'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 8 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
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Hello and welcome to Talk the Thrones. We are here to break down the season finale of the second season of House of the Dragon. I'm Chris Ryan. This is Ringer Senior Staff Writer Joanna Robinson. And joining us, as always,

The person in charge of hosing down Triarchy Mud Wrestlers. Oh, boy. It's Valerie Rubin! Chris, it does not befit a prince to pout. Oh, yeah. Well, here we are at the end of a long two months. We've been through so much. Dragon fights, illness on the team, but we're back live in the studio. We are here on YouTube on the Ringerverse YouTube channel, and I just want to say, if you're watching us on YouTube...

live, you can ask questions in the chat. Jomie will throw them in here. We'll try to get to some while we're talking about the episode. Let's start really broad strokes with this episode, the eighth episode of the season. Yeah. Usually we are used to 10 episodes about Game of Thrones seasons. How's the Dragon? First season was 10, 9, 10. Did this feel like a finale? Was this a satisfying finale to you, Jo?

I think the way it ends, like the montage at the end and the score and all of that does feel very final and energizing. But I think in general it feels like an episode eight of a ten-episode season. Like I want those two more episodes. And maybe that's just me being greedy and just wanting more. There was the last 15 yards to go, you know? Won't be the last time football comes up today, I don't think. Yeah, I agree. I thought this was an enjoyable and –

good episode of House of the Dragon. Yeah. But as a finale, I think it was quite subdued. And while, like, a finale that is more muted than the penultimate episode, say, is not exactly new in the Thronesverse, that's actually, like, something of a Thronesian tradition. It was, I think...

hard not to feel like there was a 10-episode plan, and then we wound up with eight, and we couldn't get to time, money, whatever the case may be. We're just speculating. The two or three things that might have felt like the no-brainer conclusion points for the season. Yeah. And then what do you fill that space with that you have left?

and the triarchy and Reyna running around looking for her dragon. But there were a lot of great character-rich scenes in this episode, but that until the montage, we were, like, looking for that finale feeling a bit. That said, heading into season three, I think we're in, like,

bangers only. Yeah, we're a year away from being a year away. In terms of what's left. But we are two years away from that. On the one hand, yes, I agree. On the other hand, I feel like that's what we were telling people about season one is we're like, this is all set up and wait till we get to season two and it's just going to be all killer, no filler, you know? Good season of TV. Good season of TV. I will say that

I think it was like the best of this show and sometimes not the worst. That's a little bit unkind. But like I think some of the flaws of the show were on display in this one where thematically in terms of the dialogue, in terms of like some of the inter character scenes. Awesome. You know, like really good stuff. Really like things I'll remember. If you end a season of TV and you want to get that feeling like now everything has changed. I

I think you're asking probably, especially the more casual viewers, to be like really counting on the dragon seed sowing stuff to be like a much more significant thing than maybe it feels like just yet because we haven't seen them in action. So you're just like, okay, like next year. I will not let you diminish the red sowing. No, I mean, in hindsight. I do think it's interesting before the season started, Ryan Connell's like, we're basically doing two battles.

Yeah. And we got Rook's Rest, definitely a battle. And then I guess they're counting the red sewing as a battle. And certainly on like a budgetary level. A lot of dead bodies. Or like dead body level. That is a battle. But I think that primed a lot of us to think like, oh, we were going to get one more battle this season. Yeah. And if I can just nitpick a little bit, just a little bit. It's just that you can feel...

all of the gathering armies like right on the doorstep of the thing that we wanted to see. So like they're in the water, they're in their boats, they're on their way. That's the montage. I think it's a completely valid critique and I won't be surprised if a chunk, however large, we'll see if the fandom feels that like if you spend a lot of your season positioning different forces to converge on a given location and then that doesn't happen inside of like eight episodes that are 60,

to 70 minutes is not like no room to make a big season of TV, right? So yeah, I think there will be a, oh wow, we didn't get like a grand set piece in the finale sensation at least among some fans, but we have a lot to talk about. So we're

I think there are at least two scenes in this episode that are among the best that not only House of Dragons but Thrones has ever been. Oh, wow. I do. And then also, I mean, perhaps there are people sitting at home just being like,

Daenerys Targaryen was in this episode. Maybe that's a big enough deal. I think that actually dovetails really well into... Obviously, a very big theme of this episode was the idea of these characters being aware that they are part of a larger story. Yes. And to some extent, it's about free will. To some extent...

It's this idea of a tradition not only in the past, but this projection into the future that they're just part, a cog in the wheel, if you will, a spoke in the wheel. Wow. Are you going to break that wheel? Well, someone will eventually, but she's only in dream sequences just now.

The connective tissue to Game of Thrones, the Mothership series, is very strong now as we see at least Daenerys Targaryen's back, the Night's King, and the Three-Eyed Raven in Daemon's vision. But what did you make of the...

It's really Damon's revelation, but I think a lot of the characters in this episode were like, eh, I thought I had a lot of control over this situation, and it turns out I'm just swept up by fate. I think that's a really interesting way to put it. In our notes here, you put story with a capital S, which I really felt, and it made me, of course, think of...

Tyrion and Bran for better or for worse. But I also think it's beyond that we're all part of a story. It's this thing that we've been talking about since Rook's Rest of having your entire worldview shaken. Yeah. Because Wayne and Kristen are sort of overtly doing that in this episode. Kristen talking about like...

I had this sword and this is all I knew and this is all I understood. But Allison says something similar. As he deeply inhales a handkerchief. Yeah, exactly. As he like sniffs. Scent of a woman. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But like I think that like, you know, Rhaenyra when she saw Adam on Seasmoke or Daemon when he has this vision in this episode, I think everyone here is like, I thought I understood the order of the world.

Aemond Targaryen is like, I thought as soon as I claimed Vhagar, I was absolutely immune to any attack and now I'm outnumbered by other dragons. I no longer have that. Aegon's like, Aegon thought I was like, I thought I would have my penis for my entire life, but I don't. You know, so like sausage on a

Like, world views are being rocked all over the place. And so I think that's a really interesting, like, what's not only I'm in a story, but I'm not in the story I thought I was, or I'm not the character that I thought it was. I kind of thought that that really came to light in this Alison and Rhaenyra scene where you get the second meeting with them this season, both of which are not in books. These are show inventions. But this was a scene where Alison comes to Rhaenyra as a person and not a character. And she's kind of like, all right, I was wrong.

If you want, I can basically hand you the keys to the kingdom. Rhaenyra asks for Aegon's head, essentially. And Alicent's like, you can't ask me to do that, but then eventually acquiesces. But, crucially, in this scene, she's like, me and Helena are going to get out of town. And she's like, you should come with us. She pulls a Kristen. She invites Rhaenyra to just flee and escape. And Rhaenyra says once again,

My part is here. Yeah. And so I think to build off what you guys were just talking about and how the different characters are... One of the things I'm most interested in tracking in this episode and now coming out of this episode, you mentioned free will. How do we assess the role of free will in a story where characters are increasingly confronting a prophecy about their fate, but also we as viewers know a certain end point in the future? I think this is going to be a fascinating thing to discuss and parse. Yeah.

Which characters respond to some new perspective with like the Kristen Nihilism I have lost my bearings completely on what my place in the world is to the point where I don't think I have one anymore Who can maybe say like Alicent?

My purpose, for the first time ever, I'm going to ask what I want. I'm going to ask Helena, what do you want? Something that Allison's father never asked her, right? And maybe the thing you want is to escape it all, to not play a part in shaping the realm and in shaping events. To get out of the story. Exactly. And so like a character like Damon, right?

We'll obviously talk about the vision in more detail when we get to that scene, but it's fascinating to me that we talked a lot throughout the season about the characters who confront prophecy in the story, the characters maybe who confront specifically the prince that was promised, the Song of Ice and Fire. For so many of them, it's like this justification for some foul deed. It's inciting, right? It's fueling the fire. For Damon to emerge now as a character, we're learning this, getting this larger perspective in the sense of the wider board,

has a quelling and dampening effect on his impulses is such an interesting counterweight. Which characters think they actually can still shape the future? The future of the realm, the future of their own lives. The list is small coming out of this episode, and so it makes a character like Rhaenyra who still has a sense of like, "My father told me that I was the one. "I am ordained." We talked about this a lot last week.

But to be then a rare person in the story who's like, I can maybe do something that matters and has a bearing on the outcome of our lives is fascinating. So many people leave this episode like, what I do doesn't matter, or hearing that from someone else. Helena flat out says to Amand, you can do the thing you're threatening and it won't make a difference.

that's a very destabilizing place for a lot of characters to find themselves in. So thematically, I find that very rich. Yeah, it seems like... Oh, go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, like, Massaria in Rhaenyra's ear saying the gods are blessing what you're doing, the gods were damned what you're doing is, like, really feeding into that difference in response. It seems like the people who are most susceptible to that kind of way of thinking, Mal, about the idea that they can still control things, they are the ones with dragons.

They are the ones like... It helps. It's like, I have a dragon, so I don't have to be small folk anymore. I have a dragon, so... I can have as much quail as I want. I can have as much quail as I want. You know, we're going to go through this episode scene by scene. Some scenes we'll spend more time on than others. The triarchy scenes. We're going to spend about 45 minutes on this triarchy scene. I think it's only right since obviously the makers of this show thought it was worthy of opening the season finale with it. You

Are reaping what you have shown. I have shown nothing. You sat in this chair. I love the triarchy. And said multiple times that you miss the stepstones, you miss the craft beer, you love the triarchy. No, I want Kristen and Gwyn playing blackjack for four hours. Honestly, same. And then I want a dragon fight. Yeah. Okay, so we open up. We're with Tylan. He's negotiating with the triarchy. We thought they were gone. They're not gone. He's promising them the stepstones. Well, he's like, should I? Which one's just a modest tax?

