‘Rings of Power’ Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive | House of R
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Just bring your number and ID and sign up for an eligible plan. After 12 months, trade in and get our best deals on select devices. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. It's that time of year, so spread more joy with The Home Depot's giant holiday decor. Go big this holiday season with larger-than-life decor that really hits home. Be like my wife. She'll just go to Home Depot to see what they got cooking. She's always ready to plan for the holidays. Maybe that's a tree.

You can put together in a few clicks like the Grand Duchess. That sounds great. Or a huge eight foot towering Santa with poseable arms that a flame effect lantern that might be in front of my house or an eight and a half foot towering reindeer with illuminated flashing bells. That's the holiday spirit at the Home Depot. Shop in store online now at homedepot.com. Mordor's rise was but the beginning. At this very moment, all Middle Earth balances on the brink of the abyss. Soon, every realm will fall.

Not just elves, but dwarves and men. The darkness is growing stronger, and the Rings of Power are our last hope of restoring the light. You and I have work to do. Oh, welcome back to Middle-earth, to House of R. Mallory Rubin, you and I have work to do. Here we are, talking about the Rings of Power, Season 2, Episodes 1 through 3. Over three hours of Rings of Power is what we're here to talk about today. Mallory, how are you doing?

You know, it's a lot of runtime to get through in one pod, but panic is the fool's meal, Joe, and it would be wiser to sup on patience. So I think we can do it. I'm hyped to be back in Middle Earth, hyped to be here with you today. Just hitting me right away with the wizardly wisdom. I love that. I love that. It was either that or killer of stone giants, eater of dragon bones. Didn't know what term to go with at the top. Listen, um...

Either of Dragon Ball is one of my favorite lines of these three episodes. It's pretty good. So in case it's not clear, again, we're talking about three episodes from season two. Amazon and their infinite wisdom dropped three episodes at the beginning of this run. So if you've only watched one or you didn't know that they dropped three, you might want to press pause and go watch it. We're not going episode by episode. We're going sort of like storyline by storyline. So we are going to talk about all three episodes at once and

So just to be clear, you can't like listen to some pause, watch another episode. You got to watch all three and then come back and, and listen to us talk about it. I'm so excited to be back here talking on the rings of power with you, Mallory Rubin. Also folks didn't get a chance to listen. We did do like a primer pod earlier this week of sort of like catching up with

What happened in season one, where we left everyone, some of our most important moments and themes. So, you know, if you have been absent and not listening to us since last season of Rings of Power, welcome back. And we've got a primer pod for you if that's something that you're interested in. Elsewhere in the feed. Program reminders really quickly. Pew, pew. Pew, pew. Midnight Boys are doing a mailbag episode next week.

Button mash, Star Wars Outlaws First Impressions. We've got a Ring of Earths recommends coming to you with some like August recommendations from all of us. And Steve and Jomie on the Mint Edition are talking about Terminator Zero starring the voice of Timothy Oliphant. How exciting for all of us, genuinely. Any update in there on Cobb Vanth?

I have yet to hear, but many people wanted to let me know that Timothy Oliphant is, I believe, the titular Terminator in Terminator Zero. So that's very exciting. As for us, we will definitely be back next week covering episode four of Rings of Power. How are you feeling, Mal, about doing a second Rings of Power episode next week? Are we into that, Malbag?

I think a little bonus bag at the top of the week, given that we have three plus hours of rings of power to get through today. Maybe we'll have some talking points and topics that we didn't get to today. That seems probable. Absolutely. That seems like a likely outcome. And so we can hit them in the form of one of our favorite things, a mailbag coming out of the holiday. So like, you know, we'll see exactly when. Okay. We'll probably report it Tuesday, go up Wednesday, go up Tuesday night, Tuesday afternoon. Who knows?

The prompt, hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com, is all of your questions, comments, or concerns that we did not cover today. And we would love to hear from you. We already got some great emails, which of course we'll incorporate today. And maybe some we won't get to, and I'll sort of move those over into the mailbag. So, you know, we're just all Middle Earth all the time for the next couple episodes. Very exciting for us. Mallory, how can folks keep track of...

Midnight Boys, Mint Edition, Button Rush, House of R. What should they do? Thanks for asking. You're welcome. Simple. Follow the pod. Follow House of R. Follow the Ringiverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the new, new this summer, Ringiverse.

YouTube channel, hit subscribe, and then follow the ring reverse on the social media platform of your choosing Twitter, Instagram, tick tock, et cetera. And then as Joe noted, the inbox is open. So keep the emails coming throughout the season. Send us your emails on anything else that's on your mind. We're only a couple of weeks away from Agatha penguin, et cetera. Hit us up. Did you just say which stuff go? No. Okay. Which stuff go spoiler go on September 18th. Yes. Spoiler warning.

So you might remember if you're with us for season one of Rings of Power that we have an unusual spoiler structure for Rings of Power episodes where we do sort of like three rings and

It's a little complicated. I'm going to explain all of that next week because we're not doing that this week because we simply have too much to get to. So we're not doing a lot of book look ahead or anything like that. We will start that when we cover episode four. So we're not really doing any booklet ahead. I have a few like tiny sort of spoiler sections that we will like warn you about and you can just skip ahead. They're just like brief lore things.

content that if you truly want to know nothing about what happens in the future in a series of books called Lord of the Rings, you can skip ahead and not know any of that. Anything you want to say on the spoiler front, Mallory?

I don't think so. Like you said, we'll go into a more detailed breakdown of the structure for the deep dives for episode four onward when we can talk about one episode at a time. Can't wait for that. Very excited for that. Genuinely. Okay. We did have a couple of questions of people asking because some of the reviews that came out were clearly a review of the whole season. If we got screeners for the whole season, if we were watching ahead, we have only received screeners up through episode three. So we have not watched ahead. It is not our plan to watch ahead. It's our plan to watch week to week. So that's how we're covering this show.

Lovely. All right. A long-expected party. Should we go now to the opening snapshot? Let's do it. Oh, I forgot about that jaunty music. So, so good. All right. Jaunty. The three episodes we are covering today are Elvin King's Under the Sky, directed by Charlotte Brandstrom and written by Jennifer Hutchison. Where the Stars are Strange, directed by Charlotte Brandstrom and Louise Hooper.

written by Jason Cahill, and The Eagle and the Scepter, directed by Louise Hooper and Charlotte Branstrom, and written by Helen Shang. These are all, I believe, returning talents from season one. I just want to start us with this simple question, Mallory Rubin. Did we like it? Yeah. Yeah. Should I go first? You first. Should I kick us off here? You first. You first.

I enjoyed the premiere. I'm delighted to be back in a Rings of Power season. It's been two years. It's been a long time. Great to be back in Middle-Earth, as we talked about at length on our primer pod and season one refresher. It's just really one of the great joys to get to discuss Middle-Earth and Tolkien together. Genuinely one of our favorite things. So I'm thrilled to be back. This has actually nothing to do with Rings of Power. This is just an Amazon release strategy. This is Amazon's approach is my least favorite.

The mini binge. The split. The hybrid approach. Like, this is what they do with the boys. This is not unique to Rings of Power. This was not how Rings of Power went in season one. The three, this is new for season two. We did get two for season one. But have a lot at the start and then wait a while and start going week to week. I just, I've never loved that mix. I really would prefer fully week to week or like a full binge. And three meaty episodes, like these are all north of an hour. Yeah.

I mean, listen, we're never going to complain about a hefty Rings runtime. We are two people who believe that the theatrical cuts of the Peter Jackson trilogy, beautiful though they are, should be constitutionally abolished. You should only be allowed to watch the extended editions. The more we get, the better. So to sit down and luxuriate in Rings of Power for like three and a half hours on the one hand was great, but now I'm like, okay, it just feels like we're caught between. Anyway, in terms of what we actually got,

In some ways, despite my overall feelings about this release strategy for Amazon Prime, it might have been beneficial for kicking off the season this way because it was...

even by the standards of Rings of Power pace that I think we are quite partial to overall, it was a slow start. Like, it took a while to get all of the characters back in the mix. We're not at Khazad-dûm with our beloved Durin and Disa until the second episode. We're not in Numenor until the third episode. So ultimately, I think being able to say at the end of these three, we returned and have a starting point and a recalibration and reorientation with all of our primary characters and places is more beneficial than having to wait many, many moons to...

To see, like, I don't know, for example, my beloved Beric. I mean, what a way to start episode three. Every now and then something happens and you're like, this is just one of the joys of my life. And Beric Cam, that was one of them. You know, I think that some of the...

Some of the plot lines instantly felt more harmonious and like operating at that perfect hum and frequency than others. And I think that a couple others might take a few episodes to settle in like the rock that is quaking and needs to find its new bearings.

but yeah, overall, just like thrilled to be back, excited to go beat by beat and, uh, plot on the map by plot on the map and talk about some of our faves with you. What about you? How'd you feel about the return to rings of power? Yeah, I think as ever, as a season one, there are certain storylines that are like, Oh good. We're, you know, we get, we're returning to this, like Dern and D said, never a dull moment. You know what I mean? Like always excited to return to them. Um, and then there are other plot lines where, you know, it's, it's more of a mixed bag. And that was the case with season one as well. Um,

The thing that struck me the most of these first three episodes, mainly because we got so many emails from listeners who were so excited about The Rings of Power, chiefly because it was a fantasy TV show that they could watch with the whole family, which is not the case for House of the Dragon, right? And so they were like, we love watching The Rings of Power. We can watch it with the kiddos. I was like, you know, they're calling us the villain season. We start with the Sauron episode.

cold open emphasis on the cold versus the Galadriel, like season one, Galadriel sort of backstory, cold open season two, Sauron. This is the, uh, they're calling this sort of the villain season. Um, and so there's just like a lot of more like gore and beasties and scary moments. And so I was just like genuinely thinking about, Oh,

Our listeners who are like families who are sitting down to watch us with their kids. And I'm like, is this still okay for kids? I hope so. Maybe I'm just like being too squeamish, but that was something that struck me a little bit. And then,

To your point about the release strategy, I thought it was interesting the way... What felt very clear to me from a TV-making perspective is that they sort of shuffled some of the planned scenes around. This is clearest, I think, in the Lyndon storyline because you would have these sort of awkward transitions between...

Gil-Galid and Galadriel conversations in one location, and then the very next scene was them in another location. It was just very... That, to me, and the way in which they're crediting two directors on the second and third episode, each, you know, the same two directors, just, I think they sort of shuffled things around a bit. On the one hand, you know, I am dying to know sort of their thinking behind that, but on the other hand, I kind of liked...

I think in season one, it could be a little jarring to rapidly hop around, like constantly checking in from people, you know, people to place to people to place. Or, you know, on the other side of that, when the dwarves are missing or the Harfords are missing for an episode, we're missing them. So there's, you know, it's one or the other because there's so many characters and locations to check in on. But I kind of like for something like,

a Sielder storyline and, and, or Barak storyline, if you prefer that, that doesn't start till episode three. I kind of liked that that was all together. And I felt like it kind of like really get into it. I think if I had only gotten half of that in episode two, then half of it in episode three, I wouldn't have felt as emotionally invested. I think as I wound up feeling, and that was a storyline that sort of surprised me by how much I got emotionally invested in it. So yeah, I think they're trying to be quite mindful about, um,

making sure that the stories they want to tell have a little bit of room to breathe. There's just a little like sort of awkward hangover from some of the reshuffling I think that we're seeing in these first few episodes, but overall genuinely very excited to be back. And some, I mean,

Charlie Vickers as Sauron is just, I think one of the like top performances of anyone ever in anything. I just think he's wonderful. Um, and it's just like even more fun this season with sort of the leash off. Like it's just, we're having a great time. So yeah. Delightful. Helms deep, deep dive into season two episodes one through three. Should we do it? Let's do it. Let's do it.

I messaged you yesterday and I was like, Mallory, I'm working on the notes and I've spent a half an hour and I'm only five minutes in. So that's just how dense this opener was. This opening, we're going to start with a section we're calling Sauron's Lost Days, which was suggested by our listener, Michael. And that's a reference to Avatar, a harrowing Avatar, the last Airbender episode called Appa's Last Days. So Sauron's Lost Days. Yeah.

Let's just start at the beginning. Mallory, when you figured out where we were, when we were, what we were looking at, what was your response? I thought this was amazing. Yeah. Absolutely amazing. On the pace front, this is one of the things genuinely, I understand why it's not for everyone, but I love and admire about the show. They spent

20 minutes on a flashback to open season two. Yeah. 20 minutes. Like that is, that's half of some episodes of television. That, and it was, that would be a whole episode of television for some shows. Yeah, absolutely. And for some shows it's like a line, right? You go in one direction or the other. And this is like, I just thought this was an incredible, incredibly emblematic manifestation of their commitment to,

To spending time in the places that they think are important and with the ideas and moments and in somebody's history that they think are essential to our understanding of something that then follows. So it was great to be back here. We had speculated from the trailers being seeing far away, but like.

First of all, we got that glimpse of the exploding weather effect. We were like, ooh, are we in the past? Or what's going on here? What sort of magic is unfolding? What key event? And obviously, like, the fact that we opened season one, as you noted, with Galadriel there on her quest, where she loses the allegiance of her company at last. And for that parallel to be there with Galadriel and Sauron...

in terms of the turn, right? The moment where you have gone, where like others can't follow. And it's clear that that happens sooner. There's just the final moment of the breach. Very satisfying given the links in our investment in their shared journey and then separation.

I can't quite, even though our job on podcast is to literally put things into words, I can't quite put into words what it meant to us as Slow Horses fans. And of course, shout out not only our fellow Slow Horses enthusiasts, but the Chief Dunkirk head out there, Chris Ryan, to see Jack Loudon river himself as a prior form of Sauron,

I now need to know what Jackson Lamb says to this version of Sauron and the orcs, the Slough House orcs. What speech do they get from Jackson Lamb after Morgoth's fall? Or is it like merely a fart? Like, is that all it is? That's a great question. My mind went in a different direction, which I was like, my mind went in a completely different direction because my thoughts were like,

What were the conversations to get Jack Loudon to do this? Like a cameo. Not that he's like such a big star that he wouldn't, but I'm just sort of like, is he a big Tolkien nerd? Where they just sort of like, Jack, do you want to do this? And he's like, heck yes, I love Tolkien. And also, did he run his lines? Did he run his speech with his now new wife, Saoirse Ronan? Like, I'm just imagining...

him practicing for this with Saoirse Ronan, who he calls Saoirse, and her playing, like, the orcs. And that was just, like, what I was envisioning when I was thinking about this. It was very exciting. So, yeah. Jack Loudon is here. We're going to, like, sort of parse a lot of the language here. It's very specific and, you know, classic rings of power connecting to all these other characters. But, um...

I will say, anecdotally, I heard from a few people this was quite a confusing opening for them because it says the dawn of the second age, but for people who don't know the timeline that well, maybe they didn't really understand that this was a flashback. Sauron has a different face. Adar has a different face, and that's just because they've recast that character. So I think for some people it felt a bit disorienting. But

But that's what we're here for. We're here to hold your hand through this. So this is a flashback centuries ago, according to the VFX people who did the goop that we're going to get to, that he was that Sauron was in goop form, just gooping about for centuries. So that's where we are in the timeline. And remembering that

By the time Galadriel gets there at the opening of season one, this is like a ruin, right? And a long time search. Yes, yes. Okay, so the first lines of season two of Rings of Power are Sauron saying, always after defeat, the shadow takes another shape and grows. And this is...

A Gandalf quote. This is what Gandalf says to Frodo in one of the most famous exchanges from Fellowship of the Ring when they're in the Mines of Moria. And Gandalf says, always after a defeat and a respite.

Gandalf likes a respite. Sauron doesn't care for one. The shadow takes another shape and grows again. And that's when Frodo says, I wish it need not have happened in my time. And Gandalf says, so do I, so do all, et cetera, et cetera. So that very famous, right before that is this line. And it's fascinating to connect Sauron to Gandalf. Sauron to Gandalf and Sauron to one of the most sort of like,

I don't know, bolstering, like pull yourself up by your bootstraps a moment in The Fellowship of the Ring to, you know, our main villain addressing a sea of orcs. And also, of course, we start with the shadow takes another shape and grows again. And this is the main theme we're hitting here, which is like shape-shifting, which is something they really want to underline with Sauron's different face here. Yes, a helpful primer for the shape-shifting and the new forms as we head into the Annatar phase.

Today, a new age begins under me. That's what he says.

And then he just really is just, I mean, I just have some leadership notes for Sauron. Yeah. We should note. Yeah. That what happened is his boss just died. Morgoth just died, was defeated. Yeah. Right. Sauron was his lieutenant. Yeah. So he's not been in the main leadership position before. How do you think it's going, Mallory? Yeah.

It shows. Yeah, yeah. I think my guy needs a little management training here. Many orcs will die, not on the bullet point of bolstering language. Yeah, it's kind of amazing, actually, to watch the orcs, or obviously, you know, Adar has to go through the motions of hiding his intention to stab Sauron in the back and the neck with his crown.

