Creating The Realm with Amanda Knight and Jim Clay
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The Valyrian capital was built into a volcano, much like Dragonstone. And the Dragonlords, the highest of the nobility, lived here. The volcanic face, closest to the source of their magic and power. And this was the Anokrion, where the blood mages worked their craft. It is truly wondrous what you've built.

You know, the amount of detail that goes into Viserys's model of old Valyria, it's so above and beyond like what is actually necessary. Mm-hmm.

And I think that's part of that's what gives it this lived in. It's amazing. The camera is not going to lovingly dip into some backstreet in the middle of this model so that we can really, you know, soak in the detail. Appreciate the texture. Absolutely. But it's clear when you watch, you know, some of the featurettes, some of the behind the scenes. Yeah, totally. Stuff that all of that detail is absolutely there. It's so cool. For sure.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I'm Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd App podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everyone, whether you are an OG Thrones watcher or you just started your journey with the HBO original series, House of the Dragon.

So Greta, we've done many, many cool episodes, if I may say so myself. Yeah. And I think this is one I've been really looking forward to. Same. Because it's about all the small details, all the fine, you know, little things, the brush strokes that make this show feel like an actual lived-in world. We'll be talking to House of the Dragons production designer Jim Clay and hair and makeup designer Amanda Knight. Just make this world feel so real. Yeah.

Yes, I am super excited about this. I mean, obviously, it's amazing to get to talk to the actors who we get to see on the screen. It's such a treat to get to talk to showrunners and scriptwriters. But I'm so fascinated by all of the work that goes in behind the scenes to make this show as realistic and believable as it is, despite the fact or maybe even like benefited by the fact that there are dragons as well. So I think this is going to be a really fun one. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And similar to the conversation we had with Ramin, I think the thing that I'm looking forward to is, you mentioned talking to the incredibly talented actors.

who populate this show is, you know, talking to Jim and Amanda and Ramin, there's something relatable or at least attainable in this form of creative endeavor. You know, it's like, listen, I don't know about you, but I think Fabian Frankel is a better looking guy than me. And I don't think there's any way that I could have ever, you know, played a knight of the Kings guard, but I think I could have,

you know, if I worked really hard, maybe I could have wrote some music that could have appeared in something. I think if I applied myself really hard and was like terribly creative, like maybe I could have made some of the models or different props for this. Yeah. I think you would have made a really good groundsman, Jason. Yeah.

But no, I totally get what you're saying. And I think what's really exciting is these are jobs that real humans have, but these are also jobs that real humans at the top of their game have. Absolutely. Even if it is super specific and kind of arcane. Like, that's partly what I'm so excited about is especially, you know, like the drafts people and stuff. Like people are making swords for this show, you know? I just think that's super cool. So we're going to talk to two of the people this week who are kind of helping make all that awesome stuff happen.

So Jason, today we're talking production design and hair and makeup. I would love to focus a little bit on hair and makeup at first. The most remarkable thing, I think, from this series when it comes to that is Viserys' transformation. Like, I just have so many questions about

about, I mean, he looked like a zombie by the end. He was like actively disintegrating. I just can't wait to have that conversation about how they kind of worked through that, all the problem solving that went into it. What are some other hair and makeup elements that you found especially interesting? Well, first of all, that one is... Wait. I think you're absolutely right. It's got to be front and center. I saw a picture on Patty's Instagram. Oh my God, it's shocking.

It was the partial makeup of the Viserys, basically dead Viserys with the no eye and have his face falling off. And it was like peeled back in a really kind of like troubling way. And then Patty's like smiling broadly and happily underneath this kind of like peeled back mask. It looked absolutely...

But it's all part and parcel of like creating this world that feels bloody and feels visceral. Like another one for me is, you know, Eamon's eye when it was all patched up and how, how like swollen and gnarly, like it looked like a fresh wound. Yeah. But a fresh wound, such a pleasure, you know, really enjoying that ultra HD, whatever, whatever. Yeah.

I don't know, though. I mean, even more broadly, just thinking about all the wigs. I mean, that was something that Matt Smith brought up in your Comic-Con conversation. Oh, yeah. And it must really, as a performer, I would imagine, and I think Matt and others have spoken about this, is you see yourself with the wig on, some of that first makeup, and now you begin to feel like, oh, maybe I'm standing in this person's shoes a little bit.

It's really such an important part of the process. And, you know, as a kind of like very small peek in when I was doing the the burning questions segments for HBO socials, they flew out like a maester robe from like the vault in Belfast.

I didn't know they flew that out for you. I thought you just had that. I thought like, hey, at worst, just go down to Party City and get like a maester robe. Like I'm not... Yeah, I figured you would just get like an Ewok robe or something and call it a day. It came with like a full instruction manual, like a binder that had pages and pages of pictures of the actor who wore it on the program, different angles of the actor wearing the garment and instructions about...

about how it's supposed to be pinned up, how you're supposed to get into and out of it. The amount of thought that goes into all this stuff that will never reach the attention of the viewer, it's truly incredible. It's such a cool level of expertise. And I think the same can be said for production design too, right? I mean, it's like a lot of what we've talked about also with scoring where if it's done well, it's great. And if it's not, it's a problem. Right.

But I think, you know, Thrones in general is a show where it's just all done really well. Yeah. Like you with the hair and makeup, when it comes to the production design, I want to know about the gross stuff. Like, I love, we all love the Iron Throne. We love the balls of the small council that very small council ministers use to, you know, mark their attendance. We love the swords. We love the crowns. Everybody loves that stuff. I love it. Mm-hmm.