We fought a whole war over this in season one. That's where they were fighting in season one where Daemon and Caraxes and the crab feeder and all of that. Adjacent to Dragonstone? Adjacent to, like, what's it kind of need? It's a chain of islands that's off of the continent. Basically, it's the Triarchy who are from Essos. If they get the Stepstones and we're playing a game of Risk, they're just that much closer to being able to... Control the shipping lanes, control the trade, control the tax. The point now is these pirates, they want to go legit. They want to go legit.

Well, I mean, we did have a very long Green Council conversation earlier in the season about never trusting the Triarchy, so do they want to go legit, Chris? I don't know. It seems like they want to get into tax collection. I do want to shout out one of the men on the Triarchy's council here has the book-accurate Dario Naharis blue beard and mustache. That was, like, a fun thing, I think. I also really enjoyed Tylan being, like, I was just really sad on a flag and a wine and a bath. Yeah. He was, like...

Wonderful. So, Tylan has briefly offered the throne in this episode. Like, you could use this whole thing. Well, you know, it's the triarchy boast. Like, you're worried the Prince Regent is going to kill you for agreeing to this pact with us that you probably shouldn't be making. Great news. Once you have our armada behind you, you can take the Iron Throne for yourself if you want to. You know? Yeah. And we'll definitely let you have that.

And it won't be an issue at all. What did you think of the, like, Tywin, Tymon, Tyrod? I think that Tyrod was an Easter egg. I didn't get Tywin's name right for, like, the first six times I tried to make out. Yeah, there's your personal connection to getting the name wrong all the time. But, like, was that for George? You know, Tyrod Taylor. Oh, yeah.

Giants QB, now a Jets QB. Double George football action right there. I just want to say that, do you think that Ryan Condal regrets killing the crab feeder in season one? No. Okay, because

Okay, because he could have been... And I don't think anybody but you thinks that. This Lohar character who shows up, emerges, and mud wrestles Ty. The crab feeder could never be Lohar. The crab feeder can't mud wrestle with people because the crab feeder was riddled with greyscale. Oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot he had a couple of recurring issues there. We move on out of Essos. We'll get back to Ty because the show sure did. Aemond and Vhagar...

As just like a guy watching TV? Yeah. I was like, what did he just burn? Sharp point. Yeah. A place. Yeah. But I think I'm supposed to, am I supposed to know what that was necessarily? It's a place in the Crownlands. Okay. And why do you do that? Why do you do that? Well, Aemond and Vhagar burn sharp point because Aemond doesn't know how to, as Alicent has pointed out, you know, the indignities of his youth, doesn't know how to channel his rage and his sense of like some sort of affront. Yeah.

We did hear Sharp Point mentioned in the sixth episode this season when Corliss said to Alan, like, we'll set course for Sharp Point. Lord Bar-Emon wants us to, like, pick up his nephew, teach him how to be a boatswain. But, yeah, like... It's really not that important, though. Let's just be clear. It's not like... Men will do anything to avoid therapy. Yeah, sworn to Dragonstone, a connection to Team Black. He was, like, too afraid to go challenge Rhaenyra after the sewing, rightly. And so, like, here's an easy, vulnerable target. You can just burn a bunch of innocents.

The point is he had a hissy fit or a Nick fit as you introduced me to that phrase earlier today. And just, yeah, burned a bunch of people. It would be amazing if Eamon was just like drowning a camel light. Just like, God, I really need to chill out. Anyway, his brother. I wanted to ask you though, later we see, so Alice Rivers wakes Damon up later. Yeah, just sitting on his mattress. Just sitting on his bed. Yeah.

She's crying. And I was wondering if she was crying because of this. Oh, like she didn't feel a great disturbance of the force kind of thing? Yeah. Voices cried out. It's not like cut to her or anything like that. I just didn't have a good reason why she was crying. And she has this history of like, I care when people are screaming. Here's my thing. I'm highly skeptical of all this.

All people whispering in the ears of leaders. Sure. As it should be. So, Rosaria, I think, is really gassing up Rhaenyra. Larys, we're going to get to in a second right here. And what was the example you just brought up that I just messed up? Alice. Alice. Like, what's her deal, right? So, like, I'm...

I don't know what any of these people's agendas are. They all seem to be having ulterior motives to why they're pumping up the people. It's Game of Thrones, man. It is Game of Thrones. And Larys is playing to win. He's got Aegon here laid up. RIP his cock. God damn it. Dynamite Larys and Aegon scene. This was great. My new favorite duo. Okay, let's talk it out. So good. He's basically saying...

Rhaenyra's got dragons. Aemon's going to kill you. We have to book out of here. We've got to go. I've got a bunch of money in Braavos. That's right. Let's go. You love the Triarchal. You love the Iron Bank. We know these things. That's a high interest savings account. Lyras basically makes the Cersei season seven finale pitch.

Let the monsters kill each other. Like, bide your time and wait. But I think what's so interesting, to your point about, yes, we should mistrust Larys and Miss Aria and Alice and what their ulterior motives are, but when Aegon's like, I'm a monster forever a cripple, I feel like Larys genuinely was like, it genuinely pained him.

to not because he felt bad for Aegon but because he was just like that's you know it's tougher here and I think also it's all good now it's getting over a little bit of the cough this is a wrong point it's live we're doing it live trying to drink a lot of water to fend off the coughing I think you're just excited to talk about this guy's split sausage sausage on a spit my god okay well but I

I think we have to ask about... Continue with your beautiful point. I'm so sorry. Yes, I was definitely making a beautiful point. I think the thing we have to ask about Laris is how much did he know and when did he know it? Which is a question we were asking last week as well. But he had this plan ready to go. Yes. And so, like...

Does he not tell Aemond about the red sewing? The question was, how bad of a spy master is he? Because he was supposed to tell Aemond about Adam. About Adam, or people were like, why did Larys not notice the parade of dragon seeds marching out of King's Landing, or a Linda running all over town in a non-subtle way? And the idea is like, perhaps he did. And he was like, it suits me for Aemond to be on the back foot, for the king to be in my pocket, and...

And when he says, like, he describes Vhagar going to Dragonstone, Aemon being scared by seeing three dragons there and pulling back around. He says, he fled in terror, so I hear. How did Larys know that? I mean, that's the great thing. That's what I'm saying about, like, he's pumping Aegon full of this stuff. Larys wasn't there. Aegon was, Aemon was like...

And rightly, like, I can't win this fight, but I wouldn't describe him as, like, quaking in his boots about it. Right. He was more just like, all right, Vagirl. No, I mean, he's, yeah, I mean, we get to the whole, like, realms delight bit. We are definitely gassing Aegon up in a number of different ways, but I still think that, like, Laerys, I think he has, like, people over, I think he has people all over the place and he's just keeping the information close to his vest. When Ironrod,

was telling Amon about the boats. I was waiting for Amon to be like, why has my master of whisperers not imparted any of this information to me? But yeah, the you're not alone part was definitely...

the classic Larys blend of like genuine, something that felt really sincere there. Like the only point he, he doesn't challenge anything Aegon says there except that, right? Because it's like the gift that he can give Aegon that maybe he felt like no one gave to him. Like I will be by your side. And I thought it was so interesting that in this conversation, that part of it, Larys is basically Tyrion as we're continuing our discussion from a couple, the last couple pods. And then like Aegon is in the Bran family

I'm still processing this new circumstance that I'm in, but also the Jaime, give me a good clean death any day position. And characters like Tyrion and Larys have gotten to, they've built toward the make it your weakness, wear it like armor point. For Aegon, he's in the Bran, I woke up and I'm saying to Rob, I'd rather be dead position. And so all of these characters are- My penis is split like a sausage on the spit. What am I gonna do? That was tough.

I love those comps, and I would add one more, which is when he's like, let's go to Braavos, and everyone will be so excited when you come back. This is what Daenerys' shitty brother Viserys, that's what he believed. He was like, they've been waiting for us. They were gassing him up in Essos his whole life, and they were like, the people in King's Landing weep in the streets. Cannot wait for you to come back. I loved the way, too, that Laerys packaged that idea with they will hail the returning king his father's true heir. He knows to give Aegon the thing that

Yeah. He never had. Yeah. Right? Like, when Otto said, when Aegon said to Otto, like, he made me king, and Otto laughed in his face and said, is that what you think? Right? Or in that, like, harrowing pre-Rook's Rest fight between, or scene between Aegon and Alicent, right? The, like, in the hope that he might be half the king your father was. This was the thing he was always deprived of, like, feeling like he was actually Viserys's chosen heir. And so for Larys to give him

That delusion in the form of belief and affirmation, Laris is such a deft maneuverer. That's very sweet. This is also a guy who's half burned to death whose hog doesn't work anymore, and he's really bummed out about it. And that's the thing I love about this performance is that he doesn't have like a regarding Henry moment where he's like, I'm a good guy now. Actually, I've seen death and like I'm really like maybe I could. I mean the look in his eye. Talk about regarding Henry like.