But the orcs are like, his spoon. Yeah. Like, it's so

Very clearly. Read the room. Not going over well. Yeah. And I don't know that Sauron is quite prepared to recover the crowd. We get a lot of interesting language, though, in this stretch. And so it's a fun melding of watching him fail to hold on to this grip that he is seeking to, you know, he describes to Galadriel like the loosening of the fist. This is his effort to establish a fist around Morgoth's army. Right.

and to kind of pair this effort and this key point in terms of the chronology of his fall with language and moments that then prime us. And this, you know, we said we're going to save the full, like, spoiler tears and breakdowns for Pod starting with next week's deep dive. But one thing that we said at the beginning of every pod last season, and we should say again, is like, we're not going to pretend that people haven't

Watch the Jackson films and like, you know, yeah. Seeing Lord of the Rings in addition to obviously the many, many people who have read the book. So like, that's the kind of stuff that we feel is fairly in bounds to discuss. It's not like a secret or something on this pod that will be considered a spoiler that say the one ring will eventually come into existence. And so to hear like, to rule them all as one in this great speech he makes, I mean, how can it not make us think ahead and play out the string ahead to one ring to rule them all? So yeah,

I thought this was a very effective stretch of simultaneously showing us how he lost something while reminding us of what he will eventually achieve.

Rory says rule them all. He says a new kind of power, not of the flesh, but over flesh. And this is a phrase we heard multiple times in season one. Adar says it sort of remembering this speech. He's talking to Galadriel and he's like, this was his whole game plan, not of the flesh, but over flesh. What does that mean? Kel Brimbor parrots it later in a moment that makes Galadriel go, wait a minute.

Is this hot guy I'm traveling with secretly the Dark Lord? Oh, no. To sort of better explain it, what it means not of the flesh but over flesh, just to really quickly say that in Tolkien's world...

There's like two parts to reality. There's the seen world and the unseen world. And Galadriel and Gil-Galad talk about the unseen world a little later when they're talking about their new rings. But the seen world is the physical world and of the flesh. While the unseen is a spiritual world over the flesh. So Sauron is bent on finding a way to corrupt the spirit rather than the flesh to dominate the minds and wills of others in contrast to Morgoth.

who made himself flesh in order to control the flesh or physical matter of the world. So Morgoth set his sight on the bodies, and Sauron's like, hearts and minds, baby, that's the way forward. Both super chill and not at all concerning. Completely fine. This idea that he says...

rather worshipped as the saviors who finally healed it, healed Middle-earth. And this is something we talked a lot about in season one, this idea that is true. This isn't like a retcon from the show. This idea that is true that Sauron...

saw himself, Sauron who started as this sort of angelic figure and has this fall into non-corporeal evil, the flaming eyeball representation of evil. What a way to go. But he starts, as many of these things often do, with good intentions. And this idea that Morgoth falls, Sauron hangs around a bit.

And he says, this is what Tolkien wrote in a letter. He lingers in Middle-earth very slowly, beginning with fair motives. The reorganizing and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, neglected by the gods. His emperor turned to good and benevolence ended in a greater relapse.

But he was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all reformers who want to hurry up with reconstruction and reorganization are wholly evil. Even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up, the healing of desolate lands. And healing, we should just say, is like one of Tolkien's favorite, like most idealized qualities. Yeah.

there's all these quotes, I'm not going to bore you and read them all, but like about healing hands that are connected to Aragorn. And we talked a lot in season one about the way in which Halbrand was like very Aragorn coded. So this idea that like someone who wants to heal the land, have the healing hands of the king, but in this perverted, twisted, took it a bit too far kind of way. Just a touch. Just a bit too far. I thought that was really interesting.

Yeah, we had such fun. We're going to circle back to today a few of those ideas we loved talking about last season, the sub-creators, oaths. Obviously, we'll do that throughout the season. But this idea of healing was a thing that really we just had so intellectually and emotionally stimulating to parse that, which is obviously one of the really rewarding and satisfying things about spending time in this universe. And then you think back to...

At the time, we really loved the season one finale. But now, like, really seeing how season two is going to unfurl in the form of Creeping Roots and gooey tendrils and other things alike. Yeah. It's just incredibly...

uh, uh, uh, satisfying to think back to like all of those moments where we see a Sauron in the form of Halbrand, uh, it allude to, or hint at, and then we'll get to see, you know, shortly this, this actual like moment of, of, of choice. One of many for him with the, I took it, I took it, you know, I found it on a dead man. Um,

If we think to a scene now like the Mind Palace sequence when Galadriel confronts him, and before we're back on that raft with him, before we get our mirror of Galadriel reflection of the ruling pair that he's trying to pitch her on allowing them to be, he takes the form of Finrod, right? He takes the form of her brother. That's the first path to attempting to woo her and secure her allegiance, right?

through the veil of a quest that she believes is for this purpose, healing and restoring peace. And so to put, not only for us to hear that this was something that in some initial and then fading or warped or twisted, whatever your perception on it is, way, Sauron actually did noodle on for a minute, right?

To have him put that in Finrod's mouth as he is attempting to manipulate Galadriel is so effective. My task is what Dreamrod says to Galadriel. Thank you. Okay, I can't wait to get to Keladrimbor later. They're just all the names work for this, you know? Right.

And then back in the Halbrand form, he says to her,

and I knew if ever I was to be forgiven, then I had to heal everything that I had helped to ruin, but she had to hear it from Finrod first, which I just now love even more looking back on and thinking about again. The other moment of Adar who hates Sauron and is telling Galadriel about him

Even Adar says, after the defeat of Morgoth, the one you call Sauron devoted himself to healing Middle-earth, bringing its ruined lands together in perfect order. So it's very much a for the greater good. Many orcs will die. Oh, yeah. For the greater good, which is, you know, this is fascism. This is what Sauron has in mind, and it's not great. I will just say Tolkien...

Fairly anti-fascist. So here we are. Yes. Yeah. And like, you know, this is something we also like to think about. You described like the angel in the fall, right? There are the biblical comps and corollaries, of course. And there are the parallels to the wars that Tolkien experienced and that were so central to his life. And so we can bring all of that to tracking. That's one of my favorite...

elements of diving deep into Tolkien is like him saying I don't like allegory and all of us being like too bad my guy your story is full of it yeah I'm glad that you don't but you uh survived World War I and then watched your son go off to World War II and you were scarred by it and you put it in a fantasy tale so this is what we're here to talk about okay so Sauron thwarts a stabbing attempt

And then again, Jack Loudon smoothing his hair, the wig, the ginger wig down. In a totally normal and chilling cool way, just absolutely shrieks, I am your only future and my path your only path. And his face distorts as he says it. Bulging, dark veins. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. And then as you said, Adar uses Sauron's pointy crown to stab him. And just a quick crown corner of...

with you all. This pointed crown is a design that we saw in Sauron in the battle flashbacks of Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy, which was in turn inspired by this drawing of Morgoth that John Howe, famous Tolkien artist, did. Morgoth's iron crown is quite famous

And it was forged to hold the three Simirels, these three points in the front for the three Simirels. In canon, the crown was melted down to make a collar for Morgoth, but Charlie Vickers has said that crown is Morgoth's crown. So in this world, Sauron takes his old boss's crown. That's what he wants to wear, Simirels or no.

The reason I bring up this Morgoth's Iron Crown as a fun piece of iconography to think about is that Samwise Gamgee, ever heard of him, mentions the crown in one of our... It's that time again. Yeah. Mentions the crown in one of our favorite parts of The Two Towers. When he's talking to Frodo about stories that go ever on, he's talking about Beren...

who's Baron in Luthien is this very famous Tolkien story. And he says, Baron now, he never thought he was going to get that Silmaril from the Iron Crown in Thangorodim. And yet he did. And that was a worse place and a blacker danger than ours. But that's a long tale, of course, and goes on past the happiness and into grief and beyond it. And the Silmaril went on and became, and came to Erendil. And why, sir, I never thought of that before. Right.

We've got you've got some of the light of that in the star glass that the lady gave you. Why to think of it? We're in the same tale still. It's going on. Don't the great tales never end. We're in the same. That's a tattoo candidate for us as we talk about a quote. Yeah, it's got to be up and that's got to be a contender. Don't the great tales never end the best.

But yeah, Morgoth's Iron Crown is part of that whole bit. And so to have it here as this weapon used to temporarily render Sauron into goo is pretty wonderful. I loved this so much. We'll build later in the premiere to Adar insisting that Hal, back in the Hal brand,

Ben put his head at his feet in that moment, even though Halbrand is working a deception there.

that he has to expose himself in the same way to the same being that did this to him. That was really satisfying. But more broadly, the moment where Jack Loudon's sweet little face looks up, the framing of that shot, him looking up through the crown, which is just such... I mean, it's like it's Gollum looking up through the ring. It calls upon so many familiar visuals to us in the ring's verse. And...

Of course, like then we can think on the crown and ring connection and these symbols of power and these symbols of Sauron's might and his hold on Middle-earth. It was interesting, too, then to think back to in the season one finale and the evolution, a fairly rapid one, but the evolution in Eregion of circular form. Oh, it should be a crown. No, it's a ring. Oh, how many? Right. And like, again, the connection there, crowns to rings, etc.,

I love that one when Sauron was like, two, you know, one for me and my lady, Galadriel. Galadriel's like, three. And what did this moment when all the orcs are stabbing their fallen leader remind you of, Mallory Rubin?

I mean, it's the full Caesar. Yeah. It's just the croutons and the dressing. Adam texted me. He was watching the other. He's like the full Caesar. It's just, I think everybody of course is meant to think of, of Caesar here. You know, I never, uh, never hate an opportunity to think of Keira nine. So we'll be joining a shortly actually here in this, uh, in this premiere, uh,

Fun to think of Brutus. Makes us think of Menzies. All of our faves are here when we get to think of Caesar. So that's nice. Such a gooey pile here on the ground. Just so much blood. Just goop for days. So yeah, beans of light come out of Sauron's mouth and eyes. Very Avatar state. And then boom, it's winter.

Morgoth's evil in the books is always described as, quote, cold without mercy. The One Ring is always cold to the touch. The Paths of the Dead still warmth from people. So, like, this idea of evil and cold is something that Tolkien... If you're wondering, like,

Why would a guy turning into goop turn a whole landscape into winter? I think it's just sort of that much evil sort of expelled into the world equals cold in Tolkien's mind. Yeah, and we have this kind of interesting then fire and ice-esque story

Morgoth ice, Sauron ice here and the end of the Morgoth phase into then obviously we associate him. I mean, you're certainly right about the ring and the cool touch, but we do associate Sauron as well with fire. So like the pairing of those elements and then the association of like the, you know, of the Valar with like these ties to the elements and aspects of

the world and, you know, thinking of like Mordor or Mount Doom, the ivory thin flame, his touch like literally can burn. We heard Galadriel in season one saying even way up and forward with, even stone cannot hide the mark of one whose very hand is flame unquenched. So that was interesting too to think of the way that

cold and fire both end up representing these manifestations of unceasing evil in this world. Any other ice and fire adjacent stuff you want to talk about here, Mallory Rubin? This made us both think of Lands of Always Winter. I think for various reasons, this sense of like a magically locked state of bound winter, bound, lots of utterances of bound again, always a delight. But also the transition, you know, when we get to see

the children spoilers the children create the white walkers in a green place and then winter takes root and takes hold it was interesting to pan out when we establish our location in this season two prologue and then see the winter and the evil fully take root love that love it

And the last thing we should say about Jack Loudon before he goes full goo is... Yeah.

A reason why we needed a different actor here, different face on Sauron is because in season one and also in this premiere, Adar does not recognize the Charlie Vickers face as Sauron. So we need to remember me. It's like, I don't. But he was like, he's like, who are you? You seem familiar. Did I do something to a woman or a child? That was so wild when he just like went through all the horrible things he could have done to Halbrand. Wild stuff.

Oh, yeah. This was an effective way to just all these associations to the books, to the films, to season one, to getting your point about cold. It's the way that we know that that takes root in a way that does not break. When Galadriel is walking through with her company and one of the elves says, my hand is past feeling, that's back at the beginning of season one, and she says, this place is so evil, our torches give off no warmth.

Yeah. Oh, this is the way to go. How you know it's colder than the rest. So that cold, even though we will, the fire will, will, will be present to like that, that cold doesn't leave. Yeah. This idea that the ring, it can only be destroyed in the place that it was made. Like that this evil works its way so deeply into these objects or the people who fall under its sway or the very earth itself. Yeah.

I mean, this was something we love to talk about in season one, too, like the way that evil is depicted in this story and obviously how influential that where where it stems from and his and Tolkien's inspirations and then how influential this is on so many of the tales that come after, you know, a dark lord who's.

a shape, an essence, a shadow, a wreathed eye. That's not something tangible. That's not something you can wrap your hands around, even though a ring is something you can put on your finger. And so both of those things are able to be conveyed.

on like an elemental level in the story. I just love it. It's great. What's somewhere, something between intangible and tangibility of a ring? I would argue it's goop. And we have now entered the goop section of the flashback. This is when- I loved this. Jack Loudon goes full venom. We got an email from our listener, Kevin, who says, oh my God, you guys, do we still want to be all dreamy over hot Sauron who fucks when we see he is just ooze?

In a crevice. Yeah. I mean, the answer is yes. That sounds like we're ready to go, frankly. It was in a crevice. I like it. I have no notes. I thought this was great. This reminded me of so many different things. Obviously, we're in a very...

Voldemort in his little like befouled baby husk form, you know what I mean? Not sipping unicorn blood, but like, yeah, okay. Right, no. Yeah, in the goblet, in the goblet era. And

I just want to shout out quickly this rat, not only because Preston is such a big part of our life and our house of our experience now, but it's fun to think this is kind of the opposite of the endgame rat. We're always like the endgame rat, the real hero. But this rat, if Goop Sauron had not been able to first absorb this rat,

You know, wouldn't have had the energy to go bobsledding down the mountain in the first place. Exactly. Just flop over the snowy slopes. Who's to say one half rotation at a time. Okay. Again, this is centuries of gooping. That's what we're watching here. Um,

Would you say that evil does not sleep Elrond? It waits? I would say that it is yearning tendrils longing to be free. So this is our listener. Nicholas asked, what is Sauron? What is Sauron? More specifically, how does he become a puddle of goo slash a potential venom copyright infringement? How is he able to travel with such an extensive and well-maintained coterie of wigs?

how exactly does one go about killing him? Is he a wizard or some kind of godlike falling being? How does he exist as giant eye on a tower? Blah, blah, blah. Um, bare bones basics, just to say that like Sauron, um, who has many names is a Meyer, which is the same sort of class that, uh, Gandalf, the Astari, the wizards are in terms of like the pantheon, the godlike beings. Um, and,

How does he become a puddle of goo? That sort of non-corporeal idea that Mallory just mentioned is very important to understanding Sauron's future, so I think it's interesting that they went with goo here. Coterie of wigs? Oh, and we are certainly on wig watch. Sauron's a shapeshifter. Is he going to have Charlie Vickers' face for the rest of this run? Possibly because Charlie Vickers is so good in the role. But I think if, you know...

if we weren't so emotionally attached to Charlie Vickers and his performance in season one, when he changes into Annatar, that would probably be in a different face entirely, not just like slap a wig on him. So it's like that shape-shifting quality that Sauron has. It goes beyond wigs, but it certainly, in this case... Goes beyond the form of elves and men, right? He's like, yeah, spend a minute as a serpent. Sure. You know what? He does what he wants. Um...

The rat goes, a centipede goes, then a peddler woman goes.

Really? He just grabbed onto that, that, uh, carriage wheel. Boy, there was something about, it was like a sequence where he was, uh, in goop form in a cave. And you could see a little light at the end that reminded me a lot of the sequence in Laura and the Lord of the Rings films were Smeagol turns into Gollum over like a long period of time. Yep. Also there was that lingering shot on the wagon after he is sort of taken his new human form. Um,

where there's like a flask of wine that's just sort of dripping. And there's something about that. I'm working on something, something red wine because I haven't fully formed it yet. But later when he transfers it to Annatar, it comes at the cost of Kellobrim War's bottle of first age red that just sort of bursts all over the place. So it might just be like a fun way to do sort of blood without the blood. Who's, you know, we don't see a lot of

blood on the show we see black goo uh out the orcs but we don't see a ton of blood uh maybe on isildur's upper thigh we'll get to that later um anything you want to say about what halbran looks when he's newly formed uh in the world here

You know, if they want us to stop calling them hot saw down who fucks, they shouldn't make them look like this. I don't know what else to say. Like the shining eyes, the curly locks, the very visible smattering of chest hair. I have no notes. This was great. Oh boy. We are not. I'm excited to talk about some of the other, uh, uh,

startlingly good-looking characters in the premiere later. Yeah, Mallory has some interesting new takes. This was remarkable. I do. Yeah, I've got some takes. Some spicy takes. I'm excited to share. We're not out of the flashback yet, but we're in the home stretch, and this is what we want to say. We meet a Southlander called Dermot, I was going to say is how we want to pronounce his name. I'm just going to go with Big D. Okay, Big D, I guess. Yeah.

