‘Thunderbolts*’ Deep Dive
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Hello, welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today, the number one person I would pick for a life or death escape room adventure. It's Mallory Rubin. Cucumber, cucumber, cucumber. Hello. We're here today to talk to you about a little film called Thunderbolts.

It is Friday morning as we're recording this. Mallory and I have seen this movie twice this week. Yes. Among many other things that we have done this week. So if our energy today is a little unhinged, that is why. Mallory, how are you feeling?

I'm delighted to be here with you. Thrilled, beyond measure. To talk about a movie that I loved, and I will preview for you and for the bad babies alike that most of my takes and most of my conversation starters are going to be about Alexi's doordash habits and Alexi's retelling of the previously established canon from Yelena about the girl who took a shit at midfield. Put respect on her name. It's Mindy. Okay.

Spoiler for Mindy's leg. Sorry to put that out there before we issued our spoiler warning. Tough stuff. Quick programming reminder. So in addition to our ongoing usual Last of Us and or cadence that we have both been doing on the ringer verse feed, as well as our feed, we've got the Midnight Boys covering the Last of Us. We've got Button Mash covering the Last of Us. We're covering the Last of Us.

The boys and this pod are also covering Andor. Three episodes a week. What could go possibly wrong? I'm having the time of my life talking about Last of Us and Andor at the same time. The content is good.

And then this great movie, The Boys covering Thunderbolts on their feed. We're covering Thunderbolts here. And then also next week, The Midnight Boys have an interview with the director of this film, Jake Schreier. So there's like a little special interview special coming next week from The Boys. So you might want to check that out. Molly Rubin. Yes, ma'am. It's a lot of delicious, delicious content from us. How can folks make sure they consume it all?

I'm going to keep it simple. Follow the pods. Follow House of R. Follow the Ringiverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what? You can watch. Watch with your eyes. Through your little John Walker hat or helmet, whatever you want to call it. Exactly. You do. You can watch full episodes, full video episodes of House of R and Midnight Boys Pew Pew on Spotify or Spotify.

on the Ringerverse YouTube channel. So subscribe to that as well. While you're at it, follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing and send us an email. The inbox is always open. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Your Last of Us and Andor emails have been incredible. Keep them coming.

Back to you in the studio, Jo. Spoiler warning today. Anything in the MCU. Correct. Including the Disney Plus shows. Yes. And anything that's ever happened in any comic book ever. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to go too deep on the comic book front, I will just say today, because the Thunderbolts, as they exist in the cinema, are

fair, not just a passing resemblance to the Thunderbolts as they exist on the page. So we'll talk about some of those connections a little bit, but mostly we're focusing on the film today. Let's go now to our opening. Okay.

All right. So I just want to run down the the talent behind this particular Marvel endeavor. Yes. Directed by Jake Schreier, who did Robot and Frank, a great film that I love, and also the TV show Beef that Mallory and I both really enjoy. So that is something to think about when you think about some of the themes on display here. Yes. Screenplay by

Screenplay by Eric Pearson, who is Marvel's kind of go-to cleanup guy these days. And then Joanna Callow, who you may know from BoJack Horseman and the Bear. So if you're like, hey, this has a lot to do with mental health, that's because Joanna Callow, no relation, is like incredibly good at those stories. Story by Eric Pearson, produced by Kevin Feige. You might have heard of him.

And I just want to shout out, I got so excited when I saw that the stunt coordinator on this film is Heidi Moneymaker, who was a stunt coordinator on Echo, like, has done this, but, like, started out as...

Scarlett Johansson's stunt double. And so like the way in which Heidi has sort of like moved up the ranks at Marvel is always like really excited me. I think she's incredibly cool. And I thought the fight stuff in this movie was really, really good. So I was just like really excited to see her, her credit, closing credit opening weekend. Often we do these on Monday. We're not doing this on a Monday. So are you ready to project? Are you ready to forecast? Oh, that's not my projection.

particular talent. I don't do math, but... This has recently been established on the list of things we're not. Mathematicians formally made it. I was told there would be no math, but box office, we don't know. But deadline, off to a good start, according to them. The Thursday night draw. You had trouble finding a seat for your Thursday night screening in Los Angeles, right? Yeah. Now, listen. In...

Typical fashion, because we all went to screenings on Monday. A press screening on Monday. Press screenings on Monday. Delightful. And then, you know, wanted to see the movie again before recording with you, obviously. And I can't claim that I checked the old Fandango app more than an hour before I intended to step out the door. So that might have something to do with it. But even so, you know, looking for an opening night, Thursday night ticket here in the old city of Los Angeles, it was hard to find a seat, which was cool. And then...

I went to what ended up being a sold out showing. Like every fucking seat was full and people were having the time of their lives. That's great. I really wish it was a really fun room. I'm kind of, I want to see it again with the full room. The, I'm really grateful to my local theater was showing a seven o'clock Thursday so I could walk like 15 minutes to the theater to watch the movie last night. Um,

But the theater in my town is not known for being robustly attended. And so there was like eight people on my screen. There's no reflection on the Thunderbolts. Just like no one ever goes to the movies in this town except for me, I guess. I don't know why that movie theater is still open. It's like just for me, basically. As you know, I have a great affection for going to basically empty showings. I love a like 11 a.m. Saturday morning movie where I can expect to see no more than seven other human beings. But.

This was also nice. I have to say, other than the person two seats away who was sniffling the entire time. Other than that, because then my anxiety about getting sick kicks in. And I had a very robust, we're doing great on our face already here, a very robust set of snacks with me. I did almost text you because I saw a bag of Hi-Chew, which had caught my eye in a way I never had before now that I have such a love for them. But no, I went chicken tenders, popcorn, cherry vanilla Coke.

bottle of water, red vines. And I, I had quite a stomach ache when I got home, but also it was all delicious and a great part of the experience. When you told me this, when you told us this morning, you were feeling lightheaded and like not well before you got on this podcast. Do you think it's because? I haven't, I haven't got, it didn't occur to me that it might have anything to do with that. I also then did have more high chew when I got home. Cool. Um, because as you know, I've recently procured 17 flavors. No free ads. No, no free ads. But Mallory is like

running i'm really on a journey 85 percent high yeah no i thought i thought the lightheadedness was just the total lack of sleep and iv drip of coffee that i'm running on couldn't help without enough water but it might have had something to do with all of the salt and sugar that i've recently ingested could be i mean i think it has a big thing to do with huff and rido i love i love you having a full movie experience i love that for you i will just say that like

when it comes to something like a new Marvel movie that people are actually excited about or a new Star Wars film that people are excited, I like to go see it with a full crowd. A new Star Wars film? You're going into the time machine for that? I would always go see when we were still really excited about Star Wars films.

I just remember going to see the press screening and then wanting to immediately go opening night because I wanted to get the opening night crowd experience as well. Maybe we'll actually get to do it with the Star Wars movie next year. Maybe it'll happen. Stay on the calendar. We'll be back, baby. We'll be back, baby.

I will just say, like, for the eight people that were in the theater with me, you'll hear me throughout this outline that we have here today say, like, people were cheering for this or people were laughing. I have an eight person sample. But I but I always want to, like, know what what are people how are they responding to this? And I think I really like this movie. I liked it both times that I saw it. Same. I think I would like it even more if I saw it with a group of people who are sort of like whooping and clapping and laughing and having a good time.

The critical response is good. Yeah. It's good in a way that it hasn't really been for a while for Marvel. So some good scores, both audience and critical scores on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic cinema score not available yet. That will be available next week. So yours, your theater is having a great time. My theater, again, small sample, having a good time. Yeah.

What about like sort of anecdotally in the water? What about like the larger conversation around Thunderbolts? How has that been registering with you? Quite positive. Yeah. People we work with, people we're friends with, people we are. You were on the Big Pig talking about it, right? Married to or related to. Yeah. Joined, joined Sean and Amanda on the Big Pig. Everyone liked the movie. That's wonderful. Dabob liked the movie. That's wonderful. I know. Wow. I know. It was great. I didn't.

incredible science corner with Amanda Dobbins coming everybody's way on Big Pic. Just some amazing questions about how matter transfers in and out of the void. Tune in for that. Wonderful stuff. Spoiler, we didn't come to any conclusions, but the questions were asked and that's what matters. Yeah, I think I have yet to encounter directly somebody in my life who did not enjoy the movie. Now, of course, there are varying degrees. I think that

One of the things that I think in general, independent of Thunderbolts, just the MCU viewing public in the post-Endgame multiverse saga era has the tendency to do is assess everything through the lens of, especially at the end of Phase 5 here,

Is this the thing that saves Marvel? And, like, one of my... We talked about this on Big Pick. One of my contentions is, like, this is never supposed to be that movie. So I don't think that's the lens through which we're going to talk about it. But, like, it's still such an injection of...

And like, I know you, you, you took a bold swing this week and you put your power rankings up on Twitter. Um, that went really well for me. Yeah. I wouldn't have expected any other outcome, but I'll, you know, I'll say phases four and five, I'm going to like reserve the right to cement my actual, my ranking until the end of this saga. But yeah,

without question, I have a top three and Thunderbolts is in it. It's Thunderbolts, Guardians 3, and No Way Home. I know you and I have a differing opinion on whether the Spidey movies should be ranked. I think they are MCU canon and thus should be in the ranking. But, you know, so this is one of my three favorite movies of this saga. And I don't think the fact that it's...

that the comps are more to me like either guardians in terms of both the heading into the theater to sit down, will people care about these characters? But also the kind of like quirk and quip and like particular flavor and sensibility and flair of it. Or even like something like Ant-Man, right? Where again, that question of, is anyone going to go see Ant-Man? And then they did. And it's like, whoa, what can't Marvel do? Like the comps to me are much more like that than like,

we're heading into doomsday and fantastic four. And those are going to be the things that we compare to, to end game and infinity war. So I think that whatever lens you're looking, you're looking at it through though,

It was really fun and I think quite successfully executed. And the highest praise I can give it, in addition to the performances, the pace, is just the completely and utterly assured sense of self. This movie had such a clear vision for what it was trying to do and then did it really well in terms of the theme, in terms of the ideas, in terms of the energy and the calibration and dynamics between the characters. I just really, really enjoyed it. I'm excited to keep watching it.

I think that, um, at least I keep watching it. Like, like it's a TV show. Watch it again. Keep it on loop. Keep watching it. I had to watch it again and keep watching it. I hadn't heard any dissenting. Like I didn't like this. Uh,

Now, I read a couple of reviews from pals of mine who... Because I was curious. It has like an 85% amount of tomatoes. I was like, oh, okay. Who gave it a bad review? And so I was sort of like reading through their reviews. And I think sort of their consensus to a certain degree was from people I respect and admire was sort of like we're grading... People who are extolling the virtues are grading it on a curve. And I'm like, possibly. Quite possibly. It's like Marvel has felt so shaky for so long. We've been watching...

uh you know we just got done talking about daredevil uh thinking about brave new world and thinking about all the ways in which they had to like remake and reform those stories in order to give some give us something like something legible yeah and to your point there's just none of that in this movie this just feels like a movie that they wrote and probably did some reshoots on because there's always reshoots in marvel but not nothing like too extensive or wild the the biggest sort of

sign we heard from behind the scenes on this is that they did a couple of recasting maneuver. Iowa Debris was supposed to be in the role as Val's assistant and Steven Yeun was supposed to be in the Lewis Pullman Bob role. And like, there are moments where I can really see the ways in which those roles were kind of written perhaps for those specific actors. And,

No question. But I thought this cast did an amazing job. And I think Lewis Pullman especially was a standout. I mean, I love Steven Yeun. I'm a huge Steven Yeun fan. And so like, I would have loved to have seen him in this role. But I thought Lewis Pullman was like, I think my second favorite actor.

part of this movie after freaking Yelena Belova, which was, you know, Florence Pugh. Every single moment I thought with her was amazing. So, so I understand like what I've said is the best Marvel movie I'd ever seen. Never. No. But I do think it stands with like Ant-Man, the first Ant-Man you mentioned, I was talking to

our colleague kai grady earlier this morning i was like it reminds me of like you know the first captain america movie the first thor movie where it's just sort of like this is a move this is a movie guess what it's a movie we made a movie and we understand how to make movies that's what it felt like and for marvel for a while it's just felt so rickety in that regard uh but in terms of that like yeah when the credits rolled on my press screening

The people in front of us were like, the first thing I heard was we're back, baby, which is just sort of like the number one refrain you keep hearing from people around. And someone was like, everyone has slumps. Everyone has misses. It's fine. Like it was, you know, we're back. Marvel's back. I just don't know that those are the stakes I want to put on every single thing that we're watching. I agree. And I think things serve different functions. It was really important for Deadpool and Wolverine to perform enormously at the box office. And it did.

