, brother. So there's this. Can I just say, you and I disagree about how hard or easy it was to track which was which.

I will say that's the line you parted us that I was like, that's Eric with an A. That's not an Eric with an E sentiment. That's an Eric with an A sentiment. Right. Because Eric with an E is like, I understand why my brother did what he had to do. And Eric with an A is like, you left. You left us. Yeah. Yeah.

Has this scene grown on you at all in the couple days since watching or no? I like that, as I mentioned on Sunday, I liked that Rhaenyra was there. I think the fighting is good. I just remain not emotionally invested in these guys. Yeah. And I'm sorry. Yeah. I am...

You know, I said on Talk to Thrones that I was, like, shocked that this worked for me. I should say, like, I've always really loved this stretch of fire and blood, the different accounts of what happened between Eirik and Arik. And not just because we get the, like, identical in all respects, not even their fellows of the Kingsguard could tell the two apart set up so that we understand how we could be in this position and, like, Laurent in the show matching with the witch. Witch! Witch is Eirik!

But because of the differing accounts, the unreliable narrator stuff that we like to talk about, there's the, for obvious reasons, singers and storytellers have shown a marked preference for the tale as told by Munkin. Maesters and other scholars must make their own determination as to which version is more likely. All that Sept and Eustace says upon the matter is that the Cargill twins slew each other and there we must leave it. Because like, this takes on the place of legend in the history of the kingdoms. There's this like tragic quality to it, but this romantic quality to it, brother against brother. There's of course the symbolic,

application to the dance, to brother fighting brother, a family tearing itself apart. And so I've always loved that part of the book. I just think, to your point, like, because of how the cargills were used in season one, episode nine in particular, I just, like, wasn't really prepared to care about how this went down in the show. But I really liked it. I liked playing with that, like,

okay, it was kind of, like, annoying to you guys when you watched this in the penultimate episode of season one. Who's whom? Like, well, what do we know about these people? And then that becomes the tension in this sequence and who's going to survive and are you sure? And, like, yeah, we're prepping for pause. We're watching closely. I think, like, we are able to say Eric wins.

You can track the movements, but also just the fact that he says, your grace, which Arik with an A would not say, or forgive me before he impales himself. The fact that many people watching this are just going to be like,

who's going to win and is Raniere going to be okay felt dramatically compelling to me. And then I think it's mostly just what it represents about the nature of this conflict. I liked hearing Kondal, this was in an interview with THR, talk about the Sansa connection here. Sansa romanticizing this, I thought was fascinating. In that same interview, he talked about the Civil War comp that

Chris Ryan brought up this sort of brother versus brother idea, but then he was also like Arthurian legend. And I was like, excuse me, sir, what Arthurian legend? And it took me a while because this is not a common Arthurian legend, but it's certainly what George was inspired by because the brothers in Arthurian legend are Balan and Balan. Like that's classic Eric and Ark shit right there, right? Yeah, tremendous. But Balan and Balan who are cursed brothers.

multiple times over and through a torturous amount of circumstances to find themselves facing down each other on a bridge, one of them in, like, enchanted armor that he can't take off, the other in a shield that doesn't belong to him, so they don't know that each one is each other, and then they kill each other on the bridge there. So, like...

That is almost certainly what George R.R. Martin is talking about. But yeah, this idea, I mean, Sansa, sweet little bird that she is. Little dove. Darling little dove and sparrow that she is, loves to romanticize things. But beyond Sansa, I think the really fun romanticization here is Bran and this idea that

Eric and Ari Cargill are the first characters from The Dance of the Dragons that George R.R. Martin ever wrote about. And he wrote it in the original Game of Thrones book, which was written over 30 years ago. Wild to think about how long ago. In the original Game of Thrones book, quote, brand new all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Love. Sir Wynne of the Mirror Shield. Sir Ryan Redwine, who died off screen. Famous for the great hand. Oh.

