It’s a "Glicked" Double Dive: ‘Gladiator II’ and ‘Wicked’ | House of R
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I remember that day. I never forgot it. That a slave could take revenge against an emperor. Where were you born? I don't know. I never knew a mother nor a father. You will be my instrument. Who are you? She doesn't give a twink when anyone sings. Of course she does. She just pretends not to.

Welcome to a very special pre-holiday edition of House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. That's Mallory Rubin. And according to the Time Dragon Clock, it is Thighs O'Clock, baby. We are here to cover both Wicked Part 1 and Gladiator 2 at your fond request. And I'm delighted to be here. Mallory Rubin, how are you feeling? Are you excited to talk about

thighs and also which stuff go? I am. I'm thrilled. Thrilled to be here for a surprise, glicked, double dive. I'm elated to share this dual moviegoing experience together. I indicated in the group chat last week, I believe, that I'd be seeking a standing desk for

before this pod so that I could participate fully in thighs o'clock. I was not able to procure one in time. Okay. Sadly, it's just, it's always thighs o'clock in my heart. It's thighs and repose. We're thighs and repose today. And that is fine. Listen. Okay.

You mentioned Glicked. As we mentioned last week on the podcast, as I mentioned at least, I was not overly fond of Glicked as a portmanteau for Gladiator and Wicked, the double cinematic experience. So we asked our listeners for a couple things. One, we asked them for suggestions on how they would combine Gladiator and Wicked into a jaunty little phrase or portmanteau.

And also to please risk life and limb in order to take selfies inside of the rickety Nosferatu coffins in your local AMC theater. One of us asked for that. Not a single person has decided to potentially injure themselves for my pleasure.

And I'm just saying, if you want to do that and then send me a video that just says, are you not entertained? It would be on theme. So there's still time to do that. I'm just saying. I didn't see the coffin when I went to see wicked. I did look.

I did follow up as promised with another photo of me standing underneath Craven's abs. And I'll continue to do that as often as for the rest of the year. The movie theaters of Los Angeles allow me to. I think I want a whole album of you just pointing at a greasy ab or two. You're going to get one. Sounds great. Our listeners did come through with some names, some potential names. So I'm going to run through them. Okay. We got thighs and dolls. Love it. Yeah. Great. We got there's no place like Rome.

uh which i really like okay great wonderful and then our listener adam came through with a whole bunch um i'm just gonna read you a couple a song of thighs and fiero uh to give us a nice thronesian i like it um no one mourns the thicket oh oh that made me laugh

But the overall winner, we have many, many emails about this. And I think we have settled that this is the official house of our, we're doing De-Thighing Gravity. That is the one. We got a bunch of listener emails on that front. You guys crushed it. Thanks so much. Even though we don't actually want to de-thigh anything. No, no, no. We want the thighs to be present and ample. Re-thighing gravity. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. This is a great one. I'm up. Rugging reminders. Yeah, tell us. It is a holiday week. Is it? Yeah.

We will have some offerings here in House of R. The boys, Pew Pew, and the rest of the Ringiverse teams are taking the week off. And I love that for them. Me too, genuinely. We will have a Ringiverse recommends from the whole crew that's going to drop this week, though. Next week, we're all sort of getting on the Skeleton Crew bandwagon. That's really exciting. We're Star Wars-ing it up. Button Match has a PSI 30th anniversary draft. That makes me feel fucking...

ancient, rightly, young, chint, withered, crone, mural. You know, anyway. So, and...

Some of our upcoming episodes, if all goes well and planned, will be done in person because I'll be down in L.A. So Molly and I will be covering Dune Prophecy, covering Skeleton Crew, gazing into each other's eyes. That's right. You're coming to L.A. the first week of December for previously settled reasons. And as discussed on our most recent podcast on Friday, then you're staying an entire additional week so that we can see Kraven together. For all perpetuity.

If you want to rent out a private theater every week for us to watch Craven, then I'll never leave LA. So that's just something to think about. I'm in. That's a lot. Not just our personal Craven viewing schedule, but everything else is going on. So Mallory Rubin, how can folks keep track of all the stuff that's happening here, there, and everywhere?

Great question. Yeah. Great question. Thanks for asking. When someone figures out the answer, let me know. Here's what we would recommend. Yeah. It's simple. Follow the pod. Follow House of R. Follow The Ringiverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's the amazing thing about following on Spotify, though. You could get full episodes, video episodes.

of House of R and Midnight Boys, pew pew, on Spotify. You can also watch those full video episodes on the Ringerverse. I almost said newish again, but then I stopped because you were so proud of me for not saying it last week. On the Ringerverse YouTube channel, so subscribe there as well. While you're at it, follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing.

And then send us an email, Joe. The emails are coming in. No coffin photos yet. Yet. But plenty of other emails. Dune emails. Yeah. We got one this morning that was just labeled, I think, not enough space coke or too much space coke, which has to do with Dune prophecy. Stay tuned to find out more about that. Yeah. So please do email us. We appreciate that about you.

Spoiler warning for today. Yes. Yeah. So we're doing Gladiator and we're doing Wicked. Those are the two things we're doing. We're going to do them in two different sections so that if you've only seen Gladiator, you can listen to the first half. If you've only seen Wicked, you can listen to the second half. And then furthermore, in the Wicked section, we do have a little mini spoiler section for Wicked because there is a part two of this film coming. It is act two of a very, very popular, well-known musical. But just in case...

You don't know the plot of Wicked Act 2 or The Wizard of Oz, I guess. We are going to save that for a little spoiler section. So that's sort of the plan. We don't have a ton to talk about there. We just thought we'd have a little spoiler section and then somewhere in the mix there. Depending on how well this goes over.

We have a little game, a little present for Mallory Rubin that I cooked up and I forever destroyed my search algorithm doing so. We're calling it Name That Thigh, where Mallory will be looking at some zoomed in photos of herself.

various famous thighs and trying to identify them here on this audio podcast. But it is also a video podcast. Let this be everyone's incentive to join us on video. If you want to see it, you know where to find us.

On the not-so-new feed on YouTube and on Spotify. I love this. I'm excited. This is how I know you're a really generous friend and creative partner. Because I would say while I am fairly regularly horny on me and on the pod, I don't know that I'm necessarily horny.

for my thigh lust, whereas I think you are very prone to thigh lust. Oh, am I? And yet you have decided to give me the thigh quiz to cheer me up because you know I'm having a tough few days here. You are having a time. That's how I know you were just the pal of all pals, like just collecting a bunch of photos of thighs for me to gaze upon. Wonderful. Thank you. Today I learned I have a thigh thing. I did not know that this was a me thing. Oh, yes.

I mean, it can be an all of us thing, which is great. We're all learning and growing together. Okay. Will I have a surprise thigh or two for you to look at? Who can say? Is Halo around? Furry little Halo haunch? Oh, man. He does have muscular haunches, as you know. He's a...

He's an Olympic caliber athlete. It's Thanksgiving. I should have done something more like fire drumstick. I don't know. We'll see. Okay. Nevermind. It's not too late. You said it was the last segment. You get audible in real time if you want. Okay. Should we talk a little bit about gladiator two? Let's do it. Just, just a, just a little, little, little bit. If you want a deeper dive into gladiator two, Mallory,

Sean fantasy, Christopher Ryan did a really good episode of the big pick on it. And then I will be on trial by content later this week with David Neal to wrap up our Denzel Washington three week extravaganza with our gladiator two takes. So you will hear more about my gladiator two feelings there. You can hear more Mallory's over there, but we wanted to give you sort of our joint takes on this film.

Written by David Scarpa, directed by Ridley Scott, long-awaited question mark sequel to the Best Picture winner from the year 2000, Gladiator. Set 16 years after the events that kicked off the first Gladiator film and centers on Lucius Verus Aurelius, who is the son of...

Both Lucilla, who is a character in this film, and Maximus Decimus Meridius, which is Russell Crowe's character from Gladiator. So that is the gist. This opened, of course, several days ago. We were recording this on the Monday after opening weekend here on the US of A. An okay box office showing. A little disappointing, I think, a little below what they wanted, but not embarrassing. Okay.

55.5 million domestic. Not embarrassing at all. And then the critical and fan reaction, critical reaction, pretty low. Fan reaction, not great, not terrible. I don't think this is like a failure, but I think this is something like if you were really, really looking forward to Gladiator 2, I think this is something that everyone feels like is

Not great. Not what they wanted, maybe, is sort of where we're standing. In terms of your hype level, Mallory, other than you putting it on a draft earlier this year, what's your relationship to the original Gladiator and how much was that informing your sort of expectations for this film? Yeah, I was incredibly excited for the movie. As you just alluded to, I selected it

to the rage of my fellow drafters in the second round of the annual House of Horror. I remember supporting you. I remember supporting you. I think you came around late and certainly by the fall hype meter, you also had it, you had it on your list and had embraced it in full. And it's like, I think rage came from a fantasy shaped object. Sean was appalled. I think mostly because he was like, I would have just picked this if I had done it. I could. Yeah. Um,

So I was very much looking forward to the movie. I love the original Gladiator. I think it's incredible. I...

I said on Big Pick that one of the things I love about it is it's a movie that really thrills you the first time you see it, and then you never tire of revisiting it. Rewatching it, heading into this movie, which I then really regretted having consumed it in such close proximity to the new movie. It was just so fun to go back and watch it again. I love it. The performances are wonderful. The spectacle is so supreme. I'm a sucker for a tale set in Rome in general, but...

I was really, and also in addition to really loving the first movie, I love so many of the performers in this film. Paul Meskel and Pedro Pascal are two of my greatest loves. And obviously there are a ton of other incredibly meaningful and important and talented performers in the movie. It's like the idea of having Denzel in this movie was so exciting. We love Joe Quinn, et cetera, et cetera.

And, you know, I love a Ridley Scott movie. Blade Runner is one of my favorite movies. I love Alien. It's Thelma and Louise, you know, on and on and on the list goes. So pretty much everything about this had me as excited as I possibly could have been for a movie. That was the hype I brought into it. How about you? What was your hype level heading in? I'm not someone who has rewatched

uh, gladiator a ton of times. Uh, I, I can't remember every watching it. Actually. I like remember so fondly and distinctly watching it in the theaters, obviously near 2000 as a freshman in college, which really, really like went with the dorm. It's really, really fun. Um, and, um,

remember listening to the soundtrack over and over and over and over and over again. But I don't remember sitting down and saying, I'm just going to watch Gladiator. But then when I popped it on in advance of Gladiator 2, I remembered it so well. And you and I have talked about the fact that maybe our memories aren't what they used to be. Maybe sometimes we feel like we're- I'm certainly not. Got like gaping craters inside of our brains. Apparently my brain, my little struggling little brain was holding onto all the information about Gladiator because I remembered everything. And I was like,

Wow. And of course, absolutely slaps. So I was really excited for this because as you mentioned, a lot of our favorites are in it. I had heard from some people I trust and now I'm questioning like early on, like months ago, they had seen it and they were like, actually, I think he did it because I also love a Ridley Scott movie, but you named a bunch of Ridley Scott movies from very early in his career. And I would say of late, Ridley has not really been doing it for me. And so I was like, okay,

Ridley came back around for Gladiator, something that means a lot to him and means a lot to all of us. And then I saw it and I was like, it didn't really hit for me. I really wanted it to. We had heard from Sean and Chris that they didn't really like it and...

Sean and Chris are the two people that I would assume would most like Gladiator 2. So I was like, oh no. But I went in so determined. I was like, maybe I will love this. Maybe it will just be for me. I heard there were thighs and I just found out mere minutes ago that I have a thigh thing. And like...

And I love a Shakespearean, hidden identity, long lost heir sort of story. Sounds great to me. And then I watched it and I just straight up did not have a wonderful time with it.

With the exception of every single second that Denzel Washington was on screen, which was a feast for all of us. So I wouldn't say that Gladiator's top of my list of films that I hold close to my heart, but I recognize it as such a solid example of sword and sandal filmmaking and one that I really loved and a tour de force from Russell Crowe. And then also in rewatching it, I was just reminded of all the great...

older actor, you know, like Richard Harris shows up and then Oliver Reed is there and then Derek Jacoby, who is in this movie, but you wouldn't know it because he's very wasted. You know, it's like all these, like, all these, like, great, like, old dudes are in the original Gladiator in addition to Joaquin doing everything he's doing and stuff like that. So I am... Yeah, I guess...

most my biggest takeaway from gladiator 2 is how much it has reinforced my appreciation for the first gladiator film yeah uh while not being the additive thing that i was hoping it would yeah i think i was saying sort of like a snapshot yeah i mean i you know i i guess i i i'll say what what i thought of the movie i i didn't

I didn't dislike gladiator two. You know, I had fun at the movies. I was genuinely like, are we not entertained? I was entertained, genuinely entertained. I had a, you know, a full spread of confections and various savory items as well. I'm worried for you, but I support you. Full meal. Uh,

And, you know, ran into a couple pals at the screening and I was excited to see it, having just rewatched the movie a couple days prior. And I was laughing and had my jaw open a few times watching some of the scenes.