He only has two scenes, but I think he has a massive impact on us and on the story. This is a perfect example of like a one-off character that like hired the right actor and it could just sort of latch on to you. So, Carlos, will you play this clip, please? There's another life waiting for you. You just have to turn toward it. That heraldry, what is it? A symbol of kings long dead. Your family? No, my family served them. Then why wear it?

As a reminder that our fates are never certain, that fortunes can turn for even the most powerful. Grim reminder. Or a hopeful one. A sure path may crumble, but there's always another. Often, it can lead us someplace better. Someplace good. They say there's places across the sea a man can escape himself. Find another path. Perhaps another life. Come with us if you like. Or walk on.

Deep chasing death. Um, I accidentally cut that off too early. Cause the last line is choice is yours friend. And I was wondering if like his use of friend there was, um, what gave Sauron who is now Halbrand, like one of his favorite words to use when he, whenever he's in like full charm mode, he will say friend. Um,

Um, it's, it's like one of my favorite quirks of the writing in season one. Um, but also now we know what Halbron is thinking about every time he sort of like fondles, uh, that pouch that he's the, that he's wearing and, and sort of contemplating all through season one. Um, did he get it off a dead man? We'll talk about that in a second, but also just this idea of a, of another path, another way, a path forward that, uh,

Big D here does not know that he is giving sort of like hope and a way forward to the incarnation of evil. But that is in fact sort of what is happening here. But this idea that like,

Sauron, who was Halbron in season one, is there a version of him who goes to Numenor and just stays there? I think that was on his mind. Do I just go to Numenor and just be a guy here? Just be a smith? He told Galadriel that was what he wanted, whether he meant it, or could have continued to abide by it. On the one hand, I kind of believe... I don't think this was one big, like, machination on his part. I think he was just trying to find his path forward. What do I do now, now that I've been goo? And so...

I think there is a way forward, but you have to keep choosing as big DC. You have to choose good. We'll talk about that in a second. But he couldn't resist. He couldn't help himself when he was in Numenor. He just starts trouble. He didn't keep his head down and just smith away. He was stirring up shit in the streets of Numenor because that's just like his nature will out. I think that's just true of Sauron, you know?

Yeah. Even the draw to the forge, like the glint in his eye when he sees it, the way he pursues the guild crest so that he can work the forge. It's like, does he just want that because it's a relaxing way to pass his days and a skill that he possesses or because he has the ambition to forge a certain thing? Well, maybe a little bit of column A, but you know, how long could he... Certainly plenty of column B. How long could he, yeah, keep column B at bay? Um...

So this idea that Big D, when they're on the ship, because so Halberd has chosen to follow them, right? He's going to follow them across the sea to a new life, perhaps. And they're on the ship and they have this conversation about like, what is it, you know, what does it take to be good? Yes. And

Big D says, you have to choose it again. It's sticking, Big D. And the next day, and I'm just scared. Damn it. I'm scared of that word. Okay. You have to choose it again and the next day and the next until it becomes part of your nature. Right? And so this reminded me so much of Sam's monologue, another, I guess, moment that we love.

uh, and two towers is Tolkien wrote it. Uh, Sam says their paths were laid that way as you put it, but I expect they had lots of chances like us of turning back only they didn't. And if they had, we shouldn't know because they'd have been forgotten. We talk about this a lot when we talk about fate versus choice. Right. And so like the idea that like your path is laid, but you get to choose each step and each step you take along that path. Right. Um, and so this is Halbrand taking like with shaky legs, taking a step on the path for good, uh,

telling everyone to sort of like grab onto something, brace yourselves. Here comes a beastie out of the water. Yeah. But I'm not going to save you if you're under a beam of wood if I have the opportunity to save myself instead. Right. What did you make of this moment when he grabs the pouch? I thought this was great. It's a nice way to kind of close a loop on just the

plot aspect of how did that pouch come into his possession, et cetera. But in terms of the theme, you know, the Sam quote is a beautiful one and one of our favorites. This made me think also of the conversation between Nori and the Stranger in the season one finale. The Stranger saying, they showed me what I am. And Nori says, only you can

can show what you are. You choose by what you do. And we talked about at the time about how that reminded us so much of our guy, Ben do write an object, like it cannot make you good or evil. So made me think really, really powerfully of that. And then of course, uh,

this idea of like, does your past have to necessarily determine your future? Do you have those opportunities no matter what you have done to chart a new course there? You know, and we talked about this a lot in our primer pod. Like there are a number of very meaty Galadriel Halbrand conversations about this idea in season one, you know, one of our favorite scenes, that moment on the log, which Galadriel flashes like powerfully, right?

Oh my God. She has a horny flashback. I loved it. I mean, I loved it. We were thinking of that moment a lot and we are not alone. She is as well. She's with us. And when, you know, she said to him, like whatever it was he did to you and whatever it was, you did be free of it. And he,

And he says, I never believed I could be until today. So like everything that happens here with the pouch, this choice, he didn't fully believe in that moment still that he could be good, that he could really choose this different way. It was only then before they were cock block interrupted by that fucking soldier that he thought there maybe was truly a way. But then it comes up again. They call back to that conversation in the reveal in the finale. No penance could ever erase the evil you have done. That is not what you believe. That's what...

But Sauron said to her, do not tell me what I believe. No, you told me after our victory, you said that whatever I'd done before, I could be free of it now. You deceived me. I told you the truth. I told you I had done evil and did not care because you knew that our past meant nothing weighed against our future. And so what I love about this is it gives us that cause to really ask those big questions that you're posing.

But then also right there to see how Sauron has taken a beautiful idea, a sacred idea that it doesn't, it's never too late. It made me think even of Harry at the very end saying to Voldemort, like try for some remorse at the very end. He is positioning that here in warped fashion. He is saying wait against our future, not as a, because he believes he can do good because as he says to her, I see no difference, right? Between saving and ruling. Yeah. Yes.

Great stuff. Mallory Rubin. We get a sea serpent here. Fun fact, in Tolkien's Legendarium, a sea serpent can also be referred to as a fish dragon, which I think is incredible.

Thrilling. Genuinely. And it goes straight for Sauron, who is Halberd at this moment, and then takes a sharp left. I'm not messing with you today. We've got this idea of Sauron and what kind of demeanor he has over beasties, which is an interesting thing to track. It's suitably scary and also sort of previews for us

the moment where Círdan, with his new ring of power, sort of draws fish out of the water. You know what I mean? Like, throughout these three episodes, and I'm anticipating throughout the season, we are meant to be wondering, are these rings of power on the elves' hands corrupting influence? Like, should we be scared of them? And so connecting that Círdan moment...

with this Sauron moment I thought was really interesting. And even more importantly, connecting it with the warg eating Waldrick. Yes. And we'll talk about that. The most important thing that happens. The most devastating thing is that we've lost our podcast mascot, Waldrick. I mean, what are we to do?

Just when I thought he had been promoted to like series regular. He was, he had so much to do in episode one. And I was like, Waldrick, new star of the show. Tough. Okay. And then we're right back. Season, season one, episode two, a drift when Galadriel and Halbron meet,

And he says to her, the tides of fate are flowing. Yours may be heading in or out. And at the time we connected that to Galadriel's words to Frodo in Fellowship of the Ring when she says, in the morning you must depart. For now we have chosen and the tides of fate are flowing, right? So this idea that like in that scene, she's thinking about this time that she met a hot dude on a raft, right? But now we must also connect that to, I'm going to try one more time, Dermot, Big D himself, when

When he says our fates are never certain that fortunes can turn for even the most powerful, right? So the tides of fate are flowing. Yours may be heading in or out. I mean, the way that this guy who he let die on a ship had such an impact on him. And also the way that when he says I got off a dead man and I feel like,

I have no trouble reconciling that concept with what we watched. Like he, you know, as far as Halbron is concerned, that guy's already dead. No, no point in wasting time trying to save him. I got to save myself. He's already dead. I'm going to take the pouch and go. Great stuff. And that is our Sauron who is Halbron and soon will be Annatar. Flashback. Anything else you want to say about that? Just that he looks so evil. Yeah.

Reaching out from the raft. So evil. I mean, the glint in his eye, it is one of madness and mischief. And it is unmistakable. Galadriel, where's your sense of self-preservation? Okay.

The rest of this, that was like sort of the thing that I wanted to go like dive deepest on. And the rest of this, we're going to. That was a lore-tastic opening to the season. We're going to gallop through the rest of this a little faster. So this takes us now, speaking of galloping, to Kiernan and the Linden crew is what I'm calling this section. This to me, I will just say overall, Kiernan aside, I love Ben Daniels.

joining the cast as keratin is wonderful great stuff elrond is our favorite and we are so glad to be with him the linen stuff overall i think was one of the bigger sort of drags for me in in these first three episodes how did you feel sort of overall about this storyline yeah i and it was very prominent yeah very very very prominent especially in the first episode um

I think that this was the, and Lyndon in the first of the three episodes, most of all, was the one where I had the most moments where I felt this simultaneous sense of we're really like lingering here for a while. And should the characters be making these choices this quickly? Yeah. Especially when it comes to Galadriel now being a ring wearer. And we have a lot of questions about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But we're racing towards Lyndon.

Elrond and Galadriel. It seems that Elrond has just snatched up the rings and hopped on a horse. Just absconded with the rings. I don't think they didn't show it. It's just sort of like they're wearing the same clothes. So this could be like mere moments after the end of season one. We see them racing on horses and then Elrond outmaneuvers her.

Galadriel says later in one of the later episodes to Elrond, I've had so many losses, I really need a win. And I'm like, I really also need Galadriel to have a win. I really need that for her and for me at home. Oh, man. But when she rolls up, she tells Gil-Galad of this companion of hers. Incredible. He is no man. A true AON moment. Yeah.

I've tracked this a couple times. There's a few references. This is a complicated thing that rings a power. They are so careful, I think for legal reasons, to say that they are not sort of drawing from the Peter Jackson films, that they are drawing from the Tolkien text. But this is one of a few examples where they are lifting a famous movie line rather than lifting the book line. Because in the book, Eowyn says, but no living man am I.

But I am no man is obviously Eowyn's big line in Return of the King. And then Galadriel says, appearing in fair form to hide his true self and the way that Morphic breathlessly says fair form. Girl, get it together. You're in front of the king right now. I loved that. This was so funny. This was great. Oh, my God.

And Gil-galad's reaction was equally hysterical. He's basically in what we do in the shadows, like hiss mode. He's like, yeah. I think it says exclaims and Sundar, but he's really just like mostly grunting. And it's just like, that's actually, I think that's with love and respect to the musical moment that we'll get later, which I also loved. This is my favorite Gil-galad moment for being like,

lol it's sauron and he's like mother fucker and cindar essentially not ideal just very tough stuff for everyone involved in this conversation you never want to have to say out loud to your king or anyone by the way he is sauron you hate to see it i mean you don't hate to see it when he looks like that but you hate to see it you hate to see it the chest hair was popping okay so listen um

Throughout this Linden sequence, I think this is part of it. Maybe not drags is not the word. Maybe it just frustrated me that I felt a disconnect from the events of season one to the events of season two when throughout there are raking Galadriel across the coals for failing to tell Elrond instantly that that was Sauron down by the creek that she unmasked.

before they made the rings. Fair enough. That's not a great move from our Gal Galadriel. We understand why she did it. It was not a great move.

Do we not remember that she spent all of the first episode of season one insisting that Sauron was still out there and they were like, you're crazy, girl. Get on this boat and go to the Undying Land. Stop talking about this. So for them to be like, how dare you not bring this to us when they called her crazy for saying it in season one? Like...

there's a disconnect there for me, you know? Yeah. Interesting. So I had... Yeah, it's a good point. I had, like, a slightly different... I felt some disconnects as well, but in that respect specifically, I think there's a lot of blame to go around. Oh, yeah. I think that, like, if we think back to the... I'm not absolving her, obviously. No, no, no, no, no. Certainly. But, like, I think...

when we think of this idea of deception as a Sauron tactic, we have to think back to the fact that there was so much withholding going on among the elves. So like, I would say like Gil-galad basically,

did actually believe that Sauron still existed in some form. And that was what he was, right? Because there's that great- He says that after he packs her away. Yes, because the same wind that seeks to blow out a fire may also call it a spread moment. So when Elrond says, like, the shadow she sought, you believe it does exist? I think that there's an acknowledgement there that this possibility-

is something that Gil Gallad is very aware of and that this is what they were seeking to avoid and that his response to him is he's like, fuck, this is kind of the thing I didn't want. Yeah. But he's then as culpable as anyone because he never told that to her. No, he just said, you're crazy. Yeah. It's over. Yeah. Go to heaven. Yeah.

Just as she never said to Kelleber, Bore, and Elrond, listen, I do think we should make these. I think there should be three. Three, there's balance, great stuff, it'll work. By the way, I should tell you that Hal Brand is Sarah. Everybody should have just offered up more information. Some of the torturous machinations of the beginning of this season, some of the most torturous machinations, I would say, is how we can figure out a way that

Galadriel and Elrond and Gil-galad know that that's Sauron, but Celebrimbor doesn't. And it involves like dead messengers and strange travel times and all these other things are involved in sort of making it make sense that Sauron was there, left, comes back, and Celebrimbor is like still none the wiser. That's just like a really sort of

narrative corner they kind of back themselves into in this season, I would say. Okay. She said she was deceived. Did you hear Cate Blanchett's voice say, but they were all of them deceived? Absolutely. Great. Yeah.

Love that. Tolkien refers to Sauron as Sauron the Deceiver in the Silmarillion. Like this is, you know, deceive is one of his main sort of words. But I also loved it when I was rereading that part. He also talks about the cozening or cozening of the elves. I'm not sure of the pronunciation, but that's just a fun and fancy Tolkien way of saying deceiving that I just enjoyed. And once I learn how to pronounce it, we'll be incorporating into my everyday conversation. Yeah.

Were you also thinking of Cap and Tony when Elrond says, you are my friend to Galadriel? Absolutely. Anytime I'm heading into a pod with you, I'm thinking of Cap and Tony. So was I. So was I. So was I. I was also thinking of the fugitive here. This is a real Richard Kimball jump from Elrond. I don't care.

Oh my god. Amazing. Okay. Oh boy. So Gil, King Gil, like, and I got that from you, King Gil, Gil and Gal, Gil, Gal, and Hal. King Gil, like Sauron, just wants to heal the land. He just wants to make the tree less rotting and bring, you know, sort of the magic back to the world. He wants to use the three rings to do it. Elrond is a no. Galadriel is a yes. Yes.

This is a bit of a lore update because in the books, Galadriel says we should hide the rings and never use them. So that's not quite what we're doing here, but that's fine. Three rings. Refresher? Go for it. Narya, the Ring of Fire. Nenya. That's Nenya business. Nenya is Galadriel's ring. Nenya, the Ring of Adamant. And Vilya, the Ring of Air. Okay.

And, you know, the Ring of Fire, the Ring of Air, the Ring of Water is kind of what the Ring of Adamant is. And ostensibly they have sort of different characteristics. And I'm interested to see how the show decides to define those things. Because so far, later when Gil-Galad and Galadriel are talking about the rings...

It seems like they're having similar sort of premonition type dreams. So I'll be interested to see if they really try to distinguish the different rings as different sort of power sets or something like that. Okay, we go to the Grey Havens. Elrond is like, I'm going to jump off this waterfall, survive, and swim in sod and velvet to the Grey Heavens. It's got to get weighed down. It did give me a chill just to hear him say they must be destroyed again.

It's just, I'm like, how are we not thinking of Hugo Weaving? Like, destroy it! It's just... See you soon! See you soon!

There are travel times worth asking questions about in these episodes. I'm not sure Linden to Grey Havens is one that we should stick to that much. The Grey Havens are pretty close to Linden. They're like across the bay. So it's not far. So anytime someone is jaunting back and forth from Linden to the Grey Havens, it's really, it's next door. Um,

But Grey Haven is just a quick reminder for people because I think people get confused just because Haven sounds so much like heaven. I think a lot of people think the Grey Havens are the Undying Land. It's just the port. It's the port on the way. You got to go to the docks to get on the ship to go to the Undying Lands. And that's what the Grey Havens are. You got to go to the docks to have a conversation with your friends that will take root in our hearts and make us weep for the rest of time. Yeah.

For the rest of time. I loved... We see a bunch of new locations in these episodes. I loved the Grey Havens design. Tell me what you thought of it. Oh, I mean, it was beautiful. All of the Elven realms were gorgeous, but there was something about... So far, our time with Celebrimbor and Eregion and the Forge, when we think of crafting something...