But like as a little bit of a horror fan, like I want to know how they made the crab feeder's torso. You think they've 3D printed that? You think that's just like some styrofoam that they carved out? You think it's clay? Yeah.

I don't know. It's I am both disgusted and also curious. I have to I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry that I did this. And like, are they looking up like states of decomposition of bodies to figure out what these are going to look like? Right. And like, how do you decide what grayscale even looks like at all? You know?

As a person, I'm sure you know, like as a person who works in a collaborative business, you know, we bounce ideas off of each other. Say, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? Yeah. Look at a lot of dead bodies a lot of the time. You know, I imagine being like, hey, you want to come and take a look at the crab feeder's half a body and see what you think? Is this what you were thinking of? Yeah. You see, Damon cut him like this, right? Well, like, this is a great start, but I do actually have some notes. Yeah, right?

I'd like a little more viscera, you know, and just don't think there's quite enough dangling out. Yeah. Like what if I saw his duodenum kind of like poking out of the gash? Yeah.

I think we'd be really good at this. I think we should go for production design. Right. Corpse design. We're the corpse designers. Also, you know who's got to have the best costume, like Halloween costumes? Hair and makeup professionals and production design professionals. Oh my God. Absolutely. Well, you know, and it's like, especially like the significant others of those people, I bet. Oh, it's got to be so cool to just be like, what are you making? Well, I'm 3D printing like the exact...

Iron Man 3, Mark 3, like, you know, costume. It's like, okay, thanks a lot. Great. I guess I won't go to this party then. I'm going to stay home and watch Bridget Jones's diary. All right, Jason, what do you say? Obviously, we have a lot of questions. Should we get to the interviews? Yeah, you don't want to talk about dissected corpses anymore? Yeah, let's do it. Let's get to the interviews. Let's do it.

Today we're joined by makeup artist and hair designer Amanda Knight. Amanda is best known for her creations on The Fifth Element, the Harry Potter series, the Star Wars movies, just a few, you know, small projects that you may or may not have heard of. She was nominated for an Oscar for Best Achievement in Makeup for Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part II. And she's also the director of the Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows

And now you know Amanda for her makeup and hair transformations on the HBO original House of the Dragon. Amanda, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast.

Thank you for having me. Amanda, I'm especially excited to talk with you because, and this is something Jason and I have talked about a little bit on this show, but Game of Thrones, this franchise is so well known for being a show that not only obviously brings great talent in terms of showrunners and actors, but really everyone behind the scenes too is working so hard and on such intense details to make this show as believable and as fascinating as possible. And you are absolutely part of that. So thank you for taking the time.

Thank you. Yeah, no, I was so excited to be joining. You know, I've done some franchises, but this one is up there amongst them all, isn't it? So it's exciting to be part of. So how much of that job is just wig management? Oh, my goodness. Well, yeah, sort of I inherited the helping out with that department.

It's such a thing. You know, on Game of Thrones, you had one, two people with blonde hair. And on this, we've got practically the entire cast with a white wig on. And it's just massive. And they've all got a bald cap underneath. They all have several wigs each. Because, you know, even the smoke and atmos effects, by lunchtime, some of them can start looking like a dark grey colour. Yeah.

We're frantically trying to sort of get some alcohol and take the color out. And it's anything, everything. They're so unforgiving. You've got to be right on top of your game the whole time. Looking at your...

incredibly impressive IMDB. And it's clear you've worked mainly on features, House of the Dragon being one of the first television shows that you've worked on. It's clear that you're bringing this kind of cinema quality makeup and hair design to the screen. What are the things involved in that? Because with a show like House of the Dragon, it's

immersion is key, right? If the audience feels like, oh, that's fake, that's not real, that's taking me out of it, then the whole thing kind of falls apart. How do you approach creating this immersive, seamless design with the things that you create for the show? Well, firstly, I mean, it's a huge, huge production. I wasn't prepared for how big it is. Like you say, it's my first TV show of this size.

They expect a standard film quality standard. That's expected without even saying. But, you know, we have two units shooting simultaneously and it's making sure that the wig's in the right country for the right actor. LAUGHTER

That's amazing. Like, that alone is probably a full-time job, right? The wig is on business class right now on the way to Belfast. You joke about that. I mean, sometimes we did have the old wig mules going out to Spain last minute because, you know, or sometimes the actors were given them hand luggage to take with them and keeping track of where they were was quite something. Oh my God, the phrase wig mule. I just can't get over it.

I love it.

And it takes so long to get those white wigs on and get them looking good. So, you know, we'd have two people, two team members working on each actor in the morning to cut down the time. Otherwise, you know, they'll be in the chair. We got it down to an hour and that's with two of us working on them.

And that's flat out. Sometimes with the more intricate up hairstyles for the girls, it was a little bit longer in the chair, but we had to get that down as quick as we could. But, you know, we're learning all the time. Every job you go on, it doesn't matter how many jobs I've done, you learn all the time. Yeah.