It's really important for Thunderbolts to feel stabilizing right before we launch something new like the Fantastic Four, which it did, you know? And so there's just like these functions that it served. It was important for Brave New World to not feel like, you know, they didn't at all know what they were doing. And then like, you know, they put together a movie at the end of the day with that film. We had our notes and questions about it, but like, yeah. So,

I wouldn't say I'm not I'm always hesitant to say like we're back or this is or it's over with something like this. Like history is long. There's a lot of stories to tell. I'm not saying that like this feeling solid means everything going forward will feel perfect and solid under our feet. But it makes me really optimistic for Fantastic Four. And given that I have been I bought it early on Thunderbolts.

Yeah, I feel a little vindicated. I feel pretty good about that. Flex. Flex on them. Fucking flex on them, Jo. Yeah, I think the grading on the curve goes both ways, right? And I think that a lot of the movies that Marvel has put out in the last few years have genuinely been disappointing and subpar. That is clearly, inarguably true.

We've got a lot of podcasts about that, that people can catch up on. So I'm not debating or diminishing that. That's, that's a fact. Right. But it's also true that if everything is viewed through the lens of the end of the infinity saga versus the restart of a new phase, it's like a different, it's a different way of just processing even what the experience of each film is like intended to be. Um,

I think that ultimately, like, to the we're back, are we back aspect of this, there are... I'm with you. Like, I think there are two buckets inside of that. Ultimately, in terms of the question of, like, the Marvel machine and the... Dude, this is the 36th MCU movie. Yeah. 36 MCU movies. Say it with me. 36. That's a fuckload of movies. I've enjoyed watching them all to varying degrees, but, like...

The question of whether the Marvel machine can churn in perpetuity and can constantly simultaneously extend and evolve with the connective tissue of a thing we cared about already while also introducing new elements and new variables and new ripples and new central figures and be the central force in pop culture and go on forever is big.

a question that this movie is not going to answer. That's like Fantastic Four, Doomsday, Secret Wars, and ultimately at the end of the day, X-Men. That's what answers that question, right? Is can they keep it going in the way that they had it going before? But like to your point, the just like confidence that you can head into a theater and sit down and know you have two hours and six minutes of fun ahead of you and of like a movie you're going to enjoy talking about with your pals and something that

I think of all the different aspects of the secret sauce of Marvel over the decade and a half plus now that they've been making movies is like the ability... Maybe you went in with like a lifelong devotion to a given character set, but maybe you didn't and then they made you care anyway. And then...

one of the things that I was really thinking of coming out of this movie is that like, we talked about this on Big Pic, but like, I'm so excited as my fellow Bucky enthusiasts to talk about it with you. Like Bucky Barnes is just like the great through line of our lives now as moviegoers. It's incredible, you know? And the fact that that character is such a constant in so many different ways. Like I, I remain grateful that that's a thing we get to experience in different forms. Are there dips and peaks along the way? Of course. Yeah. The, the other,

other I agree with a lot of what you said and I think that I don't think we're ever going to go back to Endgame I've said that a million times and I think that that's just okay like I think we should just like let that go it's never going to be what Endgame was that was like a once in a lifetime once in a century sort of yeah

culmination of a lot of different factors. Our culture was different at the time. It doesn't seem that long ago, but it was a whole pandemic and a lot of other things ago. So we're just not going to be there again, I think. But can we be in a place, to your point, where we can just be like, it's going to be fun to go to this Marvel movie. We won't feel pained about it. I mean, I struggled, as you know, I struggled through Daredevil quite recently. And it's just sort of like, I want to be excited about talking about these things. And I'm excited to talk about this. Same here.

I think also what it did, there's two other things I want to sort of hit in a big picture way. One is the themes that it's decided to tackle in terms of like Marvel discovering like sort of what it can and can't talk about. Like the biggest laugh in both of my theaters was a line about meth.

When Tony Stark first debuted in the MCU, they initially thought they might do the demon in the bottle story from the comics. And they're like, no, we can't do that. We want to make this like family friendly. Right. Yelena Belova is like dealing with.

you know, alcoholism in this movie. It has a lot to say about mental health. So there's like a darkness and maturity that goes beyond the like grim, dark DCEU take on it. That's just sort of like, hey, man, this is like we got

The woman who works on BoJack Horseman and we got the people who worked on Beef and the Bear and all this sort of stuff. Like, yeah, the whole A24 like joke. But like, but but we're not wasting. We're not taking we're not wasting them. We're actually engaging with these with these ideas. And then also the absolutely phenomenal character rehab.

on John Walker and Ava slash Ghost. You know what I mean? Like, these are two characters. When they announced the lineup, and I got really excited because I was like, Yelena and Bucky, that's all I needed to see, and I was really excited. People are like, Taskmaster? I mean, RIP Taskmaster. We'll talk about that in a second. But, like, Ghost, John Walker? That's sort of the point of Thunderbolts, right? Is that, you know, you take these characters

uh anti-heroes and you and you put them on a team and stuff like that but like i still need to care i don't need to like think they're steve rogers but i need to care about their emotional well-being and like john walker to a much deeper degree than ghost but still but still like ghost is the least served by this movie but it was still like

she was so charming and, and fun and dry. And like, I want to see more of her. Yeah. They better give her a better wig than they gave her in the post-credit sequence of this movie. I have some questions for you about the hair changes in the stinger. Yeah. But we're on the right track and that's, that's really exciting to me. So I had a great time with it. I, I co-sign all of it. I think the, the themes at the center of this, the, the,

Not only the examination of mental health and depression, but the, you know, like...

Found Family, obviously something we love to talk about across various stories. And I think like the way that the movie, both really subtly through either introspection or conversation, I think the obviously best, the most like notable and high profile examples in the movie are the Yelena-Alexi conversation and relationship and then the Yelena-Bob conversations and relationship. But it managed to merge and meld those moments with the

and this is genre at its finest, right? Action sequences that lean into and heighten the theme. The fact that the void, the trip through the void, the journey through the void at the end is not only everybody working through their personal trauma prisons and painstakingly

painful memories, but working through their own pain to get to a place where they can then do that together, like that unity of self and community and found family, I thought was lovely. The climax of the movie is a group hug. Yeah.

Like there's a version of that that just is like corny and bad. And I thought I honestly thought it was lovely. Like I really and I think the in general, the movie like it was really frenetic. I mean, it takes place over in a good way. Like it takes place over a very short span of time. The action sequences are actually quite long. Like the elevator shaft escape from the vault, especially it's just a huge swath of the movie in terms of the total runtime. I didn't like to get a stopwatch or anything. That's what John and Mike are here for.

synchronized watches. No, but when I was putting through my notes, I was just sort of like, I have so much that's vaults, elevator, escape from the compound. And I was like, but that's because it's, I don't know, half the movie essentially. Yeah, and it all worked together. It's important because it's foundation of the team. You know what I mean? Exactly. All of that. Yeah. I do want to shout out

You know, a question that someone asked me, I think on Blue Sky was about, you know, they had heard that this movie was something of like an everything everywhere all at once rip off or leaning too heavily on some themes explored a boat jack horseman or there is one specific episode of Harley Quinn that where you're.

individually is going through their memories of their trauma before they can come together and fight trauma together. You know, like that, that does exist, but has existed in other mediums before as well. It's not like new, new, new. Right. And I would say, yes, I would say it's drawing for, I would say I can, I can feel the DNA of everything, everywhere, all at once in here. But like,

It has some other things on its mind and it doesn't feel like it's just a Marvel wash on top of the best picture winner or, you know, lifting directly from from animated or genre television that we like. It's all these things. And when you take characters like Elena Belova, who we haven't spent a ton of time with, or Bucky Barnes, who we have spent a lot of time with and yeah, and bring them in and make their trademarks.

trauma is believably anchored to stuff we've already seen from them. I think that is an important, we're telling an ongoing story. And I think that's done really well. So great on the ongoing story in front. Yes. Really quickly. We have a lot of, someone asked me, what do I have to have seen in order to understand what's going on here? And, and we'll note this as we go, but there's a lot of moments inside of this movie where we're,

They're recapping things about each other via traded insults or congressional testimony. There's a lot of recap available for you inside of this. So do you have to have seen what's come before? It would be helpful to have seen, I think, most of all, Falcon and the Winter Soldier and Black Widow. Yes, those two most of all, for sure. That I would say would be most helpful. But

elena black widow and hawkeye bucky everything but also falcon winter soldier his brave new world appearance john walker falcon winter soldier ava ant-man and the wasp taskmaster black widow valentina falcon winter soldier black widow wakanda forever um and the brave new world to understand what she's talking about or the trailers uh bright red superhuman monster the president has turned into um

But yeah, one TV show and one movie are the most crucial sort of DNA for this. And that's...

feels slightly freer than some of the other multiverse saga uh installments we've been seeing yeah i it was interesting to talk to sean and amanda about this because i think obviously there's variance inside of any listenership and viewership but i think that's probably a more germane question for the big pick heads than for the house like oh my god how much homework is there yeah and i think you know yeah my obviously our position on this is always going to be well yeah but you know you check it out watch it all watch it

all. This is part of the fun. The continuity is part of the joy. But I do think undeniably it has become prohibitive for certain people to feel like it's possible to keep up with the MCU, especially in the Disney Plus era of television, the ballooning of the television slate. So that's not a...

like a commentary on whether those things are good or worth people's time. I think it's just true that there are folks out there who are like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to sit down and have a feel for how these characters got here. I think Thunderbolts did one of the better jobs that I can remember. This certainly in the deeper stages of the MCU of, of,

If you have seen it all, I agree with you. There were a couple moments where you're like, well, there's the line to catch people up on Thing X if you know you're clocking it. But I still didn't feel like, okay, well, I watched all that stuff. Why are we wasting all of this time rehashing a thing I know? It never tipped that far to me. And I think if you did not come to the movie with the prior Falcon Winter Soldier and Black Widow knowledge or...

you know, Ant-Man or any of the other things like Ant-Man and the Wasp, you'd be okay. I think you'd be able to hang. And I think that some of that is because of the way that the movie catches you up on necessary plot beats, but mostly because it is so rooted in making sure you understand who the characters are. Yeah. Just like who they are. You know, why are they in this place like emotionally? What are the relationships and the losses? Whether that's John Walker has lost his family.