I loved the much more like mellow hands on version of crafting something. Let's shave this wood. Like let's talk about the nature of beauty and perfection as we just work on the like angle and curve of a vessel that will, will sail you out to sea. I thought this was lovely. And the idea of like apprenticeship, because we see this tutelage and,

And then, of course, that's something that Caleb River will invoke later. Like, I put in my fucking time. Yeah. I was an apprentice. I worked. I learned. Now I should get to do whatever the fuck I want, no matter what the High King thinks. He's not going to take this away from me. And so there was this, like, I thought very effective beauty and simplicity to what we saw here. And then also this connection to...

you know, we talk about this idea of like, well, we'll get to caliber and bar God, Kelly, like creation and the, the, the power and like the inspiration behind that. And then of course, like where, where that can lead you. So I thought, I thought all of this was great. And just like broadening the, the, the character set. Yeah. And the world and the places that we are in like a sense of what a day can contain for people. I loved. And also like you said, Ben Daniels is here and who could complain about that? Not me, not you, not me. Um,

I also love that later when Elrond is, I don't know, sulking or whatever, working through it, he decides to just go build ships with Círdan. That's what he does. That was amazing. It's just like, I'm a ship right now, I guess. Yeah.

You guys won't listen to me about these damn rings. Okay. Yeah. The idea of the act of creation of craftsmanship, of beauty that you mentioned here in these like long ships and these boathouses, the curls of wood, all of that has to make us think of something we talked about a lot in season one, as you already sort of referenced this idea of sub creation, that the act of creation, divine God,

Tolkien was a Catholic creation, that all of the sub-creators, be they shipwrights like Círdan or myth-makers like Tolkien, that this is like touching the divine to the act of creation is like touching the divine. And I just think that that is a gorgeous idea that I thought of immediately when I saw them making these beautiful objects, these incredible ships.

That idea of divine creation, though, is that distinction is important to Tolkien. The difference you can't, you can approximate, but you cannot touch divine creation. And that is perhaps why Círdan says perfection exists only in Valinor. And then later, sweeping into Lin is like, I was wrong! It's here! Yeah, I have an update.

Ben Daniels, as you mentioned, an actor that I for years called Captain Handsome Mustache out of Rogue One. And most recently, absolutely chewed up the scenery as this bitchy blonde vampire in Interview with a Vampire Season 2. He's incredible and he could not be more different in that season than the wisest, oldest,

elf in all of Middle Earth that we meet here. And so I was just like, I'm admiring his sort of like, because he's been acting for decades and I really feel in the last like five to 10 years, he's had this like blossoming on the crown.

I think his turn is Snowden on the crown is a favorite of mine. Fantastic. Ben Daniels, great casting for Ciaran here. We're going to do a quick Ciaran primer because this is a very cherished and important Tolkien character. This is where I'm going to hit you with some mild light Lord of the Rings spoilers. But again, as Mallory referenced, we're not really that concerned about

We feel like you should know what happened in Lord of the Rings. If not, I'm about to tell you a little bit. You can skip ahead if you want to. Oldest and wisest, right? I love that. He's not leading people. He's just making ships, making beautiful ships. That's what he's doing. He is the captain of the last elf boat to leave Middle-earth. So he lingers longest there.

Galadriel and the rest of them leave. He is still there. He is the oldest and he stays the longest. And that is who Círdan is. He was a leader of men at one point, but now he has become a shipwright. His name literally means shipwright in Sindarin. Um,

And he was there for a lot of the big events that happened in Lord of the Rings. It's just Peter Jackson kind of cut him out for expediency's sake, much like he did Tom Bombadil. But, like, here's a quote in the book from Elrond. But if you marked what Isildur did, he alone stood by his father in that last mortal conquest, and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel. So when, like, Elrond's like, Isildur, no! Like, just imagine that Ben Daniels is like...

Right there. Happily. He's mentioned in the Council of Elrond is like,

Who's going to help us now? We got Galadriel, we got Círdan, nothing else. That's in the books, in the movies. They're not concerned with Círdan there. And then he is, of course, at the Grey Havens when Frodo sets sails in Return of the King. And here's the quote. As they came to the gates, Círdan the shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old. Say that his eyes were keen as stars, and he looked at them and bowed and said, All is now ready."

His beard was long and he was gray and old. This is my sweet spot. Put it on the Mallory Rubin trading card. The beard is canonical. We're going to talk about it when we get to the shaving scene. Can't wait. I do want to mention though, like a little bit about this. I don't think the spoiler because it happened in his past, Kiernan's background, which is really key to understanding sort of the moments where we see him gazing off into the horizon when we first meet him here. So I,

as one of the oldest elves of Middle-earth. He, in a much earlier time in the timeline...

Because his leader, who is also his brother, is missing, he delays. He's looking for him. And he misses his chance to hop on the boat and go to Valinor. He was supposed to do it a long time ago. This is the quote. Thus he forfeited the fulfillment of his greatest desire to see the blessed realm and find again their Olwe and his own nearest kin.

So that idea of staring off into the undying lands, but you're like, but why didn't he go? Because the Valar were like,

you got work to do, buddy. You got to stay. You got to build some ships. You're not ready. There is work for you to do on Middle-Earth. So the fact that he is staring off into the glimmering light of the undying lands on the horizon, thinking about the boat he missed and the promise he made and the loyalty and dedication he has to his craft and his mission to stay on Middle-Earth

but there's yearning for Valinor. I thought that's beautiful. It's gorgeous and anguish-inducing, and it's important for us to then keep that in mind as we think of the quickness with which once the little wave pops up, that's the pouch down. That idea that you already mentioned of perfection is only there. No, it could be here.

And the ring as the thing that makes him believe that is possible, like how that connects to his idea of yearning for that perfection. Well, then if you could find it in a form here, wouldn't you, wouldn't you be susceptible to wanting that? Of all the people who wear rings at the end of episode one, Kiernan's the one where I'm like the least, I'm like, yes, obviously. Yeah. Though also, yeah, I agree. Totally. Though also the fact that he just shows up with it already on his hand is like,

so iconic to me perfectionist here on my hand it is mine good luck getting off me i already decided this is mine but there are two more two more you guys figure that out um how did you feel when in talking before the wave bats the rings back on the boat uh kirdan says to elrond like you do your father proud invoking his dad how did that make you feel it made me think back to

A couple things, because we hear, you know, Celebrimbor and Elrond speak about his father and, like, Celebrimbor's calling upon these memories. But it made me think most of the conversation that Elrond and Durin had in episode four of season one, when we really get a clear and lasting sense of how

The legacy of Elrond's father is something that he does not believe he can live up to. And like, ultimately he builds in that conversation towards saying to Doran,

I just like the chance to have a conversation with him at all. So be grateful that you get to do that with your father. But before he builds towards that lessons, he shares that really revealing thing, right? For many years at day's end, I would look up at it wondering, what might he think if you were watching me? Would he be proud of what I'd accomplished with his legacy or disappointed by the countless ways I'd failed to live up to it? So like Kiernan saying, you do your father proud, right?

I know. He put his thumb on a... What more meaningful thing could Elrond hear? It was like, he's already seeking him out for his wisdom. He really put his... And his station and his influence. Yeah. And then he gets that personal reason to buy in and believe. And then later, when Cúrdan is able to convince him, right? Like, don't give up on your people. Don't give up on your friends. Like, all of this feels connected then.

I loved that moment. I love that conversation with Elrond and Doran, this idea that like, yeah, my dad is so badass. They literally made him a star. And so I get to look up at the night sky and I'm reminded how I will never live up to that. I mean, it's a thought back to follow. Yeah. And that star light from that star, which goes into the file, which Sam uses to save Frodo from Sheila. And we are all in the same story. They never end. Okay. Um,

Elrond is buying Ciaran time so that he can dump the rings in, I guess, the Middle-earth answer to the Marianas Trench. By having this conversation with Galadriel about the darkness that is still in her. Like, he is just really... They are bitter foes in these first three episodes. She's trying to placate and reach out to him. And he is just like, you know...

Was it truly to fight the darkness or was the darkness calling to you? Why you jumped off that ship in season one, episode one of the rings of power. And this is something that Galadriel herself has wrestled with is something we've talked a lot about when like this idea that her brother Finrod was talking to her about touching the darkness before you can truly know the light. Like all of that is sort of circling the drain here. Yes, absolutely. And like, even just thinking about,

with that Finrod idea, like thinking back to Elrond in season one, you know, his quest, like you fought long enough. Galadriel put up your sword, one of the moments you picked in our season one refresher. Galadriel like making a new oath, a new pledge to the High King, right? She's like, I will not stop until he is destroyed and I have put this right. And Gil's like, yeah, I know you wouldn't get away, wouldn't be here.

I'm kind of counting on that. I would already talk to the trolls. Totally. But that was wild, by the way, that threat was very specific and very intense. The, on the one hand, you're like, okay, the devotion, the insistence,

the perseverance. These are admirable things, but also like we know where that prior oath led Galadriel and she knows it too. Like when she said to Theo in the penultimate episode of season one, do not take the burden of this day upon your shoulders, Theo, you may find it difficult to put it down. All of that is in the mix here. I really loved the kind of like

very Star Wars-y escape is not his plan. Like, positioning Galadriel, to your point about how, like, Galadriel and Elrond are opposed here, I mean, God, we're literally calling on, like, Vader. I mean, that was wild. I thought that felt like deliberate language to me. There's also Vader language from Sauron elsewhere, too. Yeah. Vader is present in these episodes, for sure. The Professor is always welcome. Would you say that Vader is always welcome? Yeah.

That's a controversial topic. We can save that for another day. And then, like, yeah, to the Elrond-Galadriel rift. Like, the things that he is saying to her. Was it truly to fight the darkness? Was the darkness calling to you? Can you not see all this may be by his design? Yeah.

I think we have this response as viewers. My response at least was like simultaneously that Elrond is wise, that he is wise to say these things and see a potential risk that is important to at least acknowledge. But also like the hurt that he is inflicting is like real here. Like these are wounds, the deepest wounds. And he is prodding them. Yeah. And the fact that like specifically he will call upon that idea is,

of friendship, like the past tense or later when he's like, if you like, if our friendship ever meant anything to you, don't call back to the pledge I made to you, which then I think I thought, I don't know if we want to talk about that now or like when we get to that, but that was really striking to me because it makes us think not only of their history, but how Elrond thinks about the idea of an oath and a pledge. So I loved that as well. Um,

I, I think the, I can't wait for a future episode where we can bring some more like book future knowledge to bear on this conversation, but it is interesting what the show is trying to do to create tension around an idea that like some people who are more versed in the lore already know who's right and who's wrong. Do you know? Yep. That's a really interesting thing for the show to do. Yeah.

Before Kiernan comes sweeping in with the rings, one of which is already on his finger, our guy King Gil gets a song. Ben Walker, I should say, I first knew about Ben Walker. He was in this musical called Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson. That's sort of how he burst on the scene was this like a big, you know,

New York musical debut. And I have been waiting for him to use those skills and he certainly didn't use them in Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter. But here they are on display as he sings in Quenya. And I thought it was really, I thought it was a really beautiful moment. And then we get the distribution of the rings. Kiernan already has one. He does. He does. Gil, King of the Bling, Bling King Gil.

Oops. Tons of rings already. Has rings stacked on every finger, but one conveniently waiting for the second ring.

And then because Elrond's like, no, they startle, drop the rings. One bounces down ominously, I would say, towards Galadriel and she just picks it up and puts it on. Everyone's like, okay, Galadriel, who we are treating like public enemy number two, number one being Sauron. Sure, you get to wear one of the three rings of power. And this is a big question that Mallory and I have, like,

Why does she get one of the rings? I just, I thought this was really weird. Like, obviously we know that that ring will be hers, but I thought the fact that no character in the scene, I mean, obviously Elrond is actually challenging her and the dismay and disgust on his face when he sees that she has chosen to put it on. That's all very potent. But the fact that like Gil-galad is not like

or Kiernan is not like, uh, we should probably like workshop this a bit before we decide to wear this. It was just bizarre. Like weird. Very odd to me. Um,

like later she is not trusted to lead an expedition but she gets to wear one of the rings of power the rings of power yeah no conversation about that very strange did you like though in terms of what leads us to there and Kiernan showing up at the rings like the little just like uh the little the push of the water right as he's like he's gonna go drop them the push the it made me think again of that like ours was no chance meeting yeah

Galadriel Halbrand idea and like all of our ongoing conversations about the different forces. Right. What just happens and then what is some sort of like...

But I think what we're most meant to be questioning is like for good or for ill. There's like, yeah, there's like tinkling music cue often like like when Elrond. Yeah. Right before he jumps over the waterfall, he sort of like clenches his fist around the pouch of the rings and it makes this little like noise that almost makes it feel like the rings are urging him.

to jump or something like that. There are music cues and sound cues that make it seem like the rings are directing something or another, or I'm overthinking things. But the wave coming in sort of like pushing the rings back on the boat, I think we are meant to ask ourselves, was this...

blessing from the gods or something more sinister that brought the ring to Cúrdan's hand, you know? Yeah. Yeah, and, like, I think your point about what the future holds and who's ultimately, like, right or wrong is definitely a good thing for us to always have in the back of our minds. But I think in terms of, like, the characters don't know that yet. Exactly. And so, like, you know, for us to have the same questions that the characters have, like, for Elrond to be the one who's, like...

Like, I loved when he said to Galadriel in the... Now I'm jumping around. I'm sorry. Like, in the second episode. But this made me think of it like...

why are you, like, she's like, you know the reason. He's like, I'm asking if you know it, right? And there's that conversation about like, why are you so afraid to just even acknowledge that this might be possible? That he might have influenced this outcome, that we might be ensnared in a plan. And like, it feels so crucial to have somebody

in that plot line asking those questions and thinking about this. And I'm glad it's Elrond, honestly. Okay, I do want to get to that scene. I just really want to quickly say you mentioned Keladri Bor. This dream sequence that Galadriel has at the beginning of episode two. We get to hear the famous ring verse in the Black Speech. That's really fun. But for me, it invoked...

Going back to that scene between Galadriel and Elrond in that very spot in front of Finrod's carven wood monument, Elrond asks Galadriel,

to convince yourself you've done enough, how many more statues would you add to this path? So the fact that she then sees Celebrimbor, you know, with these yearning tendrils of evil drawn up into the tree and then turned into one of like a horror version of one of those wooden memorial statues is just like a really great payoff for Elrond's question. It made me think of that visual made me think it felt like a parallel to the way the, the orc is like melded into the stone. Yeah.

I love that. In the beginning of season one. Okay. I don't think we need to spend a lot of time on Galadriel and Gil-Galad going back and forth because a lot of it feels like a delaying tactic to give Sauron, who was Halbrann and then Annatar, time to get to Mordor and back again. But let's go to that conversation between- I do think it's a very convenient excuse from Gil-Galad to just be like, well, you left us no choice but to use the rings.

You've left us no choice. Like, he's just like, of course, sure. Yeah, I'll take a ring of power. You've left us no choice. It's like, it's all your fault, Galadriel. Okay. Let's go to that scene between Galadriel and Elrond. Carlos, will you play this clip? Sauron looked inside you and plucked the very song of your soul, note by note, making himself out to be exactly what you needed, the lost king who could ride you to victory. You gave him everything he wanted and then thanked him for it. And now he has done the same to Gil-galad and to every elf in Lindor.

And that is why we need you. Help us navigate this labyrinth. There is no navigating it. The labyrinth is his. As long as you stay in it, you have already lost. I loved this exchange because we love Elrond and we love all this, but I also just wanted to note that

that I thought some of the language here, like, plucked the very song of your soul and ride you to victory felt a little charged. And I have to wonder, does Elrond ship it? And is he scared to ship it? Is he scared to open that tab on AO3 and read that fan fiction? I think so. This is, like, basically, like, the opening verse of Queen's Good Old Fashioned Loverboy. Incredible. Yeah, what do you want to say about Elrond and Oaths? So, I...

I love the one. Well, it's just one of them. Man, it's Big Craig is back. So when...

When Galadriel says, like, you promised me once that if but a whisper of a rumor of what I feared proved true, you would not rest until it was put right. And he says, if our friendship ever meant anything to you, please leave. Very intense. Very intense moment. Bye. Like, the look on his face, it's just, he's like, I actually can't believe that you would invoke this right now. Also, I thought just the entry of her, like, being like, we're to coax you willingly was quite...

Also, when she reaches out beseechingly to him and he grabs her hand with his look on his face and then just pulls it away and is like, no. Yes. Yeah. So this felt like, okay, when he said that, he meant it. But also, we immediately saw him go to Gil-Galad after that and they had that conversation about... In season one, yeah. In season one at the beginning, right? Yeah.

He makes that pledge to her. Don't worry. If Sarah shows up, I'll take care of it. You go to Val. With my diplomacy. Politician goes to speak to Gilgallad. And we, they have that conversation about like duty and friendship being mingled that we'd love to talk about. Then we build toward the end of the season. And he's like, I fucked this up once. I'm not going to do it again.