And, you know, we sort of got it down to how, you know, I'm still I can't wait. Season two, I can't wait because I've got so many improvements in my head going on. You've got to make it look real. If the wigs look awful, if the makeup's not right, you know, it's got to be believable. And it's a big shears to step into following up on Game of Thrones, which had such a huge following.

it was so done so well. Everyone's eyes are going to be on it looking to, you know, find faults or criticize. And, you know, you've got to believe it to get immersed in that. So you said it took an hour with two people. Is that that's just the wigs, right? That doesn't even include makeup or did it include everything? Yeah, that's makeup. So somebody would do start the makeup. Somebody would start wrapping the hair at

the same time and then you'd sort of pop a bald cap on each bald cap we had made for each actor we found the best way of doing it rather than you know sort of a bald cap that was you know an off the peg one we had them all made bespoke to the actor's own hairline so we had a team of trainees painting bald caps

making them exactly to the actor's hairline. They were my bald cap fairies. Bald cap fairies and wig mules. You know, and it helped speed up our thing because we weren't bleeding away a great amount of bald cap material. It was just me that they would sit on and they'd fit straight away. And you mentioned some of the different hairstyles for the ladies in particular, some braids and half ponytails and things up and stuff. But it's not just...

The way they look, it's almost like athletic wear. Like there's some serious action scenes that go into the making of this show. How does it all stay on? I guess that's the thing that I'm always wondering is like, how does it not just come flying off?

There's a lot of work that goes on underneath. I mean, it does depend on how much hair some of the actors have got to go underneath the wigs. So Millie, for instance, had a lot of hair. So she did. Kev and Roz did a lot of wrapping of the hair to make sure that that was...

you know, neatly done as possible and as small as possible. I mean, she came back when we did some research, she came back at the end and she'd had her hair cut off and oh my God, it was so much easier. So much easier. We were like, why couldn't you have done that in the beginning? Yeah.

But then the boys wanted to start shaving their heads, shaving their own heads to speed up the process. How long will we have to be in the chair if we shave our heads? And, you know, but it is underneath is key to what goes on as much as the wig to make them stay on and shine.

And Matt's a bit naughty. He's always taking the pins out. It doesn't matter how many times we pin on that head. And, you know, sometimes we'd take it off when we'd find like six pins holding his wig on, which was fine for some scenes. But, you know, when you're in the Stepstones doing battle with the crab feeder. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. How that stayed on, I'm not sure. Yeah, you mentioned the crab feeder who I think along with the

you know, steady decline of King Viserys are certainly the most notable makeup transformations in season one of House of the Dragon. Take us into some of the designs there and how you created those effects. I mean, particularly if anyone wants to go to Amanda's Instagram, there are some wonderful images

And terrifying shots there, most notably of Paddy underneath the old Viserys makeup. His face, you know, smiling terrifyingly from underneath the makeup. Yeah, take us into those effects. Well, all of those were made by either a prosthetics designer, which was Barry Gower, who worked on all the Game of Thrones. And so he has a big studio in Kent where he designs and he makes all

all of the rubber bits that go on and he comes along and his team. And, you know, so Vizeres was like a big...

you know, it starts off with being our baby. And then we had to find a way of finding out where all these sores, we wanted continuity of how they were going to shoot the end sequence so that we could start some sort of small sore appearing. And it's in the same place all the time. So there's a continuity of these sores and the fingers falling off and, you know, all of that going on. But it was, I mean, Paddy, we had to,

best time doing his makeup. It was, you know, it went from being an hour like most of the Targaryen makeups to being, you know, four hours, five hours in the chair. And, you know, we had such fun with him and it was listening to his boxing podcasts and he'd have a little sleep. So I've learned so much about boxing from Paddy and...

You know, and he'd have a little sleep and then he'd have a break and have his breakfast, you know, sitting in a chair for four hours. That's a lot. It's a long time. But, yeah,

you know we sort of plotted out a plan between Barry and myself of where that was going to go and how he would deteriorate and how far that went and you know and of course in the end we had to have a bit of help with visual effects because we could only add to take away the eyes obviously visual effects but um that was such a process of we had concept artists drawing lots of

things like that but you know Paddy was so you know inclusive with it all he was he had a say of like let's try this and let's try that and it was it was a nice collaboration between us all

Let's zoom out for a second. How did you get started in this business? What was the thing that drew you to this? So my father was a makeup man. He did the old Hammer House of Horror films. Oh, wonderful. Christopher Lee and all the rest. So he said he told me that I couldn't do this and I should get a proper job.

So I did that six months and it wasn't for me a proper job. So then I went off to, you know, sort of make up school and learnt my bit and then did my training with him on some of his films that he'd worked on, you know, not being paid. But, you know, you were allowed to do that then. You know, that was your sort of internship was, you know, and I had the luxury of staying at home with him and travelling with him. So I could do that and just sort of shadowed him.

to learn the trade. So what was the quote unquote normal job you tried for six months? I think it was an insurance company. Oh my gosh.

That was my proper job. That's so funny. I would love to hear what some of your favorite, I mean, this seems like a job that you're doing so many different things in any given day. You're like managing people. You're listening to boxing podcasts. You are doing so much creative problem solving, the logistics of it all. What is the most exciting part of it? Like what gets you out of bed every morning on a day that, you know, also is arguably super grueling?

Yeah, some of the days were super, super hard. It was, you know, the long hours and some of those days when we'd had Paddy in for a few days on the truck, you know, the hours that we did then. But, you know, my favourite part of it and what gets me up is,

is doing the design of it, the first look. So finding Rhaenyra, finding Alison, finding all of those and sort of, you know, sitting down with the actors and Miguel and Ryan and chatting through what they are, who they are and their sort of characteristics that I can help

and create these characters. It's sort of once they're created, you know, then it's their journey. So once we've done that, then it's finding their journey. And some of Rhaenyra's birthing scenes, you know, Miguel was like, he said, bring out all your tools to make Rhaenyra look as terrible as possible. And we showed Emma some of the tricks that we can do with a mental stick and different things. But that's sort of, it's those scenes and those bits that really I enjoy doing.