Fairly regularly. The look in his eye when he says, "Realms Delight," after Larys has gone through the different monikers. Of course, this takes us back to the first episode of the season with Aegon and his bros hanging around the Iron Throne. Should it be Aegon the Magnanimous? No one knows what magnanimous means. Dragoncock, we're going to have to retire that one. Off the table. Right? Dragonheart, Aegon the Generous. And what is the thing that he wants? It's realms delight because that was what the realm gave to Rhaenyra.

Again, the idea of being not only accepted but beloved. Aegon has never felt that, so of course it's what he covets. That's very much a book idea that has been somewhat absent from the show, but I thought it was interesting that they brought back Realm's Delight for Aegon here. The next scene, first of all, I just want to ask really quick, was Realm's Delight your favorite nickname? I like Peacemaker because that's what I think of when I think of Aegon. It's just diplomacy.

Did you have a favorite nickname? If I were him, I would just stick with Dragoncock. Yeah, sure. No one needs to know.

Our little secret. The next scene is just Raynor running around. We'll get back to that. If you're gonna bail on your agreement with Rhaenyra to protect little Aegon and little Viserys. I think it's actually worth the dragon. Diagramming what's happening here. You need to go back. Like no water. This was a scene that's actually not a single granola bar. There's a conversation between her and Jane of Arryn of the Vale. Yeah.

Jane's like, you can stay here if you'd like as my ward, right? Doesn't she offer that or no? No, she doesn't. I don't think so because Reyna's whole job was to make sure the kids were safe. Okay, so she gets outside the door. She waits for the doors to close. The people are walking. They apparently aren't like, hey, Reyna. And she runs off. No one gives a shit about Reyna is the point. It may be a little confusing as it was to me as I was watching this episode. I knew she was looking for a dragon, but I didn't understand the levels of distress she was in because she's obviously like...

If this doesn't work out, I'm actually probably going to die of hunger, right? Yeah, she's out alone in the veil. Her, like, boots are, like, split. We don't know how long. There's a lot of weird timeline language in this episode. Like, you know, we sail in two days' time or all this other stuff like that. Like, a lot of weird timekeeping in this episode. How long was Reyna out there?

Feels like a really long time. Very thirsty, very cold at night. She runs around for most of this episode. Jason Ulf is the next one. This is an incredible scene. I actually LOL'd at this. This is great. Tom Bennett is the king. This is incredible. This is very funny. Do you see this slight character pivot of a guy who really wanted something more for himself but was a little bit full of ale and, you know, like an Ulf at the pub trying to like basically tell stories for pints. Mm-hmm.

He kind of slips into being a dick pretty fast once he gets this...

I mean, this is one of those spaces where I would love two more episodes for this turn to happen. This turn was definitely going to happen for him. This is definitely what he was... You'll hire this guy to be like, I'm really interested in Rhaenyra. But this is what he was poised for. His character type was poised for. But it happened very immediately. Which, you know, a dragon's a heady drug, I guess. The fact that we walk in and he's got his feet on the painted...

table. You keep that face clear for Stannis and Melisandre to fuck on. Show some respect. Some respect. Please. But like his feet are literally sitting on the continent. Yeah. The map. Like that's, you know, it's just wonderful stuff. And Hugh, Hugh Hammer then being sort of cast in this role of like

I'm not like, I'm the good one. I understand etiquette. I'm not like him, you know. Yeah, I've made an appeal to the king. I've made scorpions for the crown. Yeah. The character who definitely had a name, she did it. I just love her so much. You've got like the comedy, the manners, all of that. All,

Ulf being a character previously who was happy to talk about Jace in the pub, right? His connection, then doesn't recognize him, doesn't know who he is. The absolute fucking gall if you're Jace. Not only of the hug, the way he was pushing his arm away was just so funny. But, okay, what did...

the entire emotional pitch that he made to Rhaenyra hinge on. I don't want people to think I'm just like them or that they're just like me. I don't want to do team bastard. And then, oh, literally saying you and I cut from the same cloth talking about their hair. Look at that hair. This is Jace's nightmare. Coming back.

to bear in front of him in real time and it took like a day. But what I love So good. is that Baila's like snapped the fuck out of it. The Baila scene was amazing. But when he says look at that hairstyle because they say what's interesting to me is that Jace has a haircut before this episode is over and it's not like he can get rid of all of his hair but you know we loved the curls but he was looking a lot like his biological his bio dad Harwin Strong. So I feel like he like trimmed the curls up a bit Why doesn't Jace just go Joe Burrow style and Targaryen it up up top? You know what I mean? Nice.

I have one other question for you about Jace. This is actually real armchair therapy or whatever, but do you think that one of the dangers of bringing... He said therapy. I got so excited. One of the dangers of bringing all these lowborn, quote-unquote, people into the palace is the people in the palace are really fucking weird. And this teenager being third in command is kind of odd to people who are like...

I work for a living and you know, like I had to like scrounge for food. Now I get in here and find out the reason all of this is happening is because the brother and sister who are married have like a kid who's not their kid. And no, honestly, my honest answer is you think that the people who are small folk are like these guys haven't all figured out. No.

not necessarily have it all figured out, but I just think they're used to it. Like, you know, Jaehaerys was a teen when he took over, right? Like, I think this is the way of life in Westeros that you have boy kings and precocious princes and I think for a character like Ulf, just being in the presence of somebody famous is the only thing that matters. I don't think he's like...

you seem quite young and like... Yeah. What's going on? You're just like, "My bro, my dude, Jace, my guy!" Let's go to Corlys and Rhaenyra at the docks. Okay. Okay, so we get Rhaenyra's common refrain of using the dragons as deterrents. Yes. That the dragons are just there to scare everybody into giving her her birthright. I thought it was very important, even though this has now been hammered home by her all season long,

Getting this one last utterance of this stuff before we get to the end of the episode where she's just like, safety's off. Totally. I thought it was awesome. I also loved, you know, to that idea of Corlys and his shifting worldview, the idea that he's renamed his ship, his name for him, named it for Rhaenys, but also just sort of like,

In terms of what story am I in or what character am I in the story, he was the main character of his own story. The seas, all this sort of stuff like that. I had all these. The whole night I might get a prequel show, blah, blah. And he's like, that was the old me. The new Corliss is way different. Wait till I talk to Alan. It's going to be great. I liked.

too because like Bela kind of voiced that idea to him right Bela was ready to give Jace the stop pouting you should already have given it to Corlys in the fifth episode and like when Bela said I wonder if any of them knew it was all for her was tapping into this like deeply personal private thing and for Corlys to put that then at the fore instead of the obsession with legacy and kind of move that back or

think of what is your legacy maybe in a different way. It's about the people you love. It's about the people around you. I thought it was very effective. I also thought it was interesting that he was like, in essence, giving Rhaenyra the Olenna to Dany. Like, you're a dragon. Be a dragon. Be a dragon. Yeah, right. Speech, you know, doing the dragon math, telling her not to wait. It's been fascinating to track across the season, like the idea of speed and haste and how many different characters have really been pressing. The

The urgency of the moment and then when other characters are hitting pause to think about the big picture and the time that they have. I agree with you, Chris, that it felt super important because we were so alarmed, right? This slaughter, this ritual sacrifice, we talked about that term that Condal used, that we watched last week. And so for Rhaenyra to come out of that...

will build toward like the dragon seed dinner and the like we need to go to old town we need to go to land of support here are all the armies that we need to annihilate we build toward that in fairly like short order here but it felt crucial to have one more moment especially before the alicent and renear scene where like their positions are inverted renear is the one on the receiving end of like are we sure it's too late for peace and we needed to hear one more time like how

Are we sure that we can't just get the greens to hand this over and avoid war? Corlys also does some very valuable... That dragon math that we are constantly doing. He's like, dream fire. Dream fire. She exists. Helena has a dragon. Guess you guys didn't know about that, but it's true. As I've told you two that I've started getting served Thrones clips a lot on YouTube. Yeah. And I...

I think presciently got served two that were very, really useful for this episode. I can't remember where, I think it's in seven, season seven.

First it's Dany's gonna burn Rickon and what is the other guy on the battlefield? And they're like, I have a queen already. And Tyrion's like, all you have to do is show them that you might burn them. You know, like he's trying to be like, you just have to use the threat of dragons. And she's like, basically like, no, these guys are going down. And then later, like I think around the time when the wights show up or when they show Cersei like the White Walker or whatever, like,

She's talking about her bringing dragons back into the world as this impossible, almost godly act. And you can see this arc of like, okay, I understand. I have one hand tied behind my back even though I have a dragon because I can't go too far with this. To, I'm a god. You know what I mean? And that happens to Rhaenyra within one episode here in some ways. You get to the end of this episode and she's like,

It turns out I've run out of diplomacy. And in some ways, you've got to wonder whether as a character it's because she's just like bored. You know what I mean? Like she's kind of trapped in this castle. She's not allowed to expose herself because she would then ruin the entire claim on the crown.