Prince Aemon, the Dragon Knight, the twins, Sir Eric and Sir Arik, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. Chills. The Cargill's are with Star

This whole thing for George is wild. So that was satisfying. On a storytelling level, it's interesting. On an emotional level, I don't care about the cargo. Well, guess what? Now they're gone. I care about Rhaenyra. And I care about Emma's performance as Rhaenyra. Yes. Like, processing this. It's really good. None of these characters are ever going to feel safe again. Right. We're breaking into bed chambers.

Speaking of bedchambers, we go to our closing stretch of the episode. Alicent, the father of the son and the unholy dick. That's what I'm calling this. Great. The debrief, Otto and Alicent chatting about his latest ouster. Last time it was more of a heated argument in the rain. This is more tears here. More tears here for sure. I loved Alicent's face as Otto is just shitting all over Kristen. Right. Right.

He's young and unschooled. And he's young and unschooled. His faith is in steel and bone. And she's like, when you say bone. He's intemperate. But he's loyal. Joanna. Yeah. An amazing thing happens here. Otto's like, I'm going to go back to Old Town. Yep. The Hightower's still off strength and you have a son there who will take more kindly to instruction. Darren may yet help us in weeks to come. At long last. Darren May.

Viserys and Alyson's fourth child and third son has been mentioned on the television program House of the Dragon. I am elated. And he has a dragon. I am, by the way. I know that when the showrunner says things, it's a real thing, and I can't actually just dismiss it and ignore it. We're having a tough time with this one. Ryan Connell gave an interview to Variety. Yeah. He said, Darren has not been cast yet, so don't expect Darren this season. But also...

He's going to be in the show. But he's going to be in the show. Yes. But also... Yeah. Yeah. He's not a dragon rider yet. We know he's not a dragon rider, but he's had a dragon born to him. So this would seem to indicate that they're aging Darren down? Which, like, wouldn't be the first. Joff is younger here. Agon and Viserys are younger. Reading Fire and Blood, I was reminded this week that I was reminded that Bela, there's a line that's like...

moon dancer could not take bail as weight yet right like this is what i was going to bring up that they can change the timing yeah bail is not a dragon rider i don't know i think this is just him being like yada yada we're not really ready to deal with darren yet i see absolutely no reason that come season three when darren is presumably cast in the show they can't be like but now he's a dragon rider the last two months he figured it out um to sarian shout out thrilled

Shout out our listener, Lisa, who in her rewatch, and I'm sure, I'm confident we talked about this at the time. We did. Oh yeah, of course we did. But in season one, episode 10, Damon's doing dragon math. That scene we love to talk about. And he says, Dragonstone has 13 dragons to their four. In real time, like took that as a promise. Yeah. We were like, Darren's coming, right? So the greens have three adult dragons. Right.

plus Tesarian, Darren's dragon, offscreen, not an adult yet, but Damon's counting him. I mean, the Darren mention was just absolutely thrilling. Were you equally excited by the Highgarden mention here? Yes, because it made me think of Alan Beesbury. Bees! Our beloved bees. Alan Beesbury, Lyman Beesbury's heir, who, you know, is like, excuse me, where is my grandsire?

Let him out of the dungeons. Is he in the dungeons? Where is he? Sweet bees. Ah, man. Great stuff. Otto's just like, I want to go home. My house, the Hightower's Darren, and Allison's like, I have another job for you. Yeah. I actually love her doing to him what he would do to her all the time. Actually, we need you at the Highgarden. Yeah. Duty. Duty. He does not wish to hear of it. Her sense that she's ready to confess. This is incredible. This is the Kendall Roy moment for Allison, right? What?

I really wish that I would have been like, you know, I'm so tired. And let's talk about it in the morning. And then she wakes up and there's just a note. Do you want an egg? Do you want an egg? Do you want an egg? Do you want an egg or something? That's a good impression. Oh, I've been doing a Harriet Walter impression since Sense and Sensibility. That's really, really, really good.