Set pieces play out. So an entertainment quality was there for me, but I just found so many things in the story to be confounding and particularly like in a, in a specific micro sense, but also just in the macro sense, the movie is so similar to the first one that it just,

makes it impossible to not feel that it didn't live up to that. Because it's so similar, you can't help but make comp after comp after comp. And we talked about this a lot in The Big Pick, but one of the issues I had with it was what felt like the simultaneous similar, similar, similar, similar, similar until. And then that really robbed for me my ability to get lost in the movie because...

to use Macrinus as an example, it's like, okay, well, this is the proximal figure. And it feels clear that the intention is to subvert our expectation of how that character actually did stand by Maximus's side, et cetera. So it was simultaneously so similar and familiar. And then all of the end points, did this character die? They're probably going to live, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Did this character stay loyal? They're probably going to,

be a source of treachery. Is this a character you have your eye on because we think they're the enemy? They're actually probably going to be good. And so there was like less suspense in terms of the character dynamics and the plot.

But also just your mind kept making the comp to the thing you already were much more familiar with. And that was just a very, I thought, disorienting and distracting viewing experience on top of everything else. So entertaining, but in terms of the quality, I think just not particularly close to the first film. And I wonder if... I've only seen this once.

You know, we talk about this a lot, but like often when I see a movie for a second time or third time and know what awaits, I'm able to like appreciate it more. And on Friday when I was recording Big Pick or Thursday when I was recording Big Pick with Sean and Chris, I felt like that would be my experience with Gladiator 2. Like when I see it again, I'll probably like it more. And maybe that's true, but I will say the more I've thought about it since seeing it, the less...

positive I feel about it. So I don't know. I'll be curious. But again, it was like, it was a fun movie. It's not really about whether it was fun. It's about some of the, I think, particular choices in the plotting, some of the retconning, which I found not surprising, but still confounding. And I think the tonal adjacency issues between certain pockets of the cast. For me, yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah. Um,

Yes. Everything was like, you know, there are two creepy little emperors in this movie. Delightful. And everything with Fred Heshinger's character and his monkey is,

I felt like I felt like bread and circuses I was just sort of like yes console Dondas let's refer to him by his proper title everything with the monkey and actually I was having a great time wonderful stuff I don't know what that says about me but here we are um for me in terms of the like tonal swings both in performance but also in just sort of the arc of the movie something that I really felt I actually don't have a ton of information about this so I'm not I'm not

like saying, I know behind the scenes stuff and this is why I just felt that. And this is something Ridley does all the time that he shot like a five hour movie. And then we got this chopped down version of it. We know that there are certain characters that were like sort of cut out entirely. So like that. And I just really felt that where I just felt like we're missing the scenes that lead up to this. And I, if I were to guess, and this is sort of where we're going to go somewhat next, but like if I were to guess, I,

I would say a lot of Pedro Pascal stuff didn't make it into the film. That would be my guess. Cause he's second build in the film. And for why, um, before we get into sort of some performance based stuff, I want to follow up on this, on the sequel idea that you talked about this idea that it's like a retread of the original plot until it's not to your point. Um, something I was thinking about, I was thinking about that. That is a, probably one of the most common complaints about this movie. And it really, I think justified one. Um,

But I was like, that's not a disqualifier for some sequels that you and I both have enjoyed in the past. And some examples I could come up with of films that have been accused of being retreads of previous installments of the franchise are The Force Awakens. Got that all the time. And I personally love The Force Awakens. Same.

The Last Jedi, a film that you and I don't need to spend any more of our breath defending, but gets a lot of Empire Strikes Back comps. Ghostbusters 2 is genuinely made fun of because it feels like a retread of the first Ghostbusters movie, and I'm just like...

I mean, as you know, on our recent, you know, props episode, I would gladly own a portrait of Viggo the Carpathian. I actually think I enjoy Ghostbusters 2 more than I enjoy the first Ghostbusters. And I understand that that is like a blasphemous thing to say. T2 Judgment Day does exactly what you're talking about, where it gives us almost like frame for frame.

reshoots of the original Terminator setups and stuff like that, the Terminator film. But since Arnold Schwarzenegger is playing a defender rather than the pursuer this time, there are all these just like twists on it. Terminator 2, obviously a masterpiece. Top Gun Maverick!

Mm-hmm. Playing the hits and just doing it really well. And then something like Incredibles 2. So, like, this is something that, like, some of our biggest entertainment does time and again. And it works in those instances in a way that it did not, for me, work here. And I'm trying... I was trying to figure out why. And I think it's that plot structure is less...

it's important, but it's less important than I think having characters. We feel like we can really connect to and sink into the reason that the star Wars sequels work for us is that we feel incredibly emotionally connected to those characters. I, you know, the way that Terminator two works because Sarah Connor is like one of the,

I care deeply about Sarah, John Connor hit or miss Sarah Connor. I care about her a lot. And then like Top Gun Maverick. I mean, I don't know if that's there. There's a lot of actually emotionality going on in Top Gun Maverick as it deepens sort of our, our understanding of the first Top Gun and of Maverick as a character. And so like, I feel like despite the incredible actors that are, that are performing in this film,

And we're going to talk about a couple of our faves in a second. But like, yeah, I didn't feel like I had access to. OK, I'm going to say something that I usually try never to talk about because I don't think that it is good for womankind in general. But I just want to say that Connie Nielsen, who is someone that I really enjoy. I was just going to say this. Yeah. Has Botox her face to a degree that like she was in. This is not what you're going to say. This is what I was going to say.

carry on that like to a degree has put so much filler in her face that like she seemed incapable of making facial expressions to a certain degree i quite like her in the first film i found her largely inaccessible here and then i've seen her in the press interviews for this and her face is like her fillers have like settled to a degree that she's able to make facial expressions again and so i'm just sort of like she just she looks like frozen and

Out of time and like all this stuff. Again, I like I try not to talk about women and like the work they've had done on their face. But this is one of those instances where I was like, you physically cannot make the expressions you need to make so that I can relate to you as a human being in this film. That was my experience. What were you going to say about Connie Nielsen?

It just was not a performance in this movie that I thought worked at all. And it's supposed to be the emotional center. It's supposed to be Lucilla as a character and then her relationships with a number of different characters in the film. Like, obviously, with her son Lucius, but also with Acacius, that relationship in particular did not work.

Did it exist at all? Yeah. Or to the point where I was like, wait, are we going to learn that this is not a real... I couldn't tell if we were supposed to doubt the depth of their affection for each other at certain points in the film. So I think that is one of the huge differences between the success of this movie and the success of the other movies that you just cited, not only maybe overall differences,

excellence and quality, but the idea of a connection to a prior story and the parallels, it's like, what are the parallels for? Are they supposed to tell us something about...

ability to change? Are they supposed to tell us something about the cycles and patterns that society falls into? The parallels between A New Hope and Force Awakened not only never bothered me, but always thrilled me because one, there's the meta, like we are resetting your experience as Star Wars fans quality to it. But also like-

The fact that the galaxy found itself in that place again was part of the point, part of the text of the story. And I think that I would say the comp there is not clear to me in Gladiator 2 and a lot of the origin story stuff for how Lucius came to be in this position and feel this way about Rome. We have some of what we need. He's cast out by his mother to protect him, question mark, from the people who want to come take his...

path to the throne away and then he has to run away during a like soccer match and then is like lost to everyone and then finds love and found family and that's great and a sense of belonging and then starts to see Rome from the outside and judge it and hold it in low esteem but like we only have a couple beats to establish all of that

And so when Lucius sees his mother and he sees her next to Acacia, a character he loathes and blames for the death of his wife, for the horrors that have inflicted Numidia and the places that he called home. Okay, the fact that he sees her next to him and is appalled, that clocks. But when she goes into his cell and he has no...

There's no part of him in that scene that is moved by that reunion. I found that difficult to understand. And I don't think we know enough about the characters or their circumstances for that to work. And that's the heart of the movie and every choice every character makes. That, yes. The heart of Lucius is so important. And we're going to talk about Paul as a performer and what he's capable of and all that sort of stuff. But also that larger question of...

empires rising and falling in cycles like i think that the the force awakens comp the devastation that we did all this and then we lapsed back into fascism or also in the force awakens the the burden of a legacy that looms over the next generation when you think about like kylo ren and his very famous parents and stuff like that so like for lucius for

you know, to have his father's like armor on the wall. And for all of us to know from the minute he sees it, that he's going to wear it in the final act of the movie. Like, of course he is. But like, even if of course he is, what does it mean to him?

So in the part that you mentioned about him reuniting with his mother, what I think, and maybe I just need to watch the movie again to get clarity on this, but I think it is ambiguous to me whether or not he has actually suppressed...

some of the memory of who he was or whether or not that is entirely an act he's putting on. Because to me in the performance, there are moments where it feels like he is remembering things that he had sort of put away. And then there are other moments where I was just like, no, that was just sort of his emotional cover for something and that or the other thing.

But let's go back to the armor thing. What did you want to say about that? Well, what did you make about the choice to reveal that he's Maximus' son, which is just obviously not the case in the first movie. And I found like... I always thought that was the implication of the first movie. Really? Yeah. I found this so odd. Really? I always... So you didn't bump on this at all. You felt like this was always the implication and then they're just like solidifying it. That was just always my assumption was that he was his father. Yeah.

Okay. Because of her...

you know, connection with him. And then like, I have a son, he's about the same age, like all this other stuff. It was like, I don't know. That was always my assumption. But again, I haven't like, I haven't been a frequent rewatcher of gladiator. So it's possible that when I re I knew that that was the premise of this movie. So it's possible that when, when I rewatched gladiator this time, I was watching it with that lens. But I, when I watched it with that lens this time, it was my memory that that was always my like,

theory or assumption that that was like an implied issue but not stated. I don't know. But you bumped on it. You didn't like it. You felt like it was a massive retcon. I feel that it takes the...

centerpiece of the first movie and complicates it for no reason. Like, I don't know that Lucius has to be Maximus' biological son for any of the lessons that, and actually I feel like undermines a little bit the point of the first movie, which is that like he was a source of inspiration for everyone, whether or not they had a direct tie to him.

and especially because we saw how Lucius as a boy, like responded to him and was awed by him. I don't know that he needed to think he was his biological son for this sort of like tether to feel like a meaningful pull into a different sort of life. It actually felt to me like a, like the movie meeting a,

excuse or shortcut to have him embrace his legacy ultimately, which is not something that he felt a pull toward in any other respect, really. And I think because the first movie hinges so fully on Maximus avenging his wife and son,

The fact that Lucilla in the first movie, like, obviously I agree with you that their romantic history is apparent, but, and present in a certain stretch of the film. The fact that she's never like, and by the way, you have a living son, just doesn't make sense to me then. Like, it just, I found it again kind of like, and also just distracting in the like, wait, did like,

did I like forget something about this movie or miss something about this movie? It was just like a disorienting kind of viewing experience, which it sounds like other people have, but maybe, maybe not everyone. So yeah, I was just curious if that was something you bumped on or not, but I'm actually heartened to know that that's not something that is like throwing everybody. On the Pedro and Paul front, we want to talk about two of our faves. We love them with all our hearts. We've been talking about Paul a bit. Let's, let's, let's swing back to Pedro. Um,

I keep going back and forth on this. Like, why would you hire Pedro Pascal to do this?

Because part of it, I was like, why wouldn't you let him have more verve, more personality, more... He's so good at being sort of cheeky or funny or all this other stuff. And then I was like, wait, but we've seen him, of course, in a number of stoic performances recently. He's giving stoic in The Mandalorian. He's giving stoicism in The Last of Us. But The Last of Us, his stoicism, A, is bumping up against...

Another character who is the opposite of stoic. And then also there is that sort of like cracking open of Joel and the last of us that we so enjoy watching where we see some of that, like personality and warmth come seep back into him. And so for, for us to get a cautious, uh,

Just a blank, a nothing of a character who has like honor and looks good in his armor and has, I would say the closest I came to sort of really feeling like, okay, they're letting Pedro do something interesting was just simply his silent reaction to watching the bodies burn at the end of the first battle. But to your point, like with Lucilla, like,

And then even with Lucius when they're sort of fighting in the arena and he's like giving himself for Lucius and stuff like that. It's not hitting. It's not what we want, what I want from Pedro. And I just feel like

Pedro, both Pedro and Paul have like, have, and Jo Quinn have sort of had this like explosive last few years to the degree that like kind of everyone wants to put them in their movie. Yeah. But are not considering what they're best at. You can't just put Pedro Pascal in your movie. Well, you can. And I had a great time looking at him, but like, you can't just do that without a mind to what it is that Pedro Pascal can bring to the party. I don't know. What do you, what do you think about this?

