Trump Found Guilty. Now What?
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Voters 50 and over have the power to decide elections. So candidates who want to win need to talk about the issues they care about. Learn more from our latest polling in Pennsylvania at aarp.org slash PA polling. Overnight, Duncan's pumpkin spice coffee has sent folks into a cozy craze. I'm Lauren LaTulip reporting live from home in my hand-knit turtleneck that my nana made me. Mmm, cinnamony. The home with Duncan is where you want to be.

All right, 6 a.m. here in Washington, a live look at New York City, home to 12 ordinary Americans who just wrote history. Good morning, everyone. I'm Casey Hunt. It's wonderful to have you with us just before 6 a.m. here on the East Coast. An unprecedented reality in America. A former president of the United States waking up a convicted felon just five months before voters will have to decide whether to send him back to the Oval Office.

Donald Trump has spent the last four years telling his supporters the 2020 election was stolen from him. And he has spent the last seven weeks telling them the trial was a political sham. Here's what he said yesterday. The real verdict is going to be November 5th by the people. And they know what happened here and everybody knows what happened here. This was done by the Biden administration in order to wound or hurt an opponent, a political opponent.

And I think it's just a disgrace. And we'll keep fighting. We'll fight till the end and we'll win. President Biden's campaign agreeing with Trump on that very first part of what he said, writing this in a statement right after the verdict. Quote, there is still only one way to keep Donald Trump out of the Oval Office, at the ballot box. Convicted felon or not, Trump will be the Republican nominee for president. Donald Trump's allies rushing to his defense. Here was his son.

The Democrats have succeeded in their years long quest to turn America into a whole country. There can be no doubt that that has been their plan all along. This is third world banana republic looks like. Yeah, if this happened in Zimbabwe, we'd be like, that's really bad. Other Trump surrogates suggesting weaponizing other state prosecutors against Democrats.

And with a possible jail sentence for Trump looming, it's setting the stage for the most consequential election in American history this side of the Civil War, presaging a dark, divisive campaign with unpredictable consequences. Our panel is here: David Frum, staff writer for The Atlantic; former White House communications director Kate Bedingfield; former federal prosecutor and CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams; Scott Jennings, who was a former special assistant to President George W. Bush; and the conservative lawyer and contributor to The Atlantic, also a Trump critic,

George Conway, very grateful to have all of you this morning. David Frum, I would like to start with you and then we're gonna contrast what you have had to say about this with what we have heard from Mr. Conway. You write this, "Wrong case, right verdict. "What has been served here is not the justice "that America required after Trump's plot "to overturn the 2020 election, "first by fraud, then by violence.

It's justice instead of an incredible, especially ironic sort driving home to the voting public that before Trump was a constitutional criminal, he got his start as a squalid, hush money paying, document tampering, tabloid sleazeball. What does this phrase mean? The system has found it difficult to hold Trump to account for his crimes against the Constitution.

but for his crimes against the ordinary political process for the kinda stuff the gets you know everyone who runs any kind of dry cleaning store I'm sent to to prison to get some trouble that is tampering with your records to conceal improper activity %uh the system has held into account but I I'm struck by the reaction you talk so much about I'm senator Marco Rubio on who has stood up for American democracy so eloquently in so many other cases last night we did a video comparing the American justice system to that of Castro's Cuba

I think I'm the oldest member of the panel here. I got into politics on the conservative side in the 1970s because I was so affronted by those who attacked the institutions of this country, by those who said things like, this is what Don Trump Jr. said, who said things like that the courts are unfair, who couldn't tell the difference between the United States and foreign dictatorships, who used the flag as an insult, flew it upside down rather than flying it correctly with pride.

When did my team become the hippies here? I thought we were Kirtman. You definitely look like a hippie. I thought we were the Kirtman team who hated hippies and respected juries and respected the courts and respected the institutions of the country and flew the flag right side up.

George Conway, let me bring you on this question and let's show everyone what David was just talking about as well, which is Marco Rubio making that comparison. I believe we have that sound talking about communist Cuba. Let's watch.

We don't have that. Okay, that's fine. George, you write here, the New York Trump case is kind of perfect. Now, you wrote this before this verdict dropped. You said his other criminal cases involved lies about the 2016 election, about the military secrets he stole, but the alleged lies in the People v. Trump strike at the core of his moral putrescence and Trump-ishness.

knows it. What do you make of the verdict that we saw here today? And also David Frum's comments, considering the way this sits in our nation's consciousness and the way it stacks up against some of the other things that Donald Trump is accused of doing. Yeah, well, I actually agreed with everything that David said. And in terms of this verdict, the only thing that really

I was surprised by the fact that so many people were surprised. I was in that courtroom for a number of the days. I read the transcript. I followed along very closely. And this case was never, ever close. It wasn't. There was really no defense. The only defense was that Michael Cohen lied on some other occasions. But on the things that he testified to about Donald Trump and Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal and the catch and kill scheme with

with the National Enquirer, all that was corroborated many, many times over by documents. So I'm just surprised at how many people were kind of unwilling to accept this case. That said, I do, you know, I think that it is, this case really does capture Donald Trump in a way. It captured, it's where he started. He's been a criminal his entire life and he cannot help himself. I mean, he,