But then immediately she doesn't tell him that Hal Brand is Sauron. What I love about this most of all is that this feels, while these stakes are very high and the particulars are very unique, very true to me to like a real relationship, right? Like it's not linear. It's not easy. You want to be there for your friends and people you love, but then they do things that disappoint or confuse you. You have to like navigate how you can put them first with how you can kind of protect yourself. The thing that you're

you believe. Elrond is in a very like, I know that I am right. I know that I am right and you are wrong headspace. The thing that he is resenting is that Galadriel is in the exact same headspace. They just see it differently. They're both dug in and think that they see with clear eyes what the right path forward is. And so then you have to call upon, well, what is most sacred to you? What is most dear? Is it

the mission? Is it Middle Earth? Is it the elves? Is it building bonds of fellowship outside of your realm or your community? And we know what the answer for Elrond is because one of the most meaningful and successful things in season one, obviously we loved his relationship with Galadriel, was his relationship with

Durin. Absolutely. And the friendship, their friendship, what that tells us about what could be possible between elves, dwarves, between different communities across Middle Earth, building fellowship and found family. And when he realized what was

the truth of the Mithril plot was and how he had been used as a pawn by people who did not respect him enough to tell him the truth. He said to Gilgalad, I swore an oath to Durin and to some that may now hold little weight, but in my esteem, it is by such things our very souls are bound. I do not intend to let mine slip away on the basis of a mere hope. But then what choice did he have to make?

What compromise did he have to make to the thing that he holds most sacred? And so, like, this is the great conflict in Elrond's heart. I don't know if you've heard this. Oh, what? But conflict in the human or half-elven heart. What? It's the only thing worth writing about. Wow, profound. And so, like, these different things that are pulling on Elrond, because we know that that pledge that he made to Galadriel is sacred to him, but she is asking him to adhere to it in a way that violates something Elrond's.

else that he holds dear and so he is he's torn yeah he is like me often on a podcast at war with himself and i love to watch it i thought this was great of two minds equally thematically important is kirtan's beard um and that's a joke but also not because i just want to say great um

This is something that I learned while sort of digging into Cureton's whole past and thing. Cureton, we meet him in episode one. He's got a beard. And as we read that description from Return of the King, when they meet him at the Grey Havens, when Frodo meets him, the Mallory special, long grey hair and a beard, right? That one sentence has sent Tolkien scholars into, I can only describe it as a tizzy, right?

for a long time in the Tolkien scholarly circles. Why does Círdan have a beard when most, or let's say all of the other elves are famously bearded?

clean of face no one has stubble they are and and eerily in rings of power they don't even have sideburns it always trips me out like when we see a side profile of gil and there's just like no sideburn there by his ear um

So why does Cure didn't have one? And there isn't a satisfying answer. And we should just say that Tolkien was like forever working and noodling on the legendarium. So there are plenty of contradictions that happen inside of Tolkien. So that's like a perfectly fine thing to think about, but yeah,

Digging through, I did find an academic paper titled, Why Does Cureton Have a Beard? This is something that the Tolkien Scholars have been thinking about for a long time. So what I love is that they gave us both, right? They gave us the canonical Cureton beard in the first episode, and then they had him shaving with a seashell in episode two. So they're like, he has a beard, he doesn't have a beard. It's both. And JD and Patrick...

um patrick k and jd payne the showrunners of show as you know we've talked to them they've given a million different interviews what is so clear is that they love tolkien and they love stuff like this and so this is just very clearly them playing with this thing that has just bamboozled tolkien scholars for so long but um not bamboozled befuddled more um but uh

But I think Christopher Tolkien once said, like, you know, writing in the various letters and unfinished tales, et cetera, Tolkien never said every elf does not have facial hair. It's just something sort of that we have intuited. Usually they don't, and it's definitely how they've been depicted. But, you know, similar to, we'll talk about, you know, dwarves. Like, let's just say, like, Disa...

When you look at Disa, a beautiful woman, you can say either she is heavily contour along her jawline or there is something beardish there. And they are just sort of straddling the line on Disa and Dwarven women beards. And they're having their cake and eating it too with Cureton and his beard here. And I just am really here for it. I think it's really fun. Great stuff. The very brief just shot of him shaving with this seashell was frankly remarkable. Yeah.

Okay, we already sort of mentioned Círdan and Elrond's conversation about, you know, trusting your friends. And then Elrond and Galadriel are off on an expedition to get to Kel Brimbor. How many episodes will it take them to get there? We don't know because of travel times in this show. This was confusing. Yeah. The travel time part here. Yeah. Yeah. Based on how quickly other people are moving around and other things that are happening. Correct. Yeah.

But there's no safer place than a Reggion. Just like there's no safer place than Hogwarts and no safer place than the Winterfell. There's two rivers and a tall. This season on Naughty Island. When we were new, they spoiled me. They even gave me a phone. But then it's like I didn't exist.

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Just go to the Wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. Think wall. Genuinely remarkable. Penetrable. It's genuinely remarkable. Okay, let's go to Kosovo. Oh, Gil, please. Let me say something. Yeah. Elrond is my favorite character on the show.

I really enjoy being with some other characters. There are things I love. There's... The episodes where we're in Casa Doom and the episodes where we're not, I have a pretty consistent, like, this episode is better. It's just like when we're with Duran and Adisa and we're at Casa Doom, the episodes are stronger. You just need it. You need that, like...

Because there's strong emotionality. Like, we have wept to Dorne and Elrond scenes or, you know, Dorne and Elrond and Disa scenes. Like, we have cried over them. And also, they're just more fun than everyone else. And we need that sort of added levity to everything. Okay, but it's not quite that fun in Cause of Doom right now because there's an earthquake. Right.

bleak. The lights are out. We love levity. Let's talk about the sunshows crumbling. The lights are out. We just wanted ingredients for the mold. Damn stew, Joe. We just wanted darkness to rob us of the grubs. Big giant mushroom. Among us. Yeah. I know. Prince Doran has been, as happened at the end of season one, you know, disgraced and disowned and is just working the mind like a regular guy. Yeah.

And they're on a budget. Lots of blisters. Tough. Some of the dwarves are eager to blame Doran for letting Elrond in for the earthquake. And Deesa's like, shut the fuck up. Get my husband's name out of your mouth, if you please.

Here's my favorite thing overall. Here's my favorite thing about Doran in these episodes. We're going to talk about some particulars here. The number of times he unprompted brings up Elrond is so good. Is Elrond here? What would Elrond think about this? Have we thought calling Elrond? I want him back.

I love it. I mean, it's, I get it. I get it. They're great. The Duran and Deesa scenes never, genuinely never disappoint. Um, I always get nervous whenever a character in a Lord of the Rings story uses the word bound. So while I thought it was incredibly sweet that he said, you married a prince and now you're bound to an outcast. And she said, I'm bound to the dwarf I love. And I wouldn't trade his heart for a mindful fire opals. And then hilariously, it's like the opals would be nice though. Um,

I did get nervous about the both of them saying bound there that that that that made me concerned. And yeah, I loved the Disa just turning to the two other resonators and it's like, let me tell you, a songbird. It's not a filling meal. It's amazing. I was more scared for Disa when after she tries to resonate with the rocks to help them find a way to bring the light back and she can't.

She says to Durin, we can't hear the mountains anymore. I'm afraid, Durin. I'm afraid. And it made me think, as I do elsewhere in this outline, of Halbron's line. Sometimes I'll call him Halbron. Just deal with it. So Halbron's line. She's like Galadriel. Sometimes you still just call him Halbron.

Fine. That was such a good moment. Hal runs line in season one when he and Galadriel are in the cells, or at least he's in the cells in Numenor. And he says, what is it that your opponent most fears? And she's like, and exploit it? No, give them a means of mastering it so that you can master them. So Indisa's like, I'm afraid. I'm so afraid. I'm like, don't let Sauron's

hour on here you say that I would appreciate it just makes her vulnerable and that scares me so you know and this is at the heart of the the Annatar pitch to Celebrimber like the dwarves are working through something of their own yeah

Why don't we help them out? Yeah. And when they get there, Caliburn Boar's like, go ahead, tell us all your problems. This is a safe space for you. And Durin is rightfully skeptical. Okay, before we get to all that, and we're going to save some of that stuff for the Eregion section, I do want to shout out that we get a new character here, Narvi. I think all of the new characters are quite successfully integrated into the season so far. Yeah.

Narvi played by Kevin Eldon, who's a great comedian, showed up in Game of Thrones, among other places. He's the Delve Master, which I think is a great title. Sensational. And teeny tiny spoiler alert, skip ahead if you want to, on the doors of Durin, which you might remember from Fellowship of the Ring, sort of the glowing door, speak friend and enter. On the doors of Durin, it says, I, Narvi, made them.

kelo brimbor of holland drew these signs so narvi and kelo brimbor are the guys who make uh the doors of doran into the minds of moria and i assume we're gonna see that in season three or four something like that so um anything you want to say about king doran and his um

stubbornness or his regret. He would... Joanna, he would call it strength. Sure would. He would call it strength. I loved this exchange. I loved watching Disa challenge him. I loved the...

confidence with which she, because like, this is her father-in-law, but it's her king. Yeah. You know, Durin may be an outcast, a husband prince. Like, she's just very ready to tell both of them that they're being immature and stubborn to a fault and that it is not just their relationship, but the good of Khazad-dûm that is at risk here. And like, there's the, you know, later when Durin ultimately, Durin the Younger, will work, will,

Finally, at Deesa's urging, go in to apologize. We're kind of duped briefly into thinking we're going to see an appeal to hit the grain stores. And then Durin comes in to share this news and his warning. And this sinking of their fight and how dug in they are with literally the sustenance of life for...

for these people I thought was quite savvy. So, and just the language in the scene, I mean, it was, as is again, I think always the case in scenes involving during the elder, during the younger, or Deesa, like the language is so gorgeous and the performances are so wonderful and like,

It feels like they have the most. Stubborn strength. Yeah. It feels like they have the most fun writing for the dwarves. You can feel it. All of the rock mining based metaphors that they work in. But just even when they don't, the language is just richer when it comes to the dwarves. I love it. I imagine it does take strength to keep your wounded heart so tightly bound it can barely be. Yeah.

Disa, what a queen. I love her. Okay. So we're going to come back to the dwarves, but we'll just say they get an invitation to go to Eregion and we will pick it up later in that section, which takes us now to Numenor, which I would argue is sort of, along with Linden, another somewhat challenging part of the story, at least for me, but maybe not for you because...

Hot Daddy Elendil is here and... He looks great. He looks great. No, I agree. I think they're actually, they're good comps because some of my favorite characters to spend time with are in those storylines. And I think undeniably some of the most interesting ideas are in those storylines. But there are so many participants and stakeholders and so many dynamics we need to establish. And then as a result of that, so many questions of stake and pace that...

that I think there are inconsistencies with how successful those scenes are. And, you know, you can get a moment that just like wows you. Like I thought Valendiel coming up to challenge Kevin was honestly incredible. Wonderful.

Even though right before that, right before his challenge, I'm like, am I actually supposed to believe that Farazan, a character we're really interested in, is dumb enough to sit at this table and let his drunk son talk shit for all to hear? And he does say, like, the else should be quiet. But, like, I'm just like, I don't believe that that conversation would take place there. Just as in season one, he, like, gives the little

eye to like the spice sellers to like leave but it's like would they be having that conversation about how the how Muriel's mission which they don't agree with could benefit them in the end out in the open there are just like little things like that in the Numenor plot that I think could stand to be tighter

effectively and and muriel was really is really frustrating to me in the sequence because as much as we admire like what a like kind-hearted soft-hearted leader she is she just fumbles the bag again and again to command respect and that is really frustrating to me um because we what we get here is a coup and you know a bloodless coup and you know i'm like muriel i'm

feel like there are some things you could have done to prevent this, but she mostly just sort of like stands there and speaks for the emotions of the Numenoreans, which is beautiful. But in this politically fraught moment, which she is aware of because of the very beginning, Lord Belzegar, who might actually be my new favorite character because you know how much I like an older courtier, like in the vein of

you know, Beesbury and Simon Strong. I'm just like, Belzegar, of course, is like a different shade of this. He is a schemer and a piece of shit, but I just really enjoyed him throughout, honestly. And Will Keane, played by Will Keane, who was really great in HBO's His Dark Materials. It was fun to see him here. I have, so your Muriel point, I was thinking a lot of, I mean, okay, listen. Everyone's mourning. They've lost a lot of people.

A citizen of Numenor slapped the queen region in the fucking face in plain sight. And it made me think of Rhaenyra. Yeah, exactly. And the number of lines in season two where Rhaenyra is like, don't mistake my mercy for pliancy. And like where that line is, because there is like a generosity of spirit and a graciousness on display for Muriel that I think is commendable.

But like you, you have to be able to balance that with maintaining some level of control and respect. And then like, I don't want to let my guy Elendil off the hook here either.

I will say, let me just say once again, as I will every episode, he looks great. I ship it. I think these two, I just really want these two to fuck and I can't wait to watch it. Like, I just simply cannot wait. I think I really feel the chemistry between them, these little moments. Like later, during the riot at the coronation, the way he's like trying to get to her. Just desperately trying to reach her. It's like, take my hand. Loved it. No notes. But he hears his daughter, Arianne,

say, you speak so freely of dead kings that you refuse to utter your own son's name. You blame yourself, but you needn't. True blame belongs to another. That is not the way that she says it. I don't know why I'm saying it that way, but that's what she says. And he's just like, what are you talking about? But doesn't like drill down with her on, seems like you're working through something. Are you about to perhaps offer up the most crucial intel that will allow them to stage this coup? You seem to have had...

A hardcore villain makeover in season two. A real heel turn. Something has transpired. I would like as your father to ask you some questions. They planned for this in season one. It's not like coming out of nowhere. This is like building in season one. But it was just like the way they styled her this season, like the way that she's wearing her hair, the earrings, like the whole thing. It's just like a real sort of villain makeover for A.R. in this section. So, yes.

That is a moment that we would love to hear from Melendil. I was also thinking of Rhaenyra. I mean, basically, Doran allows some miner to shove him, the, let's say, temporarily disgraced Prince of Khazad-dûm to the ground. Merely allows someone to slap her in the face. And I'm just sort of like, I'm not a royalist by nature, but I'm just like thinking about Rhaenyra. I always love when you have to say that on a five. I don't believe in the monarchy. I'm not, but I'm just sort of like...

Where is the respect for our authority here? I was just stunned that people haven't been like losing their heads and their hands when they're doing this. But honestly, but the moment that I... Damon would have chopped a head off, no doubt. Exactly. The moment that I really was like screaming at Mariela, like, girl, you're in danger, is when Farazan just waltzes into her bedroom and...

two dresses or like bolts of fabric kind of, but like, and just gets really close and strokes her face and it's all extremely creepy. And I'm just like, Mariel, tell him to get the fuck out of your room. Like I know somewhere, I don't think your guard is Kristen Cole and he is currently having sex with Alison Dunhall. I bet you have guards. Please call them and get Farazan out of your room. Carlos, will you play this clip please? Crimson for Numenor's future.

The White then?

It'll show the people you are a new kind of ruler for a new day. They need change. The white. It is humbler. I mean...

I love Farazan. He's terrible and I love him. I think he's the best. Quick refresher for people. I'm partial to the red. I'm partial to the red. I'm partial to this fucking guy. And then he just shows up resplendent in Crimson. This was a great... Not everybody wants to watch a trailer because they don't want to see anything that's going to come. We are enthusiasts of a detailed trailer breakdown. This was a great moment where I got a little chill hearing him say, I'm partial to the red.

not only because of all of the dynamics at play in this conversation, but we were like, I'm like, oh, fuck, we've seen that. Like, we know he's going to wear the red. We had so much fun talking about what do we think it means when we see him in front of that eagle in the trailer. And I was like, what's he, oh boy. I mean, it was great, actually, because we sort of like fell for the same thing that like the courtiers who were like, what is his, what is he with this eagle? And that's exactly what he's hoping for. I'm telling you, Belsakar is like,

A great new character. Okay. It's going to be hard not to call him Beelzebub. It's going to be hard. Listen, just a quick refresher. If you didn't listen to our primer pod and you're like, what's the deal with Numenor? And why is he talking about a new leader for the future? The main divide among the Numenoreans are the groups called the Kingsmen or the Faithful. The Faithful are...

Friends of elves, Elendil counts himself as one. Miriel counts herself as one. Her father, the king, counted himself as one. And then there are king's men who are like elves are stealing our jobs or we hate that they have immortality or whatever the case may be. This is the divide. Elf lovers, elf haters. Farazan, Miriel has been sort of playing both sides and kind of pretending to be not a

one of the faithful. And this is sort of what Farazan is like, let's, okay, let's do it. We're, we're putting aside the,

Our past where we were friends with the elves and we're just moving forward with our new political party where we wear red and we say, fuck elves. And that is the new state. And she's like, nope, I'm going to wear the same thing my dad wore because guess what? I am an Elf-Aethel. And that's why it's such a big deal when the Palantir is exposed. And she's like, that's my Elfstone. Miro, why? Why did you say that? Okay. Anyway. Yeah.

Yeah. And then the eagles, the giant eagles who we've seen in Lord of the Rings and in The Hobbit. This was a thrill. You know, we were excited to see it in the trailer. The reason they're such a big deal, besides the fact that they're giant, is that they are messengers for Manwe, the holiest of the Valar.