Is that you projecting because you were bored when Rhaenyra was just stuck in the castle and not burning people to dragons? What I think I'm interested in is the speed in which characters develop on this show despite the show itself narrative-wise moving slowly. We were talking on the episode seven, House of Ardip, going back to the fourth episode, to the eve of Rook's Dress, and how...

how Rhaenyra was finally sharing Aegon's dream with Jace and how she was using that language then, ordained, like I'm the chosen one, right? It has been there. So it was more like reaching the fever pitch. But I think, not to jump ahead, but the other thing, in addition to what she voices to Corlys here that felt really crucial to me in this episode is this balance, this counterbalance in what we're seeing with Rhaenyra, was saying to Mysaria,

I don't think this is what my father would have wanted. Yeah. Right? Because we talked about that a lot last week too. Like, perhaps you're not current on the four hours of subsequent discussion of the episode we did. Listen, I'm going to give you so much credit. You were watching your Game of Thrones YouTube clips and I love that about you. But like, we were talking

This is like Liverpool highlights, human-thrones clips. You'll catch up. The pod is there waiting for you. Did Rhaenyra forget? We talk a lot about what Rhaenyra has inherited from Viserys, but have they forgotten that core series opening note, like the idea that we control dragons is an illusion. They're a power men never should have trifled with. It brought Valyria its doom. If we don't mind the histories, it will do the same to us.

The thing that I love about Mallory is she will say that every single episode so that we don't forget. But I think if you're Rhaenyra and Vermithor came when you beckoned and didn't eat you or roast you, then you're like, my dad said what? Or maybe my dad was wrong. Let's be honest. Rhaenyra didn't walk out of the red sewing traumatized at the loss of life. No. She was like, clutch. We got a couple more dragons. Absolutely.

Let's keep moving and let's talk about Dame, who's at Harrenhal still. Yep. But this time, actually, GTD is getting things done. Yeah. Broom arrives, a rich donor. Oh, you're skipping the conversation between Damon and Piper about the pigs for Caraxes? That was great. Just a great last one. Honestly great. Damon making his way

his way through the hallway like let me check your sword and then he prefers I like how Damon has essentially been robo-tripping the entire time he's been here and then all of a sudden is like the expert on everything he's like good sword move that water over there I'm totally on it but is there any reason like do we need to pause on pork the other way no I just thought it was a great little moment we get a rich donor who wants to replace his candidate oh yeah okay yeah

Yeah. Say like Brat Prince Summer. Yeah, Brat Prince Summer. I don't know. I just thought it was interesting. Uh...

You get the gender piece, of course. We need a strong man leader here. Yeah, we need a king. Alfred's basically repeating what he said directly to Rhaenyra. There's just like a few instances in this. Yeah. No, that was Keltigar. Maybe Broome should get slapped. He's very tall, though. Matt Smith is a tall man, and Broome was looming over Daemon. The moment in the courtyard where he's like, what's that? And then Daemon says, this place will have you barking at the moon. Great stuff. I did think some of the language here was...

And elsewhere in this episode, it was just a little too on the nose. There just wasn't a ton of subtlety here. But I guess someone like Broom is not someone we would ever accuse of subtlety. But I don't know. There was just a few moments. They don't beat around the bush. Yeah. And Simon Strong lurking in the shadows. Kristen especially. It's like, tell me how you really feel. I don't know if we were supposed to watch this scene and think the way that Simon does, oh, Damon's definitely going to sign up for...

Right. For one of them. Yeah. Like, if it's supposed to be a big twist at the end that Damon is like, JK, I'm not going to. Right. Although, if he doesn't have that vision, I don't know what we're talking about. Well, yeah.

I think that's a valid, I mean, I think he has the season of ghost therapy at Harrenhal to reach his grand conclusion. But obviously, yes, this sequence with Alfred happens before that final bit of like, I see that I am not, in fact, as Alice said, the player, I am a piece, right? And I understand what kind of piece I am now. I did think it was interesting, though, that, first of all, like, we talk about the magic, what is happening, the supernatural element at Harrenhal. So just for Damon to take him there.

for Damon who has had this experience and resisted it so actively until he says to Alice later,

I'm not inclined to scoff at this anymore, actually. He made the choice of all the places in this giant, massive abode he could have taken him to go right in front of the werewood tree. It shows us that I think he has this connection now to the magic of the place. So I liked that part of it. The tree whispering traitor at Alford was just fantastic. We talk about the whispers of the tree. We've talked about Ocean Brand. Alice has talked about this with Damon. Do you feel like that was Roger R. Martin himself since he's the face of that werewood tree? Maybe. Traitor! What do you think the alternative settings for this conversation could have been?

though? Because you think he could have been like, hey, I hear a bunch of pigs are arriving. I was going to say, the pigsty. That's a amazing place to take the phone. I've seen British gangster films. You don't want to go to the pigsty with Damon Targaryen. I liked how proud Damon looked, too, when Alfred arrived. Just the way he said, interesting, and he knows Rhaenyra's compelled to check up on him. And also he's like, what are you making my giant fucking army? He's got a little bit of swagger before he has to kneel. And this is something that...

Emma Darcy was saying in interviews last week this idea that Damon and Rhaenyra are not able to be horny for each other when they are losing. It is only when they are winning that they can share victory for each other and they love to get horny for victory, but they cannot share sadness for each other. In the times between, gotta dream about eating out your own mom. Yeah, you know? And so this idea... Horny for victory, I like it. So like...

When we see Rhaenyra at the end of last week's episode and she's like, I just killed 43 people, but I got two big dragons. But this is why all of a sudden there's like dozens of babies in Philadelphia named Chase Huntley. You know what I mean? Because people love to love when things are going right. So I think when we see, I mean, not to skip ahead, when we see Rhaenyra and Daemon interact at the end of this episode, we talked about something that Condal said. I've been thinking about all season this idea that this season is just like a referendum on their marriage. Right.

When we meet them and they're low at the beginning of the season, they cannot talk to each other. And then we meet them here and Damon's like, I got a huge army. And Nira's like, that's cool. I got three new dragon riders for us. And they're practically renewing their vows at the end. A little lean in, a little almost head nuzzle. Yes. Can't wait to talk about that. Aemon and Jasper, not a ton here. Aemon hates...

Building on let's close all the gates and lock them in by saying let's stop the only food supply who needs fish. Josh is like they literally only have fish. No more boats. That's all they have left. Like Eamon's trauma I guess with the eye and everything. Yeah. Like he's really taking it out on everybody. Isn't that what Allison said? Yeah. The indignities of

Do you know? He's a dick. Anything else about the Eamon and Jasper scene, though? No, let's talk about Eamon and Allison and Helena, though. Oh, boy. This is ruled. Chris, are you familiar with the pretty sizable contingent of Eamon-Helena shippers out in the readership? Because this was a tough episode for us. Well, us? Us?

This is brand new information to me. Us, yeah. Who is this? Her and some random something. It's not me. Halaymond is the name of the ship. Was it tough? Or when he was like, come with me to Harrenhal, did you feel your, I guess, Halaymond shipper heart pitter-patter a little bit? Her rejection. I mean, obviously we have like then the second scene with just the two of them alone. But my goodness. Brutal.

Yeah. So you're not into the ship? It didn't occur to me. Okay. Yeah. Well, I don't believe that given how much time you spend thinking about incest in Game of Thrones. No, I guess I was just more taken aback by the fact that Helena was like, I'm going to bed and it's clearly broad daylight outside. She was like, I was just getting ready for bed. Do they go to bed like super early because there's no electricity? I bet she does. She's like, my crickets are dead. Yeah. Yeah.

Tough beat for Jace. And Aemon basically has the same stump speech. She's like, they've defiled our birthright. Made commoners into dragon lords. That's not ideal. Not ideal for Jace there. When Helena says to Alicent, I was happier before I was queen. Heartbreaking. And Alicent really was like,

Same. Hard same. By the end of this episode, I mean, we'll talk about it a little bit more when we get there, but she's basically in season one, episode one, Allison cosplay. But it was interesting because Helena... Showing the fingernails. When Allison's like, let's get out of here, Helena kind of blanks her because...

she doesn't know anything different than what she's living right now. But is it also possibly, and again, I don't know this because I don't understand the full scope of Helena's, you know, what she can see and what she can't. Sensitivity, yeah. But like, is it just because she can't, she literally can't see herself anywhere else? You know what I mean? Right, because she's like, what's the point? Again, I have some interesting questions about like,

the show's relationship to free will inside of a story where like visions and a sense of the future and this presentation of like predestination is so central. But I did think from Allison's perspective, it was meaningful for her to ask her kid, like, do you want to get out of here? Like, would that make you happier? Because again, that's not a thing that her family ever gave to her. Allison's just trying to find one person who will go to Cabo. Seriously. Just one. Just one. Just for records. Like, actually, I can't go with you this time.

I've got other things going on. I have other entrails to smush that cannot be bothered. I also thought it was striking because Helena's like, "I do not wish to fight. I won't burn anyone." You know, you're talking and observing rightly many times, like, what does it mean to have this power now? And so to give us a character who's like, "I have bonded with the dragon. I am a rider.

Not just any dragon. I ride fucking Dreamfire. Who is big time, like, five-star recruit? What's going on? Oh, yeah. I mean, so we don't really have time. We'll talk about this more in House of R. We don't have a ton of time now. I know we're running long already. But Dreamfire was Raina, another Raina. Chris, they do all have the same names. Another Raina, Raina Targaryen's dragon, and was like, because of where Raina traveled, like, all across the realm. Oh, didn't Dreamfire fly?