What are some of those tricks? I'd love to know. Yeah, it's as much as a trick of doing that to make them look horrendous as it is to make them look beautiful. There's always, you know, it's a bit of both ways. It's a story. We're storytellers. So that's what we're trying to get across. And anything that we can do to help the actors, you know, portray that is greatly appreciated. So are you reading the source material then? Did you read Fire and Blood for this one?

Well, I listen to it. I listen to the book. And are you listening or, you know, how much are you thinking through how? Because, you know, I'm sure, you know, obviously there are some physical descriptions, but you're still your job isn't just to, you know, create what's in the text. You're adding a new layer. Yeah, no, I know exactly what you mean. You have in your head how you think there will be. But then you have to wait until somebody's been cast.

And once that person's been cast, then you're like, okay, so that's the face we're doing this on. And then, you know, then we'll, we'll then talk with the costume designer about what they're doing. It's, it's a big collaboration. And then Miguel and Ron will give us a backstory of, you know, what they're thinking, where they want to go. And sometimes, you know, you've got to hold back because you've got to leave yourself somewhere to go with those characters as well. Yeah.

I mean, with Rhaenyra and Alicent, you know, with the youthfulness, keeping them young and rosy and then not too much makeup. When we did the jump to Emma, making sure that Emma looked young in the beginning, not too much makeup. And then we could add some makeup later on. They don't need much, but it's just to make help with that. So there's always that story that's going to go on.

Understanding that you have a whole team that you're collaborating with

Was there a character or a hairstyle or a particular makeup execution that was just the most fun to do? There was so many. I mean, watching Emma change was, it sort of, it was quite magical how it happened in front of your eyes. They will come into the makeup trailer with a big hoodie on and then leave a princess. The transformation was incredible. So always that moment was great. Yeah.

The other one for me was Eamon just sitting there, you know, putting that white wig on him first thing and putting the scar on and then the eye patch. It was just...

I don't think any of us were ready. He just wears it so well. You know, we said it at the time. And now having watched the series, it's just incredible to see. He's amazing. So those two are sort of one of the standouts. We enjoyed doing Matt's scars, but you didn't see a great deal of them. I think at six you saw a bit of them.

And I think Matt was pleasantly surprised. He thought it was going to take hours, but there was three of us worked on them and we did it quite quickly. So that was quite a rewarding makeup to do as well. It's really interesting to hear you mention, you know, putting time in on scars that then the camera didn't end up spending that much time on. This is something we've talked about a little bit in other aspects too, but I think that's partly what is so fascinating about a series like Game of Thrones, right? Is like,

You could spend time on something to lend to the realism of the show that viewers won't even realize were part of it.

This is true. There is a lot of our work. I mean, to be fair, Miguel, whenever he shot it and, you know, all the other directors, they did try and make sure that everything that we did was seen, even the small things, even down to some of the extras on the beach, you know, with the crab feeder and the scars there. And they tried to make sure that everything that we took a lot of time to do, it was seen on camera. But, you know, it doesn't always happen like that. And

The scars are there on Matt. It's part of his character now. So I think it will come back in years to come. I think we're going to see more of my scars. OK, OK. Well, it's November as we record this, but I have to ask, what is the Halloween season like for Amanda Knight and the Amanda Knight household? Because I would imagine if I knew you, if you if we were if we were friends, you'd

Sometime around mid-September, I'd be ringing you up, emailing you, saying, hey,

like to schedule some time to get in there for my whatever Halloween costume is going to be, my Halloween creation. Oh, yes. Halloween is a big thing. We do big Halloweens. When my kids were at school and they were doing dress-up days, you know, World Book Day and things like that, they had some of the best costumes. I used to have a queue of kids waiting outside the local village shop, waiting for me to arrive with some white makeup or some this or some that.

The teachers didn't recognize my daughter when she went in once. She went in with Professor Tonks from Harry Potter and she had the wig and the punky makeup. And as she walked up the steps, the teachers were saying, who is that? Oh, my gosh. Well, that's so funny. I can imagine the parents of other kids being like, well, God damn it, an Oscar-nominated movie. What am I supposed to do with it? How do I compete with that?

with that can't compete with that yeah no but then I would go and share the love and do it for all the other kids at the school and in fact I used to go and do um you know they wanted face painting for the local Christmas fair and stuff like that but none of them wanted face paint they all wanted scars and blood so that's yeah that's how I spent my kids school life

I love that. So I would love, I'm super curious if there is a scene, going back to that idea of, you know, notable moments in hair and makeup in this show. You know, we talked a little about Crabfeeder. We talked a little bit about Viserys.

But is there a scene that you would invite us to go back and watch with new eyes when it comes to thinking, you know, a scene that you're particularly proud of your work and your team in terms of hair and makeup? Oh, that's a tricky one. I guess maybe the wedding. The wedding that I'm referring to is Leonor and Rhaenyra's wedding because that was a huge, we had practically every single cast in for three weeks.

So that was a marathon, getting all of the, it was so cast heavy, getting them all ready. Well, actually both the weddings, because that up the mountain in Portugal for Damon and Rhaenyra's wedding, that was quite a special moment. We trekked up this mountain, which used to take us like sort of,

45 minutes to walk up the mountain I was thinking how's my white wigs going to look at the top of that mountain you know with them sweating but you know it was such a the fog came in and

And it was, it started raining and Miguel was like, just, I want this. I want this. This is brilliant for, you know, and it's me like, get somebody, get an umbrella over them and put a rain hat on them. And, but he said, no, I want this. This is great. He said, I love this. Let's go with it. Mm.