Oh, man. Otto. He didn't need money. Couldn't wait. I mean, I guess, you know, he did have to kind of like gird for it, but couldn't wait to tell Viserys about his daughter coupling in the bowels of a pleasure den, but won't let his own daughter. I do not wish to hear it. Do not wish to hear it. Wild stuff. Okay, well, Alicent is then off to another room. This is where she finds Aegon weeping. Very sad. And this is, to go back, I don't need to dwell on it, but our listener Cecilia, we actually got a few emails saying,

It's interesting. Thank you. I guess there's some sort of – there's a discourse that I've been missing somewhere in the dark corners of the internet of people really hammering Alison for being a bad mother and maybe hammering her harder for that than they are –

like Agon for not being able to tell the difference between his twins or Damon for skipping Luke's funeral and ignoring Bela in the hallway and stuff like that. Like maybe that Allison is giving more shit for being a bad parent than all the dudes who have been bad parents on the show are. Or this idea of like slut shaming Allison for having sex and neglecting her children or something like that. I see these as wildly different things. Well, like I...

The volume of emails on this subject are so high that I'm like, this is clearly a conversation that's happening somewhere. It's not a conversation you and I have ever had. We do not associate these things at all. We are pro-Allison having sex, just maybe not with Kristen Cole. And her being a distant, emotionally constipated, like, parental figure is something that's understandable given all that she was brought up in.

It's still not a great thing to leave your child sobbing, especially if you've propped him up wholly unprepared to be king of the realm, you know? Now is the moment to have a conversation to break that cycle. So, like, Alicent is, like, a very...

damaged, broken person as are most of the people on this show. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that the things she does are, like, wholly excusable. But yeah, I'm not... I mean, in terms of the bad parent ranking, I just do not even... It's a crowded field. ...put her in the top five, necessarily. It's a crowded field. She goes from Egon's chambers to her own. Kristen is waiting. He's on the bed. He gets up. He walks over. She pushes him and shoves him around. Yeah. And then they begin to...

couple. Yep. Yet again. Coupling. And this is where we think that perhaps a, quote, animalistic sex scene was cut from the show. Release the animalistic kernel cut. That's what I say. It was already a 69-minute episode. Nice. And they didn't have room for that. They had to have Rhaenyra watching dust motes. To be clear, I loved the dust mote sequence, so I wouldn't cut it. Joanna! Wigwatch? TM? With Joanna Robinson?

Will you wear wigs? Love it. Thank you. Two things really quickly. Yeah. Number one, Kristen Cole's wig is really wigging out in this episode. And we know from like the next time on trailers.

the terrible haircut is coming. So they slapped this wig on him knowing that they were not going to use it for much of the season because he's getting like, I guess a fresh cut to be like, I'm Hand of the King now. Gotta get my fresh cut in. So a haircut is coming for Chris and Cole. But the wig I thought this episode, especially rewatching season one when that's like Fabian, it's like he has beautiful hair. So like his hair being so like

Like lustrously. Oily is usually negative, but that's not how I would use it here. It's just got... Anyway, the wig does not compare to the real thing. Baby, I hope you're okay. I'm sorry about your Instagram comments. Okay. And then also, so many emails and tweets. Thank you. About how much hair a four-year-old can grow. Because I was like, can a four-year-old even grow as much hair as J. Harris has? Yes. So many photographic evidence to...

To that point, and I will just shout out one in specific, which is our listener Lou set in her baby Desmond. And Desmond is named Desmond because Lou was a Storm listener during the pandemic. And so he's named for Desmond Hume because of the last podcast we did. So, of course, I'm sorry to all the other emails, but of course, I'm going to prioritize the one where I guess I had some sort of gentle hand in naming a baby Desmond.