Yeah, this was one of the big disappointments of the movie. And I think what you said earlier about really feeling like there was just a ton of material that got cut seems clearly like the case, right? It just seems... I think the second billing and then runtime part of it, just the sheer math of it makes that seem likely, but also the number of...

stretches where it felt like some sort of connective tissue between scenes or meaningful moments was just absent. You know, I agree. I don't mind. I think Pedro is, like, just an immensely gifted and charismatic performer, but I also, for that reason, often am very compelled by his more stoic roles because when you get those, like, Last of Us emotion bombs, like you're referencing, they just annihilate you. Yeah. Same in Mando, obviously. You know, it's like...

Like, the way that his, the expression on his face when Grogu touches his cheek for the first time, it just, like, turns you into a puddle. It's just almost unbearable. He's so long. He can convey. I know. He's seen Dindar's helmet off. I know.

Um, he could, he could just convey so much with a, a solitary, a single expression. Um, so for me, this was more about the material than the performance. Like I think that the, the scene pairings and how much of, how much of it, the movie put him just with Lucilla and again, a relationship movie that was not working. Um,

but also how his character and the deployment of his character, I think, feels emblematic of some of the shortcomings of the film structurally. Like...

I found the moment between him and Lucius in the arena, into the Coliseum, to be compelling. Also, he's physically just such an amazingly gifted performer. They both are. Actually, I was like, oh, this is sort of what I was hoping this movie was going to be for that stretch of the scene. Yeah.

But then it was not just that I was like, wait a minute, is he seriously dead? We have like a long time left in the movie. And he was in like five scenes. But then when Lucilla comes to visit Lucius after, he's basically like, we're all good now. And I'm like, why? Because he's, what does, what does Lucius,

Acacius' choice tell you for sure about your mother. It just, like, everything felt like it was on fast forward in a way that I found just quite odd. I would have loved more Pedro scenes. I would have loved getting to see him interact with more of the characters because, you know, on the tonal mismatch front, I actually think there's

The issue to me is not that it felt like there were two camps of performers who were in radically different movies, though that is, I would say, irrefutably the case. It's that that wasn't, like, leaned into more. My favorite part, I think, for Pedro was when he's, like, up against our...

absolutely shitbag emperors. Exactly. You know, and he was like, torture me, do whatever you want, but do not lecture me. Yeah, exactly. Like, stop talking. Exactly. And so, like, it's not, I have no issue, actually, with the fact that they have such different energies and, like, ethoses. That's actually cool. I would have liked to get to see that conflict and tension between the characters and the, well,

calibration of the performances because I think that it tells us something about the differences in how they've chosen to live their lives. And, you know, that ultimately is one of the other, like, same but different aspects between the films, right? It's like they're both, in theory, taking place on the backdrop of what should Rome be? What does Rome represent in the world and what should it be? And what do we have a duty, yes, to, like, seek and preserve so that we can then send it out into the world? And it's just, like, again, flipped, right? You have the...

Marcus Aurelius' dream of Rome that people are trying to protect and then Commodus' bastardizing, right? Stealing and bastardizing. And then here you have these batshit twins who have turned Rome and thus the entire empire into their personal playpen and think that they can push the loyalty of the people to the point where they will never be held accountable. And then we see with the riots and the response to killing Acacius, et cetera, that that will not be the case.

But like the citizens of Rome are not characters in the movie. Like even the Senate is in this movie, I think less fully deployed as a like lens into the machinations of power and politics, you know? And like seeing our guy, Derek Jacoby, just get his throat sliced. I was like, wait, no.

I need more. Why is he? I mean, like he's, he's there for a few scenes and I was like, okay, Derek Jacoby's here. Tim McInerney, who I, there's a lot of Dr. Who actors in this movie, but like Tim McInerney's here. But like, again, as more of like a punchline, a punching bag for Denzel Washington's character, someone who just gets like swallowed up by Denzel's performance rather than like any illuminating the current state of the Senate under the reign of these,

toddler tyrants you know um for pedro fans i just want to take a glimpse a look on the horizon we've got mandalorian grogu a film that we have some questions about and we will be there zero zero questions just joy and hope and belief because i've never been disappointed by anticipating a star wars movie that i feel sure will i've been told will arrive in mere years okay

It's just me alone on this podcast enjoying thighs and being worried about Mandalorian and Grogu, the cinematic experience. We have Fantastic Four. Yes. Something you and I are both very excited about, but I just want to like, if you're listening, anyone, I guess like Reed Richards, there are different ways you can go with Reed Richards. And I'm just hoping that we get like...

Not just him being the anchor for like Johnny and other characters that bounce off of, but for that, like sort of a vuncular warm, uh,

And I don't know, just letting Pedro do all like play all the cards in his hands, you know, is my hope. Fantastic four. I feel like they know what they're doing. I really, I really hope so. He's doing an Ari Aster film, Eddington, which just, wow. That's that's, I love that for him. That is like a, that is a different path entirely to take on his career. And I'm really interested in that. And then last but certainly not least on the upcoming CV, um,

Celine Song's love triangle follow-up to past lives of film you and I both really loved called The Materialists and this will start Dakota Johnson and Chris Evans and the plot of this film is set in New York City the film follows the story of a matchmaker Johnson her ex-boyfriend Evans and a wealthy businessman Pedro Pascal sensational

Who says no? Not me. Oh, man. Really excited about that. Really, really excited for that. So there's bright days ahead, hopefully, for Pedro Pascal's fans. But hopefully this taught him something about, you know... Because the thing about everyone involved in this, I'm like, how do you say no to Gladiator 2? Ridley Scott is like, I want you on Gladiator 2. How do you say no? And probably you're not filled with regrets, even though it took a gajillion years to film. But, you know, you were...

out traveling the world, having adventures, getting to know the other people in your cast, having a good time, hopefully. But like, just because the, the like sort of brightest, the juiciest fruit is being offered to you. Is that really what you, Pedro Pascal should take is the question I have to ask. Okay. Paul Meskel. Yeah. I'm personally outraged by the narrative coming out of this film that Paul Meskel is quote, not a movie star.

Is this a thing? That's absurd. Yes. Oh, my God. They were like, oh, they took him from his little indies and they put him in this big movie and he couldn't handle it and he's not – he just doesn't have capital I-it. Oh, my God. No one has ever had more capital I-it than Paul Meskel. What? So here's an email we got from a listener that I thought was really –

Interesting. Our listener Howard wrote,

Meskel's more understated style, while effective in certain contexts, pales in the shadow of Washington's dominating persona, which leaves Meskel outmatched in their shared scenes. And Howard's email was much longer and Howard's point was not, Paul Meskel's not a movie star. It was just sort of speaking to what Meskel is best deployed to do and what he is asked to do here. And I would say that, like, I would agree with Howard and I would say that's why

Paul's scenes with Ravi, who is the slave-turned-arena medic, were among my favorites of the film. These are very quiet, close-connected moments for this character. And I would also, I, Joanna Robbins, would also say, asking Paul Metz, I don't know whose idea was it. Was it Paul's idea? Was it Ridley's idea? I don't know who said this. But someone said, Paul, can you do a Russell Crowe impression?

And Paul said, I guess. And he did it and it sucked. It sucked because it just wasn't him. And that, you know, obviously actors should be chameleonic and be able to do a bunch of different stuff. But it was so clearly him trying to do Russell Crowe's Australian through the strain of English via Rome Empire vowel sounds. Yeah.

That just felt like an added distraction, taking him away from being able to give us a performance. Whether or not Paul Mesko can play like a big commanding general leader of men sort of character, I'm not counting that out, actually, but not like this, I would say. Not in what he was asked to do here. And keeping us from the juice from what he's so undeniably great at. What do you want to say about that, Mallory?

So I think this is one of the areas where I'm actually higher on the movie than a lot of people are. Like, I did not think that this was a poor performance. I thought there were certainly things that were odd about it, but I think I find him...

so mesmerizing and captivating genuinely all the time. Like, this is not a bit about how hot he is, though. Obviously, also, that is true. I just think he has, like, an incredible screen presence and it's difficult for many reasons to take your eyes off of him when he's performing. I...

I think your crow cosplay point is a really good one. I think once again, for me, this was less about the performance and more about what the material was asking the performer to do because, okay, let's take the reluctant leader part of it. The fact that he is an internal, understated, gentle performer is

I'm like, lean into that more. That actually is interesting and could have really worked for where we're supposed to find this character. Why should the fact that he is gifted on the battlefield mean that he has to be like a rallying speechifier by the end of the movie necessarily? Like, it actually doesn't make sense to me. And I think it was less, the issue to me was less that he felt slightly outspoken

out of sync with the place he maybe is supposed to be in the movie and more that by the end of the movie, he's making a speech to two armies and convincing them to be one. And... That's not the only one. He also makes this, like, rallying speech to the gladiators as well. Yeah. That one as well. Yeah. Like, that was...

We talked about that on Big Pick because Chris invoked my all-time favorite Raven, Ed Reed, who is famous for his pregame and halftime speeches in the tunnel to get everybody to run out and take the field in charge. And Chris's point, which I'm probably badly paraphrasing, but was in essence like,

Maximus was the goat at doing that. And so how can we think that Lucius's version of that is as good? And my response to that was, why is Lucius doing that at all? Like, it's not helpful for me to... Do you have thoughts on Ed Reed? Quick sidebar.

Quick sidebar. Your pal and mine, Rahm Mahoney, made fun of me the other week for saying Tuesday morning quarterback on Prestige. And I was like, I felt so clearly making a joke. I know that it's Monday morning quarterbacking. We are Monday morning. So I'm going to Monday morning quarterback this plotline. Why wouldn't you have something like...

There have been stories told like this before where you have someone who's a leader, but someone else who's the mouth. You know what I mean? You could have a character who gives... I'm thinking this is a dumb example, but I'm thinking of like Paul Bettany in A Knight's Tale or whatever. You know what I mean? Like you have your mouth, your speechifier, and then you've got your leader that everyone admires and looks up to. And you don't have to be...

someone who gives big speeches in order to be someone that people follow. If you need a speech, you could cast someone who is like more loquacious in that way. And so like, give us someone who is like, so laconic the way that this character is and then have him. That's not who Maximus is like, you know, he's, he's reserved in many instances, but he's like, he he's,

constantly sort of chatting it up with people in a way that like Lucius is not interested in doing. And so for him to then like pour himself into this mold of, you know, fucking,

coach tailoring his way through the end of the movie is just not working. So yeah, like I would say now maybe this has something to do with the fact that this movie came out when I was early in my high school, uh, the beginning of high school. And so, you know, I, I saw this movie and then shared the, the, the quoting of the movie with a lot of, um,

you know, 14, 15, 16-year-old dudes who thought, like, what we do in life echoes in eternity and I will have my vengeance in this life or in the next were, like, the two coolest things that you could possibly say out loud. And I can't say I disagreed. There's just...

This is another example, then, of where if you're going for the same thing, it's going to feel like a pale imitation unless you nail it, unless you can reach those highs. Yeah. Then where we are, death is not, is not going to measure up, right? It's like, well, if this is where death was, actually, was trying to say that that was the same as, like, I will have my vengeance, which it just wasn't. It also just doesn't make a ton of sense. It's just like, yeah, I just...

I'm sorry. Paul, I love you. I love you so much. I'm so excited. Is there anyone who's around Paul's age? You were compelled by Paul than a lot of us were. Yeah, I did not leave the movie thinking he was miscast or shouldn't have been in the film, genuinely. I think he was, and I love him. And I want the world for him, and I also think that he can do massive movies. I just don't think he should be in this role. Paul is also, might be...

It's sort of like similar... I mean, but Brad Pitt could do this. But there are some...

who are so leading character coded, but actually what they're more suited to are supporting characters or just at the very least, like more off kilter leading characters than you're like sort of standard cookie cutter. I, I'm a leader of men sort of thing. And I think that that is like what I hope for Paul in his future, that he continues to pursue like sort of off kilter stuff because no one does it like he does it. Um,

In terms of what Paul has on the horizon, first I and then you had an absolute emotional breakdown when we found out about an upcoming Paul Meskel movie. I did not know this until you told me and I ceased to be able to breathe. I didn't know it until I was putting these notes together. And I also, we are two mere ghosts now recording a podcast together. Yeah.

Paul Meskel has shot a movie called The History of Sound, a movie set in the early 1900s about two folk singers in love. One of those singers is played by Paul Meskel. The other is played by Josh O'Connor.

Will there be churros involved? I don't know, but I found images of them on the set and they're dressed in like flat caps and button down vests and Paul's character has glasses and it's just a lot going on and I am very excited about it. Anything you want to care to comment on this? How will the internet survive? How will any of us live? How will we?