And it worked for what the scene was. It worked beautifully. That's amazing. I loved the bit with Damon coming out with the car for Crabfeeder. Yeah. Covered in blood. I think that was an iconic moment.

That was. That was like, oh, we're watching a Game of Thrones show. Yeah, it was exactly that because Matt and I sent a picture to Miguel. I think Miguel was off with COVID when we shot that. And we sent him a sneaky picture of Matt covered in the blood. He said, yes, now you're in Game of Thrones. Well, thinking about that scene...

And that episode, which is such an action episode, in particular, your career, you've seen so many changes in the way that TV and film is made from shooting on film to shooting on digital, practical effects, working now hand in hand with CG and other kind of digital effects. How do you think about those changes and how has that affected the way you work moving from a more in-camera heavy kind of way to the kind of like digital after effects that go on now?

I think it's done a bit of a circle, to be fair, the digital effects, because I think, you know, I did Braveheart many years ago and that we had 2000 extras before they used to. Now they will CG in the last sort of 500 of them, whereas we had all of them on that and we did everything practically. And it's sort of done about a big about circle because then watched all through my Harry Potter days of 10 years of Harry Potter, the

the visual effects improved so much and then it became a bit of a thing where you know some of the shows they said don't worry about the blood we'll put the blood in afterwards

And you can always see it. For me, I can always see because it's not in the face. You know, we do small things to the face. If you're going to get a big cut, it's going to do other things to your face as well. Your eye is going to be smarting. Your nose might run. And, you know, if you've had it taken a big hit. And that's the stuff that they don't do and that we do. And I think now we're sort of trying to come back around and try and do as much practically as we can.

And then they'll just add to it. And I think you can tell that when that's been done. Those are my sort of favorite collaborations is when you, you know, I mean, like, I mean, look at Voldemort. Yeah.

because it was just slightly off. But I think it is beginning to do a circle. So I think there's a world where it's great, but I think as much practically that you can do and then any bit of help that you need from visual effects is great that they can do that.

Can you watch TV and movies? Like, are you able? Are you? I just heard you talk about. Are your kids like mom? Please stop. If they digitally add the blood, I can tell how. Are you able to just disconnect from the craft part of your brain and and allow yourself to just watch stuff? Or is that always going? Yeah.

Yeah, I immerse myself in the story and forget about all of that. But also, you know, it's all very well to sort of say, oh, that didn't look that good or this didn't look that good. But you never know the circumstances. You know, I've had so many years of experience now that you know that when something's, you know, somebody's done a scene where, you know, the wig lace is starting to come, it's come off, it's been on for 14 hours and that's when they want to do your close-up.

or they'll decide to shoot something and then change their minds about how it's going to look. There's always things. So, you know, it's very hard to sort of criticise other people's work because you never know the circumstances of what they've had to deal with.

That's funny. I don't always hear about expertise leading to more empathy, but it seems like that really is the case for you. Well, yeah, you know how you know the things that can go wrong, you know. Right. Yeah. When I first started, you know, and somebody had said, oh, yeah, stick this ball cap on. I've gone, yeah, no problem. Of course I'll do it.

Whereas now I'm like, yeah, but do you understand the problems? And do you like, you know, if you shoot it from the back, there's always going to be a crease here and here. And so I'm always, whereas I would never have, I would just, you know, when I was young, I'd have just jumped in and said, yes, of course. Yeah. But now I'm trying to tell everyone the pitfalls before. So they go in with an open eyes to what to expect. So are you team green or team black? Oh.

Pick a side, Amanda. I can't. No, I'm not going to pick a team. You're going to abstain? I'm team makeup and hair. Yeah.

I like that a lot. Actually, that's a very good answer. Everybody wins. Everyone wins. Yeah, no, we are. I have such a huge department that are amazing. And you can't do it without all those boys and girls that do so much hard work on this show. And we're all super excited to be going back again for season two and making it better this time.

Well, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a wonderful conversation. Yes, thank you. You're very welcome. Take care. Today, we are delighted to welcome Jim Clay to the podcast. Jim is a production designer known for Children of Men, Belfast, Love Actually, and Murder on the Orient Express. And Jim is also the production designer on the HBO original House of the Dragon. Jim, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Thanks very much. Good to be here.

So can we start with just like super basic, you know, explain to a kindergartner like what actually is a production designer? Well, it sounds rather grand, but as a single statement, I usually say that the role of the production designer is to create the psychological climate for the director's narrative. And what that means in reality is in practical terms,

is, you know, in the initial stages of production, you determine how and where we will make the show, i.e. locations, built set on film stages or backlots, or a combination of both, and, you know, which countries to work in. And then you set about designing, budgeting, agreeing all of that with directors and producers and cinematographers, and really bringing to the screen all the visual content of the movie.

Let's talk about some of the scenes from the show. Let's start with Queen Emma's funeral scene, which is kind of our first look at a traditional Targaryen funeral rite. I wonder if you could take us through all the preparations, all the things that were needed to create that atmosphere. We were filming in Cornwall and...