If you go out there and you see his son and him all claiming that they are the victims of some mastermind scheme by President Biden, I mean, it's just silly and ridiculous. And Marco Rubio should be ashamed. I mean, if you don't want to be found guilty of falsifying business records,

uh... and in as a felony don't sleep with the porn star don't lie about it don't pair off don't cover up the payoff don't cover off the payoff in the middle of a presidential campaign at the end where you're making it in any contribution and don't don't gross the guy up for taxes using used as a as the front man if you won't want if you don't want to be held liable for rape like donald trump has

don't grab the woman's genitalia. If you don't want to be held liable for defaming the woman that you raped, don't keep lying about what you did and calling her a nutjob. If you don't want to be indicted for overthrowing the Constitution, don't start

a self-coup. If you don't want to be indicted for classified stealing, classified documents and obstructing justice, don't take the classified documents. When the government asks for it back, give them back. If the FBI serves you with a search warrant, don't hide the documents and don't lie about it and don't have your lawyers lie about it. This isn't that hard. Donald Trump is not the victim here. Donald Trump is

does all of these things to himself. And I agree with David. I mean, once upon a time, the Republican Party was the party not just of anti-hippies, but of personal responsibility and of law and order. What party? Where is that party? Here, no one's willing to hold, and the Republican Party's willing to hold Donald Trump to account for his crimes. Crimes that aren't really even in dispute.

And no one is willing to call him out and say he's going to get the nomination. That's just insane, and it just shows the degree of moral rot we have on the conservative side of politics today. Scott Jennings, I think this is for you. Where is that party?

Well, I disagree with a number of things George said, of course. I mean, he's talking about these obvious crimes that were committed. I mean, he's talking about the obvious crimes that were supposedly committed, but that's the core of what a lot of decidedly non-MAGA Republicans are mad about, is that there is no underlying crime. I looked at the statement from Maine Senator Susan Collins, who I think encapsulated it perfectly. She said this was a partisan prosecutor who promised to get Trump out

And that's what he did, not promise to go after the law, but he promised to go after Donald Trump. And so the issue is here, what is the crime? He's never been indicted for or convicted of the campaign finance theory at the core of this case. And so Republicans are wondering today,

you know, what do you have to do to build a defense against something you've never been convicted of in the first place? I'll tell you, the mood in the party, if you're sort of looking for a generalized attitude, reminds me a little bit about the Kavanaugh period. You go back to the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, 2018-2012,

I remember that period being the MAGA people were mad, the non-MAGA, the anti-Trump, the pro-Trump. Every wing of the party was vibratingly angry about what was being done to Kavanaugh. I feel and sense that the same thing is happening today, which is why I think you're probably going to see this backfire politically on the Democrats, and they're going to regret it. I mean, George, I will say I have heard from some people who really don't want to see Trump get elected in the Republican Party who are...

concerned that this is just, this particular case is just going to drive additional enthusiasm for the former president. I'm interested in your response to that. And you got your face in your hands. What do you got to say to Scott? I have to say, I mean, look, I mean, you know, Scott's lying. And that's the problem with the Republican Party. It is continually addicted

to lie. Wait a minute. What am I lying about? You're lying. You're lying, Scott. You're lying about the law. You're lying about what the jury was charged to find. They don't have to find it on the lying crime. They had to find the intent to cover up

and underlying crime. And the underlying crime was pretty obvious. - What was the crime? - You ran for public office, Scott. You ran for public office, Scott. You know you can't take money from somebody and reimburse them if it's a campaign expense. - I've never run for public office. - You know that damn well.

Okay, fine. Well, you're close enough, you're involved in politics to know that, okay? So that's the problem with the Republican Party, is that they are suffused with lies. I don't know why this network is paying Scott to say those lies on his morning show. Whoa, whoa, okay. Let's not go there, George, please. Let's not go there. No, no, no, we should go there. Scott is our colleague, and we're going to treat him respectfully as such. Continue. Well, he shouldn't lie. Here's my question. If it is an obvious crime...

Why did the Department of Justice and the Federal Election Commission take a pass on it? They should have prosecuted it. It should have been prosecuted on January 21, 2021. This is the thing about Donald Trump. Donald Trump has been let off. He should have been indicted for it.

and the fact that the matter is that I'll try to be one of its better than what I hold on please David I don't know that the election commission is is a broken and paralyzed institution on the required it requires a majority got equal numbers of republicans and democrats requires in majority to act and it's not acted on anything for a decade because it has been it is broken and one of the reasons that things are ending up in the criminal justice system

is because the internal political system has been sabotaged by the people then complain that the criminal justice system is the wrong remedy. You know, I want to pick up something else Scott said. This has become an important Republican talking point that Alvin Bragg vowed to punish Donald Trump. That doesn't seem to be true. People are looking at the record to say, where is this promise that you're talking about? And I wonder, maybe they've mistaken Alvin Bragg for Letitia James, the New York State Attorney General who did make that promise.