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Out of the wall, I get scared? Silver wing. That's silver wing. All right. But you tried. You tried. We can go more than dragons. You tried, man. I can't wait any longer. I need to get to my guys. Gwen and Kristen time. Another dynamite scene with these guys. It was. My fucking guys. Yeah. Fantastic. Desire for women has brought me grief after grief. I LOL'd. Great stuff. Just an awesome scene. Completely over the top and ridiculous. I don't know why he's just...

full-on sniffing the queen's handkerchief in front of the queen's brother. This is like the titty cloth. Like, she pulled this out, right? Remember when she gave it to him in the courtyard? Like, you can't do this in plain view of everyone, but also if you're Gawain, you can't then put this. Is that this earlier before the camera started rolling and I was like, is she going to say it again? Is the titty cloth like a thing on Etsy or are you just... I don't know. We have our computers. Let's find out.

find out. You find out. But like if you're Gawain, you also can't put your sword to the Lord Commander and say you've been fucking the Queen. You can't do that with like all the soldiers are behind them like watching and listening. Like we always talk about this like guys, go to a private little grove of trees and have this exchange out of earshot of everyone. But like Kristen the poet, Kristen the nihilist, this was incredible. True honor is a mist that melts in the morning, which is similar to something that Allison said. But I just think that like

His, like, they look like strong hands, don't they? Like, never-ending story. Rock-biter moment where he's just sort of like, here's my sword. I always thought it meant something. This is all I understood. But we've heard him say that before. My cloak, it's all I have, you know. My name, it's all I have. Putting a little extra seasoning on this one, but...

the first thing I thought of while this guy is kicking his game about, like, we're just ashes, yada, yada, is this, like, they're Siegfried Sassoon-ing this dude. Like, he's, like, this warrior poet who's seen incredible trauma. Siegfried Sassoon was, like, a World War I soldier who wrote very beautifully about, like, his experiences, and then they made him, you know, Pat Barker wrote a novel about him, Regeneration. But that was actually what I was thinking of, because I was like, this guy who's not betraying this level of, uh,

i don't know poignant introspection before he saw all his guys get lit up and now he's kind of like whatever we're doing doesn't really matter because the dragons are going to decide this and here's wait can i have the dragons dancing men are like that's my camera i'm going to look at it i'm sorry i was wrong massaria and kristen are interesting characters there you go and they really brought us back around

No. I just can't believe how invested I am in Kristen. I know. It's unbelievable. It's like what the show does and what a throne story does at its best is like wrap you up in, I mean, we have many examples of redemption arcs. I don't know if that's what we're getting here, but like, okay, when Kristen used to like, because Gawain is like, don't you give a shit about your oath? And Kristen's like, it's literally all I think about and all I talk about and all I've talked about on the show to this point. You know, in the past,

For Kristen, this idea of like the fidelity, the honor, our response to that was like, why do you think you get to decide and then why do you get to be such a hypocrite? And now seeing his worldview turned on its ass where he thinks I have absolutely no ability to make an impact on the world I helped to usher in.

was so, like, I thought more disturbing than the place we had previously found him in because that hopelessness, that sense of utter defeat, like, he didn't find enlightenment. He's just got Nyla. On the other end. He just found a complete lack. Well, he's just marching towards his death, whereas Alicent, who has a very similar... The guy will be a kind of relief. Don't you think? A little too ironic, yeah. Like...

Allison has a very similar revelation. This world I helped build, I am completely locked out of any ability to shape it. Yes. Except she's like, girl strip, Cabo, let's go. And Kristen's like, die anyway, I guess. Yeah. In the chat, Will Duncan said, is Kristen redeemable after everything they did? I actually think that he's redeemable as a character through his candor. Like, I just think like the sort of how, you know, they're making him into this

for ideas about marching into certain oblivion, which I think lots of soldiers must feel. And that's an interesting thing to play around with. I love that point. And I think that when people would ask me whenever I would rail about how much I hated Chris and Cole, why are you invested in Damon Targaryen and you hate Chris and Cole? And I would often say self-awareness. He lacks any self-awareness. And so it just irritates me the way that he...

you know, to paraphrase Rhaenyra Laird in this episode, sort of like cloaks himself in his self-righteousness. And that bothered me so much. Daemon at least knew he was a piece of shit. You know what I mean? Like when he smirks about a murder that he did, he knows he did that murder. Whereas Kristen's like, I am the only thing that is on Earth that is left on this Earth. And now that all of that has crumbled around him, he's fascinating to me. Totally agree. Wow. I bought it. I bought the dip and it paid off. Lexine was Lohar anti-mud wrestling.

It was. Indeed it was. I'll leave that for House of R. You guys can go deep on that one. That was fine, I guess. We'll come back to them in two seconds. I don't know why this was in the finale. Jace and Jace the Powder and Bela, just him going, I'm reading. I'm reading. This is just an amazing scene. Absolutely iconic, I'm sorry.

This is so good. That he's never read in his life. How dare you? No, maybe he did. But, like, he wasn't reading then. He was just pouting, you know? Bela's like, I'm so tired of holding the hand of every single pouting person around here. I thought that Bela saying, that does not make me common, or you, was, like, one of the moments of the episode. And I think that, like, again, it's about balancing these ideas and holding multiple things in our head at once because Jace's...

while he did not maybe voice it to Rhaenyra in the most productive fashion, right? And while a lot of that... That's a soft pedal. That's a soft pedal of what he did. While the greeting that he gives to Ulfenhue is not the most despicable one, he was right when he said, just going to chip away at this idea of Targaryen exceptionalism if we democratize dragon riding and let just like any old, any old...

the old bastard, claim a dragon. But I think Bela offering, again, like a counterweight, this is like an episode of counterweights, was crucial because it's like, you don't have to feel diminished. People have made Jace feel that way his entire life. That is true. But at the end of the day, it's up to him whether he wants to go stand by Rhaenyra's side, go to the dinner with the dragon. We can do a little bit of Lohar in Thailand having a seafood tower. I only brought...

mention it because Lohar's like... You also skipped Raina freezing in the veil. We go from Raina freezing in the veil into Tylan singing. Honestly, I've just not even written that down. Lohar and Tylan, they're having seafood. They talk about going to the gullet on the morrow. On the morrow. On the morrow. That's so soon. Here's my main critique of this entire episode.

Tyland Lannister sings The Captain's Daughter, a song, a new song to A Song of Ice and Fire canon. But where are the days of Game of Thrones when we would get like a banger, rock version of this? Where's the chapel roan, The Captain's Daughter, to close out this episode? I don't know. But Lohar does have the special request to Tyland, which is, will you have sex with my wives? Yes.

It's still funny. It's still funny. You're the best. That's me. Rhaenyra and the dragon riders. Yes. What a dinner. Really something. Ulf fucking loves quail. He really does. He loves eating small birds. More wine here, more of those little birds. He's been like eating broth and the occasional piece of fish. And it was a thin broth, Chris. It was a very thin broth. As you will recall. As you will recall. My guy needs iron. We're talking about dragon training camp here, basically. Rhaenyra lets everybody know they need to be...

up on their verbiage. Yeah, in two days. The playbook needs to be off. It's just all committed to memory. I hope they've got the wristbands with all the plays right there because that is just not enough time, Chris. It's just simply not enough time. This scene is very useful. We've talked about some of the stuff I'm

noted here more or less like the turn Ulf makes from like lovable braggart to disruptive force within the palace. Continuing to talk while the queen has stood up to make a toast is one of the most astonishing things we have witnessed in the history of the show. Best make me a knight then. I mean the problem is the way I feel conflicted about this is that I do not believe in the monarchy.

So like on the one hand, I'm like, yeah, I mean, he's got a dragon as much as they do. But at the other hand, it's like maybe just kill him and try and find another one. Maybe this isn't the guy. I did enjoy him saying like Silverwing's a goer. And then I really loved Adam being like, we'll have time enough to see which of us is a coward. A lot of tension at that table. Yes. A lot of tension. Also the little look.

on Jace's face when Mace Redard comes in with the message from Simon and Jace is like, first he's ready to listen, right? No, you're not invited to listen. And then when Rhaenyra summons Adam and Jace is like...

Do you think that... I have questions about why she took Adam. Yeah, do you think she actually is like, I mean, obviously she's trying to keep Jace safe still, but why not take Bayla? Bayla, on my answer. Does she want Bayla there to keep an eye on Jace? It's hard to... With the seeds. I mean, I think that there is something about Adam's introduction to Rhaenyra after she's... Look, that's the first, that's the only guy who's kind of given her unconditional support and loyalty in a long time. He was really trying. Ulf is dragging down his reputation. Maybe they just haven't had any

Rhaenyra even says to Corlys, like, oh, you can give me, like, a good report on Adam, right? And then he does, right? She's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that guy. Yeah, he's fine. But, like, Ser Lorien having to reach for his fucking sword? The Kingsguard reaching for his sword because Ulf was being... What Ulf is doing? But, yeah, I have questions about why Adam and Seasmoke went to Harrenhal. They do go to Harrenhal because she gets a message from Harrenhal and she flies out. Before she gets there, Daemon has another vision.

As, you know, he's walking with Alice, he's like, do you want to see what all of these dream sequences were really about? But before we get to the dream, let's just let Chris talk about this for a second. Did you see the person clip-clopping with antlers on their head behind the tree? Yeah.