His wife has left him and taken their kid. Whether that is the Elena mourning Natasha, her sister, and the crumbling of this family unit. Now, if you've watched Black Widow, you come to that with a deeper understanding, certainly, of

of the fact that even before that she has confronted, wait, did I lose the idea of that? Was that ever really real? And so there's a richness. It was real to me. It was real to me. There's a richness there, of course, that I found rewarding. But yeah, you can hang with this for sure if you haven't seen all that other stuff. I think it's been a while since that's felt true. On the comics front, similarly, you don't need to have read any comics at all to understand this.

but there's some century stuff that I think is helpful and informative. Um, and some Thunderbolt stuff that's fun to, you know, or us agent. So I don't, should I, I have like a little list here, but I don't know that it's like, yeah, you're reading less. Yeah. Century reborn, Paul Jenkins and John Romita jr. And century Jeff Lemire and Kim Jacinto. Um, the idea of century, um,

Bob slash century slash the void and this idea of this character who it is origin. We meet as this sort of middle-aged man who like has erased the idea of century from everyone's head and is chasing the mystery of who the void is, who is the supervillain, the void, and then discovering that the supervillain, the void who has wreaked havoc in the past is himself. Yeah.

um, isn't, is a really interesting concept. This idea of century then becomes a problematic figure inside of comics because similar to vision or Superman, he's way overpowered. Yeah. So how do you have him around? Um, and so there are, you know, ways in which they have, you know, injured him or, you know, his, his fear of the void keeps, keeps him in check sort of where we find Bob at the end of this or, or, um,

Or similarly, there's this idea of memory and sentry, which I think is the only comic book information that I think might help better inform. Because when Bob says, I can't remember what happens, and we do have a couple moments inside of this where Yolanda's like, hey, I thought you said you couldn't remember, but you do. There is this question based on comic book knowledge of...

How much is he telling the truth when he says he can't remember? And how much is he, you know, how much is this like something he has isolated inside of his own memory? And how much of it is just sort of like he can't face it. So he says he can't remember. That's something to think about and wonder about when you think about someone like Bob. Widowmaker's Red Guardian, Yelena Belova, Devin Grayson and Michelle Bandini is just like a really fun Alexi and Yelena comic that if you want to get more of their dynamic, you can read.

They're my absolute favorite together. I honestly just think it's incredible. Thunderbolts colon Winter Soldiers. Kurt Busiek, Jim Zub, Mark Bagley, Shauna Zoxy, and John Malin. This is when Bucky takes over as leadership of Thunderbolts.

Which is not traditionally who leads Thunderbolts in the comics. But if you want to think about like fucking leadership and what I love about this movie, we'll talk about this a little bit more later, is it actually doesn't tell us who the leader of the Thunderbolts is at the end of the day.

What is your impression? Is your impression that it is a Yelena and Bucky co-lead? Is Yelena the leader, but Bucky sort of leading from behind? Yeah. I got more of the latter sense, like that he's kind of mentoring her, but let it, but that like giving the, you know, the one she's trying, you know, using Siri basically to like. Fuel up the jet. Yeah. Get the fantastic four.

ship up. And he's like, well, this is like kind of the thing you need to say. And obviously I think a lot of what's fun to talk about there is Bucky's particular relationship to leadership, leadership, but also just like, this is a massive thing for Bucky to be in a new team, a new dynamic with new people in his life after like,

you know the formative relationships in his his life are gone and then sam a person he carries that through with is like i'm copywriting this we're on opposite teams which is a fun thing heading into the the next stage of avengers movies obviously but yeah i think like elena's the head and bucky's like advisor vice president kind of kind of i a little bit wonder

I don't want to dip my toe too much in this, but like, I a little bit wonder if they didn't make it so explicit because of, so they can decide like later they can decide later, but all the like really disappointingly disappointing reaction to like women taking the four in the Marvel universe and the way in which people have been like weird and toxic about it. But if you do like a team up movie, this is Yelena Belova's movie. This movie could be called Yelena and you wouldn't be incorrect. But like, it's,

it's presented as an ensemble movie and it is to, uh, in many ways. And then like leadership is ambiguous at the end. It's not like Yelena is the leader of the Thunderbolts. And so you can't have people say like, Oh, I can't believe they had a woman. You know what I mean? Like they're just sort of sidestepping that entirely. I'll also put a proud tradition of like,

Well, yeah, there's the quote-unquote leader, but also like, you know, aren't Cap and Tony kind of like both in charge in their own way, even though whenever somebody asks a question, Tony's going to be like, he's in charge. Great point. Thunderbolts, Kurt Busiek and Mark Bagley, Thunderbolts, Warren Ellis and Mike Deodato. It's like so exciting when they don't name them with subtitles. So you're like, which run? But there's just like a couple runs in terms of like...

us agent like us agent specifically on the on the team up or um the circumstances under which they come together or uh is century a character that they're engaging with and stuff like that is is something you think about uh us agent colon american zealot one of my favorite comic book titles of all time christopher priest and stefano lindini and then the new avengers brian michael bendis and david finch that will take us into the end of this film the new avengers so uh those are just some things to think

about as we go through. Anything else you want to talk about before we get into our, what I'm calling our medium dive of this movie? No, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's dip a toe into the void. Before Mallory gets to talk about her husband, Alexi. If only. We start with Yelena Belova. Yelena all alone. Yes. And we meet her in a way worse place than we met her, quipping her way through Hawkeye, right? She's on a mixed mission. She's in full control

fix Colleen that is an Andor reference depresso mode right she's like she's usually quite stylish we're used to her sort of complicated braids um but she's got unwashed hair no makeup slouchy hoodie real podcaster vibe uh coming off Yelena Belova and I say stay off her corner Yelena yeah your own thing okay exactly uh no sriracha or mac and cheese either so disappointing notable

She's monologuing about her own we over this action set piece in a way that I really love. I thought this was great. We get this hallway fight. We get her parachuting in. We get all this stuff. And then the reveal that she is saying all of this to a guy that she is holding hostage. She's like, hey, you're not listening. So really funny, really good dialogue.

Florence Pugh, entire movie star, really just killing it right off the bat here. Pugh Hive thriving as always. I thought this was such a charm, even though it's heavy thematically right from the jump, such a winning and charming opening stretch for the movie and really a good embodiment of that blend of introspection, thematic richness, and

entertaining comedy and action. When the doctor comes out, I was like cackling when he shot himself in the face. I just, I found this genuinely very amusing right away. I was like, we're,

We're going to be good. This is good. Like you guys never know how to shoot. She's like, yada, yada, yada. You're making great advances. Blah, blah, blah. He gives us a hint about the century program. He mentioned when you watch it back, maybe you noticed it the first time. But for me, when I watch it back,

through you get the shadows the void shadows on the wall that we see again inside of bob's head at the end of the episode at the end of the movie so um yeah yelena too busy ripping off one-liners to clock that but she's busy saving guinea pigs she saves the guinea pig it's not that was very sweet but she saves the guinea pig i did enjoy how the guinea pig worked worked his way into much of the

end credits. Yeah. The different illustrations of the team and at the little, the top of the boat, good stuff. Well, what she says, she, she says, she says emptiness started when my sister died, something bigger of void. And she'll say it, you know, she'll have that exchange later with Bob, but does Yelena kind of creeped the villain of this movie? It, in a way, you know, it's worth noting that Alexi is very interested in discussing branding. Yeah.

And merchandising. And Yelena's like, this isn't a conversation about merchandising. And yet she has a natural act of a gift for it. Capital V void TM created by Yelena Bilova. All right. Speaking of Alexi, we go from Yelena alone to Alexi all alone. Mallory, take it away. I'm just going to give this over to you. Joanna, I have never felt more seen, known, understood, and loved.

sexually drawn toward a character than in this opening glimpse of Alexi. House of R listeners, long time listeners will know my feelings about David Harper. Anyone who's like, what the hell is going on here? Check the tape. Sitting on his couch.

watching TV of himself. Tape of himself. Tape of himself. You don't listen. I would rather die. You don't like sit and listen back to old podcasts. That's not something I would rather die than do that. But sitting on the couch in his underwear, the doorbell rings and he's like,

I said, leave on porch. I said, leave on porch. That is just like every night for me personally. And then when Yelena shows up, we learn that he is one block from Baltimore. She's like, isn't this Baltimore? It's like Baltimore's one block over. Now what I need to know, what I need some follow-up insight on, is he watching the O's or is he watching the Nats? Now, I think I know the answer. He's probably watching the Nationals.

But I wonder if we could swing him. I wonder if we could swing him to the Baltimore Orioles. He loves a lovable loser. I have a really bad news for you. I think he's watching hockey.

Well, that just makes me more certain that he's probably watching the Nats because Baltimore doesn't have an NHL team. DC does. So if he's watching the Caps, he's probably like also watching the Commanders and the Nats. I'm not giving up. I think we can get Alexi over to the Ravens and the O's. I think he'd really enjoy the food offerings at Camden Yards. He would love some Boogs barbecue. It's all possible in the multiverse. Here's what's really important. And...

And I hope we never forget this. Representation matters. And Mallory, I'm so glad to see you reflected. Thank you. In a film character. Thank you. I just love the David Harbour Alexei performance. I think it is so funny and charming. And also then we get this happened in Black Widow. It happened in this movie. We're laughing. We're chuckling. We're amused. And then suddenly we get this jolt, this emotional wallop.

in a scene between him and Yelena, like the conversation out on the street in this movie, the American Pie singing in Black Widow, like they are fantastic together and he is great in the role. My memory is that we like, did we cry through talking about American Pie? We did. We weren't even working together yet. We weren't even colleagues then. But I think that was when we knew. It's like our origin story is us crying through American Pie when talking about the Black Widow film. Okay. Yelena.

Yelena and Alexei have not spoken in a year. Yeah. But you can tell something is off with her.

And it's not just the unwashed hair. He says, the light inside you is dim, even by Eastern European standards. It's got a big laugh from, once again, the eight people in my theater. Sold out crowd here in L.A. also. Yeah, loved it. It ended up raw. Yeah, very amusing. And then we get the introduction of the Thunderbolts soccer team photo. Now, the Thunderbolts are named after Thunderbolt Ross inside of the comic space. Mallory Rubin, how do you feel about this little switcheroo here?

I thought this was so inspired. Yeah, I agree. Particularly because at the end of the day, as many people speculated because of the asterisk and the title of the movie,

The name is a placeholder, right? Like it's by the end of the film, they're rebranded as the new Avengers. And presumably they will be the new Avengers moving forward until they are all absorbed into the same team to fight Dr. Avengers with a Z. Honestly, an iconic moment from Alexi in the Stinger. Great stuff. So because, as you noted, the group is is.

Different in many respects from the comic, various versions of the Thunderbolts across Comics Canada, but different in many key respects.

One of the similarities is this like the Avengers have left some space behind. There's some some void. Right. But also, more importantly, even than that, this idea of like the characters who need some sort of like rehab. Right. The the rejects, the losers, a villain or antihero. He is who's going to try to be heroic, etc., etc.

But because they're not going to remain the Thunderbolts moving forward, rooting the origin of that name in something so specific and small and personal felt so right to me inside of a movie where everybody's individual history and emotional experiences is part of how they end up opening up to each other and deciding not to move beyond. We were sent here to kill each other, but we're going to team up. We're going to form a team. I loved it. And then because we are fans of the film Black Widow, like,

you know, that time in Ohio for Natasha and Yelena and, and Alexi and Melina was like, we only glimpsed it for a bit, but it has such a bearing on who those people are. And like, I love the idea of this, this moment in their life that was ultimately like, you know, it's the MCUs, the Americans, right? This, this cover and this ruse, but through that, they found something real. It's very parallel to like what ends up happening in this movie. So I really, I really,

loved it. Also, it led to the story about Mindy taking a shit on the field. So like, what's to complain about really? Poor Mindy. Mindy never got past that ever in her life. They tease her about it forever. I asked Shawn and Amanda this. Did she do it on, was it, did she have an accident? Like, did she shit her pants or did she like, did she, was she making a point? Did she do it on purpose? What's your read on this? I think she shit her pants on the field and I think she had to like move.

move out of state and start to go by Melinda instead of Mindy. Like, I think that's what happened for poor Mindy. I also love this. Rooting the name, but taking the name Thunderbolts away from Thunderbolt Ross. Yeah. Who we last saw a movie that did not really work. And is without question a sinister force, the same way that Valentina is right. And yeah,

Make it this is such like a Guardians of the Galaxy moment, like like a kid's soccer team. Bad news bears of soccer is what's naming this team here. Like that's that's that's very MCU to me. Totally. And like they didn't win a game. We learned that, too, which is a great little detail. Like they couldn't fucking win a game. Yeah.