The giant eagles sort of confer with him, bring back messages to him. There is no lore history about them blessing the new leader at Numenor. That's not really sort of in the text, but it's not hard to sort of put those two things together. Here's what's really interesting about this, and also the warg that we'll get to that you alluded to that is chained up in Adar's camp.

In the books, the eagles talk. The wargs also talk. The wargs talk to each other. The eagles talk to, again, among other things. Peter Jackson is probably who we can sort of

I don't want to say make responsible, but he made the choice that the animals were not going to talk in his Lord of the Rings. And I don't know if it was just sort of like, that feels too Narnia or whatever the case may be, but he opted to not have them talk in Lord of the Rings. They don't really talk in The Hobbit either. And I remember that was a big source of agitation for people around The Hobbit because the talking animals, the spiders, et cetera, were so important. If the eagles could talk...

None of this confusion at the coronation happens because the eagle landed and he's like, Mariel! Right? Because when Farazan's like, it's me, the eagle is clearly like screeching and flapping his wings. He's like, ah! Get out of here! This did not go the way I thought. This is so... Not to keep bringing up Thrones and Dragon, but of course, as we've mentioned many times, like George is, you know, so influenced, but then also updating Tolkien. So of course, as the connections are apparent, this was so...

White Hart, The Hunt, Egon, Rhaenyra to me and like fucking Otto and everyone like, you know, oh, hey, hey, let go,

That's obviously what's going on, but never miss a chance to do it. Like a portent for Aegon. And then the white heart appears to Rhaenyra and like, it's just Rhaenyra and Kristen on their, their ride after the Rhaenyra is like flight. And so nobody understands. And so like, this is a different version of that, but like,

the way that a sign or a portent or a sign in Numenor of all places could be misinterpreted is delicious. So I love, I absolutely love this. Yeah, I thought that was great. I love how quickly, like the look on Farazan's face when he sees the eagle land, he's like, oh no, an eagle has come to bless. I didn't think that eyebrow could get any higher. To bless Muriel. And then he's like, wait, I can turn this in my favor. Yeah, I mean, the third episode is called The Eagle and the Scepter. So like very much about these like-

symbols of office and ruling and stuff like that. And the challenge to Muriel, queen of lies, again, like Rhaenyra the Cruel, very, very top of mind for us coming off of Dragon Season 2. But that first challenge comes as Muriel is reaching out for the scepter, reaching out for, like, the solidification of this moment, the coronation. But Farazan...

shamelessly walks forward to claim that omen that is not, not is. And that was fascinating. I thought that was great. Fascinating. This is not the way the coup goes in the books, but I'm going to save that just in case they try to sort of incorporate that storyline and they may yet do that. So I'll save that for a future sort of book look ahead or to see if maybe they decide to add it into the mix of Farazan's eagle maneuver here. Okay. Speaking of wargs,

Adar and the Orcs. Mallory, would you like to open this section with any sort of announcement that you have about Sam Hazel Dean, who plays our new version of Adar replacing Joseph Maul from season one? I would. We love each other. We are in communication constantly. We text each other often as we were watching things for the first time before we pod. And I believe the first thing I texted you, certainly one of the first things I texted you was,

about the three-part premiere of season two of Rings of Power was that I was excited to tell you

That I had a take on someone who I thought looked fucking great, surprisingly hot this season. And you, with a quickness that I felt both alarmed by, but also seen and known by, you guessed that it was, in fact, Adar. I got it in, too. You did. And that made me feel good about myself, yes. It made me feel good about our friendship, and also, like, I had some reflecting to do. Yeah.

That this would be so obvious. It is something about, you know, obviously Adar is meant to be repellent. But I was like, I'm sorry, but we like to just speak our truths on this pod. And multiple times watching, I was like, is Adar hot? Like, is he hot now? I don't know that he is meant to be repellent because he's like, in contrast to his children, the Uruk, right?

Right? He's supposed to be like a tormented... He's not looking like Lug. No. Yet. He's not got like... Constantly got like black goo in his mouth. But like... Yeah. He's... He was an elf. Right? And so like he's got that elven armor. He's got that great... I think a great wig. Genuinely. The hair looks fantastic. The high cheekbones. Like it's all sort of working. Yes. There's like the kind of like...

curdled milk like quality to the skin that is, I think, meant to be off putting in addition to the way that he's constantly like, you know, I'm not a God, not yet. But something about the shininess of the hair and the glint of the eye. There's a sheen and a glimmer on his eyes that I just found. I'm sorry. Captivating. I thought it was really good. I liked all the at our stuff and all the we don't spend a ton of time in this camp.

But obviously our guy, Waldrick, who we already mentioned, has a starring role until he's gone. We get the branding ceremony, which comes into play, of course, with Isildur's storyline. This very useful way we have the Mark of Adar, as it is called, to know who has been the knee and who hasn't. And then we've got Sauron's latest gambit, which is...

Super, super interesting. Again, I think it's a little tortured the way that Sauron leaves Celebrimbor, goes to Moria, and then goes back to Celebrimbor. Like, that's a little tortured. But this idea that he rocks into Mordor, still pretending to be the Southland King, slathered in that accent, just like absolutely dripping around the vowels, like, you know, pretends to want his people to be freed as part of this larger gambit of like,

instilling this fear in Adar that Sauron is still out there and basically amassing Adar's army to point him towards Aragorn? Like, we're not quite sure exactly to what end yet. We can make some educated guesses. But this idea, you know, we hear from the elf commander,

over in linden uh where they say sauron intends to plant adar and claim his armies but that's not how sauron works as we already mentioned when talking about disa this idea of identify what is it it is that your opponent most fears and exploit it no give them a means of mastering it so that you can master them so what is at our most fear the return of sauron how could he master that

Get your army together, and I will help you with intel, and we will go beat Sauron, who is also me, by the way. And so in that way, he gets control of Adar's army, and all it took was, like, a few beatings and, like, a couple days chained up near a warg, you know? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting, too, to think about, like, where...

Sauron crosses paths with Big D, like he's marching toward the Southlands. And so then like this, this plot to go to Mordor, where obviously we see him at the end of season one, you know, the, the, the dark glimmer taking hold. Like I was thinking back to Galadriel and Elendil in the Hall of Lore that we, for an entire podcast that was that,

Hall of Law because there are no subtitles in season one. I shudder thinking of that often. We have subtitles this season. We're very excited. With Galadriel saying, you know, it is the Black Speech. It speaks not of a place, but a plan. A plan by which to create a realm of their own where evil would not only endure but thrive. A plan to be enacted in the event of Morgoth's defeat by his successor. And so, like, continuing to kind of noodle on, like, Onar executing something that

Sauron had a tie to originally. And so like, what, how is that playing into, to, uh, Sauron's decision to keep going there and like, or trying to go there and then going there and like whatever he is trying to enact and do, but like, okay. So I had a question. I don't know if we know the answer, if I'm just dumb and missing something, either is possible. The, when to, to skip ahead a little bit, when Adar, um,

makes the agreement. We obviously want to talk about the language at play there, so we'll go back to that in a second. But he's like, follow him? He sends people after him? Yeah. Because he doesn't fully trust him. Halbrann? Yeah. Is your read, is our read supposed to be that Sauron wins those soldiers to his cause and like sends them to

To kill the messenger elves? Like, he's, like, aware. We don't see the fault of the pursuers. I think it's... I think we will soon... And I... Again, we have not seen anything past episode three. No. But I suspect we will soon see who it was. That they're, like, monitoring him still. Well, I don't know that that's...

That the people who killed him are different things. I think there's other threats in the woods. Yeah, yeah. Because that was my question is like, was that unrelated or was this part of... Like, was that under Sauron's control in some capacity? And then if that's the case, is he already winning...

or taking some orcs under his control, perhaps. That would be a wild thing for them not to show, I think. Yeah, I was like, are we supposed to be, like, just theorizing about this, wondering, waiting? But he does know. Obviously, part of how he, like, manipulates Celebrimbor is he's like, oh, you didn't hear from Gilead? Weird. Which is great and I'm excited to talk about. But he knows with certainty that word has not reached Celebrimbor. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. So that was, like,

I was trying to figure out if those were all connected. There are a lot of questions about what did Sauron know and when did he know it? Because there's that question of like,

Was he directly involved in killing the messengers from Lyndon who we can... I mean, I laughed when I saw the case that Gil-Gal had handed to that messenger and the camera zoomed in on it. And I was like, we're going to have to identify a body based on that case alone later. And lo and behold, of course, that... Well, mostly because I knew that message wasn't getting to Eregion. I was like, this case is so ornate. It can only be this way because...

we're going to have to identify a body later based on that case, which is what happened. But like, so there's that that happens, but also Sauron knows that the dwarves are having trouble. Like, I think there are things he knows without having direct messengers. There's just uncanny things he knows, you know? So that's why he, you know, again, I don't know for certain who it was who, the best information we have is they were like being dragged by chains, right?

which seems like something an orc would do, but it could be someone else in the woods. And based on trailer alone, it feels like Elrond and Galadriel are about to have many wood-based encounters and adventures. We see them drawing their swords against all kinds of ghouls and beasties in the woods. Exciting. I feel like those...

Whoever is wielding those chains will come back around to us. Okay, I think that's where I am too. Sauron has knowledge through a source of power. And something else is waiting in the woods. But I was like, am I missing that there's supposed to be a more direct tie there? It would be insane for them to cut that, I think. Okay, so... Okay.

To go back. I vow to serve the Lord of Mordor to the end of my days in his. Before we get there, I do want to read this thing from Matthew, which I really agree with. Our listener Matthew says...

The show not being a mystery box was a huge improvement for him, our listener Matthew. It says, turns out when you let Sauron and the Stranger act and have more depth in their lines, it could be a lot better. Now, we loved both the Stranger and Halbrand, who was also Sauron in season one. But again, seeing Charlie Vickers get to just do the full everything he has at his acting command as he manipulates everyone around him.

All of his smirks to camera, like everything that he does is just like truly tremendous. And so we get this one where he makes a vow to Adar. A couple things. First, before he gets to, I vow to serve the Lord of Mordor to the end of my days and his. Adar is recounting how Morgoth made him in the first place. Yep.

And Halbrand, who is also Sauron, who will soon be Annatar, is on the ground and he's crying. Yes. Why do you think he's crying there? I think, to me, it felt like he was just having to confront the depth of his failure. And, like, it was almost the opposite of...

especially because he specifically says to Caleb Rambo later, like, are you weeping? Yeah. Yeah. And Caleb Rambo's like, no, I'm reveling. No, I'm not crying. I'm reveling. I'm having a great time. Everything's going to be fine. This was, yeah, like the actual person who did this to him, but also more broadly, like he made a play and it didn't work. Why? Why?

He is, in his mind, we have all, like, some of the stuff that we didn't go, like, line by line by, the Gil-Galad and Galadriel scenes, like, these descriptions of him as the deceiver and how, like, once he has ensnared you, you're more susceptible forever. He can alter your reality, all of which is effectively there to, like, set up what will happen with Annatar and Celebrimbor, of course, to make us constantly worried about what the future might hold for Galadriel. But then I think also to make us ask, like,

What went wrong before then? Like when he lost that control or that grip on people or the masses and for him to have to confront that so that he doesn't let it happen again feels very... That's interesting. Like you're the guy who beat me. I had to be a blob of goo rolling around in the snow. I think that's a really smart and reasonable interpretation. For some reason, I decided that this was like a moment of like...

for lack of a better word, in Harburn, like a moment of regret, not for his own loss, but for the horrors that he enacted under Morgoth, right? Yeah, I think that's there as well. Or possibly because Adar says, talking about Morgoth's lieutenant and his beautiful face...

what I was before do you think he was like oh my Jack Loudon face it was so beautiful I miss it yeah um definitely yeah except no because he's Charlie Vickers because he's Charlie Vickers he's doing fine okay yeah

But yeah, I think that is absolutely there as well because that was present in the moments of regret and laments that we saw from him in season one. It was like, actually, maybe I don't want to be that anymore. Exactly. I mean, I think that's what's so interesting about this depiction of Sauron is that he's not just mustache twirling the whole time. That's not an interesting thing to play. Okay, so...

Adar says, he offered me wine red as a blood moon. And again, this red wine thing comes up and I just want us to track it. When he was changed from the elf to the lord of the Oruks. And then... Oruks.

The moral ambiguity of I'm not yet sure what shape he has taken as Sauron, as Halbrand, who is Sauron, is describing Sauron. Good stuff. Obviously, he's saying, like, who knows what he looks like? Certainly not me. It doesn't look like me. Who knows what Sauron looks like, right? But also this shape of, like, what kind of...

man again a lack for for lack of better word he is no man but like what kind of man will i be on this choice again tomorrow that i have chosen and then do you want to talk about linguistic loopholes and i vow to serve the lord of mordor to the end of my days and his just stay true to yourself man and you're good here you never violated your oath if i'm on arm like i need you to save my day yeah did you say who the lord of mordor is um this was great yeah

Waldrick is dead. You already mentioned Glug, but we should just... But he lives on here on this podcast and that's what matters and we will not let his memory fade. We shall not. Glug is another new member of the team this season.

He has thoughts, feelings, hopes, desires, a partner, and a little Uruk babe in his little Uruk cradle. This is all part of just sort of trying to, again, for lack of a better word, humanize the Uruks. But I kind of like Glug, you know? Just the guy being a dude. Just the guy being a dude with his baby. It's fine. It's like, do we have to go to war again? Like, can't we just settle in?

And this is where I'm going to do a terrible Boromir impression. This is what I thought as soon as the hill troll showed up. They have a hill troll. They have a cave troll. They have a hill troll. His name is Damrod. He's the eater of dragon bones. Sick nickname. It's a very like a sort of blobby CGI creation that I think is only going to come into play for some battle stuff later. But I'm glad that you mentioned Boromir. He's very top of mind for us across these episodes as multiple elves are like

But what if we used to ring for good? Yeah. You know? Yes. I'm actually going to bring him up a little later when we get, oddly enough, get to the half Harfoots, which we will get to. But first we have to go to Polargeir. I just want to hand this over to you. Beric, we get an extended sequence with Beric. Tell me everything you want to say about this to open episode three. One of the thrills of my life. Yeah.

because I initially watched the screener and then like when I'm taking notes, do like a watch again on my, on my computer with a little split screen. Adam was watching the actual premiere separately for me and like basically live texting me his thoughts. And he is, he, he was like, is Barak the star of the show? And I was like, this is why we're still, we're married. We're going strong. This is it. Every now and then you are like, this is what true connection can be. Speaking of true connection. I,

I thought that... So we pick up with the moment where Isildur frees Beric. Elendil. And then... Excuse me, Elendil. And we follow Beric back to the battle scene. He is immediately looking for his guy, looking for Isildur. Makes his way into a orc ambush area.

Back leg, hind leg kicks and it works through a tree branch. Loved it.

What shouldn't Beric be put in charge of is basically my question. After this sequence, he gets it done in a hurry. That's my question. I think it's possible and something we should consider. And he makes his way into a, I thought, frankly, terrifying spider lair in the Black Forest. But he finds Isildur. He nuzzles him. Isildur says, Beric, my boy. And I wrote down and shouted and thought and felt, no.

my heart this was wonderful the love that these two have for each other later is yildir's like i i can't abandon barak i have to go find him and tough look for arandir he's like i got my own shit to do well like i get it you have to burn your love arandir was picking up a bundle of wood yeah you needed wood for the funeral pyre sure barak needed help

it's already dead. Bronwyn is beyond help at this point. Okay. A plager sequence is, uh, is what I'm calling this section and we'll get plager is a very important place. And I think we will talk about a little bit more in future episodes. Um, cause again, we're breaking three and a half hours of television down, but, um, I thought this was such a successful, uh,

sequence involving Isildur a character Maxine Baldry is an actor I really like but Isildur in season one just didn't really connect that much for me and Theo I actively disliked in season one except for his whole Galadriel journey I thought that was really good I loved Theo in episode three and I and when Isildur said Beric my boy I was like I'll follow you anywhere Isildur like sold great yeah this was great um

the spider cave i mean the fact that barrick follows his master into this is she loves lair like this is she love this is this is uh you know the giant spider from uh return of the king that's what samwise gamgee does we are putting barrick in samwise gamgee territory um no higher honor uh you know for a character it's just wonderful elite stuff loved the um

The parallel of like the lighting effect and the backward look to kind of make the connection for us. Yeah. Very fun. The spider cave was horrific. And again, I was worried that children would be scared. The spiders are so scary. And I had a really bad time with them. But it was great. I mean, it was so well done. Very scary. Very well done. Like the visual effects and the practical effects and everything just like looked amazing. Yeah.

Another new character we get is Estrid, this woman that Isildur meets on the road. And I really like her. I don't know. I thought you were an orc. I've never been stabbed. These character introductions can be so tough to nail. And I think they really did a good job. They had a very easy charm with each other right away. Anything you want to say about the moment where she bandaged up his wound very, very, very, very high up on his thigh?