One of the issues we have these days with filming out in the countryside is what we call SSSI, which is Areas of Specific Scientific Interest. And that means, you know, insects, fauna, plants, anything that is not of the human species. And inevitably, everywhere we go with House of the Dragon, it involves lots of people, a big footprint.

smoke and fire and dragons and all the rest. So we found several locations for the funeral scene, most of which we were refused permission because of the SSSI protocol. Eventually we found somewhere and then we set about how we would do the funeral pyre. And in the end, I think we didn't set fire to the funeral pyre on location.

But it was placed there. We built it again on the back lot, set it on fire, and then it was all digitally put together at the end by the visual effects department. So how many people are you overseeing in the role that you have? I'm just, you know, it's hard to sort of fathom the scope and magnitude of a scale like House of the Dragon in terms of all of the details that you're talking about. It's pretty massive on the show like this. It's...

You know, my immediate art department, which is fronted by an enormously talented guy, Dominic Masters, who is my supervising art director. Under Dom, we have maybe a dozen art directors and many, many assistant art directors, draftspeople, all of whom are making their way through the department and eventually, hopefully, becoming production designers. And then alongside them is my equally talented set decorator, Claire Richards, who

with her department of maybe 25, 30 people. And then as you go down the layers, you know, the biggest department really is construction led by Malcolm Roberts. And at the peak of season one, I think we probably had just under 400 carpenters, plasterers, sculptors, painters,

So to service that huge department, the art department has to produce hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of technical drawings. Wow. So I design initially. I have a bunch of sketchbooks and then I have huge drawing pads. And those drawings and sketches are worked up into detailed plans. That goes then to the...

concept department and they work up all of my drawings into near realistic visuals which are then agreed by director and as I say that then becomes technical drawings much as it does in architecture so that we're producing scale drawings in immense detail from which the construction can build those pretty huge sets so it's a big operation on a movie like this on a show like this. For something like Driftmark

How far ahead do you have to be of production in order to get that up and running? You know, setting aside the planning and the design time. When do you start sending in the crews to start erecting some of the stuff that we see there? I think in the case of Driftmark, we built a big courtyard on the St. Michael's Mount Island. And I think the crew went in five weeks before we were actually shooting there.

So an art director went there with, I think, 30 construction crew, built what we needed for the scenes. And then there's a few days set dressing and then a day to rehearse and light and then shooting.

And I think it was probably three or four days shooting maximum. So again, it's a lengthy, lengthy process for a few minutes on the screen. Oh, my God. So and you say five weeks before production, but I mean, you say people are going in to start building, but that means all of those plans and everything have already been drawn up well before that. Absolutely. No, no. I think I began work on...

season one in late October, early November. Wow. And we were shooting six months later. Oh, my God. But we were building, you know, in the case of, say, the Red Keep composite set on big T stage at Leavesden Studios. That was a 16 week construction period and probably a 10 or 12, three months drawing period before that.

And then I think that was, I spent weeks designing that composite set because it was one of the biggest interior sets we were going to build on the season. Right. And I worked very closely, obviously, with Miguel and Ryan on how that should be.

Are you getting scripts or are you less concerned about exact scripts and more just having conversations with showrunners about what the locations and sets are necessary and then going from there? In the case of season one, I had a full set of scripts when I started. So, you know, 10 scripts an hour each is quite a lengthy read. So I think I spent the first 10 days really digesting all of that.

But in the case of season two, which I'm working on now, I came in very, very early to work alongside Ryan and the other writers. So I was being fed storylines and set lists of what may or may not be in the season. So I had quite a long time then to get ahead and design so that when we hit full pre-production, which is now several weeks ago, we were up and running very speedily.

It's so interesting having talked to Amanda Knight yesterday, too, because it feels like she said a similar thing about season two where it's like, oh, yeah, now that we're in the zone of all of it, now that we know how long it takes to get the wig on Matt, we can move so much more efficiently with the second season than we could with season one. Do you feel similarly then? I feel exactly the same as Amanda said. Yes. You know, we now have a shorthand with our directors and our showrunner, Ryan, who

And it moves. And I know the show now, so I'm familiar. I'm not having to research, you know, who was the king before Viserys and who's the daughter of Daemon and all those things. You know, it's a huge family and it's a huge dynasty. So we constantly have these family trees on the wall to remind us who is who. And not least how to pronounce their names. LAUGHTER

That's been an issue for us too. Yeah. So with something like Driftmark, you're on location. How do you take down the set and where does it go in the off time? Well, it comes back to the studios in Leavesden, Watford, where the Warner Brothers studio is here. And we try to recycle what we can, reuse parts of it in different ways. So it's not just skipped.

A lot of the sets we struck are kept for season two. And for example, in the case of Dragonstone, which was built on a temporary stage for season one because we ran out of stage space, that was what we called pack struck and kept. And then that will be rebuilt now on a proper sound stage. And that in that case, that's going to be hugely extended into a big composite equivalent to the Red Keep stage.

The Red Keep makes me think of that incredible one shot that comes after the time jump, episode six, when we see Rhaenyra give birth. Tell us about how that was laid out and how closely did you work with Miguel and Ryan in terms of creating that so that you could have that incredible walk and talk? I worked closely with Miguel on that. It was an ambition he had to do that kind of shot. And this was a two minute, 40 second shot

continuous Steadicam shot. I had designed the Red Keep initially as what we call a composite set,

meaning that all the areas can be connected geographically in real time if we want to do this, and specifically so that these kind of shots can be created. So it's a composite set on two levels. It took a long time to design this set because I had these kind of shots in mind. It's designed so that, you know, whichever way you look, you've got...

depth in the shot, provides the best lighting opportunities for all of our cinematographers, and you can accommodate those sort of long, steadicam shots which you're telling the story as you go through the journey of the castle.