What a perfect inspiration for our lovable losers here. I also love as like, as Yelena is like not ready to make full connection with Alexa yet, she does absorb something from when he's talking about Natasha and talking about this idea of being loved.

a public facing hero. She calls Valentina and she's like, I'm, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm ready. You know, and Valentina says something snarky about like, oh, you're ready for Yelena Belova is ready for her closeup. But it's like, she's like, no, I'm ready. I'm ready to accept that I can do something more. She's not, she hasn't done all the mental health work that she needs, but that brings us

to what I'm a section I'm calling Valentina girl boss. Yeah. She loves to promote women. She loves to promote women. As you know. So funny. That killed me. Yeah. That was I think one of my two favorite Val lines the other being don't gasp at work. Please don't gasp at work. There's also just like a moment at the fundraiser there's a moment when Mel is like it's a silent moment and Mel is behind her and Mel is like saying something and Val gives her such a Selina Meyer like

stop talking look. Yeah. Such a like Amy shut up look from Veep. Okay. So at her congressional hearing Valentina has paired her existent white streak in her hair with smart white suit for the first

Full Tulsi Gabbard. She's looking identical to good old Tulsi Gabbard. I actually think this was filmed before. Absolutely, definitely filmed before. But as was the case with Veep, they have sort of predicted something. And so it makes this interesting little resonant moment. But of course, we are dealing more closely with some other things we've heard around the Trump administration, which is the idea of divestiture. I definitely pronounced that correctly. And like,

how much are you still associated with the corporation that you used to be? How much are you still profiting? How much are, is being the director of the CIA directly profitable for you in one sense or another? And Val reminds us of recent MCU events. She's like,

Have you seen Brave New World? The president turned into a red Hulk. Yeah. But she did not chime in on Dong to me, which is so disappointing. I first of all, we've been waiting, obviously, since our pod. But I would expect to have an opinion. Yeah, I would. Let's call her. We know how she feels about opinions from this movie. You know, we don't know who the president is now. And also,

I have ongoing timeline questions. Because of the 14 months later. Yeah. I have a lot of questions. And then she mentions, she alludes to Wakanda for, she's like, remember how I was in Wakanda forever and maybe shouldn't have been, but I was in that movie. Just wanted to remind you that I was in that movie. Yeah.

Anything you want to say about Val and Mel and the disposal of evidence and anything like that before we go to the vault where we'll be for a while? You know, like you said, the parallels to our current...

political reality, like right down to the I'm unimpeachable line harrowing, obviously. JLD, you know, imbuing this with her signature satirical comedy and flair, helpful. I will talk about this later, obviously, but just the like stitching in of

Bucky as a presence in this political theater, but like such an uncomfortable presence. He doesn't know. This is not the space he knows how to navigate. It was like an interesting thread through that as well. But yeah, you know, just like the general air of

I don't have time for you attempting to hold me to account. I'm not going to take this serious. So we get like the beat of anxiety when they leave the hearing. And I was like, shit, you know, but she's just going to, you know, whether it's a human being or a piece of paper or any other evidence of wrongdoing believes that she can literally incinerate it, press a button on an iPad and walk away. And to the point where she's not even aware that one of her experiments made it through like that lack of care,

And attention to detail and kind of casual, not only the lust for power, but lack of interest in any of the particular ramifications of pursuing it established effectively early and obviously has been since the beginning. I think, you know, this is another one where have you whether or not you've seen the prior episodes.

Shows and movies coming into it, I think they hit this clearly early. But, like, you know, Val is the one when John Walker is going through his hearing and has to hand over the shield and is stripped of the mantle of Captain America, who's like, no worries, U.S. agent. How does it sound? I've got a job for you. Val is the one when Yelena is at fucking Natasha's grave. Mm-hmm.

warning who shows up with a picture of Clint Barton and an assignment. So this idea that she is taking people who have lost something and then weaponizing and leveraging and using the absence of something in their lives to turn them into tools. It's like, especially because so many of these characters, Bucky with Hydra, Yelena with the Red Room, et cetera, have been a weapon or a tool of somebody else and then had to break through that mind control. Like,

A lot of the early parts of the movie are comedic, but there is this heavy note, and this is part of what Yelena is, of course, expressing to Alexi, too, of, like, I kind of just wound up in a different version of that same thing where someone else is asking me to go clean up their mess, and I don't really want to. So, like, we understand Val's role in the world quite clearly based on all of that, politically and personally. I love that. I would also add that, like,

Val has has found people at rock bottom and offered them, you know, a rope to hell, but also has gaslit them. Yes, because they're all like, what else are we good for? What else is available to us?

We do shitty things. We kill people and then we get killed as sort of like Yelena summarizes later. Like that's just who we are and that's all we can be. And this is sort of the theme of the Thunderbolts comic idea and into the movie idea is like, who says? It's a lot of what we talked about with Loki. Who says you have to be this thing? You can be this other thing and together you can sort of validate each other and figure out like, hey man,

All of them are so sure that each other are going to abandon them, right? They're so sure that Ava's abandoned them. She's so sure that John's abandoned them. They're sure again that... I do like that they at least called it out when Ava rolls up in the truck.

And he's like, oh, back again a second time. I was like, yeah, OK, we got it. Like they're going to show up for each other. But even then, even when they show up to like haul that piece of concrete up altogether off of John Walker at the end, like it's still it still matters. Someone else has showed up for them and that person is not looking to profit financially off of them. Yeah.

Okay, so go now to a vault that's a mile underground, a bunker. And if you feel seen in this movie by Alexi sitting in his box, he's ordering DoorDash. I feel seen by the fact that when Yelena gets to the vault, one of the first things she sees are some century-page paperwork conveniently strewn about on top of a crate. Yeah.

including a very detailed wig watch with Valentina TM sort of moment. You were the first person I thought of, unsurprisingly. Thank you so much.

We don't understand the full implications of this until later we see Bob show up with the ill-advised sun-kissed version of his hair. But all of the various hairstyle options that are out there for Sentry cracked me up. Great stuff. I loved later when, after many mentions of the hair, and they're like, well, it's not really about the hair. And then Val's like, you keep bringing up the hair.

up there very amusing very amusing oh he's aware of steve rogers little blonde wiglet and she's like we want to we want to return to that little blonde wiglet space in all of our hearts um so here's the math elena's target is ghost ghost is after taskmaster taskmaster is after john and john is after elena fun little circle and what yeah we get here is first of all from from

taskmaster, Antonia, in her only moment of FaceTime and only line in the movie. Literally one line. Reminds us, reminds the audience that she and Yelena know each other, right? She's just like, I'm not here for you, right? Which is like important information as Yelena figures out what's going on. But also just a moment of like, hey, sit down. Like, I don't even want to, I don't want to fight you at all. Like we had this

We've had this shared trauma. Like, let's not get into it. And then Taskmasters soon off the board. What follows is like one of several very cool fights. Yeah. We already got the cool Yelena introduction, but here we have

Just one of my favorite things that you can have in a superhero story. They did it so well in like the, the tarmac fight in civil war. Yes. When you, when you are a stunt coordinator and you sit down and you think about your various power sets. Yeah. And granted later, Yelena is like, what? We all just punch and shoot. Like, you know, they're not like,

They're not wildly outside the box, these power sets, but they're still significant. There's a shield at play. There's what can ghost to as she phases in and out of things. There's what can Taskmaster do as she sort of starts to mimic your fighting style. And then there's Yelena, who's our POV in all of this. So I just thought this was so slick. The way a throne knife could just sort of bounce around from all four characters and wind up back at Yelena's throat. I mean, I just thought this was brilliant.

brilliant. What did this do for you? I loved three things about this. One, everything you just outlined, the kind of just rhythm and choreography of the fight. Two, what that then primes us for with the eventual the entire group versus century showdown in the

Val should be fucking ashamed of herself for buying a Stark Tower. Outrageous to buy a Vendor's Tower and turn it into a Stark Tower. Outrageous. I thought of you immediately. I thought of you most of all. How dare she stand where Tony Stark stood. When Mel and Bucky are standing in front of the A of...

uh, I was thinking about you especially. Yes. Um, but like, you know, we're watching how everybody here is ready to act and counteract. And there is this kind of, you know, they each have different skills and abilities and proficiencies. They are in some ways well matched against each other. And then kind of, you can think about how they would turn that rhythm into our case team. And so then when you see how I just,

instantly and utterly outclassed they are by century. Like it feels, I think, even more keen. And then the third thing is, could not stop thinking watching this about what Valentina actually thought was going to happen here. I'm like, okay, wait, we know it's going to be an incinerator. So is her plan just whoever's standing last gets burned alive anyway? Or did she actually think that this would be the combat battle? I've sent my assassins after each other version of like,

lovers managing to climax at the same time as everyone getting the kill shot off at just the right moment. It's a classic Val, what the fuck are you doing here? Which I also, again, loved because it's very fitting. This is just not, I mean, yes.

watching them fight is so fun as a plan. I feel like as soon as they step in, the incinerators should just go like, don't bother to fight each other. Just torch immediately. Why are we waiting? Um, we're waiting and we gave them opportunity and like what she says to Mel, uh, and we'll say throughout the movie in terms of them being losers, blah, blah, blah. It's like, there's no way they could work together. Right. They're all, they're all fuck ups and loners and all this sort of stuff like that. And, um,

I want to, I want to, I have a whole little John Walker section that I will get to later. But I will say, US agent, I really, I love Wyatt Russell. I love Wyatt Russell. I really struggled with John Walker in Falcon and the Winter Soldier in terms of like, I understood that we weren't supposed to

like him or be excited that he was taking over the shield. But I just really struggled with the way in which they calibrated that the way they deployed him. I thought he was used so well in this movie. And, but even when he, even at first, even before we're like talking to each other and, and, and quipping and stuff like that, just watching him fight with the shield was really his like shitty imitating, fakey shield that he made. Yeah.

The way he reloaded his, like, dropped the clip out of his gun, I thought was really slick. Like, I thought, oh, this worked really, really well. It will forever bug me.

and this is more of a Falcon problem than it is anything else, but Sam fights almost the exact same way that these super soldiers do. I just don't understand if you're going to like make it a big deal that Sam took the super soldier serum, did not take the super soldier serum, like as a stance. Right. But he can fight with the shield the exact same way that super soldiers can. Like, I don't, I'll never get it. Um, and that's all I have to say about that. Yeah.

I was going to say, well, the serum allows John to jump really far up the elevator shaft and then fall on his ass and embarrass himself. But at the end of the day, Falcon's got wings. You know, Cap has wings and kept the wings. How surprised we're. OK, so like the Taskmaster thing.

It felt so clear to those of us who do this for a living and watch all the trailers that Taskmaster had been edited into a number of shots in the trailer. And even down to the...

The cards that they put up at our press screening beforehand, and it's just sort of like the team and then it's like Taskmaster sort of just like over someone's shoulder. So it's so clear that she was going to die early and that, you know, they had sort of tried to cover that by showing her in a bunch of positions she clearly wasn't in. I didn't think it was going to be so early.

What was your take on this? Yeah, same. I think it was apparent from the... Also just the app. Like the flip side to editing into the trailers and stuff is that the absence in much of the marketing material, like every... I feel like I don't have an actual tally here, but I want to say like it felt to me that like...

one out of every five, you know, Instagram or Twitter posts about the movie, they'd be like, oh yeah, we got to like pretend Taskmasters in this movie, but the other ones, there was just like no mention of Taskmaster. So it's, yeah. And I think that's fine, both because like it set the stakes early for like what they were there to actually do and what could happen and what Val's goal was. And also because like, frankly, now could this have changed the way like, you know, some of the other characters, as you noted, Ghost, et cetera, um,

We did not have a deep investment in after airman and the wasp. And you're like, Oh man, I care more now. That's fun and cool. Could we have gotten there with taskmaster? Maybe, but I don't know that we needed to. Um, so I didn't mind this. I'm,

I'm glad that they went through the pains of updating the entire suit, despite the fact that this was going to be 47 seconds of screen time. I'm glad that Taskmaster got a new mask and a fresh look. You know, so much of like the design of the suit in Black Widow, I feel like now, you know, it was like, we don't want you to know there's a woman in there. Yeah.