on but brag actually was the person who declined to bring a criminal action based on the civil frauds that that then one verdicts over half a billion dollars but he's been actually quite cautious not as cautious Marin not Merrick Garland but still quite cautious he was not someone who's chomping at the bit to get this president Scott

uh i disagree i think it's obvious that he wanted to get the president and i think it's obvious that he he did it i mean i i mean he these democrats in new york i mean if you ask the average republican have been desperate to get trump from the beginning and they finally did it and i you know i'm not a lawyer but the political impact of this i am an expert on and i'm telling you right now this has done more to unify the republican party behind trump

than anything else you could have possibly done. I've heard people on TV last night say, now they've got to throw him in jail. We've got to throw him in jail. My advice would be, go right ahead. Ask for the maximum jail time. Go right ahead. Because I would love to see you...

it being a can deal with the consequences of that really can it be a convicted felon were good for you politically we would not have had to wait for 230 years up the life of this republic for people to run for office as convicted felons on historically everyone agreed that's a bad thing to be a pool he didn't know what he did not run for office as a convicted felon he was committed after he started running in a lot of problems with the other he is now today I can't it's not too late for the republican convention to swap them out and find someone who's not a convicted felon

Technically, it is before the convention. After the convention, we might actually see something else. Can I bring in Kate Bedingfield on this, please? Kate, can you kind of help us understand a little bit from the Biden campaign side? Because I will say, when I saw the Biden campaign statement, they declined to call him convicted felon Donald Trump. There had been some conversations that he was going to do that. They said the same thing in the statement, that it was going to be decided at the ballot box. It was relatively restrained. In some ways, that

That does lend some credence a little bit to what Scott is saying, that the way that they need to use this, they're being very careful and considered in how they do it. What is your view of what they're doing and why? Yeah. So look, I think they view this as this is one paint stroke in the portrait they are painting of Donald Trump. It is not the entire portrait. And I think that actually the back and forth and the tenor of this conversation that's been happening this morning illustrates why.

and it's not because being a convicted being a former president a convicted felon and the nominee for your party is not an incredibly significant historic and I would argue for most in the swing voters that from needs to win over a totally unpalatable thing to be up it's because

it it doesn't feel like it has a an impact on the day-to-day lives of people across this country now we can argue that that's sort of a crazy statement that the idea that the major party candidate is it is now a convicted felon I doesn't have resonance with people you know that's that's wild that's what the state of our politics but I think

I I think that that's true and so I think for the Biden campaign what they're trying to do is use this to illustrate Donald Trump is it didn't illustrate their larger case Donald Trump is not fit to return to the Oval Office he brings a sense of chaos he is only about himself I mean that's the other thing about the perpetual victimhood it may motivate his MAGA base there may be partisan republicans who say you know this is an abuse of the system and I'm angry about it he certainly has has figured out a way to fire those folks up but

at the end of the day those people are not to be enough to get him to two hundred seventy votes and we've seen a lot of voters have not tuned in yet the biden campaign still has a significant opportunity to both shape how people think about donald trump and also shape i think about joe biden and so for them to get pulled down into uh... essentially a rabbit hole of making their entire political argument about this case that at the end of the day while incredibly troubling

doesn't have a real impact on people's day-to-day lives I think would be a mistake I think they see it as a would be a mistake and you see that reflected in the statement they know that ultimately this race is going to be won at the ballot box they've got a lot of time to make the case it's one piece of the argument it's not the entire argument and it shouldn't be

Elliott Williams, there's an incredibly weighty decision facing the judge in this case. And if we think that this was an incendiary moment in our politics, a jail sentence for the former president and the current presumptive nominee, Republican nominee, a week before he's supposed to be formally nominated at

the convention would be that much more incendiary. What's weighing on his mind at this point? Absolutely. And I thank you for inviting me to Republican family Thanksgiving dinner here. This has been quite enjoyable to be a fly on the wall for. One of the things that any judge will consider in deciding a sentence is, number one, the crime itself and what's the statutory maximum for the crime. Here it's four years in prison and I believe a $5,000 fine. Now, other factors are going to come in. The defendant's criminal history, the defendant's conduct

during trial and after, wink wink. The defendant's behavior, the defendant's, you know, any violent circumstances of the crime, any number of factors, the possibility of rehabilitation, the possibility of deterring future people,

It becomes a big slurry in which the judge ultimately makes a decision. Big picture, and we can talk about this further, the odds of Donald Trump going to prison at all, I think, are pretty slim. He would probably end up getting probation in some way. He could be sent to prison, and we can talk about that. But really what the judge is looking for are the circumstances of the case, the circumstances of the defendant, and then deciding what's best for the community after that.

I would just say from a political standpoint, the pearl clutching amongst Republicans about the idea that he would go to jail from the people who were cheering Donald Trump's lock her up chant in 2016 is a little rich, I will say. It's a little rich. All right. I think we need some Bloody Marys all around at this point. But Scott and George, I want to thank you very much for joining us. I really appreciate your contributions. Let's continue this conversation perhaps tomorrow. You're welcome to come back anytime.