So it's a big set and it offers multiple versions of that particular shot you referred to. I would love to talk a little bit about location scouting if you're up for it. I mean, you talked about, you know, obviously a lot of it comes down to whether or not you have permission to shoot at a certain place. But beyond the very practical matter of that, I would love to hear some of the criteria that you're using here.

I mean, what an amazing blank slate to have in terms of all the different places you can go. I imagine there are also a lot of complications to a lot of these locations as well. There are because, you know, a particular complication of season one was we were just coming out of the back of the pandemic. So we were scouting areas which were still no-go areas, really. So right at the very beginning, we had to slip in and out of these places again.

almost unnoticed because hotels were not open, restaurants were not open.

So we had this extra difficulty of scouting as much as we could without the normal facilities. But I think we got a lot out of Cornwall and Devon and then we went up into the Penan district of UK. And also, of course, it was established that we were going to shoot in Spain, in Spain and Portugal and two places called Cáceres and Trujillo. And we did a little bit near Barcelona.

So, yes, it is thrilling to put all that together to try and create one cohesive world out of multiple locations and multiple countries, really. Obviously, there's a big team to help me do that, notably a location team in this instance, fronted by a location manager called David Pinnington, who was well experienced in what was available and what was possible there.

So he brought to the table a whole pile of suggestions, and then we whittled it down to the ones which were most useful to us. I feel like Location Scout would be a pretty sweet job. I think it's a pretty enviable job. Yes, you get to jump in the car and scoot around and stay at hotels and peruse it. You mentioned architecture. You have a background in architecture. How did you make the transition to production work?

I left school quite young at the age of 17 without many qualifications, I have to say. And I got a job in an architect's office as a print boy. I'd always been fond of design. You know, as a kid, I was designing workshops for my dad and houses for my parents and model theaters. So somehow there was something in me which...

was attached to this world. And the architects began to train me as an architect. It was over a period of 12 years. But after three years, I got a job at the BBC in London. And I went there for six months as a trainee,

And I ended up staying there 15 years. So that was a beautiful experience, the BBC. And then I went freelance. You know, I had an opportunity to design a big drama for the BBC called The Singing Detective. I met a director, John Amiel, who then did a film in America. And he asked me to go. And then, you know, the career sort of takes off from that. And I think there are various...

in your life if you're lucky. So certainly the BBC was one for me and then The Crying Game and then Alfonso Cuaron invited me to do Children of Men. So that was another...

My favorite movie.

And then here we are now on a huge scale of House of the Dragons. So that's my trajectory in a few paragraphs. It's really amazing the variety of projects that you've worked on. How does your approach change from something like House of the Dragon, where you can kind of let your imagination run a little bit? No one's ever seen these particular castles or these sets, and it's a, you know...

rooted in a medieval milieu, but not realistic in any sense. And then something like Belfast, which is, you know, a period piece, a place that people recognize, or even Children of Men that is, you know, set in London for the most part, but, you know, a little bit into the future. How does your approach change for these kind of different projects? I think the key for me, Jason, is the script. You know, I have to connect with the script.

I never felt I'm doing a job just because it's a job. I always have to have some sort of emotional connection with the story. And I think that I can honestly say that's been true of everything I've done, really. You know, sometimes you do get scripts for

you know, big, big blockbuster kind of movies. But I have to feel there's a sort of heart and soul there. And so I usually pass on those sort of things. And I've kind of been lucky in the choices I've been able to make. And there was an emotional connection with House of the Dragon because it's an epic story. But I think it does connect with

lots of parts of history. Just before I first met Miguel and Ryan, again during lockdown, I'd read the Hilary Mantel trilogy about Thomas Cromwell. Yeah, wonderful. It was wonderful, yes. And somehow then I was sent the scripts for House of the Dragon and I felt this connection between the Mantel Cromwell trilogy and the world of the Targaryens.

And so, again, I had that emotional connection and that's why I wanted to do it. Plus, of course, it's big budget and big worlds to create. And the scripts were terrific. So that's why I jumped. This is maybe a slightly strange question, but it strikes me in architecture. You design the building. The building gets built by the crew. You can go see it. It's there for years and years and years. People live in it. But in this line of work, the stuff comes down. It gets taken apart. How do you feel about that?

I think it's something you'd get used to. In the reverse, in architecture, you may create a bad building and it's there forever. You have to drive past the damn thing every day on the way to work.

That makes sense. So I quickly got used to the fact that our Cephod, transitory, but somehow you do leave a footprint because when we did, well, I did a few things, Captain Corelli's Mandolin, for example, and we built this Italianate square in the middle of Cephalonia. People still go back to look for that town. And of course, it's not there. Oh, wow. Cephalonia is a 1960s contemporary town

And they all go about looking for this wonderful, ornate Italian architecture. So it's kind of thrilling. And I think this is certainly true of House of the Dragon, that people will go and search out the locations and places we've built on.

That's so cool. Do you find that you watch a TV show or a film differently than maybe your partner or your kids or something just because of the expertise you have? Yeah, I think it's inevitable because, you know, I'm looking for how things are done. And obviously, I'm looking at the production design and

You recognize some of the props sometimes. Really? Like what? Well, you know, if you're doing period drama in the UK, we have a bunch of prop houses where you can rent stuff. Oh, funny. Of course. You'll see an armchair or a sofa or a bed or something. You think, my God, I use that in Children of Men. Yeah.