You know? So, like, because it was obviously the Dreykov's daughter identity was, like, one of the reveals in the movie. So, yeah. I have... I did not miss Taskmaster after she was gone. I'd be lying if I said I did. But one line was... I would have taken the over on one line. I will say, for all we roll our eyes at Valentina, when she's like, you know I love promoting women. Yeah. Of her, I guess, four-person deadly assassin squad, three of them are women and her assistant's a woman. So, like,

I will take her at his word. Well, now two are women because one is dead and Bob enters vomiting. And this is how we hear him retching before we see him. Yes. And here he comes in his gym jams because John Walker opened up the sarcophagus by tossing his shield around inside of this vault. And yeah,

Here we go. We get this exchange. Again, this is one of many we get in sort of recapping who these people are when John's like Taskmaster destroyed half of Budapest. Yes. They call him Dime Store Captain America. But he was like, I was official for like two seconds. And then they...

They mentioned the worst thing that happens in Falcon and Winter Soldier, which is John Walker murdering someone in the middle of the street with the shield and slashing it with blood. And it is one of the worst things I've ever seen on anything. Good stuff when John's reply to that was defined innocent. It was like...

wild uh john and ghost are scavenging items off of taskmaster's dead body i thought that was honestly a great touch i loved that and bob she would want me to have them yeah well like we get these light sort of yelena i knew her moments yes um throughout they don't like they don't

Make you feel like you have to have watched Black Widow, but like her just slightly different attachment to this character is notable and I really like. Bob claims that he doesn't remember how he got there. And then we get the countdown starts. John hilariously is like, maybe it's the clock that tells me when they're going to come pick me up.

Honestly, incredible. Really good. And you're like, John, you're a hoot and a holler. And then he...

uh wounds me deeply oh man by yelling on your left when he bashes open this control panel which is for some reason okay i didn't really understand the explanation for why i was inside the room but whatever yeah that's like yeah john walker keep on your left out of your mouth exactly valentina find some different fucking real estate yeah i know that's the whole point she's like the optics and john walker you don't get to say on your left sorry you don't

Time store cap, you don't. We get, as the incinerator's heating up and Ghost has left the room and we're not sure if she's going to come back to rescue them, we get the first of several moments where

of Yelena Belova closing her eyes and just sort of accepting what's going to happen to her by my count and I could have missed one but like we get three we get this one here the incinerator we get the one she does right before she steps into the void and then we get one at the end the very end before the stinger right after it's like they're the new avengers and she's like here we go

And I, what I really like about those three moments is like the first time it happens, it really is her being like here it's the end. Well, that's it. I was feeling really depressed and now it's over. Okay. So when we watch her step into the void, um, yeah.

A lot of us already knew that she's going to be an Avengers. So we're not like that worried about it, but she's doing the same face. And for her, it's like, here I go into this thing. I don't know what's going to happen, but I feel like I can help and I'm going to do this thing. Yes, I can try. But both Alexi and maybe some people in the audience are like, oh, did she once again try to end everything for herself? And then to do it again, like,

In this other moment of like stepping into a new adventure, I also do. I don't this might as well be the void. I don't know what this thing is being a new Avenger going forward. I'll step into this as well. I just really liked those three beats throughout. Yeah, I love that. Love it.

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They get blown out of the vault and oops, oh my God, somehow their hands get tangled up together on the ground. Wonderful stuff. Oh no. And Yelena goes inside of a memory. How did you enjoy this part?

I thought that Yelena and Bob were incredible together throughout the movie, and I'm deeply invested in their relationship and want them to be together. What does Bob ask when he wakes up in the wash tower? Yelena. Where's Yelena? What does Yelena ask as soon as she gets to the wash tower? Where's Bob? Bob. Yeah.

Wonderful stuff. In terms of the actual just like first trip we take, and we'll get John's glimpse soon, but the first glimpse coming through Yelena's eyes, fitting for so many reasons, she has been the character already to express this idea of the void, the way that that depression feels like it consumes you, but also to understand very quickly what is going to be happening in this space that people are going to be taken back, ported back to, and then trapped in

a formative defining source of remorse, shame, trauma for Yelena. You know, one of the great moments in Black Widow is when Natasha and Yelena free Alexi from the prison and he's so thrilled to see them and they're like,

fuck off. Yeah. And he's recounting like, where he's like, was your life so bad? Like, Natasha, you're an Avenger. Yelena, you are the best child assassin ever. Like, obviously much of, much of Black Widow is about the horror of that and free, you know, using the red dust to, to free themselves. But to actually see something this specific, like,

this other child, the idea of the first test being luring another young girl out into the wilderness so that she could be killed, very, like, unsullied. Mm-hmm.

uh, coded, right? You have to kill, you kill, you're going to kill the baby. You're going to kill the dog. You know, this is how like we, we, we prove that you're ready. Heart, heart, just horrifying. So it tells us a lot about her history. And I thought that like, you noted this in our outline and I, I was really moved by this too, the way that she across these memories, she's watching. And then of course, adult Yelena has to relive it too. And even though nothing can change the fact that this has happened, her impulse is still to shield, uh,

to cover and protect her younger self from having to like relive this, especially once we realize it's a loop. So I thought this was like very effective. And then of course there's the added little jolt of her turning and seeing Bob. And you're like, Oh shit. Not only because you're starting to understand the power and the nature of his power, but also because part of what's happening here is not just that the void is, is taking people and trapping people and obliterating people, but,

It's that he's seeing them. Right. He's seeing the worst thing that has happened in their lives. Val is so shaken by John shaken by this. They're all shaken by this. But like Val is like the most unsettled we've ever seen her by the fact that he can. Yeah. And like and he's a character who says to her in that same scene, like, you don't get to know that. I didn't tell I didn't say you can know that about his dad. So like, well, when he knows it's like a violation.

Later, when Yelena's like, show us the worst of the worst, it's like, take us, your new friends, and show us the very worst thing. And we'll show you that we still care about you. And in terms of like that bid for intimacy, to have your shame exposed in that way. And also for this memory for Yelena to specifically be about, to your point, a betrayal of a friend inside of this...

that is so much about how hard it is for these extremely damaged people to form new bonds and new friendships. I wonder why it's hard for Yelena because, you know, this is how she started. Yelena brings up the fight between Bob and John. All-time delivery from Lewis Pullman as Bob of, you said you're Captain America? You're an asshole. Like, it's very good. Very, very good. There were a lot of really funny moments in the movie, but that might have been my

It's hard to pick, but that was just, I thought, incredible. And yeah, I also like you said earlier, I really adore Steven Yeun and I think he would have been a fantastic century. But I agree. I thought Lewis Pullman was like incredible. And this was one of the many beats of Bob that we were able to understand right away. I just thought this was like great. Great.

They share this moment. Yelena and Bob share this moment off to the side. And after she says, we swing our tiny dicks, it was fun. They share this moment off to the side. And again, there's just this like kindred understanding. I see you.

She says the word void again. She perhaps gives him some ideas. It's not great. But yeah, Florence Pugh's delivery of you shove it way down. That's how you deal with it. Great stuff. Really good. Mallory, we're back in the elevator. Another iconic elevator scene for the MCU. This was, I thought, actually perfect. Who's wet? I know.

I run hot. It's a mile up, a mile of crab walking themselves up the elevator shaft. I love the moment when they like pause sort of not even halfway to look down how far they've come and how far they have to go. Give us a real sense of what they've accomplished here, how much time it actually took them to get all the way up, you know, give, give Valentina time to scramble the jets and get all the forces out assembled outside. Um,

I thought this was was wonderful. Bob throughout goes to this sort of like it's better if I'm just like if I stay down here, it's better if I just make things worse. You know, it's like all all these indicators are coming for us that Bob is in this in this head. This is very fragile headspace.

And hearing, you know, hearing him say here specifically, because they get to the top, they realize, wait, we don't know what, oh God, like how I'm going to get to the actual door leads to a lot of John Walker comedy. Cause he's like, I made a tactical decision to secure my own safety and that helped the team. Great stuff. But that really sad, really sad moment where Bob is like,

always make things worse. And then we see later when we're witnessing above through the cracks in the floorboard, the memory with his, his parents. And that was like, but it's not just like his parents. It's his mom. He's defending his mom. Yeah. And his mom's like, you just make this worse. Yeah. And like,

And like, so that feeling of utter hopelessness and helplessness, like not only to be under the threat that they were under from his father, but like, wait, I tried to help somebody and they told me that was bad. And then side by side with that, there's this like emerging as he and Yelena become this sort of like unlikely fighting duo. There's this sort of like, I actually think I can help. I think I can help. I'm yeah, I think I

I'm better. And I think I have, I'm hiding a crazy six pack under these baggy gym jams. Wonderful stuff. And also I can fly. I,

I could help. I could do a lot of things. Yeah. And this is why this character is so interesting. And I think why this was such a successful introduction in the MCU and presentation, like that duality inside of Bob, you know, the sentry and the void, the superhero and the supervillain. When is there bleed between them? And when do those aspects of yourself really feel like they are at odds with each other and that one of them is trying to claim the other? I thought the movie did a great job of establishing that. And so...

perfect for this story about these people who were told they were villains. Can they be heroes? Can they be both somehow? Right.

There's also very specific like mental health language around Bob when he describes even before the trials, going back to being a kid, he had essentially manic depressive episodes. Right. He says high than a big low. And then my memory just goes blank. I did something bad. Right. So we're about to see exactly this in super powered form at the end when he's like he's to Valentina. He's like, I'm a god. Guess what?

why you can't even touch me why would you why would i listen to you why can you tell me what to do i am a literal god and then one little kill switch moment and he's like in you know could happen to any of us and then he's he's in the void um

Anything you want to say about sort of their escape from the compound here? I will say for my part, I loved all the action and fight in this movie. I could have taken so much more of Yelena and Bob fire hose tied to each other fighting back to back. I thought it was like such a great concept. And then the fire hose sort of like just fell off them very quickly. I loved that too. Bob getting the gun in his hands and just

missing his target completely shooting at their their feet so that they dance apologizing and then grabbing a gas mask and having a flop down his face is me playing the last of us part two like this is every i was like oh my god the sports are here i'm putting my gas mask on i've got so much ammo because i'm playing on light but i can't hit any of my targets help

I love that. And I also love that later when he grabs the gun to be a distraction. Yes. His real Ian Malcolm with a flare moment. He's firing the gun in the air and he still has no control over it. His arm is just sort of wobbling all over the place while he does it. Very best chicken swinging. He gets shot a lot. Yeah.

This is an important moment in the history of cinema. Much like Padme Amidala, who had her shirt converted to a crop top by a rogue claw in Attack of the Clones. All of a sudden, his shirt exposes his abs and you're like,

Oh, Bob. Okay. Listen, Yelena will say elsewhere, eat shit, Valentina. And we would like to say here on the record on House of Art, eat shit, John Walker, for your fucking slanderous indictment of Bob's physical fitness. I hope you looked in the rear view mirror and saw those abs. Yeah, because John's like, you missed. It looks like you skipped arm legs. It's like, what about ab day, John? Um.