All right, ahead here, a potential Trump VP pick. Governor Doug Burgum is here with his take on the historic guilty verdicts. Plus, former Congressman Adam Kinzinger, a sharp critic of Donald Trump, joining us to discuss defending democracy. Plus, Oklahoma Senator Mark Wayne Mullen, who calls Thursday's verdicts a dark day for America.

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. What are some of the social service agencies that have supported you and your family growing up? That's Dr. Robert Waldinger. He's a psychiatrist, a professor, and a Zen master. What kind of relationships actually help us maintain happiness? And what should we do in those moments where we have setbacks and things that don't work out? Listen to Chasing Life, streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.

And I think it's just a disgrace and we'll keep fighting, we'll fight till the end and we'll win. And if we don't win, we'll say we won anyway. I have bad news. The only thing you're gonna be fighting to win is the Jell-O cup on your prison cafeteria tray.

34 guilty counts for Donald Trump, the first former president to be criminally convicted in American history. Who would have guessed? Our panel is back, but joining us now is former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger. He is now a CNN political commentator and the author of Renegade: Defending Democracy and Liberty in Our Divided Country. And he, of course, also served on the House January 6th Select Committee. Congressman, I'm very grateful for your time this morning. I just want to ask, first of all, what is your reaction to the verdict in this case?

I mean, it's the right verdict. There's like he violated the law. It's obvious a panel of citizens of American citizens that were picked by both the prosecutor and the defense. I guarantee, by the way, some of those impaneled citizens voted for Donald Trump, heard the evidence and called him guilty.

I get that there's going to be some political hacks out there that want to defend this and want to go after and watching people go after this. But my goodness, watching my party, the party of law and order, absolutely turn their guns against the jury.

against the judge against the system and it's not just like crazy people it's people like marco rubio and lindsey graham this party has lost all ability to think for itself it's not my favorite case the one that i really want to see done because this is what i think is the most important for the american people is the january 6 case in the documents case

but there is no doubt that Donald Trump violated the law and how a single Republican can stand on any network, whether they're paid by this network, whether they're a guest on anywhere and say that what happened is a disgrace, never claimed to be the party of law and order again after that. This to me is just basic. We should be proud that the American legal system worked. So Congressman, there are, as you note, I mean, honestly, it's a

a flood of Republicans, potential vice presidential contenders, as you note Marco Rubio, probably in that category. Part of it is driven by, it seems, the political calculations over what it would mean to go against Trump in this case. The former governor of Maryland, Larry Hogan, now running for Senate in the blue state of Maryland,

Before the verdict was announced, after we knew one was coming, he wrote this on X. He says, regardless of the result, I urge all Americans to respect the verdict and the legal process. At dangerously divided moments in our history, all leaders, regardless of party, must not pour fuel on the fire. With more toxic partisanship, we must reaffirm what has made this nation great. Lasavita, Chris Lasavita, who runs the Trump campaign, he put on top of that, you just ended your campaign.

What is your reaction to that? Look, you and I are old enough to remember when that used to be like two years ago would have been the response of any Republican in office or running for office on any court case. We always used to say things like, look, I'm in the legislative branch. You know, the judiciary is going to do what the judiciary. I'm not a lawyer or I don't have an opinion on this.

And Larry Hogan did what exactly two years ago every Republican anywhere in the country would have done. And by the way, if Donald Trump wants to try to tank Larry Hogan because he's gonna throw a fit, and that could be the difference between the Senate majority, which it probably would be or not, it goes to show how bad Donald Trump really is at politics. Look, the fact is they all have their marching orders. You cannot anymore in this Republican party say things like, "Let's respect law and order,"

Because you're going against the cult. You're going against the leader. And if you go against the leader, you get kicked out. You get made an example of and everybody else lines up in fear. Did you ever think because I never did.

that Lindsey Graham would be out there saying, going against a panel of American citizens, again, some which probably voted for Donald Trump because he's scared to death that in four years when he's up for reelection, he might have to answer for that. I mean, look, the American people deserve far better than the current Republican Party.

All I can tell you is go out and do better than that. But until then, you're going to have subservient people that are going to be doing the bidding of a convicted felon who can't own a weapon, would be discharged from the military today in less than honorable conditions because of this crime, is no longer eligible for even a secret security clearance and can't vote for himself.

remarkable when you lay it out that way and you know Lindsey Graham a former JAG officer I want to show you a little bit congressman of what some on the right in the media that tend to support Donald Trump are saying how they're characterizing this let's watch

Then we're going to vanquish the evil forces that are destroying this republic. It's a sad day for our justice system. The best justice system ever created by man. The foundation of our constitutional republic. It's literally dying before your eyes. So are we going to establish a precedent where the president can put his political opponent in jail? It's the type of power we usually see dictators exercise in China and Cuba and North Korea.