Okay. He's also doing Hamnet based on the book Hamnet. So he's playing a good old Billy Shakespeare for Chloe Shaw. That's a fun choice. And then he's doing Marilee. We roll along. We're all going to die before that movie comes out, but someday someone will be able to enjoy Richard Linklater's Marilee roll along, which he's filming over decades and decades. And then he is reportedly considering reuniting with Ridley Scott for a film called dog stars. And I say simply, no, I would just say no.

maybe don't do that paul would be my thought and feeling on the subject so um yeah and last but not least before we get into um wicked i've been spending i know that you and sean and chris talked about this on the big pic um i have spent the last couple weeks on trial by content watching denzel washington films denzel washington is just sort of astounding

in this movie. There's a great... God tear. There's a great interview. His press tour has been on the Harrison Ford level of don't give a fuckery and it's been wonderful. Overall, a fantastic press tour. Yeah. Just for... It's hard for me to complain about how the volume of Paul Meskel content on my Instagram currently, honestly. And Joan Fred had been so charming in it too and stuff like that. But like...

There's one interview where it's like Paul and Denzel are paired together and they're asking questions. Like they've been given questions to ask of each other. And Paul asks him, is there a movie, either that you were in or whatever, is there a movie that you wish you could have been the lead in? And Denzel's like, I'm the lead in every movie I've been in.

It's true. It's true. So true. And it is especially true here. I love that he took this role. Obviously there are some absolutely killer, iconic Denzel villain roles, though, like percentage wise in his career, it's not, you know, it's, it's a tiny percentage of the roles he's placed. Usually he's the big damn hero, but occasionally he gets to do the villain and he does such a good job and he is so good heroically.

And it's such a weird Denzel performance in a way that is just so delightful. He is, um, deliciously ambitious and, and, and grasping, um, and, uh,

you know, enjoys all the appetites of life. There was like some interviewer who was asking him if he was like, he have a line about like, you know, guys are girls is your character bisexual. And he's like, I think you'd fuck anything. Genuinely anything. You need anything. You would fuck anything. Um,

you know so like he's walking around he's like you know and denzel has done a million different shakespeare roles so like he knows his way around a draped toga like you know he is he has done caesar he has done all sorts of stuff and then he uh and then the fight scene at the end like denzel's been boxing his whole life so it actually there's a moment where he goes into the water i was like on what planet am i supposed to believe

that denzel bless him like in his advanced years has any chance up against freaking lucius varinas so like what are you talking about here and then i watched the fight i was like actually there's just like a scrappiness to him and obviously yeah he's been like a fighter his whole life that i was just sort of like actually this is a show that i would pay to watch um

So what do you want to say about Denzel? Any favorite moments, favorite looks, favorite lines that you want to identify from this incredible Denzel performance? He was astonishing. Completely exquisite in every respect and immensely entertaining. I did love that final fight. In general, the more intimate one-on-one fights in the film were my favorite with love and respect to the baboons and the rhino and the sharks and all of the...

Very grand set pieces. All love to the shark. Peace and love to the shark. A lot of great content on the internet the last few days about whether the sharks should have been there. But...

Yeah. The, the like private party where Lucius is first trotted out to, to fight one-on-one and they're throwing each other into the cakes and the, the various food displays. And, uh, you know, we're building up toward, toward quoting Virgil. Um, that was amazing. And then I thought the final fight between Macroness and Lucius was really, really great. So I loved that. Um,

I don't know why, but I think one of my favorite moments was when he just sawed off Gaeta's head. By then, we're dialed into understanding that he's improvising, he's adapting, he is working to acquire and accrue power and control, and he is embarking upon this great puppeteering act, and everybody, including the emperors, are his playthings.

And even still, when he kind of appears in the background and reaches in, I'm like, oh, is he? What might he do? Might he stop? Might he say, let's do this in a more private space? Might he make one more play to see if he can control? Nope, just like he's hacking through a Thanksgiving turkey. That was amazing. I thought that the this is my house moment was amazing.

Pantheon shit. That was so funny and so good. And I particularly loved after he was named second console, fine. Fine. This is appointment is first console and then genuinely great movie. I'm like that. That's what the whole movie should have been like moments like that. That just would have been unbelievable. Correct. Um,

I loved watching how he operated in that room because he goes within the span of a moment from being...

Somebody who has to like watch this syphilis addled power mad dipshit say stupid things out loud and have everybody like pretend to nod along into then commanding absolute adherence in a second as soon as the emperor leaves. And that was like amazing to watch. And then as an actor has to get a disembodied head out of a bag and sort of. Yeah.

turn it around the room. In terms of Denzel Washington, the actor, I have to say that the sequence where he lets First Counsel Dondas just crawl all over him back and forth between him and Fred as he's talking to him was top tier. I was like, how did nobody break in? I mean, sure, they did break in the scene, but I was just like, Denzel's just letting a monkey crawl all over him. It was fantastic. When he says, politics sucks,

Yeah, that's great. No, no, it's all the stuff like him fucking around with those rings, all the dandying sort of stuff, the peacocking. And then the sequence, that's the thing about

What he does so well is he's just like, he's so over the top and florid and all this other stuff like that. And then there's just like that genuine menace that's right there. Not even always under the surface, but it's just like right there. And then there's the sequence when he's talking about the slave brand on him and like Marcus Aurelius and all this other stuff. Like, yeah, that is.

That's the movie. That's a great movie. Oh, yeah. It's just buried inside some other stuff that's also here. Yeah. And I also loved watching just the quiet glances. Watching him observe other characters. The fact that he figures out who Lucius is before his own mother figures out who he is because his power of observation is so supreme. It helps us believe and accept that he could...

this level of power this quickly, that he could do this thing. I agree. Because we know he's like watching and learning and studying and clocking. I said this on Big Pic, but I was like, this reminds me of how Joanna and I talk about Sauron. Yeah.

Like the great observer and the great improviser. Always ready to pivot to like whatever the circumstance requires in a given moment. And so then at the end, when that doesn't work out for him, when you realize that if all you're doing in real time is pivoting on the fly, the thing you never earn is real loyalty. And so the army that followed him, that rode out with him is not willing to step

actually stand up for him. That was really all, I thought, quite interesting. But I also just wanted to know what was the plan because he rides out as if he's just trying to leave. Again, the great improviser. I like that. But like, well...

the golden cloak billowing behind him looked great, whatever. But what was your plan? You knew that there was an army marching this way. You knew that you would send an army much. So you go, you ride to the middle of the battlefield with no, like, cause he didn't write out to be like, follow me, men. Let's, you know, like he didn't do any of that. It was bizarre. Okay.

That's gladiator too. Yeah. A movie that we saw strange film. Yeah. Quite entertaining. Very perplexing. Yeah. That I would watch the Denzel only cut of any day of the week. Denzel and Dondas. The two stars of this movie. Oh man. That takes us over to Wicked. Yes. All right.

quick facts, wicked part one based on the stage musical by Winnie Holtzman and Steven Schwartz, which was in turn an adaptation of the much racier, seriously, don't give it to a small child, 1995 Gregory Maguire novel, which is itself, of course, a retelling of L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. Uh,

What is our relationship to this strain of storytelling? Other than the embarrassing story I already told about how I used to dress up as Dorothy to watch The Wizard of Oz when I was a child. That's not embarrassing. I find it quite touching. And I was thinking of you and your little outfit while watching this. It warmed my heart. A little basket. A little stuff photo. I felt like you were just taking me down the layers in Inception. I know.

explaining all that amazing stuff. I saw Wicked in the spring of 2007 in the West End in London. London. And I can't, when I tell you

that I remembered very little of it. It is not a comment on the quality of my theater-going experience or of the production, more just on my increasingly rotting mind. But when I studied abroad, my best self... Should we podcast forever in our ongoing mutual decrepitude? Should we just podcast until there's nothing left of our lives? Absolutely. I would love that. Wonderful. I mean, I think that's what we're doing right now. Correct.

My best buddy, Allison, and I studied abroad together. We saw as many plays as we could while we were in London. And this was one of the old, like, go-get-same-day-discounted-student-tickets moves for us. By the way, a really good move to pull in London. Like, London, you can get, like, dirt cheap same-day tickets. Oh, my God. Yeah, we saw a lot of stuff that way. And it was amazing. I remember absolutely loving it, even though I couldn't have been as recently as...

three days ago before I saw the movie told you much about the plot. I remember thinking it was great. And then of course, I recall what a sensation this was on Broadway and just across the globe and the songs and the performers, how they, it became just like

inescapable in a good way, in a cool way. It was so clear that it was something that had really resonated with people and that people loved. Um, overall, I am very fond of the wizard of Oz as we've recently discussed on our Agatha pods. I, uh, always liked wizard of Oz when I was a kid, but like many others, this is not a unique tale. Like many other younger children was legitimately afraid of the flying monkey. So I had to really confront that when seeing wicked, but, um,

Yeah, and I have not read the book, but now after hearing how chock full of sex it is, maybe I'll give it a go. It's not just sex. It's also – it's like, yes, there's like a very racy, like baby oil sex scene sort of situation in Gregory Maguire's Wicked, which I read probably too young. I don't know. I was like probably like – I read it when it came out, so I was like – I think I was like 14 or so. Yeah.

But there's also, it's just like very densely political as well. It's just like, it's just like way more mature than the stage show, which is, I like both.

and they're two different things and i did want to shout out that gregory mcguire this idea of like sean texted me over the weekend he's like i thought i was talking in front of my someone i know about who compared wicked sort of unflatteringly to uh the story of emperor palpatine but what if he was bullied as a kid or something like that and i was like i mean don't give like so many ideas first of all

Secondly... Somehow Palpatine returned. That sounds like someone who hasn't seen Act 2 of this show. I was like, I'm about to sound like an asshole, but it sounds like someone who hasn't seen Act 2 of this show. That's fine. But I was like, this idea of what if we took the villain and told the story from their point of view and it's a more...

complicated story than you knew is a little like worn threadbare at this point in our sort of IP retread culture. But when Gregory Maguire did it in the mid-90s, he wasn't the first to do it, but he really popularized it. He wrote books like Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister and Mirror Mirror, all of which I read after that, and then a whole bunch of other Oz books. But he really was at the vanguard of

um, this concept of, of taking an extremely popular, uh, story, you know, and telling it from a different, uh, point of view. And, um, obviously again, not the first, um, and then the stage show, I, um,

one of the saddest moments in the life of a music i'm a little too old to have been part of like wicked mania if you're talking about like do you joanna robinson know every single word to the broadway recording of rent yes i do because i was the exact right age for that but for wicked i'm just like ever so slightly i wasn't like quite in the mania phase for that but they open they they

tried out Wicked in San Francisco before they took it to Broadway. So Chris, uh, Kristen Chenoweth and Edie Menzel and Norbert Leo Butz and the rest of them performed Wicked. I think it was first in SF or it was either like first in like Toronto and then SF or something like that, but like very early on in San Francisco. And, uh,

I'm pretty sure my parents went and I'm pretty sure I didn't get to go because I think I forgot I said I would babysit that night. And I think they taught me a lesson about responsibility and said, you don't get to go to Wicked because you said you would babysit and you forgot to cancel and now you have to go babysit. That's my memory. It's possible that that's not exactly what happened because of the aforementioned decrepitude. But I do know that there was an opportunity for me to see Wicked in San Francisco before I went to Broadway and I did not go.

go. Oh, man. But it's a stage show that I like, that I think is wonderful, and I really understand its place in musical theater history. It is not my fondest, most beloved story, personally. I love Wizard of Oz. I love this world. I think this is a really...

and emotional story with a lot of like great banger songs. This film directed by John M2, who did Crazy Rich Asians and In the Heights, one of which I really liked, one of which I didn't so much, and written by the aforementioned Winnie Holtzman and Dana Fox. Unlike Gladiator, which underperformed, this overperformed, this crushed at the box office. People are,

really, really liking this movie. As you like to say, it's a smashola. It is a smash-a-roo, baby! There was a lot, I think part of it is there was, there's both the people who are rabid for Wicked and we're going to go see this regardless. Then there's also this word of mouth of like, there were these lowered expectations because people didn't love the trailers or they felt one way or another about the press tour or whatever it is. And then they're just hearing from people that it's like, no, actually, this is

And so people are going in droves to see this movie. Critics are mostly liking it. Audiences are really liking it. And I expect, I mean, we're headed into a holiday week. I expect it has, it had a big opening and I think it's just going to get bigger and bigger. We're not going to see like a massive drop off or anything like that.

Anecdotally, like, so I saw a press screening last week and then I went again this weekend. You, last minute, you're such a champ. Last minute, the people, the listeners of this podcast were clamoring for us to cover Wicked. Mallory had no place to see Wicked this weekend and she scrambled the jets and on the fly got a ticket to see Wicked. But Mallory, how easy was it for you to get a last minute, unlike a theater ticket in London? How easy was it for you to get a same day ticket for Wicked in Los Angeles, California? Yeah.

I'm no longer eligible for this student experience. So I was texting you and Stephen Arjuna about this in real time because my move is often like, you know, if we get to, if we screen something amazing, great. If I have a chance to see it a second time or if I'm only seeing it, you know, once before we pot over the weekend, I love a Saturday morning movie or like a Saturday midday movie, you know, not a huge crowd. I can choose my seed, et cetera. Great. Okay.