Actually, I've been re-watching the first season of House of the Dragon, and it's a joy because suddenly I think I can watch for the third time and really enjoy it, enjoy the story. And I'm not dissecting my work and think, oh, I should have done that differently, or why did we use that certain color on that thing? So I'm watching it again and again and enjoying it more every time. So speaking of enjoying it and watching it, what team are you on? Ah, well...

I think I should be impartial, shouldn't I? I don't know. I don't think you have to be. Well, if you press me on that, I think I would be team green. Really? Wow. I think I'd be a Queen Alice and Hightower supporter because...

There she was, this poor woman thrust into this unenviable political position, not of her choosing. And I think she grows into that role with great wisdom and maturity. But she remains conflicted because, you know, did she really understand King Viserys's wishes regarding the accession to the throne? And she will forever be conflicted by this. It's going to haunt her forever. Yeah.

fascinating drama. I think you are the first person involved with the show that we've talked to who's Team Green. Is that true, Jason? Yeah. Everybody's Reneera, are they? Yes. Well, they either abstain or they go Team Black, yeah. And iconoclast Jim Clay. I love it. Well, Jim, thank you so much for joining us. Yes, thank you. Real pleasure.

Oh my gosh, Jason, what a treat. It's so much fun. Like these nerds, man, they're just such great nerds. It's just amazing to kind of try and wrap your head around the army of people that make this show happen. 400. I mean, and that's insane. Right? Construction crews working for weeks to build a set that they're going to tear down after three days. It's...

It's really amazing. Really, really amazing. It's truly, truly phenomenal. I loved that theme, too, that both of them kind of came to around, like, okay, we've really figured a lot out in season one, and it's all going to be a lot smoother in season two. Like, I just can't imagine how many, like, weird problems that they've had to solve over the course of those episodes. I know. What a way to earn a living. Yeah, right? It seems, you know, really, really fun. Yeah.

And then on another level, it's like I want to every time I go to a convention, a comics convention or Halloween rolls around, I need Amanda in my life. Yeah, I need I need some makeup. I need a costume. I need something. What would you get? What would you if you could have any kind of would you get scarred up? Like what would your what would your ask be? I have to say I am not a costume. Like I don't dress up for Halloween or anything. I'm like a super lame square person.

But I don't know. This year, I recently watched the Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie, which is so terrible. But that like floofy pink prom dress with the leather jacket, I think I just want those things. Christy Swanson. Yes. It's not hair or makeup. It's just that dress and that jacket.

And I guess what's his face on the motorcycle? I mean, that's an iconic look. Right? I just think it would be really fun. And a slayer. Like, how badass is that? It's pretty badass. So what about you? You want to go, like, full Viserys, don't you? You want his face to peel off. That would be actually really awesome. Like, no arm, poultice dried on my skin, no eye. Ugh.

half of my mouth gone, I think that would be really, really fun. And just like, just totter around. I want to show up to the Game of Thrones convention like that and just like take two hours to get to the stage. Oh my God. I was going to say, I want to play the music and I want you to do the whole entry. I'm here for it. That sounds great. Well, and speaking of conventions, Jason, I mean, this is something we could actually make reality. Listen, I'm just putting it out there.

Not in any kind of, you know, way that's a demand or anything. I'm just putting in, you know, I'm just saying, putting into the universe to see what happens. I think that's smart. For those of you who are curious, Game of Thrones FanCon is going to be at the Los Angeles Convention Center from December 9th to the 11th. We're

We're going to be there. We're going to be there. We're going to be doing a live episode. You can join us as an audience member if you're already going to FanCon. This will be the first official fan convention for the Game of Thrones franchise. And there is a panoply of talent that is going to be there. Yes, from both Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon. This is going to be really cool. That's right. Yeah. And yeah, we have learned...

that who's going to come. It's Matthew Needham, who plays Laris. Ever heard of him? And speaking of Viserys, we're going to have Paddy Considine there too, which is awesome. Ever heard of him? Oh my God. Also appearing, Tom Glyn Carney, a.k.a. Aegon the Elder. Have you ever heard of him? Ever heard of a fella named Kit Harington?

I love when enthusiasm verges into aggression from you, Jason. It's just like, okay, we're there. It happened. But yeah, it's going to be super fun. I mean, I am especially excited just because L.A. in December sounds great. It's snowing today in Chicago. I'm super over this entire situation. So let's all go to L.A. Let's go hang out. It's going to be 50 degrees. You're going to hear everybody complaining.

And it's going to be wonderful. Yeah, it's going to be awesome. Can't wait. Once again, we're going to be there recording a live episode of the podcast. Yes, we're doing the podcast taping, which is going to be awesome. We're also doing a bunch of panels, including a conversation with showrunner Ryan Condal, who will be joining us virtually. And he is going to show us a scene that no one has seen before. It didn't air on the show. So that's super cool, too. I can't wait. You know who he is? You ever heard of Ryan?

Get your tickets now. If you haven't got your tickets, you're going to be in L.A. You live in L.A. You're in the Southern California area. You would like to go to this convention. You can get your tickets now at GOTCon.events. That's all for this episode. Don't forget, we will be back in two weeks.

And we want to hear from you. Don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice and find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me on Twitter at NETW3RK. And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on Twitter and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max in collaboration with iHeartRadio. And this podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion and Greta Johnson.

Our executive producer is Molly Socha. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stillo. This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media. Special thanks, as always, to Michael Gluck-Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team, Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, Liz Keating, and Megan McLeod at HBO Marketing.