But yeah, there's a photo of Desmond who had like a baby Desmond or a four-year-old Desmond who had cut off a like very long ponytail. So four-year-olds can grow very long hair. Thank you to all the parents and teachers who let me know. I appreciate you. Now we know. Boy, just a bunch of notes from medievalists and parents of four-year-olds. I love it. Me too. I love learning. A vibrant mix. Speaking of learning, no time for amusements, Thailand. It's time for the book look ahead.

Okay. The Sound of Swords, that's your warning. We are about to do a little bit of, oh, what is being set up in this episode that is still to come in the story talk if you do not want to hear that. Time to go. Thanks for spending all of this time with us today. We cherish you. We'll see you Thursday for Accolade. Accolade! And we'll see you Sunday night for Talk the Thrones. Bye. Bye. Okay, everybody else. Book look ahead time.

Where to begin? Let's talk about the dipshits and the Black Council. Keltigar, this was an interesting one because he is really focused on how the people of the realm, how the small folk are going to respond for somebody who will be a, at least based on the text, large driver of inciting their rage and resentment. This is, we may not know about Aragorn's tax policy, but we do know about Bartimus Keltigar's. Yeah.

And how about Sir Alfred, your guy? My guy? Your guy. How dare you? Absolutely not. I will own Larys. You will own Maegar. But none of us are owning Sir Alfred Broome, who sucks. They're doing a good job, even in this quick little exchange. He made me so mad. So, yes. Not a lasting bond here.

A moment of anticipation for his grisly death. I honestly can't wait. Wherein he agonized for two days, writhing and twisting before dying on the iron spikes that he has dropped onto. I honestly can't wait. Great.

Also, our listener Sam messaged me and he was like, do you think the Butcher's Ball, which is where Kristen Cole dies, going to be like a national holiday? I'm actually like more excited for that than I was for the Purple Wedding, than I was for Joffrey's death. I can't wait for the Butcher's Ball. Cannot wait. And what I really hope when it comes to the Butcher's Ball is that it's as sort of like –

lame of a death as it is in the book it should be absolutely just like some arrows got him the end and and just to wind up no need to create ollie or anything else to like you know well i just like this like very sad march of attrition yeah just i can't wait pathetic in the years uh yeah in the words of raniera joanna david raniera

I don't want to confront the possibility that we might not see them together again this season. Connell says the remainder of the season is very, quote, the remainder of the season is very much a study of Damon and Raniere's marriage, which I think just means thematically. Yes. Will they be studying that? Separately. Independently. One in a toehold. An independent study. Damon and Raniere's marriage.

I was watching a video of Josh O'Connor talking about how he mastered the Prince Charles accent for the crown. And he says the great tip to get into it is that instead of saying yes, you say ears. So you say yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Oh, interesting. Will you see me? Yes. Yes. I like it. Now I know. Speaking of people, are we going to see them again this season? Otto, what is he going to do for the rest of the season? Like, slash, how much are we going to see him? Like, are we going to get to see some Highgarden, Beesbury antics? Are we going to see him? Beesbury should be joining the story soon, so I hope so. I hope so. Are we going to see him fast forward to the triarchy? Like.

like dealing with the triarchy or whatever. Like what is Otto? Or did Risa Fonz know he's not in the rest of the season? He's like, I'm going to put everything into this final scene. Oh my God, can't be. No. That's why we only have six episodes left, but no. No. I mean, no. Obviously more Hightowers are coming. Right. Ormond, Gawain, but yeah, I can't imagine we'll be away from Otto for long. It would be great to go to Highgarden. I don't know. But God, I mean, if Darren's not coming till next season...

Well, fuck. It's similar to Tom Glyncarney, who I believe is like, let me juice every second of screen time I have before I'm hideously disfigured. So you remember my face come Emmy time, you know? Yeah. Oh, man. Elena? Little toys? Let's talk about little toys. What do you want to hit next? Yeah. Aegon and Viserys. Playing with a little dragon. Oh, man. This got me. It did. I guess, like, maybe Stormcloud's not going to

be in the show given their ages. I don't know if Viserys will still lose his egg even if Stormcloud isn't here and killed and Aegon doesn't have his, like, tragic return flight. Like, I don't know. What will happen with the gay abandon in that whole plot? There is that shot from the, like, this season on trailer where we see, like, a clutch of dragon eggs on the move, which, you know, we think is, like, Rhaena taking them to the Eyrie, but, like...