What's the impact of the unified messaging from those types of voices here? Well, it's devastating. All they care about is the political impact. And by the way, they're slowly killing their own party. Let's just be clear about this. You do not survive as a political movement in darkness, in fear, in saying that America is a garbage country or what is it the president said yesterday, we're going down the tubes or something like that. The impact is significant.

the constant darkness, the constant down talking of this country. And this hasn't been just this election cycle. I mean, I even write what you mentioned in my book. I write about it in my book. This has been something we've been peddling in since before I've even ran for Congress in 2010. It's like we recognize that this darkness, this fear, this turning Americans against each other raises a ton of money. It gets us a ton of attention. And this is ultimately a way to do it. Let's keep in mind, I think it was George Conway earlier saying,

This is the party that was chanting, "Lock her up," about Hillary Clinton for doing, by the way, probably significantly less, for being accused of doing even significantly less than what Donald Trump is being accused of at Mar-a-Lago. This is the party that is cheering on the prosecution of Hunter Biden.

agree or disagree with the prosecution of Hunter Biden. The fact is they are weaponizing the DOJ or weaponizing the justice in this situation. And they're using every answer, every chance they can to talk about the legal system as it relates to Hunter Biden to go after Joe Biden.

So they're like the, yeah, the darkness of this is just wrong. Yeah. I think that was our Kate Bedingfield who brought up Hillary Clinton. Thank you for watching earlier on in the hour. Adam Kinzer, Congressman, I'm very grateful to have you and your perspective. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. You bet. See ya. All right. Coming up next, North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum, a potential Trump vice presidential pick here to talk about this guilty verdict. Plus, Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen joins us live. Coming up next.

All right, welcome back to CNN this morning. We're joined now by Oklahoma Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen, who joins us. He was one of the first Republican senators to endorse Donald Trump in the GOP primary. I also want to note, sir, you recently traveled to the Turks and Caicos. You've been working to get Americans detained on those islands back home. And I do want to make sure that we touch on that in our interview. But let's start with the news. We had these 12 jurors who, you know, they're normal people.

New Yorkers, they seem to take their job very seriously. They found the president guilty. Do you question their motivations? No, I don't question their motivation. They were there to do their job. I do question Alan Begg's

I do question the fact that could Trump actually get a fair trial there in New York where you're supposed to be, you know, obviously, uh, your peers are supposed to be the ones that's judging you when you understand this is political moving forward. But the jury did their job. Look, this case is going to be appealed. You know, it's going to be appealed. And most people will say that this is going to be overturned. Uh, and it will be eventually, but this was misdemeanors eight years ago. The only reason why this was even brought up to, uh, criminal cases, uh,

in the first case is because Allen Bragg, he literally ran on prosecuting Trump. So this doesn't surprise anybody and it doesn't change the outcome. In fact, it just really, it reinvigorates the base and says, if you're gonna attack our guy, we're just gonna stand with him stronger. - Do you see any, I mean, do you have any concerns about the potential damage to the system overall in telling Americans, hey, you can't trust a justice system?

You had to repeat that. I'm sorry. We lost connection there for just a second. No problem at all. Do you think there's any danger in saying to Americans, hey, you can't trust your justice system? I didn't say that. I do think that it sets a danger. I'm sorry. I don't want to put words in your mouth. President Trump has been saying that.

Yeah, I think this does damage your judicial system in the simple fact that it's been weaponized. You've had a judicial system that went after a political opponent, and you have a district attorney that literally ran on convicting Donald Trump. That's a problem. When you have a district attorney that can have this much leeway, when you have attorney generals that are in a liberal state or a district attorney in a liberal city that can—

Sorry, I lost. I'm losing connection again. But you have to have them that they can go after a political opponent. That's a huge problem. That's what needs to be looked at. Our judicial system is still something that the rest of the world looks into. And we can't weaponize it to go after political opponents like like is what happened yesterday and actually over the last year.

There have been some state and local officials and elected folks who have argued that now state attorney generals, particularly in red states, should look at Democrats more closely. Do you agree with those types of calls?

No, I don't because at some point this has to stop. If we were going to do that, we could have done that with the Clintons, but we chose not to. I believe we need to allow the political system to work out the way that political system should and and the judicial system should stay out of the way. Just like we try to stay out of getting involved in the judicial branch of the judicial branch of stout or political system as well.

Senator, let me ask you about the work that you've been doing in Turks and Caicos, because a number of Americans who, for the most part, have accidentally included ammunition in their luggage, have run afoul of a new law there aimed at reducing gun crimes and trafficking. But it potentially puts them in prison for up to 12 years, is my understanding. What did you see on the ground there? And what are your hopes to try to make to help the Americans who are stuck in this predicament?

You know, we've been working on this for a couple of months. We didn't go public with it until we got back from Turks and Caicos. And the Turks and Caicos is doing what they can to curb gang violence that's been flowing over from Jamaica and Haiti. I understand what they're trying to do. What happened here is that you had several Americans that had no weapon with them.

They had a bag that had loose rounds of ammunition in it, and they were caught up in an unintentional consequences of a law that was going after gang violence, and it caught tourists on the other hand. They also had a law, and I'm sorry about, hang on one second with me.