I mean this sincerely. This is not an exaggeration. I have never... I've lived in LA for 12 years, I think. God, have I lived in LA for 12 years? Is that right? 11 years? More than 10. I'll figure out later if it's 11 or 12, but more than a decade. And I have never had this hard of a time getting a same-day movie ticket, ever. And I couldn't think of anything close. Like,

Granted, I was looking Saturday morning to go on Saturday, but I had to check... You didn't... You didn't Barbenheim. I know you didn't Barbie. Did you open theater? You did neither. No, because that was when Halo had his surgery, so I wasn't going out to... I didn't see either of them in the theater. So that might have been, like, the equivalent. I assume it was the equivalent, certainly for Barbie on opening weekend. But it was...

It was impossible for me to find two seats next to each other at any of the showings I checked. Absolutely impossible for Saturday night and close to impossible for Saturday afternoon, which rather than frustrating me, got me so excited because I was like, oh my God, people cannot wait to see this movie. So I finally found a showing that I was able to get into. I went to the theater and

The line was out the fucking door to get in, like to scan the ticket out the door. Yeah. Had I properly budgeted my time to account for this eventuality? I had not. Was I like, I have to make a choice now after scanning my ticket and getting in between using the bathroom before the movie and getting all of the snacks that I know I need for a three hour movie? Yes. What choice did I make?

snacks. Obviously. I've never seen a line this long for the concession stand at a theater in LA. It took 25 minutes. That's not a knock on everybody who was working very hard. It's just a commentary on how long the lines were and how many people were there. It was mobbed. I texted a

Chris and a couple and Juliet and Sean after. And Chris was like, he had gone to see a different movie on Friday night, but was like, I couldn't get a parking spot at the theater. Yeah. Like it was a scene and people were dressed up and people were getting their custom, you know, soda cups and popcorn buckets. And it was like, this is amazing. And then very shortly after getting back from seeing the movie, and we'll talk about what we actually thought about the movie in a second, but just in terms of like the kind of craze around it. Yeah.

I had all these texts from my friends who I don't think I had any, had any idea I was seeing the movie, but just like had seen the movie and were so excited about having seen the movie. And some of them took their kids and some of them went on their own. It was just like, people were overjoyed to go to the theater and watch a thing together. And like, that's fucking awesome. It was so exciting to see how excited other people were. Um, did a young teen throw a piece of food at my head?

yes what but one piece of food and why only one i couldn't tell you i think you were singing along to the song sorry no but i are if we if you're if you want to talk about um uh that that budding news story i'm happy i'm happy to i don't know the two and two of the two of the tweens sitting behind me threw something in my head and i turned and i was like and one of them was like

trying very hard not to make eye contact and the other one like couldn't help but laugh and I was like you know what everyone's just having fun at the movie I'm just gonna turn back around and keep eating my popcorn and my Reese's and my Sour Patch Watermelons etc etc etc um so yeah it was just like an absolutely packed house everywhere across the city all weekend and that's that's cool what was your what was your experience like seeing it um for a second time

Out with the masses. Yeah. So I saw the press here that I went to was like a combination press and fan event. They had had like a drag brunch beforehand. So there were like a bunch of people in like impeccable drag at the press event that I went to. So like delightful top tier on Sunday at the Grand Lake Theater in Oakland. I went with my friend Amy. It was it's funny because like to your point,

you know, I'm always trying to get people up here to go see movies with me. And there's like, there's like a small crew that I can rely on that will like go see me. But like, you know, increasingly people just don't want to go to the cinema. It's like a whole thing. You can read a million news stories about it. Um,

sometimes films come out like Barbie, like doing two, like whatever, where like the people who don't like to go see movies tell me they went to the movies. And I'm just like, it's my like bellwether. It's how I know that like, you know, something's happening. Um, so yeah, a friend of mine was like, can we see wicked? I was like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't know. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We can see wicked. Um, and, uh, we went to the grand lake theater three o'clock in the afternoon on a Sunday. Uh,

packed to the rafters. Grand Lake Theater is one of those old movie palaces, so the concession stand, there's a big sweeping staircase behind the concession stand. The line was all the way up the stairs, up into the second floor, wrapped around. It was just absolutely bananas. And then...

Yeah, there was like a bunch of kids, you know, like families there with young kids. And there was, we didn't hear, I didn't hear any, anyone singing along to the movie. But we were slightly on the side, so it's possible that like people in the middle were singing along. I did hear a few like hushes from people. So it's possible that they were hushing singer-alongers. But there were massive applause.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Gasps. Just after the end of songs, people were just breaking out in riotous applause. And again, like, even having seen, like, Barbie and had such a great, I loved going to see Barbie, like, multiple times in the theater. Even as we did, you know, seeing, like, Dune 2 and having, like, an incredible time watching Dune 2 multiple times in the theater and stuff like that.

This is different. And I was talking to a friend of mine who went to go see it. She was like, there was a, she saw it. She was like, there was a little girl's birthday party behind me. Like there was a row of little girls who were there for someone's birthday party to see wicked. And she was talking about,

I was like, yeah, I was like, we had seen Barbie in the same theater. I was like, it's like sort of like when we saw Barbie and she was like, no, she was like, because people were coming into this already loving it. And so they were just watching this celebration of something that they already loved so much. So it's this sort of like extra level of excitement and anticipation and, and knowing when to get excited about something. And they're,

If you want to hear my film critic takes on this, I'm sure I will be talking to Sean about this in some capacity later on in the sort of, like, Oscar race conversation. I am not, like... I don't think Wicked is, like, a perfect film. And I have a lot of criticisms of it. I think the... You think it's too short, right? You think it should have been longer? Yes. And, like...

The color should have been duller. No, like I think that, I think the experience of watching it with like people, and it's like one of those things that like also like tests your image. Okay. Someone throwing stuff at you. Just like,

kids fidgeting, people getting up to go to the bathroom. There's like a whole bunch of like humanity that you have to navigate inside of this experience, but it's all worth it for the communal feeling of we're all watching and enjoying this story together, you know? It's not like you'll take a piece of food hucked at your head or I will take like

there was someone down the aisle who did not have like full control of when or how they said things. And so they were just like, there was a running commentary and I was just sort of like, okay, that's all part of what we're experiencing. There was a woman behind me who was, I think, literally eating cellophane. Like, I don't know how to explain how long the rapper sound happened through the whole thing.

the whole movie. We're like two hours in and it's still just like Crinkle City back there. I don't understand. Oh my God. There was like two of the world's biggest Bridgerton fans were behind me. So every time Johnny Bailey was on the screen, they were just like, oh my God. So, you know, it was just like, it was so... Who among us? I get it. That was so... Again, I don't think it's a perfect film, but a 10 out of 10...

like movie viewing experience. Totally. And I'm so happy it exists and I'm so happy so many people are delighted by seeing it. So I completely agree. That is, yeah. Um, that's like essentially anything you want to say about the movie itself. I'm going to, you know what? I had to cry.

had a great time watching this movie. I don't know why I'm saying honestly like it's a surprise. The fact that I was not originally planning to see the movie this weekend had nothing to do with interest, just that it was not originally on our cover slate and I am under water with a couple other things right now. You deserved this break. You deserved this break. I welcomed it when it popped up and it was not only was it a really fun communal experience, but

I thought this movie was good. Like I really had fun with the movie and I had a, uh, very powerful emotional response to multiple parts of the story, which again, I was like, I am familiar with the story. I have seen this play. I, it was kind of like pulling some of it back up for me from the deep recesses of my adult mind. Um,

And I thought the performances were, the lead performances, I mean, all of the performances, but the lead performances were unbelievable. Just unbelievable. And I also thought that if you are going to do a part one, part two, and each of the parts is going to be very long, you really have to nail the break. Not every recent part one and part two has done this, as we have chronicled on other podcasts. They crushed it. Like, building up toward...

defying when defying gravity hit i was like a jaw on the floor like it was just incredible it really was amazing and like breathtaking and it i left then not thinking about boy that was two hours and 40 minutes that's a long time at the movie as you know i'm in general rarely faced by a junkie runtime um though i recognize that's not the case for for uh for many people um

I was just like, man, I can't wait for part two. Like they, they left us where they needed to, to, to bring us back for more. That's not something. Okay. So like our pal shop fantasy is like,

pretty out on wicked and like pretty upset by how many people are enjoying wicked so i'm in this like ongoing conversation with him but he loves when people go to the movies and get excited about movies so he's he can't he can't reject it in full but like he and and my pal katie rich and i have been like talking about this idea of like about like wicked as a best picture contender that's like a whole other conversation but like this i he you know one of his points was this idea of like

it's a part one that ends on a cliffhanger. Like, how can that be like sort of the best picture of the year or something like that? And I was like, it ends on defying gravity. Like it ends on defying gravity, which is of course the stage play also ends the first act on defying gravity. But I was just sort of like, that's not going to leave you feeling like,

bereft as you, and it might make you feel impatient for part two, which we are getting a year. We already know what they've already shot it. We're getting in a year from now, you know, like it might leave you impatient or, or filled with anticipation, but like, it's not going to leave you feeling like you were robbed of the story. Or confused. Like we, we agree on, uh, we both think that Dune part one and Dune part two, uh,

are masterpieces. Yeah. Like, we love both of those movies. So to be clear, that is like our feeling about them. But...

there was a massive narrative even though we did not feel this way about it and i think that a lot of that was because we brought our book knowledge to it and it's like well wait no right this is what this is all that that's this is all coming um there was a massive like wait what and some of that was that it was not totally apparent and clear that there was going to be a part one and part two to everybody and also some of it was where the movie ended there's just not a

Now, I do not think Wicked is as good of a movie as Dune, to be clear. But, like, there's just no equivalent of the, like, oh, wait, what? Well, there's also... At the end. And Wicked learn, I think, from that sort of Dune mild debacle. And put part one at the bottom, like, when Wicked comes across the screen. It's presented clearly as, like, part one, part two. Exactly. Yeah. All right, let's talk about some of the big damn themes before we get back to just, like, gushing about Ariana and Cynthia. So...

I don't know. I just thought I would hit a few of these things quickly. Again, we're not doing like a deep, deep dive into this, but like this idea of reputation slash propaganda, which of course, and like also Wicked is not like the most subtle story that you've ever seen. But like this idea that we've talked about so often with some of our favorite stories, because I was thinking a lot about like Agatha, obviously coming off of like one Wicked witch into the next, obviously Agatha literally dressed as,

um, the wicked witch of the West in, in an episode of Agatha all along, or the conversations that we've had about Loki. Um, this idea, this is a, in, in a 2008 interview, Gregor McGuire, Gregor McGuire, who wrote wicked, uh, in the first place said quote about like what inspired him to write it. He said, quote, if everyone was always calling you a bad name,

How much of that would you internalize? How much of that would you say? All right, go ahead. I'll be everything that you call me because I have no capacity to change your minds anyway. So why bother by whose standards should I live? That's sort of like his inspo for this. So like this idea that like Elphaba in this story is someone who is, you know, considered hideous, a monster othered, whatever her whole life is.

but then also, and again, I mean, this, a lot of this comes back to Cynthia's performance, but at the end of the film, when we hear Madame Morrible, when, when Madame Morrible and the wizard scramble the jets immediately on the propaganda machine, like instantly get on the mic with their narrative. And Madame Morrible says, you know, this idea about this outer manifestation of her inner wickedness. Um, and, um,

Cynthia Elphaba's face as she absorbs this thing she always knew that people thought about her. However hard she's tried to be good and kind and thoughtful and giving in her life for this to now be not just like a thing people whisper, but like narrative projected, amplified across all the land. And then there's no corner of the land that she can go to where this is not

you know, the narrative of her very existence. I found that really compelling. And again, once again, it comes down a lot to these individual performances because again, this is not, it's not, it's, it's a boiled down musical of, of a, of a complicated story. So it's not trying to try to be nuanced at all.

But the complex emotionality that I felt from this performance around this moment just really, really rocked me. I cried a couple times. I cried a couple times the first time I watched it. And then I cried again, but like less, but still cried the same moment. So that's when you know that those are like really hitting. Yeah. What do you want to say about this idea of like the Loki, Agatha sort of thread through of this, you know, call me a monster. I'll be your monster, you know, sort of thing.

Yeah, I mean, Agatha was extremely top of mind for me watching this. I think obviously in part because we just so recently covered it. And it's very fresh. But also because this was such a central theme for us that we really focused on when trying to interrogate and understand how Agatha had become this person and why. And, you know, we were so...

floored and horrified to confront, mild spoilers for Agatha here, in the fifth episode, the fact that Agatha's own mother, even though we had seen history with them in WandaVision, just was like, I should have...