Will that – will it just be the eggs instead of the dragons instead or something like that? I'm so curious to see how they handle all that. But just in general, you know, knowing the future for Aegon III and for Viserys II, like, thinking – seeing them with this dragon imagery and, like, your mom handing this legacy to you. Like, for the non-book readers. Aegon the dragon's bane. For the non-book readers, Aegon the dragon's bane. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, Aegon and Viserys in the future of the dragons after the dance is not great, Bob. All right. Alice Rivers, who we're so excited to meet, who's at Harrenhal, has been cast. Gail Rankin is the actress who's playing Alice Rivers. We mentioned this in some of the lead up if you were listening to all of those spoiler sections. But this idea that Alice Rivers may be like Melisandre as a woman who has been around a long time but looks younger. Right.

So your question here was like, is Eamon's preference for Madame Sylvie setting up his dalliance with an older woman in Alice Rivers? I do want to point out that Gail Rankin is 34 and Ewan Mitchell is 27. I think they look roughly the same age, so it's not going to be as much. It won't feel that way. It won't feel that way. So he is playing a character who is…

much younger than 27. But he doesn't look much. He doesn't look it, but he is supposed to be considerably younger than that. I don't think they're going to, I don't think that age gap is going to be like as significant on the screen, but your canonical point stands. I mean, the way that the show has handled that, I would say in general, has not been its strength in the sense that Alison looks like she is the exact same age as her children because the performers are

So we'll see how that goes. But in addition to the, oh, okay, is this going to be setting up this, like, I'm into older women thing. I need the mommy figure in my life. The actual milk part of it is difficult not to think about because Alice is the wet nurse, right? Like, are we going to see Eamon go straight from the teat here? That's tough. I'm expecting it now after what we saw in this episode. Okay. Okay.

Other Aitman things I want to talk about. Yeah. The Harrenhal mural in his room. I can't remember if we talked about it last week, but just, you know, just to re-underline this, like, many shots of him in his room have been, like, brilliant.

But just the way it was framed in this week's episode just felt very like... Yes. And here it is. And here's a demon's shared obsession. Harrenhal. Again, if you're listening to this spoiler section, you're not a book reader. Harrenhal, not only where Eamon is eventually heading, but where he and Damon will have a showdown. I can't wait. Probably my single most anticipated thing in the entire story. Similar to the cargo bowl. We'll die in each other's arms. Yeah.

The succession question posed by the absence of Maelor. So Jaehaerys' younger brother, Maelor, not in the show. I mean, Aemon just next in line for the throne. Right. Definitely. But that's not... Actually, to me, the thing that is odd about this is just that... I mean, I think that's unquestionably the case now. What's odd about this to me is that when Jaehaerys was alive...

Aemond talked about it like this was the case when it wasn't. Like, in season one, episode nine, he's like, uh, I'm next in line. And if, like, they look for me, I intend to be found. It's like, he's got a male heir. So, yeah, no maelor. There's not a version of the story where Jaehaera can be heir because then Aegon's entire claim falls apart. Exactly. So it's Aemond. Yeah. That's like...

I don't know. It's just, in removing Maelor, they have recreated Rhaenyra versus Daemon. I was hung up on that last episode in terms of the Maelor absence and what that meant for Aegon's line of succession. The thing, I kind of like talked myself out of it just because Maelor, and this could have changed. Maelor could have been in the show and then more present. But Maelor's like not present in Fire and Blood until he reappears and then is immediately killed. Right.