Sorry about that, but they have a law that was 100% designed to go after gang violence. And when they did that, they actually passed a law that trumped, no pun intended there, that trumped a current law that they could have used called the Customs Act. And the Customs Act was designed for when someone accidentally brings in a product or something that's illegal in the country you're entering, but legal in the country you left. Sure.

that you can be charging the customs act. This trumped that. And so now you have Americans that are caught up facing a minimum of 12 years. When we had a conversation with them, honestly, it wasn't that productive. And when we were heard, we understood each other. They have a job to do, and that's to protect their island. I respect that. We have a job to do to protect American people. And if their law is unfortunately catching Americans and throwing them

Then we really do have to have a longer conversation about saying, should Americans travel to Turks and Caicos until they change their law? Sure. Very glad to have a little bit of bipartisanship on our show this morning. Senator Mark Wayne Mullen, thank you very much for your time. I'm very grateful.

I'm noteworthy there I think David that he actually said he doesn't think that some and we are seeing some calls to further weaponize the system in a political manner from the right especially the far right I'm he's gonna say no don't do that well but that buys into and a notion about what has already happened is simply false that's fair that but first this is an action by New York State the president of the United States had no authority one way or the other about the actions of New York State on he seems to the the talking points in to mix up the up

New York State Attorney General, who is a political figure, who says political things, with the District Attorney, Alvin Bragg, who is not a political figure and who didn't say the things that Letitia James, the successful candidate for Attorney General, did say. So when you start with the presumption that there is no law, there's only politics, you're already a Marxist.

So let's talk-- the whole point to the non-Marxist is law and politics are different. And not only should they be, they actually are. And that's the thing that everyone in all of our daily lives, we know about the American justice system. You know it's not perfect. No one who's ever been convicted of a crime said, yes, they got me fair and square. Everybody in prison is there as a result of miscarriage of justice. You know that. You've sent people to prison.

- A couple things on this. No one likes sending it, really quick, yes, sir. No one likes sending people to prison. I have, it happens. Just one quick thing I wanna note. Most, I think it's 94 or 95% of the prosecutors in America are elected. They are political figures. They run in partisan elections. That does not mean that every task that they take when they get on the job is a partisan choice. And we can talk about why that's the case.

Anyway, there's a lot to talk about. I mean, it's why faith in the system matters so much. Yes. Right? The idea that we can believe that people are able to set aside what they believe politically and actually make the right decisions. All right, just ahead here, North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum joins me with his reaction to the historic conviction of Donald Trump. Let's not forget, he's under consideration for vice president. Plus... I wish Trump hadn't been indicted on any of this stuff. Get distorted the primary.

If that was true for Ron DeSantis in the primary, what does that mean for President Biden now? All right, welcome back. The word guilty ringing out 34 times in a Manhattan courtroom. Donald Trump facing sentencing in six weeks, just days before the Republican convention and an election in less than six months. Here's how the former president and the man who prosecuted him reacted.

I did my job. We did our job. Many voices out there. The only voice that matters is the voice of the jury, and the jury has spoken. This was a rigged, disgraceful trial. The real verdict is going to be November 5th by the people.

Our next guest is on Donald Trump's shortlist of possible running mates. Let's bring in Republican North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum. Governor, very grateful to have you here today. You were outside the courthouse yesterday meeting with Trump's team. Have you spoken to the former president about this verdict yet? This was a very weighty day for him regardless. How is he taking it in?

- Well, Casey, I was with him yesterday, but that was before the verdict. But I would just have to say that yesterday was a sad day for America, but I'm optimistic this morning. I'm optimistic because I think the trial is part of an eight-year-long attempt to people who have been trying to take down Donald Trump since he won in November '16. And I think the reason why the,

people have a hard time understanding why this may not change the outcome in November or why people are donating in record dollars to Donald Trump yesterday is because

The verdict doesn't affect the average American. If yesterday you were struggling to pay your grocery bill and yesterday you were struggling to pay for your electric bill and you couldn't buy a house because interest rates are too high, you have those same set of problems today. If the border being open had led to some family member who died of a fentanyl poisoning, you still have that same problem today. And this election this fall is going to be about the issues that are affecting American people. It's not going to be about this trial.

Does it give you any pause to potentially serve as the vice president or in another role in a Trump administration, considering the fact that he is the first convicted felon who is a former president?

Well, Casey, I've been clear many, many times. When I was running for president, I was running to be part of somebody else's team. And when I'm supporting President Trump right now, I'm not doing that for a cabinet position or any other consideration. As a governor of a natural resources state, I can see right now that the policies of the Biden administration are affecting every American. Inflation is up.

and we've got wars abroad in part because of the energy policies of the Biden administration. When we try to shut down US energy here, we shove that supply overseas to places that produce it less cleanly than us. So it's bad for the environment, it's bad for the economy, and it's actually funding Iran and Russia

their war efforts against us. And so that's why I'm doing this because if we want our country to succeed, if we want Americans to be able to afford the food, the gas, and have the life, have the American dream, be able to buy a house, we've gotta turn things around in a different direction. And that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. And I think, you know,

It's not causing me any pause because I think everybody knows that it's very tough to get a fair trial for Donald Trump in New York. - So that's a no, it doesn't give you pause?

does not give me pause. - What is your view of how this was handled, these business records were handled? You're a businessman. You have been extraordinarily successful. Is what Donald Trump did here in terms of these payments and the way his company operated, do you view that as above board?