Gosh, I should have killed you from the start. Yeah. You were evil from the start. And the ease with which her mother said that in plain view of other people to Agatha, et cetera. And it's like, well, how could you ever be anything but evil?

that if everybody already thinks you are that. And also the other parallel was this question of control with your power and how the source of your power is not something for Agatha at certain points in the story, for Elfie in part one here, that you are able to command in full and how that is, of course, scary to other people, but equally scary to you. And then the fact that

I love the way you're putting it about like, you know, activating that propaganda machine. The fact that the characters who are doing that were sources of protection and hope previously makes it all the fowler, right? Like, okay, I have gone... Elphaba, we've seen from the moment Elphaba's born, like her father's rejection and judgment. We see a slightly older but still young Elphaba, um,

Have to face the mockery of other children. The cruelty of children is known by all, as George R. R. Martin likes to say. And that moment then when Elphaba's power sprouts out of her at Shiz and Madame Morrible is like...

I will teach you come study with me, come learn your special. The thing you can do is amazing. Let's nurture it intended and cultivated, and you should be proud and you're unique and you're special. And this is a gift. Um, and then of course that launches into one of the many great musical numbers. Like this, this thing that I can do is like, is it possible to this thing that I always thought was horrible is actually like amazing. And that's incredible. Right. And very empowering. Um, and taps into like one of the central themes of the story. Um,

And that's part of what's beautiful about the budding friendship between Glinda and Elphaba is like actually genuinely watching the initial judgment and prejudice turn into appreciation and respect and love. Yeah.

And so then like when Madame Morrible is like, actually, you're just a tool and a pawn and I just wanted to use you. And then, you know, to see that Elphaba was so desperate to seek the wizard, because again, that would unlock some like possibility and purpose. That's where Loki was on my mind too. Not just the like, people tell you you're going to be a monster, be a monster, but the idea of purpose, right? Of terrible purpose. And like,

for the wizard and we are primed as people familiar with Oz to expect this, of course, but still to be like confronted with that disappointment, it's just so harrowing and it's just so sad. And like, then also you have the more intimate and close to home versions of that. Like it's her father right away, but like to watch with Nessa Rose, you know, the way that we are expecting the devotion to be mutual and full. And it's like,

we start to realize that it's going to be a little bit different maybe than what we're anticipating. And that's, that's feels very true to life, but also very sad. So it's just, even though it's such a like candy coated, um, boisterous affair, it's really heavy in a way that like, um,

Uh, I think a lot of people, you understand, of course, why so many people love the story because those themes of like judgment and prejudice and belonging and identity and sense of self and acceptance and empowerment and how those things build to each other, but also then can kind of like pull the pull down. Um,

It's like, you know, whether or not you're capable of sorcery or in Oz, like, there's something there you can latch on to and relate to. So I thought that was all really, really lovely. I think also something that I've been really ruminating on, watching these scenes, like, popular obviously being one of the most famous songs on the show, but, like, this question of, like, popularity or popularity.

group think or when you take a stand to defend people and when you don't and how it's this, it's this pervasive atmosphere of fear that,

An uncertainty. And like, you know, especially, you know, despite the fact that Johnny Bailey is like, I don't know, in his late thirties, we're all, these are all supposed to be teenagers going to university. And like, you know, like Nessa Rose, a character that frustrates me so much. Cause I'm like, where is your goddamn loyalty to your sister? But also like, she's someone who's just so afraid herself. Like she's so afraid. And so I can have empathy. I have frustration for an empathy for these care, like,

and group thinking and popularity and all that sort of stuff is like corrosive and toxic, but it's also just like so human to be like so uncertain and so afraid to be different and, and lonely and, you know, all this sort of stuff like that. So, um, also I was thinking about, um, something that, that Belinda says at the beginning of the movie when she's,

you know, speaking out to the munchkins and she's talking about, are people born like, you know, to paraphrase William Shakespeare, people born wicked or do they have wickedness thrust upon them? Um, I was thinking about our guy Sauron, like nothing is evil in the beginning. Right. You know what I mean? This idea of like, yeah. Okay. Um, and then the, like this idea of story, the power of story, one of our favorite, what's more important than story. I just have to add to that. Well, Dinklage is here. Dinklage joins the chat. Um, uh,

Stephen Schwartz, who wrote the music and lyrics for Wicked, also wrote this incredibly challenging, incredibly important musical called Pippin. He also wrote Godspell. I don't like Godspell. But Pippin is incredibly challenging to watch. But it's about a troupe of actors. They're basically trying to create an epic story using this young man they find. They're like, you're in a story. You're the hero. And how they want that story to end...

This is weird to explain. They want that story to end. They want him to light himself on fire as this grand finale for the entertainment of the audience. And he rejects that and goes and finds a quieter, less heroic, but quieter life of

you know, hopefully happiness. And the, and the players are so frustrated because like the story demands, the story is hungry and the story demands this act of sacrifice or this big spectacle or et cetera, et cetera. And I was just thinking about that a lot in terms of like,

This idea of the wizard as, you know, obviously a fraud and a shyster from the instance that L Frank bomb conceived him, but like, yeah, as someone who understands story as something to feed people, you know, and, and he says it quite plainly in terms of like people, you know, give them an enemy or someone to hate, but,

But just the, again, that propaganda machine whirring into place is, and then opening the story at the end of the story, when we see the, like the literal propaganda posters of Elphaba, the effigy of her on fire, all this sort of thing is like, what does that, what does that,

munchkin mob demand of the story of this, of this world that they live in and how does that make them easier to control is such a fascinating part. And I, you know, something I think that has been on Stephen Schwartz's mind, like his entire time of creating story himself, just sort of like,

The seductive power of story, the just absolute stranglehold that story can have on us and how you always have to be wondering. This takes me back to Into the Woods, but how you always have to be asking yourself, who's telling this story? We don't like the way you've been telling it. Who's been telling this story? And what is their- Who is fueling the myth and why? What is their agenda? Yeah. There's something-

Sidebar, but it's something that we thought about a lot when we talked about when we were writing our book on the MCU and the question was constantly, the question I was constantly asking was like, who's in control? Who's in control of this storytelling machine? Thank you so much. Who's in control of this storytelling machine? Because that is such a powerful weapon to have. And I'm not, that's like your most cynical take on the MCU or any kind of storytelling apparatus, but it's just sort of like,

These are such important myths that we consume. And so the person who decides what it means to be the hero of those myths decides what we grow up thinking about who gets to be hero in this world. And so like, you can say something sort of empty and false, like representation matters. It does. But like, that sounds kind of empty at this point, people say it this way or that way, but like these people,

marvel movies people can like dismiss them they matter they root in us these myths root in us people are just still telling versions of wizard of oz because that is like elfrid bomb tapped into the root of a myth that would captivate us for a hundred of years uh so yeah power of story anything you want to say on the idea of the power of story about your myth

Oh, I, uh, I, I, I love that. I love that observation. And I like how that feels true, both inside of the world and around all of the various adaptations and the staying power of, of playing in the universe. It's literally what we were just talking about in terms of like being in a packed theater, sharing a story with people, you know? Yeah. Yes. This is why. So on the, on the, on the singing in the theater front. Yeah. Now, you know me very well. I, I,

just prefer to be home or not around very many people. Though I also do love to share stories with people. Both those things are true. I once did an episode of The Hottest Take where I presented to a few of my colleagues, including Sean, who was confounded and appalled, the idea of movie pods. If I'm remembering my own take, which candidly I might not be, it was like, I was basically pitching

the pods from Love is Blind inside of movie theaters because I was sort of like I don't want to opt out of like sharing things with other people but I would like to like control like the noise and like the experience a little bit more um so let's rent out a private theater to watch Kraven

That's more to just keep you here. But yes, other benefits as well. So I was interested in my own, like, visceral response to seeing all of these headlines about the... People singing in the theater. Singing in the theater. And I'm like, let people sing and enjoy themselves in the movie theater. And I feel like I'm... But so I have a sub take. Okay. Which is, I think we were... The Ringer pop culture slack is...

the vibrant space today discussing this and my suggestion was like movie theaters need and this is again building on the long ago how to take episode where I'm just like let's let's let's start offering more experiences at the movie theater beyond just do you want like 3d or um dolby atmos or do you want your seat to recline um no yes yes I I

the Amtrak quiet car for movie theaters. Like I do not think it's right or fair to ask people to not express themselves in a movie that they're this excited about. Let people have fun at the movie.

If people find that distracting and don't want it, maybe the theater should have a quiet car equivalent of a different kind of movie-going experience. I think we need to give people more choices. But I was really interested that my response was not like, well, yeah, tell everyone to be quiet because I am sort of like, why are people always so loud in movies? But I think it's amazing that people are sitting down and they're excited to sing and cheer. And I think it's kind of sad to make people feel like they shouldn't do that. I feel similarly, but I just want to flip the...

Instead of opt into quiet, I think... Opt into loud? Quiet should be the default. Not like silent, okay? But just like generally... If I'm on an Amtrak quiet car and someone makes a sound... I think decorum at the movie theater, decorum at any theater, should be like...

Relatively quiet. Sort of. Don't make your. Don't infringe on other people's viewing experiences. I do think. And I believe they are already planning to do this. There should be. Just.

just legions of sing-along wicked screenings you know what i mean they i've been to like sing-along sound of music screenings like that is like it's so fun everyone is like agreed on a social contract that we're going to be in here and we're going to sing along because we want to we we know the words and they'll put the words on the screen and whatever i think they did it for

frozen like they've done it for like various like disney animated movies something like that so yes i actually think day one they should have like sort of similar to like 2d 3d or whatever they should have been as many sing-along options as non um but i don't think that like and if you want to like murmur sing your favorite song but it's just sort of like if you're belting in the theater

I did not pay to hear you. I paid to hear Cynthia and Ariana sing. Like, what are you doing? This is what stressed me out. And this is, I would never do this at a, at a, like a musical concert, but this is what stresses me out about, um, like I'm so in favor of the fact that the eras tour exists, but every single video I've ever seen from the eras tour is someone on their cell phone with like a million people screaming around them, um,

And you can't hear Taylor. And I'm like, that would actually irritate me. I think they're having a great time and I love that for them. I should not introduce myself into that environment because it would not be for me. Um,

I can't comment on the concert-going experience. I feel like the – I can't actually remember, but I feel like the last concert I saw might have been like Willie Nelson and Bob Dylan. I was going to say Bob Dylan. That is so funny. I mean, I have seen Bob Dylan multiple times in concert, and I have not been able to discern a word he was singing once. Yeah, that's true. But that had less to do with the crowd and more to do with my guy, Bob. And like at a concert – Yeah, yeah. At the movie theater, again, there should be sing-along –

I think people should be allowed to do it. I think to your point, I think we're saying the same thing. You should have a choice. You should be allowed. I just don't think that like the minority should be allowed.

It's like when people are like, well, if you're going to look at your phone... They used to do those promos before movies where they're like, don't look at your phone. And I'm like, yeah, don't look at your phone. Now they're like, if you're going to look at it... I think this is in front of Deadpool and Wolverine, I forget, where they're like, just look at it underneath your jacket or something. I was like, what? Put your phones away. That I feel strongly about. Stop eroding the line. It's so distracting when the glow of the phone starts. Stop dissolving the line between civilized society and complete anarchy. But like...

There should be offerings. Oh, man. Yeah, because I heard someone say, if you don't like singing along, you should just stream it at home. I'm like, opposite! You should be the one at home, not I. But also... But also... Oh, man. I think things that I like that theaters do nowadays that I really enjoy is they'll do movies for new parents.

where like the lights are kind of up and the sound is down so you could bring your baby to the theater if you like can't get a sitter but you don't want to not be a moviegoer anymore they do these like you know kid friend like small child friendly screenings i love that like i love that that exists and so like i went to one sort of by accident um but like it was just like a bunch of moms just sort of like bounce walking their babies around the screening and i was just sort of like i

I love that this exists. So like, those things should exist. Yeah. But in a theater.

We should be quiet and our phones should be away. We should stop eating cellophane to that lady who was behind me at the Grand League. I do believe everybody should open their snacks at the beginning of the movie, but I also think the movie theater needs to help us. More cup holders in the arms of our chairs, more pockets for snacks. That way you can have multiple things. Now, I see this again as a person who likes to buy no fewer than four to five things for every movie. Not all of us do a five-course meal at the cinema, but I do agree that you should be supported in your needs. Because if I only have two cup holders, I'm not going to put like

a food on any surface at a movie theater like i wish that much like a united flight they were handing out like little wet wipes for the scene well you travel with them do you not i mean boy i think when i honestly when i go to a movie i'm just like the second i get home i will be watching this happen and showering so if i had somewhere to go after i would i would have to

I'm sure this exists, but I feel like... But I don't usually have plans. You travel with, like, a somewhat capacious bag. So I feel like, unless you're wearing your, like, your, like, whatever you call a fanny pack. But, like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like there has to be some sort of, like,

tray table I can get you that like yeah folds up and put in your bag and you like unfold it and it's got just like all the like it's got all your little like lunchable like little things your sour patch watermelons out and I'm in it worries me a little bit for like my future that I think you're describing the like hover chairs for the blob people in Wally

Or he could just like strap me in in front of my screen and like put my feed in front of it. I'm not uninterested if I'm being honest. Oh, God. So reputation and propaganda. The evenings that everyone should enjoy.