So because he ultimately is also taken off the board. Yeah. And Eamon is acting as Prince Regent rather than. Okay. Small folk harbingers. Oh, yeah. Just a lot of storming set up. Who will play the shepherd? You know, after our David Tennant talk, I regretted not suggesting him to be the shepherd. Not too late, I think.

Move over, Serbetus. Oh, man. Yeah. So the small folk, the seas that they're pointing for, the fact that the small folk will eventually rise up

kill the dragons that remain in the dragon pit because they are so abused under this civil war. Very upsetting. Again, to what we talked about, I think, a bit on Sunday, this idea that, like, I don't feel like the cargo bowl was set up very well in terms of my emotional investment in those characters, but I see them doing so much work to set up various things. The small folk, but also the seeds. The seeds. Seeding the seeds. Going home with Hugh.

So we talked last week about our shock that we were with Hugh this early, that we learned that Hugh was in King's Landing, that this was like... What's sending him to Dragonstone. Yeah, so that was already on our minds after last week. Now seeing him with the family, understanding, I think, being primed for like,

okay, the money's not going to come. Right. That will be the thing that takes him from Aegon's camp to Rhaenyra's. My question now, watching him, because like hearing him say specifically like the selfishness of people, I'm kind of like, he doesn't really seem like a bad guy. Like,

Now that could change. Does he get drunk with power as soon as he becomes a dragon rider? No, I mean this idea that like similar to Alicent, we're just like we're creating a fully like formed human and not just like a shitty dude who was a traitor. Totally. Because the fact that Hugh, okay, again, I'm trying to explain for people who haven't read the books, but like Hugh and Ulf.

who become dragon riders, will betray Rhaenyra and go to the other side. So there isn't a great humanistic explanation other than, like, drunkenness and greed for that move. So are we instead getting these two characters, Ulf and Hugh, meeting them now, meaning, like, getting to know them more, who when they make those moves, it will just make more humanistic sense? Totally. And, like, I think we were starting to think last week, okay, well, will we under... I was thinking of it more like...

Well, we understand that he was capable of treachery before the great treachery. Right. But now I'm thinking like, OK, if the move is driven by a desire to protect his family, then maybe that's also what drives the other thing.

Or, like, yeah, is his family being threatened? That's a possibility. Does Laris have his family or whatever? Like, is his family being threatened? Or does he see that the small folk are still suffering under Rhaenyra? Something like that. Great setup for Adam and Seasmoke. Not just the way that he's looking up and looking at Seasmoke, but the things that Adam says. If I had such a chance, I would leap at it. Another opportunity to distinguish yourself. He's talking about getting on the ship, but...

we see that Adam is a character who will not miss his chance for something great. He would answer the call for the sewing. I'm good. I'm fine.

Adam and Alan being set up as Corlys' bastard, right? Like, he owes us, brother. So it seems clear they know that Corlys is their dad. Oh, they definitely know that Corlys is their dad. Yeah, interesting. In the book, there's this, the story is that they're Laenor's bastards. And then later it's like, but actually maybe they're Corlys' bastards. But no matter what, if they're Corlys' bastards, do we have any questions about, like, where their dragon riding blood comes from? Because I was looking at the family tree. Yeah. Corlys' family tree.

Because if they're Laenor's kids, which age-wise does not make sense or whatever, that Targaryen blood comes from Rhaenys, right? The Velaryons are not dragon riders. And looking up Corlys' family tree, I'm not seeing... Yeah. Like, his...

In classic J.R.R. Tolkien style, it's like Corliss' dad and then question mark for his mom. I think we should plan outside of the book reader section when we learn who they are in the show to do a much longer breakdown of how could Adam be a writer? What are all the possibilities? I actually was chatting with Riley and Cram about this earlier.

before the season because like sort of anticipating that this would you know be something we were talking about soon trying to run through all the scenarios and like I think there are there are a few one is just and I think Nettles was going to be one of the characters who was our way into discussing this but the idea that like maybe you don't have to be a Targaryen to be a rider maybe when you talk about propaganda right what greater bit of propaganda could there be than we are closer to gods than men because we're the only ones who could do this so that's one possibility it's just they don't have Targaryen blood and you don't need it right

I think another possibility is, to your Corliss point, that somewhere, because the Velaryons and the Targaryens are old Valyrian families, so it's somewhere in there. There is some Targaryen blood in his line. Some latent blood, yeah. Their mother could be a seed. Right. That seems totally implied. I love that idea. Yeah.