Well, Casey, I mean, as a business person, part of this whole reason is why it doesn't give me pause to keep supporting the president because I'm in shock. This is a seven-year-old set of records payments that were, if there was an alleged that there was a business records filing issue, that's the core of this case. It's about business records and how they were filed.

Since seven years ago, in Manhattan, there's probably been, what, millions, tens of millions of records filed by all of these companies? Is there been any other CEO that's been dragged into court for six weeks because somebody in their accounting department called a legal expense, a legal expense on a check, and then that check went out 34 times, and then all of a sudden now that's 34 felonies. Magically, it gets transformed from a misdemeanor with a two-year statute of limitations into something that becomes a felony thing. And then the American, I mean, if...

If you're in North Dakota today and you're some farmer rancher having coffee, it's not about guilty or innocent. They're probably having coffee this morning. What was the crime? Because the legal experts that have been camped outside of the courthouse the last six weeks, I've watched them all on all these channels, they can't explain what was the crime that was attached

to a business filing that magically turned it from a misdemeanor into 34 felonies. So if the legal experts can't understand it, Americans can't understand it, they're gonna fall back on what are the issues. And I would just say as a test, this is a thought test, why aren't there 100 other CEOs that have been dragged to court in Manhattan? If this is the everyday business as usual, like Alvin Bragg said yesterday, where are all the other cases for seven-year-old business filing cases? There are none. So then you just have to say, well, it looks like it's political to me.

Okay. Governor, before I let you go, you and former President Trump seem to disagree on who should be the next governor of your state. What do you have to say on that?

- Well, I think competition's great for the Republican Party and we're so fortunate in our state that we have two great candidates, my Lieutenant Governor Tammy Miller and our one Congressman Kelly Armstrong. And I'm supporting one, President Trump was supporting the other, but whoever wins that primary in about 12 days from now in North Dakota is gonna have a great governor. - All right, Governor Doug Burgum, very grateful to have you on this consequential day. Thanks very much for your time. - Thank you, Casey.

All right, if it's Friday, it must be Smirconish here to discuss all things Trump and maybe a few other topics. Michael Smirconish, host of CNN's Smirconish. Michael, good morning. Your reaction to what the governor had to say there, particularly, I mean, he's kind of saying, well, he doesn't think Americans are going to care. What do you think?

I think that was a preview of coming attractions offered in a very calm and level-headed manner. What you heard from Doug Burgum, I think, is what you're about to hear from the Trump campaign writ large, although probably with more emotion. And the primary point that they're going to make is that none of this solves what ails Biden, namely acuity issues, the border, and as he stated, inflation.

Nobody knows the impact of this yet. And I've studied all the polling data that preceded the verdict and those individuals who said, well, I might have pause. I might reconsider. I just think the dust needs to settle. But I would be shocked if the bottom were to fall out of the Trump campaign because nothing has caused that. I go back to the Access Hollywood tape. That was the moment that I really thought he was done and I was wrong. So I'm the last one who's going to say this is going to have a significant impact. I don't think that it will.

I mean, as someone who covered every twist and turn of both that campaign and the subsequent Trump administration, I think there were a lot of people who thought not just the Access Hollywood team. You can go back to him criticizing John McCain as a POW, as a thing that a lot of people thought I think was going to end the campaign at the time and never did. Michael, let me show you what Marco Rubio had to say about this. It was raised earlier on in the program because

The way that he put this is very, very stark, especially considering Rubio's heritage here. Let's watch. What's the impact of saying something like that?

It's going to resonate with the base. I have to say, Casey, my own view is that he slept with her, he paid her, and he did it with an eye toward the election. Having said that, it gives me pause the way in which the misdemeanors were elevated to felony status in this particular case. That doesn't mean I'm carrying water for Donald Trump, but as a lawyer...

I feel the same way that I felt is going to sound odd about OJ. I think he killed Nicole Brown Simpson. I think he killed Ron Goldman. But when they sent him away in Las Vegas for stealing his stuff for seven or eight years, as an attorney, I thought, that doesn't sound right to me. Do you think that's ultimately going to mean that swing voters discount this?

That's the, I mean, you know, you and I conversant in the Philly burbs. If we could go out and knock on neighbors' doors today and find out what they think, I think that would be critical. The base isn't going to move, but what do those swing voters say? That's really the critical question. I have to say something else about the polling data that I've been studying. What I notice is,

that when individuals have said, it might give me pause to vote for Donald Trump, it hasn't necessarily been to President Biden's benefit. They go into this amorphous category of, well, maybe I'll vote for somebody else or I'm not sure. So it seems like both of their numbers are really baked in. It's a game of inches. So if this were to impact even a handful of people in those six battleground states, it could be outcome determinative.