No. Yeah. There's a green man. Like brief. A green man. Of the Isle of Faces. So the. So it's huge. Yeah. This is huge. So it happened really. It's like blink and you'll miss it. So I'm not. I'm not upset that you missed it. I totally missed this. Yeah. But there's like before. Right before he gets the tree. And I'm sure Damon's like I've seen so much at this point. I can't even. You hear clip clop. And you see a guy who's like I guess since he's clipping and clopping is sort of Seder like. But he's got these antlers. And on in.

the God's Eye, which is the lake that's right there, there's an island in the middle called the Isle of Faces. Rhaenyra and Adam fly over it. You see it. That humans cannot get to. People cannot get to this island. And the people on the island, the guardians...

are the Green Men. And what I love about the fact that we see this group, I mean, this is huge, because we've never been there. We don't go there in the books. It's like, you can't get to it. It's like old Nan telling Bran stories, et cetera, et cetera. It's like, okay. No one visits the Isle of Faces. That's where the Green Men live. What I love about Bran, so Bran...

Here's these stories from old Nan in the original books. And every time he's going somewhere and someone mentions someone, he's like, do they have antlers? If they had antlers, that was a green man and that's so sick, man. So anyway, it's a huge deal. We saw a green man. So we see a green man. Add that to my notes. Alice visits Damon, takes him to the godswood, and he touches the weirwood tree. He has a vision and I'm like, oh God, who's he going to have sex with now? Uh-uh.

He gets the three-eyed raven. He sees some dead dragons. He doesn't just get the three-eyed raven. He gets fucking Brendan Rivers' blood raven. But that's the three-eyed raven that we've seen. Yeah, but like the birthmark with Chris? Two eyeballs still.

We've now seen three actors play that character. It's Max von Sydow. It's Max von Sydow or the elderly bearded man who was in the Visions before they cast Max von Sydow. He also sees some dead dragons and soldiers. We don't know what war that's from. Could be any number of them, I guess. Valerie and I have some house of art theories that we'll talk about. And Daenerys birthing her dragons. She's got them on her shoulders and stuff. Rhaenyra on the throne. White Walker and the Army of the Dead.

And then I thought kind of the most cruched part of this is Helena is in the vision. Red comet? And also seems to know that she's in the vision. This is wild. Not only that, but they got the set from Stranger Things when Eleven goes into the void space. I thought that was pretty cool. It really does open up a Pandora's box of who

How does Helena know Alice? Is there a sort of realm or plane of existence that Helena accesses where she pops up in people's dreams? I'm excited to see her potentially dreamwalk. Like,

This is the thing about Helena is that this is a huge show invention. That Helena is like a dreamer in the first place. That she sees things and has visions. It's a huge expansion of the character. And it's one that George R. R. Martin has said, actually they improved on my Helena. Like often George R. R. Martin is like, don't change a thing. Don't like it when you do that. Causes a ripple effect. But he's like, the shit that they did with Helena is really cool. That's awesome. Yeah, that she's doing all this. Yeah.

Yes, on the one hand, it opens up a lot of really cool possibilities, but to your point in terms of like...

A monkey's pot. Like, narratively, this could be sticky. But I think it works really well here. Maybe a little less so when she's talking to Eamon a little after. But her talking to Damon here I found really effective. I thought Daenerys – I didn't mind Daenerys being here. I thought that was cool. I thought it was a cool way to, like, we're not getting Emilia Clarke, but we all know – Yeah, it's like she was like, what's up, Damon? I can see you. Yeah. Right. We all know who that is.

The White Walker stuff, I was like a little less, you know. Well, you kind of need it for him to truly be like, I get it. Now I know why you're the queen. Zombies. So he's basically seeing, let me actually save that question. Because I want to ask if that's, I basically want to know if that's Agen's dream, Agen's dream, right, of the Song of Ice and Fire. Yep. Or something's different than that, but gives him the same cumulative effect that

It has when Viserys passes the story on and Rhaenyra... I would say it's the latter. I mean, to just answer your question, even though you said you might save it. I would say it's the latter just because of Rhaenyra being part of it and also him being part of it. Him walking through it and falling into the water. It's like a more contextual to his life framing of the same endgame. Right?

That there's something else we have to fight. The Song of Ice and Fire is there. It's the White Walkers. It's the rebirth of the dragons. That part of the dream is there. But yeah, this is framed around his circumstance and his life so that Helena can say it's all a story. You're but one part in it. You know your part. You know what you must do. And that he can then say... More important than story? What, as Darian once asked, is more important than story? But I'm curious to ask you both what you...

what you, like how you are feeling about these, because obviously the series opens with this, right? This number of years until Daenerys Targaryen, we get the dream, we're like, okay, show invention. We know how that all goes. We know how Game of Thrones ends. Like,

When you see stuff like this, when you hear the vision cue and the score kick in, are you like, "Let's fucking go? These are the connections and these bits of connective tissue that make this all feel like more of--" There's a reason they went with a tapestry for the opening credits now of the series, right? This idea that we are stitched into this great story.

Are those things that like those connections that you're they felt inevitable as soon as they introduced the idea of Agon's Dream certainly but like do you want more of them? Do you want to really limit them? And then to that question of free will like how are you guys both feeling about that? Because on the one hand we have like again we talked about in the opening all the different relationships to that.

Are you feeling that this is a rich and thematically potent way for us to look at what the impact on the characters is when they think they know the end point? Something we love. What does it do to a character if they hear a prophecy? Or are you feeling like if we pan back to us as viewers and also the show that they're making where they're like,

This is a story and this is this one part. The Dance of the Dragons, House of the Dragon is one part in a story and you know a crucial part of it. And so we can't forget that. And does that make this feel more hemmed in? For me, it's a lot of what you want out of franchise, maybe fantasy-leaning IP storytelling. And I would rather have a world where there is not always going to be a throw the ring in Mount Doom or...

or the White Walkers get defeated, or... Frankly, how dare he? No, I mean, like, I don't want to move past... I want to be able to move past points, you know what I mean? Like, I want them... Yeah, you don't want to be in prequel land. Well, I...

I think the best version of a prequel that we've seen in recent years in television is Better Call Saul. And Better Call Saul, one of the things I love Better Call Saul as a Breaking Bad prequel is when you watch this character of Saul do this, that, or the other thing, or Jimmy if you prefer, you have the tragedy of Breaking Bad looming over it. And so to your point,

Mal, I feel like I've always felt the tragedy of Game of Thrones, which is that there will be a world where there are no dragons. I kind of have to say, though, I do like it more when it's about flawed people than it is about people with no control. Like, that Jaime shoved Bran out because fate determined Bran needed to have this great injury. This is my... I almost like the idea that there are no dragons in the show, which is kind of what Game of Thrones is more about.

I agree with both of you, which is why this is such an interesting question to me. And I think it's too soon to ultimately answer. We're using different examples, I think. But I just, I think that like, um...

I don't know. I don't think I believe in A Song of Ice and Fire or this world as a deterministic world. Right. I think like... We're almost using House of the Dragon ideas about Game of Thrones. Exactly. And that's why I'm interested to see how they navigate that now that these ideas have been introduced because thinking about where we know this is heading and the long, spanning, swirling history of the Targaryen dynasty and the loss of magic and the rebirth of magic, etc. It's so...

thrilling to have this front row seat for all of the characters along the way who did actually, despite whatever fate or destiny might say, did have a bearing on how we got there. You guys have been covering these shows for a really long time. Go ahead. When Helena says it wouldn't change anything...

To Amon. Yeah. That makes me nervous. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say. I really did not like that Helena-Amon interaction. We had a question on a scale of 1 to 10. How much did Joe and Mal freak out over Helena and Amon's convo? I don't think they freaked out the way you think that they freaked out. I did find it very emotional to see...

Aemond in this completely broken space because in the book this idea is like Septon Eustace tells us that the Kinslayer, which is what everyone's calling Aemond, was determined that this should be his victory alone. He had no wish to share the glory with his brothers nor any other man. And it's like presented in the histories as he wants to stand on his own, he wants to do it on his own, he wants all the credit. And to see like the truth of it, which is so much more heartbreaking, nobody would stand with him. Like that part of it was, I thought,

quite sad and quite affecting. I mean, but no one will stand with him. But again, that was of his own making because he sent everyone away in the last couple episodes. And then he was like, oh no, I can't do this alone. And then it's too late, as it is with all these other things. I think this idea of it's too late hooks nicely into all this because we're going to get that, of course, with Rhaenyra and Alicent. And Sin begets Sin. It's too late. It's too late.

But I don't think that's the same to me as it's inevitable, which I agree with you is sort of what it sounds like when Helena and Eamon have this discussion. And I didn't like this. Yeah. That makes me a little nervous. I think that there's an element of watching these shows and maybe reading the books because they're not complete that really – No, they're not. Yeah.

It really plays to the predictive side of reading or participating in fandom, where you're like, I want to say, these are all the signs that suggest this is going to happen. When you have characters in the story itself being like, this is going to happen, it's a little bit different. Do you know what I mean? Because you don't want it to be like,

I kind of want that to happen naturally, not because Lena called it in advance. Well, I think the end of Game of Thrones, the last few seasons were so interesting in terms of like a fandom phenomenon because we had this book knowledge that could help us.

But we didn't know genuinely where the story was going because George hadn't finished it and Weiss and Benioff were inventing some things at the same time. And so the speculative fervor around Game of Thrones, we're never going to have something like that for Fire and Blood for House of the Dragon because Fire and Blood is already written –

And we also know where things are landing. Mushroom's version is the version, you know? Exactly. There will be these things here and there that are a little different than how they were. So it's more like nuance and less like, is that Syria Farrell in the background? You know, like all that sort of stuff. Oh man, I love the Syria theory. Let's do Rhaenyra and Daemon. Woo!