Yeah, there are a lot of places that you can stab somebody and then have to bandage them. And very deliberately, they chose to make this like two inches from his, I'm sure, throbbing erection. The subtitles read, breathing heavily, ooh, ah, during the stretch, which I took note of. I don't know.

I'm rooting for Estrid. I don't think they show us the mark of Adar on the back of her neck and her like talking about her regret and her remorse to make her be someone who is evil later. I think this is someone that who has done something that she was upset that she had to do and has regrets around it. And, you know, like Isildur is going to find out about it, but also then hopefully forgive her. Then they have sex in the woods or something like that. So, you know. I mean, what would, what would big D say? Like,

Make a choice to be good tomorrow. Yeah, great. It's not too late. Does she have a betrothed? Who cares? Okay. Probably dead. It'll be fine. Bronwyn? Or alive and there to complicate things. We'll find out. Bronwyn. Bronwyn also dead. Died off screen. The foulness of an orc arrow.

I have to say, when Theo and Arandir... Okay, I love the visual gag of Theo struggling under two buckets and Arandir carrying like eight of them or something like that. Just sort of like... I thought that was just like a really funny visual gag. And then the burn from Theo when he's like, all those years you were watching us, do you ever know my father? And Arandir says, no, I did not. And he says, neither did I, but I know this much. He wasn't you.

And then he says everything we wear is ashes. Like, it's just, I thought, I mean, how, okay. I think we had similar issues with Theo in season one. Were you as like into his depiction in this episode as I was, or how did you feel about it?

Yeah, I thought this was an improvement for Theo, certainly. I was quite moved watching him. I thought this was... This tension with Randhir, who was trying to give Theo this advice that like...

is actually quite similar to the advice Galadriel imparted, right? It is a thirst that can never be slaked, Theo. In the end, it will drink you dry. Like, Theo could stand to listen to this. We understand why he is resistant, what he is working through, having lost his mother, et cetera. But I was, like, really moved watching him listen in on the conversation that Estrid and Isildur have by the fire, which I'm eager to talk about from the Isildur perspective as well. The...

like, anguish on his face because they're, because Isildur, they're both, they're talking about guilt. Yeah. And, like, Theo is carrying so much of that, not only for Bronwyn, for his mother, but in general. Like, we heard him say to Galadriel in the penultimate episode last season, like, I gave them that power. And she has some very important...

bits of wisdom that she shares with him in response about intention and what's in your heart, et cetera. But yeah, this was like touching and a character at this age, you know, it's like, I actually feel there's a lot of,

really potent stuff that they can mine here because we're spending a lot of our time with like immortal beings, beings who have, you know, spend so much of so many at the heart of so many of their conversations. It's like, think of like when Elrond and Durin reunited at the beginning of season one. And Durin's like, what the fuck, man? Like you've been out of my life for 20 years. Like you missed my, you missed like the birth of my kids. And Elrond's like, for me, that was like lunch. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. And like, you know, for us to be with a man, a mortal man,

In like the formative teen years, like that feels like a kind of necessary counterweight for just what the span of a life can be in Middle Earth and what every experience means for you in the scope of a moment. I love that. So I'm hoping that Theo has, yeah, a little bit of a little bit of a bounce back. Theo, forget the sophomore slump. Let's see a sophomore surge here. I love it. Theo is definitely, as you say, growing at a perfectly normal rate for a teenage boy. Just kidding. He's nine feet tall now.

If you compare Theo in season one, episode one of Ring of Power to now, he is just like so tall. But this is what happens when you cast kids. Yeah, we got to, I think, retire like the Mike Wheeler reference for teens who suddenly got like to, you know, NBA power forward height. Like Theo's the new reference. For me, the reference is always Walt on Lost, tall Walt on Lost. But yeah,

But yes, tall Theo is here. And yeah, I rewound. We're about to listen to Isildur and you just have to imagine Theo in the dark on the tree line listening to him. But like,

I rewatched that a couple times because I was trying to crack down on why it was so effective. I was like, who taught this kid how to fake cry? And I think what it is, is that Theo in that moment is trying so hard not to cry. It's like the acting advice they give you if you want to play drunk.

drunkards aren't drunk. Drunkards are trying to be sober. So like, it's like he's trying to hold back those tears. And I think that's why it felt so real and correct that this is what a teenage boy would be doing. Like listening to this is he's just like trying so hard not to cry about his mom. Right.

And as we're about to hear, he's listening to the sharing of a deeply vulnerable secret and truth. But entwined with that is an acknowledgement from Isildur that nobody knows this. So he's listening to somebody say, I haven't let people know what I'm really going through. Exactly. All right. Carlos, can we hear this, please? Nobody knows it was my fault ever since I felt bound to try and do something singular, something special, to try and find a way to earn what she did. I don't know if you can earn a thing like that.

I think you just have to accept it as a gift. One she gave freely because you were precious to her. It is a gift. Precious to me. It is precious to me. It is a gift. Oh man, this pings so many things. To me, the show is like often most successful in these moments where it is like pulling us into the deeply rooted emotion of the moment.

born of the past that we can associate with something in the future. Yeah. That is a difficult thing to be able to do. It's very hard to not think of the recounting of Isildur's scrolls and It Is Precious to Me and, like, what this, like, hearing this language here might have meant in terms of, like,

that is to come in the future. But also, this is horrible. Like, his mother died to save him and he didn't tell anyone. Like, think of hearing, like, Elendil say to Galadriel she drowned and it's like, but he doesn't, even his father, maybe especially his father, doesn't know this. Like, no wonder it feels like there's the world between those two. My God. This is a great, like, the,

Theo and Isildur going through their mom angst is a great counterbalance to like sort of the daddy issues that are banging around Elrond and Doran and stuff like that. Tolkien didn't really care about moms in general. They were often left off family trees, which is why Isildur's mom still doesn't have a name. And so this is sort of like, this is mom stuff is new in the world of Tolkien because Tolkien didn't really care for them. So there we are.

I'm intrigued. It's like interesting that he says here he sees her in his dreams. He's dreaming of her. We had that very intriguing stretch in season one when he's part of the sea is training in the seaguard still and like hearing these whispers and this called the West that like I'm excited. I feel like we're going to get a sealed her dreams and I'm excited about that. I would be frankly thrilled.

um will kella dream boar also be in his dreams uh let's find out okay so just to wrap up the pelagia section we should say theo also earns points when he's just like you still want to get your horse back meet me at uh you know at night bring a sword they go they're like pretty competent like they're not fumbling about this like

Isildur is pretty competent with the horses, like pretty quiet, just staying to the shadows. And the fact that Theo sort of swoops in to try to distract was very heroic of him. I don't know that they would have gotten away with it, but I wasn't like embarrassed by their effort here. I thought they were doing a pretty good job. Something attacks the camp to interrupt everything here. And Theo gets sort of yanked off his feet into the air.

I think we're meant to, I think the hill troll kind of exists to make us think, oh my God, is the hill troll here or something like that. But the first person to go was a man shopping at a tree for a really long time. I'm pretty sure this is the Ents. I think this is an Ent moment. Has to be. And I think Theo will be fine.

Very Enty camera angles on the hoisting up Theo. And we know from the trailers that Ents are going to be in the season. So I'm not worried for Theo and Isildur. I did have a question, though, because the axe comes... Did the Ents throw an axe? I was wondering about that, too. Is that something that they do? Maybe it's like a well-aimed kick or something? Yeah. Interesting. Okay.

Two very important sections left and not enough time to do it. Eregion and Celebrimbor. And this is, I mean, this is just the core of the season. We're going to be spending a lot of time here. Yeah. This is, this has to work. And I think, as we already said, we love Charlie Vickers. And as we said in our primer pod, or I said at least, I was like really eager to see what Charles Edwards does.

a performance we both already really liked from the trailers, Kell Brimbor going through it with a little more time because he was sort of like a late recast in season one with a little more time with Kell Brimbor to prep what Charles Edwards would be capable of. And I think he's just crushing it. I think Kell Brimbor is so compelling. He tried for like a half second to keep his word to Galadriel to keep Halbrand at bay and

Sort of. He did. He tried. Sort of. He's like, yeah, tell him he can't come in. And then he goes out and he's like, come in. Like, I mean, you could just like actually kick him out. He's so hot, though. So listen, and I don't know, maybe like maybe if Mardania, his like blonde assistant, wasn't there, none of this would have happened. But she was. Let me tell you what killed me.

Now there's the initial like, you know, very deliberate like Halbrand showing the back wounds, right? Oh, he might be injured. But the building toward it's wet and it's cold. Should we just bring him a shawl? It's like genuinely who among us stuff. And I loved it. I thought the Aragansians were fantastic. Oh, wonderful. And I was really worried about it. I was really worried that it would feel like a dragon. I thought it was wonderful. And Celebrimbor comes out.

with this incredible umbrella situation and a guy that I have called the brawly bear just this guy whose job it is to hold the umbrella thing over Caliburn Boar but Caliburn Boar is still soaking wet so do your job better I think we could have used one of these in Chicago we got caught in a downpour genuinely thinking of me trying to hold one umbrella over the two of us in an absolute torrential downpour in Chicago you did great that was very kind of you to share that was tough

The way that Halbron goes from... So, like, Sauron, it's very clear that he... Sorry. I'm doing it too. It's hard. We get it, Galabdus. It's very clear to me that he brings on the rainstorm. The rain starts and he sort of turns to his camera and his face is kind of, like, dark and veiny with the effort, it seems like, of causing the storm. Yeah.

The way he turns from that to just all smiles when he sees Celebrimbor is so good. And that was also like what... That was also that like summoning the necessary elements to spark this invitation in ultimately. Very much like...

a vampire, like, waiting to be invited in, right? Because he had, like, you know, Celebrimbor, and, like, that's a prior form, right? Like, Celebrimbor has to be, um...

complicit in this. It has to be, right? That's how, that's the only way the manipulation works. But at that moment, like the look down, us seeing the kind of effort and evil on his face as the storm clouds gather, that's one of the shots, I think, that Galadriel sees in her like waking nightmares. And so the idea that she is glimpsing a very key, a very key pivot point in Eregion, no safer place. Yeah.

Two rivers and a wall. Mallory, what could possibly go wrong? Man. Celebrimber loves his work. That guy loves what he does. I mean, listen, you gotta love your work. It's inspiring. He makes the Ithildin, yeah, before he invites Albert in, we should say, he makes the Ithildin, which is the glow-in-the-dark writing that we see on the doors of Dorian and Moria from Tolkien. They are wrought of Ithildin that mirrors only starlight and moonlight and sleeps...

until it is touched by one who speaks words now long forgotten in Middle-earth. Guess what? Tolkien can write. He's good at what he does. But yeah, so Sauron, who is also Halbran, brings a storm, which makes him seem more pathetic. He's just standing there in the storm next to his horse, just like patiently waiting for that invitation in. I was thinking of vampires. I almost brought up vampires. I was thinking about vampires with all the red, the dripping red wine just made me think of vampire stuff. Yeah.

Vampire stuff, go. There's...

I could. I know. The line from Tolkien is, Sauron tried to keep distinct his two sides, enemy and tempter. And that's what I was thinking of when we see him all black veined from the effort of bringing the storm and then turning around wreathed in smiles when he meets Celebrimbor here. He tries for a second to get him to go away. But when he says, what of the rings have they worked? It is over. It is done. It is done. Yeah.

And I love, Saur just like plays him expertly. It's not just he's saying all the right things, right? Oh, Gil didn't write you a letter. Oh, it's a tale as old as time, right? They take all the credit, leave us, you know. I applaud your patience. Yeah, exactly. All of that. But it's, it's the like, oh, you should ask Galadriel. Oh, I'll just go, you know, and just making Celebrimbor like draw him in is just, it's a joy to,

It's a joy to watch a craftsman at their work. It's a joy to watch Cureton, you know, build a ship. It is a joy to watch Celebrimbor, you know, fashion something beautiful. And it is a joy to watch Sauron play people like, pluck of them like a harp. So that's what we get here.

I thought it was interesting. Later, Caliburn says there's no way that Sauron could know how it feels after so many centuries to finally create something cut to Halberd's face. Also, the word he uses is inkling. You couldn't have an inkling, which we hope is a Tolkien, C.S. Lewis reference. Oh, yeah. The combination there of, of course, the look on hot Sauron's face is he's like, let me tell you, boy, do I know. About toiling for centuries. Boy, do I know about.

Long waits. But of course, then we're thinking about what we heard from Celebrimbor in season one and that idea of true creation requiring sacrifice and his desire to grow beyond petty works of jewel craft and devise something of real power and how susceptible he is not only in Sauron and

Sauron, Lord of Gifts land here, but by the nature of his own desire and ambition and how that, you know, again, that I think the so that you can master them line is going to come up probably

Probably more than any other maybe than Touch the Darkness this season as we call back to season one. And there's a reason for that. Like, everybody can be vulnerable in that way. What does that look like for them? Sometimes it's fear, but sometimes it's desire. And for many people, those are entwined, right? Because one of the things that you fear is not achieving your desires. Exactly. I would say that Caliburn's fear is being forgotten.

right of not establishing that legacy like he he like elrond thinking about his father he's thinking about fan or when we meet him at the beginning of season one fan or made all these creations will i ever like rise to those heights will i ever make something of such comparable beauty the fear is that he won't uh and sauron can exploit that so um

I'm not going to read you the passage of what Anatar says in the book. Just suffice to say that it is quite beautiful and I think a bit better than saying, and when our work is complete, never again will the world overlook you as the mere scion of Farinor, but forevermore revere you the Lord of the Rings. This did not work for me.

The Annatar reveal is awesome. I thought it was great. I thought the way that the, like, forge exploded. The wig is growing on me. The Annatar wig is growing on me a little bit. I think the little, like, elvish crown helps and just sort of, like, seeing emotion helps. A beautiful shine on the cheekbones. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, he's got blush and a little bit of liner and his eyebrows are different. It's a whole new...

uh look for anatar here but i just think just you don't have to say lord of the rings i promise it's okay you don't have to you're already saying rings of power you know we don't need to say lord of the rings yeah new wig new accent no longer the southwinder right we are using the posh uh and like a new register yeah too yeah that like sort of elvish lightness is sort of what it's going for yes um so when decent durin show up in a regan

And Celebrimbor offers to trade Mithril for rings. This is where Sauron could go wrong. If he has a correct read of what your fear is, I think he has you. But he misdiagnoses Durin, right? Because he tries to go for...

his dad, because Deesa mentions, like, you want us to talk to the king. The king's not talking to us right now. And Sauron says, bringing your father a means of saving his kingdom might be just the way to earn back his respect, perhaps even your inheritance. Yeah.

And Dorne's like, wrong. That's not the key to my heart. This isn't working on me, right? And so then he tries the Elrond attack. Again, I do think Elrond in some way or another is the key to Dorne here. Or perhaps it's just through Disa, who is an easier mark because we already know what she fears. But Sauron tries again, playing the Elrond card. And he says, Elrond said that you were the wisest of all the dwarves. Did he speak true? Or is there someone else we should be treating with? I mean...

Incredible, iconic, bitchy stuff from Annatar here. And Durin later, she's like, Elrond would never say that about me. I loved it. Durin is wonderful. Durin's like, who the fuck are you? Where did you come from? What are you talking about? I don't know you. All you need to know is, yeah. Let's not worry about the details, the particulars. I think to your point about us, it's important for us to see

how or when, in what way Sauron can maybe err. Misreading the, what's the fear, is a great one. I think also, like, in general, he's in a rush. He's in too much of a hurry. Yes. And so, like, that comes up in the Durandisa recruitment, right? Where they're like, can we just take a minute to think about it? And he's like, no. And Galabra's like, yes.

Yes. My dude, can you chill? This is like very intense. Give him a beat. It's like the line about the splits. Yeah, that was fantastic. But like even before that, the as he's building toward their forces in the world beyond evil, Celebrimbor, he's like, can you make me ring? Can you make me rings for men?

It was a little quick to go right to the can you make me rings for men? Because Kelli Brimbor is like, men are covetous. The risks of corruption are far greater. Now, I love that in terms of the substance of the scene, because we think of like men, men are weak with, you know, in terms of what awaits. We think of the past of like the watchword and like because of who they still are. But it's like, wow, he's just he's going for it right away. He's just like, do this thing for me now. I need it now. And then he's going to have to like, again, because it's like in real time. Yeah.

that Lyndon would know what's up and Eregion wouldn't. And so, like, you know, what he's solved here, once Celebrimbor sort of thwarts him in his, no, you don't have time to think about it, Darnody, so we need the answer now, he then manipulates Celebrimbor into writing a letter to Gil-Galad saying, like, everything's fine here. We're all fine here. Don't worry about it. This was, like, the one part of the Eregion stuff that, like, didn't really work for me. Tell me why. Because I...

So I think it tracks in terms of how Celebrimbor is being manipulated and deceived. That works. What we are watching play on Annatar, who is Hatsaron's face, all of that, yes. I just like... I don't know. I'm kind of like...

And in terms of Celebrimbor's ambition, the fact that he would say, this is my moment. He will not take it away. All of that works. I'm just like, wait, he believes that he can just write a letter?