Okay, I want to skip to this next part because we are running a little long and I do need you to name a bunch of anonymous thighs. So I want to talk about the idea of what I'm calling unabashed emotionality and girlhood. So mention the Eros tour, Barbie. We've already mentioned those things. And I think this communal aspect of watching this film really just sort of unlocked something I think a lot of us are just really thirsty for. This idea of not just community, but community and an idea of...

unabashedly enjoying something or just surrendering yourself to emotion, crying in Wicked.

Crying while Mallory describes her snack tray future also, but like crying inside of Wicked as like, as this ode to unabashed emotionality. And obviously everyone's welcome at the Wicked screening. I had a lot of guys at my Wicked screening. I'm not saying this is a thing for women at all.

but it is like female coded, the idea of like musicals and, and female friendships and a lot of pink and wicked and like all this sort of stuff like that. But the idea that like everyone is just embracing it and enjoying it and understanding like how nourishing it can be to just be sort of like unabashedly excited or unabashedly romantic. And like, I just want to, I just want to pay homage to,

to like Stephen Schwartz amazing he's been a legend for a million years I one of the moments I cried while watching Wiccan one of the few moments I cried while watching Wiccan

was they, Stephen Schwartz, Dina and, um, Kristen have cameos, uh, in the movie. My theater. Oh, bananas. Bananas. But also in that same sequence, when he holds men, uh, has a little cameo as like one of the town people are like, he must be a wizard. Um, and then Stephen Schwartz has a cameo as like the, the guard, uh,

on the door with a mustache who's like, let him in. When I saw Woody Holtzman created one of the greatest television shows ever, My So-Called Life, which is in itself an ode to just- Jordan Catilano. Jordan Catilano. But like, to your point, I know that's a joke, but also just allowing space for young Claire Danes as Angela Chase to swoon over-

undeserving Jordan Catalano, whom among us didn't. As I believe I've said on the pod before, my first sex dream was about Jordan Catalano. At least that I remember. But my so-called life, too pure to live long on our airwaves, but was such a celebration of... And Claire Danes...

became increasingly famous throughout her career as our number one on-screen crier. Angela Chase is someone who just feels everything profoundly and celebrating that.

uh, is something that my so-called life did and something that when he holds men, like, I'm just so thrilled that when he holds men has like wicked money, like that makes me really happy. I'm just like, that lady is rolling in wicked money and I am thrilled for her, but like that she took a lot of that and put it, that sentimentality and to be unembarrassed of your sentimentality to allow young women to allow Elphaba to feel like,

despite the many cocky, wonderful grins that Johnny Bailey as hero is sending her way. She's like, but I'm out of the running. I am not that girl. And I will never be someone that he looks at that way. Like that is just not who I am. And then she just sort of like swoons and sighs and he might as well have Jordan Catalan leaned against a locker, you know what I mean? Whatever the shiz university version of a locker is. So like, um, I just love that.

This thing that Winnie Holzman curated in the 90s, obviously not the only person to do it, but has become this mass entertainment. Wicked. Yeah. Again, the Eras Tour, Barbie. All of this stuff is just like, you know, there were...

We all lived through the era where we were supposed to feel embarrassed about it. And the fact that this is just like something that everyone's experienced together is just incredibly important to me. Well said. I second it in full. It's like, you know, we've talked about this a little bit before, but it's... I really have been thinking about this a lot the last couple of years. Like, you know, I think for me personally, like I've always been...

and like, I think that as a young woman in sports media at the start of my career, I felt like I really had to like tamp that down. And so like one of the most incredible parts of, um, you know, doing this pod with you and, and like when Jason and I started doing binge mode together and I would like be, I would just feel so deeply about something and then feel like that was like, okay. Right. Both like in the process of recording it, but then in how, um,

you know, the audience like would receive it and really like want to share in that. They love that about you. It's like, it's honestly been like a transformative thing in my life. So like then, you know, the last few years seeing that really like playing out at scale for so many different people. I have not gone to an ERA's concert, but I'm like watching all of the people who are doing that and making bracelets for each other and sharing it with different generations of people in their lives. And it's just like, what a...

you know, society is so grim and dark and fucked in so many respects. And then to like have these slivers of shared joy and just like moments where it feels totally okay to like be yourself and say, if something made you sad or say, if something made you happy is feels more necessary than ever. Um,

And like a real gift when you find people who like want to share that with you and make it like a safe space for you to do that whenever it feels like true and right. So, you know, one of the moments in the movie that I really loved was like the, the Oz dust, the clubbing sequence for this reason, because like, it's not just that that emotion was so raw and real in terms of the mockery and the shame. And then that,

life raft, right, of Glinda going to join Alphaba. But it was that it was so public and like to be able to have such a raw and real and intense response in front of other people and feel for a minute like that was like

how would you make it through that? And then to actually come out stronger on the other side because it was a shared thing. I think it's just a really important thing for everybody who goes to see the movie to get to watch and witness. And then obviously they go right from that into bonding in a more quiet and private way. But that felt so intentional that that crucible is...

There are things that this, you know, this two hour and 40 minute movie of act one of a musical did to expand the story. And, you know, there's plenty of places you can find people going over that in granular detail. But I think the choice to expand the Ozdust Ballroom sequence into this like lengthy, beautiful dance, they, you know, it's very intentional and they like have talked about how important that was for them to nail. But I also just think that like,

I was just stunned by that. I mean, like the performance. Okay, let's go back. I skipped this section accidentally. Let's go back to it. To Galinda, Elphaba, and Fiera. And Fiera, why not if we want to? But like to Cynthia, Ariana, and Johnny Bailey. Our favorite moments. Icons all. Yeah. And also on the musical nerd front.

I have had to suffer through so many musicals the last few years where they have like auto-tuned people to hell because they got people who are performers, but not singers. But obviously like Cynthia Erivo is an absolute stage legend. Johnny Bailey also, um, I saw him in company in London years ago with Patti LuPone. Um, and, uh, and like, and Ariana Grande is amazing in this. And so like, when I left my press screening, um,

And I had been hearing for a long time that Ariana Grande was like amazing in this. And I left my press screening and I was standing, I was walking behind two people who hate Ariana Grande, but loved her in this movie. And they're like, Oh my God, I hate her so much, but she's so good in this. Okay. Let's just like, let's just like, let's just like, we'll go back to hating her in the next thing she does, but she's like so good. And I was just like, yeah, even the haters have to say Ariana Grande. It's incredible in this movie. Um,

She was amazing. She's so good. So do you have any like favorite outstanding moments that you want to call out for these, this trio? Um, I have the overhead shot of Glinda, like sliding along on the floor. Absolutely killed me. Just genuinely incredible. Um, I thought she, I really, I mean, I thought all three of them were just unbelievable, like start to finish. Um,

I mean, yeah, Defying Gravity was, you know, that was my favorite. That was my favorite. That was really amazing. I did love the little lion, the sweet little lion cub sequence with Fiyero and Elfie. The touching of the cheek. That was all very sweet. Yeah. Yeah.

What else? What were some other highlights? I mean, it was all really great. It was. What was your, like, after Non-Defying Gravity, what was your second favorite musical number? Because it feels like that was just, like, in another stratosphere. Yeah. They were like, okay, I will allow one, and I have a few, but I will allow one critique to seep into this celebration of what Wicked has done, which is that there were, like, a few moments where they were like,

we know you love popular. We're about to do popular. We know that you love popular. We're going to, you know, and so like Defying Gravity being like 15 minutes long because I kept breaking it up was like a thing. But for me, I'm surprised seeing it a second time.

The Wizard and I just, like, really... That's my second favorite. Got to me. Like, I love Popular. Really good. What Is This Feeling is a wonderful song. Dancing Through Life is a great song. But The Wizard, in terms of, like, I want songs, a staple of the, you know, Disney animated musical genre. Like, I just thought it was so... And she's just her. And she's just...

And my theater went crazy for it. Yeah, same. Yeah, I just, I really, I think because I've heard what is this feeling in popular and defying gravity so many times that like they feel like they sort of belong to the every person.

to the culture. Whereas Wizard and I, again, like a, you know, a big song from this musical, but like that feels like it belongs to her in this movie, in this moment, you know? Love that. I thought she was so good. And her just like running around on the, I just hit the wall, her running around in the field, you know, just sort of like, just like opening herself entirely to the enormity of her hopes and, and wants. The potential. Yeah. The possibility. But then also just that,

glimmer on the stone of doom and the prophecy and what awaits and the sense of the unknown, but just, yeah, the boundless hope too. Yeah. And they did this cool thing that they, they also do in the stage musical when she's under the, um,

you know, the, the, the pieces of colored glass and it reflects on her face and it like washes out the green, which they do with like gels on the stage. I thought that was like a really brilliant way to bring like a bit of the stage magic to, uh, the film itself. Yeah. Just, just great. Great stuff. Um, okay. So, um, we talked about emotionality. We talked about the performances. Uh, Johnny Bailey was just,

Wonderful. Superb. He's elite. Truly elite. Incredible stuff. Wonderful. Yeah. Which stuff go? Now that we've seen all of the 2024 wish properties, we've only seen a couple episodes of Dune Prophecy, but we know what's in the water there. How would we rank them? Here are our entries. Dune Part 2. Dune Prophecy. Agatha All Along. Acolyte. Remember Acolyte? Yeah.

It's been so long. It's come back around to charming. Okay, Wicked. It's Pavlovian. I couldn't help it. Wicked. Bad Monkey, don't worry about it if you haven't seen it. Don't worry about it. But I had to watch it for prestige, so I'm putting it in the mix here. And then House of the Dragon, our Babe Alice Rivers, of course. Are we ranking it specific, like in terms of overall quality of each of the shows? Just the witch stuff inside of the productions. The power of one, the power of two, the power of many. I can't believe that was only a few months ago.

Remember we used to record in studio together? I do. Three times a week. It was wonderful. I miss you. Remember that time you dropped your chapstick in the bathroom? Yeah, it was horrible. It rolled under the sink. Dead to you. A source of actual torment. But then you gave me your spare chapstick and that's how I knew you were endgame for me. That's how I knew you were the one.

In my moment of need, you gave me a chapstick and that's the truest stuff there is. Boy, you take me through your ranking here. This is really hard. On the witch stuff front. Which stuff go inside of all of these? Yeah. You doing a top three or are you going to rank them start to finish? I'm going to do five. Okay. We can just retire Bad Monkey. It's okay. Haven't seen it. Witch stuff only. Yeah. House of the Dragon, number one. Alice Rivers. Really good. Yeah. Number two, Agatha Allalong.

Okay. Number three, Wicked. Number four, Doom Part 2. Number five...

acolyte yeah you're gonna swap dream prophecy for acolyte okay yep otherwise i i'll co-sign the list okay great we did the which stuff go only yeah i like it i like it the definitive which stuff go ranking that we just uh decided to come up with here at the end of a two-hour pod that we said was gonna be like here's the question when we do our you know top

moments of the year pod like at the end of the year an annual tradition we look back on all of our favorite moments from the stories we covered how many of your choices do you think will be which stuff go milk 10 out of 10 10 out of 10 it could happen three minimum probably more but three minimum more three seems i take the over

This is where doing spoiler stuff go. We're doing it really quickly. We don't have a ton to say about this. We just wanted to like have the option to. And then. Also, as previously mentioned, I can't remember the musical that I saw. Yeah. So I just like put a bunch of spoilers in this document for you. You're welcome. And then please stick around for something that may or may not get caught on the podcast. It's called Name That. Bye. All right. So you can skip past this if you don't want any wicked part two spoilers. But yeah.

With whatever wisps, tendrils, vapors of memory that you had about the way that Wicked ends. I actually did remember all of this once I saw it in the doc. Yeah, I was relieved that I was capable of retaining this massive, these massive plot points. Are there any Easter eggs or forward-looking references that you most enjoyed in watching part one, act one? Obviously my cowardly lion.

Really just everything on the Scarecrow Tin Man Cowardly Lion front. I think that's all set up quite well. If you're listening to this and you don't know, but you wanted to listen to the spoiler section anyway, I know you sickos exist out there. Oh, yeah. Fiyero is a Scarecrow. Bok, they gave him the last name Woodman just to tip you off in this movie. Bok.

He of the curly red hair is the Tin Woodsman. And then, yeah, the little lion cub you meet is the Cowardly Lion. That one has the least... Because, like, Bach as Tin Woodsman, who gets mad at her because she is part of, but I would argue not at all responsible for, turning him into a Tin Man. Right. Yeah.

like recruits the cowardly lion by being like, you remember she scared you that day. I'm like that bitch rescued you. Cowardly lion. What are you talking about? Come on. Yeah. Someone needed to observe the why, then why is he trembling? Yeah. The cage. Very sad. Um, uh, sweet little, sweet little lion cub. I think for me, and there's a lot, there's a lot of little moments, some subtle, some not so subtle. Um,

her telling fiero to get stuffed is good stuff yeah i like top of the heap for me um the stuff with the ruby slippers glinda knocking together the ruby slippers in in popular which are not actually the slippers it's the silver slippers that are the actual slippers and in uh part two anything else we want to talk about i guess the stuff i mean i think i thought actually they handled the stuff with the wizard being her dad really well because like

If you care to look for it, it is pretty obvious. It's just like his hair. It's the silhouette of his head. It just also sounds like Jeff Goldblum at the beginning. But, you know, if you're someone who prefers not to think about story on that level and you're just sort of like dancing through life and watching, you know, this film on the surface, it could still, I guess, be a twist for you. You know, when he sighs and looks at her and says, a father, and you're like, okay. But yeah, I thought...