It's important that they all clock Valentina as they're on their way out. And Yelena is... When she thinks Bob is dead, she's devastated because they are in love and destined to be together. And that is really important. I agree. But she says that was her. She did that to him. To test on someone like that, it's inhuman. And then I'm talking about Taskmaster. She's like, she had a tough life. She killed a lot of people and then she got killed. Like this just sort of like... Yelena...

who can extend like when, when they think that John Walker is the band of them in the, in the fight inside of the bunker. And Yelena's in the same breath. And she says, every man for himself yanks Bob out of the way and is like, stand behind me. So she's got this like protector leadership innately in her. And it's something that she can't see inside of herself at all. And later when Alexi is like, you know, she talks about,

How she's at the bottom of the barrel. We'll talk about that scene more. And he's just sort of like, you light up a room when you walk into it. And I don't see those other parts of you. And that's why you need me here to reflect those other qualities in you. I loved all of these moments with Yelena in the movie. I thought to that she killed a lot of people and then she got killed. That next line, just like all of us one day, that kind of fatalistic...

I know how the rest of my life is going to go. It's a question of when and how, which bullet is it that gets me, but like, I know my fate and to be, to, for part of the journey to be counteracting.

that sense of inevitability to like embrace the fact that there's another path forward and her future could be different and that part of the way to to figure out how that could be so is to like find other people to your point who she can give that to as well it's just so lovely i thought i mean like you said we'll talk about that alexi you'll end up seeing later but the goal the goalie moment i was like

I'm gonna cry. This is so beautiful. Also made me think of Van from Yellow Jackets. I also love her like, so I didn't have to run as much. Great stuff. And that was probably part of why. Of course, too. It was incredible. Okay. Mallory, how much did your heart beat out of your chest when you heard a honking in the distance and the cavalry is here in the shape of

Alexi's tactical beast is what he calls this limo. Protecting you from boring evening indeed. This was a thrill. He's here. I did have a question. I didn't really clock the whole thing until the second time. But the first time I was like, Val got in that limo. But then he later says, I was driving a different limo and I came back home and got this one. I was like, no way Val gets inside of that claptrap limo.

On our way back from something. Let us power rank the things that Alexi says when he picks up the newly minted Thunderbolts in his limo. Great. He calls our walker second coming of Captain America. He says, yes, ghosts. When you reappear, does sometimes thing not pop up in the right place? We know why he's asking. Yeah.

He says, you're a team of scrappy anti-heroes. Very good. He says, aye aye, Cap, when John Walker tells him to do something. Wonderful. He is like...

wants to make sure everyone knows who sponsors the Thunderbolts, that it's Dimitri's Elite Industrial Lighting and Electronics. Shane, he did not have that kind of money. He is genuinely enraged that Yelena thinks Shane was the sponsor. Enraged. Shane. Something about the Wheaties box. And what else do you want to add to the list, Mallory Rubin? To me, there's an easy way. Because he...

drove out, as you noted, heard what was afoot, immediately got the tactical beast and drove across the country. He has some commentary on Oklahoma, how flat it is. Where are we? Do we know? So the first time I saw it, I wasn't sure. I think it's Utah because there was a lot of Utah stuff at the end in the credits. So I think it's Utah. Whether that's where it's supposed to be or just where I was filmed, I have no idea. But because he drove...

a long distance. It didn't stop. It didn't stop. He has some guidance for the group. Yeah. And it is don't drink the big gulp, which we then can do. And it is just chock-a-block full of piss.

But it's got this draw in it, right? And it's just rolling around. John Walker's face, ghost face in that moment. This was just absolute perfection to me. I thought this was incredible. And Yelena is like,

You know, the thing that we heard in Black Widow, the thing that we heard in their first conversation here, and then later, it's like later again in their heart to heart, like she actually does miss him and want him in her life, but she's so embarrassed by him when he's there. And that's the best. And I really understand why. Exactly. I just loved it. Don't drink the big cup.

Nothing you can do about that. Nothing you can do about it. Alexi flips the switch. Pony by Ginuwine starts playing and smoke starts like feeding into the back. And Yelena asks quite appropriately, who are you driving in this thing? Remarkable stuff. And then he's like, pass the vodka. And they're all like, it's not the time. Well, as

As an avid Last of Us player, surely you knew that a Molotov cocktail was in your future. Wonderful stuff. Wonderful stuff. Yelena sticks her entire body out the window, which is one of my favorite action moves that anyone ever does in a car chase, to fire a shot at

one of these armored vehicles and it explodes. And she just sort of is like, it's very, it reminded me of Indiana Jones and the last crusade when that librarian stamps the book. And there's this like the huge sound of Indy trying to like break apart a floor. And he's like looking at his stamp. She's like looking at her gun. So she thinks it's her, but it's not her. And that brings us to someone we have not talked enough about yet.

Bucky Barnes. Before we get into this intro, which is one of the most important things that has ever happened in cinema. Yeah. Yes. We need to rewind quickly and talk about Bucky Barnes. Shit, Congressman. I have to say, there was so much like hue and cry when it was announced that like when it was became apparent that Bucky was going to be a congressman inside of this movie. We learned some information about it. Brave New World, et cetera, et cetera. I love that he's terrible at it.

Like, this isn't a great use of this. Bucky Barnes cannot give an interview. No. Oh, no. Cannot read a packet. Cannot eat a chili dog. No, but I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for that. We had to lose some wires because of that. Suck it on chili dogs and then spilling it all over your crisp white shirt just so that we can see you at a tank top is a great move. And then I love him at the party.

when he's like doing all this cloak and dagger stuff and Congressman Gary, who we have not talked about yet, great Wendell Berry performance is like, we don't do this.

Text me. Read the package. You don't have to like find the spot in the party where the two cameras can't see us. Yeah. What are you doing? I really did. I do have questions still about why. Why do the Bucky congressman thing at all? But like, I do like that he is simultaneously trying to pursue a different life. He's very reluctant to, you know, like.

fall back into the old habits and the old way. He doesn't track phones anymore, Mallory. He doesn't track phones. Like, I can, but I'd rather not. I don't do that anymore. He wants to try, we've been talking about this on Andor, like, what does it look like to operate inside of the halls of power versus outside of them? He wants to give it a go, right, inside of the halls of power, and then finds out it's, like, not for him. I like all of that. It feels to me like a more successful version of

Matt Murdock being like, maybe I could just be a lawyer. You know what I mean? Maybe I could just be a congressman. Bucky, you can't. No. No, you can't, Buck. He does do an okay job recruiting Mel here, but it's still quite clumsy. He's like, if you want to maybe let me know about any secret hidden evidence. She is luring them there, but she's also being converted by the Bucky charm in some way. Listen,

The easiest thing to sell us on in the entire movie is that someone would be like, Bucky Barnes, you want me to call you? Bucky Barnes, you want me to feed you intel? Bucky Barnes, you want me to, Laura, get you into a building where the drywall is not yet complete? Plenty of room to roll around? I'm in. I'm in. That's an easy sell. I thought that Bucky using the dishwasher to clean the vibranium arm was a nice encapsulation. I really wish that happened. I know. I know.

Agreed. Nice encapsulation of the Winter Soldier trying to inhabit this more routine domestic space. The kindergarten moment with Mel was, I don't know if there's just like more evidence for Bucky Barnes' bookworm after the Tolkien mention in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I like, you know, I like the Bucky is a...

you know, an existential, an existentialist. Like, it attracts for me. I believe that. Okay. So he's bad at most of this. I did think, so the two moments where I was like, these are clearly for the other actors who are going to play this role is when we get to the meth addicted spinning chicken, signed spinning chicken.

I have to imagine that they were thinking about Steven Yeun in Sorry to Bother You where he spins a sign for like 15% of that movie and he is phenomenal at it. And then when Mel, when he hands her his...

business card and she says what is are you giving me your trash that was such an iowa debory line to me so um those are the only two moments where i was like slightly missing those people but bucky barnes bad at being a congressman bad at eating a chili dog all these other things

incredible at an entrance and i have to tell you that both times when i watched this movie the first time i watched it with my pal at the press screening the second time it was just me in the back of the theater taking notes like a creep uh i clasped my hands together with glee and joy i gasped i sighed when bucky shows up on the motorcycle yeah with the bucky part like

With the sunglasses, the leather. Wonderful. It wasn't just like yada, yada, yada Winter Soldier. I love the Winter Soldier. But it was also just like the action movie of the 90s vibe of this entrance. The gun is up. We've seen the Winter Soldier hold the gun this way. But with the shades and the leather, it was so...

Arnold Schwarzenegger in Terminator 2. It was so Lorenzo Lamas in Renegade. It was so 90s coded to me in a way that just felt just like a care package wrapped up just for me. And it's like, this was life-changing. This is life-altering when he's throwing the explosives and everything's blowing up. But when he pulls the cable, wraps it around, and then hunches it down into the ground in order to pull up the last armored truck. Astonishing stuff.

I lost my mind. Tell me how it landed for you. I mean, look, like sometimes the mission of this podcast is to spend three to four hours parsing the subtlety and the nuance at the heart of a literary tale. And sometimes the mission of this podcast is to talk about how hot Bucky Barnes is. We can be both. Both things are true. This was so effortlessly cool.

And that's important because it's not the journey of the Thunderbolts forging is not just the cast offs in the vault deciding to team up. Bucky is there's a lot of like parallelism and there are a lot of shared through lines and beats, but also like

Bucky Barnes is Bucky Barnes. And he was Steve Rogers' best friend and he was the Winter Soldier and he was there for all of it. And like, it's actually important to see how cool he is when everybody else is in the limo with bottles of piss rolling around the floor and music they can't figure out how to turn off. Like, for us to see the commonalities and the distinctions, I thought this was a great way to establish this and he just looked truly wonderful. Um...

Why Russell as John Walker when he's like looking at the back of the window he's like Bucky's here. He knows Bucky. Right. They were in Falcon Winter Soldier together. They've been through it. He's like we ended that show on good terms. And Bucky's like but then you did stuff after that show. You made your choices John. But when he sees his Bucky and he's like yeah. And then he sees that Bucky has thrown the explosive at their car. It's just like oh shit. And then the beast just like right. It's so it's so funny.

such a stretch limo giant burgundy stretch limo just like flipping uh almost as long as john walker's very long gun that he's happy to tell you it's very long very very long okay so it is a little long speaking of john walker i do just want to take a moment we i sort of like skipped some of the other john walker moments because i want to do them all at once but like

His Mind Palace memory does a lot of work for us in terms of it's like a great device to sort of help us understand where he is, what's going on. We had some classic weaponized incompetence from him. Oh, fine. You just do it if you don't like the way that I am completely neglecting our child. But there's also just like what I love about John Walker in this movie is he's a punch like.

Yelena and Ava are just constantly making fun of him in a way that is very fun. So he is a punchline.

But then he's also like quite competent elsewhere when Yelena's plan with the lights doesn't work. And Bob's like, I think Walter was right. She's like, it's Walker. You know, too many variables. He shows up, he fucks up, but like he shows up when he like finds them food in the desert, you know, and he's like providing like their way. So he's not just like,

let's make fun of John Walker, which we also do. But like, he's also shows up, does a good job. And I am deeply obsessed with the little look that he and Yelena share when Bucky reveals

In a somewhat clumsy line, but Bucky reveals that his wife and his son left him. They don't talk about it. Wyatt Russell is just sort of like, what are you going to do? I was trying to save face. You know, like, look. I just thought it was really good. I thought he was amazing in the movie, and I did not anticipate this.

I did not anticipate a moment where I care this much about John Walker. Kind of, period. Full stop. So that is a sincere achievement. I think a lot of it was how he played off of the other characters. I think to that point about the pairing of the constant ribbing and insulting with the competence. Like, we even get that. We hear, actually, Yelena even say that later, right? When she's like, you know, part of the Alexei charm is that he has, going back to Black Widow, this, like,

deep fictional history in his mind of how similar he and Captain America are. And so, you know, that great moment when Yelena's like, the difference is that, like, he knows what he's doing. He's actually good at this. And there's that little moment where you see John's face and he's like, oh my God, the gratitude that he is expressing that somebody thinks he's worth a damn. I felt like in the

And even like, again, there were always these pairings of the insult is actually tethered to something real. Like I loved when Ava was like, we get it Walker, you're in the military. But those skills come into play. Right. And I thought in his, in his shame palace memory, like,

Obviously there's everything with his wife and his kid, but the thing that got me the most was like, what is he looking at on his phone? He's sitting there doom scrolling. He's reading an article about the fall of a hero. Like how nobody has ever experienced it. Like this, this, the path that he was on a shield that he should not have had and should not have taken. But then like, you know, this character is confronting the fact that his, because of the choices he made to be clear, but like his life fell apart and to have gone to that high and then

plummeted to this low, very quickly they capture the state that you would be in if that had happened to you. And I, yeah, I just thought it was, it was great.