All right, Michael Smirconish, always grateful to have you on the program. Thank you, Casey. And I agree with you, those Philly burbs are going to be the absolute center of the next five months. Watch Smirconish tomorrow morning, everybody. Don't miss it, 9 a.m. ET. All right, our panel is back. And I want to kind of flash back to December when there were more than just two candidates in the Republican race. And this is what one of Donald Trump's, honestly, his, at the time,

most significant, when he first got into the race, he was Donald Trump's most significant Republican rival. This is what he said about Donald Trump's indictments. If I could have one thing change, I wish Trump hadn't been indicted on any of this stuff. It also has just crowded out, I think, so much other stuff, and it's sucked out a lot of oxygen. You're saying it made him stronger in a way, and it made it tougher for you and others. I think for the primary, it distorted. Yeah, I think it distorted.

So Kate Bedingfield, I had a source say to me is, especially if Donald Trump ends up with jail time here, is the Biden campaign going to look back on this and think, man, this is actually a turning point where perhaps we lost the election and it's counterintuitive. But the idea is basically that this is something that may galvanize his people behind him. And when you're running as an incumbent, it's a referendum on you. That enthusiasm potentially has a pretty sharp challenge. And we've seen

from this trial I mean the level of oxygen for the president the sitting president has been much lower than frustrated by it yeah I look I think you kind of here to Santa's get to this I mean I do think it is it is motivating for Donald Trump's base I think that is true we've got demonstrably true we've seen that throughout the primary process that's true

I don't think it is appealing. I don't think it's an appealing argument to these swing voters that the Biden campaign is trying to win. And I think the way that they have to thread the needle here, and I think that they will. I mean, you sort of saw this in the statement they put out yesterday. But the way I think they have to thread the needle is, you know, they have to use this to illustrate the larger argument that Donald Trump is only about Donald Trump.

It isn't about, it's not gonna be about the specifics of this case. And I think that is something that the Democrats have to absorb and accept and bake into their campaign strategy moving forward. The ins and outs of how, whether he was found guilty on these particular counts and what the specifics were, it is not going to matter to most swing voters.

what will matter I think is this larger notion that he's a convicted felon who lies and cheats and makes everything about him and will do anything to win and they can draw the large they can paint to a larger picture what he did to try to incite the January 6th

riot which we've seen is problematic for people voters feel uncomfortable about that they feel like it you know it's it's fundamentally un-american so you know I don't think at the end of the day I I don't think the end of the day this is going to help Donald Trump win a general election but I do think the Biden campaign has to be smart about how they use it in order to ensure that outcome David from what do you think it means that we're gonna have a verdict in this case but that it is

Let's just say it, incredibly unlikely that we will see a trial in the January 6th case before voters have to make a decision. Well, the latter is really a problem, but I think the former is powerful. When we talk about swing voters, I think the Biden, if I were the Biden campaign, I would think about two pools of them.

The first are the people who are disaffiliated from the political system, younger people, poorer people. And they are the people who feel that the prices and interest rates and they're disaffected for a lot of reasons. And energizing them is going to be talking about basic issues. But, you know, Biden is president the first place because a lot of people who normally vote Republican, who voted for Mitt Romney, who voted for John McCain,

cross the line to vote for him uniquely for president. In an election where Republicans did well down the ballot, they voted for a Republican senator, a Republican member of the House, and then for Joe Biden. Those people, and there are a pretty big bunch of them, and they are highly connected.

Highly affiliated. They own homes. They have IRAs. They follow the news. They watch you. They care about the law and they don't believe that this country's Cuba and they get mad when someone says it is. Oh, the Cuba stuff drives me nuts and particularly when going back to the Black Lives Matter protests and so on, the allegations that we are worse than South Africa or Venezuela. It's nonsense. And for an...

Back to things that make this country great, and we're gonna end the program soon. Let's just talk for a second about the jury. We have all, as American citizens, either been called for jury duty and sat for jury duty. It is an awesome responsibility. I have dealt with jurors, and it's very powerful. Those 12 people's opinions are the only ones that matter, not Jack Smith, not Donald Trump, not anybody else who's popping off about what's right or wrong. And they took on an awesome responsibility and handled it with distinction, whether we like the out

or not and we should all be grateful for them and keep them safe and protected. One other point, this idea that you can't get a fair trial in New York City. I know that we had guests on today, one of whom, Mark Wayne Mullen, comes from a district that was 73 or 72% voted for Donald Trump, 23 not.

Bismarck, North Dakota, where Governor Burgum is from, voted for Trump 69 to 28%. I'd love to ask them if a Democrat could get, if they would say that a Democrat could get a fair trial there. The answer is yes, because people get fair trials all over the country. The idea that merely because there's a political split that the criminal justice system falls apart is just nonsense. All right, well, that's a good note to end on. We could talk about this all day, but our time is up. Thanks to our panel. Thanks to you for being here. I'm Casey Hunt. Don't go anywhere. CNN News Central starts right now.

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