And there are other possibilities, too, but I think those are some of the answers. Maybe it would just be way too obvious if Adam had silver hair, but it's interesting that he doesn't, you know? Ulf, you loved your time with Ulf. I loved my Ulf intro. I thought it was wonderful. Condal has said that Darren has not been cast, but dodged the question when it comes to Nettles. Yeah. Shout out David Jacoby, our colleague and listener who is Nettles' number one fan.

Nettles this season. So many texts from Jacoby about Nettles. A lot of Nettles texts came to us. I love it. The best.

Do we want or need Nettles? I kind of like the idea of saving Nettles for season three. If we have to, like, Hugh and Ulf and Adam and Alan and, like, all, you know, and Alice Rivers and all these people that we're going to meet. Simon Strong, Wayne Hightower. Like, we're meeting all these people. Yeah, it's a lot. Darren and Nettles roll up in season three and get more of, like, a spotlight intro. I really hope Nettles is in the show. I don't mind spacing till season three and separating her.

entry into the story from the sewing and the seeds. I was wondering if the silver-haired dancer in the brothel, not like that she's necessarily a dragon seed, but if we have this theory, wild theory based on one shot from the week ahead trailer, but like... Elinda. Elinda, Rhaenyra's handmaiden is in King's Landing. Has she been sent there?

by Miss Aria to be like, round up all the silver-haired people you can find, or here's a list of people that there's rumors that they might be Targaryen bastards of some kind or another, is that brothel dancer on the list. I'd pick her out as a Targaryen bastard if it were me, but, you know. Or she's just there because, as Miss Aria said in season one, she's got some blonde ones. Oh, man. Jace? Jace and Bela. Yeah. I...

In terms of running the Sowing the Seeds, the Dragon Seeds program. Yeah. Raniere in the library. Big part of that. Yes. Jace is obviously running this program in the book is a big part of that. Well, I mean, and Mushroom.

What is Bela's level of involvement going to be? Because we remember that Bela was under Damon's tutelage in Pentos. So is this like a Damon-Raniera, sorry, is this a Bela-Raniera-Jace joint? Right.

That shot of the dragon seeds at the table, it's like the dragon seeds are down here, then there's a gap, and then it's Jace and Bela and Rhaenyra. And of course, that's where they'd be sitting anyway, but it's just sort of like a, like, we're in charge, you are the people that we have drafted sort of thing. I don't know. It's interesting to me. I love it. Also on the Jace front. Yeah. Didn't freak you out to see a crossbow so close to Jace.

Jace will eventually be taken down. As you know. By some mirrish crossbow girls. I have been incredibly reluctant to concede that Gullet is not happening this season, even though it is just clearly not happening this season. And they have literally said, we have to move him.

move a major battle to season three. Like, it's not happening this season. I resisted and now I'm really happy because I just am not ready to say goodbye to Jace. It's going to be devastating and like, his scenes in the first two episodes have been so good. Yeah. Oh, man. And Vermax.