Really great. I also in that limo fight, there's a moment when Ghost goes out and then they have they have the same frequency that stops her in the vault and throws her back. And he just like hauls her in off the trunk of the limo. And just to sort of like, again, to your point that the way that the action helps tell the story at the same time is everything.

else yeah like and lamar you know was his best friend and his partner like this is actually somebody who wants to work with other people yeah you know he sought out sam and and bucky and was like let's team up and they were like rightly like fuck off but you know he's not inherently opposed to the idea of a unit he just has to work his way back to that point uh on the comedy front long gone obviously great the discussion of the the hat the hat you like do you like the hat oh you mean the helmet like pretty cool right uh well what matters is like do you like it pretty cool

Do you like the head? So good. Do you think that's why Jon is wearing a beret later? No question. No question. Though he also while wearing the beret and they're like, who's the real Avengers? And he's like, well, judging by what they're saying about us in the memes, he's still reading the comments.

John, stay out of the comments, man. Don't do it. Okay. We also get on the way. Alexi and Bucky are talking about what kind of super soldier serum did you get? Incredible stuff. Regular? Hydra? But there's this question of leadership to the point of who's leading the show. Yeah, we can co-lead. We can co-lead. It's funny, but he's sort of like, okay, what's your plan, Mr. Super Soldier? And then...

smash cut to them crashing into the building because Bucky is good at some things. He gives them a sort of inspirational speech when he has them all tied up. But like, I don't know, like, you know, I will say I love Bucky. It was a religious experience to see him show up on the motorcycle. Yeah.

He's not... He's on an arc, but it is not the most meaningful arc that we've seen Bucky on, I think. Sure. High bar to me, certainly. But yeah. So that's why it feels... My mission! It feels so much like Yelena's movie. Because like... And Bob's. I would say that Bucky is not the second lead in this movie. I think it's like Yelena and then Bob. And then maybe even John Walker. And then Bucky. But like Sebastian Stan is at this point...

Oscar nominated star and to your point a mainstay of the MCU that it sort of like feels like he should be the co-lead of this movie but he's not you know why didn't you mention Alexi in the top five people who were most important in the movie number one on my call sheet folks it's he's number four oh god I have a quick question for you yeah does this Pashmita make Val look nurturing it's remarkable stuff

remarkable stuff i you know as we mentioned bob wakes up his first question is about yelena uh but val is is trying to like val is doing a great job emotionally manipulating him she doesn't know what she's dealing with obviously um she has terrible taste in blonde highlights um i think the outfit is gaudy um but she knows how to bait him with she comes in with the sort of like the

The logo design, the buckle design for a century and his eyes immediately zero in it. He's got these delusions of grandeur. He's got these insecurities and she's just poking at all of them in a really quick and efficient way. She says you're perfect. Everybody else in his life is nothing. You don't get it. They don't get it. They're criminals. They're dishonest. You know, they don't get it. I do. I understand you. Yes, she is a paragon of virtue. Mel. Mel.

May have been in high school when the Battle of New York happens, but that doesn't mean she hasn't seen Captain America The First Adventure. She reminds us when you put a serum in someone like Steve Rogers, you get Captain America, but you do it to someone this unstable. She's like, have you heard of Earth's Guide? Can I can I tell you the good word about how we enhance Earth?

The good and the bad. Like one of the most famous lines in the history of the MCU from our sky. And you know, good becomes great. Bad becomes worse. Meth chicken becomes the void. It's been there from the beginning. Always. Put it on the merch. Molly. Meth chicken becomes the void. That should be the tagline. If they release this, re-release this movie. I heard a rumor that they might. If they re-release this movie as new Avengers, can the tagline be meth chicken becomes the void? Yeah.

same color scheme you know the yellow yeah i did find this scene between mel and val when she's talking about being a good girl and she says the line like righteousness without power is just an opinion all of that felt really weirdly clunky to me i didn't really understand the only place it felt like it had in the movie was to give some tension as to whether or not that mel would come help her at the end and then she does right i don't know it um yeah

That takes us to Wigwatch TM with Century TM. Listen, Bob comes walking down the stairs. We got the great fight in the lobby. Like, that was for nothing. That's undercut by Val on the intercom, as you mentioned. Bob makes his entry. I left the door unlocked. Great stuff. Bob makes his entry. Mallory's still seething over the fact that Val is standing where Tony Stark stood and talking about how she's... It's not even just the building and the floor. She's at the bar. It is an outrage and a scandal. What?

Dare she? Yeah, I guess it doesn't do Val any favors, I would say, to be standing right at the bar because when she is lobbying these insults like Junior Varsity Captain America, I'm like, Tony Stark would have done better. Who is this old Santa? Very good. Was Tony worthy?

Yeah. How do you feel about this? It's not point breaker. You need to be more specific with your insults. When she says Congress and Barnes, less than half a term. Yikes. Is your sense that Bucky officially quit and we missed it or just the fact that he or is he going to die in this room or the fact that he is showing up in leather and blowing up things means that there's no way he can continue being a congressman that.

I think the last one. No, I guess it's probably also for Val the second one. Like you're not making it out. So that's a wrap. Could be all of it. Could be all of it. Yeah. But I don't think he formally quit. I don't think it would occur to him to formally quit. Honestly. Maybe he scrawled some message on the packet in the chili. Like, oh, I quit. I'm out. In chili? My two weeks. Anything you want to say about Val Presents Bob here? The wig is beautiful.

bad i think but it's intentionally supposed to look stupid so i'm not upset about it everyone's talking about the hair uh yelena is quite concerned making emotional bids um when val says he's stronger than a team of avengers but together john walker sort of squares his shoulders and then we get this fight um two things one the way that

century emerged the way that bob as as the century walked down those stairs simultaneously so uncomfortable and so proud yeah like getting to peacock and getting to be like this is like it was for the first time ever everyone has cause and reason to look at and adore me and also it feels weird and both of those things are true yeah um the way that he moved in the suit the way that he then talks about the hair i was really like this this reminds me of uh

This is like how I felt at my wedding where I'm like, I gotta put on a dress, I guess. Gotta walk through a room of people pretending like this feels right and normal. The fight itself, I thought was awesome. Just incredible. It is crazy.

The kind of like perfectly executed superhero comic book movie shorthand where you understand the relative power of the people who are engaging in combat with each other. And then it had that extra degree of specificity in how they were embarrassed, how they were mortified. It's not just that he annihilates them.

He hits Bucky in the face with his own fucking vibranium arm. I thought that was... On the one hand, I thought that was so good. Like, so good. And the way that, like...

Ghost then picks up the arm and the guys then pick up Bucky and carry him out. This is like the final moment. Bucky takes off his jacket. He's like, I'm fucking Bucky Barnes. I'm going to take care of this. And then absolutely not on his ass immediately. All of it would have hit a bit better for me if we hadn't seen the de-arming in Falcon and Winter Soldier, which was such a shocking moment. Yeah, true. And I'm like, I feel like I kind of just saw this.

before. Good point. We did get the tacoing of the shield, though. The tacoing of the shield was outstanding. I wish she had been a little gentler on Yelena so that I could continue swimming and sighing. Though at least he only slammed her into the ceiling. He didn't throw her out the window the way he did Red Guardian. He's like, alright, get off. But not like, you know, tacoing shield. And then he did the...

Henry Cavill as Superman. I can see you moving fast around me. Ghost grab thing. Very good. All very, very, very good. Um,

Then Bob revolts and they pull the kill switch moment and then they walk away. And I just, just really bothered me. Why would Val and Mel just walk away from this person who we've already seen get up from a hail of bullets? Yeah, I agree. I think this is actually like kind of, it does tip into being sort of inexplicable and indefensible. Like you should just be more careful and more on top of your shit when the stakes are this high in the story. You being like that character. Yeah.

I guess the other thing, the other the counter argument would be it is very consistent with like her arrogance, her lack of care and arrogance. Yeah, it's just like, all right, well, we had the switch and he's done. So someone else will now come in and clean up my trash. Like, that's what I do. I ask other people to come in and clean up my trash. I don't wait around to do it myself. So the fact that that kind of hubris undid her yet again, I think is fitting. But it is like, oh, my God, you're not just going to like, wait.

Wait, check. Two and a half minutes. Check. What? We watch him slowly turn into the void. Downstairs, the thunderbolts are falling apart. Yelena has like run away and he's slowly turning into the void. I thought the void effect just overall was incredible. I loved it. You see some dimensionality to the darkness and also just the gleam of his eyeballs. I just thought it was like really, really well done. Agreed.

but I also love the effect of like zapping out the, the people turning them into the sort of thing, which is different from the Thanos snap. Yes. Importantly. Okay. Yeah. So Yelena has like run away from the rest of, uh, after insulting everyone, everyone's sort of just like walking away. We're not a team, I guess, blah, blah, blah. She didn't do this. It's like her version of the Peter Quill, like guardians loser speech, except the,

crucial added ingredient of the passersby on the streets of New York and we're like what the hell are you guys talking about I loved that create a little detail there's like one of the biggest laughs in my book yes really close people were cracking off both times I saw the movie at that moment it was just like so funny and they're across the street from Grand Central Station right um I think that's where they were alright anyway so she runs across the street

And Alexi follows her. And Molly Rubin, do you want to sing American Pie to me or what do you want to do in this moment? Bye. I just thought the scene was beautiful. Like we've obviously talked about a lot of what they say to each other, but I thought this was lovely in both directions. Like the hurt and the pain and this sense of like,

despair, really just like despair that Yelena is expressing here. And the way that Alexi, who has like loved her, but not been present the way that she needed him to be, um,

can be for her in this moment. You know, there's a lot of like he uses the dim and the light language, the brightness a lot throughout the movie and that like he can not only be a little bit of a spark of brightness for her, but help her see that that is already there inside of her and that she has given that to other people was just lovely. And they're just both wonderful performers and they're wonderful together. And I thought it was it was really great, really great scene. The thing about Florence Pugh in this.

It's like Florence Pugh is a huge star and a huge star who's like wanted by the highest level of filmmakers that are... Everyone wants Florence Pugh in their movie. Slightly earlier in her career, she signed on to be in the MCU. The MCU is not as cool as it once was. I think that's why Steven Yeun and Ayo Debre were like, we're out of here. Like, so...

She's in this movie and she's giving it every ounce of what she has. She's not embarrassed to be in this movie. She's like, I'm going to make it real. Totally. When she's like, daddy, I'm so alone. She is giving as much to that as I've seen her give to any dramatic performance that she's ever given. And that is what is so important to,

inside of films like this is like the quips are great the action's great but we've talked about this from the very beginning you have to care about the emotional well-being of these characters in order to invest in the heightened wild world that you're watching here and she absolutely crushes it alexi when i look at you i don't see your mistakes this is why we need each other

When I look at you, I don't see her in a mosaics. It was just a beautiful... Oh, my God. Beautiful line. And as she says here and in every trailer, okay, that was pretty good. But it was. It was. It was. It's also... This is why the American Pie stuff in Black Widow got me so much, but he is such a...

goofball, right? And such a dipshit that when these like really earnest, heartfelt moments come out, they're like even more impactful than they would be from somebody who was like consistently very sincere and thoughtful. Yeah.