This is one of the two and the other is awesome. So good. A lot of stuff happens in this episode with language. I find that it's quite obvious that Ulf, for instance, speaks differently than the Highborn people and I thought... No. No? Not really? No, yes he does, but I was just telling Mallory I will not be doing any cockney. I'm targeting him because I'm

I'm waiting for your impression. Cockney war crimes. No, no. No, I will not be offending all of you. It's a little bit different because they speak high Valerian to each other. Yeah. But that's their intimacy language. Yes. And I thought that was cool. This was one of the better scenes of the series probably. Yes. And I would say anything. I think you could have. So good to have them back.

I think you could have ended the episode on this. This was like, if this had been the last scene of the episode. And then you get the montage? I love the montage. Sorry. You love the montage? The montage is like, see you in two years when we move four feet ahead. And the montage will sustain me for those two years. This is essentially like the West Side Story like quintet. I don't have any major comment on this scene other than I thought Emma was incredible. Like,

When she needs to change what she's saying so that all the soldiers can hear. Like when she's like, "And to whom are you sworn?" Exactly. Versus like whispering to him versus talking to him in High Valyrian. It's really cool. Nobody bending the knee when Rhaenyra walks into that room until Daemon does.

The threat, the genuine and sincere threat that you feel to Rhaenyra's chances in that moment was like... But also, Syrax perched above. And even that didn't make them kneel. Even that didn't make them kneel. I just think... I think this was such an excellent scene. There were like nine things going on at all times. To your point, the language used here was almost, I meant to serve you until death or the end of our story. Essentially like a wedding vow. Like, you know, they're just like...

you know, yeah, redoing their vows in front of this group of Riverlanders. And where are they doing it? They're doing it in the room again where Viserys was chosen at the Great Council. Like, where the decision that set all of this into motion was made. There is no more fitting place. Now, I would argue, like, maybe not even in front of the Iron Throne for this conversation between them to unfold. And, like, that, I love that moment so much when Rhaerys, like, you sound like

Like my dad, because as we've talked about a lot, Daemon's response to Rhaenyra bringing up the prophecy in the season one finale was like, "My brother was a slave to his omens and portents. Like dreams didn't make us kings, dragons did." And now we see not only this new connection to Rhaenyra, but to Viserys. And he actually has not just clarity and cohesion now with Rhaenyra,

but something that she doesn't. She has inherited this story, but he has seen it directly. And so that is just a fascinating dynamic too. He got strangers.

He doesn't have to watch the leaks. He knows what he's doing. No, and I love that, like, Rhaenyra, this is exactly what Rhaenyra asked for at the beginning of the season that he could not give her. Yeah. Right? Do you accept me as your queen and ruler? And, like, we're here to do it in front of all those people. Incredible. And, like, we said a little earlier in the season that we were a little uncomfortable with this idea of Daemon...

having like ideas of taking the throne for himself and stuff like that and we were suspicious that it was the middle arc of something that would end on something like this. I still don't think they needed to go quite as hard as they did early this season but this was extremely satisfying. I loved too the like the pulling of the hand you know and that threat from Rhaenyra like don't pull this again right? And he's like I couldn't

He's like, I tried. I tried. And that felt like a real Matt Smith acting decision for him to play it as a joke. Yeah. You know what I mean? I just thought it was so good. Also, just one quick thing before we roll on from Harrenhal. Before, when we watch Cyrax, this is just a thing they do sometimes that is really fun. When Cyrax and Seasmoker are flying over the God's Eye, past the camera, the camera shakes. And that's just like a digital, like these dragons are fucking...

powerful thing that they do is so cool. We're running a little long, so I'm just going to condense some stuff here. We had two scenes. Mallory has like two more bottles of water, so we could be here. She's trying to avoid another. At a certain point, she will need to pee in the episode one. But Alan and Corliss are the docs together. Yeah. It felt like a little bit of a letdown scene after the highs of

of Rhaenyra and Daemon when it first began. Because I was like, oh, yet another scene of these two guys not being able to express themselves and being like, yes, I will go get your boat ready. And then actually it turns into a performance review of like, hey, you're guys, they could use a little bit more relatable content. And Alan's like, fuck you, man. And they have this huge explosion on the dock in terms of

of Valerian explosions, yeah. And I thought it was a cool scene. It's another scene where small folk and nobles clash in this episode. You know, like you have like these moments where like these lower born people are like, you know what, man?

Honestly enough, you know? And I thought you kind of get that a little bit with Kristen and Gwaine. You certainly get it with Ulf and everybody. And you get it here with Alan, who's just like, I'm tired of you not kind of honoring what you know you did here, which is father me. Right, and you think you're conferring honor on me when I know I've literally, like, Laenor died and Laena died and then, like, you know, Luke died and now you know who I am? Yeah. Bela rejected you and now you remember me? I thought, like, because...

We were talking earlier about the growth from Corliss with the renaming of the Sea Snake. And like, weights and counterweights, like some... Alan saying to him, like, you don't just get to live life completely on your terms, you know, felt very important. It was great. And like, I agree with you. Alan has been a bit...

It's similar to Adam. It's a bit sort of like a cypher all season. They had these two notes that they were playing all season, and we were like, we get it. But as soon as Adam gets claimed by Seasmoke, I'm all in on this character. And once Alan did this, I was like, yes, I want more. We get a quick scene of Misaria and Rhaenyra. Another scene of Rhaena wandering. Oh, yeah. Rhaena's still out there. She's doing... Meanwhile...

Out in the mail. She could really use an REI or something. And then Massaria and Rhaenyra are chatting. This seems to be... She gets back with Daemon.

And she fully is now turning the page to, it looks like I have to go on the front foot. It looks like I have to be the aggressor. It looks like this can't just be for deterrence. And Massaria is saying what? She is saying, the gods have chosen you. So whatever you choose must be divine will. Of all the players playing people, Massaria feels like she's, yeah. Yeah.

Now we get a scene, like the last sort of dramatic scene before this montage, is what I wonder whether will be somewhat controversial with the fandom, which is the second Rhaenyra and Alicent scene. Wonderfully acted by the performers. Certainly interesting as a mirror or inversion of Rhaenyra coming to Alicent in the beginning, towards the beginning of the season, and being like...

you know, let's try to figure out a different way of handling this. And Allison's saying too late. Now Raniere is saying it's too late. Yes. You get the great moment with Olivia Cooke biting her nails. Yes. All this stuff. I just wonder whether or not people will sort of be like, you guys can't keep doing this. This wouldn't have been able to happen. I mean, they were already saying that. So I think we just have to sort of like put that

People felt that so much about the first time that I, of course, that will happen again. How did... This is just so, these are not written about in the books. We do not... Right. How did Allison get there? Orwell knows... Shout out Orwell. Yeah, my goodness. You want to go see Rhaenyra? The emotional payoff... The person we're at war with? No props. The emotional payoff...

of Allison saying, come away with me, wearing robin's egg blue that she wore in season one, episode one. In that episode, Rhaenyra says, I want to fly with you on Dragonback, see the great wonders across the Narrow Sea and eat only cake. Never jest about cake. And like in that scene, Allison is very much like,

You don't care about, you don't care if your dad is the son. You don't want the throne. You don't want, like, what about your duty? What about, like, all this other stuff? Like, this constant duty versus love, you know, binary that we've been talking about all season on House of R for sure. And this way in which their circumstances have flipped. I think I really love that Alison here was talking about sort of

her revelation in Big Bathtub that she had last week that helped clarify that for me. It was really helpful. Big Bathtub season. But like, I, and just the formalities of the watch. Sure, that's me time. That's me time. The, the Halayman shippers might not be having a very good episode. But the, yeah, the Alison Raniere shippers are having a good time. It definitely had a vibe. Yeah, she invites her

with her. The one thing I thought might be controversial now is the idea that Allison is essentially like, I'll leave the back door unlocked if you want to take... Not only that...

But you can have Egg on's head. I mean, this was huge. First of all, I loved the way that they leaned into, again, that meta aspect of how we talk about the story that we read and the way the show is adapted. History will paint you a villain, a cold queen grasping for power and then defeated. That is true. That is how they... You didn't like this. Two on the nose for you. Two on the nose for me. It's... The show kind of exploring this idea of what its mission is, I'm compelled by, right? Like, we are...

to your point, seeing things that to some viewers may like defy credulity. Like, can they keep having these secret meetings? But like, then they almost, I think like they, they, they lend credence to the possibility by reminding us that the histories won't know and don't remember it that way. So I was like interested in that idea. And then the way that like duty and sacrifice has come up between them so many times, it's this recurring idea. I,

loved and thought it was so satisfying when Rhaenyra was like, you're the one who made Virtue your banner. Exactly. Incredible moment. Yeah, for Alyson to be like, don't judge me for fucking Kristen Cole when you fucked Kristen Cole. And Rhaenyra's like, yeah, but I'm not the one who was like, it's a mortal thing. Yeah, it was incredible. And then talk about, because that builds on, of course, their history with each other. You mentioned the dress, that beautiful opening series note.