Devastating. I think his eagerness to... His frustration that Rhaenyra won't let him hop on the dragon and go patrolling. The little, like, petulant pommel sword move. So good. Which is a classic Daemon, like, move. He's like, well, fine. If you can't lean in a doorway, lean against your pommel. And his line to Bela of, like, I miss Luke. He's not going to let another one of his brothers go. And all of this is just, like, placing a...

leading up to this gullet moment where Jace goes to rescue his little toe-headed brothers and dies. And I think this is also where aging Joff down. Because like in the book, Joff's like, let me get on my dragon and go get vengeance for Luke. Like he's really kind of like the bloodthirsty one initially. And so he's just like,

really young in the show. And so Jace being, I mean, obviously he already, you know, Gullet is Jace's plot in the book anyway, but Jace being even more of our access point for like, I will be the one who fights not only to avenge my lost loved ones, but to ensure that no harm befalls anyone I care about again. And then for Joff, because Joff does have to still get to the point where he can

Get his little butt on a dragon. He's got to get on Cyrax. Like, that all has to happen. I mean, that's way in the future of the story. I'm still, like, for many reasons, but that among them, I'm like, are they stretching the dance timeline a little bit to age some of these kids up? But, yeah, the Jace stuff is going to be fucking gutting. Speaking of gutting, Rhaenys saying, in the meantime, I am here in Maelys. We will not let the queen falter. Also, the mind yourself moment.

Rhaenyra's about to lose that ally, that source of support. They're doing a really good job with the Rhaenys scenes. That's going to hit really hard. If Rooks rest, where Rhaenys dies on Maelys, if that happens in episode four, which we think because that episode's called A Dance of Dragons, if that's what that episode is, they only, I mean, they had a whole season, but they've got three plus episodes left.

to make us really bummed out that Rhaenys died. I would have been bummed out, whatever. But like, so to make her such an important source of support for Rhaenyra, to remind us of her warmth and intimacy with Corlys, like, you know, and then to take it away. And who will fill that void?

Not exactly the same. Not a dragon rider. But in terms of new people in Rhaenyra's life who she can maybe look to and trust. Good Mysaria set up in these first couple episodes. She needs a schemer on her team and she doesn't have one. Enter Mysaria. Yeah.

There's this line from the trailer. Your web runs unseen through King's Landing. Nice little Master of Whisperer set up there. There's this line from the trailer where Misaria says there's more than one way to fight a war. So, you know, it's just sort of like, okay, Daemon's like, let's get on our dragons and go. And Misaria's like,

How about some intrigue? Yeah. What's a Linda up to? I also thought on the Rhaenyra front that her paranoia is being, like, which is going to be a later part of the story, but they're doing a good job already and have been really since the beginning. Like, always wondering when somebody's allegiance will fade, when somebody who said they were on her side wouldn't be anymore. This has kind of been the story of Rhaenyra's life. But even just, like,

At best, I lose an asset to my cause. This is to Massaria. At worst, you betray me in some foul way. I have no interest in betraying you, Your Grace. So you say. Rhaenyra being a character who is never sure if allegiance is real or lasting. I cannot trust you, Daemon. Is such a part of what goes wrong. I cannot trust you, Daemon. And the way I already talked about Daeron, but just like thrilling. Okay, here's my question. Thrilling. Yeah.

Do you think they would ever do a thing where they don't show us Darren until he shows up at the battle on the dragon back? Totally possible. Yeah. And we're like, who the fuck is that? Yeah. I mean, we know. I can see it. And we'll be like, Darren! And everyone else at home is going to be like, who's that?

There's another dragon? Why is it blue? A little season one. Wait, who is this character energy? Yeah, why not? Great. I hope we get Honeywine. I hope we get Bitterbridge. I mean, Honeywine would have to move in order if Darren's not in the show till next season. And obviously, Tumpleton awaits. So I'm just thrilled that Darren has been mentioned. I'll settle for that for now. Yeah, fair enough. All right, we did it. We did it. Anything else? No, I think we really did it. That's a wrap on this very long podcast.

Steve has acceded to this prank. Thank you to our small council, John Richter and Steve Allman, for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgopal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomia Deneron for his work on the social for this episode. We will see you on Thursday for our Acolyte Deep Dive, episode five, Acolyte. Sunday, right after House of the Dragon, episode three for Talk the Throes. That's it. After all we've done for you. Thoughtless.

Beckless!