It was just great. What I love about this formation of the new Avengers is it's all just like a jankier version of our original Avengers. So we get, instead of the Battle of New York, we get like the Battle of this one block of New York. We're in Avengers Tower, but it's like half built. Like all this stuff is just like shabbier and shaggier than Avengers.

than the original flavor. They're all teaming up to stop one really heavy piece of drywall instead of the Chitauri army. And the Chitauri army is mentioned multiple times in the movie as a frame of reference. But they really flipped that piece of concrete, right? They sure did. Alexi tossing Elena, similar to the way that like my dad used to toss us in the pool. I don't know if your dad ever, or like anyone ever, ever did that whole pool toss move. And then the way that Bucky shoulders the car out of the way.

Incredible stuff. Wonderful. The light bulb that goes off of Ravel's head when she sees people clap for them for the Thunderbolts. And she's like, oh, there was an idea. And I can make money off of it. Oh, God. And then Red Guardian saves this little girl only to have her vanish. Tell me about how that played in your theater. Genuine gasp.

from the crowd. Val might say, don't gasp at work, but you can gasp at the movies, folks. It was like, oh, shit. This is, everybody there is about to be sucked into the void. This is what's happening. This is the risk. And of course, you know, to do that with a little kid, it's not only like we've seen this horrible Yelena memory, but just in general, that's going to incite that response from the audience when you see this sweet little child who has been saved and you briefly think it's okay and then they're...

wiped out of existence by the brushstroke of the void. So that was effective and very intense and impactful as a movie-going experience, as was seeing, you know, Alexei's response when Yelena then walks in. Like, this was just, like, kind of nonstop action and intensity and emotional response from the characters in this whole sequence. It was great. Is there any part of you that wishes you didn't know that Lewis Pullman was going to be...

in Avengers Doom Day, which was revealed to us via the back of a chair in promo. Because here's what I'll say. The calculus, I don't do math. The calculus that the storytelling calculus that my brain was doing is like when that little girl disappeared, I was like,

There's literally no way this can be permanent because if he's character is responsible for disappearing a little girl. Yeah. Then there's no way that we can enjoy that. Even if he's just like, I'm just Bob. Now there's no way we can enjoy that character going for it. Now, to be clear, I am.

Multiple people did die. That helicopter crashed into a crane that crashed into a building. So even if we unsnapped everyone who went into the void, people definitely died as a result of what Bob did. And then he's just hanging out. For sure.

With with our heroes, our heroes, a lot of people. So, you know, they say, right, exactly. They've all had to work through having been the source of the harm that befell others. I I didn't mind knowing that. I I don't I mean, the MCU has many times before brought a character in who we thought would be around for a while. And then you're like, oh, this was for one movie.

Weird. But it didn't occur to me that that could happen with Sentry. It's just too big of a character who people for too long have been like, when are you going to get Sentry into the MCU? So I... You say that? And I think especially with Doomsday, you kind of need Sentry to be a part of what's going to happen. That's why the Stinger are like, oh, yeah, we're depowered for now so that we can power up again at the right moment. But would you be wholly surprised...

If Adam Warlock never shows up in another Marvel movie. No, but I think that feels a little different given the gun guardians of it all. It's like hard for me almost to separate how those characters now feel like they're in a different existence than every other character. Yeah, I mean, it has happened before, but yeah. Anyway, I didn't mind knowing it didn't take anything away from me.

here we go. We're almost done. We, we go into a big maze of interconnected shame rooms. Um, uh, we mentioned the moment where Elena puts her hands over her younger self. I thought that was so beautiful. I thought the moment where she fights her drunken self in the bathroom was really, really good. Um,

We get some real like sun's getting real low energy from Yelena when dealing with Bob in the attic here. Not the only Hulk comp, right? Because the way that Bob talks about himself later in the stinger when he's like, oh, like he's basically like the other guy. Like, you know, which is just that's a whole banner thing. So I also really loved the costume on Bob here.

I didn't notice it until the second time around, but he's like dressed in like a blue sweatshirt, brown cords and sneakers. And it's very much like what a kid, you know, he's in his like kid mode and it's what a kid would wear. But like in an adult version, it's not like he's in clothes that you're like, those are children's clothes, but like you could see those like on a kid. And he's like sitting in the attic with like a Rubik's cube and the toys around him. Yeah. I was also like, this is just like what I wear now and what I play with now. But I hear you. It's also what Mal

Mallory Rubin looks like on a daily basis is true. Do love a pair of cords. The Thunderbolts break through to defend them from this evil room. Guardian rips open his evil pillow. But the big laugh, of course, is when it's like, was that okay for you? And Bucky says, oh, I'm fine. I have a great past, so I'm totally fine. Really good. There was never any doubt that they were all going to show up for each other. But I still kind of agree with you that the way that the whole team...

So I really liked this. I will just relate to you. My friend who's out with me, who also really liked it. She was like, she's like, it takes a whole team of superheroes to get one man to go to therapy was her assessment of this moment. I was like, it's so much about Yelena's mental health, too, that I'm just like unwilling to really stay in that space. But yeah, they're kind of all on that. They're all on that journey together. But yeah, we talk Bob down. I like that.

it wasn't punch yourself clean. Like, might equals right has been the case often in the MCU. And I like that this is like, that's actually not the way to go here. That's letting the darkness win. Yeah, the other guy too. Yeah, I liked that a lot as well. Very good. My whole theater lost it, all eight people. No, but at the press tour too, which was bigger, when Bob says I was on meth and I was just thinking about like,

I'm not doing the concern trolling of like, who is this movie for? Which I do sometimes. But I do wonder if people are going to bring their kids. I mean, what did I say? Oh, Sinners. I was watching Sinners and like someone brought their small child to this. And I was like, okay, all right. So like, are kids going to see Thunderbolts? Probably. And be like, what's meth? Well, you gotta learn sometime.

Anything you want to say about the press conference moment that we get at the end of the show? This was just like vintage chef's kiss Val to me. You know, like she knows that they're going to be angry and they're going to pursue her. And so to lead them through the curtain right into a press conference so that they have to just stop still and let her claim her false victory. I thought that was very amusing. Very good. I also love that Bob, again, I have questions about what Bob remembers and what he doesn't. But Yelena's like, you're sticking with us.

because we don't know how stable you are, but Bob just like cheerfully applauding for them and Yelena giving him this like double take. That was good. Good stuff. And then we get double singers. I thought both of these were great. All right. Well, both of them were starring your favorite character. Exactly. The mid credits, the Wheaties thing at the store, you know, we've got, well, first, sorry, take me through the

various media clippings before we even get, because we kind of have a bonus, right? So before we even get to the mid credits. We get Not My Avengers. No, I do have a question. It's Friday. I have not seen any news about this. How I feel about this, I'll be honest with you, how I feel about this will depend on whether or not this art was AI. And I couldn't tell. And I will be bothered if it was. But I will say that all the media stuff of like,

Not my Avengers. Nope. B Avengers instead of A Avengers reminded the B Avengers was one of my favorites because it reminded me of like this headline that we talk about this all the time. This headline that came out of the first San Diego Comic-Con when they announced the lineup for the Avengers and it was Captain America and it was Iron Man and it was Thor and

you know I think it was Variety it was like oh the B-list is making the Avengers because those they were not big stars of the Marvel Universe until the MCU made the big stars so here we are back again the B-list the B-Avengers David Brooks I like them sent me to the moon incredible stuff genuinely so funny did you ride on Bob to get to the moon imagine um

tell me about the Wheaties moment. Did he, was he, he was in his like, that was hopper mode, right? They pulled him off the set of Stranger Things to build that. Like, obviously he wants, you know, he has many moments earlier in the movie where he's like, you know, the point of this is fame and fortune. So like, obviously very amusing to see. Mentioned the Wheaties back because he wants the merch.

to see him like just pushing this box of cereal on this like poor woman is just trying to get her groceries and go home and she doesn't even like know who she is who he is or give a shit great stuff but the hopper mustache being back is like the thing that requires mention and now we have and we can move on to the post credit stinger which I thought was great really really good yeah it's been 14 months again I have some bby questions um

we've got a beret we've got a bad wig on ghost again justice for ghost she needs bucky's hair also very like everyone had a blowout before this scene like and i get it they're the new avengers now well yeah elena's hair is rootier and brassier which i really really liked i thought that was actually really really good uh it's what her hair would have looked like if it had just grown out um alexi has a beard again but it's a smaller beard

And he says stuff like, want to savor it? The bottom of baby seal? The custom... I said on Big Pic this reminded me of an F1 driver's suit. Oh, yeah, of course. It couldn't be more Mallory. Right down to all of the sponsors. Sponsors.

sleeve tied xbox this was incredible and you know we're hearing this discussion of like well there's this issue because sam who didn't want to get the avengers back together in the first place is now like the new who yeah yeah copyright that shit right this is my name my team my group we we hear i did think it was interesting that little quick mention that bucky was like i did try to talk to him it didn't go well um given given their relationship and the importance of it

And Alexi just strolling out and saying, I solved it. And we zoom in on the Z at the end of Avengers. I thought was hysterical and very dumb in a way that I loved. I also thought on the comedy. I already mentioned Bob saying like I did the dishes, which was hysterical to me. And it is important that we learn, you know, before doomsday that he is like currently powered down because obviously he'll have to power up at a key moment. But.

The thing that absolutely killed me in this sequence was talking about space and John's like, oh, okay. Space is enormous. The look on Yelena's face. Like, they're 14 months into being the new Avengers and Yelena is still like, you are a moron. And I can't believe I have to inhabit the same space as you, but also you're my teammate and we're going to figure it out. She's like, outer space? You idiot. I just loved. And then we get that little, yeah, Bucky kind of like,

Shadow mentoring Yelena, who's actually issuing the orders. And they booted up Joe. Another to mention, a ship is that Fantastic Four. It's exciting. I simply don't know what to do with this. It's taking me back to the acolyte moment. The horns on the score. The Fantastic Four horns on the score is really exciting to me. I will say,

The one thing that was missing for when Bucky shows up on the motorcycle was the Winter Soldier screen score. I would have killed for that. That would have been amazing. That would have been great. The Fantastic Four logo. And that is the only sort of major connective tissue we have going forward. And here's what I'll say. This is what I like most about the Stinger. As opposed to so many of the Stingers.

That we've seen in so many of the Marvel movies recently. I'm like, I know.

Right. That this is going to lead into something that I'm sure is coming. Yes. Not just the Fantastic Four movie, but I know that the Thunderbolts are going to be in Doomsday and it's not like I'm never going to see this team again. They made this team and I'm never going to see them again. That's not happening. So like, you know, the New Avengers and Bob. And Bob. Big laugh. We'll return. And Bob. Bob just reading his book in the corner with his milkshake. Loved it.

Do you think he door dashed that milkshake? Great question. I'm sure. Great question. Hard to leave it at the porch when you're on like flora. I don't know. Very high. They're very high. You don't do math. Okay. They're in the penthouse. I know that. That's it for Thunderbolts. A really fun, fun time at the movies that like I had a great time with. Had some like, had some things on its mind, had some emotionality to it. Made me invested in this team going forward. Made me want more. I hope they give like, it sort of reminded me of like, hmm.

almost mantis a little I don't know I'm trying to think of the cop for ghost in terms of like I think she did they gave her very little she did a great job with it and I would like them to give her even more that's probably not gonna happen in something like Avengers Doomsday where there's no room for anything but like give ghosts a little more to do and I would be excited to see it anything else you want to say

Just remember, don't drink the big gulp. That's my party reminder. Drink the Bob milkshake instead. We'll be back for The Last of Us on Monday. So far already. Our second to last and our pod next week. Also, make sure to tune into the Midnight Boys chat with Jake Schreier. I'm excited to hear how that goes. And thanks so much to our ragtag team. Mike Wargen is here. Thank you so much.

John Richter's here. Thank you so much. And we will, our dinner with pal on the, on the feed in general, Joe, me a dinner on the social, our whole, our whole team. We'll see you soon. Bye.