The egg-on moment, Rhaenyra is 100% right when she says to Alicent,

You still think you can have everything you want, and there's no way for you to go live your life and for us to make this arrangement. You're just going to let me in and the throne will be mine if Aegon lives. No fucking way. And we've been hearing it the entire series. From Otto. From Otto, right? In the fifth episode when he said to Alicent, like, you're no fool and yet you choose not to see it. The time is coming, Alicent. Either you prepare Aegon to rule or you cleave to Rhaenyra and pray for her mercy. This was it.

praying for her mercy this is me word searching cleave in my notes it's the auto moment

What have we heard Rhaenyra say all season? I hope they don't mistake mercy with weakness. I hope they don't mistake mercy with pliancy. And like, Alyson looked at Aegon when he just wanted to like fucking wank out the window and was like, you are the challenge just by living and just by breathing. And Rhaenyra knows that that's true. But it doesn't matter what the facts are in the reality. For Alyson to nod and agree. We talked about this literally last week.

Yeah. No matter what, no matter how fraught the relationships were, she stood in front of Aegon and blocked him from harm at the dragon pit. She stood in front of Helaena at the riot. She was always going to save her kids no matter what. This is a huge moment. It's a huge moment. She's like, well, I've got that backup kid, Darren. I hear he's getting nice. I heard he's kind.

I think I can get the bug one to come with me, maybe. Oh, man. Aemond is burning villages left and right and center. And I asked Orwyle, will Aegon really have any kind of quality of life if he ever recovers from this? I heard his penis got split open like a sausage. So maybe it's time to pack it up. But I think that like...

I think, in all seriousness, Emma's performance of Rhaenyra waiting to see what Alicent will do in that moment. Master negotiator. Master negotiator, but, like, the way that they... I think Emma is just so extraordinary, and the way that just a million different emotions play across their face there, like, where it's just sort of, like, there's...

I have to steal myself and ask for this, but also empathy for... You don't want to do that to the person you love. You don't want to say a son for a son to the person you love. I really like that she repeats multiple times, like, why did you come? Because it's trying to get to the actual pure motivation. Is it purely for you to get out of this life? Right. Or is it because you really want to save thousands of lives? I really was only bringing this up as a controversial idea because betrayal in these stories is...

is a huge scarlet letter that, like, Jaime carries around for the entire show of Game of Thrones as you're the Kingslayer. It's like, remember what Varys said to Ned when Ned was like, who do you serve? The realm, someone must. That's always one of the things we love talking about. Like, how many characters could really claim that that was true? That they actually cared about the good of the realm? How many of them just tell themselves they care about the good of the realm to further whatever their agenda or their ends might be? So...

If you've lived your life talking about duty and sacrifice and you really believe that giving Rhaenyra the throne is the right thing, then it will lead to peace. And that's the sacrifice you have to make, then everything you've ever said you believe is on the line. And they just can't go out and just be like, go public, the two of us, like, I fucked up. Like, the vision that my husband told me about was not... You are the challenge. Just by living...

breathing. It's too late. Okay, so... I think one of the most important sort of grace notes on this scene, because then we get the montage of all the armies marching. Tesserians! We get the blue belly of Darren's dragon, Tesserian. That all happens, but the final shots are Rhaenyra,

framed by all this lattice work. She's caged in. A piece of the history. Where she found the seeds, right? Exactly. But she's all caged in and Alicent is in front of a wide open horizon. And all season, we've been watching Rhaenyra in front of a wide open horizon and Alicent caged in, caged in, caged in. Did she make a window in the wall of her prison? Exactly. No, she busted... No, she didn't even... Busted out completely. She's been looking out of the window and now she is... Shawshank time. She took one big bath. That's all it took. And now she's like the whole world. So Alicent...

I don't know what's going to happen for this character going forward. I do in some sense, but I don't in another because the portrayal is so different in the version of the book. But I think I believe her when she's like, I found my way, myself, a way back to myself. Like, and no matter what miseries are to come, for Alicent, I think there will be just solace in the fact that like,

She's located, I think, actual morality, which is an odd thing for me to say in a scene where she was like, okay, you can kill my son. But like, I think that idea of like, no, this is me. I have been play acting ever since my dad told me to dress up in my dead mother's dress and go talk to the king. I have been play acting a role. And now I am finally back to season one, episode one. To be fair, not a great son, though.

You know what I mean? It's not like it was Helena. Everyone wants to do something great and be remembered, and Allison literally says, I want to die unremarked and unnoticed and be free, and to stare out into that open air and that water. I also love that framing of that Rhaenyra shot because she's like...

It's very much of a piece with this question and theme of the episode. Like, you are a piece, a part of that history. Right, so small. They're both framed so tiny in those shots. And also just, yeah, what decision has Rhaenyra made in this episode? Because early in the episode, she's out on her balcony with Vissaria, like getting her wide vista shots that she usually gets. What decision has she made in this episode that has put her in that tiny little box?

And I think that's something for us all to think about. Was it smaller than the box Otto was in? Otto! In this montage, we get a bunch of stuff. Aegon and Larys escape. Yes! Otto is in a box. He's in prison. He is in a cell. Okay, we don't know anything about that. Isn't it moving, though? It seems like he's moving. I think he's on a boat.

So a brig. So a brig. Or in a carriage of some kind. The triarchy wouldn't have told Tylan, by the way, we got your guy. Okay. Tylan and his wife are approaching the gullet, which is the sort of barricade, the blockade that they've got, right? Mm-hmm.

His twin, Jason, he has a twin. Moving toward that red fork. Is approaching the Riverlands from the west. This is all Jo, by the way. I did not know what was going on. Approaching the Riverlands from the west of the continent. Darren...

Yeah. We have not met yet. Wow. He has not been cast yet. But Tessarian, the blue dragon, rides over the green army. This is not Kristen and Gwyn. Right. This is the Hightowers from the South. We've been hearing about them all season. Ormond Hightower forces. We're going to do fun video only, but also just kind of open air mapping right now. This is King's Landing and this is the Riverlands, right? This is like Steve Conrackian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me my big board and some khakis. This is King's Landing and this is the Riverlands.

Thailand's coming this way. Tesseract and Darren are coming up from here. Jason and the Lannisters are coming from here. The Starks are coming down the Twins. Winter Wolves! Yeah, the Starks are coming down into the Riverlands. And what is so interesting about a lot of that

That we will have to wait two years to see. That's one part of it. And also, shout out Ramin Djawadi and the score where he would just introduce various house themes into what was happening here. But as everyone's assembling, as we see Sheepstealer, not just Asari, but we see Sheepstealer, a really cool rattling, creepy dragon. That's Reyna's dragon. That's Reyna's dragon. Well, it's the dragon that Reyna is pursuing. Yeah.

Is he eating a sheep at the end there? Stealing a sheep? There are elements on the board that people are aware of and there are elements they're not aware of. So again, we'll talk about this in two years' time, but like... See you guys in 26. No, I will see both of you next year for fucking Dunkin' A's. Well, they had a Night of the Seven Kingdoms footage tonight. It's on HBO's YouTube and everything. We both shrieked about it. No, no, but like I just want to say really quickly, and then we're done maybe, is that, you know, like...

thinks he's like amassed this huge Riverland army. He's like, I get it. I know what's happening. All this other stuff like that. They don't know Thailand's coming with the triarchy. They don't know that's happening. And then Jason Lannister's like, I'm going to kill these Riverlanders. They don't know the Starks are coming. They don't know the Winterwolves are on their way. And so like there are these pieces on the board that are moving around but no one except for maybe Laris

Has a full... And he's not telling anyone. Maybe he's on the board. Helena's never seen it. I'm on season seven of Game of Thrones. Yeah, exactly. Let's ask... I have a couple questions from YouTube commenters. One is...

I asked already, which was who is the dragon at the end? This is Sheepstealer. Sheepstealer. One of the wild dragons of Dragonstone who we heard Lady Jane explain had to venture up to the Vale for more sheep. So cool. It sounded great. David also asked here, who is your MVP for season two? Character or performer? I'm going to tweak this question a little bit. Who is the character that improved the most in your standing? You just want us to talk about Kristen again?

You're shameless. We already talked about Kristen. I already stared at the camera. That was naked, Chris. Which is the coolest. No, I don't know. Who's your MVP for this season? Who's your favorite character this season? I think the scenes that I enjoyed the most were the ones between Laris and Aegon. Genuinely. Okay. Welcome to Team Laris. Genuinely. I loved them. And every Gawain scene. Yes. I loved the Gawain scenes. Fine. But I remain Team Black despite picking two.

Character sense. You know where the fun is. You know where the party is. I'll represent Team Black and I'll say, and I said at the beginning of the season, Simon Strong and Ulf the White. We needed that levity. We needed Simon clapping with glee in the background as Damon's screaming to war and everyone's roaring behind him and Alfred Broome's like, I gotta go. Yeah. So Simon and Ulf. But like really it's...

It's Emma Darcy as Rhaenyra. Yeah, I mean, she's... Fantastic. They're all great. Rhaenyra's character, like, the character Rhaenyra is, like, the one who I think has kind of, like, stepped into the maybe, like, this show needed a main character void. Kristen and Gwyn. Yeah. Bye, guys. We know. Yeah. We know, buddy. Thank you so much for doing this season with us. Oh, my God. Don't!

Well, you guys have like five and a half hours of podcasting to do this week anyway, right? This is our fun for a while. Our fun song. Thanks so much for watching us on YouTube. Thanks for listening to us. Thanks to all the people who helped me. Yeah, thank you to our incredible Talk the Throats crew. Team, thank you. Every week we got to do this. This was a real pleasure. Hopefully we'll be here for Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

I'll be here. House of the Dragon season three. Just smell it. You know. I can't wait. Blade Runner 2099. We'll see. All right. Thanks everybody for watching on the Ringiverse YouTube and listening on House of R and watching on House of R. We'll see you soon.