Even in this state of deception, he believes he can just write a letter to Gil and he's like, I'm going to shut down the forge. I'll see you soon. And then no one will check in. Well, for by then time. By then time. Yeah. And again, as you said, rightly, like that's that is why Sauron's like, let's go. Because like, I can't believe that's going to work for long. But I don't know that Celebrimbor should believe even in this duped state that that will work for very long. So that just was like a little odd. Yeah.

The dwarves are getting their rings. Yeah. And I'm scared for them. That's all. Baby Durin tried to talk Papa Durin out of it. That was fascinating. He's like, what if you were right? And then he was like, cut to King Durin's at Eregion. I guess that didn't sink in. Anyway, ominous music plays as, you know, Galadriel keeps insisting, Sauron never touched our ring, so they're fine.

But as Kelbermore's about to drop the Mithril into the metal soup, I think that's the technical term for the Dwarven Rings. You're ready for your guild crest. Thank you. Sauron is like, I gotta touch the Mithril and do a little chanty chant over it before I drop it in. It's not ideal. I mean, he's cradling it in his hands. His eyes are closed as he like chants and prays and mutters a spell. You know...

It's worrying, Jo. It is worrying. It's worrying. Are you worried about the Harfoots and the stranger in Rune? Because that is our final destination. Here's the deal with Rune. That is exciting. It must be exciting for the writers in the writer's room is that this is a place on the map that Tolkien never really went to.

The Eastern Wastelands. So it is a fun little playground for the writers to create new lore. We get a bunch of new lore in this section. And so, you know, they're not constrained by what did Calum Brimber know and when did he know it? We've got we're sort of definitely off the map here.

It is our absolute joy to report to you that Poppy catches up with them almost instantly. I don't know why they ever separated in the first place, but Pop is here. And it's great. But before she gets there, the stranger's having dreams, right? She's there with honey biscuits, Joanna. And it's the best day of Norrie's life. Honey biscuits!

Well, you don't enjoy the feeling of the legs dancing down your throat as you eat a buggy dinner? I personally do not. I definitely was hoping for, as Nori originally was, fresh fruit to sprout from the stone trees, not just an ample fountain of bugs. But Nori seemed fine with that, too. Ready to make the best of it always. Yes, the dream. Tell me. The vision. We get a bird's eye or giant eagle eye, if you prefer, eye view of the artist formerly known as

or Druin, AKA Mount Doom. Uh, I might have bungled that pronunciation. Um, he sees himself in a lot of what he sees is like stuff we see in the next few episodes, right? The giant storm, the shot of Kieran Hines at the dark wizard. Um,

The shot of the acolyte getting her palm cut open. More storm stuff. The stranger unable to grab Poppy and orient time. His own hand reaching for the staff. More storm stuff. And a staff again. And then Mount Doom. So it's just bad.

Everything that he sees seems bad. It seems connected to him finding this staff or Gant, uh, as we won't talk about. Um, he can't control his powers until he has it, but will finding it also lead to bad things? Um, he's unsure and so are we. So now we get to this discussion, um,

Before Poppy gets there, Nori is quite homesick and we get this like beautiful exchange between Nori and I'm still calling him the stranger and not choosing any of Nori's names that she was brainstorming. You don't like that, right? To our listeners earlier point, I love this section, not just because we love Nori and Poppy, but because we love her.

I mean, I have some questions about the dark wizard. We'll talk about that in a second, but I love Noria Poppy. Daniel Wayman is like, I mean, we, we have been like just chewing over his like two scenes of,

with the ability to actually speak at the end of season one. So the fact that he has full control of, he doesn't have all his memories, but of language, he's just got such like a beautiful voice to listen to. And he's funny. And so that's, that's really helpful. Again, like Doran and Disa, you need this levity a bit. So when like,

Nori's like, Poppy's like, you already tried that one. And she's like, no, I didn't. And they both off screen were like, yes, you did. Like, it's really sweet. But this moment by the fire before Poppy gets there where they're talking about home. Carlos, will you play this, please? It is quite all right for a half foot to miss home. I knew it'd be hard. It's just, this heart's different. Strange how that which is left behind can be the heaviest burden to carry. I miss my home as well. You don't even remember yours. No. No.

Sometimes I perceive a glimmer of it, nonetheless, a longing for a feeling I can't remember or even name. But I know it's real, just beyond the sunset. I thought this was beautiful. One of my favorite things that we talked about in season one as we sort of began our, you know, years-long journey into Tolkien's work is...

this idea of like home and what's worth defending, right? We talk a lot about the good tilled earth of the Shire. You know, so Sam, Frodo, Merry and Pip missing the Shire is such an important part of the Lord of the Rings. Gimli talking with pride about what Khazad-dûm used to be, but what actually immediately popped to mind, and I think it has to do with the use of the word glimmer, is

is in the movies, in the Peter Jackson film, this isn't taken directly from the book, Boromir talking to Aragorn about

Gondor, right? And he says, have you ever seen it Aragorn, the white tower of Ixellion, glimmering like a spike of pearl and silver, its banners caught high in the morning breeze? Have you ever been called home by the clear ringing of silver trumpets? So this idea of a home, even a home that the stranger doesn't

know what it is, but the idea of home is such a core Tolkien concept that I absolutely love. Our listener Tim wrote in about this too, and I thought that that was really beautiful. I'm just going to read part of his email where he says, what is home? Is it somewhere else, somewhere better, the hope of which sustains and makes you better in the painful here?

Is it the thing you make here? If so, what cost to yourself and others? Is a home the thing you accidentally find when you went somewhere for a different purpose and then discover you can't let go of? Is it the people you're on the journey with or the place that made you what you are, which you cherish and protect, even if it means leaving it behind? I wonder what twist this show will put on this theme.

What do you want to say about Tim's email or Tolkien or home or the, the white tower of a Cthulian or any of that? Yeah. I mean, I, I love this and I also am eager to see how the show continues to explore what home means for different characters, because I think that's one of the reasons it's so consistently compelling to us is because it does mean different things to different characters and to different into each character at different moments. Like,

There is something sacred and precious about it. To the gift. Like Aragorn, you know, to go back to that Aragorn Boromir moment, like initially in their relationship in the film, you know, Boromir is like,

We don't need you. Gondor has no king. Gondor needs no king. And then so what it represents for him to like say, you know, my captain, my king, like I want to follow you. And like to give him the gift of that idea, that shows us something crucial about Boromir because that's the greatest door that he could open for anybody. And then for Aragorn, it's like,

I don't want it, right? That's... He's resistant to the idea of home and the embrace of home because it is tied in his mind to his fear of that legacy and that bloodline and this weakness that might lurk inside of him. And so when he eventually can push through that into an embrace, that is a hugely meaningful thing in his journey. We heard Galadriel say at the beginning of season one...

I promise you there's not a soul amongst our company who yearns for home more than I, but she jumps off the ship because she doesn't think she deserves it. She's not ready to let go of this thing that is holding her and gripping her and rooting her to Middle Earth, but she also doesn't believe that...

like, we hear her describe to Elrond hauntingly, like, what would she carry with her there? How would the pain inside of her corrupt the sanctity of what home should be? She has to, she can't go home because she has to protect what home is supposed to mean from the thing that she would carry there. That's, like, a terrible thing to have to confront. And, like, you know, you mentioned the Shire and that, that, that,

sacred thing of showing us what the characters love and believe in and hold dear and have to protect. And so then when Frodo says it, it has been saved, but not for me. It's just this, like, it's like the most devastating thing. You can't go home again. Yeah. You can't go home again always. And like somebody got to. And for Frodo, that was a gift and a thing that he can...

take joy and comfort in, but he couldn't go back to that life. Like when he and Sam are in Rivendell, Sam just wanted to see the elves and then for Frodo to say like, yeah, let's go home. Yeah. And then like he can't, he can't at the end. So this is just, this is every character has their version of this. And then, you know, inside Rings of Power, this is very true. Like, you know, Nori's nostalgia or, you know,

Isildur we'll see, but like, you know, we didn't mention Isildur's like, my dad left me, went back to Numenor. What's happening? But Isildur was always like very Moana coded, like what's out there beyond the horizon for me. And I'm glad you said that. I love thinking of how those ideas can exist in harmony of the call to adventure and still like the prominence of home.

they don't have to be mutually exclusive. And like, sometimes you find that appreciation for home if you then like heed the call. Would you see- My dad left me. I'm glad you, yeah, yeah. So when he sees, when he, when Esther gives him a map and he's like, oh no, he went here. He didn't leave. It's like, oh, he's like, oh no, no boats in the harbor. Uh-oh. Would you say that when Isildur left Numenor, he'd trade all he'd known for the unknown ahead? I would.

Okay. As a personal gift to Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson, in addition to the personal gift to Mallory Rubin of the barrack section, we get this lovely return to Wandering Day when like our, I don't know, like, I'm going to say it, our favorite part of season one of The Rings of Power is

The idea that Wandering Day is a sort of Goonie-esque riddle map, that the lyrics are also a map through this land, is absolutely delightful. Daniel Wayman has not only a beautiful speaking voice as a stranger, he has a gorgeous singing voice. And he warbles, sing to me, sing to me, land far away. Do not go look at the season two Spotify playlist, official Bear McCreary playlist.

soundtrack for season two there are spoilers on there there'll be spoilers but daniel wayman will sing more that's i think that's something i feel comfortable saying um but don't look up exciting where and how uh i i would or unless you don't care then do it it's fun okay oh man meanwhile at jabba's palace uh the dark wizard's lair uh karas gayer which means fortress city

We've got the Galdrim who are basically like the dark riders, but make them Mad Max. These guys would work really well for me, except I have an issue with their masks, which looks so odd to me. I don't know. They're just so shiny. And I'm like, I think I just want them to be a bit more like beaten up. I don't know. I don't know what it is about the masks. But the idea of this like threat, these riders who are following us, following us and giving us no quarter, like, you know, that's that's that's interesting enough to me.

Malruman, how do you feel about Ciaran Hines here as a dark wizard in Rune? I'm thrilled. I'm always thrilled to see Ciaran Hines. I love Ciaran Hines. I am still not over how little time we got with Ciaran Hines in Thrones. And I never will be, frankly.

I'm intrigued by what's happening in Rune, the kind of like, the return of our little moth friends. We saw Goopy, Venom-y, Sauron, Absorb, Rat, Insect,

being and take form, we see like the slicing of the acolyte hand and the blood and the reconstituting of the dweller. So there's a lot of fascinating stuff there. Also like this, you know, idea that he sent these trackers out and they come back and it's like, you know, like remove this curse on our flesh. Yeah, what's that about? I'll happily kill the halflings to get you

You're a wizard. So there's a lot going on here. We know very little about it yet, but I'm excited and eager to learn more. I think I'm about to shock you. I was a little mixed on the return of Wandering Day. Oh, were you? Yeah. I'm like, I don't, I can't quite wrap my mind around why. Like, I think I loved, I did love the thing you cited, genuinely. The idea that like, Poppy's like, you know, our kind have been like,

Going on exploring for all this time and the idea that like they are connected to a larger swath of the story and the world. That's really cool to me. And then like thinking about how that song is passed down from Poppy's mom to Poppy, et cetera. Like who else had an adventure that we don't know about. That's delightful to me. There was like a little, almost like gut digression

like genuinely like instantly like reflexive response I had where I was like some things are just perfect and we can leave them and like I think that's I don't want everything to have to be like redeployed as plot I think that's fair I genuinely think that's fair and I had I wasn't offended

I thought I would find it astonishingly moving if this ever came back up. And I was like, I'm not shocked that you had that reaction because there were moments when they were just sort of like exclaiming the lyrics that felt a little like cheesy. But then the beautiful instrumental kicked in behind them. And I just thought that was so beautiful. So like, I don't disagree. I think there were some cheesy elements where I was like,

don't, don't, uh, you know, ring the towel too dry on this or something like that. But I, but on the whole, Daniel Wayman getting to sing a little bit of it and I'm like, sing the whole thing, do it. Um, and then the instrumental was like, um, was really powerful, but yeah, some of the like black sand for my bed. Yeah. That was like a little like, okay. Um, in terms of the wizards, here's, here's my stance on it and we will continue to monitor the spot.

But I believe very strongly that this is not Gandalf and this is not another wizard that we know, but that these are the two blue wizards who are the unnamed wizards that Tolkien wrote about. And I think what they're doing, because they went to the east, this is a thing, there's Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast. Those are the three named wizards that we know. And then there's these two blue wizards that...

Do not have some names in some writings or whatever, but their lore is not nailed down and they went to the east and it's this whole thing. So I think they're giving us the blue wizards. It's not Ganalf, it's not Saruman, but they're coding them so strongly as Ganalf and Saruman to make it feel familiar. So it is both outside of canon, you know, in that they're exploring these wizards that we don't know a bunch about, but they're giving us a dynamic that we are extremely familiar with. Does that feel right to you?

I'm undecided. I remain undecided in the undecided camp here. I am compelled by strongly compelled by that case. I, I have like really no counterpoints to that. Honestly, I think the logic is sound and convincing. I think even like something like his cloak is really gray in season one and now it's really dirty and Brown. It's like, what color will it be next? You know, I will say,

The conversation about his name. But she's like, and wise, it is a fine name. Nevertheless, it is not going to be mine. I know. Fred, sorry. You know, it was delightful. The scorpion cactus thing. And it's like they're completing each other's sentences. Right. And that's how I found the cactus. Wonderful stuff. Um,

But don't you see, no one can give you a name. It is yours already. It is who you are. And when you hear it spoken, you feel your heart glow. And then Nori says, you'll hear it one day. I'm sure of it. We'll find out who you are. Now, playing with this idea, I think is compelling. That's compelling. Compelling and inbounds.

They're on the line, I think, of people being mad if it doesn't end up being Gandalf and they keep kind of toying with that idea. So if, I think to your point of the Gandalf-Saramont coding and we had the very Saruman-esque and if that fails, where then will you go? If the mountain defeats you, will you risk a more dangerous road when they have to go out through the like, well, I'd rather not run out of water and then die from heat the next day path. Yeah.

Playing with it and playing on our expectations and then subverting them, great. You got to tread carefully though because at a certain point people are just going to be like, you toyed with me too much and made me think this was Gandalf. Having him search for a Gand...

is in that camp. So a Gand being a staff and Gandalf's name being, you know, one of the first things that Tolkien ever, you know, did is from an old Norse poem, a list of dwarf names. In old Norse, the name means staff, elf, Gand, elf, Gand, elf, Gandalf. So he's looking for a staff, which they're just outright calling a Gand. And yeah, that's a little...

Just a little follow on your follow your nose. Yeah.

What I will say conclusively is I do not think that there is any way this could be Saruman because Saruman's arc is that he was on the path of the righteous good path until the events just like right before Lord of the Rings. And this guy is like, you know, saying stuff like, perhaps the blood I wasted to bring you before me should have spent on more useful servants. Like this is, this guy's already deep into his evil era. So I would say

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. He's got his whole like own look to like in the trailer. I was like, ooh, those eyebrows. But then you see his staff and like the red stone and like he's got his own visual tapestry here. He sure does. Yeah. Last thing I'll say. Yes. We find the well

I just, I love Poppy so much and I do not like her playing the fool of the took role that she plays here where she gets, I understand it's emergency. They get the water. It's good. But when the bell starts ringing and they're just like, that's fine. I was like, Poppy, Poppy.

One person can ladle water into his mouth. He hasn't been breathing. Is that how you bring someone back to breathing? Who knows? But like, Poppy, go stop the bell from ringing. There are riders after you. Anyway, not Gandalf kicks up a huge storm. Right after he said, we're none of us going to lose each other. The Harfoots fly off into the wind and,

And that seems like they're going to go into a great thing. So that's where we leave our friends in Rune. Oh, I can't wait for episode four. I've seen it. And that's the other thing about the split approach to the season. I'm like, fuck, we only have five episodes. I know. Like after next week, we're halfway through. It's wild. I don't.

Not ready to be almost halfway through. Not ideal for us. Perhaps ideal by Amazon Metrics for, you know, I'm sure they've done a lot of research on what it takes to retain attention. And like, I mean, to your point about pacing, like perhaps if people just watched the first episode, you know, would they have come back for episode two? But watching it all together, a lot of momentum in episode four. I'm really excited for that. And I'm really excited to be back here. I had so much fun. Same.

digging into my unfinished tales and my Silmarillion and all my texts. It's great to be back. All of that to do this today. So that does it for... Jo, I wouldn't trade our time in Middle-Earth together for a mine full of fire opals. Fire opals would be nice. Okay.

I'm bound to Mallory Rubin forever, obviously bound by love, bound to this podcast. Thank you so much to Carlos Chiriboga on the edit today, John Richter on the video production. John really doing it because he loves Middle Earth. And so John is in his element right now.

our junior rank with pal on his, uh, just being the best always forever. And his production work on this episode, Joe me a dinner on also the best always on the social Steve Allman. We're back with us soon. Uh, and we will see you back in middle earth. Bye.