I don't know. I thought this stuff was really fun. I think the Scarecrow stuff is among my favorite because this has always been true. The Fieros, the whole life is painless for the brainless, all the lyrics from Dancing Through Life and then his movements inside of that dance. And then every stage Fiero and also this Fiero. Yeah.

do like the scarecrow pose at one point, you know, I mean, there's a point where he's like backlit and sort of like leaning his arms out. But right before he tells Glendale, you're good. Um, you know, that's like to give us a little scarecrow tease. So yeah, I don't know. I just wanted to like talk about stuff. And I guess, um,

My question based on like what we know happens act two, act two in any theater show is shorter than act one. In this particular show, it is darker than act one. There are fewer famous songs in it. There's for good, which is like one of the best songs, but like there are fewer memorable songs in act two. Stephen Schwartz has said that they've written two new songs for the second movie and

they have to expand the story in some way. But I am curious how part two is going to, it's the same way that like we've kind of been talking about like the third Dune movie. We're like, are people going to,

hang with Dune Messiah after seeing Dune Part 1 and Part 2? Are we all going to hang with Wicked Part 2 after seeing Part 1? Because it's a tougher sit. Everything that happens in that thing. So do you have any qualms about that? Or are you just sort of like, I choose not to worry about it. It's going to be great. No, I love it. To me, it makes it feel like more of a journey. Yeah.

So I like that, and I think that people will find it rewarding and emotionally intense, but then there's a lot of payoff, right? For everything that awaits with Nessa Rose, we have our discoveries below puddles and trap doors. So there's a lot of heartache, but also a lot of...

joy and like positive surprises about the lasting nature of some sort of connection. So I think I would be surprised if people didn't respond well to that. And I think in part because of what you said earlier, like the difference between maybe something like this and Barbie of people bringing their attachment to the story with them. So there's just so much more familiarity. And I wonder too, like for maybe people who came to Wicked Part One not having seen the stage production or...

you know, read the book or anything else, like how many people will want to go in dark and preserve that and how many people will like try to consume it in some other way while they're waiting the next year and just like try to soak up all the, all the wicked that they can. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not worried about that at all. How about you? Are you, do you think the tonal shift is going to be during curious? I'm curious how they're going to handle it. I'm curious in what direction that they will expand the story. Like, are we going to get more in the book? Yeah.

There's this really great scene between Dorothy and Elphaba at the end where Dorothy is essentially there to apologize for what happened to Nessaros. You know, like there's just like, so I don't, you know, I can see, you know, the, the, the stage show decided to like never show Dorothy. And this is just showing us like the back of Dorothy. And so I can see a version of this where they're like, we don't really want to get into the Dorothy of it all really in a meaningful way.

But I could also see a version where they do. They haven't announced that they've cast anyone, though, so I can't imagine that it's actually going to go that way. Are they going to expand on the Bach and Nessa Rose stuff? That might be better to be more than just one scene. I have some questions about it all. But I'm excited to find out. Me too. I'm excited for...

people to be exposed to more musical theater, obviously. Should we take a- What year for you? Witches and musicals everywhere. Wild swing for musical theater? Yeah. To name that, I guess two things I apparently love. I'm not going to get a single one of these right. I mean, it's so easy. No, no, no. No, don't say that. Okay. Steve, cut Joanna saying it's so easy. That way-

I will say this. I intentionally did not try to trick you with anything. I intentionally tried to make it worse when I can't get any of them. But we can blame my failing eyesight and failing mind. You're allowed to ask three questions if you're stuck on anything. And some options are like, I don't want to say all of these are characters, except for one is just like a person thing.

but you'll see why. But all the rest are fictional characters. And then you could ask, like, what decade is this thigh from? Like, is this a movie or television? Like, stuff like that, you know? Okay. Okay. How many are there? Five? There's ten. We're going to go so fast. Okay? We're going to go so fast. And then we'll cut it out. It's fine. Okay? Incredible. Okay. Oh, my gosh. Okay. We're going to start with

Name that guy. That's definitely – I'm sure that's Connell from Normal People. That is Connell from Normal People. I know the rugby outfit well. I told you. I didn't make this to trick you. Literally yesterday. So literally, I was Googling Connell Normal People rugby shorts yesterday. So nothing could be more top of mind. Why was I doing that? Mind your own business. Mind your own business.

I intentionally put little pieces of costume in here so that you're not just looking at man flesh. Speaking of man flesh, it's not just men in this. We're equal opportunity. Can you name that thigh? I'm getting a reflection. Hold it back. Is that yellow? Yes. Yellow dress. Blue...

Like belt. Belt. No idea. Do you want to ask any questions? Already on the second one. I have no clue. I got one now. It's going to be O for the next nine. Do you have any questions? What fictional universe is this from? No.

Would it help if I know? Yeah, I know that. I know you. Get in here. Okay, yeah. Steve, get in here. Let's tag team it. Yeah. Steve. Let's tag team it. That is Rebecca Ferguson in Mission Impossible. That is Rebecca Ferguson in Mission Impossible. Yeah. Hold on. I'm usually too lost. See, this is where it's going to be revealed that I'm not maybe as much of a guy as I thought because when Rebecca Ferguson is on screen, I'm just...

I'm staring into the green of her eyes. I'm skipping this next one because it's just going to be too hard to see genuinely. I had a really hard time finding this, but I'll give you the bigger one, the pan out, just to let you know that in my memory, this pose was all thigh when in fact it's really mostly knee. But I just want to shout out Mbaku here. It was really flashing a little bit of knee and not really full thigh, so I couldn't really get a good zoom in on it. Okay. Okay. This one is a throwback.

to like the 90s oh boy i have no hope of this and it is a lady steve you are welcome to help if you can 90s television xena that is xena warrior princess yeah proud of myself you got it yeah i did get it here she is in all of her glory okay wonderful choice that's a great one thank you yeah

All right, here we go. Oh, and I did, with this one slight exception. That was Namor. I only needed to see that for 0.2 seconds to know. With this one exception, I did no bathing suits because I was just like, but this is his costume. You literally didn't even hold that up all the way. And I knew that was Namor. No, you don't need to apologize. I just like that one. That is Namor, the submariner from Black Panther. Got that one. Yep. Okay. You're doing well. Yeah.

Sorry that I stymied you with I thought your wife Rebecca Ferguson. Okay, this is I just stare into her beautiful eyes and like her freckled nose. I don't see thighs. I see features and souls only. Okay, this is the only one that's not a fictional character. Okay. It is just merely a person you and I both know. Like actually know? No, we wish.

I'm just seeing crotch. I don't see any legs. Can you hold it back further? Move it back? Okay. Oh, boy. Let's see here. Let me think. Okay. Kilt. Who could this be? So this is a... Is this David Tennant? It's not. But it is a Scottish person. Yeah. Okay. Is it...

So the kilt is just straight. It's a favorite of ours. Is it Ewan McGregor? It is Ewan McGregor. Yeah, okay. I just had to go through our two great Scottish lives in some order. And I went with Tennant first and then I got to Ewan. It's my favorite photo of Ewan McGregor. I had it on my wall as a kid. Let me see the full picture. It is him with the chicken for Vanity Fair. Wonderful stuff. His knees are all muddy for no reason. Yeah, they are muddy. Yeah, well. Okay. Plenty of reasons. All right.

This one is the one that I feel the least comfortable about, but there was no other good angle on this one. And I blame not me for that. Okay. Boy, let's see. Okay, so am I looking at like a black leather skirt? Yeah. If you want to call it a skirt, you can. Charitably. I don't know that it's black. Milky thighs. Blue? Blue?

Oh, it looks a little different with you panning out here. Sorry, I don't know how my... By my screen, I'm filling the screen when I do this, but you're like, that's just way too close. Okay. Oh, man. There's a little bit of rope right here. Does that help you? Is this Wonder Woman? This is a Wonder Woman. Yeah. Okay. Got a little lasso there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Really hard to find a... That was a close crowd. Yeah.

shot of her thighs that doesn't make you feel deeply uncomfortable. I'm loving everything about this. Okay, this is an iconic... Fantastic. I don't know if you're familiar with this property, actually, from the 80s, but this is just an iconic thigh situation. Wait, so hold it. Move back and out a little. Okay, so these are short shorts. We look to be behind maybe a bike or a... It's a car. Red car.

Okay. I have no idea what this is. Steve, do you know this one? 1980s TV icon. Is that Burt Reynolds? Oh, you're very close. This is from a show. A television show because you said TV icon. A genre show? Action adventure. 1980s. King of the short shorts. Ooh. I have no idea. This one was like a swing. I wasn't sure if you're going to get that. Tell me. This is...

And this is such a good photo. This is Tom Selleck as Magnum P.I. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like you to look at. Oh, weird. The side mirror looked like a bicycle seat. Oh, yeah, yeah. Huh. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Did not know that one. Okay.

But now I do, and I'm glad to. Two more to go. This one is also from the 80s. I have two examples for the same actor. Two different. If you don't get this one, I'm going to show you the next one, okay? The 80s ones are going to be tough. All right. See, very greasy thigh. This character in this film is perpetually crouching. Never not crouching. Okay. I feel like I should know this, but I don't. That's okay. Let me show you the other one. It's also from the 80s, but it's a little bit more iconic. Okay.

Oh my god. I just love this. There you go. Oh my god. Wait, hold it a little closer. Two of cinema's most famous guys. That's Risky Business, right? Yes, this is Tom Cruise and Risky Business. Of course. I just wanted to hold it in closer. That was for you. That one I knew. That one I recognized. Also, Tom Cruise and Legend.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did not clock the from behind shot of that one, but of course, Risky Business I am quite familiar with. Last but not least. Wonderful stuff. You've done an amazing job. And the last one is your reward for all your good work. So it's just for you. Thank you for this. I just want to say thank you for this. You're welcome. Where'd you get my private photo of me on Harrison Ford?

Oh my god, great stuff. Okay, I have prepared a surprise. That is Daryl Hannah, obviously. I'm sorry, yes. That's Blade Runner, sorry. Blade Runner.

Hold on. When I say I've prepared, I didn't mean I actually had it open, but let me... I've prepared a... I have absolutely... Hold on. Here we go. My Google search algorithm is in absolute shambles after that. And I have never been more... Did you do this on your work computer? I've never been more embarrassed. No, that one's waiting an update. I've never been more embarrassed in my life than when I'm zooming in on some of those photos. Okay.

I thought I did not know that the thighs was a me thing. I thought this was a shared thing. So I, it, I, I, it can be. Okay. All right, Joe, I decided to surprise you with a little version of my own name. That's I only have a few for you. I don't have 10. Are you ready to begin? Yeah. Okay. Oh no. Are these all athletes? Is that an athlete?

No. No. I mean, an athletic person. Are they all Paul Meskel? They're all Paul Meskel. They're all Paul Meskel. I seem to have accidentally deleted one in attempting to. Oh, no. Where did the last one go? I have to bring it back. Where did it go? Well, I somehow deleted the last one, which was the best one. This is a tragic real-time tech mishap.

Absolutely. Oh, here it is. I got it back. I got it back. I got it back. Yes, this is, of course, the recent. Yes. Yeah, you know that one. Speaking of Namor, who you got in just like a snap, when I was looking for those thighs in particular, the main images I found were attached to an article where the actor, Tino Schwerthe, talked about how the CGI diminished his bulge in those trunks. And I don't remember us talking about that, but

I believe it. Those were some short, tight shorts. And they just had to, like, minimize the impact. Okay, that was Name That Thigh. Tremendously good radio sequence. Hey, these episodes are available to watch.

On Spotify or the reverse YouTube. Let this be your incentive. Bad babies everywhere. Thank you to Mallory Rubin for being exactly the human that she is. And I love you madly. Brightened my day. I cherish you. We get a Steve Ullman for his pinch hit on the Rebecca Ferguson. Bye. Good work.

Thank you to Stefano Sanchez for his work on this incredible, very important video episode. And also to Alayza Neris for her work on the video for this episode. Thank you to Arjuna Rangapal for his production work here, there, and everywhere. And to Jomia Dinaran on the social media.

We'll be back sometime soon. I'm actually not making a promise right now because it's a holiday week. So I'm just going to keep it loose. There you go. Loosey goosey. But we will be back and we wish you a happy holidays and go see Wicked if you haven't. You'll have a great time and we'll see you soon. Treat yourselves. Bye. Bye.